Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Ori

[Loki]

Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin (http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf)

Steven C. Bird

Abstract

The invasion of Britain by the Roman military in CE 43, and the subsequent occupation of Britain for nearly four centuries, brought thousands of soldiers from the Balkan peninsula to Britain as part of auxiliary units and as regular legionnaires. The presence of Haplogroup E3b1a-M78 among the male populations of present-day Wales, England and Scotland, and its nearly complete absence among the modern male population of Ireland, provide a potential genetic indicator of settlement during the 1st through 4th Centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula and their male Romano-British descendants. Haplotype data from several major genetic surveys of Britain and Ireland are examined, analyzed and correlated with historical, epigraphic and archaeological information, with the goal of identifying any significant phylogeographic associations between E3b1a-M78 and those known Romano-British settlements and military posts that were associated specifically with Roman soldiers of Balkan origin. Studies by Cruciani et al. (2007), Perečić et al. (2005), and Marjanovic et al. (2005), examining the distribution of E3b1a-M78 and E3b1a2-V13 in the Balkans, are analyzed further to provide evidence of phylogeographic associations between the E3b1a2 haplotypes identified within the Balkans by these studies and those regions of the Balkans occupied first by the Roman army in antiquity. E3b1a2-V13 is found to be at its highest frequency worldwide in the geographic region corresponding closely to the ancient Roman province of Moesia Superior, a region that today encompasses Kosovo, southern Serbia, northern Macedonia and extreme northwestern Bulgaria. The Balkan studies also provide evidence to support the use of E3b1a-M78 (in the present study) as a close proxy for the presence of E3b1a2-V13 (representing 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade) in both the Balkans and in Britain.

===============================

Please note that this clade is now named E1b1b1a2

[Loki]

Thracian soldiers in Roman Britain

Epigraphic evidence for the presence of individual
Thracian soldiers, as well as for Thracian military units
of the Roman army, is found in several locations in
Britain. Jarrett (1969) traced the probable careers and
locations of thirty-seven separate Thracian units in the
Roman military, ranging from the provinces of Syria to
Britannia. He noted the difficulty of determining
exactly how many Thracian units were formed in total,
because of the Roman military’s unmethodical habit of
naming many of the newly raised units the cohors I
Thracum (First Thracian Cohort), regardless of how
many of these units with the same name had existed
previously. These Thracian cohorts initially were raised
for service (probably) in Germany; some later were
assigned to service in Britain. The cohors I Thracum eq.
(mounted cohort of Thracian cavalry), is recorded on a
tombstone in Cologne from the first century; this unit
had moved to Britain by 122 and was still there under
Severus (r. 193-211). The cohors II Thracum moved
from Germany to Britain between the mid-first century
and CE 103, perhaps as a result of the Bouddican revolt.
Only one seventh cohort is known, the cohors VII
Thracum. It was attested in Britain in 122 and 135 and
in Brittania Inferior (corresponding to northern
England, with its capital at York) in the third century.
Among the alae (“wings” of cavalry), the ala I Thracum
was attested in Britain in 103 and 124; tombstones from
Colchester (about CE 45) and Cirencester (CE 62) attest
to the unit’s presence in Britain in the mid-first century
and an engraved trulla (washbasin or ladle), possibly
Flavian, places the unit in Isca Silurum (Caerleon,
Gwent) in the late 1st century.
25

The unit was moved to
lower Germany (Germania inferior) by the mid-second
century and was still there in 219 (Jarrett, 1969, p 218).

[Loki]

The unit was moved to
lower Germany (Germania inferior) by the mid-second
century and was still there in 219 (Jarrett, 1969, p 218).

Interesting ... the area of Germania inferior is where my paternal line comes from since I know, in 1596. Well, actually just to the north of that.

http://www2.rgzm.de/Transformation/Nederland/ContructingTheProvince/Pictures_E/niederlande3coloriertschattiert_m.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Germania_Inferior_SPQR.png

[Treffie]

Abergele in north Wales has an abnormally large amount of this group.

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image039.jpg

[Guapo]

Loki, are you related to Libre?

[Aemma]

So I gather you also share some heritage with our great friend Tonsor as well then! :) :thumb001:

I found this from Wikipedia--very interesting in light of having read the article you quoted above, Loki:


Hero - the Thracian Horseman
The Thracian Hero, also known as the Thracian Horseman, was an abstract figure. The Hero was a central figure in Thracian religion as protector of life and health of the people. The Thracian Hero was always depicted on a horse, usually slaying an object with a spear. Stone reliefs can be seen in Bulgaria's museums originating from Thracian times, through the Roman period and into the middle ages. The Christian church succeeded in hiding the Thracian religious altars and Gods, but the culture and rituals still continued. The Thracian Horseman was represented as St. George, on a horse slaying a dragon.

So then, how truly English is the figure of St. George then? ;) (This should make Ossi speak up! :D)

Very interesting article though. Makes one think about our more accurate origins, if you will.

Hails to the Thracian Horsemen! :thumb001: :)

[Aemma]

Loki, are you related to Libre?

And to you as well Guapo! [Poor Loki! :P :D]

[Osweo]

I wonder if the haplogroup was more widespread in the Balkans as a whole, before the Voelkerwanderung?

Either way, Illyrians should be getting as much or more of your attention as Thracians;

http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh2del.htm

Dacians too, perhaps;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh1dac.htm

Pannonians;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/alaipansab.htm

Thracians on the Wall too;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh2thr.htm

Aem, nobody ever thought St George was an English story! It's common knowledge that the cult was picked up on the Crusades!

[Guapo]

And to you as well Guapo! [Poor Loki! :P :D]

I'm not E3b so not poor Loki.

[Aemma]

I'm not E3b so not poor Loki.

I thought I read something about Serbians and Albanians in that article above?? Are you sure you're not related to Loki, Guapo? :D

[Guapo]

I thought I read something about Serbians and Albanians in that article above?? Are you sure you're not related to Loki, Guapo? :D

No, i'm not E3b like Libre.

[Guapo]

Aem, nobody ever thought St George was an English story! It's common knowledge that the cult was picked up on the Crusades!

On their way through the Morava river valley perhaps? Crusaders liked to rape women too, explanation for R1b in the area.

[Osweo]

On their way through the Morava river valley perhaps? Crusaders liked to rape women too, explanation for R1b in the area.

We baR1barians have been ...ahem... leaving children around longer than that. Heretik might have told you that I almost conclusively proved a Celtic origin for his surname and ancestral village. ;)

I thought the George legend was as much connected with Anatolia (and the Caucasus), but a Balkan link is as likely, if not to be combined with the others. :thumb001:

[Aemma]

I wonder if the haplogroup was more widespread in the Balkans as a whole, before the Voelkerwanderung?

Either way, Illyrians should be getting as much or more of your attention as Thracians;

http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh2del.htm

Dacians too, perhaps;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh1dac.htm

Pannonians;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/alaipansab.htm

Thracians on the Wall too;
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh2thr.htm

Aem, nobody ever thought St George was an English story! It's common knowledge that the cult was picked up on the Crusades!

Well not so common if I didn't know about it! :P But ok! :D :thumbs up

[Guapo]

Heretik might have told you that I almost conclusively proved a Celtic origin for his surname and ancestral village. ;)


Pm me.

[Loki]

I wonder if the haplogroup was more widespread in the Balkans as a whole, before the Voelkerwanderung?

Either way, Illyrians should be getting as much or more of your attention as Thracians;


Not really, in my case it was specifically Thracian. Illyrians were probably mostly R1b anyway?

[Foxy]

I accept the ypothesy, but why from the Balkans and not from Italy? E3b1a2 exists also in Italy...

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7549/ev13zl5.jpg

I'd exclude Northern Africa becouse they belong to E1b1b1

http://dan.draghici.googlepages.com/E1b1b1b_E-M81.jpg

*Sorry before I posted the wrong map...

[Aemma]

I accept the ypothesy, but why from the Balkans and not from Italy? E3b1a2 exists also in Italy...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHTEukFUwlpIg09aemmBpPAIMyIxlfO vXT_wRzeOEpiPaU3M4K&t=1

I'd exclude Northern Africa becouse they belong to E1b1b1

http://dan.draghici.googlepages.com/E1b1b1b_E-M81.jpg

You should read the article that Loki posted above RQ. But from what I gather, the reason why Italians are E1b is precisely because they come from Thracian stock, not the other way around!

[Prengs]

Not really, in my case it was specifically Thracian. Illyrians were probably mostly R1b anyway?

E-V13 is more illyrian than Thracian because most oldest TMCRA has found in illyrians zone where lived, like Puglia-South Italy , Croatia, Bosnia then Montenegro/Albania/Kosova/Serbia to Greece, so lineage goes from West to East.

[poiuytrewq0987]

E3b1a2-V13 is found to be at its highest frequency worldwide in the geographic region corresponding closely to the ancient Roman province of Moesia Superior, a region that today encompasses Kosovo, southern Serbia, northern Macedonia and extreme northwestern Bulgaria.

Germanicus is going to be mad now! :D

[Insuperable]

I accept the ypothesy, but why from the Balkans and not from Italy? E3b1a2 exists also in Italy...

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7549/ev13zl5.jpg

I'd exclude Northern Africa becouse they belong to E1b1b1

http://dan.draghici.googlepages.com/E1b1b1b_E-M81.jpg

*Sorry before I posted the wrong map...

Theres is around 6% of E in Croatia. Seems a little bit outdated map or made by "estimation".

[Insuperable]

Theres is around 6% of E in Croatia. Seems a little bit outdated map or made by "estimation".

Its higher in some other countries for which the map shows smaller amount
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[dralos]

loki you're albo in denial:D

[Kanuni]

E3b is a Negroid marker through and through, they diluted their ancestry through mixing with Caucasoids firstly in Levant with Natufian Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture) and later in Southern Europe.

[Siginulfo]

E3b is a Negroid marker through and through, they diluted their ancestry through mixing with Caucasoid firstly in Levant with Natufian Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture) and later in Southern Europe.

HAHAHA!!!

Good one man!:thumb001: I'm sorry to break your dreams, but the first Negroid skeletal material is from 9000 B.C., while haplogroup E existed thousands and thousands before it, showing no sign o Negroid admixture, traits, influence, etc...

[Kanuni]

HAHAHA!!!

Good one man!:thumb001: I'm sorry to break your dreams, but the first Negroid skeletal material is from 9000 B.C., while haplogroup E existed thousands and thousands before it, showing no sign o Negroid admixture, traits, influence, etc...

The oldest paragroup DE* is found in Central Africa and the biggest diversity and oldest clades of E1/E1b/E1b1b are found among East-Africans.The Caucasoid admixture of East-Africans is explained by the presence of haplogroup J and T.There is no space for doubt that E3b is African/Negroid in origin.Some people need just to simply grow up and accept the reality.

[Siginulfo]

The oldest paragroup DE* is found in Central Africa and the biggest diversity and oldest clades of E1/E1b/E1b1b are found among East-Africans.The Caucasoid admixture of East-Africans is explained by the presence of haplogroup J and T.There is no space for doubt that E3b is African/Negroid in origin.Some people need just to simply grow up and accept the reality.

Again I say you that the oldest Negroid was dated to 9000 B.C.
There isn't any trace of E being Negroid.

[Kanuni]

Again I say you that the oldest Negroid was dated to 9000 B.C.
There isn't any trace of E being Negroid.

There is!You just don't want to aknowledge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Haplogrupo_E-ADN-Y.GIF/250px-Haplogrupo_E-ADN-Y.GIF

[Siginulfo]

There is!You just don't want to aknowledge.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Haplogrupo_E-ADN-Y.GIF/250px-Haplogrupo_E-ADN-Y.GIF

Oh damn it! It's obvious that it "Negrized" coming in contact with haplogroups A and B (the only two true Negrid haplogroups) or to adapt in their harsh territory, but you can't say that the clade E-V13 is Negroid because it originated in Middle East. Maybe the other clades have become Negrized but not E-V13.

[Kanuni]

Oh damn it! It's obvious that it "Negrized" coming in contact with haplogroups A and B (the only two true Negrid haplogroups) or to adapt in their harsh territory, but you can't say that the clade E-V13 is Negroid because it originated in Middle East. Maybe the other clades have become Negrized but not E-V13.

Oh really?

Andamese people have basic clades of D* which is a brother clade to E.

http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/9753Andamanese-people-608.jpg

[Siginulfo]

Believe what you want...

[Prince Carlo]

The oldest paragroup DE* is found in Central Africa and the biggest diversity and oldest clades of E1/E1b/E1b1b are found among East-Africans.The Caucasoid admixture of East-Africans is explained by the presence of haplogroup J and T.There is no space for doubt that E3b is African/Negroid in origin.Some people need just to simply grow up and accept the reality.

It's obvious to me that those haplotypes originated in a time when "negroid" and "caucasoid" were not yet defined types.

[StonyArabia]

I think the true Caucasoid lineage is R1b, R1a, I and J. An SSA diluted Y-lineage E3b, and possibly diluted Veddiod lineage T. The latter two became Caucasoid because of their mixing with Euro/Caucasian females. Since T peaks among the Indian tribals. T is also found in the Caucasus especially common among Ossetians and North Caucasians in general, parts of SouthEastern Europe.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think the true Caucasoid lineage is R1b, R1a, I and J. An SSA diluted Y-lineage E3b, and possibly diluted Veddiod lineage T. The latter two became Caucasoid because of their mixing with Euro/Caucasian females. Since T peaks among the Indian tribals. T is also found in the Caucasus especially common among Ossetians and North Caucasians in general, parts of SouthEastern Europe.

Haplogroup T is extremely rare in Balkans but it seems to appear across Western Europe and Spain with more frequency. As for E3b, I score 0% SSA on all ancestry analysis tests so if E3b supposedly originated from Africa then the people carrying it didn't have any SSA ancestry.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg

[Albion]

I think the true Caucasoid lineage is R1b, R1a, I and J. An SSA diluted Y-lineage E3b, and possibly diluted Veddiod lineage T

I'd add G to that list too but maybe leave out T, that could be from latter Yemenite Jews via the Yemen Africans or from Arab traders.

[Albion]

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7172/haplogroupsethnicities.gif

'Neolithic immigrants' = Farmers
'Bronze Age Immigrants' = Indo-Europeans or groups that spread with them.

[Siginulfo]

I'd add G to that list too but maybe leave out T, that could be from latter Yemenite Jews via the Yemen Africans or from Arab traders.

No, the majority of it is Neolithic.

[Siginulfo]

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7172/haplogroupsethnicities.gif

'Neolithic immigrants' = Farmers
'Bronze Age Immigrants' = Indo-Europeans or groups that spread with them.

The other way around.

[safinator]

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7172/haplogroupsethnicities.gif

'Neolithic immigrants' = Farmers
'Bronze Age Immigrants' = Indo-Europeans or groups that spread with them.
Eupedia dilethantistic maps aren't serious IMO

[Albion]

The other way around.

What is?

[Optimus]

I think the true Caucasoid lineage is R1b, R1a, I and J. An SSA diluted Y-lineage E3b, and possibly diluted Veddiod lineage T. The latter two became Caucasoid because of their mixing with Euro/Caucasian females. Since T peaks among the Indian tribals. T is also found in the Caucasus especially common among Ossetians and North Caucasians in general, parts of SouthEastern Europe.

All of F* descendants are originally Caucasoid.T is not Veddoid at all i don't know were are you pulling that.E3b might originate in Africa but E and DE as a whole originates in Eurasia but you have right they were not Caucasoid but distantly related to Australoid/Proto-Mongoloid D* carriers so they were intruders into Africa too where they substituted the older Negroid lineages A and B.

[Siginulfo]

What is?

Neolithic farmers - IE; the others accompanied them later.

[Albion]

Eupedia dilethantistic maps aren't serious IMO

They're good as a rough guide and the above is a decent generalisation of the point when the Y-DNA haplogroups entered Europe.

[Albion]

Neolithic farmers - IE; the others accompanied them later.

Neolithic farmers weren't IE, more likely Afro-Asiatic speakers as attested by various substratums in European language families (Celtic and Germanic as examples). Some of them could also be from earlier Mesolithic languages too.
Some could have spoken other languages too such as South Caucasian or language related to Sumerian. Maybe Basque has its origin in one of those.

[Siginulfo]

Neolithic farmers weren't IE, more likely Afro-Asiatic speakers as attested by various substratums in European language families (Celtic and Germanic as examples). Some of them could also be from earlier Mesolithic languages too.
Some could have spoken other languages too such as South Caucasian or language related to Sumerian. Maybe Basque has its origin in one of those.

No, substratum in Celto-Germanic could be easily explained also with R1b, it raised in the same place as J and G etc... They were Indo-Europeanized by J2 and G. Otherwise, substratum could be from I1 and I2.

[Optimus]

No, substratum in Celto-Germanic could be easily explained also with R1b, it raised in the same place as J and G etc... They were Indo-Europeanized by J2 and G. Otherwise, substratum could be from I1 and I2.

Stop with your bullshit J2 and/or G has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

It is widely accepted that R1a1a was the sole Indo-European marker.The Urhemait seems to be the Ukrainian steppes or near them.Also the domestication of horse and the spread of Indo-Europeans and the use of horse in warfare fits well.

[Siginulfo]

Stop with your bullshit J2 and/or G has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

It is widely accepted that R1a1a was the sole Indo-European marker.The Urhemait seems to be the Ukrainian steppes or near them.Also the domestication of horse and the spread of Indo-Europeans and the use of horse in warfare fits well.

Stop with your bullshit of R1a and slavic-supremacy, please. Even if a theory is widely accepted it doesn't mean it is the right one. Anyway; we are going off-topic, if you want to discuss you know how to contact me:coffee:

[Albion]

No, substratum in Celto-Germanic could be easily explained also with R1b, it raised in the same place as J and G etc... They were Indo-Europeanized by J2 and G. Otherwise, substratum could be from I1 and I2.

I see. But I don't think J and G have much to do with Indo-European. IE probably developed in either the Pontic Steppe, Central Asia or Anatolia (unlikely). I don't think J2 and G are so associated with it.
G is prominent in Caucasians and Iranian peoples but quite rare amongst most IE's (Iranians excepted). J2 and G carriers must have been quite some elite to be able to replace the languages like that, I think it is unlikely.

More likely is that G2a spread to Europe during the Neolithic and some latter with the Indo-Europeans, Iranian nomads and the Alans on their way to Iberia.
It is important to note that these haplogroups are both found in areas which retained non-IE languages the longest (Etruscans in Italy, Rhaetians in the Alps, etc...)

I see them as Neolithic survivals, it is likely that much of Neolithic Europe was a mixture of G2a and I1 / 2 IMO.

[Siginulfo]

I see. But I don't think J and G have much to do with Indo-European. IE probably developed in either the Pontic Steppe, Central Asia or Anatolia (unlikely). I don't think J2 and G are so associated with it.
G is prominent in Caucasians and Iranian peoples but quite rare amongst most IE's (Iranians excepted). J2 and G carriers must have been quite some elite to be able to replace the languages like that, I think it is unlikely.

More likely is that G2a spread to Europe during the Neolithic and some latter with the Indo-Europeans, Iranian nomads and the Alans on their way to Iberia.
It is important to note that these haplogroups are both found in areas which retained non-IE languages the longest (Etruscans in Italy, Rhaetians in the Alps, etc...)

I see them as Neolithic survivals, it is likely that much of Neolithic Europe was a mixture of G2a and I1 / 2 IMO.

I won't reply here. Kindly sent me a message with all the proofs of your theory and I'll demonstrate you that all are wrong. You can visit again my thread on indo-aryan haplogroups to see hundreds of proofs for Anatolian hypothesis.

[Albion]

Stop with your bullshit J2 and/or G has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

It is widely accepted that R1a1a was the sole Indo-European marker.The Urhemait seems to be the Ukrainian steppes or near them.Also the domestication of horse and the spread of Indo-Europeans and the use of horse in warfare fits well.

I keep hearing this but never understand where R1b exists in this scheme of things. I've always held both R1a and R1b to be IE, R1b in Palaeolithic Iberia doesn't seem likely.
My theory to explain Basque R1b is that they simply aquired language as children from their Neolithic mothers rather than the IE males. It makes sense when you consider that women raise the children. Perhaps IE males in that situation just never managed to teach their new wives the IE languages?

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4161/r1bsubstructurev2.png

[Albion]

I won't reply here. Kindly sent me a message with all the proofs of your theory and I'll demonstrate you that all are wrong. You can visit again my thread on indo-aryan haplogroups to see hundreds of proofs for Anatolian hypothesis.

Lol, you're the one with the unconventional theories here, why should I do all the work?

I've seen one or two of your threads, R1a Indians doesn't have much to do with whether IE came to Europe with R1a or G IMO.

I think this whole J and G thing with you is because you've found out or suspect yourself to be J and don't want your ancestors to be some Neolithic farmers which were conquered by R1a Indo-Europeans. :rolleyes:

[Optimus]

I keep hearing this but never understand where R1b exists in this scheme of things. I've always held both R1a and R1b to be IE, R1b in Palaeolithic Iberia doesn't seem likely.
My theory to explain Basque R1b is that they simply aquired language as children from their Neolithic mothers rather than the IE males. It makes sense when you consider that women raise the children. Perhaps IE males in that situation just never managed to teach their new wives the IE languages?

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4161/r1bsubstructurev2.png

R1b=Western Europe>Bell Beakers R1a=Eastern Europe>Corded Ware.

R1a1a are the Proto Indo-Europeans and some subclades of R1b got gradually Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe.So only a portion of R1b subclades are Indo-European and they backmigratted this time with a IE language.This can explain the predominantly R1b and almost none R1a among Italics-Celtics and mixed ratio of R1b and R1a among Germanics.

[Siginulfo]

Lol, you're the one with the unconventional theories here, why should I do all the work?

I've seen one or two of your threads, R1a Indians doesn't have much to do with whether IE came to Europe with R1a or G IMO.

I'm not unconventional, I'm only seekibg the truth, not seeking an umprobable theory like I am blind, idiot and passively. I make myself questions, I don't listen to and quickly believe.

[Insuperable]

What Protospatha said is the first time I hear. Are there offical papers based on what you are saying?

[Siginulfo]

Lol, you're the one with the unconventional theories here, why should I do all the work?

I've seen one or two of your threads, R1a Indians doesn't have much to do with whether IE came to Europe with R1a or G IMO.

I think this whole J and G thing with you is because you've found out or suspect yourself to be J and don't want your ancestors to be some Neolithic farmers which were conquered by R1a Indo-Europeans. :rolleyes:

hahaha funny one. Neolithic farmers were fairly more advanced than those uncivilized horse riders milk sucker R1a. Neolithic farmers are the real Aryans. I will happy to be J2, I hope it.

[Albion]

R1b=Western Europe>Bell Beakers R1a=Eastern Europe>Corded Ware.

R1a1a are the Proto Indo-Europeans and some subclades of R1b got gradually Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe.So only a portion of R1b subclades are Indo-European and they backmigratted this time with a IE language.This can explain the predominantly R1b and almost none R1a among Italics-Celtics and mixed ratio of R1b and R1a among Germanics.

Right, so what about the western subclades - what is their origin then? You don't support the Iberian theory do you?
Personally I think R1b originated in Anatolia and the Armenian Highlands bringing a sort of proto-IE to Anatolia (the Anatolian languages). When R1b and R1a came into contact again IE was created as we know it (the R1a people speaking a related language to the R1b).
Armenian being a weird version of IE could stem from this IMO.

[Siginulfo]

Right, so what about the western subclades - what is their origin then? You don't support the Iberian theory do you?
Personally I think R1b originated in Anatolia and the Armenian Highlands bringing a sort of proto-IE to Anatolia (the Anatolian languages). When R1b and R1a came into contact again IE was created as we know it (the R1a people speaking a related language to the R1b).
Armenian being a weird version of IE could stem from this IMO.

How could a West Asian haplogroup speak a similar language to one from Central Asia? West Europeans got Indo-Europeanized by the Neolithic farmers that at the time were present in a bit more frequence than now, even in the Isles. Armenian could be a hybrid language IE J2/G + non-IE R1b.

[Albion]

hahaha funny one. Neolithic farmers were fairly more advanced than those uncivilized horse riders milk sucker R1a. Neolithic farmers are the real Aryans. I will happy to be J2, I hope it.

Your rhetoric means I'm probably right.

R1a and R1b succeeded in Europe where Neolithic farmers were failing. The Neolithic farming methods and technology were poorly suited to Europe beyond the Med and Balkans, in the British Isles, Scandinavia and the North European plain they were in rapid decline.
Natural climate change had made what was once a favourable climate largely hostile to them. Grapes were grown during the Neolithic in Sweden - it is only now that they're reappearing after thousands of years.
In Germany the LBK had turned to ritual cannibalism after crop failures. Basically the R1a and R1b people arrived and quickly saved the European population beyond the Med and Balkans. Better pastoral farming methods were well suited to Northern and Central Europe, without them I suspect much of Europe would have reverted to hunter-gatherers.

The R1a and R1b peoples were skilled herdsmen and metal workers whilst the Noelithic peoples were fairly good arable farmers and made nice stone temples.
In the end it was R1a and R1b people with superior weapons, greater mobility (horses) and farming practices better suited to Europe which won out.

Southern Europe and the Balkans don't have such diversity in haplogroups because of the Arabs, they have that from the Neolithic farmers. R1a and R1b peoples didn't have an advantage in these areas as they did in the north.
But in the end it was the Neolithic peoples that ended up speaking IE and following IE cultures and religions. Neolithic farmers weren't Aryans, they were just some earlier Afro-Asiatic and South Caucasian speakers who introduced early farming methods.
Their civilisations were more advanced than that of R1a and R1b people until those two groups settled down as the various cultures of Europe - Slavs, Germanics, Celts, Italics (before the entered Italy), Illyrians, etc...

[Albion]

How could a West Asian haplogroup speak a similar language to one from Central Asia?

Because the two had been one group that broke up, thus taking their original shared language(s) with them. Eventually these diverged, but not enough so as to be completely incompatible. When the two groups came into contact again their two languages or groups of languages formed IE.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5108/64772075.jpg


West Europeans got Indo-Europeanized by the Neolithic farmers that at the time were present in a bit more frequence than now, even in the Isles.

The Isles were almost entirely Neolithic and Mesolithic haplogroups in Britain before R1b entered. (Mesolithic because Britain was only repopulated 10,000 years ago after the Last Glacial Maximum).
The Neolithics spoke Afro-Asiatic or South Caucasian.

[Albion]

I think it is likely that Europe was covered by the following language families during the Neolithic. There would have been some amount of overlap which is indicated by the blurred divisions. The second map has lines to provide a better idea of the areas covered.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8413/languagefamiliesofneoli.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8413/languagefamiliesofneoli.jpg

These in turn would have partially displaced the earlier hunter-gatherer populations of Europe which likely belonged to the I haplogroup. If haplogroup I was indeed descended from IJ then it is likely that Europe's hunter gatherers spoke what is now termed 'Afro-Asiatic' in my opinion.
This was latter pushed back as Neolithic farmers replaced and assimilated the earlier cultures, with Afro-Asiatic being latter reinforced in some areas with farmers, metalworkers and traders travelling along the coasts (Megalithic culture). Basically it is Venneman's Vasconic theory whilst Finnic in NE Europe makes sense and fits the 'Finnic northern Europe theory' and South Caucasian is my own theory and ultimately I think Basque may be a distant relative of it.

South Caucasian should really be South or North Caucasian, either or maybe even both groups could have been present.

I think this is going to be a fun topic. ;)

[Optimus]

Right, so what about the western subclades - what is their origin then? You don't support the Iberian theory do you?
Personally I think R1b originated in Anatolia and the Armenian Highlands bringing a sort of proto-IE to Anatolia (the Anatolian languages). When R1b and R1a came into contact again IE was created as we know it (the R1a people speaking a related language to the R1b).
Armenian being a weird version of IE could stem from this IMO.

Yes i do,Bell Beakers started in Iberia but they had a strong maritime culture and migrated there with ships.The problem is how?Whether they had a long maritime route from Anatolia or they could have migrated via North Africa with a short maritime route.From Anatolia>SouthEasternEurope>WesternEurope via Mediterranean seems more plausible to me that is why we have in Balkans younger R1b subclades than WestAsia and older ones than Western Europe.

Armenian language seems to originate in Balkans and their language can be explained from second-hand IE people.They have more Balkan YDNA than their neighbors afterall like EV13.

[Siginulfo]

Yes i do,Bell Beakers started in Iberia but they had a strong maritime culture and migrated there with ships.The problem is how?Whether they had a long maritime route from Anatolia or they could have migrated via North Africa with a short maritime route.From Anatolia>SouthEasternEurope>WesternEurope via Mediterranean seems more plausible to me that is why we have in Balkans younger R1b subclades than WestAsia and older ones than Western Europe.

Armenian language seems to originate in Balkans and their language can be explained from second-hand IE people.They have more Balkan YDNA than their neighbors afterall like EV13.

Here I don't see so many E-V13 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Optimus]

Here I don't see so many E-V13 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Those E1b1b in red didn't order deep clade test anyway i didn't said EV13 should be quite present there because it isn't it is like 5-7% as far as i recall.Anyway it is just a hypothesis regarding the origin of Armenian language from Balkans.

But your theory of Indo-Europeans being J2 and G is laughable considering recent genetic studies.:lol:

[Siginulfo]

Those E1b1b in red didn't order deep clade test anyway i didn't said EV13 should be quite present there because it isn't it is like 5-7% as far as i recall.Anyway it is just a hypothesis regarding the origin of Armenian language from Balkans.

But your theory of Indo-Europeans being J2 and G is laughable considering recent genetic studies.:lol:

Considering the recent study I sent you via PM a second ago, my theory (Anatolian Hypothesis) is less laughable than yours.

[Optimus]

Considering the recent study I sent you via PM a second ago, my theory (Anatolian Hypothesis) is less laughable than yours.

Proceed here please.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1005005#post1005005

[Albion]

Yes i do,Bell Beakers started in Iberia but they had a strong maritime culture and migrated there with ships.The problem is how?Whether they had a long maritime route from Anatolia or they could have migrated via North Africa with a short maritime route.From Anatolia>SouthEasternEurope>WesternEurope via Mediterranean seems more plausible to me that is why we have in Balkans younger R1b subclades than WestAsia and older ones than Western Europe.

Armenian language seems to originate in Balkans and their language can be explained from second-hand IE people.They have more Balkan YDNA than their neighbors afterall like EV13.

I'd actually overlooked the sea lanes, I suppose this could be possible - R1b could have followed the earlier Megalithic culture into Western Europe. It might have still spoken a non-Indo-European language and latter acquired it from the Celtic culture I suppose since many pre-IE languages survived in R1b areas into the Iron Age.
I did wonder why R1b wasn't so common in the Balkans if there was a migration through there, so see lanes bypassing most of SE Europe does seem possible. Neolithic Northern and Western Europe was in decline as I mentioned earlier, climate change was killing off the Megalithic culture in Britain and NW Europe.
It's notable that Stonehenge, perhaps the greatest and one of the newest stone circles in England was constructed as the Bell Beakers started to show up. I think the Beaker Culture may have led to a Megalithic revival, but gradually it came to subsume the Neolithics in a new culture.

It does make some sense. The Irish have migration myths about different races which settled the island, the last ones (the ancestors of the Irish) were said to have come from Troy (Anatolia) via NW Iberia (Galicia). 'Troy' is just the latter Irish mixing in Greek history for prestige, but it is possible that they could have passed this way.
It's interesting to note that both Ireland and Galicia spoke Q-Celtic instead of P-Celtic like Britain and Gaul. Q-Celtic is presumed to be the older version.

Britain has a similar myth to the Irish but it is a Welsh tale. The English technically speaking claim descent from Odin the wonderer who I believe originally led a real tribe and eventually was immortalised as a god as tales got passed on over the centuries.
Odin ~ Zeus, Asgard ~ Olympos - I think it goes back very far indeed, back to the Steppes. How else would IE religions be so similar?

[Siginulfo]

For those who think the E haplogroup is Negroid: then also R1b is Negroid, given that it's found in Negroids.

[Albion]

For those who think the E haplogroup is Negroid: then also R1b is Negroid, given that it's found in Negroids.

Lol, such a stupid argument:

E came from Africa, R1b went to Africa.

I don't think anyone is saying Albanians or other people rich in E haplogroup are Negroids in the same way as nobody is suggesting that Nigerians are Caucasians because of some R1b.

[Siginulfo]

Lol, such a stupid argument:

E came from Africa, R1b went to Africa.

I don't think anyone is saying Albanians or other people rich in E haplogroup are Negroids in the same way as nobody is suggesting that Nigerians are Caucasians because of some R1b.

Lol Negroids didn't even exist at the time of origin of E.

[Albion]

Lol Negroids didn't even exist at the time of origin of E.

Indeed.

One thing that bugs me is how people act like the current Negroid Africans have never done any wrong, that they never invaded anybody.
It seems these idiots forget / haven't heard of the Bantu expansions. Most Sub-Saharan Africans used to be Capoid until they were forced out by the Negroid Bantus much latter. Had the Dutch not turned up at the Cape I think it is likely that Capoids would have died out completely as the Bantu-speaking peoples slowly crept into the Cape.

It's ironic that last part too - the Bantu speakers could travel by land easily and only had a few Khoisan Capoids to deal with plus they'd been expanding south for centuries.
Europeans on the other hand had the Sahara, the sea, the Muslims and the Bantu as a barrier and yet they managed to get to the Cape before the Bantu! :rolleyes: It's ridiculous, and yet the Negroid Bantu speakers of today, the Black Africans claim that all Africa is their property. :rolleyes2:

http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/1x6913809/Africa_Namibia_Kalahari_bushman_098ALA00463.jpg

When you look at Capoids it becomes clear that the other races didn't evolve from Negroids as the multiculturalists would have us believe. They claim we're all descended from Africans and in their mind these early Africans were the black Bantu - a race originally adapted to the West African rainforests, not the arid Great Rift Valley where humans are supposed to have evolved.
Capoids look closer to Caucasians and Mongoloids than Negroids, if the out of Africa theory is to be believed then we would have originally looked more like the Capoids than the latter Negroid invaders the multiculturalist idiots want us to worship.

It seems to me those who call us preservationists "ignorant" are much more ignorant of things themselves.

[Siginulfo]

Perfectly agreed.

[Loki]

Thracian soldiers in Roman Britain

Epigraphic evidence for the presence of individual
Thracian soldiers, as well as for Thracian military units
of the Roman army, is found in several locations in
Britain. Jarrett (1969) traced the probable careers and
locations of thirty-seven separate Thracian units in the
Roman military, ranging from the provinces of Syria to
Britannia. He noted the difficulty of determining
exactly how many Thracian units were formed in total,
because of the Roman military’s unmethodical habit of
naming many of the newly raised units the cohors I
Thracum (First Thracian Cohort), regardless of how
many of these units with the same name had existed
previously. These Thracian cohorts initially were raised
for service (probably) in Germany; some later were
assigned to service in Britain. The cohors I Thracum eq.
(mounted cohort of Thracian cavalry), is recorded on a
tombstone in Cologne from the first century; this unit
had moved to Britain by 122 and was still there under
Severus (r. 193-211). The cohors II Thracum moved
from Germany to Britain between the mid-first century
and CE 103, perhaps as a result of the Bouddican revolt.
Only one seventh cohort is known, the cohors VII
Thracum. It was attested in Britain in 122 and 135 and
in Brittania Inferior (corresponding to northern
England, with its capital at York) in the third century.
Among the alae (“wings” of cavalry), the ala I Thracum
was attested in Britain in 103 and 124; tombstones from
Colchester (about CE 45) and Cirencester (CE 62) attest
to the unit’s presence in Britain in the mid-first century
and an engraved trulla (washbasin or ladle), possibly
Flavian, places the unit in Isca Silurum (Caerleon,
Gwent) in the late 1st century.
25

The unit was moved to
lower Germany (Germania inferior) by the mid-second
century and was still there in 219 (Jarrett, 1969, p 218).

http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=E-V13

This project attempts to link E-V13 individuals from three regions - Balkans (specifically high E-V13 concentration areas such as Kosovo & Macedonia) - England - German/Swiss border area (Hegau, Thurgau) The project attmepts to collect genetic evidence, that all three regions are linked by means of Roman auxiliary troup movements between 15 AD and 260 AD. The hypothesis is based on the fact that Roman legions systematically recruited Balkan populations for expeditions into Western Europe. Some hard archeological hard facts suggest that after 250 AD up to 50% of all Roman auxiliary troups were from the Balkans.

[Loki]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Germania_70.svg/747px-Germania_70.svg.png

[dralos]

thx loki for this information

[safinator]

http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=E-V13

This project attempts to link E-V13 individuals from three regions - Balkans (specifically high E-V13 concentration areas such as Kosovo & Macedonia) - England - German/Swiss border area (Hegau, Thurgau) The project attmepts to collect genetic evidence, that all three regions are linked by means of Roman auxiliary troup movements between 15 AD and 260 AD. The hypothesis is based on the fact that Roman legions systematically recruited Balkan populations for expeditions into Western Europe. Some hard archeological hard facts suggest that after 250 AD up to 50% of all Roman auxiliary troups were from the Balkans.
Indeed that Hypothesis is very likely.

[Loki]

Bump

[The Illyrian Warrior]

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image033.jpg

This tells something. :rolleyes2:

Isn't surprising tbh, since many Roman soldiers either were Illyrian or Thracian origin, same could be said about Emperors. :)

[Albion]

British are long lost Albanians? :lightbul:


http://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image033.jpg

This tells something. :rolleyes2:

Isn't surprising tbh, since many Roman soldiers either were Illyrian or Thracian origin, same could be said about Emperors. :)

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

E-V13 is very ancient in Europe, an association with Romans is a very weak way of accounting for its presence in the British Isles.

[Artek]

The further research on EV-13 subclades is necessary to prove some hypothetical links. Because the highest frequency somewhere means nothing to me...

[Loki]

E-V13 is very ancient in Europe, an association with Romans is a very weak way of accounting for its presence in the British Isles.

... but at small quantities in northern Europe.

[Kastrioti1443]

Yes, Illyrians were the best soldiers of the Roman Empire, they used to kill germanics for fun. They also settled partially in Britain.

[Artek]

... but at small quantities in northern Europe.
Not necessarilly, actually some of the branches in Northern Europe are pretty unique (like L540). They may be just a farmer survivors

[Hevo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Germania_70.svg/747px-Germania_70.svg.png

I wonder which haplogroups the Cananefates carried.

[Loki]

Not necessarilly, actually some of the branches in Northern Europe are pretty unique (like L540). They may be just a farmer survivors

Yes it is in essence a Neolithic clade, which has some survivors all over Europe. But as I said, the frequencies are very low indeed in Northern Europe. Plus, the Thracian cohorts that were demobilized in Germania Inferior must have had many descendants.

[Kastrioti1443]

Yes it is in essence a Neolithic clade, which has some survivors all over Europe. But as I said, the frequencies are very low indeed in Northern Europe. Plus, the Thracian cohorts that were demobilized in Germania Inferior must have had many descendants.

They were a mix of Thracians and Illyrians.

[Tropico]

Someone should delve into E-V13 in Spain. Just saying.

[Albion]

Yes, Illyrians were the best soldiers of the Roman Empire, they used to kill germanics for fun. They also settled partially in Britain.

Illyrians were so epic that the Romans managed to lose the greater part of Germania.

[Kastrioti1443]

Illyrians were so epic that the Romans managed to lose the greater part of Germania.

Well, the Illyrians were the backbone of the Roman army since 80 AD, they composed the majority of the Pretorian Guard and they were the ones who managed to stop millions of germanics till the collapse of Rome.

[Albion]

Well, the Illyrians were the backbone of the Roman army since 80 AD, they composed the majority of the Pretorian Guard and they were the ones who managed to stop millions of germanics till the collapse of Rome.

The Rhine border was porous many times, Cimbri and the Teutones showed that when they basically took a tour of the western part of the empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg/1204px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not necessarilly, actually some of the branches in Northern Europe are pretty unique (like L540). They may be just a farmer survivors

Basically I think there were small bands of E all over europe but in the minority. And ditto for N and T. I don't think there was ever a civilization that was mostly E west of balkans, and no neolithic ancient DNA shows mostly E. There were not really nation states like today until recently in history.

[justme]

http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=E-V13

This project attempts to link E-V13 individuals from three regions - Balkans (specifically high E-V13 concentration areas such as Kosovo & Macedonia) - England - German/Swiss border area (Hegau, Thurgau) The project attmepts to collect genetic evidence, that all three regions are linked by means of Roman auxiliary troup movements between 15 AD and 260 AD. The hypothesis is based on the fact that Roman legions systematically recruited Balkan populations for expeditions into Western Europe. Some hard archeological hard facts suggest that after 250 AD up to 50% of all Roman auxiliary troups were from the Balkans.
Why not TROJAN? Romans were originally believed to have their origins from Troy? But Trojans also had a connection with Thracians Dardanians and Butrint (Albania)