Why Islam is not compatible with Albanians

[ShenGjergj]

This isn't a troll thread but i'm here in order to understand the logic of the Albanians calling themselves and proud being "Muslim".
Albanians and especially "Muslim" Albanians must be aware that calling themselves "Albanians" means worshipping the Albanian flag.

What's the meaning of the Albanian flag?

The Albanian flag is very old, the same flag and the same double head eagle was used by the Christian Albanian lord Gjergj Kastrioti in the 15th century during his crusades against the Ottomans. It doesn't matter from where he did took this symbol this is not the point of this thread here. But the Albanian flag itself represent the Christianity and the struggle against the Islam.

https://kurbini.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/1601118_263653013813334_6254627888854513241_n1.jpg ?w=620

Who was Gjergj Kastrioti?

Called "Skanderbeg" by the Ottoman ennemies, also "Atleta Christi" for some others he was the son of Gjon Kastrioti who was buried in Orthodox saint place in Mount Athos.


Now i'm asking myself, isn't it a paradox calling himself "Muslim" and "Albanian" at the same time? And if we christians are "serbo-grek" as i have read more than once written by the muslim extremists then who are they?

[htcfan1]

I have question for you. What do Orthodox Albanians think of Serbs or Montenegrins?

[ShenGjergj]

I have question for you. What do Orthodox Albanians think of Serbs or Montenegrins?

In general they don't care not sympathy neither hate. Personally i hate the serbs. Montenegrins are on serbian side but sometimes you can find some good montenegrins even thought it's not common.

[Bornoz]

Islam is not but Christianity is :thumb001:

[Voskos]

For sure albanian muslims are different from non european ones. In MENA countries it's almost impossible to see a wife of muslim background with a christian husband(and even the other way around) and when it happens it causes mayhem in their social circle.

[Kelmendasi]

Personally I don't believe we are compatible with any religion, we always change our faith over the slightest of things.

[Wrong]

For sure albanian muslims are different from non european ones. In MENA countries it's almost impossible to see a wife of muslim background with a christian husband(and even the other way around) and when it happens it causes mayhem in their social circle.
Yeah. There's a rule in the Quran which disallows Muslim women wedding Christian men, but the reverse is allowed.

Among Albanians this rule was disregarded/ignored anyway:

This Catholic Mirditor is an example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bib_Doda
He got married to a Muslim woman, Hide (daughter of Hasan Ajazi), from Armalle village in the Lurë (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lur%C3%AB) region

[Lek]

I'm not much of fan of either. Both are fairytale bullshit. Would never expose my children to such nonsense.

[Bornoz]

I'm not much of fan of either. Both are fairytale bullshit. Would never expose my children to such nonsense.

This is the thing that I wanna see.

[HERK]

This is the thing that I wanna see.

Dont trust him, he is lying. He will get his ass beat by his family if he sais that openly or he may find himself forced to go and pray everyday.

[Böri]

Kastrioti was from a Catholic class which changed sectarian identity under Venetian imperialist influence. The original religion of Albanians was Orthodox. Most Albanians later left the path of Orthodoxy to become Muslim and Catholic.

[Sean-Jobst]

Neither Islam nor Christianity are truly compatible with the Albanians. This is why there is generally so much coexistence and intermarriage among both nominally Muslim and Christian Albanians. Its also the reason why the Albanians received both religions, but modified each to suit their own nature and mixed it with many of their ancient traditions. It is in the name of Islam that both Turkish organizations tied to the Islamist AKP government and their Gulen rivals (both with a neo-Ottoman perspective rather than Turkish nationalist) and smaller Wahhabi organizations tied to wealthy Gulf Arab sheikhs and petrodollars, are buying up influence and seeking to change the culture in Albania. But I would likewise advise Christian Albanians to likewise maintain their own independence.

I say this as an admirer and friend of the Albanians, given my three week stay in Shqiperia which left me with a positive view of Albanians and Albanian culture. And as one who has returned to the ancient indigenous spiritual traditions of his own Germanic and Celtiberian ancestors, I would similarly advise Albanians to look back into the traditions and heritage of the ancient Illyrians-Pelasgians. Look back to the roots of many of your traditions, whether it is practiced as Sunni, Catholic, Orthodox or Bektashi, and you will see it predates any of those religions coming to Albanian soil.

[Kelmendasi]

Neither Islam nor Christianity are truly compatible with the Albanians. This is why there is generally so much coexistence and intermarriage among both nominally Muslim and Christian Albanians. Its also the reason why the Albanians received both religions, but modified each to suit their own nature and mixed it with many of their ancient traditions. It is in the name of Islam that both Turkish organizations tied to the Islamist AKP government and their Gulen rivals (both with a neo-Ottoman perspective rather than Turkish nationalist) and smaller Wahhabi organizations tied to wealthy Gulf Arab sheikhs and petrodollars, are buying up influence and seeking to change the culture in Albania. But I would likewise advise Christian Albanians to likewise maintain their own independence.

I say this as an admirer and friend of the Albanians, given my three week stay in Shqiperia which left me with a positive view of Albanians and Albanian culture. And as one who has returned to the ancient indigenous spiritual traditions of his own Germanic and Celtiberian ancestors, I would similarly advise Albanians to look back into the traditions and heritage of the ancient Illyrians-Pelasgians. Look back to the roots of many of your traditions, whether it is practiced as Sunni, Catholic, Orthodox or Bektashi, and you will see it predates any of those religions coming to Albanian soil.
This

[Trilecce]

For sure albanian muslims are different from non european ones. In MENA countries it's almost impossible to see a wife of muslim background with a christian husband(and even the other way around) and when it happens it causes mayhem in their social circle.

In Albania you will see the daughter of a hodja (imam) marry a catholic albanian, with the fathers blessing.

[RenaRyuguu]

They were forced to be that. There's Catholic Albanians tho

[MagnusDark]

No religion is really compatible to Albanians because Albanians have problems with rules and authority. We like absolute freedom to some extent. However, in terms of survival it as well as Catholicism were instrumental in preventing the complete assimilation of Albanians. Being Muslim and Catholic prevented assimilation tactics that our Orthodox brothers in the north and south suffered. Greek and Slavic Orthodox Albanians suffered greatly with assimilation. Before Zogu declared himself king, the powers almost split us up between Greece and Serbia. Whereas, Albanian Catholic and Muslim groups preserved their identities a little bit better, as is natural considering the lack of neighboring powers using religion to assimilate as in the case of Orthodox Albanians. At least that was back then.

Most Albanians were and always have been moderate or irreligious with any faith they are apart of. Religion is not a kryptonite for us as it is for our neighbors.

[Vojnik]

Agreed that Albanians should revert back to Christianity. Disagree that a Christian should worship a flag of any kind.

[Vojnik]

They were forced to be that. There's Catholic Albanians tho

Alot were forced, many refused. Albanians converted because they wanted benefits.

[Hulu]

Agreed that Albanians should revert back to Christianity. Disagree that a Christian should worship a flag of any kind.

We were never truly Christian. Nor Muslim. As several posters have mentioned here I don't think we are compatible with any religion. Our brain operates on an independent level and religions require submissive minds.

[Vojnik]

We were never truly Christian. Nor Muslim. As several posters have mentioned here I don't think we are compatible with any religion. Our brain operates on an independent level and religions require submissive minds.

True. Christianity requires a global mindset. This means inclusion of people no matter what race, ethnicity. Albanians would not like that.

[MagnusDark]

True. Christianity requires a global mindset. This means inclusion of people no matter what race, ethnicity. Albanians would not like that.

What you mean to say is sheep mindset. No one need adhere to any religion to believe in God/be a good person or even have a global mindset. Religion is for those who have a hard time independently thinking and trusting themselves.

Of course you would like for Albanians to all become Orthodox, it would make your assimilation tactics much easier. "Global" mindsets and all...

[Vojnik]

What you mean to say is sheep mindset. No one need adhere to any religion to believe in God/be a good person or even have a global mindset. Religion is for those who have a hard time independently thinking and trusting themselves.

Of course you would like for Albanians to all become Orthodox, it would make your assimilation tactics much easier. "Global" mindsets and all...

You need to believe in Jesus as Lord and saviour to get into heaven.

Nothing to do with your assimilation paranoia fantasies.

[MagnusDark]

You need to believe in Jesus as Lord and saviour to get into heaven.

Nothing to do with your assimilation paranoia fantasies.

Keep telling yourself that man made organized religions/dictates are qualifiers for God's grace and mercy. The only thing that gets you into heaven is good deeds coupled with Gods mercy. This is alien to you religious lot though, otherwise if it was your first cornerstone, the world would be less shitty. Apparently just need to have a membership to be saved. Hitler must make the cut before a deist saint I guess. Hogwash.

It's not paranoia. It is well known how the Greek and Serbian Orthodox churches have assimilated Albanians, and even Vlachs. Catholicism & Islam were part of what prevented complete assimilation and breakup of Albanian lands and identity.

[Hulu]

You need to believe in Jesus as Lord and saviour to get into heaven.

Nothing to do with your assimilation paranoia fantasies.


Keep telling yourself that man made organized religions/dictates are qualifiers for God's grace and mercy. The only thing that gets you into heaven is good deeds. This is alien to you religious lot though, otherwise if it was your first cornerstone, the world would be less shitty. Apparently just need to have a membership to be saved. Hogwash.

It's not paranoia. It is well known how the Greek and Serbian Orthodox churches have assimilated Albanians, and even Vlachs. Catholicism & Islam were part of what prevented complete assimilation and breakup of Albanian lands and identity.

Sorry guys, there's no heaven. Or hell.

[Voskos]

It is well known how the Greek and Serbian Orthodox churches have assimilated Albanians, and even Vlachs.

What about all the bulgarian and vlach and serbian muslims who got albanized?

[MagnusDark]

What about all the bulgarian and vlach and serbian muslims who got albanized?

Ottomanized, then Albanized at the turn of the century.

[MagnusDark]

Sorry guys, there's no heaven. Or hell.

Thats your right to believe, despite there being no evidence for or against it. Thats the thing with freedom organized religion doesn't understand. You're free to believe what you will. I am not your judge.

[RenaRyuguu]

They should all make peace and move to their own territory. Peace.

[Uski]

Personally, im a cultural sunni Muslim, and i wish to declare that on the census,i have my doubts sometimes
but i know if i raised my kids atheist or deist preferably, they would marry into macedonians, thus destroying their albanianess.

Slavs and greeks will never understand that nation goes before religion for us. I want to see a Muslim Greek in Greece, or better a community of Catholic Serbs in serbia.
If Albanians never became Muslim, the VAST majority would have been Slavicized or Grecofied. So thank Allah for that��

[itilvolga]

Personally, im a cultural sunni Muslim, and i wish to declare that on the census,i have my doubts sometimes
but i know if i raised my kids atheist or deist preferably, they would marry into macedonians, thus destroying their albanianess.

Slavs and greeks will never understand that nation goes before religion for us. I want to see a Muslim Greek in Greece, or better a community of Catholic Serbs in serbia.
If Albanians never became Muslim, the VAST majority would have been Slavicized or Grecofied. So thank Allah for that��

But due to religion, they can prefer to marry a Bosnian or Turk as well. If you raise your children with nationalism, you will not have such problem no matter what they believe in.

[The Great Uniter]

But due to religion, they can prefer to marry a Bosnian or Turk as well. If you raise your children with nationalism, you will not have such problem no matter what they believe in.

"can"

Fortunately, they actually don't.

[itilvolga]

"can"

Fortunately, they actually don't.

in Turkey, they do.

[The Great Uniter]

in Turkey, they do.

No, they in truth not actual Albanians, they are traitors. You are gravely mistaken.

[Uski]

No, they in truth not actual Albanians, they are traitors. You are gravely mistaken.

Depends, Here in Macedonia Turks,Torbesis and Bosniaks intermarry with Albanians, and they end up assimilating into albanians.

On the other hand, The southern sandzak region in serbia and mnt, spoke albanian and considered themselves as such. Yet they married with bosniak women and were made to take slavic surnamed endings, same thing in Bar montenegro, Plav and Gusinje and rozaje.

Some muslim albanians in greece were shipped to turkey because as muslims they were "turk" in 1923. Another pop exchange happened in 1953-7 in Yugoslavian Macedonia, albanians declared themselves Turk and went there for a better life. Better Turk than Slav is a saying.

However Orthodox albanians assimilated way easier in comparison, and i mean who can blame them, their churches were greek and Slavic until 1922

[Uski]

Also itilvolga, in serbia they say "better to be tortured by a turk than to be taught by a latin"

Serbs can confirm this.

but yeah muslim albanians, are harder to assimilate, but Bektashis? Impossible

[Div]

Ok, this will take a bit..

[Div]

I've been thinking about this topic for a long time, and while I am originally from an Orthodox background. My family were very pious Bektashi Muslims, and I also have a maternal great-granduncle who was a Hoxha. So I know a bit about how Islam relates to Albania, I also thinkin Muslim Albanians are cool.

With all things related to Albania, you must look at history and see how it originated. Face it, Catholicism and Islam are foreign to Albania. Catholicism was actually originally brought to Albania (or as the Byzantines called it Arvanon) by the Norman Duke/warlord Robert Guiscard. Essentially he invaded the Balkans in the 1080s with the approval of the Pope and the Venetians. Europe had just gone through the most important event in its history since the Council of Chalcedon: the Great Schism in which the Patriarch of Rome succeeded from the church and established a seperate church. The Normans were very zealous followers of the Papal church, they invaded England and threw out the Orthodox Anglo-Saxons, and later invaded Orthodox Ireland. Many of the Orthodox Albanians went into communion with Rome, eventually two centuries later the Catholic establishment in Albania requested that the Angevin French invade Albania and throw out the Orthodox rulers there.

Islam in Albania is a bit different, there is a legend among the Muslims in Elbasan that the Albanians were originally a tribe of Muslim Arab associates of Muhammad who left to Sicily, and eventually, the Byzantines moved them to Epirus. They somehow found their way to what is now Elbasan, boom Albanians. Pretty silly I know, apperently this guy's grave is still somewhere there. Muslim Albanians will claim from loose interpretations of Byzantine texts that there were Muslims in the Balkans before the Turks. Again, it is very unlikely there were Muslim people in the region of Albania before the Turks. But the Bektashis also believe that Sarı Saltık Baba came to Albania sometime in the 1200s.

There is a surprisingly vast amount of works by Islamic Albanian poets, they are called the Bejtexhinj. Their early work was in Albanian and talked about things ranging from secular things (love, war, witty topics about life) but eventually, the Turks cracked the whip, and they were strictly poems about Islam. Dalip Frashëri, the uncle of the three Frasheri brothers wrote the Garden of the martyrs, the longest epic poem in the Albanian language. It is 60,000 verses and details the Battle of Karbala. This event is mourned by Shi'ite Muslims to this day. Diwan poetry from Persia was preferred among the court of Albanian pashas. Another great Muslim Albanian poet was Yahya bey Dukagjini, a court favorite of the Ottoman Sultan. Naim Frasheri himself studied Persian and spoke it so well, the Islamic Republic of Iran made a postage stamp of him. Words like Beqar, Hoxha, Dembel are all from Persian.

Around this time, aside from the north where they wrote Albanian in Latin letters. Everywhere else Albanian was written in Arabic letters, from the 15th to 19th century, the name for the specific style is called Elifba. There was also a strong Orthodox Sunni Albanian Ulema (Islamic scholarly community) mostly concentrated in central Albania, Shkoder, and Kosovo. Many educated men came from them. The most notable and recent of these men is Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, a Salafi scholar originally from Shkoder. Things like Madrasas, Shadirvans, etc. were common in almost every major city in Albania because they were necessary parts of the religion.

My personal thoughts are that Albania has and is multipolar, I don't consider Albanians to be intrinsically X Y or Z. This is in contrast to people like Russians, French, and Iranians. Where you can say they are always this one uniform religion. There is the Northern Catholic axis, focused mainly in the region known as Malesia. The middle central Sunni/Sufi region, oriented around Kavaja up to Kosovo and Macedonia. Finally, in the far south and extending up to Elbasan there are the dotted Orthodox regions. Notice how the Orthodox regions are always in close proximity to monasteries.

Albanian identity was preserved in Macedonia through a strong adherence to Islam. An Albanian from Tetova told me that his people, over centuries, used Islam as a defense mechanism of sorts against Slavic assimilation tactics. So anyone who spoke Albanian and was a different religion from Slavs who were Orthodox were not assimilated. In this respect, Albanians in Macedonia have made Islam a cornerstone of their Albanian identity. This is part of the reason why it's hard for me to communicate or convert Macedonian Albanians. They are very tribalistic about their religion.

Another thing to note is the Millet system. Millet comes from the Arabic مِلَّة meaning religious community or nation. The Ottoman Empire seperated "nations" by religion not ethnos. So the people who were Muslim in the Balkans were automatically known as Turks, because by presupposition if you were Turkish you were Muslim. There was also an Orthodox millet, which was exclusively run by the Phanar Patriarch of Constantinople. Can you see how this translates to the present day? This is partially why the Greeks always wanted to assimilate Orthodox Albanians. They have a post-colonial tendency to think any Orthodox in Albania are Greeks, Muslims are Turks. Islam is in my opinion highly ingrained in our culture, but the issue is that our culture is not ingrained in Islam at all. Almost all Islamic schools are against discrimination of skin and origin if you are a fellow Muslim. Muslims consider themselves as a civilization/global religious community known as the Ummah. So, Muslim Albanians (at least the informed ones) will be reluctant to be "pro-Albanianism" per se. They are pro-Ummah. In Islamic legalese nationalism is considered Asabiyyah, which can have a positive connotation but is usually considered negative due to its ties to pre-Islamic Arabian society.

During the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Sunni Albanians were overwhelmingly Pro-Ottoman. In 1914, there was a revolt by Caliphatist Muslim Albanians that lead by a man known as Haxhi Qamili. This revolt in central Albania essentially destroyed Prince Weid's and his western lackeys' rule over Albania. It was so bad, he had to leave the country after only a few years. And for a time Albania returned to Ottoman rule. I personally despise him, along with his bastard friend Essad Pasha Toptani. They demanded the following things:

1. The restoration of Ottoman rule or, failing that, the appointment of a member of the Imperial Ottoman Family as Prince of Albania.

2. If the Albanian language must be used at all, then only Arabic characters should be employed in writing it, while free use of Turkish should be allowed for a period of nine years.

3. The Chief Mufti of Albania should be named by the shaykh al-islam and the spiritual heads of other religious communities by their respective chiefs at Constantinople.

4. The Albanian flag should bear the crescent as it did during the Ottoman times.

Obviously, the Sunnis at the time considered themselves to be Ottomans and part of a Caliphate first and foremost. Their national identity plays second-place, and this is something that goes on to this day. HOWEVER, let it be known that there were definitely partisans among Muslim Albanians. Many of the signers of the declaration of Independence from the Turks were Sunni Muslims. The Pashas in Albania were traditionally reluctant subjects of the Turks. In other times, they were full out pro-Albanian and revolted. For example, of course, Ali Pasha. But most obscure is the planned Illyrian federation of Kara Mahmud Pasha Bushati.

Now, this is all history, obviously, we can see that things are not cut and dry. There is a strong tendency against Albanian nationhood, but there are also a few bright spots. Nowadays things are a bit more complex, so I can't say for sure. I won't say Islam is compatible with Albanians, because Islam is not monolithic and different Hoxhas, people, and schools interpret things differently. Go to a bearded Albanian guy in the streets, he will not go by what he thinks, but what his Hoxha has told him to think.

Sources:

https://www.academia.edu/36121842/A_short_history_of_the_institution_of_Islam_in_Alb ania?auto=download

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/diseases-soul-prejudice-asabiyyah

https://kosovabooks.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/histori-e-letc3abrsisc3ab-shqipe.pdf

[Uski]

I've been thinking about this topic for a long time, and while I am originally from an Orthodox background. My family were very pious Bektashi Muslims, and I also have a great grandfather who was a Hoxha. So I know a bit about how Islam relates to Albania, I also thinkin Muslim Albanians are cool.

With all things related to Albania, you must look at history and see how it originated. Face it, Catholicism and Islam are foreign to Albania. Catholicism was actually originally brought to Albania (or as the Byzantines called it Arvanon) by the Norman Duke/warlord Robert Guiscard. Essentially he invaded the Balkans in the 1080s with the approval of the Pope and the Venetians. Europe had just gone through the most important event in its history since the Council of Chalcedon: the Great Schism in which the Patriarch of Rome succeeded from the church and established a seperate church. The Normans were very zealous followers of the Papal church, they invaded England and threw out the Orthodox Anglo-Saxons, and later invaded Orthodox Ireland. Many of the Orthodox Albanians went into communion with Rome, eventually two centuries later the Catholic establishment in Albania requested that the Angevin French invade Albania and throw out the Orthodox rulers there.

Islam in Albania is a bit different, there is a legend among the Muslims in Elbasan that the Albanians were originally a tribe of Muslim Arab associates of Muhammad who left to Sicily, and eventually, the Byzantines moved them to Epirus. They somehow found their way to what is now Elbasan, boom Albanians. Pretty silly I know, apperently this guy's grave is still somewhere there. Muslim Albanians will claim from loose interpretations of Byzantine texts that there were Muslims in the Balkans before the Turks. Again, it is very unlikely there were Muslim people in the region of Albania before the Turks. But the Bektashis also believe that Sarı Saltık Baba came to Albania sometime in the 1200s.

There is a surprisingly vast amount of works by Islamic Albanian poets, they are called the Bejtexhinj. Their early work was in Albanian and talked about things ranging from secular things (love, war, witty topics about life) but eventually, the Turks cracked the whip, and they were strictly poems about Islam. Dalip Frashëri, the uncle of the three Frasheri brothers wrote the Garden of the martyrs, the longest epic poem in the Albanian language. It is 60,000 verses and details the Battle of Karbala. This event is mourned by Shi'ite Muslims to this day. Diwan poetry from Persia was preferred among the court of Albanian pashas. Another great Muslim Albanian poet was Yahya bey Dukagjini, a court favorite of the Ottoman Sultan. Naim Frasheri himself studied Persian and spoke it so well, the Islamic Republic of Iran made a postage stamp of him. Words like Beqar, Hoxha, Dembel are all from Persian.

Around this time, aside from the north where they wrote Albanian in Latin letters. Everywhere else Albanian was written in Arabic letters, from the 15th to 19th century, the name for the specific style is called Elifba. There was also a strong Orthodox Sunni Albanian Ulema (Islamic scholarly community) mostly concentrated in central Albania, Shkoder, and Kosovo. Many educated men came from them. The most notable and recent of these men is Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, a Salafi scholar originally from Shkoder. Things like Madrasas, Shadirvans, etc. were common in almost every major city in Albania because they were necessary parts of the religion.

My personal thoughts are that Albania has and is multipolar, I don't consider Albanians to be intrinsically X Y or Z. This is in contrast to people like Russians, French, and Iranians. Where you can say they are always this one uniform religion. There is the Northern Catholic axis, focused mainly in the region known as Malesia. The middle central Sunni/Sufi region, oriented around Kavaja up to Kosovo and Macedonia. Finally, in the far south and extending up to Elbasan there are the dotted Orthodox regions. Notice how the Orthodox regions are always in close proximity to monasteries.

Albanian identity was preserved in Macedonia through a strong adherence to Islam. An Albanian from Tetova told me that his people, over centuries, used Islam as a defense mechanism of sorts against Slavic assimilation tactics. So anyone who spoke Albanian and was a different religion from Slavs who were Orthodox were not assimilated. In this respect, Albanians in Macedonia have made Islam a cornerstone of their Albanian identity. This is part of the reason why it's hard for me to communicate or convert Macedonian Albanians. They are very tribalistic about their religion.

Another thing to note is the Millet system. Millet comes from the Arabic مِلَّة meaning religious community or nation. The Ottoman Empire seperated "nations" by religion not ethnos. So the people who were Muslim in the Balkans were automatically known as Turks, because by presupposition if you were Turkish you were Muslim. There was also an Orthodox millet, which was exclusively run by the Phanar Patriarch of Constantinople. Can you see how this translates to the present day? This is partially why the Greeks always wanted to assimilate Orthodox Albanians. They have a post-colonial tendency to think any Orthodox in Albania are Greeks, Muslims are Turks. Islam is in my opinion highly ingrained in our culture, but the issue is that our culture is not ingrained in Islam at all. Almost all Islamic schools are against discrimination of skin and origin if you are a fellow Muslim. Muslims consider themselves as a civilization/global religious community known as the Ummah. So, Muslim Albanians (at least the informed ones) will be reluctant to be "pro-Albanianism" per se. They are pro-Ummah. In Islamic legalese nationalism is considered Asabiyyah, which can have a positive connotation but is usually considered negative due to its ties to pre-Islamic Arabian society.

During the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Sunni Albanians were overwhelmingly Pro-Ottoman. In 1914, there was a revolt by Caliphatist Muslim Albanians that lead by a man known as Haxhi Qamili. This revolt in central Albania essentially destroyed Prince Weid's and his western lackeys' rule over Albania. It was so bad, he had to leave the country after only a few years. And for a time Albania returned to Ottoman rule. I personally despise him, along with his bastard friend Essad Pasha Toptani. They demanded the following things:

1. The restoration of Ottoman rule or, failing that, the appointment of a member of the Imperial Ottoman Family as Prince of Albania.

2. If the Albanian language must be used at all, then only Arabic characters should be employed in writing it, while free use of Turkish should be allowed for a period of nine years.

3. The Chief Mufti of Albania should be named by the shaykh al-islam and the spiritual heads of other religious communities by their respective chiefs at Constantinople.

4. The Albanian flag should bear the crescent as it did during the Ottoman times.

Obviously, the Sunnis at the time considered themselves to be Ottomans and part of a Caliphate first and foremost. Their national identity plays second-place, and this is something that goes on to this day. HOWEVER, let it be known that there were definitely partisans among Muslim Albanians. Many of the signers of the declaration of Independence from the Turks were Sunni Muslims. The Pashas in Albania were traditionally reluctant subjects of the Turks. In other times, they were full out pro-Albanian and revolted. For example, of course, Ali Pasha. But most obscure is the planned Illyrian federation of Kara Mahmud Pasha Bushati.

Now, this is all history, obviously, we can see that things are not cut and dry. There is a strong tendency against Albanian nationhood, but there are also a few bright spots. Nowadays things are a bit more complex, so I can't say for sure. I won't say Islam is compatible with Albanians, because Islam is not monolithic and different Hoxhas, people, and schools interpret things differently. Go to a bearded Albanian guy in the streets, he will not go by what he thinks, but what his Hoxha has told him to think.

Sources:

https://www.academia.edu/36121842/A_short_history_of_the_institution_of_Islam_in_Alb ania?auto=download

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/diseases-soul-prejudice-asabiyyah

https://kosovabooks.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/histori-e-letc3abrsisc3ab-shqipe.pdf

I want to thank you for putting time into this thorough explanation. Respekt nga Zajazi

[Skerdilaid]

Haxhi Qamili was a Sufi (type of Dervish). And his revolt was mostly kept in check by Albanians from Kosove (Isa Boletini etc) and North Albania (Mirdita) who were pred Sunni and Catholic.

[NotYourKind]

I don't think Kastrioti fought for religion. He fought for his race, his people, he was kidnapped as a kid (as were thousands of others) by these ugly freaks who wouldn't want to slice their heads off? He sided with Italy due to a long term relationship and obviously they happened to be Christian, this doesn't mean Kastrioti cared about it he just used religion to get their help (of which they didn't give enough)

Religion has nothing to do with anything, it is political nonsense

Jews vs Arabs vs Rome (christianity), thankfully the Jews are actually peaceful


As for religion in Albania you can be anything except Muslim because that is the enemy our ancestors fought against, I am agnostic myself because I don't care about any religion

[Loki]

Hello NotYourKind, I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that Islam is very detrimental for Albanians. Religion is mostly man-made and political nonsense, however with Jesus it is different, you will find. He is the real deal and also for Albanians.

[NotYourKind]

Hello NotYourKind, I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that Islam is very detrimental for Albanians. Religion is mostly man-made and political nonsense, however with Jesus it is different, you will find. He is the real deal and also for Albanians.

Glad that you agree but I will never fall for any religion. This is 2019 now, I think most people have already come to their senses

[Petros Houhoulis]

...The Pashas in Albania were traditionally reluctant subjects of the Turks. In other times, they were full out pro-Albanian and revolted. For example, of course, Ali Pasha...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the entire Köprülü family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6pr%C3%BCl%C3%BC_family) was traditionally ruling the Ottoman empire in the name of the Sultan, but only reluctantly!

In other news, We would like to thank Ali Pasha for establishing a Greek state before the Greek revolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#Ali_Pasha_as_ruler


Ali Pasha used Greek in his court, and over the gate of his castle in Yannina there was an inscription in Greek claiming his descent from King Pyrrhus of Epirus. It is reported that he conversed with foreigners in Greek.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-19)
A long epic poem known as the Alipashiad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alipashiad) consisting of more than 10,000 lines is dedicated to the exploits of Ali Pasha. The Alipashiad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alipashiad) was composed by Haxhi Shekreti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haxhi_Shekreti), an Albanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) Muslim from Delvino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delvin%C3%AB) and was written entirely in Greek.[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-20)
Impact on modern Greek Enlightenment

Although Ali Pasha's native language was Albanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language) he used Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) for all his courtly dealings[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-Fleming63-21) since the population of the region of Epirus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus) (now mainly in northwestern Greece) which he controlled was predominantly Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) speaking.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-Fleming64-22) As a consequence, a part of the local Greek population showed sympathy towards his rule.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-Fleming63-21) This also activated new educational opportunities, with businessmen of the Greek diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diaspora), subsidizing a number of new educational purposes. As historian Douglas Dakin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Dakin) notes:[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Pasha_of_Ioannina#cite_note-Fleming64-22)
[Ali's] colourful career belongs to Greek as well as to Turkish history. His court was Greek and had been the centre of a Greek renaissance.




So, Ali Pasha was a Muslim eh? And the Muslims were not likely to get assimilated into Greeks unlike the Orthodox Albanians eh? Well, I just got you a Muslim Albanian who foreshadowed the Greek state itself!!!

[Loki]

Glad that you agree but I will never fall for any religion. This is 2019 now, I think most people have already come to their senses

You don't understand. It's not about "religion" as such. Jesus is actually real... as you will see one day.

[NotYourKind]

You don't understand. It's not about "religion" as such. Jesus is actually real... as you will see one day.

Haha yeah, I'm sure he was real but none will see him again. His remains have decomposed into the earth

[Loki]

Haha yeah, I'm sure he was real but none will see him again. His remains have decomposed into the earth

I guarantee you, you will see him again (you for the first time). He conquered death, he rose from the dead and he is alive now, and forever. His body is not in the earth... his grave is empty.

[Tigranes]

I guarantee you, you will see him again (you for the first time). He conquered death, he rose from the dead and he is alive now, and forever. His body is not in the earth... his grave is empty.

Jeez! I almost converted to Christianity by reading this.:jesuscross:

[Loki]

Jeez! I almost converted to Christianity by reading this.:jesuscross:

It's the truth, it really is :) And your Armenian forefathers knew it and realised it...

[Petros Houhoulis]

You don't understand. It's not about "religion" as such. Jesus is actually real... as you will see one day.

I can accept that Jesus was a historical person, and that he was more or less a good fella, as much as a good fella could be in those very hard times he lived, but hey! I could also choose between Stoics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism) and Epicureans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism) without to mess with any religion, or political religion which are the latest fashion in the west...

[wvwvw]

Another thing to note is the Millet system. Millet comes from the Arabic مِلَّة meaning religious community or nation. The Ottoman Empire seperated "nations" by religion not ethnos. So the people who were Muslim in the Balkans were automatically known as Turks, because by presupposition if you were Turkish you were Muslim. There was also an Orthodox millet, which was exclusively run by the Phanar Patriarch of Constantinople. Can you see how this translates to the present day? This is partially why the Greeks always wanted to assimilate Orthodox Albanians. They have a post-colonial tendency to think any Orthodox in Albania are Greeks, Muslims are Turks. Islam is in my opinion highly ingrained in our culture, but the issue is that our culture is not ingrained in Islam at all. Almost all Islamic schools are against discrimination of skin and origin if you are a fellow Muslim. Muslims consider themselves as a civilization/global religious community known as the Ummah. So, Muslim Albanians (at least the informed ones) will be reluctant to be "pro-Albanianism" per se. They are pro-Ummah. In Islamic legalese nationalism is considered Asabiyyah, which can have a positive connotation but is usually considered negative due to its ties to pre-Islamic Arabian society.

RUBBISH. There was a Greek population in Albania that predates the Albanians. Those people spoke Greek and identified as Greek even before the Albanian ethnos formed.

Although the ottomans categorised people by Religion and not race and counted Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs in the same way, they still made the distinction between them and each ethnic group owed its allegiance to their own patriarchs.

The Orthodox population of central and south-eastern Albania was under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid, while south-western Albania was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople through the Metropolis of Ioannina.

The cities that were under the alliagence of Constantinople were all Greek cities like Argyrokastro, Koritsa, Himaira, Avlona, Delvino, all documented Greek cities that had been inhabited by Greek Epirotes since antiquity, middle ages, and to this day.

Southern Albania was granted Greek autonomy in 1914. Albanians forcelly moved many of them to various places in Albania, confiscated much of their properties, and still does even to this day. Many have been murdered for speaking Greek.

Southern Albania was part of Greece. Some of those Greeks even became Albanian Muslims. The Greeks christianized the Slavs but did they attempt to assimilate them? No, they created a script for them a different script from the Greek to differiate them from Greeks.

[NotYourKind]

I guarantee you, you will see him again (you for the first time). He conquered death, he rose from the dead and he is alive now, and forever. His body is not in the earth... his grave is empty.

Dude stop, the only thing that was conquered then was the Jewish people and jesus by the romans. Jesus didn't conquer anything, he was telling stories, many stories were told back then, it was people being people. It had nothing to do with god, it had everything to do with politics

Also, I don't think you understand how decomposition works. It doesn't matter where his body, he is still lifeless, useless, dead. Maybe a good man once upon time but we all die one day

[Loki]

I can accept that Jesus was a historical person, and that he was more or less a good fella, as much as a good fella could be in those very hard times he lived, but hey! I could also choose between Stoics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism) and Epicureans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism) without to mess with any religion, or political religion which are the latest fashion in the west...

No, Jesus wasn't just a good person. He was (and is) the Son of God, who came to save us from our lost condition.

[Loki]

Dude stop, the only thing that was conquered then was the Jewish people and jesus by the romans. Jesus didn't conquer anything, he was telling stories, many stories were told back then, it was people being people. It had nothing to do with god, it had everything to do with politics

Also, I don't think you understand how decomposition works. It doesn't matter where his body, he is still lifeless, useless, dead. Maybe a good man once upon time but we all die one day

He didn't come to be a military or political leader! He came to be so much more! Jesus is God who came as a man, to identify with us and suffer and die for our sins, so that we could be saved and have everlasting life in heaven. He conquered death for us... and when he comes back, he will capture the evil one who misleads and tempts humans every day... the one who tries to whisper in your ear that Jesus is not real.

And no, Jesus is absolutely not dead. Hundreds of people saw him after he rose from the dead. Why do you think Christianity is the biggest religion on earth today, 2000 years later? Because people saw that Jesus had conquered death, and is alive! That is why they became Christians, they were eye witnesses of Jesus' miraculous conquest of death.

[happycow]

RUBBISH. There was a Greek population in Albania that predates the Albanians. Those people spoke Greek and identified as Greek even before the Albanian ethnos formed.

Although the ottomans categorised people by Religion and not race and counted Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs in the same way, they still made the distinction between them and each ethnic group owed its allegiance to their own patriarchs.

The Orthodox population of central and south-eastern Albania was under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid, while south-western Albania was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople through the Metropolis of Ioannina.

The cities that were under the alliagence of Constantinople were all Greek cities like Argyrokastro, Koritsa, Himaira, Avlona, Delvino, all documented Greek cities that had been inhabited by Greek Epirotes since antiquity, middle ages, and to this day.

Southern Albania was granted Greek autonomy in 1914. Albanians forcelly moved many of them to various places in Albania, confiscated much of their properties, and still does even to this day. Many have been murdered for speaking Greek.

Southern Albania was part of Greece. Some of those Greeks even became Albanian Muslims. The Greeks christianized the Slavs but did they attempt to assimilate them? No, they created a script for them a different script from the Greek to differiate them from Greeks.

Is there anything that isn't Greek? :P