Western part of Great Britain is more 'Celtic' genetically, in both England, Scotland, and Wales?

[Sikeliot]

Looking here, it appears so. This is again from Irish DNA Atlas.

Within the British samples, the highest amount of French/Breton-like ancestry, and the least German/Danish, seem to be the following:

Cornwall
Devon
Marches (England's border regions with Wales)
Wales
Western Scotland

http://county-wise.abcounties.com/files/2013/06/The-Counties.png


https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg

[Aren]

I don't get this study, just post a table with percentages. It's so annoying with these staples or whatever that is. But adding Danish + Swedish + Norwegian gives Orkeney > England > Scotland > Ireland > Wales

[waam]

France is supposedly representative of the celtic component? How come?

[Sikeliot]

France is supposedly representative of the celtic component? How come?

French there is largely Breton (Bretons are descended from the Celtic people of Britain who fled the Anglo-Saxons' arrival in the UK).

But as we can see, the western parts of Britain in general (western England, Wales, western Scotland) all have this component higher.

[waam]

I see, I thought they were mostly Germanic in origin.

[Sikeliot]

I see, I thought they were mostly Germanic in origin.

I do not know why people think this.

[Tooting Carmen]

None of this is surprising.

[Bobby Martnen]

I do not know why people think this.

Because they speak a Germanic language and look more like Germans than like Irish.

[QUICAS]

I think yes

[Sikeliot]

Because they speak a Germanic language and look more like Germans than like Irish.

I dispute that they look more German than Irish.

[Bobby Martnen]

I dispute that they look more German than Irish.

Well, this Pennsylvania Dutchman passes in Britain but not in Ireland, and I highly doubt his one Scottish great-grandfather influenced his phenotype significantly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72866&d=1519532880

[Sikeliot]

Well, this Pennsylvania Dutchman passes in Britain but not in Ireland, and I highly doubt his one Scottish great-grandfather influenced his phenotype significantly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72866&d=1519532880

He'd fit just fine in Ireland.

[Bobby Martnen]

He'd fit just fine in Ireland.

He'd be atypical. He'd pass better on the streets of Marseilles than the streets of Dublin.

Would he be immediately identified as a non-native? No

Would he look typical? Not at all.

[waam]

I do not know why people think this.
Probably because they are associated with Franks, too.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well, this Pennsylvania Dutchman passes in Britain but not in Ireland, and I highly doubt his one Scottish great-grandfather influenced his phenotype significantly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72866&d=1519532880

He'd pass in Ireland no problem. Goodness!

[Bobby Martnen]

He'd pass in Ireland no problem. Goodness!

He doesn't look like any of my Irish relatives.

[Peterski]

Western part of Great Britain is more 'Celtic' genetically, in both England, Scotland, and Wales?

In case of England not as far as Y-DNA is concerned.

Western part of England is not really more Celtic in terms of Y-DNA than Central part. I compared frequencies of undoubtedly Celtic Y-DNA (of course Celts in Britain also had R1b-U152, I2, etc., etc. - but likely not all of it is from Celts) with political situation in 600 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/osqDFjP.png

Sources used:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/600_kingdoms.html
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMap.htm
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-britain-ireland-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-dna/
https://www.pinterest.com/afblue010104/ftdna-england-ydna-research-project/

[Sikeliot]

In case of England not as far as Y-DNA is concerned.

Western part of England is not really more Celtic in terms of Y-DNA than Central part. I compared frequencies of undoubtedly Celtic Y-DNA (of course Celts in Britain also had R1b-U152, I2, etc., etc. - but likely not all of it is from Celts) with political situation in 600 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/osqDFjP.png

Sources used:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/600_kingdoms.html
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMap.htm
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-britain-ireland-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-dna/
https://www.pinterest.com/afblue010104/ftdna-england-ydna-research-project/


It may not blatantly show elevated "Celtic" but rather what I expected: East Anglia and Essex show the lowest amount of pre-Germanic ancestry, while Cornwall and northern England show more. Either way autosomally we can see that places like Cornwall, Devon, the border regions with Wales and even, in my opinion, most of England is autosomally closer to Ireland (and thus has more pre-Germanic ancestry than Anglo-Saxon) than to Germany.

[Peterski]

Britain just before the Anglo-Saxon and Irish (Gael) immigration, around year 425 AD:

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/


Britain c. AD 425
Political Divisions
EBK presents a map of Britain as it may have appeared around AD 425. This was around the time that Vortigern is said to have emerged from the Gloucester area as the chief political power in the country [Pink}. The Saxons and Irish were already settling in coastal areas. Little is known of the Northern Pictish regions [Purple], but presumably the tribal divisions of previous ages survived into the 5th century.

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/images/ebk_425.jpg

According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Hengest and Horsa came to Britain in 449 AD:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/angsax.asp

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html

A.D. 443 .
This year sent the Britons over sea to Rome, and begged assistance against the Picts; but they had none, for the Romans were at war with Atila, king of the Huns. Then sent they to the Angles, and requested the same from the nobles of that nation.

A.D. 449 .
This year Marcian and Valentinian assumed the empire, and reigned 7 winters. In their days Hengest and Horsa, invited by Wurtgern, king of the Britons to his assistance, landed in Britain in a place that is called Ipwinesfleet; first of all to support the Britons, but they afterwards fought against them.

[Mens-Sarda]

Looking here, it appears so. This is again from Irish DNA Atlas.

Within the British samples, the highest amount of French/Breton-like ancestry, and the least German/Danish, seem to be the following:

Cornwall
Devon
Marches (England's border regions with Wales)
Wales
Western Scotland


This makes sense, since those are the regions where the indigenous Celtic inhabitants retreated after the Anglo-Saxon invasion

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/14/britons-still-live-in-anglo-saxon-tribal-kingdoms-oxford-univers/

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/MobileSwitcher/v2/images/816-14267045631796800873.png

[Sikeliot]

This makes sense, since those are the regions where the indigenous Celtic inhabitants retreated after the Anglo-Saxon invasion

Even the red Central/South England cluster only should have between 10-40% Anglo-Saxon/continental Germanic input according to studies, and the rest indigenous Celtic.

[de Burgh II]

Pretty much; To sum up from a Eastern to a Western cline genetically-speaking; Eastern/Central side of England is more Danish-like whereas Briton isolates such as Welsh, Northern English and Western Scots are more native- Briton oriented. Some Irish groups such as Ulster, Dublin, etc. is French-like, whereas some Irish groups are more Scandinavian-oriented. Outliers such as Orkney has recorded interactions with Norse so they have sizable Norse influences.

[Token]

Pretty much; To sum up from a Eastern to a Western cline genetically-speaking; Eastern/Central side of England is more Danish-like whereas Briton isolates such as Welsh, Northern English and Western Scots are more native- Briton oriented. Some Irish groups such as Ulster, Dublin, etc. is French-like, whereas some Irish groups are more Scandinavian-oriented. Outliers such as Orkney has recorded interactions with Norse so they have sizable Norse influences.

What intrigues me is how east England, despite being more Danish-like as you pointed out, is considerably more southern shifted than Scotland, Ireland and even northern England. Bell Beakers entered the isles from the east so a Bronze Age link wouldn't explain it. A French-Norman input is quite possible in my opinion.

[Sikeliot]

What intrigues me is how east England, despite being more Danish-like as you pointed out, is considerably more southern shifted than Scotland, Ireland and even northern England. Bell Beakers entered the isles from the east so a Bronze Age link wouldn't explain it. A French-Norman input is quite possible in my opinion.

They also have higher Caucasus than the rest of the UK.

[Sikeliot]

Pretty much; To sum up from a Eastern to a Western cline genetically-speaking; Eastern/Central side of England is more Danish-like whereas Briton isolates such as Welsh, Northern English and Western Scots are more native- Briton oriented. Some Irish groups such as Ulster, Dublin, etc. is French-like, whereas some Irish groups are more Scandinavian-oriented. Outliers such as Orkney has recorded interactions with Norse so they have sizable Norse influences.

What about SW England and areas like Shropshire, Worcestershire etc?

[Aren]

What intrigues me is how east England, despite being more Danish-like as you pointed out, is considerably more southern shifted than Scotland, Ireland and even northern England. Bell Beakers entered the isles from the east so a Bronze Age link wouldn't explain it. A French-Norman input is quite possible in my opinion.

To me it looks like England, with the exception of the SW has more Danish + Norwegian + Swedish than either Ireland or Scotland. And significantly less French-like.

[Grace O'Malley]

To me it looks like England, with the exception of the SW has more Danish + Norwegian + Swedish than either Ireland or Scotland. And significantly less French-like.

From this they don't have more of the Scandinavian stuff combined but they do have higher Belgian and German. The Irish have higher French. Not sure what causes the more southern pull though. Irish, Scots and Welsh are all more northern on dna plots and have more Steppe. Not sure how all the components explain this.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg

[Sikeliot]

From this they don't have more of the Scandinavian stuff combined but they do have higher Belgian and German. The Irish have higher French. Not sure what causes the more southern pull though. Irish, Scots and Welsh are all more northern on dna plots and have more Steppe. Not sure how all the components explain this.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg

And what makes it odd is that it looks like SW and Western England have more "Irish like" DNA here but they plot the most south of all the English.

[Grace O'Malley]

And what makes it odd is that it looks like SW and Western England have more "Irish like" DNA here but they plot the most south of all the English.

It's a bit of a conundrum. I wonder if anyone has broken down where the German dna is from in England? They most possibly have. Will have to look later.

[Aren]

It depends on the sample. Sometimes English plot more north.

[Grace O'Malley]

It depends on the sample. Sometimes English plot more north.

I've never seen that. Do you have a link?

Anyway related to this thread I see that Graham has already posted this in the Welsh Gedmatch thread but as to what I've said before this just came out today. Prof Reich has 1,000 genomes from Britain and will investigate the extra neolithic component in South East England. This has been noted by others, including myself. In general the higher ANE in the "Celtic Fringe" populations and the more southern pull of the English. Looks like these questioned will be answered in the very foreseeable future.


During the Iron Age or Roman Period, the DNA of people in the south-east diverged somewhat from that of populations in the rest of the Britain.

Prof Reich told BBC News: "We are initiating an effort to follow up on this observation - and more generally to provide a fine-grained picture of population structure of Iron Age and Roman Britain - using a study that will be on a scale of 1,000 newly reported British samples."


But at some point after the Bronze Age, groups in the south-east appear to have mixed with a population similar to those Stonehenge builders who inhabited Britain before the Beakers arrived.

Most people from south-east Britain still trace most of their ancestry to the Beaker people, but the later mixing event had a bigger impact than Medieval Anglo-Saxon migrations - traditionally seen as the foundation point of English history.

Prof Reich said his team at Harvard currently had three working hypotheses to explain the result. While the Beakers replaced around 90% of the ancestry in Britain, it's possible that a pocket (or pockets) of Neolithic farmers held out in isolation somewhere for hundreds of years.

During the Iron Age (which began around 3,000 years ago), they mixed back in with the general population, diluting the Beakers' genetic background with a type of ancestry that's now stronger around the Mediterranean than in Northern or Central Europe.

Alternatively, the genetic data may be hinting at a separate migration from continental Europe during the Iron Age - perhaps one that brought Celtic languages into Britain.

The third possibility is that scholars have simply underestimated the genetic impact of the Roman occupation, which lasted in Britain from AD 43 until 410. Roman settlers from the Italian peninsula would have traced a large proportion of their ancestry to Neolithic farmers like those that inhabited Britain before the arrival of the Beaker people.


http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43712587

So what would be interesting I think is to look at where the French component is from. I know it's mostly Breton-like and the Belgian-German component.

[Graham]

It's a bit of a conundrum. I wonder if anyone has broken down where the German dna is from in England? They most possibly have. Will have to look later.
From the Earlier studies.

They say the closest language to English is found in Frisia, Netherlands. Perhaps could be knocking on the door round around West Germany or actually in Netherlands to denmark because they took no samples from there.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/---rAR5GpVQY/VQnXa-eFJII/AAAAAAAAKBM/G6E-D3ZT034/s1600/ContinentalSources.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/e5/e3/83e5e3911d9632c7b4531831b73c111e.png

[Aren]

I've never seen that. Do you have a link?
English and Scots are included in the Germanic. Notice how the Irish are somewhat closer to the more southern-like French.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L1rxQAJD7b4/WhqKtsmkwFI/AAAAAAAAGS4/siOaJt9zhU0SwmdIZ2deeE_k-wRBBpNLwCLcBGAs/s1600/North_Europe_genetic-linguistic_landscape.png

[Grace O'Malley]

English and Scots are included in the Germanic. Notice how the Irish are somewhat closer to the more southern-like French.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L1rxQAJD7b4/WhqKtsmkwFI/AAAAAAAAGS4/siOaJt9zhU0SwmdIZ2deeE_k-wRBBpNLwCLcBGAs/s1600/North_Europe_genetic-linguistic_landscape.png

That is Eurogenes Northern Europe PCA. It has ancient and some modern samples. It is not the same as a normal genetic dna plot but has very specific characteristics. There is a huge thread on Anthrogenica about it. I'm hyper Irish on that as I plot north and to the right of the Irish samples.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12539-Eurogenes-Northern_Europe-PCA

[Grace O'Malley]

Just to illustrate further what I mean about Eurogenes Northern Europe PCA. Here is a plot done by Radbound on that thread linked with the names of the samples. This is only part of the plot as it is quite large.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2l8905u.jpg

[de Burgh II]

What intrigues me is how east England, despite being more Danish-like as you pointed out, is considerably more southern shifted than Scotland, Ireland and even northern England. Bell Beakers entered the isles from the east so a Bronze Age link wouldn't explain it. A French-Norman input is quite possible in my opinion.

Would be most very plausible..... :-P

Nevertheless, it has been said that Southeastern England was settled by the Belgae tribe; so they may have a close affinity with Belgians and Southern Dutch peoples which draws them in a Southern direction.


What about SW England and areas like Shropshire, Worcestershire etc?

Preserved Britons; very French-like most probably.

[Peterski]

South-East England is not just a Celtic + Germanic mix, they also have Roman / Southern European ancestry:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43712587

"The third possibility is that scholars have simply underestimated the genetic impact of the Roman occupation, which lasted in Britain from AD 43 until 410. Roman settlers from the Italian peninsula would have traced a large proportion of their ancestry to Neolithic farmers like those that inhabited Britain before the arrival of the Beaker people."

I wrote about it long ago in Kazimiera's thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?194288-Maps-of-Britain-and-Ireland%92s-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-and-DNA&p=4040401&viewfull=1#post4040401

[Albannach]

Would be most very plausible..... :-P

Nevertheless, it has been said that Southeastern England was settled by the Belgae tribe; so they may have a close affinity with Belgians and Southern Dutch peoples which draws them in a Southern direction.



Preserved Britons; very French-like most probably.

Is there a genetic difference between different groups of insular Celts, with some being more French like as you say and others being more Dutch like?

Because looking at the Gedmatch results for Rathlin it doesn't look very French like at all.

Admix Results (sorted):

#Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06



Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 7.71
2 Danish 8.22
3 Irish 8.29
4 West_Scottish 8.61
5 North_Dutch 9.59
6 Southeast_English 9.62
7 Orcadian 10.88
8 Southwest_English 11.43
9 Norwegian 11.78
10 Swedish 12.03
11 South_Dutch 12.1
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_Norwegian 12.98
14 Southwest_Finnish 14
15 East_German 14.55
16 West_German 14.87
17 Austrian 16.65
18 French 17.07
19 Finnish 17.76
20 Hungarian 18.8

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.2% Irish + 7.8% MA-1 @ 6.95
2 85.3% Irish + 14.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.04
3 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Estonian_Polish @ 7.12
4 84.5% Irish + 15.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
5 82.7% West_Scottish + 17.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 7.13
6 81.5% Irish + 18.5% La_Brana-1 @ 7.13
7 85.2% Irish + 14.8% Belorussian @ 7.15
8 83.7% West_Scottish + 16.3% Estonian_Polish @ 7.16
9 74.2% Irish + 25.8% Southwest_Finnish @ 7.16
10 85.5% Irish + 14.5% Southwest_Russian @ 7.17
11 83.6% West_Scottish + 16.4% Belorussian @ 7.18
12 87.9% Irish + 12.1% Erzya @ 7.2
13 79.8% West_Scottish + 20.2% La_Brana-1 @ 7.21
14 84.4% West_Scottish + 15.6% Kargopol_Russian @ 7.22
15 86% Irish + 14% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.22
16 84.1% West_Scottish + 15.9% Southwest_Russian @ 7.24
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% MA-1 @ 7.25
18 87.2% Irish + 12.8% Lithuanian @ 7.26
19 83.8% Irish + 16.2% East_Finnish @ 7.28
20 84.5% West_Scottish + 15.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 7.28

[Peterski]

Here is a compilation of several maps based on autosomal DNA and Y-DNA:

https://i.imgur.com/zDIJxxt.png

https://i.imgur.com/zDIJxxt.png

And political maps (Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in period 550-575 AD) are from:

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMap.htm

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBrit...apAD450-700.htm (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD450-700.htm)

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/kingdoms/index.html

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/...62557647479.jpg (http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/British-Isles-3-Anglo-Saxon-600-final-JPG-e1462557647479.jpg)

[Peterski]

Population density in England in 1086 AD based on Domesday Book:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Approximate-population-densities-in-AD-1086-The-small-grey-dots-are-Domesday-census_fig2_265151629

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew_Bevan2/publication/265151629/figure/fig2/AS:295831954575361@1447543242141/Approximate-population-densities-in-AD-1086-The-small-grey-dots-are-Domesday-census.png

[Graham]

The arable easy farm English land would have been a good divider with the invaders getting some decent land and pushing the locals west into harder conditions.

You can see why East Anglia was attractive.

https://www.environmentalgeography.nl/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/LUI_3.jpghttp://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/48.1524884654384,-16.897876012499978,60.098510724124274,12.369702112 500022/background/?Name=Great%20Britain

[Latinus]

Because they speak a Germanic language and look more like Germans than like Irish.

But the Anglo Saxon invaders didn't exterminate the native Bretons. They were a ruling class that introduced their language and culture, but didn't wipe out the earlier inhabitants of the island.

I doubt that English people look more like Germans than Irish.

[Graham]

But the Anglo Saxon invaders didn't exterminate the native Bretons. They were a ruling class that introduced their language and culture, but didn't wipe out the earlier inhabitants of the island.

I doubt that English people look more like Germans than Irish.

You don't have to kill to change a population though. The Anglo Saxon parts stayed in the easier going parts of Britain, compared to the Britons, gaels & Norse. They could support a family easier.

Of course the black death would not have helped and other means of the Population bottleneck. :)

[Bobby Martnen]

But the Anglo Saxon invaders didn't exterminate the native Bretons. They were a ruling class that introduced their language and culture, but didn't wipe out the earlier inhabitants of the island.

I doubt that English people look more like Germans than Irish.

They massively outbred them.

[Latinus]

They massively outbred them.

Source? It seems that you, like many people in these Anthroforums, really wish to make English closer to Germans and Scandinavians than others nations of the British Isles.

[Bobby Martnen]

Source? It seems that you, like many people in these Anthroforums, really wish to make English closer to Germans and Scandinavians than others nations of the British Isles.

English and Germans are both of Germanic roots. Irish are Celtic.

[Tooting Carmen]

English and Germans are both of Germanic roots. Irish are Celtic.

English are MUCH more similar to Irish people than Germans.

[Sikeliot]

English and Germans are both of Germanic roots. Irish are Celtic.

That's a very simplistic and elementary view. The Irish have Germanic input from Vikings and indirectly from English ancestry whereas the English have Celtic ancestry especially in western England, mixed with Germanic.

[Catkin]

My dad is mostly South-East English and ironically he often scores Irish in Gedmatch tests

Eurogenes K13:
1 Irish 3.27
2 Orcadian 3.58
3 North_Dutch 3.61
4 West_Scottish 3.88
5 Danish 3.99

Puntdnal k15:
1 Irish 1.14
2 Orcadian 1.81
3 English 2.3
4 Austrian 2.62
5 Slovenian 2.78

MDLP k16 modern:
1 Irish (Munster) 4.06
2 Dutch (Netherlands) 4.08
3 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 4.23
4 Scottish (Fife) 4.46
5 Irish (Connacht) 4.54

[Sikeliot]

My dad is mostly South-East English and ironically he often scores Irish in Gedmatch tests

Eurogenes K13:
1 Irish 3.27
2 Orcadian 3.58
3 North_Dutch 3.61
4 West_Scottish 3.88
5 Danish 3.99

Puntdnal k15:
1 Irish 1.14
2 Orcadian 1.81
3 English 2.3
4 Austrian 2.62
5 Slovenian 2.78

MDLP k16 modern:
1 Irish (Munster) 4.06
2 Dutch (Netherlands) 4.08
3 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 4.23
4 Scottish (Fife) 4.46
5 Irish (Connacht) 4.54


Which part of England? The Germanic input is mostly East Anglia and Essex.

[Aren]

My dad is mostly South-East English and ironically he often scores Irish in Gedmatch tests

Eurogenes K13:
1 Irish 3.27
2 Orcadian 3.58
3 North_Dutch 3.61
4 West_Scottish 3.88
5 Danish 3.99

Puntdnal k15:
1 Irish 1.14
2 Orcadian 1.81
3 English 2.3
4 Austrian 2.62
5 Slovenian 2.78

MDLP k16 modern:
1 Irish (Munster) 4.06
2 Dutch (Netherlands) 4.08
3 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 4.23
4 Scottish (Fife) 4.46
5 Irish (Connacht) 4.54

Maybe post Eurogenes K15 which actually has a component peaking and based on a pure Germanic area(North Sea peaking in Norway).

[Catkin]

Maybe post Eurogenes K15 which actually has a component peaking and based on a pure Germanic area(North Sea peaking in Norway).

Yes, K15 makes him Orcadian then West Scottish. K15 puts my mum who’s half Irish half English as pretty Scandinavian, with Swedish, Norwegian and Danish before anything British or Irish. Seems to overemphasise Germanic a bit. She scores Irish on K13 too.

[Catkin]

Which part of England? The Germanic input is mostly East Anglia and Essex.

West London through to south central England, a bit in East Anglia. He is just under a quarter mixed Irish (Cork), Welsh and Scottish, but the rest south English. His Y-DNA is the old I2a2a*.

[Aren]

Yes, K15 makes him Orcadian then West Scottish. K15 puts my mum who’s half Irish half English as pretty Scandinavian, with Swedish, Norwegian and Danish before anything British or Irish. Seems to overemphasise Germanic a bit. She scores Irish on K13 too.

Well that calculator isn't perfect either. Acutally there are no good calculators on Gedmatch for NW Euros. Lukasz, a member here created a pretty good calculator(K47) with a Celtic(based on Cornwall and Ireland I think),a North Sea Germanic(North Dutch and SE English) and a Scando-Germanic(based on Norway) component but I think he has given up on doing oracle for it. Have you tried it for your parents?

[Catkin]

Well that calculator isn't perfect either. Acutally there are no good calculators on Gedmatch for NW Euros. Lukasz, a member here created a pretty good calculator(K47) with a Celtic(based on Cornwall and Ireland I think),a North Sea Germanic(North Dutch and SE English) and a Scando-Germanic(based on Norway) component but I think he has given up on doing oracle for it. Have you tried it for your parents?

No I don’t think I have, sounds interesting though :)

[Aren]

No I don’t think I have, sounds interesting though :)

If you know how to work DIY calcs here are the files
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fk2ygti0RIU92rcm70OQ_LmovtIle9Qr/view

[Catkin]

If you know how to work DIY calcs here are the files
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fk2ygti0RIU92rcm70OQ_LmovtIle9Qr/view

Thanks, I haven’t got my laptop right now but I’ll try it sometime.

[Bobby Martnen]

That's a very simplistic and elementary view. The Irish have Germanic input from Vikings and indirectly from English ancestry whereas the English have Celtic ancestry especially in western England, mixed with Germanic.

Socioculturally, English and Germans are closer. Pennsylvania Dutch (who are actually German) were liked by Anglos much more than Irish were in America in the 1800s.

[Peterski]

They massively outbred them.

Sources? Wikipedia claims otherwise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_language_decline_in_England

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the prime reason for the death of Brittonic in most of England was that in the fifth to sixth centuries, the new political elite of Old English-speaking immigrants made it politically expedient for other people in Britain to adopt their new rulers' language and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity."

Geneticists so far have estimated the Anglo-Saxon input in England as no more than 30% in autosomal DNA and perhaps slightly more in Y-DNA.

Heinrich Harke estimated the number of immigrants as 200,000 over the timespan of 100 years (450-550 AD). Around 490-500 AD Anglo-Saxon advance was halted by Britons (battle of Badon) and for the next 50-60 years borders were stable. But Anglo-Saxons were growing stronger due to continued immigration from the continent to eastern Britain during that time (if we believe Harke's theory of prolonged immigration). They launched another offensive into British lands after 550 AD.

Archaeology (including distribution of Pagan vs. Christian burials) confirms that the period 500-550 AD was peaceful with no changing borders.

[Neon Knight]

French there is largely Breton (Bretons are descended from the Celtic people of Britain who fled the Anglo-Saxons' arrival in the UK).

But as we can see, the western parts of Britain in general (western England, Wales, western Scotland) all have this component higher.If there was a very large migration of southern and western Britons to Bretagne then we would expect the present Bretagne people to also have inherited Germanic DNA from the Britons which they probably had before the Romans came. It could be that migrating Bronze Age Bretons actually provided the base population for the south-west Britons.

[Septentrion]

What intrigues me is how east England, despite being more Danish-like as you pointed out, is considerably more southern shifted than Scotland, Ireland and even northern England. Bell Beakers entered the isles from the east so a Bronze Age link wouldn't explain it. A French-Norman input is quite possible in my opinion.

Doos! The thing for being "northern-shifted" has nothing to do with being "Germanic!"The Irish are in fact overall more "northern-shifted" than the English, Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Austrians, Swiss and all these respective populations have a higher Germanic genetic input than the Irish! The Irish are more "northern-shifted", because their ancestors were a Northern European people with much less admixtures from Romans or anyone, so they were in some sort more "pure" until Viking, Norman or English colonialism! Remember Romans never set their Mediterranean feet on Irish soil. However, they did so in Britain, Low Countries, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and so on. The Irish are also more "northern-shifted" than their Celtic neighbors in Wales, southwestern England ( Cornwall in particular) because of the same reason.

[Septentrion]

But the Anglo Saxon invaders didn't exterminate the native Bretons. They were a ruling class that introduced their language and culture, but didn't wipe out the earlier inhabitants of the island.

I doubt that English people look more like Germans than Irish.

Germans don't have one look! Some look like Hitler, others look like Oliver Kahn, and others Helmut Kohl, etc... The sure thing is that the English are much more Germanic than the Irish, if over of their Y-DNA is Germanic. It makes a difference.

[Septentrion]

I dispute that they look more German than Irish.

The English are more similar to the Dutch, Danish and Belgians ( Flemish in particular) in their "Germanic" looks and others look more like the Welsh than the Irish ( too light-eyed) I'd say. Germans are too diverse varying from Danish to West Slavic ( a little too eastern for the English), Celtic and "Balkan-like" looks.

[Ayetooey]

Sources? Wikipedia claims otherwise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_language_decline_in_England

"The modern scholarly consensus is that the prime reason for the death of Brittonic in most of England was that in the fifth to sixth centuries, the new political elite of Old English-speaking immigrants made it politically expedient for other people in Britain to adopt their new rulers' language and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity."

Geneticists so far have estimated the Anglo-Saxon input in England as no more than 30% in autosomal DNA and perhaps slightly more in Y-DNA.

Heinrich Harke estimated the number of immigrants as 200,000 over the timespan of 100 years (450-550 AD). Around 490-500 AD Anglo-Saxon advance was halted by Britons (battle of Badon) and for the next 50-60 years borders were stable. But Anglo-Saxons were growing stronger due to continued immigration from the continent to eastern Britain during that time (if we believe Harke's theory of prolonged immigration). They launched another offensive into British lands after 550 AD.

Archaeology (including distribution of Pagan vs. Christian burials) confirms that the period 500-550 AD was peaceful with no changing borders.

I'm quoting this so certain people can't ignore it.

[Ayetooey]

The English are more similar to the Dutch, Danish and Belgians ( Flemish in particular) in their "Germanic" looks and others look more like the Welsh than the Irish ( too light-eyed) I'd say. Germans are too diverse varying from Danish to West Slavic ( a little too eastern for the English), Celtic and "Balkan-like" looks.

Horseshit. Why do you ignore all the maps which show English plotting next to there Britannic neighbours NOT Danish or Germans, or all the autosomal studies posted which show they're barely a quarter Germanic on average? Please share some autosomal studies which show that the English are majority Germanic like you claim.

And don't try and wriggle out of it, or I'll pull the quote where you claimed that the English are more Germanic than the Germans of Germany, which is the most retarded thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.

[Sikeliot]

Horseshit. Why do you ignore all the maps which show English plotting next to there Britannic neighbours NOT Danish or Germans, or all the autosomal studies posted which show they're barely a quarter Germanic on average? Please share some autosomal studies which show that the English are majority Germanic like you claim.

And don't try and wriggle out of it, or I'll pull the quote where you claimed that the English are more Germanic than the Germans of Germany, which is the most retarded thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.

What he is confused about is the idea that the Irish do not have Germanic ancestry. They have plenty of it, both direct and indirect (through English input into Ireland). If we consider both populations to be mixtures of related Celtic and Germanic inputs, it makes sense that the English are closer related to the Irish than to Germans.

[Ayetooey]

What he is confused about is the idea that the Irish do not have Germanic ancestry. They have plenty of it, both direct and indirect (through English input into Ireland). If we consider both populations to be mixtures of related Celtic and Germanic inputs, it makes sense that the English are closer related to the Irish than to Germans.

What annoys me is he keeps on posted vague linguistic evidence and Y dna studies and ignores the autosomal evidence that I, you and others have consistently posted in this and other related threads on this topic. The idea that the English are pure Germanics who wiped out all the natives is a massive myth that was debunked decades ago, scientific thought here recognises the English are majority "pre Anglo-Saxon" IE Celtic, with Anglo-Saxon culture and partial ancestry through assimilation, it seems this modern way of thinking hasn't made it to Belgium yet.

And yes, you are bang on about the Germanic ancestry. Good luck persuading any Irish or ultra Scottish nationalist they are as Germanic almost as many English (in some cases, MORE GERMANIC than English, if you go to some parts of South-West England), they will either have a heart attack or refuse to believe you out of stubbornness, it is a political thing in many respects, and no Irish nationalist wants to admit ANY affinity with the English, the idea of these savages from Germany invading these islands and butchering the native Celts, and then colonising the Irish has a nice romantic feeling about it for them.

No doubt that the English and the Irish are closer to each other, and overall all populations from the British isles plot extremely close to each other, not to Germany or Sweden, any basic genetic plotting map that's posted on these forums day in day out will display this. I'm going to sleep so maybe Septentrion will have produced some evidence to prove the English are autosomally majority German by the morning, I doubt it.

[Sikeliot]

What annoys me is he keeps on posted vague linguistic evidence and Y dna studies and ignores the autosomal evidence that I, you and others have consistently posted in this and other related threads on this topic. The idea that the English are pure Germanics who wiped out all the natives is a massive myth that was debunked decades ago, scientific thought here recognises the English are majority "pre Anglo-Saxon" IE Celtic, with Anglo-Saxon culture and partial ancestry through assimilation, it seems this modern way of thinking hasn't made it to Belgium yet.

And yes, you are bang on about the Germanic ancestry. Good luck persuading any Irish or ultra Scottish nationalist they are as Germanic almost as many English (in some cases, MORE GERMANIC than English, if you go to some parts of South-West England), they will either have a heart attack or refuse to believe you out of stubbornness, it is a political thing in many respects, and no Irish nationalist wants to admit ANY affinity with the English, the idea of these savages from Germany invading these islands and butchering the native Celts, and then colonising the Irish has a nice romantic feeling about it for them.

No doubt that the English and the Irish are closer to each other, and overall all populations from the British isles plot extremely close to each other, not to Germany or Sweden, any basic genetic plotting map that's posted on these forums day in day out will display this. I'm going to sleep so maybe Septentrion will have produced some evidence to prove the English are autosomally majority German by the morning, I doubt it.



Here is from the Irish DNA Atlas... I added up "Swedish "Danish" "German" and "Norwegian" and ranked how they compare for different parts of Ireland and Britain.

Scots are more Germanic than SW England, and on par with most of England in fact. Irish are more Germanic than the Welsh. Connacht in west Ireland is as Germanic as the Cornish.

So it appears to work like this: England/Scotland > Ireland > Wales

N England I: 50%
England I: 49%
N England II: 46%
Marches I: 44%
N England III: 44%
N England IV: 43%
N Scotland II: 42%
N Scotland I: 41%
Devon: 41%
N Ireland I: 40%
N Ireland II: 39%
N Wales: 38%
W Scotland I: 36%
N Ireland III: 35%
S Wales I: 35%
Cornwall I: 34%
Connacht: 33%
Central Ireland: 33%
Ulster: 33%
N Munster: 33%
Dublin: 32%
Leinster: 32%
S Munster: 31%
S Wales II: 28%
S Wales III: 26%

[Septentrion]

Horseshit. Why do you ignore all the maps which show English plotting next to there Britannic neighbours NOT Danish or Germans, or all the autosomal studies posted which show they're barely a quarter Germanic on average? Please share some autosomal studies which show that the English are majority Germanic like you claim.

And don't try and wriggle out of it, or I'll pull the quote where you claimed that the English are more Germanic than the Germans of Germany, which is the most retarded thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.

Rubbish! Rubbish! You are twisting my words, please don't do it next time! I am well aware of the genetic maps posted on the thread. You are going to be Firstly Germans genetically cluster in a more southern shift compared to the Dutch, Danish, British and Irish people. It has nothing to do with being Germanic or Celtic. What is retarded is your ignorance. There were Celtic and Slavic tribal groups in Germany. You are confusing the word "Germany" and "Germanic" again. The most Germanic part of Germany is the very northwest.
Yes that part was part of the Germanic homeland and is more Germanic than England, however the whole of Germany is much more complicated story.
https://i2.wp.com/thedockyards.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Germanic_Europe.gif

[Septentrion]

Here is from the Irish DNA Atlas... I added up "Swedish "Danish" "German" and "Norwegian" and ranked how they compare for different parts of Ireland and Britain.

Scots are more Germanic than SW England, and on par with most of England in fact. Irish are more Germanic than the Welsh. Connacht in west Ireland is as Germanic as the Cornish.

So it appears to work like this: England/Scotland > Ireland > Wales

N England I: 50%
England I: 49%
N England II: 46%
Marches I: 44%
N England III: 44%
N England IV: 43%
N Scotland II: 42%
N Scotland I: 41%
Devon: 41%
N Ireland I: 40%
N Ireland II: 39%
N Wales: 38%
W Scotland I: 36%
N Ireland III: 35%
S Wales I: 35%
Cornwall I: 34%
Connacht: 33%
Central Ireland: 33%
Ulster: 33%
N Munster: 33%
Dublin: 32%
Leinster: 32%
S Munster: 31%
S Wales II: 28%
S Wales III: 26%

Sikeliot, you are being ridiculous. You cannot do it like that. You are assuming that all Germans are Germanic, that is wrong! Then why didn't you add Belgium due that the POBI study used Flemish samples to represent Belgium. We the Flemish are Germanics! Or perhaps you have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Germans. Your logic is wrong, at least two-thirds of the Welsh, Irish, Highland Scottish males belong to the Celtic paternal lineages ( especially the R1b-L21). Now by using your logic of adding "Swedish", "Norwegian", "Danish" and " German" clusters, West Wales scores a whooping 44%! Which I think is ridiculous. About 25% of the Welsh have Germanic paternal lineages for your information. By the way Cornwall is a small part of South West England, so cannot represent that whole region. Your logic makes West Wales as Germanic as North England. Get your facts straight.
Ireland is not as Germanic as Cornwall, 40% of the Cornish paternal lineages are Germanic in origin. Cornwall differ from Wales due to a higher Anglo-Saxon input.

[Westbrook]

Wow you people are bizarrely serious about this stuff
Horseshit. Why do you ignore all the maps which show English plotting next to there Britannic neighbours NOT Danish or Germans, or all the autosomal studies posted which show they're barely a quarter Germanic on average? Please share some autosomal studies which show that the English are majority Germanic like you claim.

And don't try and wriggle out of it, or I'll pull the quote where you claimed that the English are more Germanic than the Germans of Germany, which is the most retarded thing I've seen anyone post on this forum.

[Septentrion]

Looking here, it appears so. This is again from Irish DNA Atlas.

Within the British samples, the highest amount of French/Breton-like ancestry, and the least German/Danish, seem to be the following:

Cornwall
Devon
Marches (England's border regions with Wales)
Wales
Western Scotland

http://county-wise.abcounties.com/files/2013/06/The-Counties.png


https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg

According to POBI genetic study, Britons still live in Anglo-Saxon tribal kingdoms as they did in the 7th century.

[J. Ketch]

I don't know why people keep posting the POBI graphics with regards to admixture as though it's illuminating, all it seems to denote is that the British can be modelled as virtually a mixture of modern North French types and North Germanic types, which was pretty obvious and we already knew from their position on PCAs. It doesn't say much vis-a-vis literal Insular Celtic vs North Germanic admixture since the Iron Age.

[Graham]

Watched a programme recently about how the Saxons were in a much more liberal peaceful environment in the East, where they mixed more and farmed compared to in the West it was more combative. Perhaps as you go east towards Anglia it is business as usual, people getting on with their daily lives and close to what we have today, were the West was about territory, swords and land.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, you are being ridiculous. You cannot do it like that. You are assuming that all Germans are Germanic, that is wrong! Then why didn't you add Belgium due that the POBI study used Flemish samples to represent Belgium. We the Flemish are Germanics! Or perhaps you have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Germans. Your logic is wrong, at least two-thirds of the Welsh, Irish, Highland Scottish males belong to the Celtic paternal lineages ( especially the R1b-L21). Now by using your logic of adding "Swedish", "Norwegian", "Danish" and " German" clusters, West Wales scores a whooping 44%! Which I think is ridiculous. About 25% of the Welsh have Germanic paternal lineages for your information. By the way Cornwall is a small part of South West England, so cannot represent that whole region. Your logic makes West Wales as Germanic as North England. Get your facts straight.
Ireland is not as Germanic as Cornwall, 40% of the Cornish paternal lineages are Germanic in origin. Cornwall differ from Wales due to a higher Anglo-Saxon input.

I could add Belgium but it will lessen the distinction in Germanic DNA between some parts of England and some parts of Ireland so do you really want me to add it? :lol:

You have to accept all Brits and Irish are some mixture of Germanic and Celtic.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here is from the Irish DNA Atlas... I added up "Swedish "Danish" "German" and "Norwegian" and ranked how they compare for different parts of Ireland and Britain.

Scots are more Germanic than SW England, and on par with most of England in fact. Irish are more Germanic than the Welsh. Connacht in west Ireland is as Germanic as the Cornish.

So it appears to work like this: England/Scotland > Ireland > Wales

N England I: 50%
England I: 49%
N England II: 46%
Marches I: 44%
N England III: 44%
N England IV: 43%
N Scotland II: 42%
N Scotland I: 41%
Devon: 41%
N Ireland I: 40%
N Ireland II: 39%
N Wales: 38%
W Scotland I: 36%
N Ireland III: 35%
S Wales I: 35%
Cornwall I: 34%
Connacht: 33%
Central Ireland: 33%
Ulster: 33%
N Munster: 33%
Dublin: 32%
Leinster: 32%
S Munster: 31%
S Wales II: 28%
S Wales III: 26%

Connacht can't be more Germanic than Leinster and Dublin though? Dublin and Leinster is where the Pale was and also the largest Viking settlements as well as where most of the English went. That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Septentrion]

I could add Belgium but it will lessen the distinction in Germanic DNA between some parts of England and some parts of Ireland so do you really want me to add it? :lol:

You have to accept all Brits and Irish are some mixture of Germanic and Celtic.

You did not catch what I said. The English, Lowland Scottish, Orcadians, Shetlanders are the most Germanic people of the Isles! This doesn't mean that Germanic genes are not found all the Isles. The POBI doesn't make a specific study of Germanic vs Celtic. In studies focused on the Anglo-Saxons clearly shows that it is the English especially the Eastern English who score highest in Germanic genes. This is why, I said the Y-chromosome is a good indicator of the Germanic element in British Isles populace. Due to the fact that, most of the Germanic invaders were generally male warriors who when they got to Britain took Celtic females as wives, Germanic women were usually brought way after the conquest. However they made sure they dominated the male line. This is to this day over half of the English and Lowland male lineages came from Germanic sources!
All we have to do is to look at one of the Germanic paternal lineage ( Y-DNA haplogroup subclade) R1b-U106/R1b-S21 ( "Proto-Germanic") which is very common in North Sea region of Netherlands and Denmark.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=75324&d=1525980418
You can see for yourself that is within Eastern, Central and Southern England ( even in Cornwall) that it is most frequent and shows a sharp difference with Wales and a gradual one with Scotland.
Then in the same manner, we can take a look at the most common Celtic paternal line in the British Isles, the R1b-S145/R1b-L21 ( "Proto-Celtic") and see it's frequency.
http://odessatx.us/DistributionBritain&Ireland.jpg
Now take a look at Ireland and Wales vs England and you immediately get the picture. Remember at the end of the Bronze, the most common and dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of all British and Irish men was the R1b-S145/R1b-L21 which was brought by the Proto-Celts!

[J. Ketch]

What is N. England 1? Yorkshire or NW England?

[J. Ketch]

What is N. England 1? Yorkshire or NW England?
After having a quick look I believe it represents West Yorkshire, which is almost NW England (Lancashire itself isn't represented).
https://i.postimg.cc/2jMNygx5/Capture.jpg

That tallies with the K36 PCA that shows NW England as as close to the Germanic urheimat as the South East or closer, and far closer than NE England.
https://i.postimg.cc/cHfkJ51v/k36dad.jpg

So can we put to bed this simplistic premise that the East is always more Germanic than the West?

[Grace O'Malley]

You did not catch what I said. The English, Lowland Scottish, Orcadians, Shetlanders are the most Germanic people of the Isles! This doesn't mean that Germanic genes are not found all the Isles. The POBI doesn't make a specific study of Germanic vs Celtic. In studies focused on the Anglo-Saxons clearly shows that it is the English especially the Eastern English who score highest in Germanic genes. This is why, I said the Y-chromosome is a good indicator of the Germanic element in British Isles populace. Due to the fact that, most of the Germanic invaders were generally male warriors who when they got to Britain took Celtic females as wives, Germanic women were usually brought way after the conquest. However they made sure they dominated the male line. This is to this day over half of the English and Lowland male lineages came from Germanic sources!
All we have to do is to look at one of the Germanic paternal lineage ( Y-DNA haplogroup subclade) R1b-U106/R1b-S21 ( "Proto-Germanic") which is very common in North Sea region of Netherlands and Denmark.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=75324&d=1525980418
You can see for yourself that is within Eastern, Central and Southern England ( even in Cornwall) that it is most frequent and shows a sharp difference with Wales and a gradual one with Scotland.
Then in the same manner, we can take a look at the most common Celtic paternal line in the British Isles, the R1b-S145/R1b-L21 ( "Proto-Celtic") and see it's frequency.
http://odessatx.us/DistributionBritain&Ireland.jpg
Now take a look at Ireland and Wales vs England and you immediately get the picture. Remember at the end of the Bronze, the most common and dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of all British and Irish men was the R1b-S145/R1b-L21 which was brought by the Proto-Celts!

I don't know how definitive those maps are. With the R1b-L21 map are they even counting M222 which is downstream and other subclades other than L21? The numbers don't look accurate.

http://odessatx.us/DistributionBritain&Ireland.jpg

I know that M222 is very high in Northwest Ireland, Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland but that map doesn't appear to show subclades under L21 because the numbers aren't correct so I doubt the other maps are accurate either. It might just be showing basic L21 but most Irish for example are not just L21.

[Grace O'Malley]

After having a quick look I believe it represents West Yorkshire, which is almost NW England (Lancashire itself isn't represented).
https://i.postimg.cc/2jMNygx5/Capture.jpg

That tallies with the K36 PCA that shows NW England as as close to the Germanic urheimat as the South East or closer, and far closer than NE England.
https://i.postimg.cc/cHfkJ51v/k36dad.jpg

So can we put to bed this simplistic premise that the East is always more Germanic than the West?

What is interesting in that map is the Netherlands divide. There is quite a variance there for such a small country.

[Septentrion]

I don't know how definitive those maps are. With the R1b-L21 map are they even counting M222 which is downstream and other subclades other than L21? The numbers don't look accurate.

http://odessatx.us/DistributionBritain&Ireland.jpg

I know that M222 is very high in Northwest Ireland, Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland but that map doesn't appear to show subclades under L21 because the numbers aren't correct so I doubt the other maps are accurate either. It might just be showing basic L21 but most Irish for example are not just L21.

The M222 is only a subclade of the L21, you might need a different map. Since it concentrates only in certain parts.

[Grace O'Malley]

The M222 is only a subclade of the L21, you might need a different map. Since it concentrates only in certain parts.

Yes that's right but it is still L21 as is most of the R1b in Ireland so the figures look low in the map you posted. All I'm saying is it's not even showing all the R1b.

[Septentrion]

What is N. England 1? Yorkshire or NW England?

On the map, North England is the region of England directly north and west of the Yorkshires.

[J. Ketch]

On the map, North England is the region of England directly north and west of the Yorkshires.
There are 3 North England regions, No. 1 is based on West Yorkshire, which is part of the same industrial region as Lancashire and would likely be similar, that together with the main England cluster (Central & South East England) represents the genetics of the majority of the English population. North England II and III represent the more Celtic outliers, NE England and Cumbria.

[Septentrion]

South-West England is not as "Celtic" as many put it to be.
It has the third highest frequency of the Germanic R1b-U106 Y-DNA in the British Isles.
It has the third lowest frequency of red hair genes in the British Isles.
It has the third lowest frequency for dark hair in Britain (This is according to a study done on White British male recruits from all Great Britain).

[Septentrion]

There are 3 North England regions, No. 1 is based on West Yorkshire, which is part of the same industrial region as Lancashire and would likely be similar, that together with the main England cluster (Central & South East England) represents the genetics of the majority of the English population. North England II and III represent the more Celtic outliers, NE England and Cumbria.

I am aware of that. I am saying on the genetic map, North England refers to regions north and west of the Yorkshires. Here the Yorkshires are just put together as one unit.

[Sikeliot]

Connacht can't be more Germanic than Leinster and Dublin though? Dublin and Leinster is where the Pale was and also the largest Viking settlements as well as where most of the English went. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Consider population density and the impact that has on how many migrants may be needed to make an appreciable impact in each place. Connacht is closest genetically to Leinster of all other provinces.

[Septentrion]

Yes that's right but it is still L21 as is most of the R1b in Ireland so the figures look low in the map you posted. All I'm saying is it's not even showing all the R1b.

Well the R1b-L21 is the most dominant in Ireland, but there are other R1b subclades such as the U152, also the R1b-S21 and so on. Perhaps we should rely perfectly on the percentage, rather see where it is mostly concentrated vs other areas of Britain.

[Albannach]

After having a quick look I believe it represents West Yorkshire, which is almost NW England (Lancashire itself isn't represented).
https://i.postimg.cc/2jMNygx5/Capture.jpg

That tallies with the K36 PCA that shows NW England as as close to the Germanic urheimat as the South East or closer, and far closer than NE England.
https://i.postimg.cc/cHfkJ51v/k36dad.jpg

So can we put to bed this simplistic premise that the East is always more Germanic than the West?

Interesting, from this it looks like Wales has quite a bit of the German component, more so than Scotland it seems. Belgium seems quite high in NE Scotland and Orkney too, I remember seeing a distribution map a few years ago and U152 also seems quite high in NE Scotland, I wonder if this hints at a possible Belgae origin for the Picts?

The Welsh don't appear to have considerably more of the French component than most of Scotland either.

[Septentrion]

Which part of England? The Germanic input is mostly East Anglia and Essex.

Corrections! The Germanic genetic input is found all over Britain even in Wales, but it is strongest in Eastern England.

[Septentrion]

I dispute that they look more German than Irish.

Yes. The English look "more Germanic" than the Irish as a whole. Certain traits such as the MC1R gene responsible for red hair, freckly appearance is more frequent amongst the Irish than the English. The IRF4 gene which shows the combination of dark hair, blue eyes, freckles, lower skin tanning ability is stronger in Ireland too. Skin type 1 is more frequent among the Irish than the English. All the traits, I mentioned as a whole are more frequent in Celtic than Germanic groups. Northern and Eastern England are regions with highest incidence of blondism in British Isles!

[celticdragongod]

You have to accept all Brits and Irish are some mixture of Germanic and Celtic.

Yes, but the Brits tend to be more Germanic and less Celtic than the Irish.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I dispute that they look more German than Irish.

Probably depends which part of France we are talking about.

[J. Ketch]

Yes, but the Brits tend to be more Germanic and less Celtic than the Irish.
I think the English are significantly more 'Germanic' (that is, from ancient Germanic speaking people) than the Irish, but it doesn't look that way because the Irish are nearly entirely of undiluted Bell Beaker stock, which is genetically very close to modern Scandinavians, if not phenotypically. For example my dad falls in the Icelandic and Norwegian clusters in G25, but he doesn't look Scandinavian at all (at least not typically), but distinctly Irish. IMO the Southern Britons had a significant Continental Celtic influence which drew them South (as well as later Roman influence), before the Anglo-Saxon conquests.

[Sikeliot]

I think the English are significantly more 'Germanic' (that is, from ancient Germanic speaking people) than the Irish, but it doesn't look that way because the Irish are nearly entirely of undiluted Bell Beaker stock, which is genetically very close to modern Scandinavians, if not phenotypically. For example my dad falls in the Icelandic and Norwegian clusters in G25, but he doesn't look Scandinavian at all, distinctly Irish instead. IMO the Southern Britons had a significant Continental Celtic influence which drew them South (as well as later Roman influence), before the Anglo-Saxon conquests.

Irish are also close to Scandinavians because of the input from the Vikings. However I disagree that the Irish do not look Scandinavian -- many times they do.

[J. Ketch]

Irish are also close to Scandinavians because of the input from the Vikings. However I disagree that the Irish do not look Scandinavian -- many times they do.
Sometimes, but 9 times out of 10 I think I can tell them apart. The phenotypical difference is obviously a lot larger than the genetic difference.

[Sikeliot]

Sometimes, but 9 times out of 10 I think I can tell them apart. The phenotypical difference is obviously a lot larger than the genetic difference.

I think a lot of people from the middle of Ireland (Leinster and Connacht) look Scandinavian.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I think the English are significantly more 'Germanic' (that is, from ancient Germanic speaking people) than the Irish, but it doesn't look that way because the Irish are nearly entirely of undiluted Bell Beaker stock, which is genetically very close to modern Scandinavians, if not phenotypically. For example my dad falls in the Icelandic and Norwegian clusters in G25, but he doesn't look Scandinavian at all (at least not typically), but distinctly Irish. IMO the Southern Britons had a significant Continental Celtic influence which drew them South (as well as later Roman influence), before the Anglo-Saxon conquests.

I agree with this. There's lots of darker Welsh people, for example. Brittonic Celts were more darker than Gaels. Irish people have a distinct thing about them phenotypically, but they do look closer to Scandinavians than the English can even be (probably depends where in England we are talking about, I would imagine areas with more Anglo-Saxon influence could even look more Germanic than the Irish).

[J. Ketch]

I think a lot of people from the middle of Ireland (Leinster and Connacht) look Scandinavian.
I'm not getting into a subjective argument about looks. All I can say is my family is from there and they overwhelmingly look distinctly Irish to me.

[Peterski]

Extent of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms until ca. 600 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/osqDFjP.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amcyb_q4MGE

Extent of Romanization in Pre-Anglo-Saxon times:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Britain.4th.century.Roman.infrastructure.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/End.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg

[Peterski]

Western part of Great Britain is more 'Celtic' genetically, in both England, Scotland, and Wales?

My opinion:

Western part is more Celtic in England and Wales, but not in Northern Scotland.

North-Eastern Scotland is probably just as Celtic as North-Western Scotland.

[Septentrion]

Looking here, it appears so. This is again from Irish DNA Atlas.

Within the British samples, the highest amount of French/Breton-like ancestry, and the least German/Danish, seem to be the following:

Cornwall
Devon
Marches (England's border regions with Wales)
Wales
Western Scotland

http://county-wise.abcounties.com/files/2013/06/The-Counties.png


https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig3_HTML.jpg

Devon, Cornwall, Marches are still more Germanic ( Anglo - Saxon) than Wales, Western Scotland.