Mycenaean I9006 GEDmatch result

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Salamis31 (I9006): 1411 – 1262 calBCE (DEM-2905 (MAMS-25209), 3067 ± 25 bp). Child from Tomb 7, North side, group 34.
Kit Num: M209270

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 31.52
2 East_Med 29.71
3 West_Asian 17.19
4 Atlantic 12.83
5 North_Sea 7.50
6 Red_Sea 1.26

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 15.085685
2 Italian_Jewish @ 17.072384
3 Central_Greek @ 17.275263
4 East_Sicilian @ 17.329056
5 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.341629
6 West_Sicilian @ 18.132610
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.803028
8 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.887905
9 Tuscan @ 20.712919
10 Ashkenazi @ 20.962677
11 Greek @ 21.463858
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 21.806488
13 Cyprian @ 21.970829
14 Greek_Thessaly @ 22.175367
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.439657
16 North_Italian @ 25.903950
17 Sardinian @ 27.860203
18 Lebanese_Muslim @ 28.034370
19 Tunisian @ 28.895033
20 Turkish @ 29.000040

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian +50% Sardinian @ 6.938731

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian +25% Sardinian +25% Sardinian @ 6.938731

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Armenian + Cyprian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.563879
2 Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.818125
3 Armenian + Assyrian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.851804
4 Armenian + Armenian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.938731
5 Armenian + Lebanese_Christian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.957386
6 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.962664
7 Armenian + Lebanese_Muslim + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.097719
8 Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.374653
9 Assyrian + Assyrian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.425754
10 Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.433751
11 Armenian + Samaritan + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.479022
12 Armenian + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.512017
13 Assyrian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.573802
14 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.600214
15 Armenian + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.601357
16 Assyrian + Cyprian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.701864
17 Armenian + Sardinian + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 7.778791
18 Armenian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 7.808818
19 Georgian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.832108
20 Georgian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 7.833129

In 1995 a group of nine Mycenaean tombs were excavated in the modern town of Salamina, near the church of Ayia Kyriaki on Demosthenous street. These tombs formed part of a large chamber tomb cemetery investigated in the same area in 1965. That cemetery most probably belonged to the chief Late Helladic settlement on the island, the predecessor of historic Salamis. The osteological material sampled for analysis came from Tomb 7, which was partly destroyed by modern activity. The sample no. 31 came from secondary burials, i.e., human skeletons removed from their original position on the tomb floor and deposited, together with some of their grave goods, by the northwestern corner of the rock-cut chamber. In addition to a large number of clay vessels, the furnishings of the deceased included faience jewelry and some objects of bronze, indicating that the individuals buried in that tomb were wealthier than the average people, although they may not be viewed as members of a ruling elite, judging by the absence of any prestige items in the grave offerings. The ceramic finds associated with those burials dated to the 14th - 12th cents BC (LH IIIA-C), thereby demonstrating a continuous use of the tomb from the Palatial into the Post-palatial period of the Mycenaean civilization.

Secondary burials deposited by the northwestern corner of Tomb 7
https://i.imgur.com/7N0yPtn.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I had saved this on my computer before the kit was deleted, no-one posted this result with the oracle so I'm doing it now.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Useless. What haplogroups does it have?

[Marmara]

They were Jewish, proven.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Useless.
:(

What haplogroups does it have?
They did not tell in the paper, but gave this instead https://i.imgur.com/TVD1LAS.png

[catgeorge]

They were south europeans why is this fascinating news - look where greece is on the map.

greeks and italians are the closest match this should be no surprise.

[trebil]

Useless. What haplogroups does it have?

for the most part J2a

[Teucer]

So remind me again how Cypriots are simply Hellenised Levantines when this sample is pretty much exactly the same distance from mainland Greece as it is to Cyprus :rolleyes:

[Teucer]

They were south europeans why is this fascinating news - look where greece is on the map.

greeks and italians are the closest match this should be no surprise.

What do you think about the close matches with Jewish populations?

[catgeorge]

What do you think about the close matches with Jewish populations?

I wasnt aware Jewish was an ethnicity - is there one for Catholic and Orthodox?

[Teucer]

I wasnt aware Jewish was an ethnicity - is there one for Catholic and Orthodox?

Forgive me, I didn't realise Mycenaeans were closely related to North Africans

[catgeorge]

Forgive me, I didn't realise Mycenaeans were closely related to North Africans

Well they're not really - they are loosely related but saying closely related is a bit of a fetch. The composition is Mediterannean basin and Jews are over represented in these DNA results. Because they are made by Jews.

[trebil]

Forgive me, I didn't realise Mycenaeans were closely related to North Africans

they are distant from anyone, first it's south italian @ 15, they were not closely related to north africans, tunisians are @ 28

[Teucer]

they are distant from anyone, first it's south italian @ 15, they were not closely related to north africans, tunisians are @ 28

I know, but CatGeorge was ignoring the matches with Jewish populations so I rephrased my question to their respective regions instead.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 15.085685
2 Italian_Jewish @ 17.072384
3 Central_Greek @ 17.275263
4 East_Sicilian @ 17.329056
5 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.341629
6 West_Sicilian @ 18.132610
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.803028
8 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.887905
9 Tuscan @ 20.712919
10 Ashkenazi @ 20.962677
11 Greek @ 21.463858
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 21.806488
13 Cyprian @ 21.970829
14 Greek_Thessaly @ 22.175367
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.439657
16 North_Italian @ 25.903950
17 Sardinian @ 27.860203
18 Lebanese_Muslim @ 28.034370
19 Tunisian @ 28.895033
20 Turkish @ 29.000040

[catgeorge]

I know, but CatGeorge was ignoring the matches with Jewish populations so I rephrased my question to their respective regions instead.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 15.085685
2 Italian_Jewish @ 17.072384
3 Central_Greek @ 17.275263
4 East_Sicilian @ 17.329056
5 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.341629
6 West_Sicilian @ 18.132610
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.803028
8 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.887905
9 Tuscan @ 20.712919
10 Ashkenazi @ 20.962677
11 Greek @ 21.463858
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 21.806488
13 Cyprian @ 21.970829
14 Greek_Thessaly @ 22.175367
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.439657
16 North_Italian @ 25.903950
17 Sardinian @ 27.860203
18 Lebanese_Muslim @ 28.034370
19 Tunisian @ 28.895033
20 Turkish @ 29.000040

Yes I always ignore Jewish results as they are over represented and a religion being the basis of a DNA result is rather weird like Jews.

I look for Ashkenazi and Sephardic thats it - everything else is bullshit.

[trebil]

I know, but CatGeorge was ignoring the matches with Jewish populations so I rephrased my question to their respective regions instead.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 15.085685
2 Italian_Jewish @ 17.072384
3 Central_Greek @ 17.275263
4 East_Sicilian @ 17.329056
5 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.341629
6 West_Sicilian @ 18.132610
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.803028
8 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.887905
9 Tuscan @ 20.712919
10 Ashkenazi @ 20.962677
11 Greek @ 21.463858
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 21.806488
13 Cyprian @ 21.970829
14 Greek_Thessaly @ 22.175367
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.439657
16 North_Italian @ 25.903950
17 Sardinian @ 27.860203
18 Lebanese_Muslim @ 28.034370
19 Tunisian @ 28.895033
20 Turkish @ 29.000040


At the time of the Mycenaeans the Jews were more like the Mizrahi Jews, but they were not similar to Italian_Jewish, Sephardic_Jewish and Ashkenazi Jews. These groups did not exist yet.

Italian_Jewish are Italkim, Jews who live in Italy since Ancient Rome, they mixed with Italians.

Algerian_Jewish and Tunisian_Jewish are the same of Sephardic_Jewish, they are all Sephardic.

Ashkenazi

Ashkenazi in British
(ˌæʃkəˈnɑːzɪ )

1. of or relating to the Jews of Germany and E Europe
2. a Jew of German or E European descent


Sephardi in American
(səˈfɑrdi ; səfärˈdē; səˌfɑrˈdi ; səfärˌdēˈ)

1. a member of the group of Jews that lived in Spain and Portugal before the Inquisition and, after expulsion, in the Ottoman Empire, Middle East, and N Africa
2. a descendant of this group

[Teucer]

At the time of the Mycenaeans the Jews were more like the Mizrahi Jews, but they were not similar to Italian_Jewish, Sephardic_Jewish and Ashkenazi Jews. They did not exist yet.

Of course, but clearly the admixture of modern Jewish populations is similar to that of this Mycenaean sample. That must mean something

[Sikeliot]

I suspect this result is similar to what Bell Beaker Sicilians (and Sicanians of Sicily/Malta) were like.

[Sikeliot]

They're basically similar to modern Sicilians but with more West Med/Sardinian and less SW ASian

[trebil]

Of course, but clearly the admixture of modern Jewish populations is similar to that of this Mycenaean sample. That must mean something

Not all the Mycenaeans were similar, at least those who were uploaded on gedmatch.

If it must mean something it means that Mycenaeans were part of a mediterranean continuum, Indo-Europeans mingled completely with the Mediterranean populations, and they were not nordic gods from the Valhalla as claimed by some nordicist who tries to ennoble his ethnicity and who does not accept that European civilization was born in the Mediterranean sea.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

They were south europeans why is this fascinating news - look where greece is on the map.

greeks and italians are the closest match this should be no surprise.

This was great news and surprise in August, after all the bs they wrote about ancient Greeks in the 19th and 20th centuries.


What do you think about the close matches with Jewish populations?

Jews are a mixed population.


they are distant from anyone, first it's south italian @ 15, they were not closely related to north africans, tunisians are @ 28

The difference between south Italian and this sample is that south Italian has more Baltic and Red_Sea and considerably less West_Med

[Aren]

Look at that low Red Sea. Mycenaeans were an Anatolian_N + CHG mix, with minor Steppe. Nothing Levantine at all.

[trebil]

Look at that low Red Sea. Mycenaeans were a Anatolian_N + CHG mix, with minor Steppe. Nothing Levantine at all.

What is the ancient sample source of Red Sea?

[Teucer]

Look at that low Red Sea. Mycenaeans were a Anatolian_N + CHG mix, with minor Steppe. Nothing Levantine at all.

East med? West Asian?

[trebil]

East med? West Asian?

East Med is already present in Early European Farmers, and West Asian is CHG-like.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

They're basically similar to modern Sicilians but with more West Med/Sardinian and less SW ASian

Yea indeed, South_Italian compared to Mycenaeans has generally more Baltic, West_Asian, Red_Sea, a little bit more of North_Sea and less Atlantic, West_Med, East_Med.
But Mycenaeans were from Greece, not from Sicily. We should compare them to Greeks. Here is a Peloponnesian vs a Mycenaean:
https://i.imgur.com/0tCUF63.png

[Teucer]

East Med is already present in Early European Farmers, and West Asian is CHG-like.

Yeah, and it is also heavily present in Levantine populations, so it is wrong to say there is no relationship at all.

E.g

Lebanese:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.63
2 West_Asian 20.51
3 West_Med 12.01
4 Red_Sea 10.69
5 North_Sea 5.04
6 Atlantic 4.95
7 Eastern_Euro 2.92
8 Northeast_African 2.3
9 Siberian 1.28
10 South_Asian 0.86
11 Oceanian 0.81

[trebil]

Yeah, and it is also heavily present in Levantine populations, so it is wrong to say there is no relationship at all.

E.g

Lebanese:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.63
2 West_Asian 20.51
3 West_Med 12.01
4 Red_Sea 10.69
5 North_Sea 5.04
6 Atlantic 4.95
7 Eastern_Euro 2.92
8 Northeast_African 2.3
9 Siberian 1.28
10 South_Asian 0.86
11 Oceanian 0.81


Then the same can be said also for West_Med, Atlantic, Eastern_Euro, North_Sea.

[Petalpusher]

Look at that low Red Sea. Mycenaeans were a Anatolian_N + CHG mix, with minor Steppe. Nothing Levantine at all.

They were indeed just farmers that didn't migrate to Europe as deeply and as early then got some "southern steppe" influence as a result for sticking around in the region. Trying to find similarities with modern population is a bit pointless since they predate them.


What is the ancient sample source of Red Sea?

Mostly basal Eurasian, no sample yet and maybe we ll never get it, really old and complicated to find. Modern peak is Saudi for "Red_Sea"

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yeah, and it is also heavily present in Levantine populations, so it is wrong to say there is no relationship at all.

E.g

Lebanese:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.63
2 West_Asian 20.51
3 West_Med 12.01
4 Red_Sea 10.69
5 North_Sea 5.04
6 Atlantic 4.95
7 Eastern_Euro 2.92
8 Northeast_African 2.3
9 Siberian 1.28
10 South_Asian 0.86
11 Oceanian 0.81

East_Med peaks in native peoples of the Arabian peninsula, Druzes and Yemenite Jews. However in Mycenaeans it can be slightly higher or lower than in south Italians. Basically if a Sicilian or Greek man fuck a Sardinian woman they give birth to a little ancient Greek ;) Nah just kidding, I'm talking shit.

[trebil]

Mostly basal Eurasian, no sample yet and maybe we ll never get it, really old and complicated to find. Modern peak is Saudi for "Red_Sea"

Thanks, very useful. Do Natufians score some red sea? So it's basal Eurasian also in their case, right?

[Kamal900]

Which tells us quite well that they are more middle eastern shifted than their modern day counterparts which proves that the ancient west Asian admixture among the Greeks today is ancient and not recent as what people like to claim.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Thanks, very useful. Do Natufians score some red sea? So it's basal Eurasian also in their case, right?

Natufians scored 37% Red_Sea.

[Sikeliot]

Which tells us quite well that they are more middle eastern shifted than their modern day counterparts which proves that the ancient west Asian admixture among the Greeks today is ancient and not recent as what people like to claim.

Greeks got more Slavic if anything.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Which tells us quite well that they are more middle eastern shifted than their modern day counterparts which proves that the ancient west Asian admixture among the Greeks today is ancient and not recent as what people like to claim.

They are not Middle Eastern shifted at all.

[Petalpusher]

Thanks, very useful. Do Natufians score some red sea? So it's basal Eurasian also in their case, right?

Yea the Natufian sample score 37% Red_Sea wich is more than the modern peak, but it's a complicated thought process since we are dealing with an element that is possibly up to 50ky old or more and in reality everything is basal Eurasian, it just became eventually something else at some point through many thousands of years. Europeans diverged probably at least 75% of this really old basal Eurasian branch that split out with ENA, eventhough today most of it had time to morph into some other elements, and this inital element is more like 25% to 50% from north to south Europe. It's more a matter of how far back you set your point to evaluate it.

[Kamal900]

Greeks got more Slavic if anything.

Um, the Slavic admixture among Greeks is weak and not that significant, lol. The same can be said about the Albanian too.

[Sikeliot]

Yea indeed, South_Italian compared to Mycenaeans has generally more Baltic, West_Asian, Red_Sea, a little bit more of North_Sea and less Atlantic, West_Med, East_Med.
But Mycenaeans were from Greece, not from Sicily. We should compare them to Greeks. Here is a Peloponnesian vs a Mycenaean:
https://i.imgur.com/0tCUF63.png


They are likely close to Sicanians from sicily of the same era. And they're closer to modern Sicilians than to modern Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

Um, the Slavic admixture among Greeks is weak and not that significant, lol. The same can be said about the Albanian too.

Then how do you explain modern Greeks not plotting near Mycenaeans and having very different ratios?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Greeks got more Slavic if anything.

Yes but that Slavic influence is often exaggerated in this forum.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

They are likely close to Sicanians from sicily of the same era. And they're closer to modern Sicilians than to modern Greeks.

Sadly we do not have any ancient DNA from south Italy so we can't state that.

[trebil]

Which tells us quite well that they are more middle eastern shifted than their modern day counterparts which proves that the ancient west Asian admixture among the Greeks today is ancient and not recent as what people like to claim.

Rather the opposite, Mycenaeans were more Neolithic/EEF shifted.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Rather the opposite, Mycenaeans were more Neolithic/EEF shifted.

Yes, exactly.

[Aren]

Yeah, and it is also heavily present in Levantine populations, so it is wrong to say there is no relationship at all.

E.g

Lebanese:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 38.63
2 West_Asian 20.51
3 West_Med 12.01
4 Red_Sea 10.69
5 North_Sea 5.04
6 Atlantic 4.95
7 Eastern_Euro 2.92
8 Northeast_African 2.3
9 Siberian 1.28
10 South_Asian 0.86
11 Oceanian 0.81

There's no levantine population without a significant Red Sea/SW Asian input. East Med has been found in middle-neolithic samples as far north as Scandinavia. Levantines(all Semitics basically) on the other hand have gotten their Red Sea + East med mostly from neolithic Levantines, not from Anatolian farmers, although there is an Anatolian input in all of Mideast aswell. So ofc there's a relationship, but Myceneaens didn't have Bronze Age or even Neolithic input from the Levant, because of the almost non-existent Red Sea component.
They were Anatolian derived with late Bronze Age Steppe + additional CHG admix.

[Kamal900]

Then how do you explain modern Greeks not plotting near Mycenaeans and having very different ratios?

Due on the fact that Greeks later on mixed with other Southern Europeans, perhaps? That could be the case.

[Kamal900]

There's no levantine population without a significant Red Sea/SW Asian input. East Med has been found in middle-neolithic samples as far north as Scandinavia. Levantines(all Semitics basically) on the other hand have gotten their Red Sea + East med mostly from neolithic Levantines, not from Anatolian farmers, although there is an Anatolian input in all of Mideast aswell. So ofc there's a relationship, but Myceneaens didn't have Bronze Age or even Neolithic input from the Levant, because of the almost non-existent Red Sea component.
They were Anatolian derived with late Bronze Age Steppe + additional CHG admix.

Well, my east-Med is around 39.82 while randomguy's around 41%. I think it is Levantine for the most part since the people there score the highest.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Well, my east-Med is around 39.82 while randomguy's around 41%. I think it is Levantine for the most part since the people there score the highest.

If you are more than 37% East_Med, you are a Levantine.

[Tauromachos]

Yes but that Slavic influence is often exaggerated in this forum.

About at least 70% of todays Greeks "wether Mainland,Islands or West Anatolia" ancestry is still Mycanean like
this has been shown by professional studies on the matter not by Gedmatch science.

The other populations closest to Mycaneans except of Mainstream Greeks are Italians,Albanians and of course Greek Cypriots.

All other populations wether it is Levantines,other parts of Europeans are further off.

About the Levant it has to be mentioned that Mycanean Greeks colonized in parts of todays Palestine and Isreal and of course had an
genetic impact on the native populations there.

But both Minoans and Mycaneans were different from native Semitic people and Hamitic Egyptians.

They had more relations with Anatolia,Caucasu and Iran

[Aren]

Well, my east-Med is around 39.82 while randomguy's around 41%. I think it is Levantine for the most part since the people there score the highest.

I score almost more than you heh. But it peakes in Levantine Jews. Iraqi and Syrian Jews get over 50%.

[Teucer]

About at least 70% of todays Greeks "wether Mainland,Islands or West Anatolia" ancestry is still Mycanean like
this has been shown by professional studies on the matter not by Gedmatch science.

The other populations closest to Mycaneans except of Mainstream Greeks are Italians,Albanians and of course Greek Cypriots.

All other populations wether it is Levantines,other parts of Europeans are further off.

About the Levant it has to be mentioned that Mycanean Greeks colonized in parts of todays Palestine and Isreal and of course had an
genetic impact on the native populations there.

But both Minoans and Mycaneans were different from native Semitic people and Hamitic Egyptians.

They had more relations with Anatolia,Caucasu and Iran

Admixture from Anatolia and the Caucasus is probably why they match with Jewish populations then. That's the determinate factor

[Teucer]

I'm not saying they were Semitic, all I'm saying is there is clearly some ancestry common between Mycenaeans and Jews, and as you said, it is more likely from the Caucasus and not the Levant

[Tauromachos]

I'm not saying they were Semitic, all I'm saying is there is clearly some ancestry common between Mycenaeans and Jews, and as you said, it is more likely from the Caucasus and not the Levant

If you want to understand how Jews and Greeks relate this might be also interesting it was written by a person who was Jewish himself.


(https://www.scribd.com/doc/309363407/Joseph-Yahuda-Hebrew-is-Greek-pdf)


https://www.scribd.com/doc/309363407/Joseph-Yahuda-Hebrew-is-Greek-pdf

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I'm not saying they were Semitic, all I'm saying is there is clearly some ancestry common between Mycenaeans and Jews, and as you said, it is more likely from the Caucasus and not the Levant

Keep in mind this is the most southern-shifted of all 4 Mycenaean samples, the best quality one was Galatas4, which also plotted right in the middle of the 4 samples:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.38
2 West_Med 28.12
3 Atlantic 22.29
4 West_Asian 9.7
5 North_Sea 7.39
6 Red_Sea 1.11

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 12.79
2 South_Italian 13.99
3 Algerian_Jewish 14.6
4 Italian_Jewish 14.85
5 Tuscan 14.98
6 Italian_Abruzzo 15.67
7 East_Sicilian 15.98
8 Sephardic_Jewish 16.1
9 Central_Greek 16.34
10 Greek 18.07
11 North_Italian 18.29
12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.11
13 Ashkenazi 19.35
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.04
15 Libyan_Jewish 21.32
16 Spanish_Andalucia 21.81
17 Cyprian 22.21
18 Sardinian 23.14
19 Spanish_Murcia 23.34
20 Spanish_Extremadura 23.5

I copied this from an old thread of Sikeliot cause I did not save the results back then.

[Teucer]

Keep in mind this is the most southern-shifted of all 4 Mycenaean samples, the best quality one was Galatas4, which also plotted right in the middle of the 4 samples:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.38
2 West_Med 28.12
3 Atlantic 22.29
4 West_Asian 9.7
5 North_Sea 7.39
6 Red_Sea 1.11

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 12.79
2 South_Italian 13.99
3 Algerian_Jewish 14.6
4 Italian_Jewish 14.85
5 Tuscan 14.98
6 Italian_Abruzzo 15.67
7 East_Sicilian 15.98
8 Sephardic_Jewish 16.1
9 Central_Greek 16.34
10 Greek 18.07
11 North_Italian 18.29
12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.11
13 Ashkenazi 19.35
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.04
15 Libyan_Jewish 21.32
16 Spanish_Andalucia 21.81
17 Cyprian 22.21
18 Sardinian 23.14
19 Spanish_Murcia 23.34
20 Spanish_Extremadura 23.5

I copied this from an old thread of Sikeliot cause I did not save the results back then.

It is all interesting nonetheless. Thanks for keeping the results and posting the thread

[Tauromachos]

Modern Maniot Greek's gedmatch"From outer Mani close to Kalamata"
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.69
2 Central_Greek 3.9
3 West_Sicilian 3.92
4 Italian_Abruzzo 4.98
5 South_Italian 5.49
6 Ashkenazi 6.15
7 Greek_Thessaly 7.23
8 Tuscan 9.29
9 Italian_Jewish 10.32
10 Sephardic_Jewish 10.75
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.9
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.8
13 Libyan_Jewish 15.42
14 North_Italian 15.67
15 Bulgarian 15.9
16 Romanian 17.83
17 Cyprian 18.08
18 Lebanese_Muslim 21.55
19 Serbian 21.81
20 Turkish 22.59

[Haider]

Then the same can be said also for West_Med, Atlantic, Eastern_Euro, North_Sea.

Because that's a Muslim result. West Med is native to the region since Natufians scored around 20% of it. But the North European components are most likely Crusader input which decreased the native East Med among Muslims. Christians score up to 50% East Med.

[Astarte]

.....

[Tauromachos]

I don't think he's a cheater nor a liar, he seems convinced. He strikes me as a sect leader, desperate for converts.

I would like to know how much bugs he gets payed each week by his supervisor in the professional Troll factory he is working

https://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/troll-factories/

Of course you find only references about Russian troll factories.;)

But if there are Russian troll factories you can be sure the West and Jews have also theirs

[Astarte]

I would like to know how much bugs he gets payed each week by his supervisor in the professional Troll factory he is working

https://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/troll-factories/


That's interesting, thanks for sharing!

[Haider]

There's no levantine population without a significant Red Sea/SW Asian input. East Med has been found in middle-neolithic samples as far north as Scandinavia. Levantines(all Semitics basically) on the other hand have gotten their Red Sea + East med mostly from neolithic Levantines, not from Anatolian farmers, although there is an Anatolian input in all of Mideast aswell. So ofc there's a relationship, but Myceneaens didn't have Bronze Age or even Neolithic input from the Levant, because of the almost non-existent Red Sea component.
They were Anatolian derived with late Bronze Age Steppe + additional CHG admix.

Yes, especially considering Red Sea was much higher among Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Levantines. Red Sea was only decreased to present day levels during Canaanite times, when Mesopotamian invasions were frequent in the region, most likely Hurrians. So the Red Sea decreased, and the West Asian showed up.

[Sikeliot]

I would like to know how much bugs he gets payed each week by his supervisor in the professional Troll factory he is working

https://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/troll-factories/

Of course you find only references about Russian troll factories.;)

But if there are Russian troll factories you can be sure the West and Jews have also theirs

Please stop spreading false information about me. You're lucky I let you back on the forum after your behavior toward me before.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Modern Maniot Greek's gedmatch"From outer Mani close to Kalamata"
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.69
2 Central_Greek 3.9
3 West_Sicilian 3.92
4 Italian_Abruzzo 4.98
5 South_Italian 5.49
6 Ashkenazi 6.15
7 Greek_Thessaly 7.23
8 Tuscan 9.29
9 Italian_Jewish 10.32
10 Sephardic_Jewish 10.75
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.9
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.8
13 Libyan_Jewish 15.42
14 North_Italian 15.67
15 Bulgarian 15.9
16 Romanian 17.83
17 Cyprian 18.08
18 Lebanese_Muslim 21.55
19 Serbian 21.81
20 Turkish 22.59

Very interesting result, could he be partly Cretan?

[Tauromachos]

Very interesting result, could he be partly Cretan?

Or simply Maniot

Why should native Maniots without foreign admixtures be that different from Cretans?


he Maniot dialect of Modern Greek has several archaic properties that distinguishes it from most mainstream varieties. One of them, shared with the highly divergent Tsakonian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language) as well as with the old dialects spoken around Athens until the 19th century, is the divergent treatment of historical /y/ (written <υ>). Although this sound merged to /i/ everywhere else, these dialects have /u/ instead (e.g. [ˈksulo] versus standard [ˈksilo] 'wood').[79] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#cite_note-Trudgill5-83) These varieties are thought to be relic areas of a previously larger areal dialect group that used to share these features and was later divided by the penetration of Arvanitika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika) settlement in much of its area in the late Middle Ages.
Other features of the Maniot dialect include the palatalization of velar consonants, i.e. the realization of /k, ɡ, x, ɣ/ as ([tɕ, dʑ] or [ɕ, ʑ] before /i, e, j/. This feature is shared with many southern dialects of Greek, especially Cretan.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Or simply Maniot

Why should native Maniots without foreign admixtures be that different from Cretans?

The results I saw from Peloponnesus were all different from that one you posted, so I thought he was partly Crean (they plot close to Sicily). If he's fully from Mani then he's closer to Italians than Greeks.

[Tauromachos]

The results I saw from Peloponnesus were all different from that one you posted, so I thought he was partly Crean (they plot close to Sicily). If he's fully from Mani then he's closer to Italians than Greeks.


Here is Korinthian Greek's result
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.39
2 Italian_Abruzzo 3.7
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 4.27
4 Italian_Sicilian 5.47
5 Greek_Thessaly 7.36
6 Albanian 7.99
7 Sephardic_Jew 9.23
8 Kosovar 9.26
9 Italian_Tuscan 9.76
10 Bulgarian 13.99
11 Macedonian 14.4
12 Italian_Bergamo 15.73
13 Turkish 15.87
14 Romanian 16.28
15 Montenegrin 17.06
16 Cypriot 17.14
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.66
18 Turkish_Kayseri 18.48

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWRUvR187Y

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AElujWmibSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AElujWmibSY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AufQINNTbNc

[Aren]

Or simply Maniot

Why should native Maniots without foreign admixtures be that different from Cretans?

But I have been told mainland Greeks are slavs?

[Sikeliot]

Very interesting result, could he be partly Cretan?

Some Cretans plot north of that person even.

[Tauromachos]

Some Cretans plot north of that person even.

There were some Maniots also who plottet South from the Sicilian samples used in the Stamoyannopoulos study.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUWRUvR187Y

Some Italiot songs: can you understand their dialect?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKsZVDVNEs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FoAzUKD-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xok4nN2_a2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hDTK0HCi44

[Tauromachos]

Some Italiot songs: can you understand their dialect?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKsZVDVNEs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FoAzUKD-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xok4nN2_a2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hDTK0HCi44


Yes at least 60% i understand.

Feggari"Moon" is the same with the mainstream Greek word.

Kalinifta in Mainstream Greek is Kalinichta and means Good night.

This is a Greek song somehow similar in style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3Xz4Ri-GA

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes at least 60% i understand.

Feggari"Moon" is the same with the mainstream Greek word.

Kalinifta in Mainstream Greek is Kalinichta and means Good night.

This is a Greek song somehow similar in style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3Xz4Ri-GA

Some other stuff in Griko:
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/i-canti/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-popolare/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-dautore/

[Tauromachos]

Some other stuff in Griko:
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/i-canti/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-popolare/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-dautore/

Greeks from Salento singing in Greek tv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk4e8zBT3Nw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEnXofmPOwQ
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?230220-%26%23927%3B%26%23953%3B-%26%23917%3B%26%23955%3B%26%23955%3B%26%23951%3B%2 6%23957%3B%26%23949%3B%26%23962%3B-%26%23964%3B%26%23951%3B%26%23962%3B-%26%23954%3B%26%23945%3B%26%23964%3B%26%23969%3B-%26%23921%3B%26%23964%3B%26%23945%3B%26%23955%3B%2 6%23953%3B%26%23945%3B%26%23962%3B-quot-The-Greeks-of-Southern-Italy-quot

[Lavrentis]

I had saved this on my computer before the kit was deleted, no-one posted this result with the oracle so I'm doing it now.

What happened to the other kits? Were they deleted as well?


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[Ajeje Brazorf]

What happened to the other kits? Were they deleted as well?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They were all deleted and I don't know why.
M665102
M866617
M472594
M209270

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF1d-oFiOhA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s24ZEZVEx4

[Ajeje Brazorf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF1d-oFiOhA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s24ZEZVEx4

It'd be great if we had some Griko GEDmatch kit.

[Sikeliot]

It'd be great if we had some Griko GEDmatch kit.

APULian Griko are close to other apulians. CAlabrese Griko are close to people in Reggio Calabria but bottlenecked.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

APULian Griko are close to other apulians. CAlabrese Griko are close to people in Reggio Calabria but bottlenecked.

Many Apulians and many Calabrians are actually people who 60, 100, or 150 years ago abandoned Greek in favor of the Latin dialect, so I think there's no ethnic difference between Greek and Latin speakers.

[Sikeliot]

Many Apulians and many Calabrians are actually people who 60, 100, or 150 years ago abandoned Greek in favor of the Latin dialect, so I think there's no ethnic difference between Greek and Latin speakers.

That is true. But the calabrese Griko have remained very isolated because of geography and the mountains there. I think they're more distinct than Apulian Griko are.

[Kouros]

But I have been told mainland Greeks are slavs?

By who? Sikeliot, Albanians, and FYROMskis...?

[Kouros]

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 31.52
2 East_Med 29.71
3 West_Asian 17.19
4 Atlantic 12.83
5 North_Sea 7.50
6 Red_Sea 1.26


Mine for comparison -- I have practically the exact same West_Asian, Atlantic, and close North_Sea and Red_Sea amounts but the Mycenaean is over 1.5x as (East and West) Mediterranean as I am.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 17.93
2 West_Med 17.68
3 West_Asian 17.37
4 North_Sea 12.36
5 Atlantic 11.75
6 Baltic 10.22
7 Eastern_Euro 8.97
8 Red_Sea 3.72

I imagine someone who is 65% Sardinian and 35% Anatolian Greek to be the closest you can get to the Mycenaeans with modern populations. Which is funny because users on here spread the most disinformation I've ever seen about Anatolian Greeks.

[Kamal900]

If you are more than 37% East_Med, you are a Levantine.

Which I am(I'm a Palestinian btw).

[Lek]

Mine for comparison -- I have practically the exact same West_Asian, Atlantic, and close North_Sea and Red_Sea amounts but the Mycenaean is over 1.5x as (East and West) Mediterranean as I am.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 17.93
2 West_Med 17.68
3 West_Asian 17.37
4 North_Sea 12.36
5 Atlantic 11.75
6 Baltic 10.22
7 Eastern_Euro 8.97
8 Red_Sea 3.72

I imagine someone who is 65% Sardinian and 35% Anatolian Greek to be the closest you can get to the Mycenaeans with modern populations. Which is funny because users on here spread the most disinformation I've ever seen about Anatolian Greeks.

Myceneans weren't mixed similar as the historic Balkan populations that emerged after.

After Myceneans followed for example the Dorian invasion which could explain the differences.

This is why Islanders appear as closer or in the middle. They weren't affected as much by these different invasions as the mainlanders.

[Kouros]

Myceneans weren't mixed similar as the historic Balkan populations that emerged after.

After Myceneans followed for example the Dorian invasion which could explain the differences.

Of course

[Tauromachos]

Myceneans weren't mixed similar as the historic Balkan populations that emerged after.

After Myceneans followed for example the Dorian invasion which could explain the differences.

Or it could not
There was no Dorian invasion in reality

This is a Maniot result and it is closer to Mycanaean than Kouros
1 East_Med 30.64
2 West_Med 21.54
3 North_Atlantic 19.25
4 West_Asian 12
5 Baltic 10.27
6 Red_Sea 4.67
7 Northeast_African 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.08

[Lek]

Of course

Well, that is atleast my explanation ;)

There were some other ancient migrations it seems later on from the North rather than just Slavic.

[Kamal900]

I score almost more than you heh. But it peakes in Levantine Jews. Iraqi and Syrian Jews get over 50%.

Welcome to the family son:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oE9lJztY_ww/U4NRQGha1DI/AAAAAAAAAcM/x9uAW0hMsa4/s1600/Traditional+dress+in+Lebanon.jpg

[Sikeliot]

There were some other ancient migrations it seems later on from the North rather than just Slavic.

It is probably Indo-European then.

The reason Mycenaeans seem to be able to be modeled as Sicilian + Sardinian, is because neither Sicilians nor Sardinians have a lot of Indo European admixture (and modern Greeks, by contrast, have more than Sicilians, Sardinians, or Mycenaeans). Only some of it is Slavic, but in some parts of Greece it is not common sense to deny Slavs have played at least some role.

I wouldn't discount Celtic input in the Peloponnese also.

[Lek]

Or it could not
There was no Dorian invasion in reality

This is a Maniot result and it is closer to Mycanaean than Kouros
1 East_Med 30.64
2 West_Med 21.54
3 North_Atlantic 19.25
4 West_Asian 12
5 Baltic 10.27
6 Red_Sea 4.67
7 Northeast_African 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.08


What calculator is this and are these average Greek results?

[Kouros]

Or it could not
There was no Dorian invasion in reality

Perhaps not an 'invasion' but there was some kind of settlement/migration that would explain the appearance of the Dorians

[Lavrentis]

It is probably Indo-European then.

The reason Mycenaeans seem to be able to be modeled as Sicilian + Sardinian, is because neither Sicilians nor Sardinians have a lot of Indo European admixture (and modern Greeks, by contrast, have more than Sicilians, Sardinians, or Mycenaeans). Only some of it is Slavic, but in some parts of Greece it is not common sense to deny Slavs have played at least some role.

I wouldn't discount Celtic input in the Peloponnese also.

Aren’t Greeks a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians? Dorians had tons of Indo-European DNA and they were the ones that spread it to Greece.


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[Sikeliot]

What calculator is this and are these average Greek results?

Eurogenes K13 or K15. That result is not typical for the mainland, it is closer to Cretans and Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

Aren’t Greeks a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians? Dorians had tons of Indo-European DNA and they were the ones that spread it to Greece.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, but there would also be increased Slavic in the north, and some Italian in the south and on the islands. And whatever Albanian input exists.

[Lek]

Perhaps not an 'invasion' but there was some kind of settlement/migration that would explain the appearance of the Dorians

I saw in another thread some of these other Mycenean samples were quite Northern unless I'm getting it wrong. Need to check again.

[Tauromachos]

What calculator is this and are these average Greek results?

Look its very simple

There are peer reviewed studies comparing the DNA of Mycanean Greeks with modern Greeks and neighbouring people and also
with Minoans of Crete.

I already posted some links in this thread.

Roughly about 70% of todays Greeks DNA"Mainlanders and Islanders" is Mycanaean like.
Other people similar to Mycanaeans are Italians,Cypriots and Albanians"South Balkanians"

Mycaneans already shifted slightly North from the Minoans in Crete about 10-16%

There are no samples of distinct Dorian DNA
and scientist couldn't find signs of some inlfux or signifcant alteration of the Ancient Greek DNA prior and post the so called Dorian time.
Dorians were a classic Greek tribe along with Ionians,Acheans,Aeolians.

The traced their ancestry from Hellen son of Deukalion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen

Thus they were Hellenic people not Germanic,Slavic,Balkanic or something else

This doesn't exclude the possibility that they might have partially mixed with other people such as Scythians or Thracian and that they could have carried additional
admixture that was absent in other Hellenic groups.

But the idiot assumption that they were an alien people or a different race than for example Ionian Greeks is pure crap.

As i can also not find any reference from Ancient Greek writers Athenians or others that Dorians looked different or more Northern.

[Sikeliot]

I would also like to point out MODERN mainland Greeks score Levantines higher on their Oracles than did Mycenaeans. Even though it is not close. Mycenaeans were not Levant-like at all.

[Sikeliot]

I saw in another thread some of these other Mycenean samples were quite Northern unless I'm getting it wrong. Need to check again.

They are almost like a mixture of Sicilians and Sardinians.. they shift WEST not north.

[Lavrentis]

I would also like to point out MODERN mainland Greeks score Levantines higher on their Oracles than did Mycenaeans. Even though it is not close. Mycenaeans were not Levant-like at all.

Myceaneans were more Anatolian-like than modern mainland Greeks, right?


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[Kouros]

Aren’t Greeks a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians? Dorians had tons of Indo-European DNA and they were the ones that spread it to Greece.

Source of steppe in the Dorians was probably similar to what it is in the bronze/iron age Montenegrin samples

http://polishgenes.blogspot.ca/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

[Sikeliot]

Myceaneans were more Anatolian-like than modern mainland Greeks, right?


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Not like modern Anatolians. They were closer to Sardinia than what modern Greeks are.

[Tauromachos]

They are almost like a mixture of Sicilians and Sardinians.. they shift WEST not north.


Yeah but they are similar to Peloponnesians as well since Peloponnesians shift also West but not that much North.

And this should be reasonable since Peloponnese was the center of the Mycanaeans.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah but they are similar to Peloponnesians as well since Peloponnesians shift also West but not that much North.

And this should be reasonable since Peloponnese was the center of the Mycanaeans.

Peloponnesians have an increase in NE European and a decrease in East and West Med compared to Mycenaeans.

[Lavrentis]

Not like modern Anatolians. They were closer to Sardinia than what modern Greeks are.

Yeah they were more like modern Caucasus people, not like modern Anatolians


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[Lek]

Eurogenes K13 or K15. That result is not typical for the mainland, it is closer to Cretans and Sicilians.

Thought so.

Other than Slavic, I'm sure the Ancient Greeks mixed with their Indo European neighbors, Thracians and Ilyrian that were more Northern I'm guessing which is why Albanians are more North for example. Atleast the Ghegs and they don't seem to be much Slavic influenced.

No Albanian scores that much East Med.

So obviously there were other Indo European settlements or I'm guessing these Myceneans mixed with natives more than other Indo Europeans and were diverse maybe.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah they were more like modern Caucasus people, not like modern Anatolians


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Mycenaeans were halfway between Sardinians and Armenians, or at least the more southern-shifted ones are. Some of the other results were closer to Sardinians than the one in this thread was.

[Sikeliot]

Thought so.

Other than Slavic, I'm sure the Ancient Greeks mixed with their Indo European neighbors, Thracians and Ilyrian that were more Northern I'm guessing which is why Albanians are more North for example. Atleast the Ghegs and they don't seem to be much Slavic influenced.

No Albanian scores that much East Med.

So obviously there were other Indo European settlements or I'm guessing these Myceneans mixed with natives and were diverse.


If anyone would have been close to Mycenaeans it would have been the Sicanians of Sicily, though they may have had less Steppe than Mycenaeans even still, and would have basically been like Sardinians with some Caucasian/West Asian that Sardinians do not have.

Most mainland Greeks are not nearly as southern as that one result cybernautic posted.

[Tauromachos]

Source of steppe in the Dorians was probably similar to what it is in the bronze/iron age Montenegrin samples


The steppe of Dorians????

Again are there samples from Ancient Dorian DNA like there are from Mycanean DNA to tell how much Steppe they realy had and if they had
more than Mycanaeans??

Mycaneans already had 10% Steppe compared to Minoans before Dorian age.

Was there a further increase in Post Mycanean age or not?

Where are the studies or sources..?

[Lek]

They are almost like a mixture of Sicilians and Sardinians.. they shift WEST not north.

Yeah, I looked totally wrong at the map.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah, I looked totally wrong at the map.

Here you can see where Mycenaeans plot relative to Italians from Campania and a Cretan. Definitely shifted toward Sardinia.

Same for Minoans.

https://i.imgur.com/9YpzAfr.png

[Tauromachos]

If anyone would have been close to Mycenaeans it would have been the Sicanians of Sicily, though they may have had less Steppe than Mycenaeans even still, and would have basically been like Sardinians with some Caucasian/West Asian that Sardinians do not have.

That would have been more Minoan like than Mycanaean.

Again Mycanaeans without Steppe were bascily Minoans

As i said yesterday in my opinion ancient pre Greek/pre Phoenician Sicilians were Minoan like people.

[Lavrentis]

Can we say that modern Greeks are a Dorian-like population, rather than a Myceanean-like one? All evidence so far seems to suggest this. I wish we finally obtain Dorian kits so that we can test them on GEDmatch.


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[Sikeliot]

As i said yesterday in my opinion ancient pre Greek/pre Phoenician Sicilians were Minoan like people.

I agree with this.

[Sikeliot]

Can we say that modern Greeks are a Dorian-like population, rather than a Myceanean-like one? All evidence so far seems to suggest this. I wish we finally obtain Dorian kits so that we can test them on GEDmatch.


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Wasn't the "Crete Armenoi" sample Doric?

[Lavrentis]

Wasn't the "Crete Armenoi" sample Doric?

I have no idea. Can you post the map that the Crete_Armenoi sample was included?


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[Tauromachos]

Peloponnesians have an increase in NE European and a decrease in East and West Med compared to Mycenaeans.

The question is, did Classical Greeks already have that increase compared to Mycaneans?

Or woud this increase would have rather come from later migrations/assimilations of Northern people in the region than in the form of an ancient invasion.

Again scientists couldn't find any evidence of an ancient invasion of Northern Non Greek people during the Pre Classic and Classic ages.

Also Maniots and Syracusians should be closer to real ancient Dorians than an Arvanite from North West Peloponnese.


And you have seen the Maniot's results

[Sikeliot]

The question is, did Classical Greeks already have that increase compared to Mycaneans?

Or woud this increase would have rather come from later migrations/assimilations of Northern people in the region than in the form of an ancient invasion.

Again scientists couldn't find any evidence of an ancient invasion of Northern Non Greek people during the Pre Classic and Classic ages.

Also Maniots and Syracusians should be closer to real ancient Dorians than an Arvanite from North West Peloponnese.


And you have seen the Maniot's results



The fact that the parts of southern Italy with historical Doric influence (Apulia, Syracuse, Ragusa) have more Steppe than do the places with Ionian input or without any Greek at all (Palermo, Messina, Calabria) -- the ONLY exception being Agrigento which was Doric but seems to have lost some of its Steppe input because of higher influence from the MENA world -- implies to me that ancient Greeks already had noticeable Steppe input, just not as much as modern Greeks because the Slavic invasion hadn't come yet.

[Tauromachos]

The fact that the parts of southern Italy with historical Doric influence (Apulia, Syracuse, Ragusa) have more Steppe than do the places with Ionian input or without any Greek at all (Palermo, Messina, Calabria)

How much more Steppe do they have compared to these other Sicilians?

How much more Steppe do they have compared to that of Pre Doric Mycanaeans who were already more Steppe than the Minoans?

Does the amount of Steppe in these people suggest that the Dorians were a foreign Steppe like people or rather
that the Dorians came from the same Mycanaean like backround as the other Hellenic people but perhabs mixed a bit more
with Northern Steppe like people?





the ONLY exception being Agrigento which was Doric but seems to have lost some of its Steppe input because of higher influence from the MENA world

Similar to the case of Dodecanese Islanders who also were Dorians but probably mixed more with Mena like people

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I would also like to point out MODERN mainland Greeks score Levantines higher on their Oracles than did Mycenaeans. Even though it is not close. Mycenaeans were not Levant-like at all.

South Italians score Romanians, Bulgarians and north Italians in their oracles, did these people migrate to south Italy? No, they didn't.

[Sikeliot]

South Italians score Romanians, Bulgarians and north Italians in their oracles, did these people migrate to south Italy? No, they didn't.

North Italians actually did, yes.

They would score Romanian/Bulgarian because those groups have indigenous Southern European and West Asian DNA, not just Slavic.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Source of steppe in the Dorians was probably similar to what it is in the bronze/iron age Montenegrin samples

http://polishgenes.blogspot.ca/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

The Iron Age Montenegrin sample was very very low quality, if I remember correctly.

[Lek]

Here you can see where Mycenaeans plot relative to Italians from Campania and a Cretan. Definitely shifted toward Sardinia.

Same for Minoans.

https://i.imgur.com/9YpzAfr.png

They are actually not too far away from Southern Albanians or Arbereshe. Interesting enough. Only way more Western I'm guessing.

Only Southern Albanians that shift North are the ones of Gheg origin.

I also noticed many mainland Greeks shift more North than Southern Albanians.

That Maniot result posted seems rather a ''purer'' Greek and not too far away from some Tosks.

It could be that the South Balkans and the Islands had more native people that got absorbed by the Indo Europeans, more so than the North. Which would of made the North more Northern shifted and less Neolithic etc.

Seems then that some Mainland Greeks are more North due to Slavic influx. Or else they should be same as some Southern Albanians, Islanders, Maniots etc.

I don't have any other explanation.

[Sikeliot]

How much more Steppe do they have compared to these other Sicilians?

About 10% from the Sicilian average, about 20% from the ones that are more outlying.

These are two results on Dodecad K12b. The first is from Ragusa, the second is from Palermo.

#1:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.25
2 Atlantic_Med 27.28
3 North_European 17.15
4 Southwest_Asian 11.37
5 Gedrosia 6.12
6 Northwest_African 4.11
7 Sub_Saharan 0.82
8 Siberian 0.53
9 East_Asian 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.94
2 Greek (Dodecad) 6.99
3 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.07
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.86
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 8.14
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.19
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.1
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.62
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.48
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 12.51
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.04
12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.72
13 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 17.83
14 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.23
15 Romanians (Behar) 19.21
16 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.34
17 Cypriots (Behar) 21.09
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 21.31
19 Turks (Behar) 23.69
20 Lebanese (Behar) 24.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.1% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.06
2 74.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 25.2% German (Dodecad) @ 2.3
3 88.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.6
4 84.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.6
5 73.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.61
6 89.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.9% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.63
7 90.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.5% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.66
8 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
9 84.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.72
10 84.7% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.72
11 84.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
12 84.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 15.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
13 79.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.77
14 84.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.7% British (Dodecad) @ 2.77
15 88.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.78
16 88.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.78
17 84.1% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
18 90.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.6% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
19 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.8
20 58% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.87




#2:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 37.87
2 Atlantic_Med 27.26
3 Southwest_Asian 13.83
4 North_European 11.06
5 Gedrosia 4.17
6 Northwest_African 4.08
7 Sub_Saharan 1.34
8 East_Asian 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 3.55
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 3.84
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 4.04
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.11
5 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.97
6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 9.36
7 Greek (Dodecad) 9.86
8 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.66
9 Cypriots (Behar) 14.18
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 15.63
11 Tuscan (HGDP) 15.7
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 17.04
13 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.7
14 Lebanese (Behar) 19.78
15 Turks (Behar) 21.37
16 Druze (HGDP) 22.01
17 Syrians (Behar) 22.62
18 N_Italian (Dodecad) 23.55
19 Jordanians (Behar) 23.56
20 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.1% Samaritians (Behar) @ 1.83
2 63.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 36.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.92
3 87.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.9% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.08
4 86% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.14
5 88.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.2% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 2.26
6 87.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.1% Syrians (Behar) @ 2.26
7 88.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.6% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.31
8 82.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.8% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.37
9 89.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.2% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.37
10 56.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 43.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.47
11 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.49
12 90.3% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.7% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.54
13 53.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 46.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.56
14 94% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6% Yemen_Jews (Behar) @ 2.57
15 92.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.4% Yemenese (Behar) @ 2.57
16 92.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.4% Bedouin (HGDP) @ 2.61
17 82% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 18% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.65
18 90.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 2.67
19 69.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 30.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.68
20 89.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.3% Samaritians (Behar) @ 2.69

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Wasn't the "Crete Armenoi" sample Doric?

Crete_Armenoi was not Doric, it was a low quality sample from Crete which had results like 15.32% Red_Sea and 12.89% Baltic and it's not to take seriously.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The fact that the parts of southern Italy with historical Doric influence (Apulia, Syracuse, Ragusa) have more Steppe than do the places with Ionian input or without any Greek at all (Palermo, Messina, Calabria) -- the ONLY exception being Agrigento which was Doric but seems to have lost some of its Steppe input because of higher influence from the MENA world -- implies to me that ancient Greeks already had noticeable Steppe input, just not as much as modern Greeks because the Slavic invasion hadn't come yet.

This is post is bs.

[Tauromachos]

About 10% from the Sicilian average, about 20% from the ones that are more outlying.

If it is 10% from the Sicilian average than it suggests rather that Dorians were native Mycanaeans who may have assimilated
some additional Northern people than that Dorians were foreign Steppe like people themselfes.

[Sikeliot]

This is post is bs.

What is inaccurate about it?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

If it is 10% form the Sicilian average than it suggests rather that Dorians were native Mycanaeans who may have assimilated
some additional Northern people than that Dorians were foreign Steppe like people themselfes.

This is a Greek woman from Bavaria, (510 – 530) 6th century AD. She has some Baltic but still no Eastern_Euro which was 30% in IEs. In the PCA she was closer to I9006 than to West_Sicily. Mycenaeans are those who actually brought Greek to Greece, they are the ones who should be more steppe. But they aren't. The historicity of a mass migration of Dorians into Greece has never been established, they simply came from north Greece and surely were not so much different from the Greeks of the south. We should have ancient DNA before giving any conclusion.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.03
2 West_Med 24.04
3 Atlantic 16.95
4 West_Asian 14.97
5 Baltic 6.28
6 North_Sea 5.21
7 Red_Sea 1.52

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 8.298720
2 Central_Greek @ 11.280586
3 West_Sicilian @ 11.399659
4 East_Sicilian @ 11.458520
5 Algerian_Jewish @ 12.128585
6 Italian_Jewish @ 12.262348
7 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.871817
8 Sephardic_Jewish @ 12.940746
9 Greek @ 14.259995
10 Ashkenazi @ 15.621030
11 Tuscan @ 16.085714
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 16.577948
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.235832
14 Cyprian @ 18.377066
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.824587
16 North_Italian @ 22.450418
17 Bulgarian @ 24.141497
18 Lebanese_Muslim @ 24.194462
19 Turkish @ 25.562592
20 Syrian @ 25.705830

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% South_Italian +50% South_Italian @ 8.298720

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +25% Greek +25% Sardinian @ 6.803798

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Cyprian + Sardinian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 6.154697
2 Greek + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.451073
3 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.478934
4 Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.486148
5 Assyrian + Sardinian + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 6.517298
6 Assyrian + Sardinian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 6.549174
7 Cyprian + Greek + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.596216
8 Lebanese_Muslim + Sardinian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 6.605176
9 Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.678501
10 Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 6.690241
11 Assyrian + Greek + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.696171
12 Cyprian + Sardinian + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 6.755972
13 Cyprian + Cyprian + Greek + Sardinian @ 6.803798
14 Assyrian + Cyprian + Sardinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.803905
15 Greek + Lebanese_Christian + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.804898
16 Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.811191
17 Cyprian + East_Sicilian + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.814681
18 Central_Greek + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.820364
19 Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + South_Italian @ 6.832963
20 Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 6.852524

[Vojnik]

Which gedmatch project is this?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What is inaccurate about it?

Genetic differences among south Italians are not huge and in all of south Italy steppe is very very low.

[Sikeliot]

Genetic differences among south Italians are not huge and in all of south Italy steppe is very very low.

It is low, but it is higher in specific areas than others.

[Tauromachos]

Genetic differences among south Italians are not huge and in all of south Italy steppe is very very low.


Its not that high in Greeks neither

[Tauromachos]

Perhaps not an 'invasion' but there was some kind of settlement/migration that would explain the appearance of the Dorians

Where is the reference from ancient Greek sources that Dorians had an essentialy different appearance compared to other Hellenes?

As i said it is possibel that Dorians may have mixed or assimilated some Northern people in their ranks"Celts,Scythians,Thracians,Illyrians"

this i find much more likely than that these Northern people came as Invadors

[Kouros]

Where is the reference from ancient Greek sources that Dorians had an essentialy different appearance compared to other Hellenes?

As i said it is possibel that Dorians may have mixed or assimilated some Northern people in their ranks"Celts,Scythians,Thracians,Illyrians"

this i find much more likely than that these Northern people came as Invadors

k den

[Ajeje Brazorf]

North Italians actually did, yes.

They would score Romanian/Bulgarian because those groups have indigenous Southern European and West Asian DNA, not just Slavic.

North Italian migrations only occured in the east of Sicily, partially to Lucania and did not involve all of south Italy. The fact they score Romanians or Bulgarians doesn't imply a massive migrations of those peoples, I was trying to tell this.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It is low, but it is higher in specific areas than others.

Pre-Roman peoples of Apulia were Illyrians and Syracuse has been an important Greek city also during its Byzantine rule, in the 7th century it has been even the capital of the Roman empire for a few years.

[kleenex]

East Med is already present in Early European Farmers, and West Asian is CHG-like.

Exactly it's an ancient component present in modern day Greeks, Italians, Cypriots (with increasing affinity).

[kleenex]

Pre-Roman peoples of Apulia were Illyrians and Syracuse has been an important Greek city also during its Byzantine rule, in the 7th century it has been even the capital of the Roman empire for a few years.

Didn't Myceneans settle Apulia?

[kleenex]

Its not that high in Greeks neither

15-20 percent I would guess in the mainland.

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEqC3JDx9E

[kleenex]

Yea indeed, South_Italian compared to Mycenaeans has generally more Baltic, West_Asian, Red_Sea, a little bit more of North_Sea and less Atlantic, West_Med, East_Med.
But Mycenaeans were from Greece, not from Sicily. We should compare them to Greeks. Here is a Peloponnesian vs a Mycenaean:
https://i.imgur.com/0tCUF63.png

I"ll throw my own result in the mix (100% Peloponnesian) for comparison. It's difficult to compare a Bronze age population to a modern pop. Too many factors to consider.
1 East_Med 23.23
2 Atlantic 19.69
3 West_Med 15.21
4 West_Asian 13.48
5 Baltic 11.49
6 North_Sea 10.38
7 Red_Sea 3.45
8 Eastern_Euro 2.92
9 Amerindian 0.15

[JQP4545]

Where is the steppe influence in this sample?

[Tauromachos]

What calculator is this and are these average Greek results?

gedmatch

Average for the particular region or for all of Mainland Greece?

For all of Mainland Greece i suppose not

For the region i think at least it is not atypical as it concurs with results of the scientific study conducted by Stamoyannopoulos for
Peloponnesian populations


I wouldn't discount Celtic input in the Peloponnese also.

I wouldn't neither

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Where is the steppe influence in this sample?

There's no steppe influence in these ancient Greeks. Steppe peoples influenced more the areas of north and northeast Europe which experienced population crashes and less south Europe. Significant population changes come only from significant migrations.

[Tauromachos]

There's no steppe influence in these ancient Greeks. Steppe peoples influenced more the areas of north and northeast Europe which experienced population crashes and less south Europe. Significant population changes come only from significant migrations.

"Veneziani Grand Seniori
Bolognesi Grand Doctori
Florentini Tutti Matti
Vincensini Manga Gatti"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/8/88/Gatto_Rosso.JPG

[Ajeje Brazorf]

"Veneziani Grand Seniori
Bolognesi Grand Doctori
Florentini Tutti Matti
Vincensini Manga Gatti"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/8/88/Gatto_Rosso.JPG

Lol.

[Lavrentis]

Mycenaeans are those who actually brought Greek to Greece, they are the ones who should be more steppe. But they aren't. The historicity of a mass migration of Dorians into Greece has never been established, they simply came from north Greece and surely were not so much different from the Greeks of the south. We should have ancient DNA before giving any conclusion.

Isn’t it the Dorians that should have the most Steppe? I personally think that there was a Dorian (Indo-European) invasion from the north of Europe , that destroyed the Myceanean civilization. I don’t agree that this invasion never happened. The Dorians were probably those who brought the Greek language to Greece btw.

But I agree that we need ancient DNA. We need Dorian samples.



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[Teucer]

Isn’t it the Dorians that should have the most Steppe? I personally think that there was a Dorian (Indo-European) invasion from the north of Europe , that destroyed the Myceanean civilization. I don’t agree that this invasion never happened. The Dorians were probably those who brought the Greek language to Greece btw.

But I agree that we need ancient DNA. We need Dorian samples.



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The Mycenaeans were already speaking Greek and used the Linear B Script for writing before the Dorian Invasion happened

[nightrider+]

Dorians were most likely mountain people coming down to empty lands, I doubt their difference with Mycenaeans was more than 5-10% EHG/Steppe/whatever . "Dorian invasion" is 100% modern concept with almost no basis at all. Ancient Greeks never used the word "invasion", they used "kathodos" (descent).

[Percivalle]

"Veneziani Grand Seniori
Bolognesi Grand Doctori
Florentini Tutti Matti
Vincensini Manga Gatti"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/8/88/Gatto_Rosso.JPG

It's a Venetian nursery rhime but this is the original version

Veneziani gran signori,
Padovani gran dotori,
Visentini magna gati,
Veronesi tuti mati,
Udinesi castelani
col cognome de Furlani,
Trevisani pan e tripe,
Rovigoti baco e pipe,
i Cremaschi fa cojoni,
i Bressan tajacantoni,
ghe n’è anca de pì tristi:
Bergamaschi brusa cristi.

[Lavrentis]

The Mycenaeans were already speaking Greek and used the Linear B Script for writing before the Dorian Invasion happened

You’re right..

But what do you think? Was there a Dorian invasion/migration or not? Here are some links:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

http://www.greekboston.com/culture/ancient-history/dorian-invasion/


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[Teucer]

You’re right..

But what do you think? Was there a Dorian invasion/migration or not? Here are some links:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

http://www.greekboston.com/culture/ancient-history/dorian-invasion/


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I believe there was a migration of Greeks from Epirus into the South who eventually came to dominate the region following the power vacuum left behind by the Mycenaeans

[Sikeliot]

I"ll throw my own result in the mix (100% Peloponnesian) for comparison. It's difficult to compare a Bronze age population to a modern pop. Too many factors to consider.
1 East_Med 23.23
2 Atlantic 19.69
3 West_Med 15.21
4 West_Asian 13.48
5 Baltic 11.49
6 North_Sea 10.38
7 Red_Sea 3.45
8 Eastern_Euro 2.92
9 Amerindian 0.15



You almost have as much Atlantic as you do East Med.

This is probably why Peloponnesians plot westward.

Atlantic is Basque-like.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Isn’t it the Dorians that should have the most Steppe? I personally think that there was a Dorian (Indo-European) invasion from the north of Europe , that destroyed the Myceanean civilization. I don’t agree that this invasion never happened. The Dorians were probably those who brought the Greek language to Greece btw.

But I agree that we need ancient DNA. We need Dorian samples.



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We can't know. As I previously said, Mycenaeans are those who brought Greek to Greece and therefore should be more steppe, not the Dorians. Dorians simply came from Greece itself and I think were not so much different from the populations of the south. I'm going to post HarappaWorld NE-Euro score for all 4 Mycenaeans:

Peristeria4 (I9033): Female without an osteological age estimate, 1416 – 1280 calBCE (DEM-2903 (MAMS-25207), 3084 ± 24 bp). = 16.58%
Random south Calabrian = 13.67%
Galatas4 (I9041): Male without an osteological age estimate, LH IIB to LH IIIC (15th to early 12th century BCE). = 13.12%
Galatas19 (I9010): Female without an osteological age estimate, LH IIB to LH IIIC (15th to early 12th century BCE) = 11.1%
Salamis31 (I9006): 1411 – 1262 calBCE (DEM-2905 (MAMS-25209), 3067 ± 25 bp). Child from Tomb 7, North side, group 34. = 10.44%

What I'm stating is in line with the original paper:
"The amount of steppe ancestry is about ~13% when the Early/Middle Bronze Age group (“Yamnya/Afnasievo/Poltavka-related”) is used as a source (Steppe_EMBA). The proportion is slightly higher when the Middle/Late Bronze Age (Steppe_MLBA) group (“Srubnaya/Andronovo/Sintashta-related”) is used as a source, and higher still when the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations from mainland Europe (Europe_LNBA) are used as a source."

[Sikeliot]

We can't know. As I previously said, Mycenaeans are those who brought Greek to Greece and therefore should be more steppe, not the Dorians. Dorians simply came from Greece itself and I think were not so much different from the populations of the south. I'm going to post HarappaWorld NE-Euro score for all 4 Mycenaeans:

Peristeria4 (I9033): Female without an osteological age estimate, 1416 – 1280 calBCE (DEM-2903 (MAMS-25207), 3084 ± 24 bp). = 16.58%
Random Calabrian = 13.67%
Galatas4 (I9041): Male without an osteological age estimate, LH IIB to LH IIIC (15th to early 12th century BCE). = 13.12%
Galatas19 (I9010): Female without an osteological age estimate, LH IIB to LH IIIC (15th to early 12th century BCE) = 11.1%
Salamis31 (I9006): 1411 – 1262 calBCE (DEM-2905 (MAMS-25209), 3067 ± 25 bp). Child from Tomb 7, North side, group 34. = 10.44%

What I'm stating is in line with the original paper:
"The amount of steppe ancestry is about ~13% when the Early/Middle Bronze Age group (“Yamnya/Afnasievo/Poltavka-related”) is used as a source (Steppe_EMBA). The proportion is slightly higher when the Middle/Late Bronze Age (Steppe_MLBA) group (“Srubnaya/Andronovo/Sintashta-related”) is used as a source, and higher still when the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations from mainland Europe (Europe_LNBA) are used as a source."



The difference between Mycenaean and a Calabrese is not the Steppe, it is a reduction in West Med and an increase in West and Southwest Asian. The Steppe is roughly constant.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The difference between Mycenaean and a Calabrese is not the Steppe, it is a reduction in West Med and an increase in West and Southwest Asian. The Steppe is roughly constant.

Calabrian vs Galatas4

https://i.imgur.com/46qs0Qs.png

Keep in mind that I've chosen the most southerners (Calabrians) of all south Italians.
Mycenaeans were not from Calabria but if we had to compare, we would say that Calabrians have more Baltic, more West_Asian and Red_Sea above all, considerably less Atlantic and West_Med.

[Lavrentis]

Hey OP, last favor, please add this Cretan to the previous MDS you posted (the one you added the other Cretan I gave you yesterday):

1East_Med 28.48
2West_Med 17.4
3West_Asian 16.1
4Atlantic 14.2
5Baltic 10.19
6North_Sea 6.16
7Eastern_Euro 4.54
8Red_Sea 2.8
9Northeast_African 0.13



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[Scholarios]

Of course, but clearly the admixture of modern Jewish populations is similar to that of this Mycenaean sample. That must mean something

It means that Jewish males intermarried en masse with gentile females in the Mediterranean parts of the Roman Empire, before their spread through the rest of Europe

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Hey OP, last favor, please add this Cretan to the previous MDS you posted (the one you added the other Cretan I gave you yesterday):

1East_Med 28.48
2West_Med 17.4
3West_Asian 16.1
4Atlantic 14.2
5Baltic 10.19
6North_Sea 6.16
7Eastern_Euro 4.54
8Red_Sea 2.8
9Northeast_African 0.13



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https://i.imgur.com/prI8EUt.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/07oczB7.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It means that Jewish males intermarried en masse with gentile females in the Mediterranean parts of the Roman Empire, before their spread through the rest of Europe

Exactly.

[kleenex]

https://i.imgur.com/prI8EUt.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/07oczB7.png

Curious about second PCA and why Raine, Sorcelow and I, Kleenex (all Peloponnesians) are so far apart. Who did this PCA and what calculator was used. Thanks!

[Sikeliot]

Can someone add my Sicilian cousin? She is from Palermo.

She should end up near 'mongrel' since they usually are similar on most calculators.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.08
2 West_Med 17.11
3 West_Asian 14.11
4 Atlantic 13.41
5 North_Sea 11.12
6 Red_Sea 7.27
7 Baltic 2.83
8 Northeast_African 1.33
9 Eastern_Euro 0.95
10 Sub-Saharan 0.73
11 Oceanian 0.59
12 Southeast_Asian 0.3
13 Siberian 0.18

[Tauromachos]

Curious about second PCA and why Raine, Sorcelow and I, Kleenex (all Peloponnesians) are so far apart. Who did this PCA and what calculator was used. Thanks!

This stuff is all bullshit

Read this articles
https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals
And watch this video in case you understand Greek at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEqC3JDx9E

[Insuperable]

Was STR300 really a Greek in Bavaria?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Curious about second PCA and why Raine, Sorcelow and I, Kleenex (all Peloponnesians) are so far apart. Who did this PCA and what calculator was used. Thanks!

I did this very unprofessional PCA using K15, btw you seem very Albanian shifted.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Was STR300 really a Greek in Bavaria?

According to the study she was Greek, I think it's more likely that she was Greek rather than south Italian, considering the political importance of the Byzantine Empire at that time.

[nightrider+]

According to the study she was Greek, I think it's more likely that she was Greek rather than south Italian, considering the political importance of the Byzantine Empire at that time.

What study?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Can someone add my Sicilian cousin? She is from Palermo.

She should end up near 'mongrel' since they usually are similar on most calculators.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.08
2 West_Med 17.11
3 West_Asian 14.11
4 Atlantic 13.41
5 North_Sea 11.12
6 Red_Sea 7.27
7 Baltic 2.83
8 Northeast_African 1.33
9 Eastern_Euro 0.95
10 Sub-Saharan 0.73
11 Oceanian 0.59
12 Southeast_Asian 0.3
13 Siberian 0.18

Palermo is actually a melting pot of peoples coming from all Sicily and even mainland south Italy.
https://i.imgur.com/KXOJDTP.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What study?

This study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/03/06/1719880115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1719880115.sapp.pdf
"All males and females with normal skulls had estimated origins with north and central Europe, apart from STR_300 and STR_502, with their most likely geographic origins being Greece and Turkey respectively"

[Ajeje Brazorf]

This stuff is all bullshit

Read this articles
https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals
And watch this video in case you understand Greek at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEqC3JDx9E

Indeed, 2dimensional PCAs are misleading and do not show all genetic variation. Two peoples could even plot close despite having a completely different aDNA.

[Sikeliot]

Palermo is actually a melting pot of peoples coming from all Sicily and even mainland south Italy.
https://i.imgur.com/KXOJDTP.png


As far as I know, that line of the family has always been there.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

As far as I know, that line of the family has always been there.

Very strange.

[Sikeliot]

Very strange.

I mean why would we assume everyone in Palermo is of foreign origins? I do think though that throughout history they did absorb a lot of foreigners but I think most people living there now, their families have been there for generations and likely would not know otherwise.

Besides, we're not from the city of Palermo itself but from towns around it, like Carini and Capaci.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I mean why would we assume everyone in Palermo is of foreign origins? I do think though that throughout history they did absorb a lot of foreigners but I think most people living there now, their families have been there for generations and likely would not know otherwise.

Besides, we're not from the city of Palermo itself but from towns around it, like Carini and Capaci.

I meant Palermo and neighboring towns, they received many immigrants from every part of Sicily. Your cousin is similar to Calabrians but has very high North_Sea and Red_Sea.

[Sikeliot]

I meant Palermo and neighboring towns, they received many immigrants from every part of Sicily. Your cousin is similar to Calabrians but has very high North_Sea and Red_Sea.

Yes. But what I also notice is that most Palermitans are closer to Calabria than to the "West Sicily" reference based in Trapani. The Trapanese have a lot more recent mixture than Palermitans do -- more Norman, more mainland Italian settlement from further north -- as well as more Greek.

It is my personal opinion, based on the distinct difference between Trapani and the two provinces bordering it even in professional studies, that Trapani is a genetic outlier on the island.

[Sikeliot]

I meant Palermo and neighboring towns, they received many immigrants from every part of Sicily. Your cousin is similar to Calabrians but has very high North_Sea and Red_Sea.

Yes. But what I also notice is that most Palermitans are closer to Calabria than to the "West Sicily" reference based in Trapani. The Trapanese have a lot more recent mixture than Palermitans do -- more Norman, more mainland Italian settlement from further north -- as well as more Greek.

It is my personal opinion, based on the distinct difference between Trapani and the two provinces bordering it even in professional studies, that Trapani is a genetic outlier on the island.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes. But what I also notice is that most Palermitans are closer to Calabria than to the "West Sicily" reference based in Trapani. The Trapanese have a lot more recent mixture than Palermitans do -- more Norman, more mainland Italian settlement from further north -- as well as more Greek.

It is my personal opinion, based on the distinct difference between Trapani and the two provinces bordering it even in professional studies, that Trapani is a genetic outlier on the island.

Change your mind. Palermitans can differ from each other, being the largest city of Sicily and Trapani is the same as east Sicily but simply more Atlantic and less West_Asian. There's no Norman or north Italian influence in Sicilians, northwest Italians settled in east Sicily which is actually more south shifted, and their Gallo-Italic dialects were still spoken until some years ago.

[nightrider+]

This study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/03/06/1719880115.DCSupplemental/pnas.1719880115.sapp.pdf
"All males and females with normal skulls had estimated origins with north and central Europe, apart from STR_300 and STR_502, with their most likely geographic origins being Greece and Turkey respectively"

Can you run this on gedmatch? How does it compare to modern Peloponnesians for example?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Can you run this on gedmatch? How does it compare to modern Peloponnesians for example?

I had opened two threads about it:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239039-STR_300-woman
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239429-Early-Medieval-Bavaria-GEDmatch-results
https://i.imgur.com/AlHm2KY.png

[Tauromachos]

Peloponnesians have an increase in NE European and a decrease in East and West Med compared to Mycenaeans.

You have to admit that Peloponnesians with less NE Euro are close to Mycanaeans.

Maniots and Tsakonians should be close groups.

Its also not true that increase in NE Euro always goes hand in hand with decrease in East or West Med.

In the other thread the Korinthian and the Islander have the same SW Euro.
And the difference in their West Asian component is not realy big 4-5%.

[Teucer]

It appears that the original Greeks were more 'Sardinian' than they are today.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Sardinians on this site in terms of gedmatch etc

[Kouros]

Then how do you explain modern Greeks not plotting near Mycenaeans and having very different ratios?

Doric, Illyrian, or Thracian input? Sometimes you act as if though Greeks and Southern Italians should plot right on top of each other.

[Tauromachos]

Doric, Illyrian, or Thracian input? Sometimes you act as if though Greeks and Southern Italians should plot right on top of each other.

Erase Doric from this sentence and replace by Scythians or Medieval admixtures from other Europeans.

Anyway the professional studies show that modern Greeks are still 70% Mycanaean like.

Something the Apricity idiots here try to deny with cherrypicked examples from shity calculators

Dorians were Hellenic and there is zero evidence that they were very different from the rest of Greeks.

Also alot of colonies in Southern Italy were Dorian

[Kouros]

Erase Doric from this sentence and replace by Scythians or Medieval admixtures from other Europeans.

Anyway the professional studies show that modern Greeks are still 70% Mycanaean like.

Something the Apricity idiots here try to deny with cherrypicked examples from shity calculators

Dorians were Hellenic and there is zero evidence that they were very different from the rest of Greeks.

Also alot of colonies in Southern Italy were Dorian

ok

[nightrider+]

It appears that the original Greeks were more 'Sardinian' than they are today.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Sardinians on this site in terms of gedmatch etcNot more Sardinian, more Anatolian/Greek neolithic which was a very eastern/basal eurasian shifted version of Sardinians who are the only proxy in these calculators so the results are skewed. The calculators are very outdated.

[Teucer]

Not more Sardinian, more Anatolian/Greek neolithic which was a very eastern/basal eurasian shifted version of Sardinians who are the only proxy in these calculators so the results are skewed. The calculators are very outdated.

Okay well I apologise for my misconception. I'm basing my opinions on gedmatch results so maybe I should be more cautious in the future.

When you say Neolithic and eastern/basal Eurasian, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about South Western Neolithic Anatolian?

[Tauromachos]

Not more Sardinian, more Anatolian/Greek neolithic which was a very eastern/basal eurasian shifted version of Sardinians who are the only proxy in these calculators so the results are skewed. The calculators are very outdated.

https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/


“When the researchers compared the DNA of modern Greeks to that of ancient Mycenaeans, they found a lot of genetic overlap. Modern Greeks share similar proportions of DNA from the same ancestral sources as Mycenaeans, although they have inherited a little less DNA from ancient Anatolian farmers and a bit more DNA from later migrations to Greece,” Science wrote.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It appears that the original Greeks were more 'Sardinian' than they are today.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Sardinians on this site in terms of gedmatch etc

This individual is from north Sardinia:

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 53.27
2 Atlantic 20.90
3 East_Med 18.23
4 North_Sea 5.05
5 Red_Sea 2.03

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 35.093788
3 North_Italian @ 35.643959
4 Tuscan @ 36.909981
5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 37.198055
6 Spanish_Valencia @ 37.267094
7 Spanish_Aragon @ 37.295078
8 Spanish_Extremadura @ 37.330662
9 Spanish_Cantabria @ 37.401653
10 Portuguese @ 37.833858
11 Spanish_Murcia @ 37.928204
12 Mozabite_Berber @ 38.178711
13 Southwest_French @ 38.374294
14 Spanish_Galicia @ 38.677742
15 Moroccan @ 38.718128
16 West_Sicilian @ 38.917095
17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 38.997162
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 39.497662
19 Algerian @ 40.483025
20 Tunisian @ 40.920845

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +50% Sardinian @ 6.123765

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +25% Sardinian +25% Sardinian @ 6.123765

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.959074
3 Mozabite_Berber + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 12.999553
4 Moroccan + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.083521
5 North_Italian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.195844
6 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 13.349384
7 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.374429
8 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.388553
9 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 13.454994
10 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.455099
11 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Tuscan @ 13.460589
12 Portuguese + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.580690
13 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Murcia @ 13.591911
14 Algerian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.602490
15 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 13.689255
16 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Tunisian @ 13.762537
17 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Galicia @ 13.769472
18 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + West_Sicilian @ 13.791305
19 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 13.916733
20 Algerian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.919152

[Teucer]

This individual is from north Sardinia:

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 53.27
2 Atlantic 20.90
3 East_Med 18.23
4 North_Sea 5.05
5 Red_Sea 2.03

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 35.093788
3 North_Italian @ 35.643959
4 Tuscan @ 36.909981
5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 37.198055
6 Spanish_Valencia @ 37.267094
7 Spanish_Aragon @ 37.295078
8 Spanish_Extremadura @ 37.330662
9 Spanish_Cantabria @ 37.401653
10 Portuguese @ 37.833858
11 Spanish_Murcia @ 37.928204
12 Mozabite_Berber @ 38.178711
13 Southwest_French @ 38.374294
14 Spanish_Galicia @ 38.677742
15 Moroccan @ 38.718128
16 West_Sicilian @ 38.917095
17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 38.997162
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 39.497662
19 Algerian @ 40.483025
20 Tunisian @ 40.920845

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +50% Sardinian @ 6.123765

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +25% Sardinian +25% Sardinian @ 6.123765

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.959074
3 Mozabite_Berber + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 12.999553
4 Moroccan + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.083521
5 North_Italian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.195844
6 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 13.349384
7 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.374429
8 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.388553
9 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 13.454994
10 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.455099
11 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Tuscan @ 13.460589
12 Portuguese + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.580690
13 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Murcia @ 13.591911
14 Algerian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.602490
15 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 13.689255
16 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Tunisian @ 13.762537
17 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Galicia @ 13.769472
18 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + West_Sicilian @ 13.791305
19 Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 13.916733
20 Algerian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 13.919152

Those distances are absolutely insane. How has Sardinia been left so isolated? It is in the middle of the Med, surrounded by so many different peoples

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Erase Doric from this sentence and replace by Scythians or Medieval admixtures from other Europeans.

Anyway the professional studies show that modern Greeks are still 70% Mycanaean like.

Something the Apricity idiots here try to deny with cherrypicked examples from shity calculators

Dorians were Hellenic and there is zero evidence that they were very different from the rest of Greeks.

Also alot of colonies in Southern Italy were Dorian

Even amateur tools like the one of Tolan on K36 telling how much you share with ancient samples, shows that Greeks share 70% with Mycenaeans. In my opinion the only good calculators are HarappaWorld and Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15, the others are not good.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Those distances are absolutely insane. How has Sardinia been left so isolated? It is in the middle of the Med, surrounded by so many different peoples

Did you see the oracles? Is it accurate? According to this they are basically closer to north Africans than south Italians. I think it's because of the high West_Med which is also high in north Africans...
Loooooool look at the distances
1 Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 35.093788

[Lavrentis]

It appears that the original Greeks were more 'Sardinian' than they are today.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Sardinians on this site in terms of gedmatch etc

The difference between Myceaneans and modern Greeks seems to be an increase in Steppe and a decrease in West Med in (modern) Greeks.

Dorians would be more similar to modern day Greeks though, considering that they had bigger amounts of Steppe. The ancient Greeks themselves were a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lavrentis]

Even amateur tools like the one of Tolan on K36 telling how much you share with ancient samples, shows that Greeks share 70% with Mycenaeans. In my opinion the only good calculators are HarappaWorld and Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15, the others are not good.

What about Eurogenes K13? I think it’s pretty reliable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nightrider+]

Dorians would be more similar to modern day Greeks though, considering that they had bigger amounts of Steppe. The ancient Greeks themselves were a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians.


There is evidence that Doric dialect was spoken in Mycenaean times too. It was probably the katsikovlachic version of the time. Dorians=Ancient Slavogoatvlachs

[Teucer]

Did you see the oracles? Is it accurate? According to this they are basically closer to north Africans than south Italians. I think it's because of the high West_Med which is also high in north Africans...
Loooooool look at the distances
1 Sardinian @ 6.123765
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 35.093788

No idea hoe accurate they are

[Teucer]

The difference between Myceaneans and modern Greeks seems to be an increase in Steppe and a decrease in West Med in (modern) Greeks.

Dorians would be more similar to modern day Greeks though, considering that they had bigger amounts of Steppe. The ancient Greeks themselves were a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Only in certain areas of the Peloponnese and Macedon, not everywhere

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What about Eurogenes K13? I think it’s pretty reliable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

K15 is better than K13 and they are pretty similiar.


The difference between Myceaneans and modern Greeks seems to be an increase in Steppe and a decrease in West Med in (modern) Greeks.

Dorians would be more similar to modern day Greeks though, considering that they had bigger amounts of Steppe. The ancient Greeks themselves were a mix of Myceaneans and Dorians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have no Dorian genomes so we can't know. According to me, they weren't that different from the Greeks of the south. I repeat, Mycenaeans brought Greek to Greece and they are the ones who should be more Steppe but as we can see from the paper they aren't.

[Tauromachos]

We have no Dorian genomes so we can't know. According to me, they weren't that different from the Greeks of the south. I repeat, Mycenaeans brought Greek to Greece and they are the ones who should be more Steppe but as we can see from the paper they aren't.

Exactly
Well Mycaneaens were a bit more Steppe than the Minoans in Crete with whom apart from this they had common origins.

The thing with Dorians is exactly what you say that people don't have any sample from real ancient Dorians yet but everyones makes claims
about them as if everything would be known.

And its likely that there never will be Dorian samples simply because they were a part of native Mycanaean population.
Triandafilidis mentions in his book that Scientists studied samples of the ancient population of Mainland Greece from pre and post
Dorian time and they couldn't find any evidence in the material that would support the hypothesis of a Dorian invasion.

Also given that modern Greeks are 70% Mycanaean like ,Dorians can't realy have been so much different from Mycanaean ,otherwise
modern Greeks would have been much less similar.

Of course if you deny the similarity of modern Greeks to Mycanaeans anything becomes possible.

You could take a Slavophone somewhere from Northern Greece with increased recent Slavic admixture and claim this to
be Ancient Dorian DNA :lol:

The native pre classical people in Sicily were in my opinion a Minoan like population.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Exactly
Well Mycaneaens were a bit more Steppe than the Minoans in Crete with whom apart from this they had common origins.

The thing with Dorians is exactly what you say that people don't have any sample from real ancient Dorians yet but everyones makes claims
about them as if everything would be known.

And its likely that there never will be Dorian samples simply because they were a part of native Mycanaean population.
Triandafilfis mentions in his book that Scientist studied samples of the ancient population of Mainland Greece from pre and post
Dorian time and they couldn't find any evidence in the material that would support the hypothesis of the Dorian invasion.

Also given that modern Greeks are 70% Mycanaean like Dorians can't realy have been so much different from Mycanaean ,otherwise
modern Greeks would have been much less similar.

You are right. I meant they obviously had steppe but that steppe was low, Return of the Heracleidae is actually a legend and the historicity of a mass migration of Dorians into Greece was never proved. I wish they analyzed more DNA from Greece and south Italy...

[Tauromachos]

You are right.
I meant they obviously had steppe but that steppe was low,

Exactly
So it didn't got into them by an invasion but by contact and assimilation of such people to an extend.
What i tried to explain several times but everyone simply ignored it.



Return of the Heracleidae is actually a legend and the historicity of a mass migration of Dorians into Greece was never proved. I wish they analyzed more DNA from Greece and south Italy...

I think there just a misconception about Dorians in general.

A simple look at Greek mythology could help clearing this up.

Dorians trace their ancestry from Hellen the same mythical forefather of other Greeks.
As other Greeks they founded city states and in Architecture there is the Doric type in ancient Greek music the Dorian mode.
One of the most influental Doric city states in the cultural sense founded by Korinthians is Syracuse in Sicily.
The Doric character of this state is also shown by the fact that Syracuse was attacked by Athens in the Peloponnesian war becuase
it was an ally of the Spartans.

Archimidis was born in Syracuse and his works are written in Doric Greek.

There are the Dorian dialects of Ancient Greek.
And for example i think Salentine Greek is related to Doric Greek

[Ajeje Brazorf]

K47 World Calculator by Lukasz
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12788-New-K30-World-calculator/page129
Like all +100 admixtures calculators I don't think it's very accurate, but...

Peristeria4 (I9033), 1416–1280 calBCE
13.18% South-Caucasian
6.00% North-Caucasian
10.79% Paleo-Balkan
0.12% Proto-Austronesian
22.29% East-Med
21.12% West-Med
1.51% SW-Euro
1.15% Arabic
0.03% East-Euro
9.45% North-Sea_Germanic
6.52% Celtic
0.73% West-African
1.09% Kushitic
1.06% Sahelian
0.34% Scando-Germanic
0.70% Iranian
3.92% North-African

Galatas19 (I9010), 15th to early 12th century BCE
4.77% South-Caucasian
10.57% Paleo-Balkan
25.84% East-Med
23.68% West-Med
9.31% SW-Euro
7.44% Arabic
0.28% East-Euro
6.59% North-Sea_Germanic
0.09% Celtic
4.27% Iranian
5.86% North-African
1.29% Pamirian

Galatas4 (I9041), 15th to early 12th century BCE
13.87% South-Caucasian
5.24% North-Caucasian
10.61% Paleo-Balkan
20.09% East-Med
19.29% West-Med
9.08% SW-Euro
2.98% Arabic
4.02% North-Sea_Germanic
5.42% Celtic
0.19% Scando-Germanic
5.94% Iranian
3.28% North-African

Salamis31 (I9006), 1411–1262 calBCE
8.81% South-Caucasian
9.80% North-Caucasian
13.78% Paleo-Balkan
21.09% East-Med
21.71% West-Med
3.73% SW-Euro
7.61% Arabic
0.11% East-Euro
0.12% Volgan
0.50% North-Sea_Germanic
3.18% Celtic
0.73% Scando-Germanic
3.26% Iranian
1.12% Baltic
3.84% North-African
0.49% West-Amazonian
0.10% Pamirian

Lasithi4 (I0071), 2400-1700 BCE
21.71% South-Caucasian
8.68% Paleo-Balkan
36.30% East-Med
22.81% West-Med
4.92% SW-Euro
3.64% Arabic
0.01% Iranian
1.66% South-African_HG
0.15% North-African
0.12% Papuan

Lasithi7 (I0073), 2400-1700 BCE
17.84% South-Caucasian
17.75% Paleo-Balkan
24.08% East-Med
29.10% West-Med
3.24% SW-Euro
4.32% Arabic
0.07% Iranian
3.32% North-African

Lasithi9 (I0074), 2400-1700 BCE
16.67% South-Caucasian
14.91% Paleo-Balkan
21.57% East-Med
27.26% West-Med
7.82% SW-Euro
8.45% Arabic
0.21% Iranian
2.99% North-African

Lasithi17 (I9005), 2400-1700 BCE
13.50% South-Caucasian
12.01% Paleo-Balkan
29.02% East-Med
24.78% West-Med
9.12% SW-Euro
9.39% Arabic
0.01% North-Sea_Germanic (lol)
2.17% North-African

Lasithi2 (I0070), 2400-1700 BCE
14.02% South-Caucasian
0.04% North-Caucasian
11.50% Paleo-Balkan
24.49% East-Med
31.15% West-Med
5.43% SW-Euro
10.75% Arabic
2.18% North-African
0.42% Papuan
0.22% West-Amazonian

Neapolitan
4.10% North-Iberian
6.99% East-Iberian
4.01% North-African
11.07% South-Caucasian
1.95% North-Caucasian
5.95% Paleo-Balkan
14.31% East-Med
4.61% Arabic
6.74% East-Euro
8.32% North-Sea_Germanic
3.19% Celtic
1.84% West-Finnic
0.44% Scando-Germanic
4.70% Iranian
2.34% Baltic
13.63% West-Med
5.81% Central-Med

[nightrider+]

Paleo-Balkan

What is this exactly? Where does it peak?

[Voskos]

K47 World Calculator by Lukasz
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12788-New-K30-World-calculator/page129
Like all +100 admixtures calculators I don't think it's very accurate, but...

Peristeria4 (I9033), 1416–1280 calBCE
13.18% South-Caucasian
6.00% North-Caucasian
10.79% Paleo-Balkan
0.12% Proto-Austronesian
22.29% East-Med
21.12% West-Med
1.51% SW-Euro
1.15% Arabic
0.03% East-Euro
9.45% North-Sea_Germanic
6.52% Celtic
0.73% West-African
1.09% Kushitic
1.06% Sahelian
0.34% Scando-Germanic
0.70% Iranian
3.92% North-African

Galatas19 (I9010), 15th to early 12th century BCE
4.77% South-Caucasian
10.57% Paleo-Balkan
25.84% East-Med
23.68% West-Med
9.31% SW-Euro
7.44% Arabic
0.28% East-Euro
6.59% North-Sea_Germanic
0.09% Celtic
4.27% Iranian
5.86% North-African
1.29% Pamirian

Galatas4 (I9041), 15th to early 12th century BCE
13.87% South-Caucasian
5.24% North-Caucasian
10.61% Paleo-Balkan
20.09% East-Med
19.29% West-Med
9.08% SW-Euro
2.98% Arabic
4.02% North-Sea_Germanic
5.42% Celtic
0.19% Scando-Germanic
5.94% Iranian
3.28% North-African

Salamis31 (I9006), 1411–1262 calBCE
8.81% South-Caucasian
9.80% North-Caucasian
13.78% Paleo-Balkan
21.09% East-Med
21.71% West-Med
3.73% SW-Euro
7.61% Arabic
0.11% East-Euro
0.12% Volgan
0.50% North-Sea_Germanic
3.18% Celtic
0.73% Scando-Germanic
3.26% Iranian
1.12% Baltic
3.84% North-African
0.49% West-Amazonian
0.10% Pamirian

Lasithi4 (I0071), 2400-1700 BCE
21.71% South-Caucasian
8.68% Paleo-Balkan
36.30% East-Med
22.81% West-Med
4.92% SW-Euro
3.64% Arabic
0.01% Iranian
1.66% South-African_HG
0.15% North-African
0.12% Papuan

Lasithi7 (I0073), 2400-1700 BCE
17.84% South-Caucasian
17.75% Paleo-Balkan
24.08% East-Med
29.10% West-Med
3.24% SW-Euro
4.32% Arabic
0.07% Iranian
3.32% North-African

Lasithi9 (I0074), 2400-1700 BCE
16.67% South-Caucasian
14.91% Paleo-Balkan
21.57% East-Med
27.26% West-Med
7.82% SW-Euro
8.45% Arabic
0.21% Iranian
2.99% North-African

Lasithi17 (I9005), 2400-1700 BCE
13.50% South-Caucasian
12.01% Paleo-Balkan
29.02% East-Med
24.78% West-Med
9.12% SW-Euro
9.39% Arabic
0.01% North-Sea_Germanic (lol)
2.17% North-African

Lasithi2 (I0070), 2400-1700 BCE
14.02% South-Caucasian
0.04% North-Caucasian
11.50% Paleo-Balkan
24.49% East-Med
31.15% West-Med
5.43% SW-Euro
10.75% Arabic
2.18% North-African
0.42% Papuan
0.22% West-Amazonian

Neapolitan
4.10% North-Iberian
6.99% East-Iberian
4.01% North-African
11.07% South-Caucasian
1.95% North-Caucasian
5.95% Paleo-Balkan
14.31% East-Med
4.61% Arabic
6.74% East-Euro
8.32% North-Sea_Germanic
3.19% Celtic
1.84% West-Finnic
0.44% Scando-Germanic
4.70% Iranian
2.34% Baltic
13.63% West-Med
5.81% Central-Med

My scores:
12.63% South-Caucasian
2.09% North-Caucasian
7.04% Paleo-Balkan
19.74% East-Med
13.25% West-Med
6.62% SW-Euro
8.40% Arabic
3.09% East-Euro
0.05% Volgan
4.14% North-Sea_Germanic
5.27% Celtic
1.00% West-Finnic
0.53% Scando-Germanic
8.36% Iranian
3.46% Baltic
3.51% North-African
0.68% Papuan
0.13% Pamirian

[Jana]

What is this exactly? Where does it peak?

In Albanians if I'm not mistaken.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

In Albanians if I'm not mistaken.

Yea it's Albanians.

[nightrider+]

^
Interesting, because it might point at the Northern/Steppe admixture of Mycenaeans (compared to Minoans) being older in the Balkans and not due to some Bronze Age migration.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

^
Interesting, because it might point at the Northern/Steppe admixture of Mycenaeans (compared to Minoans) being older in the Balkans and not due to some Bronze Age migration.

Do you mean Paleo-Balkan? That component is Albanian, it has been simply renamed and called Paleo-Balkan. These calculators are not good very accurate btw.

[Sikeliot]

What I was trying to say is, modern southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Sicilians plot closer to modern Levantines than do Mycenaeans. Even mainland Greeks today do. So does that not mean increased Levantine ancestry at the expense of something Sardinian-like?

[trebil]

What I was trying to say is, modern southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Sicilians plot closer to modern Levantines than do Mycenaeans. Even mainland Greeks today do. So does that not mean increased Levantine ancestry at the expense of something Sardinian-like?

increase of steppe and chg and decrease of west med

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What I was trying to say is, modern southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Sicilians plot closer to modern Levantines than do Mycenaeans. Even mainland Greeks today do. So does that not mean increased Levantine ancestry at the expense of something Sardinian-like?

Bidimensional PCAs are misleading and do not show all the genetic difference, we are pulled down because of our higher West Asian, Red Sea and lower Atlantic, West Med. Don't let me repeat this again, please. Mycenaeans are not very Sardinian like but more intermediary between Greeks/South Italians and Sardinians. One of the Mycenaeans even had the Lebanese in the oracle, the fact I have Bulgarians or Romanians in my oracle doesn't mean I descend from them, but only means we share something in common. Even north Italians are closer to Iberians than to south Italians, but this doesn't fucking mean they are half Iberians or something like that, got it?

[Tauromachos]

the fact I have Bulgarians or Romanians in my oracle doesn't mean I descend from them, but only means we share something in common. Even north Italians are closer to Iberians than to south Italians, but this doesn't fucking mean they are half Iberians or something like that, got it?

Exactly
Same way that the fact that Greeks and Italians often have Jews in their top populations deosn't mean they descend from them neither.
This has to be understood because there seems to be alot of misconceptions about that

[nightrider+]

Do you mean Paleo-Balkan? That component is Albanian, it has been simply renamed and called Paleo-Balkan. These calculators are not good very accurate btw.

I know. Looking at it now, a difference between Mycenaeans and Minoans seems to be the North-Sea_Germanic and the Celtic, so Paleo_Balkan is kinda irrelevant.


Bidimensional PCAs are misleading and do not show all the genetic difference, we are pulled down because of our higher West Asian, Red Sea and lower Atlantic, West Med. Don't let me repeat this again, please. Mycenaeans are not very Sardinian like but more intermediary between Greeks/South Italians and Sardinians. One of the Mycenaeans even had the Lebanese in the oracle, the fact I have Bulgarians or Romanians in my oracle doesn't mean I descend from them, but only means we share something in common. Even north Italians are closer to Iberians than to south Italians, but this doesn't fucking mean they are half Iberians or something like that, got it?

That's not really accurate either.

https://i.imgur.com/aqf0lQL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VkwLkqP.png

Sardinians generally should be left out of it.

[Sikeliot]

I wish there was the Bell Beaker Sicilian sample, because that should have been close to Mycenaeans but less Steppe.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I wish there was the Bell Beaker Sicilian sample, because that should have been close to Mycenaeans but less Steppe.

It'd be great if we had some ancient DNA from the south, that Bell Beaker from Sicily would aurely plot very close to Trapani ;)

[Scholarios]

This stuff is all bullshit

Read this articles
https://www.thenationalherald.com/181104/modern-greeks-dna-similar-mycenaeans-minoans-study-finds/
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals
And watch this video in case you understand Greek at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEqC3JDx9E

horse shit, wipe your ass with it, faggot.

[Tauromachos]

horse shit, wipe your ass with it, faggot.

This is horse shit^

[Sikeliot]

It'd be great if we had some ancient DNA from the south, that Bell Beaker from Sicily would aurely plot very close to Trapani ;)

Trapani has more Steppe than anything ancient could have had.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Trapani has more Steppe than anything ancient could have had.

It doesn't actually.