How much Anglo-Saxon vs Celtic ancestry does each part of England have?

[Sikeliot]

By this i don't mean to imply there is such a thing as 'genetically Celtic' but what I mean is this:

in different parts of England, what percentage "native" Brittonic are they versus incoming Germanic from the continent?

This is all I could find but the labels make no sense. What does 'British' mean here?

https://www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-think

[Bobby Martnen]

I1 = Germanic input, as it's the only true Germanic haplogroup and R1 "Germans" are just linguistically Germanized, but not truly German ethnically.

It's from 8-20%, depending on the part of Britain. It's 6% in Ireland, which shows Irish are mostly pure.

https://i.imgur.com/UVMtrRN.png

[Latinus]

Is phenotype also related to areas with more native Britton and Germanic imput? For example, an English person with blonde hair and Nordid features would have more Germanic ancestry than Celtic?

[Norb]

I1 = Germanic input, as it's the only true Germanic haplogroup and R1 "Germans" are just linguistically Germanized, but not truly German ethnically.

It's from 8-20%, depending on the part of Britain. It's 6% in Ireland, which shows Irish are mostly pure.

https://i.imgur.com/UVMtrRN.png

I1 wasn't Germanic until the R1 'Germanicanized' them

[Norb]

Is phenotype also related to areas with more native Britton and Germanic imput? For example, an English person with blonde hair and Nordid features would have more Germanic ancestry than Celtic?

good question, I have yet to find out how much Germanic input DNA I have but have been classified 'Nordid', I'm guessing I have around 80% Keltic and 20% Germanic..

[J. Ketch]

Northern Europe PCA by Davidski for my mum (black cross), from the West Midlands.
https://s15.postimg.cc/p0uxkx63b/amplot.png (https://postimg.cc/image/p0uxkx63b/)
Roughly equidistant to ancient Britons and ancient Anglo-Saxons.

This is why I'm skeptical of the lower end figures for Germanic input (20-30% etc).

[Sikeliot]

Northern Europe PCA by Davidski for my mum (black cross), from the West Midlands.
https://s15.postimg.cc/p0uxkx63b/amplot.png (https://postimg.cc/image/p0uxkx63b/)
Roughly equidistant to ancient Britons and ancient Anglo-Saxons.

This is why I'm skeptical of the lower end figures for Germanic input (20-30% etc).


I always thought it is 50-50 in eastern England, and more British everywhere else.

[Iloko]

Exactly what separates Irish Celtics from French Celtics I've always wondered

[Alvorada Potente]

East Anglia and East England is Germany
Scotland, Wales, Devon, Cumbria, Southwest and Cornwall are Ireland

[J. Ketch]

I always thought it is 50-50 in eastern England, and more British everywhere else.
It maybe more in some Eastern parts, but as you know in the POBI study the 'SEE' cluster spans much of England, up into the Midlands as well.

[Sikeliot]

It maybe more in some Eastern parts, but as you know in the POBI study the 'SEE' cluster spans much of England, up into the Midlands as well.

That whole region is probably close to 50% Germanic, 50% Celtic. Still, I think it is erroneous to assume all of the Germanic is Anglo-Saxon, much of it is probably Danish Viking.

[Isleño]

Northern Europe PCA by Davidski for my mum (black cross), from the West Midlands.
https://s15.postimg.cc/p0uxkx63b/amplot.png (https://postimg.cc/image/p0uxkx63b/)
Roughly equidistant to ancient Britons and ancient Anglo-Saxons.

This is why I'm skeptical of the lower end figures for Germanic input (20-30% etc).
Your mother looks more like a 60%/40% split (60% native Briton) to the nearest Anglo-Saxon and like a 70%/30% split (70% native Briton) to the further Anglo-Saxon. What do you know about the Anglo-Saxon samples used in that PCA? Notice one of the Anglo-Saxon samples is very near to the native Brits suggesting they are very mixed and primarily native British ancestry. The closer Anglo-Saxon may have native Briton admixture or may not. You’d have to know the DNA of that Anglo-Saxon individual.

This study uses Anglo-Saxon and ancient native British DNA for comparison with east English people and it shows them to be 38% Anglo Saxon but gives a wide range for England as 10%-40. Your mother would match the maximum amount. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735688/

Pg. 16 of the supplemental from that study gives Anglo-Saxon percentages for various parts of England, but also for Welsh and Scottish. (Percentages are under the column named “Fraction”) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735688/bin/ncomms10408-s1.pdf

[J. Ketch]

Your mother looks more like a 60%/40% split (60% native Briton) to the nearest Anglo-Saxon and like a 70%/30% split (70% native Briton) to the further Anglo-Saxon. What do you know about the Anglo-Saxon samples used in that PCA? Notice one of the Anglo-Saxon samples is very near to the native Brits suggesting they are very mixed and primarily native British ancestry. The closer Anglo-Saxon may have native Briton admixture or may not. You’d have to know the DNA of that Anglo-Saxon individual.

This study uses Anglo-Saxon and ancient native British DNA for comparison with east English people and it shows them to be 38% Anglo Saxon but gives a wide range for England as 10%-40. Your mother would match the maximum amount. http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735688/

Pg. 16 of the supplemental from that study gives Anglo-Saxon percentages for various parts of England, but also for Welsh and Scottish. (Percentages are under the column named “Fraction”) http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4735688/bin/ncomms10408-s1.pdf
That post is over 4 years old, a much more extensive study on the Anglo-Saxons came out a few days ago.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332906-Southeast-England-was-80-replaced-by-Anglo-Saxons-in-the-Early-Middle-Ages
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2

Anyhow they estimated the average modern English to be about 40% CNE/Anglo-Saxon in their 3-way ancestral model, alongside 33% Celtic Briton, and 25% Gaulish. I think my mother is probably close to the average in CNE admixture. Sussex has the highest CNE ancestry at 47%, Cornwall (not really English anyway) the lowest at 25%. Most English, the Southeast and Midlands cluster, are estimated to have a CNE percentage in the low to mid 40s. Cumbria in the Northwest has the highest Celtic Briton ancestry in high 50s, and Suffolk in East Anglia the lowest in the low 10s.

[TheForeigner]

That post is over 4 years old, a much more extensive study on the Anglo-Saxons came out a few days ago.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?332906-Southeast-England-was-80-replaced-by-Anglo-Saxons-in-the-Early-Middle-Ages
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2

Anyhow they estimated the average modern English to be about 40% CNE/Anglo-Saxon in their 3-way ancestral model, alongside 33% Celtic Briton, and 25% Gaulish. I think my mother is probably close to the average in CNE admixture. Sussex has the highest CNE ancestry at 47%, Cornwall (not really English anyway) the lowest at 25%. Most English, the Southeast and Midlands cluster, are estimated to have a CNE percentage in the low to mid 40s. Cumbria in the Northwest has the highest Celtic Briton ancestry in high 50s, and Suffolk in East Anglia the lowest in the low 10s.

Is the rather high Gaulish admixture from Romans or Normans or both? I assume the 2% left is other Roman or Roman Empire related ancestry. What do you think Normans were like in terms of ancestry? What about modern Norman French?

[J. Ketch]

Is the rather high Gaulish admixture from Romans or Normans or both? What do you think Normans were like in terms of ancestry? What about modern Norman French?
It's hard to say at this point, but the authors said explicitly that this French Iron Age admixture referred to came after the Roman period, so somewhere between the early Middle Ages and the present. It seems that there was already some Gaulish blood coming in alongside the Saxons in Southern England, which they've connected to Frankish exchanges, but more came later, no doubt much of it with and after the Normans.

The actual Normans who came to England in 1066 were probably a mix of Gaulish and Scandinavian blood, but in truth most of the invasion force and subsequent immigration came from around France, and also Flanders, so no point focusing too much on Normans themselves. AFAIK most Normans are like regular Northern French, overwhelming Gallic extraction. Some from the Cotentin Peninsula (near the Channel Islands) appear to be more like Southern English than French, due to the Germanic/Anglo-Saxon settlements there.