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Lek
03-30-2018, 03:45 PM
The Croatians and Bosnians are more close to East European populations and largely overlap with Hungarians from Central Europe, while Kosovars and Macedonians cluster closer to Eastern Balkan populations and Gagauzes (Figures 3 and ​and5).5). Interestingly, the Gagauzes, who geographically locate in East Europe, are more similar to Eastern and Western Balkan populations according to their autosomal profiles (Figure 2, ​,33 and ​and5)5) than to East Europeans. This agrees with the earlier study of the NRY variation suggesting that the Gagauzes descend from northeastern Bulgaria [58]. The Kosovars deviate the most from other Western Balkan populations – note, that among those they have also the biggest similarity to Greeks (Figures 1, ​,33 and ​and5).5). Serbians and Montenegrins have an intermediate position on PCA plot and on Fst –based network among other Western Balkan populations (Figures 3 and ​and5).5). The relative position of Western Balkan populations to each other on the PCA plot does not considerably change in any combination of first five PC-s







To assess potential admixture between Western Balkan and Middle Eastern populations during the Ottoman rule (15–19cc AD) we first analyzed the number of ibd segments shared per one pair for Western Balkan and Middle Eastern populations. In average, both Muslim (Bosniacs, Kosovars) and non-Muslim (Bosnian Croats and Serbs, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbians and Croatians) of the Western Balkan populations share around 1.5 ibd segments per pair with the population from the Middle East (Table S4). This is significantly lower than around 7 ibd segments per pair that Bosniacs and Kosovars share with other non-Muslim WB populations (Figure 7, Table S4). Next, we inspected the average total length of genome shared identical by descent in cM for four length classes between Muslim and non-Muslim populations of Western Balkan vs Middle Eastern populations. We found that all tested Western Balkan populations, irrespective their ethno religious affiliations, demonstrate similar (p = 0.1–0.9) patterns of ibd sharing with Middle Eastern populations for shorter classes of ibd segments (1–2, 2–3, 3–4 cM). This is slightly higher with Turks, and lower with Saudis, Syrians, Iranians and Palestinians (Figure S12). For longer ibd segments only Kosovars have higher ibd relatedness with Palestinians (p = 0.0056 for 4–5 cM ibd segments) and only Bosniacs have higher ibd sharing with Turks (p = 0.0097 for 5–6 cM ibd segments) (Figure S12). However, taking into account that in general the number of shared ibd segments longer than 4 cM detected between Bosniacs, Kosovars and Middle Eastern populations is very low and that higher ibd sharing is not seen for other classes of ibd segments, we cannot consider the excess of long ibd segments between Bosniacs and Turks, and between Kosovars and Palestinians as sufficient evidence of stronger gene flow between Middle Eastern populations and Muslim populations of Western Balkan as compared to non-Muslim Western Balkan populations.

Taken together, analysis of ibd segments reveals similar patterns of ibd sharing for Muslim and non-Muslim Western Balkan populations with populations of Middle East, providing thereby little support to a gene flow scenario during the conversion to Islam (15–19 cc AD) in the Balkans. Our analysis of ibd sharing agrees with other analyses (Figures 2, ​,3,3, ​,5)5) which indicate higher relatedness for all the Western Balkan populations and Turks as compared to other Middle Eastern populations, most likely due to geographic proximity.









The results of the analysis of mtDNA and NRY are presented in Text S2 and in Supplementary Material (Tables S5-S10, Figures S13-S21). The detailed phylogenetic analysis of maternal lineages of studied here Western Balkan populations (see Tables S5 and Figures S14-18, Text S2) revealed their branching patterns, deeply connected with those of other European and Middle Eastern populations. Like in autosomal analysis, we found only some rare genetic variants from our sample that are not common in European populations. We detected one [0,6% (with 95% credible region (CR) width 0,1–3,1%)] maternal lineage of Eastern Eurasian origin from hg D4 in our sample of Montenegrins (Table S5). Lineages of Eastern Eurasian macrohg M, occasionally seen in many European populations [59] has been detected also in Western Balkan area [29], [30], [33], [39]. An equally minor part [1,1% (CR 0,4–4,0%)] of mtDNAs belong to the set of African origin - two samples of hg L1b was found, one from Serbian and the other from Bosnian Croat population (Table S5). The presence of the same haplotype as well as another African lineage L2a3 has been observed in the region, among Bosnians [29] and Croatians from Korcula island [30], respectively. Outside Africa, the African-specific lineages are the most frequent in populations of the Iberian Peninsula and the Near East, which have experienced the strongest influence of African populations during their history [60], [61]. Regardless, the overall frequency of African lineages in Eurasia [62] is the same as in our sample. The Atlantic slave trade through Portugal, which was the principal destination within Europe [60] and/or the trafficking of African children via the markets of the Ottoman Empire to East Europe in the beginning of 17th century [63] could be one of the reasons for the gene flow from the people of African ancestry to the Western Balkan region.








the results for each Western Balkan population are shown on Figure S13C and D). Here, the Western Balkan populations are closest to their Slavic-speaking neighbours both according to maternal (Czechs and Belarusians, Figure S13A) and paternal (Slovaks, Figure S13B) variation, but it has to be noted that the pooled sample is biased towards northern populations of Western Balkan (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia) and thus represents mostly the variation of this part of the study region. In autosomal analysis, the Bosnians and Croatians are closest to Hungarians, the East Europeans and Eastern Balkan populations are at the same distance from these Western Balkan populations (Figures 3 and S2, S3). East European Slavic-speakers are similar to our pooled Western Balkan sample of PCA also in mtDNA and NRY analyses (Figure S13A and B) and the Hungarians in NRY analysis (Figure S13B). The variation pattern of maternal lineages of the Eastern Balkan populations and Greeks, the most similar populations to southernmost Western Balkan populations (Kosovars, Macedonians, Montenegrins) in autosomal analyses (Figures 2 and ​and3),3), are with this sample set more close with mtDNA variation of Central European populations, Austrians and Hungarians (Figure S13A). However, the variation pattern of paternal lineages of Greeks brings them closer to Western Balkan populations, notably also to Macedonian Greeks (Figure S13B). Altogether, the results of the PCA of uniparentally inherited markers, like those of autosomal analysis, reflect mostly the importance of geographical factors on the genetic variation of the region.







the Kosovars show the closest affinities among Western Balkan populations to Greeks and other South European populations. In our ibd analysis, we also did not find evidences for specific gene flow from the Middle East to Kosovars, compared to non-Muslim populations of Western Balkan (Figure 7).






Thus, culturally diverse Western Balkan populations are genetically very similar to each other. These results, together with the high-resolution analysis of the variation of mtDNA and NRY, let us to affirm that the genetic profiles of Western Balkan populations resemble that of their closest geographical neighbors





https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4141785/#!po=22.8477

Marmara
03-30-2018, 03:50 PM
Of course there was no genetic flow. I don't know why is it even expected.

Lek
03-30-2018, 04:05 PM
Of course there was no genetic flow. I don't know why is it even expected.

According to this there seems to of been genetic flow from Africa and Asia into South Slavs or Western South Slavs , If I am reading it correct that is.

Mind you, I believe the study was done by South Slavs themselves.

Jana
03-30-2018, 04:15 PM
from the same study :)
https://i.imgur.com/AvOncqH.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/hQKO07s.jpg

Jana
03-30-2018, 04:16 PM
According to this there seems to of been genetic flow from Africa and Asia into South Slavs or Western South Slavs , If I am reading it correct that is.

Mind you, I believe the study was done by South Slavs themselves.

I think two or three individuals with African HG don't qualify for african gene flow, more like individual occurence. There is some very slight MENA and mongoloid among south slavs though.

Insuperable
03-30-2018, 04:16 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg200870

Lek
03-30-2018, 04:18 PM
I think two or three individuals with African HG don't qualify for african gene flow, more like individual occurence. There is some very slight MENA and mongoloid among south slavs though.

I know. It doesn't represent the population as a whole obviously.

Lek
03-30-2018, 04:33 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg200870

Interesting. Seemed to of reached all the way to Russia.

Jana
03-30-2018, 05:35 PM
This study is very good. I find it interesting how southeastern Europe has more genetic diversity that much more vast central and eastern Europe.

Leto
03-30-2018, 09:07 PM
Of course there was no genetic flow. I don't know why is it even expected.
Some people think the Balkans have Turkish admixture.

Marmara
03-30-2018, 09:15 PM
Some people think the Balkans have Turkish admixture.

Brainless people.

Jana
03-30-2018, 09:23 PM
Brainless people.

There is slightly higher MENA component among Bosniaks than other south-west Slavs, but it is very very small, according to this.

cyberlorian
03-30-2018, 09:45 PM
from the same study :)
https://i.imgur.com/AvOncqH.jpg?1

Interesting chart but why are Georgians so far from Russians :confused:

Jana
03-30-2018, 09:53 PM
Interesting chart but why are Georgians so far from Russians :confused:

They are not genetically related. It's very huge gap between the two groups, much higher than among Europeans.

Sikeliot
03-30-2018, 10:05 PM
from the same study :)
https://i.imgur.com/AvOncqH.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/hQKO07s.jpg


Basically what we already knew:

Cyprus is halfway between Sicily and the Levant,
Sicily is halfway between Cyprus and Greece,
Greece is halfway between Sicily and Bulgaria/Romania/Macedonia,
Bulgaria/Macedonia/Romania have more "Greek like" ancestry than do western Balkan Slavs.

Cypriots differ from Levantines in that they have a lot of Sardinian-like ancestry.. this was confirmed also by Sarno et al.

cyberlorian
03-30-2018, 10:11 PM
They are not genetically related. It's very huge gap between the two groups, much higher than among Europeans.

Interesting to see that Georgians are genetically closer to Spaniards than they are to Russians...

Leto
03-30-2018, 10:17 PM
Interesting chart but why are Georgians so far from Russians :confused:
Georgians are not even North Caucasians. They have little NE European admixture, which doesn't preclude quite a few of them from having light hair and eyes, though.

Jana
03-30-2018, 10:18 PM
Interesting to see that Georgians are genetically closer to Spaniards than they are to Russians...

Closer yes, but they are far, far from Iberians or any Europeans for that matter. They are purest west asians genetically.

cyberlorian
03-31-2018, 10:48 AM
Closer yes, but they are far, far from Iberians or any Europeans for that matter. They are purest west asians genetically.

Do you have other charts or URLs which shows the genetic distance between populations? I ask because I am pretty interested in them. :)

Jana
03-31-2018, 10:51 AM
Do you have other charts or URLs which shows the genetic distance between populations? I ask because I am pretty interested in them. :)

Here is really detailed study about balto-slavic speaking populations, in case you may be interested :)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0135820

Tauromachos
04-05-2018, 03:17 PM
Cypriots differ from Levantines in that they have a lot of Sardinian-like ancestry.. this was confirmed also by Sarno et al.

So it should be very clear that this ancestry in Cypriots comes from the Mycanaean Greeks.

Hence Cypriots are not just Hellenized Levantines

Drawing-slim
04-05-2018, 03:56 PM
How come they didnt include albania in this?!

Lek
04-05-2018, 04:03 PM
How come they didnt include albania in this?!

Discrimination.

ovidiu
04-05-2018, 09:37 PM
Basically what we already knew:

Cyprus is halfway between Sicily and the Levant,
Sicily is halfway between Cyprus and Greece,
Greece is halfway between Sicily and Bulgaria/Romania/Macedonia,
Bulgaria/Macedonia/Romania have more "Greek like" ancestry than do western Balkan Slavs.

Cypriots differ from Levantines in that they have a lot of Sardinian-like ancestry.. this was confirmed also by Sarno et al.

That makes sense. I noticed people on here make a bunch of threads comparing Serbs and Croats to Cretans when they're quite distant to each other and even the East Balkans actually have more Greek-like DNA and cluster closer. Interesting information though. Seems like a good study. I would imagine island Greeks from the Aegean are a bit separate from the mainland ones, particularly from the north?

Cypriots have to be more than just simply Hellenized Levantines. It's been part of the Greek sphere since very ancient times.

And yeah they never seem to include Albania in studies for some reason. Maybe not enough samples.

Ujku
04-05-2018, 09:45 PM
How come they didnt include albania in this?!

I was wondering the same shit...like wtf..

Jana
04-05-2018, 10:37 PM
That makes sense. I noticed people on here make a bunch of threads comparing Serbs and Croats to Cretans

:confused:

Drawing-slim
04-05-2018, 10:47 PM
Discrimination.

More like fear and insecurity. This is because during communism Albania has created an image to all yugoslav republics that only illyrian country in the world is albania so this has put fear and insecurity even into today’s croat scientists which most likely grew up during that time period watching albanian/illyrian parades on tv.

https://youtu.be/4a5yMBR3m9o

Lek
04-05-2018, 10:52 PM
More like fear and insecurity. This is because during communism Albania has created an image to all yugoslav republics that only illyrian country in the world is albania so this has put fear and insecurity even into today’s croat scientists which most likely grew up during that time period watching albanian/illyrian parades on tv.

https://youtu.be/4a5yMBR3m9o

Hahahahahahahaha

Jana
04-05-2018, 10:55 PM
More like fear and insecurity. This is because during communism Albania has created an image to all yugoslav republics that only illyrian country in the world is albania so this has put fear and insecurity even into today’s croat scientists which most likely grew up during that time period watching albanian/illyrian parades on tv.

https://youtu.be/4a5yMBR3m9o

We used Illyrian name much before Albanians. Croatian language in medieval times was called Illyrian language, and Napoleon named Croatian lands Illyrian provinces after he conquered them.
I have no problems with fact that Illyrians are Albo's ancestors, but this name is part of our identity for centuries. Learn to share.

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:01 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Croatian_College_of_St._Jerome
The Pontifical Croatian College of St. Jerome (Croatian: Papinski hrvatski zavod svetog Jeronima; Italian: Pontificio Collegio Croato Di San Girolamo a Roma; Latin: Pontificium Collegium Croaticum Sancti Hieronymi) is a Catholic college, church and a society in the city of Rome intended for the schooling of South Slav clerics.

Sixtus V rebuilt the Church of Saint Jerome (finished 1589), to be used specifically for the people who spoke the Illyrian language, referring to Slavs from the eastern Adriatic, Dalmatia and Boka Kotorska.

Drawing-slim
04-05-2018, 11:02 PM
We used Illyrian name much before Albanians. Croatian language in medieval times was clalled Illyrian language, and Napoleon named Croatian lands Illyrian provinces after he conquered them.
I have no problems with fact that Illyrians are Albo's ancestors, but this name is part of our identity for centuries. Learn to share.
Im just saying the affect that our dictator Hoxha has had on all yugoslav republics psychologically.
When i was travleing from zagreb to sarajevo this croatian girl older generation very educated we started chatting alway to banjaluka on he bus, and she herself stated that “you albanians” are the true illyrians.

Kelmendasi
04-05-2018, 11:04 PM
We used Illyrian name much before Albanians. Croatian language in medieval times was called Illyrian language, and Napoleon named Croatian lands Illyrian provinces after he conquered them.
I have no problems with fact that Illyrians are Albo's ancestors, but this name is part of our identity for centuries. Learn to share.
Yh but the Croatians used it thinking that they came from Illyrians iirc, so they misused it. It's like Africans who claim themselves to be Egyptian just because they think they stem from them

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:05 PM
Im just saying the affect that our dictator Hoxha has had on all yugoslav republics.
When i was travleing from zagreb to sarajevo this croatian girl very educated we atarted chatting alway to banjaluka on he bus, and she herself stated that “you albanians” are the true illyrians.

I agree with that, Croats are Slavs. But, I don't think Albanians are only Illyrian. I think they have Thracian influence too, Dardania for example was transitional zone between Illyrian and Thracian lands, their affiliation isn't known.
Thing is that we used Illyrian name in sort of historic continuity, tradition, rather than claiming ancient descent.

I'm proud of both Slavic and Illyrian side :thumb001:

Lek
04-05-2018, 11:06 PM
We used Illyrian name much before Albanians. Croatian language in medieval times was called Illyrian language, and Napoleon named Croatian lands Illyrian provinces after he conquered them.
I have no problems with fact that Illyrians are Albo's ancestors, but this name is part of our identity for centuries. Learn to share.

So if I use the name Chinese this makes me Chinese?

Kelmendasi
04-05-2018, 11:06 PM
I agree with that, Croats are Slavs. But, I don't think Albanians are only Illyrian. I think they have Thracian influence too, Dardania for example was transitional zone between Illyrian and Thracian lands, their affiliation isn't known.
Thing is that we used Illyrian name in sort of historic continuity, tradition, rather than claiming ancient descent.

I'm proud of both Slavic and Illyrian side :thumb001:
I thought it was the other way round

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:07 PM
Yh but the Croatians used it thinking that they came from Illyrians iirc, so they misused it. It's like Africans who claim themselves to be Egyptian just because they think they stem from them

No, there is no misuse, why did you compare with with Africans who do that onh purpose, when Croats are clalled Illyrians by Italians since 16th century or sooner ?
Everbody knows our homeland is in the north, but our state was born in ancient Illyria and that's where the link comes from.

Lek
04-05-2018, 11:07 PM
I agree with that, Croats are Slavs. But, I don't think Albanians are only Illyrian. I think they have Thracian influence too, Dardania for example was transitional zone between Illyrian and Thracian lands, their affiliation isn't known.
Thing is that we used Illyrian name in sort of historic continuity, tradition, rather than claiming ancient descent.

I'm proud of both Slavic and Illyrian side :thumb001:

I know Croats have Ilyrian ancestry but more like a Slavic - Ilyrian mix.

Lek
04-05-2018, 11:09 PM
No, there is no misuse, why did you compare with with Africans who do that onh purpose, when Croats are clalled Illyrians by Italians since 16th century or sooner ?
Everbody knows our homeland is in the north, but our state was born in ancient Illyria and that's where the link comes from.

Those were just geographical references. They asumed the people living there are 100% identical to the ancient ones.

This also started Ilyrian movement etc. Just people with identity crisis really.

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:09 PM
So if I use the name Chinese this makes me Chinese?

What is the relation ?

Kelmendasi
04-05-2018, 11:09 PM
No, there is no misuse, why did you compare with with Africans who do that onh purpose, when Croats are clalled Illyrians by Italians since 16th century or sooner ?
Everbody knows our homeland is in the north, but our state was born in ancient Illyria and that's where the link comes from.
There are Africans who truly believe that they are Egyptian trust me. I still don't think that an Illyrian identity should be used as it's misleading, just like how the Macedonian identity is a bit misleading and controversial

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:12 PM
Those were just geographical references. They asumed the people living there are 100% identical to the ancient ones.
I don't believe they did. Slavic migrations have been recorded by all important historians, from Franks to Byzantines. And Italians had to know Illyrians weren't slavic speakers.

They called it Illyrian because in that mind east adriatic shore will always remain ancient Roman province of Dalmatia-Illyricum. No matter who lives there.

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:14 PM
There are Africans who truly believe that they are Egyptian trust me. I still don't think that an Illyrian identity should be used as it's misleading, just like how the Macedonian identity is a bit misleading and controversial

Illyrian identity in Croatia doesn't exist. If you mean Illyrian movement, that was actually nationalist Pan-Slav movement which is really funny xD

Kelmendasi
04-05-2018, 11:15 PM
Illyrian identity in Croatia doesn't exist. If you mean Illyrian movement, that was actually nationalist Pan-Slav movement which is really funny xD
Yh that's what I meant

Lek
04-05-2018, 11:19 PM
I don't believe they did. Slavic migrations have been recorded by all important historians, from Franks to Byzantines. And Italians had to know Illyrians weren't slavic speakers.

They called it Illyrian because in that mind east adriatic shore will always remain ancient Roman province of Dalmatia-Illyricum. No matter who lives there.

If you want to believe you are Ilyrians be my guest. It doesnt bother me. What is bothersome is when people use it for political motives. That's it.

Don't really give a care about Ilirians :)

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:20 PM
Yh that's what I meant

Well, that is indeed result of ignorance of that times. But make no mistake, they did not take such name suddenly in 19th century, it was just continuity of centuries old tradition how foreigners called us.
It' similar like 19th century ealy slavic linguist maps that show Croats as Catholic Serbs, despite people here have never been Serb. There was never Illyrian identity either.

That comes from church writings most probably. I gave example from Vatican. Church was only thing that kept continuity from Illyrian to Croat Dalmatia, and they are most likely those who gave such identification.

Jana
04-05-2018, 11:24 PM
If you want to believe you are Ilyrians be my guest. It doesnt bother me. What is bothersome is when people use it for political motives. That's it.

Don't really give a care about Ilirians :)

I would like to know more about them. They are really interesing.

Lek
04-05-2018, 11:32 PM
I would like to know more about them. They are really interesing.

Yeah but there isn't much left of them. I would like also to know more about language. Especially Dardanians. But its whatever.

Drawing-slim
04-06-2018, 03:44 AM
I agree with that, Croats are Slavs. But, I don't think Albanians are only Illyrian. I think they have Thracian influence too, Dardania for example was transitional zone between Illyrian and Thracian lands, their affiliation isn't known.
Thing is that we used Illyrian name in sort of historic continuity, tradition, rather than claiming ancient descent.

I'm proud of both Slavic and Illyrian side :thumb001:
No worries my croatian friend. I am one of the most illyrian by blood/autosomal dna while having I2a paternal lineage which means you have the best representative agend to defend your pride deep inside illyria,lol