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The Lawspeaker
02-21-2009, 04:43 PM
As inspired by the similar thread by our much valued comrade Aptrangr on GW:

I would prefer a more folkish form of Switzerland. Uniting all of the Netherlands (also those in the German and French borderlands and Flanders) into a loose confederation of cantons. A bit like the USA or Switzerland.

The state.

The state:

Each canton would have it's own laws, courts and parliament and each town and community with a Town Meeting (like in New England, USA or in some Swiss cantons). As such it will become a really decentralized and very democratic confederation.
For the peoples of the Netherlands one would see a real decentralization and respect for the rights of the individual cantons and most certainly the various communities (villages and towns). The cantons will use their own dialects in meetings and in their own laws. A Dutch translation will only need to be present during cases in which someone doesn't speak the local dialect or language.
Running the day to day affairs will be left to the individual cantons - and communities according to their own wishes. The central government in The Hague will only deal with Education and Health Care ( there will be federal vouchers and a Federal Dutch NHS), foreign policies, the environment (for the first 20 years) and the armed forces.
Since the name "province" to describe the individual member states would remind people of the centralization and the monarchy the new word would be "state" or "canton".


Those that will be kicked out:

All western and non-western immigrants should be reviewed.. most non-western immigrants will see their citizenships revoked and will be deported to their native lands. The westerners, Germanic or not.. will be tested for diseases, records everything. If they are safe- they can stay and slowly fuse into our society-like our brothers. The Islamic religion will be banned. Communist and socialist parties with a Marxist and multiculturalist agenda will be banned and their leaders will see their citizenships revoked and they can pick a non-western country for exile. The Royal Family ? Send into exile and their properties in the Netherlands will be handed over to the Dutch people and perhaps privatized. The Royal Palace in Amsterdam will be handed over to the City of Amsterdam as their City Hall.

Welfare:

It will be the job of the individual cantons to generate a welfare state by means of first creating jobs so that the people won't need welfare. It could be arranged that Flanders and Holland will transfer some excess wealth to the other cantons. Of course decentralization would generate enough jobs in the various cantons. It will be up to the various cantons to decide on labor issues. In Federal Law flexicurity will be implemented. So the state can hire and sack employees without paying them compensation (so no more Golden handshakes or bonuses) but they would have to pay for their re-education and give them allowances until they have found a new job.


Education and Health Care:

Education will be left to the individual cantons and one would be allowed to create private schools and universities as long as they comply with the law of their cantons. Federal vouchers will be given though so parents can send their children to other cantons for education.
The health care system will be nationalized and put under a federal scheme- a kind of NHS. Based on the Cuban system rather then the British.


The Hague as Federal Capital.

The Hague will still be the Federal Capital in the same sense as Bern is it in Switzerland or Washington D.C in the U.S.A. Whether The Hague will be seperated from Holland and it's capital moved to another city should be debated in the parliaments of a re-united Holland and in the Federal Parliament- and should be decided by a referendum in The Hague and Holland- before this will happen The Hague will be officially declared a city (it has been done before by King Louis Napoleon in 1806 and confirmed by his brother Emperor Napoleon in 1810 but it's city rights have been revoked by William I in act of revenge).
It could well be possible that The Hague will be an independent Capital-Region or Capital Canton, without Federal taxation and Federal representation (no taxation without representation means no taxation and no representation). The Hague will effectively rule itself but will de facto be part of the Dutch Republic. Only a Federal Chancellery, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of Domestic Affairs and Defense will remain in the Hague. All the other (reduced) institutions will be spread across the country because modern communication makes it possible to decentralize affairs.
The Hague will of course remain the seat of international agencies and companies (even more attractive because of a lower tax rate) and will possible become one of the wealthiest city's per capita in Europe. (A bit like Geneva). Since The Hague is the Federal Capital and internationally so important it should be the showcase of our country: ugly, dilapidated boroughs will be either restored to their former glory or blown up and some of the ugly industrial zones (those that know the city: Laakhaven, Binckhorst) will house the remaining ministries and federal institutions and will become green, eco-friendly and modern, pedestrianized showcases of Dutch urban planning. The old canals within the city should be preserved, cleaned and restored to their former glory and public transport should disappear underground (at least in the older and more densely populated parts of the city) . Leaving more room for pedestrianized streets and canals. The Beatrixkwartier- and the older areas of the inner city that were bombed in '45- that is now being turned into a commercial area should be restored as the Jugendstil-part of The Hague that it was before the 1945 air raid and the commercial activities should be moved to the area that is now around Laakhaven (turning the old dilapidated area it into a project similar to the London Docklands).

It may be strange that I write a lot about a certain city but I believe that a Federal Capital is a part of the country that should be seen as the showcase and since decentralization will bring a lot of changes I describe it.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w173/Doge_of_Venice/Amsterdamse_Veerkade.jpg
Less like this....


http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w173/Doge_of_Venice/Bierkade.jpg
More like this...


The Environment.

The Federal Government will have to set the good example.

I believe that it will be necessary to take a pro-active stance when it comes to the environment. I think that this will have to a national effort: we will have to come to 80 percent renewable energy (and 20 % nuclear) by the year 2030. And the Federal Government should take the lead by moving their ministries to buildings that have been designed to have a zero carbon footprint and ministers will be expected to use public transport and where possible the bike or drive in cleaner cars. The government should also set an example on a local level by speaking to the local population and government of The Hague (where parliament is housed) about creating more parks and opening up canals and tearing down some of the older neighborhoods that have a poor quality of life attached to it- in their place should come modern housing and commercial districts with canals, parks and affordable good quality housing- according to the principles of New Urbanism. Where one sheep goes- more will follow..



The role of taxes and subsidies- and the energy policy:

It will be necessary to subsidize solar and wind energy and put solar panels on as many roofs as possible and create large wind farms on the North Sea- like the Danish have done. I also believe in the construction of two nuclear power plants: both in Borsele, Zealand (the security system should be adopted from the Swedish and Finnish)
I think that all excises and VAT on cleaner cars should be scrapped while taxes on polluting cars should be increased: the revenue should be spend on fuel research and the improvement of public transport.

Overpopulation

I believe that our country is hopelessly overpopulated and thus the population should be halved: by encouraging migration to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina and Brazil- the ideal population of this country should be roughly between 8 and 9.5 million. The local governments and perhaps the national government should use the money now used for development aid to educate those that wish to leave and provide them with loans that they can use to establish businesses at their preferred destination so they won't become dependent on their new government.

Infrastructure and land-use.

It will be vital for our country to sacrifice some areas under sea-level like the Alexanderpolder near Rotterdam, the Haarlemmermeerpolder, the Purmer and the Schermer and perhaps some areas in Lower Groningen, Flevoland and Lower Friesland and West Brabant that should be converted into storage areas of excess water and full time lakes- while the country should work towards opening up old canals and the creation of new modern polders in the coastal areas of Holland that will house new villages and modern agriculture. In addition I believe construction of two new national airports (since what used to be Schiphol will be submerged when the Haarlemmerpolder will be sacrificed) will be needed- that will be connected to Amsterdam by monorail: one on an (to create) island before the coast near IJmuiden (like the Maasvlakte) and one in the IJsselmeer. I still believe that a reduced Markerwaardplan should be carried out- it will house agriculture, windmills and a new national airport.



Transportation

Rail transport

The entire Dutch railway system should be re-nationalized for a brief moment so things can be put in order again. After that the Nederlandse Spoorwegen (Dutch Railways) will see it's shares divided between the individual cantons (60%), the federal government (for a period of 50 years- 10%) and the free market (30%)- but no shares may be sold to foreigners or foreign companies. The entire network will be upgraded to the latest safety features and electrified with a overhead wire system based on the German voltage. Then the Nederlandse Spoorwegen will only keep the main lines open and privatize the rest- selling it off on the free market (only Dutch companies may participate). Further expansion will have to take place: in particular by private investment in monorails between The Hague and the north of the country- and possibly Hamburg, high-speed connections between France, Germany and the Netherlands, and further expansion of commuter rail and two monorails leading from Amsterdam to new international airports. Apart from that it will be necessary to break-up monopolistic companies like Connexion and leave competition to the free market.
Then you get a pretty secure system with a mixture of a state-owned company and private interest.
In the larger cities or in cities with a lack of space we could have railways roofed over and the available space put to use as parks, foundation for housing and streets- in the same way as it has been done to the railways in Brussels or to Rotterdam Blaak. The beautiful halls of the central stations can be used as an atrium and a public garden while steps and lifts would lead down to the real station underneath the old station. Thus using the available space twice.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w173/Doge_of_Venice/Atocha_main_hall01.jpg
Like here in the old hall of Atocha Station in Madrid, Spain



Road transport

Instead of paying an annual tax, maintenance on roads will be carried out by levying tolls and selling (mandatory) vignettes, and a couple of new motorways will be either build or planned: (I'll provide road numbers for the Dutch amongst us) the A4 (that should have been build some 30 years ago), A6-A9 (it will have to be constructed using a tunnel underneath the Naardermeer, so the natural reserve can be protected), the expansion of the A73 (from Limburg via Nijmegen and east of Arnhem, through Twente and Drenthe to Groningen), and a new motorway that would lead across the Delta Works, from Belgium, Zeeuws Vlaanderen to Hoek of Holland and The Hague. When the population would really drop some additional motorways can be decommissioned and turned into a cantonal trunk road or a 2+1 road - and in The Hague a Congestion Charge (based on the system now in use in Stockholm) will be introduced (if the various cantons decide to do the same thing it will be up to them- Amsterdam and Rotterdam would be fine candidates) for any car or motorized vehicle (apart from emergency services, occupants of that area and the Corps Diplomatique) entering the old towns- entering the old town will have to be made avoidable by building tunnels and underground beltways around the old towns.
Because of light pollution the amount of street lighting along motorways and trunk roads will be lowered and replaced with "cats eyes"and in urban areas we should try to have motorways "roofed over" and covered with housing, streets and green spaces. And every main city should receive incentive parking schemes so transport by car into the densely populated city can be minimized.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w173/Doge_of_Venice/catseyes.jpg
"cat's eyes"



When more comes to heart I will add it in this thread and in the end I will also write an addendum where I explain which views may have changed over time.

SwordoftheVistula
03-08-2009, 01:32 PM
I'll try to follow your pattern.

General theme: All policy decisions will be as decentralized as possible, at the local or at most state level, except for the powers granted to the federal government by our Constitution. Military/foreign/immigration policy at the federal level, also largely the creation of money.

At the state level, the only laws in place should be against those behaviors which directly, negatively effect others. Laws against murder, rape, assault, theft, and vandalism.

Certain localities may want to enact other laws related to that community, and operate things like parks and schools.


Those that will be kicked out:

First of all-stop letting people in! There will be a fence/wall at the border and armed guards who can shoot on site like sensible countries have. Foreign students can still be accepted, but will have to register and be subject to monitoring, and will be expelled if they violate the terms of their stay. Only people of 100% northern European ancestry (perhaps expanded to those of 100% European ancestry) will be allowed in, and they should be allowed in without problems and hassle if they do not have a criminal record (for real crimes, not 'advocating racism' or some such nonsense).

Those who will be kicked out, in order of feasibility.

Illegal aliens. I don't see what is so hard here, they are breaking the law by being in the country, the first order of business when encountering them is to put a stop to this law-breaking action by removing them from the country.

Any immigrant who commits a crime. People born here have a right to live here, immigrants don't. Also, if we have any welfare system, immigrants will not have a right to this.

Immigrants generally.

2nd/3rd generation immigrants, especially those in the families of 1st generation immigrants. No more 'anchor babies'!

Anyone not of 100% European ancestry.

Welfare:

None! People can donate through private charities if they wish.

Perhaps some allowances for certain limited/temporary programs such as unemployment, or bare bones subsistence programs like food stamps.

One thing must be absolutely certain: no local/regional 'cost of living' adjustments for welfare payments! There will be one federally set level. There is no reason for welfare recipients to be living in high-cost areas like New York City and Boston and taking up room from people who need to work in these commercial centers. No reason whatsoever for a family on welfare to be living in a housing unit in Manhattan which would cost thousands of dollars on the open market, when they could live in Mississippi or some such place for $200/month rent. Those living on welfare will have to live in the places with the lowest cost of living. If they have to live at a cost to the rest of society, the least they can do is not to live in a high cost area.


Education and Health Care:

Any form of public education will be funded at the local level, possibly the state level for post-secondary education. Home schooling will be legal and encouraged.

Health care should remain a private industry.


The Environment:

Private ownership of land and water resources will be encouraged. If you own a piece of land or a river, you're not going to let some idiot dump crap in it, at least not without paying a steep price. This will create the best balance between human/industrial needs and the environment.

Concerns regarding air pollution and such are best resolved through the court system rather than regulatory schemes, if someone causes you a specific harm by pollution then you can sue them.

Population:

Quality over quantity!

Abortion will be legal and provide free of charge to anyone who wants one. Perhaps even mandatory in some cases.

Any benefits to parents/children should be directed towards those at the top instead of those at the bottom. A couple proposals:

If the income tax remains a source of governmental funding, then allow a large deduction (say, $25k/yr per child) but no other support. Thus, a single parent making $20k/year working at McDonalds would have no incentive to have more children beyond the first, but an engineer making $100k/year would be able to avoid paying income tax by having 4 children.

Also, if the government continues to provide loans to finance education, these could be written off in a similar fashion as home loans were in Germany in the 1930s, write off 1/4 of the loan for each child.


Infrastructure and land-use.

Possibly build and maintain infrastructure such as airports and power lines, and then open them to all service providers who will compete on the open market for customers.


Transportation:

Rail transport:

I can see a possible governmental role towards maintaining rail lines, but those who actually run the trains should be private companies. If AmTrak (our state railway) were privatized and forced to compete on the open market, they would have to lower fares. Local areas can create local subways, trolleys, and rail systems if they so desire.

One thought, if there are any state supported transit systems, they should be forced to stay in operation at least as late as the bar closing time, so as to keep these drunks off the roads.





Road transport:

Should be as local as possible. Roads on Hawaii and purely local roads such as the 'Long Island Expressway' should not be receiving federal funds.

Roads should be funded by a gas tax as a 'usage tax', since this will encourage conservation of gas/oil (and less pollution). The satellite tracking devices and millage charges are too intrusive to privacy, and do not offer any environmental incentive.

Toll collection schemes tend to spend a large portion of the money, often more than half, on collection efforts, including both administrative and hiring all the toll collectors. Additionally, it is a nuisance and detrimental to the environment to force drivers to idle in line waiting to get through the toll booth. If there are any tolls, people should be encouraged to get electronic transponders (Fastlane, EZ pass, etc) to save on the cost of hiring toll collectors. No more than one booth open for cash payments. If you don't like waiting, get a transponder. Bridges & tunnels could even be left to private entrepreneurs to construct, if they are going to be gaining tolls from them.

In general, transportation between states should be negotiated by the states involved rather than run by the feds. A highway from Cleveland to Chicago can be organized by Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois rather than being a federally funded highway. The New York/New Jersey Port Authority is the model to follow here.

The Lawspeaker
03-27-2009, 11:10 AM
Addendum:


Healthcare
Rather then developing a NHS-styled healthcare system we should look towards adopting the Swiss system and improving it to suit our conventions.
Coverage by a (income based) health insurance will be mandatory for all citizens and foreign employees living in the Netherlands. All non-Dutch temporarily living in the Netherlands (like foreign civil servants, members of permanent missions and those working for foreign companies as well as their families) are exempted from joining a Dutch health insurance scheme and may join one of their own or stay with their present scheme but they may join a Dutch one as well after having lived in the country for 3 consecutive months.
The system would be a mixture of private and public insurance schemes:


private healthcare (for instance for visits to a dentist or general practitioner)



subsidized private (subsidized by the individual cantons- like home care services for the elderly, for those enduring difficult pregnancies, after birth, for the handicapped and the infirm etc)



public (by federal or provincial funding- for instance for life-threatening illnesses like cancer or HIV-AIDS or for difficult operations or transplants to be conducted in a federal university hospital ("academisch ziekenhuis") from which each canton should have one)

All present public hospitals will remain in the hands of the community by putting them under local and cantonal authority although private or church-based clinics and hospitals will be tolerated (they will not receive funding) but will be linked to private foundations, insurances or the church.


Education
The cantons and the local communities will receive a blank cheque when it comes to education. The Federal Government will only form up a small regulatory body. In essence it will mean that all public schools will be remain under public control but that schools with a religious background will see it's spending cut and will be placed under the church again as a private school. Although each canton or community may decide the extend of it for itself (since large parts of the country are still either protestant or catholic- in particular in the large Bible Belt.)

Private investment will be allowed in school and licensed teachers may open us private schools as they like- which will not be funded by the government but wholly by private investment.
Still the cantons and communities- as well as private investors will be asked to give schools maximum attention and funding as they will educate the future workforce. And each province will at least have one public university- all the others may be private. Each province will have to decide whether homeschooling is feasible- it would be advisable that homeschooling would be allowed when the parents (at least) follow the official curriculum. The rest will be up to them.
Special schools for the handicapped will remain part of the public education system but those following different teaching methods (like the Montissori-method) will become private schools although public education should remain open for finding new ways of education children and adults.

(I will write more about education when I have some more time)


On Socialism/Marxism
Rather then banning Socialist and Marxist parties it would be more prudent to condone them as long as they don't preach multiculturalism or partake in any actions that might harm the country now or in the future. The courts (cantonal or federal) will decide whether this is the case and whether they will be banned or condoned and allowed to participate in elections.

Barreldriver
03-27-2009, 12:49 PM
@SwordoftheVistula, in regards to this statement:



"Only people of 100% northern European ancestry (perhaps expanded to those of 100% European ancestry) will be allowed in, and they should be allowed in without problems and hassle if they do not have a criminal record (for real crimes, not 'advocating racism' or some such nonsense)."


Are you saying no more immigrants unless they are of this stock? Or are you saying deport anyone who is not of this stock.

I ask because there are many Western and Central European families that have been in the United States since the Colonial Era and have an equal contribution to the creation of the United States as the Anglos, why should these families of Western and Central European stock be stripped of their birthright? It was not the Anglos alone that forged the U.S., the French, Spanish, and Germans had their fair share. The late commers to the U.S. actually seem to be more from the extremem Northern and Southern hemisphere i.e. American's of Scandinavian and Southern European ancestry tended to arrive much later than those of Insular, Western, or Central European ancestry, so why would the late coming "Nords" get priority over the native Colonial castes that originated in Western, Northwestern, and Central Europe?

Æmeric
03-27-2009, 03:09 PM
I believe that our country is hopelessly overpopulated and thus the population should be halved: by encouraging migration to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina and Brazil- the ideal population of this country should be roughly between 8 and 9.5 million. The local governments and perhaps the national government should use the money now used for development aid to educate those that wish to leave and provide them with loans that they can use to establish businesses at their preferred destination so they won't become dependent on their new government.


A significant part of the population of the Netherlands is of recent immigrant origins from the periphery of the Caucasian world. We don't want them. And many Dutch are actually Euro-Malay hybrids, a reminder of the Dutch Colonial Empire. A quick look at Dutch celebrities show this;


http://centerholdsit.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/4899914.jpg

Johnny Heitinga, one of several Dutch football stars with Indonesian ancestry.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/JesseHutaGalungDutchOpenTennis.jpg
Dutch tennis player Jesse Huta Galung. I can't believe a name like that is Dutch.

http://image.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/VanHalen.jpg

We already have the Van Halen brothers.

http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Mark_Paul_Gosselaar%20-%208%20-%20NYPD_Blue.jpg

And Mark Paul Gosselaar.


Granted, Gosselaar doesn't really look dodgy nor Huta Galung except for the obviously Eastern surname & both could 'pass' unless being classified by a really good anthropologist like Suut or Agrippa. I would guess both are 1/4 or less Malay. But we have enough problems with miscegenation in recent years in the US, no point in taking someone elses problems.

Question: Just how many Dutch have Indonesian ancestry, at least 1/8 or 1/16?

The Lawspeaker
03-27-2009, 03:12 PM
A significant part of the population of the Netherlands is of recent immigrant origins from the periphery of the Caucasian world. We don't want them. And many Dutch are actually Euro-Malay hybrids, a reminder of the Dutch Colonial Empire. A quick look at Dutch celebrities show this;
Well.. as I said- the foreigners will have to leave before the Dutch will move abroad en masse.



Question: Just how many Dutch have Indonesian ancestry, at least 1/8 or 1/16?
I am not sure. A quick look on wiki says around 300.000


Dutch tennis player Jesse Huta Galung. I can't believe a name like that is Dutch.
Doesn't sound Dutch to me either.. but then again: we have a lot of people with French or German sounding surnames as well. We were a country of immigration during the 1600's.

The Lawspeaker
04-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Defense

Defense will of course remain a part of the Federal Government and should, given the dangerous world we live in now, receive more then adequate funding and the focus should be placed on restructuring the Armed Forces into a more modern unified command structure based on the Belgian model (contrary to tradition but cheaper and perhaps easier to run):



Land Component, or the Army;
Air Component, or the Air Force;
Naval Component, or the Navy,
Medical Component.

The emphasis should be placed on the Naval Component since the Navy always was the focus of the Dutch Armed Forces during the days of the Republic and even though we should pursue a policy of neutrality our merchant shipping needs to be protected as pirates attack indiscriminately (the recent situation in Somalia is a clear example of this).
As such the funding allocated to the Armed Forces should reflect this and the Netherlands should look away from (UN/NATO) "peacekeeping-missions" and withdraw it's troops and the American Joint Strike Fighter Program and ask for the reimbursement of the $800 million the country already invested in this overtly costly and senseless project and instead sign for a deal with it's cheaper Swedish competitor and buy the Saab JAS39 Gripen instead.

The majority of the defense budget should (as I said before) be spend on the Naval Component and should be spend a modernization- and enlargement plan: 2/3 destroyers, 5 LCF-class frigates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_class_frigate), 5 M-class frigates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Doorman_class_frigate),2 more auxiliary ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Amsterdam_%28A836%29) and some 9 attack submarines. Cutbacks on naval programs will also take place in the old fashioned command structure (which should be modernized) and the number of bases (the navel base at Willemstad and the Marines' barracks in Savaneta on the Netherlands Antilles should be closed down as part of the completion of our decolonization process ), the naval support bases in Amsterdam and Texel should also be closed. The Royal Dutch Naval College and the Royal Netherlands Military Academy should be fused into a new unified service academy elsewhere- thus cutting costs. All other parts of the modernization of the Navy as decided in the present Fleet Plan 2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy) as well as the Theater Ballistic Missile Defense- project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy) should also be carried out. The Dutch Coast Guard will however become part of the Dutch customs service rather then remain independent or become part of the Navy.

It will however be deemed important that the Navy will work in close conjunction with other powers currently present in the Indian Ocean region as to achieve maximum superiority over the Somali Pirates and any other threats to Dutch interests.
For ceremonial reasons the ship prefix HNLMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His/Her_Netherlands_Majesty%27s_Ship) should be exchanged for LS or LSO ('s Lands Schip, 's Lands Schip van Oorlog) which was the unofficial ship prefix during the days of the old Republic (without abbreviation). For political and ceremonial reasons a training (sailing) ship should be bought or preferably build by a Dutch shipbuilder- and show the face of our navy and proud naval tradition to the world at events like Sail Amsterdam.
The Federal Government should also seek to place most of or all her orders for new ships here in the Netherlands so the companies profiting from this (for them) unique opportunity will be Dutch.

For all military components a National Service will be reintroduced- and it will be compulsory for all 21-year olds to serve in the military for a period of 10 months (or face 18 months of community service).
The Air Component (other then the Gripen) will face no changes but the Land Component will see a mayor overhaul as well with the re-introduction of the National Service and will change into a unique institute that is somewhere between a militia and a regular army (as based on the Swiss model):



Since gun laws will be dropped (for all citizens on at least a federal level) a Dutch soldier will be able to take his service weapons home but will have to store them in a special cache (along with a magazine of 20 bullets)
A soldier (of any rank or component) will have the right to, in case of imminent danger, commandeer any vehicle to take him to a base. Denying him (or her) this service will be severely fined.
The Army cannot be deployed outside EU-territory.
A Chief of the Armed Forces will have to be elected for a period of 10 years by (Federal) Parliament.

Bloodeagle
04-15-2009, 07:01 PM
I would like to see a decentralization of the United States government.
With a focus on bio regionalism and ethno regionalism.

The Magistrate
09-01-2009, 09:27 PM
I would like to see, personally, more integration of the Hispanic population into US culture. While i can understand their race wishing to retain home roots and remain independent, and understand most of their reasons for coming here, they will eventually assimilate into the greater population.

Also, i believe in a democratically elected socialist government. I personally would like to see a government that focuses more on the people, all of them, not business primarily. I want to see an equal society, where every man TRULY earns his living.

The Lawspeaker
09-01-2009, 09:46 PM
The role of taxes and subsidies- and the energy policy:

It will be necessary to subsidize solar and wind energy and put solar panels on as many roofs as possible and create large wind farms on the North Sea- like the Danish have done. I also believe in the construction of two nuclear power plants: both in Borsele, Zealand (the security system should be adopted from the Swedish and Finnish)
I think that all excises and VAT on cleaner cars should be scrapped while taxes on polluting cars should be increased: the revenue should be spend on fuel research and the improvement of public transport.

Addendum

I still believe in the ideas of subsidizing solar and wind energy for political reasons. It will make us less depending on imported fossil fuels and also improve our environment.
I think that a federal investment scheme should cover the first 25 years and finance the development of said alternative energy sources. After that private interest should take over (no non-Dutch may participate) and financing the construction of solar and wind parks should be left to individual companies and to the people themselves who can freely place solar panels on their roofs.

New natural gas sources have been found in the North Sea and in other parts of the Netherlands but it may take a couple of years before the technology exists to mine it. I think that private investment should be allowed to cash in on it and mine natural gas for domestic use and export. It's relatively clean and the Dutch companies can make a sound amount of money from it.
When it comes to taxation in general I do believe that VAT and all excises should be scrapped over a period of 10 years and the Federal Government will not have the right to tax the people- instead the Federal Government's services will be paid for by the annual contribution by the provinces and where possible the provinces will take over the services as well. Thus minimizing the size of the government.

I will write more about this soon.




Road transport

Instead of paying an annual tax, maintenance on roads will be carried out by levying tolls and selling (mandatory) vignettes, and a couple of new motorways will be either build or planned: (I'll provide road numbers for the Dutch amongst us) the A4 (that should have been build some 30 years ago), A6-A9 (it will have to be constructed using a tunnel underneath the Naardermeer, so the natural reserve can be protected), the expansion of the A73 (from Limburg via Nijmegen and east of Arnhem, through Twente and Drenthe to Groningen), and a new motorway that would lead across the Delta Works, from Belgium, Zeeuws Vlaanderen to Hoek of Holland and The Hague. When the population would really drop some additional motorways can be decommissioned and turned into a cantonal trunk road or a 2+1 road - and in The Hague a Congestion Charge (based on the system now in use in Stockholm) will be introduced (if the various cantons decide to do the same thing it will be up to them- Amsterdam and Rotterdam would be fine candidates) for any car or motorized vehicle (apart from emergency services, occupants of that area and the Corps Diplomatique) entering the old towns- entering the old town will have to be made avoidable by building tunnels and underground beltways around the old towns.
Because of light pollution the amount of street lighting along motorways and trunk roads will be lowered and replaced with "cats eyes"and in urban areas we should try to have motorways "roofed over" and covered with housing, streets and green spaces. And every main city should receive incentive parking schemes so transport by car into the densely populated city can be minimized.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w173/Doge_of_Venice/catseyes.jpg
"cat's eyes"





Addendum

It would perhaps be interesting to let Dutch companies participate in a toll scheme test. That means that it should be made possible to "privatize" stretches of motorway as a 5 year test. No companies with any ties to mayor Dutch or foreign banks may participate.
It could also be interesting to give companies that build roads and motorways the right to levy tolls for a period of 25 years so they can make back their investments. This has already been done in France and in the Westerscheldetunnel in Zeeland and proves to be no problem.

I will write more about this soon.

The Magistrate
09-01-2009, 09:49 PM
You dirty bourgeois.

The Lawspeaker
09-01-2009, 09:54 PM
You dirty bourgeois.

Haha:wink Well.We have seen here that the free market is definitely more efficient then state run economies.
The main thing is that one needs to make sure that:



There needs to be democratic control on the free market.
There should be strong anti-trust laws and vigorous democratic control on it's implementation.
It should be made sure that certain companies (those with, for instance, ties to banks with a poor reputation, banks with ties to the system banks of the American Federal Reserve and the Rothschilds) cannot participate.
It's all about transparency and scale. Large scale projects is something to avoid. Keeping the scale small is something to encourage.

Brännvin
09-01-2009, 10:06 PM
A significant part of the population of the Netherlands is of recent immigrant origins from the periphery of the Caucasian world. We don't want them

This coming from an American, it is one of the most hypocritical posts I've read here, if not, the most hypocritical post ever.

Germanicus
09-01-2009, 10:13 PM
This is a great thread.....it is indeed thought provoking, some very good ideas, some which in the future our European goverments must surely adopt, the immigrant surge on our countries is not stop.
Back in 1963 i was 5 years old, i remember seeing no blacks, no Asians, no Asylum seekers, and more importantly, everyone knew everyone in their community.
A return to our former culture of existence must return, we cannot endure this madness?

The Lawspeaker
09-01-2009, 10:35 PM
On The Guild System, cooperatives and direct democracy.

It has become evident that the current form of the free market economy has ceased to work (to put it mildly) and perhaps it is time for a dual system. Indeed a kind of socialism- albeit one by and for the people and without the government's involvement. And still a kind of free market for those companies not affected. But one without the corrupt big banks.

Cantonal and local governments should make special legal provisions for people that work in the same business to set up cooperatives or guilds together that set rules and work together to protect each other and themselves from dishonest competition and the effect of large-scaled businesses. The effects of industrial farming and big industry on for instance our food products and the existence of local products have been disastrous and it is time to turn the tide. And the moment is there to seize it.

I think that all towns should have their- let's say baker's guilds, butcher's guilds that will protect the small entrepreneur and traditional local products and crafts. Those guilds can also provide training and education for the children of their members and for newcomers. Depending on local legislation joining a guild could be compulsory or voluntary. And it should also be interesting to return to the medieval standards and ideas regarding the guilds and even go as far as to bring (for instance) bakers together in one street. The guilds should also serve to set up their own banks and spread their income between each other. A guild should get back it's old medieval guild hall- and in case it isn't there a new one should be build. The first floor can always be used to sell local products or for renting it out.

Likewise- farmers could choose to unite themselves in cooperatives to protect traditional crafts. Joining of course should be voluntary as competition for farmers is not so dangerous as it is for small entrepreneurs but levying high tariffs to protect domestic produce against foreign competitors might always work in our favor. Given the small size of our country it could be interesting to provide ideas for the farmers and to stimulate them to return to local products and more traditional agriculture. Focusing on their surroundings. It could also bring people back to the countryside when in towns and cities more allotment gardens can be made available so people can also start growing their own food and with a small number of inhabitants in the country more people could get access to bigger gardens thus raising self sufficiency.

And to give this a more political load:

Each village should get their own marke. A medieval term to denote a cooperative of farmers but now it could also be used to denote a village community council, consisting of all the people that gather once a month on a local green or in a church to set their local policies following the model of the American town meeting or the Swiss gemeindeversammlung. This could also be the time to settle disputes between members of the community.
Each citizen of the community will have a say in the town meeting, unless local law states otherwise. And after age 16 a boy or girl (after confirmation or civil confirmation) should be allowed to speak in the council but not be allowed to vote until he or she reaches full adulthood. But this should be determined by the local communities themselves as Federal Law should never be allowed to supersede local laws and customs.
This new system, partially borrowing from early medieval jurisprudence and politics, will replace the modern rural municipalities. In the smaller towns this system, combined with neighborhood committees, could also follow this pattern while in the cities referendums should be used to set out annual policies.

For the Dutch it would mean returning to old medieval names under a modern democratic banner. Take for example the medieval Landschap Drenthe. Now the Province of Drenthe- then the Canton of Drenthe. The canton consisted/ and should again consist of six dingspelen (ding- related to the Germanic word thing- for council). Each dingspel is formed up by kerspelen (local villages and communities each of which should get their own marke). The dingspelen will gather each four years in a bigger form of the marke and debate local issues (based on the Swiss landesgemeinde) and elect their etten (jury) to be send to the Etstoel (the medieval version of the Supreme Court/ annex parliament in Drenthe- but a modern version should only mean parliament because of the preservation of the trias politica) also elect a drost (steward) to function as the judge of the cantonal supreme court. The etten will elect a chairman from their own midst for the period that is required for one government term. And no national parties should be allowed to participate in local politics and it should be made illegal for local parties to align themselves (and vice versa) to national parties..
For a small canton like Drenthe there is only really need for a unicameral parliament and the elected drosten should get the power to check and strike down bills and laws from the Etstoel in case they are unconstitutional (in relation to the cantonal constitution, each canton should get it's own constitution, and in relation to the Federal Constitution) and go against the wishes of the population. They should even get the right to send home the Etstoel when the etten have been corrupted and requests to sack them have been send in by the majority of the dingspelen. A drost however cannot be a member of a political party (neither should a schout) in order to shut out party politics and nepotism.

Each dingspel should also elect it's sheriff- the schout. In the same manner as is done in the U.S.


Each canton could use it's own names and system but in essence it should be the idea to align the various political systems in the various canton as much as possible to each other. But the names and the number communities will always be different- in accordance to local dialect, ideas and customs.

Æmeric
09-01-2009, 11:34 PM
This coming from an American, it is one of the most hypocritical posts I've read here, if not, the most hypocritical post ever.

It's the truth. What percentage of the population of the Netherlands is of Asian, North African, Middle Eastern or sub-Saharan African origins? 15%? And Sweden has an immigrant population (counting the Sweden born children of immigrants) of nearly 20%. Granted, many of the immigrants in Sweden are Finnish but what percentage are African, Asian or Middle Eastern. And they are recent immigrants. Just because someone has a Swedish passport that doesn't mean his grandparents were Swedish, they might very well have been Lebanese. If there wasn't an immigrant problem in Europe these boards wouldn't exist.

The Lawspeaker
09-01-2009, 11:36 PM
It's the truth. What percentage of the population of the Netherlands is of Asian, North African, Middle Eastern or sub-Saharan African origins? 15%? And Sweden has an immigrant population (counting the Sweden born children of immigrants) of nearly 20%. Granted, many of the immigrants in Sweden are Finnish but what percentage are African, Asian or Middle Eastern. And they are recent immigrants. Just because someone has a Swedish passport that doesn't mean his grandparents were Swedish, they might very well have been Lebanese. If there wasn't an immigrant problem in Europe these boards wouldn't exist.
... Which should be dramatically reduced if we kicked them out.... What remains are some "foreign" people that whose ancestors were colonial administrators in the Indies.
I didn't say that we should dump our emigrants in the U.S.A. No- they should be dumped on the very places they had left. What will be coming to the U.S are native Dutch. Some perhaps with some minor foreign admixture which we actually don't think about once here, let alone twice. The majority of the people you showed in those pictures would be considered fully Dutch by 99.9 percent of all Dutchmen.

That's a result of having a colonial empire where people served and worked in the colonies and sometimes married locals or married people whose ancestors had married locals.

Brännvin
09-01-2009, 11:37 PM
15%? And Sweden has an immigrant population (counting the Sweden born children of immigrants) of nearly 20%. Granted, many of the immigrants in Sweden are Finnish but what percentage are African, Asian or Middle Eastern.

LOL.. Are you mentally retard?

Brännvin
09-01-2009, 11:43 PM
Just because someone has a Swedish passport that doesn't mean his grandparents were Swedish, they might very well have been Lebanese. If there wasn't an immigrant problem in Europe these boards wouldn't exist.

Who said that I came to this board beacuse immigrant problem? If then, I am out! Bye, Bye!


FUCK AMERICA..GO MEXICO, GO!

Æmeric
09-02-2009, 12:11 AM
Afro-Swedes

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Carter+2009+Sundance+Portrait+Session+6Oz_JMetVyAl .jpg

Quincy Jones III


http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00284/Henrik_Larsson_284467b.gif

Henrik Larsson


http://images.newstatesman.com/articles/2006/945/945_p35.jpg
Neneh Cherry


http://diepresse.com/images/uploads/0/2/4/442404/salzburg-gustafsson20090108174816.jpg

Eddie Gustafsson


http://imgs.sthlmsfinest.com/imageGalleryImages/scaled/141581_729_488_1.jpg

Camilla Henemark


http://magicstatistics.com/wp-content/uploads/Nyamko_Sabuni.jpg

Nyamko Sabuni


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/FredrikReinfeldt.jpg

Fredrik Reinfeldt. Sweden had a prime minster of Negro descent before America had a black president.

Comte Arnau
09-02-2009, 03:11 AM
Well, to decide about most of these things, I guess ideally it should first be... independent. :)

Ariets
09-02-2009, 11:26 AM
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state would the minimum state of the minimum control that it has to have.

Cut role of the state up to:
a) legislations
b) external security (ie. army, but it could be based on the city-level of governing it)
c) internal security (ie. police, organised by the cities and being under of their control, prehaps with some inter-police, that would focus on criminals that do some things over some few regions).

Democracy is good for idiots, therefore we need a "dictator" or back to the good ol' monarchy.

As for welfere state: there's no need for anything like that, people should not be forced to pay for some people just because some other people think its right, therefore "social-help" as you may call it would be funded by independent from state voluntary fundations. Ban welfere state!

As for health care: should be privatised on all levels.

As for education: let make it private on all levels, schools would

As for law: let make it as simpliest as its possible, we don't need all these state-regulations and other crap that goverment is feeding us.

Protection of the property, also "right" to do it - my home is my castle. Large privatisation, obviously privatise the streets too.:p

Free market economics, completly!

Completle freedom of speech, including insulting of the other people limited only to the truth.

As for church and similar things: all should be separated from the state and should be "feed" from their own money or the money of their followers only.

As for marriage: should be controled by the religions not by state. But some these religions could not accept marriage's of the people of some other religions or because of their genders and so on, et cetera.

As for abortion: should not be allowed if there's no special health reasons (of the mother or of the fetus), could be allowed if it be a result of rape of incest relation.

As for prisons etc.: criminals should be categorised to:
a) low class criminals like thiefs - they should be publicly whipped and relased.
b) middle class criminals - anything above lower ones, some bigger scale crimes - prisoned and working for themself - no work, no food.
c) high class criminals like murders, traitors or rapists: death penalty.
As you can see Im in favor of old school.

Legalise eg.:
a) all kind of drugs,
b) if someone wants to sell himself them its his buisness,
c) selling organs - from own choice
d) common gun-ownership
e) and all others based on the good ol' [I]Volenti non fit iniuria.

Decentralisation based on autonomous regions or counts et cetera. Taxation should be based only on first three points of minimum mentioned above and govern the local regions.


Post scriptum:

1) I could forget some things, for which I apoligize .:rolleyes:
2) At Barreldriver: yes, you're completly right about things mentioned by you. Notice also he would ban himself, isn't he just a German? Germany isn't nothern European country!:p
3) It's a shame for all of us, so-called libertarians that people like SwordOfVistula call themself a libertarians cause most of his statements are completly anti-libertarian. In some cause's he's even no diffrent than his socialist commrade Barack Obama (like eg. about the unemployment etc.). You're not libertarian at all, you can call yourself liberal at best.<o:p></o:p><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:24pt; height:24pt'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:24pt;height:24pt'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:24pt;height:24pt'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->

The Lawspeaker
01-17-2010, 03:35 AM
On civil rights:

I believe that the state at present is too powerful and is denying the citizenry more and more rights at the expense of newcomers. In a Republic this would be reversed. Perhaps a new constitution (a kind of treaty-like the Union of Utrecht) should be put before the electorate along with a Bill of Rights. When it would pass it would be the law of the land- along with the local constitutions and customs that would come in force that would technically supersede it but in the constitution it should be arranged that the law of the land should influence the other cantonal constitutions.

Since that it can be said that an armed man is a free man and a disarmed man a slave it would perhaps be a good thing to make sure that citizens would have the right to bear arms.

This should be arranged on local levels and cantonal levels. And for the Republic as a whole it would perhaps be a good idea to copy ideas from the United States and Swiss Constitutions and the Bill of Rights. As a matter of fact I believe that the Constitution of the United States should serve as a partial blueprint for the Constitution of the Republic and that it should be backed up by a Bill of Rights.

Local and Cantonal laws could borrow from these ideas if the local electorate would vote in favor.
All citizens should thus have the right to vote (over 25 in federal elections), the right (perhaps even the obligation) to bear arms, the freedom of press, the press of speech, of association, of religion, the freedom of "conscience" (that no one can force you take in a way that would compromise your conscience), Habeas Corpus etc etc.

There should be no laws regarding "discrimination"- if you feel insulted by what someone says and that's totally your problem. The freedoms of the land should not, under any circumstance other then perhaps during an actual war, be curtailed and most definitely not because someone would be "insulted".

SwordoftheVistula
01-22-2010, 06:34 AM
so-called libertarians that people like SwordOfVistula call themself a libertarians cause most of his statements are completly anti-libertarian. In some cause's he's even no diffrent than his socialist commrade Barack Obama (like eg. about the unemployment etc.). You're not libertarian at all, you can call yourself liberal at best

lol that makes no sense at all seeing as how you are the one who wants the government to ban abortion and force women to have children they don't want

Murphy
01-22-2010, 09:17 AM
Christian, United and Free.

I'll die a happy man then.

Regards,
The Papist.

The Lawspeaker
01-31-2010, 10:27 PM
On immigration, naturalization and citizenship.

I think that the Netherlands should completely overhaul it's immigration policy. When it comes to foreign labor it is perhaps a good idea to only hire people of related kin (West and North European- and overseas Europeans of Germanic descent- but preferably Afrikaners, Germans and Walloons) that can only stay here until the job is done and each year each permit is reviewed by a local referendum (in small communities). The Netherlands should only bring in a certain number of guest workers- preferably around 15.000. This doesn't include Germans, French, Walloons that are living in their own countries but who are working on our side of the border.

For those that would want to stay only marriage to a Dutch citizen should give him/her that option but it would not automatically quality them for citizenship. For those that would naturalize and become citizens a special law should still exclude them from the right to vote for national elections or to be elected.
The only exception will be made for people from the Dutch diaspora that speak Dutch as their native language and for Afrikaners (which should be granted citizenship after 5 years of living in the country)
For cantonal and local affairs each canton or community should decide for itself. First let's look at a sound definition of the Dutch nationality that should then come into existence:

A person is a Dutch citizen at birth if he or she is:


born in the Netherlands (or abroad on for instance a Dutch ship, in a Dutch airplane or a Dutch facility anywhere in the world)
born to a Dutch father or mother, if parents are married
born to a Dutch mother, if parents are not married
Where parents marry after birth and only the father is Dutch, the child acquires Dutch citizenship at that point.
The other parent will have to be of European descent


For children born outside the Netherlands it is possible to gain citizenship after being registered at a local Dutch consulate or embassy- if the other parent is also of European descent.
An adopted child can only become citizen if he/she is of full European descent.


Jus soli will and does not exist in the Netherlands, hence birth in the Netherlands in itself does not confer Dutch citizenship on the child.

A person of (overseas) European descent married to a Dutch citizen may apply for Dutch citizenship by facilitated naturalisation after living in Dutch for thirty years and having been married for at least ten years. One must show:

integration into the Dutch way of life;
familiarity with Dutch habits, customs and traditions - and be able to speak Dutch with fluency;
compliance with the Dutch rule of law;
no danger to the Netherlands' internal or external security.


Cantons and communities impose their own residence and other requirements, which may be additional to those imposed by the Netherlands.

Children from the person's previous relationships are NOT automatically given citizenship along with the partner.

Spouses acquiring Dutch citizenship by facilitated naturalization will acquire the citizenship of the community and canton of their Dutch spouse (after a referendum in the spouse's community and canton after a referendum if local law desires so). And receiving Dutch citizenship implies that one's other nationality is immediately revoked as holding dual-citizenship is not allowed.

Upon birth a child will become the citizen of the community and canton in which it was born - in case it was born abroad the father's community will provide the child's citizenship and when the father is not Dutch it will be the mother's community that will provide it. This form of citizenship will be for life (if so stated in local law) and cannot be renounced unless the bearer has moved to some other community and has been invited to become a citizen.

That means that even if the bearer is living in another province he would only be allowed to vote in his town/ canton of birth.

Tabiti
01-31-2010, 10:40 PM
Well, no minorities for the first time => Then better social services, especially education =>smarter people => smarter politics => no bad "western" or "eastern" influence.
Quite utopic.

nisse
01-31-2010, 10:48 PM
No government...and it should be isolated from the rest of the world by a giant super strong force field and EMP'ed every so often, so no pesky technology arises :cool:

Wulfhere
01-31-2010, 10:55 PM
From our website http://sovereignmercia.angelfire.com/

Manifesto for a Sovereign Mercia

I. Society

Mercia has a diverse and affluent economy comprising industry, technology, services and agriculture. The Mercian state shall provide its citizens with full healthcare and welfare provision, and free access to education with an equal opportunity to attend any Mercian university, including Oxford and Cambridge. Citizenship shall be an inalienable, hereditary right for all Mercians. Other persons may be granted non-voting resident status, but shall not be eligible for state benefits or free healthcare. Mercia shall be a secular state with absolute freedom of expression, conscience and religion (with the exception of any doctrine that promotes violence), and all citizens shall be encouraged to participate in the democratic process.

With a population comparable to that of the Netherlands (around 16 million), but an area similar in size to the Netherlands and Belgium combined, Mercia has abundant agricultural land and other natural resources such as coal – more than enough to feed its people and provide them with a modern, high standard of living. All land currently owned by the Norman-descended aristocracy shall be nationalised.

II. Youth

Mercia shall implement wide-ranging measures to ensure that no more generations are lost to violence and hopelessness. It shall be compulsory for all young Mercians aged between 11 and 25 to spend every weekend away from home at activity camps, where the emphasis shall be on team sports, physical exercise and character development. Those aged between 18 and 25 – an estimated 1.5 million – shall comprise the Mercia Defence Force (MDF), and shall receive full, intensive training. At 25 they shall be discharged and given the right to vote, and those most suited shall be commissioned as officers. The defence force shall safeguard the security of all Mercians, taking over the role of both the current armed forces and the police.

Instilled with a code of loyalty and honour through team sports and the proud uniform of Mercian royal blue, young people – for too long let down by modern society – shall become an unassailable force for good in the land, defending its people, keeping the peace and bringing justice to all. In this way no Mercian shall ever again feel alienated from, or be denied a stake in society.

III. Economy

Mercia shall have a free market economy with no restrictions on the generation of wealth. Council tax shall be abolished, and a single income tax shall be applied to all wage earners on a sliding scale, based on their ability to pay. The Mercian government shall actively support the creation of employment with subsidies to firms and businesses, though no citizen shall be forced to take an uncongenial job. It shall also support new technologies in all fields, including nuclear, in order to ensure Mercian self-sufficiency in energy and food production. The Mercian transport infrastructure shall likewise receive massive government investment – air, road, rail and canal. Subsidised public transport shall be made available in all areas.

Mercia was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, which has been fundamental to our modern way of life. The Mercian state shall implement policies to reverse the decline of recent years, with a massive injection of cash and manpower, creating wealth, prosperity and security. Decent jobs shall be made available to all Mercians, and the use of foreign, cheap labour outlawed.

IV. Currency

Upon the attainment of sovereignty Mercia shall withdraw from the European Union and retain the pound sterling as its currency – or if by then the pound has been abolished in favour of the euro, Mercia shall switch back to the pound at the same conversion rate. The Mercian pound sterling shall be divided into 20 shillings (s), and each shilling shall be divided into 12 pence (d). New Mercian coins shall be minted in denominations of 1d, 3d, 6d, 1s, 2s, 5s, 10s and £1, and notes shall be printed in denominations of £5, £10, £20, £50 and £100. The Mercian pound sterling shall be allowed to float freely against other currencies, and a policy of deflation shall be implemented, forcing it to gradually increase in value.

Ancient Mercia was so wealthy (see, for example, the Staffordshire Hoard) that it eventually aspired to equal status with Charlemagne’s empire in Europe. The pound sterling was introduced to Mercia by King Offa in the 790s in order to facilitate Continental trade, and was soon adopted by the other English kingdoms. An independent Mercia shall once again generate its own wealth for its own benefit.

V. Government

The Mercian head of state shall have the title King of Mercia (or Queen of Mercia, if female), and shall be elected for a seven-year term by all Mercian citizens. Elections shall take place in years divisible by seven on the Monday following the first Sunday after 4 September, and the term of office shall begin on the subsequent New Year’s Day. The King shall also be the head of government, and shall have unlimited executive authority during his term of office, subject only to impeachment. He may stand for subsequent terms without limit. If the King dies, resigns or is impeached, an Acting King shall be elected by the legislature to complete his term. The official residence of the King shall be Tamworth Castle, Staffordshire, seat of the ancient Mercian monarchy.

Although the current structure is Norman in origin, it was built on the site of the Mercian royal fortress. Founded by King Creoda in the 580s, this was the chief residence of the Mercian kings until sacked by the Danes in the 870s, whereupon the monarchy decamped to Gloucester. Tamworth is situated 14 miles north-east of Birmingham city centre, on the border of Staffordshire and Warwickshire.

VI. Legislature

The legislative assembly of Mercia shall be known as the Witan, comprising 222 Aldermen (or Alderwomen, if female) elected by the citizens of each shire, plus the King, who may attend its meetings but not vote. The total number of Aldermen shall remain fixed at 222, but the number allocated for each shire shall vary according to its citizen population. Elections to the Witan shall take place at the same time as that for the King, who shall choose his cabinet from amongst its members. The King may refuse to assent to any legislation passed by the Witan, though he may be impeached by it with a two-thirds majority plus one (149). The Witan shall have its primary meeting place at Birmingham Town Hall, though may meet elsewhere when appropriate.

As the largest city, centrally located and at the hub of the transport network, Birmingham shall be the capital of Mercia. All meetings of the Witan shall be open to the public. With a capacity of over one thousand, Birmingham Town Hall – once the home of Birmingham City Council but no longer used for that purpose – is ideally suited.

VII. Culture

Mercia has a rich cultural heritage stretching back many centuries. From the time of Beowulf, right up to the present day, Mercians have produced some of the finest and most memorable works of literature in the English language. Yet for too long the Mercian dialects have been relegated to provincial status by the variety of English spoken in London. For example, if the plays of William Shakespeare, the most famous Mercian writer of all time, are performed in his own local dialect (the ancestor of that of modern Birmingham), all his rhymes work perfectly. Upon the attainment of Mercian sovereignty the London dialect shall be eschewed in favour of local ones, and a new Mercian standard shall be created and taught in all schools.

Undoubtedly Mercia’s most brilliant son, it is impossible to overestimate the influence that William Shakespeare (1564–1616) has had on our language and culture. The very words we speak and phrases we use have been shaped by his writings, and his plays are still loved the world over. Through his mother, Mary Arden, he was a descendant of the ancient Mercian monarchy – though it is uncertain if he knew it.

VIII. Religion

All Mercian properties of the Church of England shall be handed over to a newly formed Order of Ancient Mercia (OAM). The male-dominated Anglican priestly hierarchy shall be replaced with a female order of Pagan priestesses with its own rites and observances, devised to reconcile the best of ancient Heathen practices with the demands and aspirations of a modern, sophisticated society. Each parish church, of which there are around 5000 in Mercia, shall have a priestess placed in charge. These changes, however, shall only affect what is already the state-owned Anglican Church. The order of priestesses – with a High Priestess based at Lichfield Cathedral – shall also take over the role of the judiciary, acting as judges in all courts of law.

Each element in the proposed uniform for the priestesses of the Order of Ancient Mercia carries symbolic meaning. Blue, yellow, white and black are the colours of Mercia. The six-rayed headdress represents the universal life-force, channelled and directed by the priestess through the crystalline cones attached to her hands. The priestesses shall take over the position currently occupied by the corrupt and discredited Anglican clergy, drawing on ancient Pagan practices and adapting them for modern society, incorporating the best aspects of all traditions. The Order of Ancient Mercia shall be a self-regulating, self-appointing corporation, choosing its members from the ranks of the Mercia Defence Force at the age of 25.

IX. Symbols

The Cross of St. Alban, a yellow/gold saltire (diagonal cross) on a royal blue field, has represented Mercia heraldically since the 13th century. It is derived from the arms of the Abbey of St. Alban, founded by King Offa of Mercia in the 8th century. The white/silver double-headed eagle surmounted by a three-pronged Saxon crown has been used by various units of the British Army to represent Mercia since the 1950s. It is derived from a device of Leofric, Earl of Mercia in the 11th century. In a 2009 poll Mercians chose as their national anthem Tomorrow Belongs to Me (© 1966 John Kander & Fred Ebb), performed here on YouTube by Saga, the Swedish folk singer. Note also the Tolkien imagery used in the clip.

The flag favoured by Sovereign Mercia combines the Cross of St. Alban and the Eagle of Leofric into a single design. This shall not prevent either being used separately as needed, or the use of any other emblem. Mercian colours are royal blue (darker variant), yellow (gold), white (silver) and black.

X. History

The Kingdom of Mercia was founded around AD 527 by King Icel, who led his people, the Angles, across the North Sea to Britain. From small beginnings along the River Trent, Mercia – Mierce in Old English, meaning ‘march’ – gradually expanded to include the whole of the Midlands and further afield, eventually controlling even London. Converted to Christianity in 655, for the next two hundred years it was the most powerful English kingdom, reaching its apogee under King Offa (reigned 757–796). Mercia was conquered by the Danes in 874, but survived in reduced form until 918, when it was annexed by Wessex. For further reading, please see the articles Mercia and List of monarchs of Mercia.

The peoples of the English Midlands are listed in a document known as the Tribal Hidage. Until the annexation of the Middle Saxons and London in the 8th century, all Mercian folk-groups were Angles. In addition, Celts survived in the western fringes, and many Danes settled in eastern Mercia in the late 9th century, though both groups became assimilated. Sovereign Mercia defines as Mercian those whose ancestry can be, or in the absence of records can be presumed to be, traced back to this period – i.e. when Mercia was an independent nation-state.

XI. Traditions

Mercia retains many ancient folk customs, the origins of which are lost in the mists of time. Some of these are world famous, such as the Cooper’s Hill Cheese Rolling held each May in Gloucestershire, and the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance held each September in Staffordshire. The latter in particular is thought to date back to pre-Christian times and may well have been connected with the Mercian monarchy, based in nearby Tamworth. Sovereign Mercia holds its annual conference at Abbots Bromley on Horn Dance day, which falls on the Monday following the first Sunday after 4 September, and it is proposed that the elections for the office of King (or Queen) of Mercia shall also be held on this auspicious date, once every seven years.

One of the most extraordinary Pagan survivals in Europe, the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance has been performed by members of the same family since the early Middle Ages. In origin it may have been a sympathetic magic ritual to ensure a successful hunt, and formerly took place at the winter solstice. Today, the horn dance is an occasion of great celebration for the village, attracting visitors from far and wide.

XII. Mythology

All nations require their own mythology, a common set of stories and motifs to shape their identity. In the case of Mercia this is provided by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, whose writings draw on a deep well of ancient lore and legend. Tolkien was always very proud of his own Mercian heritage, and in terms of literary influence is probably only surpassed by Shakespeare himself. The Tolkien Legendarium is etched into the very landscape and language of Mercia. The Shire, with its villages, fields and woods, is Mercia itself, but in a very real sense Mercia also encompasses the whole of Middle-earth. Although a devout Christian, Tolkien has had a crucial influence on the modern Pagan revival, and therefore represents all that is best in both traditions.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien (1892–1973) once said, ‘I am indeed in English terms a West-midlander at home only in the counties upon the Welsh Marches.’ He used the Mercian dialect of Old English for the Rohirrim (the Horse Riders of the Mark) in The Lord of the Rings, as well as names from Mercian royal genealogy. In terms of location and extent, however, Mercia corresponds to the Shire, with Tolkien’s childhood home of Sarehole, Worcestershire (now a suburb of Birmingham) being Hobbiton.

Falkata
01-31-2010, 11:03 PM
Send them to France

http://www.psoe.es/contents/showResource.do?urlRsr=/000000118000/000000118414.jpg

And them to Madagascar

http://www.vurdon.it/rumeni.jpg

It would be a good beginning :D

Sol Invictus
01-31-2010, 11:15 PM
There's a few things I want done; first and foremost, bring back the flag that represented us and who we are than the flag few over all government buildings during WWII and WWI. Canada came of age as a Nation during the days of the liberation of Italy, France, and Germany as well as the capture of the fortress of Vimy Ridge which no other nation on earth could do.

Apart from restablishing the Red Ensign, we should revert back to system we had of Confederation, being an independent group of sovereign states instead of provinces for adminiistrative objectives by the Federal Government. We should eliminate all ties to Britain outside of what represents tradition in Canadian life, and draw up a constitution more befitting a Republic and not a Constitutional Monarchy that we have today. Britain and us should remain friends but not like we have it today. We do not owe loyalty or allegiance to a foreign Monarchy, or head of state.

I think freemasonry, secret societies, and secretive political agreements that take place outside of Parliament, House of Commons should be prohibited and illegal. In cases of elected officials, it is considered high treason and punishable by death. I don't believe in Federalized Gun regulation & registration and it should be avoided or left up to local Governments with consent of the people on what should be left up to administration to have regulated including the food, water supply.

Immigration should be done only in Europe. You must have a trade or wish to go to school. Only when grants have accepted you will they co sign to have you brought into the country to study or work. You will swear and Oath of Allegiance to the constitution and to your state/province.

Every Canadian male from 17-60 capable of bearing arms will be part of the unorganized militia. Neighbourhoods will have town and city armouries that will be defended by the organized militia. all cities/towns will have a town hall where their elected officials will be held accountable for redresses of grievances, local mandates, and motions they wish to carry in the House of Commons. Healthcare will be left to the state/province level and will not be enforced Nation-wide.

The Constitution is the sole authority and represents the Confederation of Canada. If the government violates it, it is the duty and right of the people to reinstate one that will properly execute it's duties to protect and preserve it.

Gold and Silver will be issued as currency only. The printing of Bank Notes, or any other Promise to Pay by government or private organizations should be prohibited and illegal, a summary conviction with mandatory jail time. It is to be regulated by Government alone.

Government will be responsible for mustering expeditionary forces capable of strategic retaliatory strikes against enemies abroad. The Senate, and not the administration of the Prime Minister alone will be responsible for military action, and there can be no if and's or but's. It is constitutionally protected and cannot be amended, altered in any way shape or form.

The military is prohibited from entering into the country to assist law enforcement. Any order to do so will be considered high treason and punishable by death. Once expeditionary forces have completed their objectives, it will be immediately dissolved and reabsorbed into the local organized militias where it will continue to train regularly for future conflicts, thus, military occupying territory outside of Canada is illegal.

Invasion of sovereign nations are to be used with measured response. Any political leader found to have ties to organizations who are at war with us, is guilty of harbouring the enemy for the sake of subversion and will be held accountable for treason.

The press will not be regulated by any one person, group or idea. The press is prohibited from taking gifts or favours from members of the Senate, elected officials, or any political process. It will be fair and unbiased and will be enforced nation-wide. The RCMP will remain the Federal Police force, responsible for protection of the Senate, and government buildings. It also will be fair and unbiased, with the constitution being it's one and only authority. No man outside the limits of constitutional law can tell these, or any other free white Canadian men, boys, women and girls what to do.

I could literally write pages and pages of this, but you'd probably just be better off reading the U.S Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Don't think that it exists anymore today though so don't look at the U.S.A of today of what a Constitutional Republic should look like. If certain things were immune to being altered, then these problems wouldn't exist, which I would like to see happen.

d3cimat3d
02-01-2010, 05:13 AM
My country is a bacterial infection growing on Europe.

Sigrid
02-01-2010, 06:02 AM
I would say that I would like to see it ideally a peaceful nation without so much foreign conflict (that foreign conflict being American made, of course). I'm tired of my government blaming so much of this foreign conflict on the events of 09/11/2001. It's been nine years already. So I believe it's much more than that and I believe I know some of the reasons why. I would also like it to ideally try to help its own citizens more than sending millions of dollars in aid to countries who can't ever seem to help themselves.

But this idealism won't go anywhere as this is the sad state of affairs that we're in.

Northern_Paladin
02-01-2010, 06:06 AM
I felt like I just read an Encyclopedia looking at the first page of this thread. :D

I have heard of many Dutch Nationalist Parties but I also have heard they are not doing much in terms of changing things.

I have also heard of the BNP and they are accomplishing even less. And in America was have A3P but they are accomplishing nothing as well.

Most of these Groups are Fringe and have yet to be taken seriously by the Majority of their Countrymen.

Jäger
02-01-2010, 06:17 AM
Ein Volk. Ein Reich. Wie früher. :)

Lulletje Rozewater
02-01-2010, 07:50 AM
I felt like I just read an Encyclopedia looking at the first page of this thread. :D

I have heard of many Dutch Nationalist Parties but I also have heard they are not doing much in terms of changing things.

I have also heard of the BNP and they are accomplishing even less. And in America was have A3P but they are accomplishing nothing as well.

Most of these Groups are Fringe and have yet to be taken seriously by the Majority of their Countrymen.

And that is so difficult.
Take the AWB for instance.
90.000 members and about 40.000 non members.
They could have made a difference with regard to the decision on "own state".
What do they do: Rip the WTC to pieces with their 4x4.
Terreblanche falls off his horse,he commits a murder,he appoints 60 to 65 year old wankers as his generals,has an affair with Jani Allen etc etc.
Not one intelligent graduate except for my old fart father.
Look at the KKK,same crap

If a right wing group is to be taken seriously,it must have 3 ideals:Honesty-Integrity-Loyalty toward the people.Fancy footwork does not help,concrete objectives without resorting to violence.
The masses are peace loving and in many ways idiots following the law
Let's take the BNP(I know little of them).
If they give in to the "request" to be multi coloured,then they will lose the present members too.
If they don't give in, then they, obviously, go to court.So what???
It could even be a blessing.

I do not know what happened to Wilders,but he has got guts and guts is what the sheeple respect.

http://i48.tinypic.com/o7llpt.jpg

Northern_Paladin
02-01-2010, 08:18 AM
Going to Court could lead to Terrible things like Press Coverage. Those People at the BNP aren't exactly too Smart.:p

Beorn
02-01-2010, 08:22 AM
I have also heard of the BNP and they are accomplishing even less. And in America was have A3P but they are accomplishing nothing as well.

Over one million European election votes, two MEP seats, increase in UK wide votes in local elections, etc, etc...

Yeah, if only they were to apply themselves. :rolleyes:

Northern_Paladin
02-01-2010, 08:30 AM
Over one million European election votes, two MEP seats, increase in UK wide votes in local elections, etc, etc...

Yeah, if only they were to apply themselves. :rolleyes:

How many Seats are there Total? Well maybe they will get more Votes. But why do they seem to shy away from Going to Court? I thought the English were Soccer Hooligans, but the BNP is Afraid to go to a Court of Law or Labeled "Racist". Doesn't make sense.

Beorn
02-01-2010, 08:36 AM
I thought the English were Soccer Hooligans, but the BNP is Afraid to go to a Court of Law or Labeled "Racist". Doesn't make sense.

The BNP aren't the English. The English aren't the BNP.

The BNP went to court and lost. You are aware of that?

nisse
02-01-2010, 12:16 PM
My country is a bacterial infection growing on Europe.

You mean Moldova?

No matter what country you mean, may be you should re-think that.

The Lawspeaker
02-01-2010, 04:36 PM
About forfeiting Dutch citizenship.

It would be possible to lose citizenship. A person that will serve in foreign armed forces (regardless if the individual would hold dual citizenship) will immediately lose Dutch citizenship and if those armed forces belong to a power that would be deemed hostile against the Netherlands the person would be put on trial (when arrest is possible) for high treason to which there is only one fitting punishment: the firing squad.

This does not go for Dutch citizens involved in a popular uprising against the government as an uprising is a signal that the government has lost it's mandate to govern the country.

A person would also lose his/her citizenship if he/she accepts the citizenship of a foreign power.

Óttar
02-01-2010, 07:57 PM
I would ideally see the dissolution of the "Federal" reserve, putting America back on the gold standard, being free of Arab oil and the Chinese, the withdrawal of American troops from occupied Germany, the economic crippling of tyrannical states (Sudan, Afghanistan/Pak,) the dissolution of the IRS, a loose alliance with the Brits, and general isolationism.

Defend the borders, deliver the mail, uphold and defend the Constitution, have a free market with limited controls to curb corruption, and the legalisation of all drugs.

One can dream...

Nodens
02-01-2010, 09:37 PM
No matter what country you mean, may be you should re-think that.

Even Vatican City?

nisse
02-02-2010, 12:50 AM
Even Vatican City?

Ask The Papist that one ;)

Murphy
02-02-2010, 01:41 AM
What about the Papist?

Regards,
The Papist.

nisse
02-02-2010, 02:14 AM
He's awesome :ohwell:

d3cimat3d
02-02-2010, 03:41 AM
You mean Moldova?

No matter what country you mean, may be you should re-think that.

No actually I was refering to Ukraine, due to its high levels of corruption, that's why I compared it to a bacterial infection because if it becomes part of the EU it will only drain the budget. I was just trying to be poetic though.

nisse
02-02-2010, 03:50 AM
No actually I was refering to Ukraine, due to its high levels of corruption, that's why I compared it to a bacterial infection because if it becomes part of the EU it will only drain the budget. I was just trying to be poetic though.

...Oh...so you meant a hypothetical bacteria...since no way will Ukraine join the EU.

Thank god people are wiser than that now :D.

Lulletje Rozewater
02-02-2010, 04:45 AM
About forfeiting Dutch citizenship.

It would be possible to lose citizenship. A person that will serve in foreign armed forces (regardless if the individual would hold dual citizenship) will immediately lose Dutch citizenship and if those armed forces belong to a power that would be deemed hostile against the Netherlands the person would be put on trial (when arrest is possible) for high treason to which there is only one fitting punishment: the firing squad.

Interesting,but what about the Korean war. and the NSB and the ones who fought to free themselves from the Dutch,such as Suriname.
If you lose your citizenship and still have your foreign one, how could the Netherlands put the person on trial.



]This does not go for Dutch citizens involved in a popular uprising against the government as an uprising is a signal that the government has lost it's mandate to govern the country.

What about Chile-Madagascar, even South Africa.Is oke for a Connie Braam to murder innocent people.Is there a difference between riots and uprising en masse.


A person would also lose his/her citizenship if he/she accepts the citizenship of a foreign power.

So, if I get a South African citizenship over and above my Dutch I lose it.
I know of a few Dutch who lost it,but not one Dutch lost his Dutch passport in Australia/America/Spain/Italy all foreign powers.

The Lawspeaker
02-02-2010, 10:02 AM
Interesting,but what about the Korean war. and the NSB and the ones who fought to free themselves from the Dutch,such as Suriname.
If you lose your citizenship and still have your foreign one, how could the Netherlands put the person on trial.
Because that person was also a Dutch citizen at the moment he decided to take up arms against the Netherlands. Thus what he commits is treason.





What about Chile-Madagascar, even South Africa.Is oke for a Connie Braam to murder innocent people.Is there a difference between riots and uprising en masse.
The problem is that Braam's actions were not aimed at the Netherlands. It would be a South African issue- not a Dutch one. Dutch law holds no jurisdiction in Africa as they are not our colonies. It has to be specifically aimed at the Netherlands. But I believe that she should be extradited to South Africa and what they do with her is their business (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Tombstone_courthouse_gallows.jpg).




So, if I get a South African citizenship over and above my Dutch I lose it.
I know of a few Dutch who lost it,but not one Dutch lost his Dutch passport in Australia/America/Spain/Italy all foreign powers.
While they should loose it. When someone accepts a foreign passport he/she has to renounce his/her Dutch passport. You cannot be a member of two communities.

SwordoftheVistula
02-03-2010, 06:37 AM
But why do they seem to shy away from Going to Court?.

Because it costs a lot of money, which they don't have much of, and the courts are biased against them anyways.


Generally I agree with what Ottar said except for:


the economic crippling of tyrannical states (Sudan, Afghanistan/Pak,)

The problem is that tyrants seem to be the only people that can keep these crazy places from total anarchy and becoming a base for international Islamic terrorist groups.

Northern_Paladin
02-03-2010, 07:01 AM
Because it costs a lot of money, which they don't have much of, and the courts are biased against them anyways.


Generally I agree with what Ottar said except for:



The problem is that tyrants seem to be the only people that can keep these crazy places from total anarchy and becoming a base for international Islamic terrorist groups.

I find it funny that the BNP is so Rag Tag. The Muslim Terrorists in Britain are a lot Richer. Guess that's why Princess Diana Went for Dodi Al Fayed.

"But that's not how Royal Pussy Is Supposed to Behave".

But that is why MI6 Killed them. Royal British Pussy Just Can't Behave like that.

Bridie
02-07-2010, 04:43 AM
Ideally, I would see Australia as a Monarchy, with me as all-powerful Queen. :) I would form a massive Empire like the world has never seen before with my army of savage of Amazons and everything that is good will be mine, everything that is crap will be yours. :)

Praamžius
02-07-2010, 08:48 AM
And i see Lithuania being Grand Duchy again and main religion would be Romuva , and later it would unite with Latvia and call itself Grand Duchy of Balts :D

The Lawspeaker
03-24-2010, 03:25 PM
Addendum:


Healthcare
Rather then developing a NHS-styled healthcare system we should look towards adopting the Swiss system and improving it to suit our conventions.
Coverage by a (income based) health insurance will be mandatory for all citizens and foreign employees living in the Netherlands. All non-Dutch temporarily living in the Netherlands (like foreign civil servants, members of permanent missions and those working for foreign companies as well as their families) are exempted from joining a Dutch health insurance scheme and may join one of their own or stay with their present scheme but they may join a Dutch one as well after having lived in the country for 3 consecutive months.
The system would be a mixture of private and public insurance schemes:


private healthcare (for instance for visits to a dentist or general practitioner)



subsidized private (subsidized by the individual cantons- like home care services for the elderly, for those enduring difficult pregnancies, after birth, for the handicapped and the infirm etc)



public (by federal or provincial funding- for instance for life-threatening illnesses like cancer or HIV-AIDS or for difficult operations or transplants to be conducted in a federal university hospital ("academisch ziekenhuis") from which each canton should have one)

All present public hospitals will remain in the hands of the community by putting them under local and cantonal authority although private or church-based clinics and hospitals will be tolerated (they will not receive funding) but will be linked to private foundations, insurances or the church.



I changed my mind on this one:

Healthcare:

There should be a clause in the constitution that makes sure that "available healthcare for each citizen is a constitutional right".

First of all. We should study the French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_France#Quality) and British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29) healthcare systems and pick those parts that will suit our convention and such a system should be the shared responsibility of the provinces and the Federal Ministry of Health. For instance the consumer price of medicine (regardless of what medicine and what quantity) will be fixed at ƒ 7.77 (€ 3.52). For all further costs below the ƒ 45,- (€ 20.42) mark there will be 70 percent reimburse of the costs- above it.. it will be free of charge. This will be done in order to make sure that people realize that medicine costs at least some money but if someone would not be able to pay those costs for whatever reason at that moment it will be free of charge.

If citizens will need after-care it will be provided free of charge and if they would need a train or a bus ticket in order to get home it will be provider for by the General Cashier (as based on the British model) which will have it's office in each hospital or clinic.
But the system will be made in such a way that those that are healthy will pay for those that are sick. So it will be a system based on solidarity. We are all citizens of the same country, of the same union regardless of what province (or then canton) we live in and regardless of our personal health.
The majority of the system will be based upon the French system with it's checks and balances.

Of course Dutch healthcare will be provided for:

1) The general Dutch population (immigrants will NOT be covered unless of European descent) - and only those working (even if non-European descent) for Dutch companies or international organizations will be fully covered. . Note: foreigners that are married to Dutch before the implementation of the law will be counted as Dutch citizens.

2) Tourists who have an accident or get sick (even with a pre-existing condition) in our country. This means Europeans (including Americans, Canadians etc) in general for all other countries there will have to be a specified treaty otherwise the bill will be footed to that particular country.

3) A special clause should exist for European Americans who are unable to get healthcare in their own country or whose "health" insurance fraud will deny them healthcare. They will be treated in exactly the same manner as a Dutch citizens.

Of course everyone has the right to be stupid and therefore a clause should be added allowing the existence of private healthcare and those that choose for it will be exempt of paying their annual healthcare taxes but they should realize that they are out on their own.

I still believe that each province/canton should have a Academisch Ziekenhuis (University Hospital) which will be under the joint control of the University and the Federal Health Service.

The Lawspeaker
03-25-2010, 09:22 AM
Addendum on Healthcare:

Along with socialized medicine there should be room for personal initiative on the healthcare market. People will of course be able to become care workers without being involved in the Federal Health Service and a patient (whether ill or mentally or physically challenged) should be able to choose his own aid worker. Regardless of the fact whether the aid worker is trained or untrained because he has to remain boss of his own life (so for his instance a patient could hire his or her own mother).
That's why I believe in the continuation and expansion of the Persoonsgebonden budget (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persoonsgebonden_budget#Wat_kan_niet_met_een_PGB) (or in Flanders: Persoonlijk assistentiebudget (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persoonlijk_assistentiebudget)) with the money to do such activities being provided for by the tax payer. So in that respect nothing will change.

Regardless of the present law I believe that some minor therapy should be allowed to given to the patient if it is administered by a trained care worker.

The check to receive a PGB (http://www.pgb.nl/persaldo/english/?waxtrapp=tdtvrMsHcwOhcPjBCGO)/PAB should be left to either a central indication unit in each canton or can be carried out by a psychiatrist or your general practitioner.
Checks on the quality of care will be carried out by a unit of the FHS.

The Lawspeaker
05-10-2010, 08:05 PM
I would prefer a more folkish form of Switzerland. Uniting all of the Netherlands (also those in the German and French borderlands and Flanders) into a loose confederation of cantons. A bit like the USA or Switzerland.

A small change in ideas. The United Netherlands should also encompass Wallonia (minus Luxembourg) and of course the borderlands in France and Germany. The official name of the Republic of the United Netherlands will be Belgica Fœderata (in Latin- as was the original name of the Dutch Republic) so it would be a compromise between the Northern and Southern Netherlands. The national abbrevation on the car registration plate should be BF - in the same fashion as the Swiss is CH (Confœderatio Helvetica). Although the normal names will of course remain in fashion in the same way as is done in Switzerland.

It's flag should remain the red, white and blue or perhaps even the orange, white, blue Prinsenvlag (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Prinsenvlag.svg) but a new crest should be designed that would unite ideas from the crests of the old Dutch Republic, Belgium and the former Kingdom of the Netherlands. The old motto of the Dutch Republic Concordia res parvae crescunt should replace both the Belgian 'L Union Fait La Force (as it means essentially the same thing) and the Dutch Je Martiendrai (which is the motto of the House of Orange).

A change would come in the fact that both the House of Orange-Nassau and the House of Saxe-Coburg would have the birth-right to fulfil a special role. In times of war a Stadtholder will be elected by the States-General (usually one of the members of one of the two Noble (former Royal) Houses would have the honour to become the Stadtholder), the cantons and the officer corps of the Armed Forces which will have dictatorial powers for a period of six months. He will also receive the title Kapitein-Generaal (Commander in Chief) for that same period after which he will have to face a trial (before a renewed Great Council of Mechelen, which will become the Surpreme Court) to explain his every action and every penny he has spend.





The state:

Each canton would have it's own laws, courts and parliament and each town and community with a Town Meeting (like in New England, USA or in some Swiss cantons). As such it will become a really decentralized and very democratic confederation.
For the peoples of the Netherlands one would see a real decentralization and respect for the rights of the individual cantons and most certainly the various communities (villages and towns). The cantons will use their own dialects in meetings and in their own laws. A Dutch translation will only need to be present during cases in which someone doesn't speak the local dialect or language.
Running the day to day affairs will be left to the individual cantons - and communities according to their own wishes. The central government in The Hague will only deal with Education and Health Care ( there will be federal vouchers and a Federal Dutch NHS), foreign policies, the environment (for the first 20 years) and the armed forces.
Since the name "province" to describe the individual member states would remind people of the centralization and the monarchy the new word would be "state" or "canton".
Nothing would change here apart from the fact that the Netherlands would have three official languages: Dutch, Walloon French and Frisian. - with special provisions being made for the German-speakers in the areas around Kleef, Gulik, Oost Friesland and the Graafschap Benthem. For them the German language will have local recognition and they can form up their own political parties for their own local and cantonal assemblies (for Oost-Friesland, Overijssel, Gelderland and Limburg).

Those areas will undergo gradual Dutchification (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=197577#post197577) and their (Germanified or imported German) citizens will have all the rights their Dutch, Flemish, Walloon and Frisian counterparts do.

When it comes to the Walloons: the seat of government will alternate (over a period of 20 years) between The Hague and Brussels. Attempts will be made to bring the French-speaking catholic of Louvain-la-Neuve to Brussels or Liege.. and in case it is felt that the atmosphere should be kept intact the town itself should be torn down completely and rebuild in Brussels or Liege as part of the city.
All over Wallonia attempts should be made to preserve the Walloon dialects and the original and distinct culture with the same vigour as would be done for the other Dutch- as Walloons are to be considered in the same way as Swiss French are considered Swiss. There will however be five areas open to Flemification/Dutchification: Voeren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voeren), Brussels, parts of Walloon Brabant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Brabant) that used to be Dutch-speaking (the rest will be divided up between the neighbouring Walloon cantons), the once Dutch-speaking parts of Artesië (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Artois)(which will become a canton) and the parts of Flanders that had been taken over by France.

Their cultural capital should be Liege- and the cathedral (destroyed by the French revolutionaries) should be rebuild and no expense should be spared in bringing that part of the Southern Netherlands back to life. The Southern Netherlands should become exactly the same in infrastructure and affluence as their Northern counterparts. The separation between North and South is to be considered an error of history that will be reversed.




The Hague as Federal Capital.

The Hague will still be the Federal Capital in the same sense as Bern is it in Switzerland or Washington D.C in the U.S.A. Whether The Hague will be seperated from Holland and it's capital moved to another city should be debated in the parliaments of a re-united Holland and in the Federal Parliament- and should be decided by a referendum in The Hague and Holland- before this will happen The Hague will be officially declared a city (it has been done before by King Louis Napoleon in 1806 and confirmed by his brother Emperor Napoleon in 1810 but it's city rights have been revoked by William I in act of revenge).
It could well be possible that The Hague will be an independent Capital-Region or Capital Canton, without Federal taxation and Federal representation (no taxation without representation means no taxation and no representation). The Hague will effectively rule itself but will de facto be part of the Dutch Republic. Only a Federal Chancellery, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, of Domestic Affairs and Defense will remain in the Hague. All the other (reduced) institutions will be spread across the country because modern communication makes it possible to decentralize affairs.
The Hague will of course remain the seat of international agencies and companies (even more attractive because of a lower tax rate) and will possible become one of the wealthiest city's per capita in Europe. (A bit like Geneva). Since The Hague is the Federal Capital and internationally so important it should be the showcase of our country: ugly, dilapidated boroughs will be either restored to their former glory or blown up and some of the ugly industrial zones (those that know the city: Laakhaven, Binckhorst) will house the remaining ministries and federal institutions and will become green, eco-friendly and modern, pedestrianized showcases of Dutch urban planning. The old canals within the city should be preserved, cleaned and restored to their former glory and public transport should disappear underground (at least in the older and more densely populated parts of the city) . Leaving more room for pedestrianized streets and canals. The Beatrixkwartier- and the older areas of the inner city that were bombed in '45- that is now being turned into a commercial area should be restored as the Jugendstil-part of The Hague that it was before the 1945 air raid and the commercial activities should be moved to the area that is now around Laakhaven (turning the old dilapidated area it into a project similar to the London Docklands).

It may be strange that I write a lot about a certain city but I believe that a Federal Capital is a part of the country that should be seen as the showcase and since decentralization will bring a lot of changes I describe it.



Brussels- the Federal Capital.

Not just The Hague will have the status of Federal Capital and Capital-Region. Brussels will have to and government would alternate between the two cities over a period of 20 years. A great deal should be done to make sure that the city gets Brabantified (Flemified) and public life will become completely bi-lingual- and after a period of some 200 years Dutch-speaking. Funds should be poured in clearing up the mess that has been made under the later years of the Kingdom of Belgium of the infrastructure and the look and feel of the city. Urban motorways (including eyesores like the Kantersteen) and railways will disappear underground and in the old centre the original buildings (thus reconnecting the two parts of the old city)and in the outer areas parks and new boroughs will be build on top of them, old boroughs will either be gentrified or become examples of urban regeneration. Where possible the Zenne (river Senne) should be restored and the boulevards that lay on it's path should be broken down and rebuild slightly to the north and west of the course of the river so a district of parks and boulevards can be created that would be connected to the old town (which should be restored to it's former glory). The underground network should be expanded considerably and the streetcar network should go underground. The outer beltway will become the absolute city limit but it will be made sure that clean and green industrial areas will be located along main artery roads leading up to the beltway- and they will be surrounded by forests or parks in order to make sure that the quality of life remains excellent.

Since the Netherlands will not be a EU-member: the European Union would have to leave Brussels and the area's that were dependant on it's existence will be left to private investors. For instance the Espace Léopold ("Leopoldruimte") will be turned into the central business district of Brussels. In a local referendum people will also have to decide whether the old name will be kept intact since Leopold was a Belgian King.

That said.. the old memories of the Belgian monarchy (as should the memories of the old Dutch monarchy) should be treasured and left intact. The Royal Palace should be turned into a National Museum: dedicated to the history of the Netherlands from a southern point of view. Which would of course include the Spanish and Austrian Netherlands, the short-lived United States of Belgium, the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, the Belgian revolution and the history and collapse of the Kingdom of Belgium and it's reunification with the Netherlands.

The old Coudenberg Palace which once stood on the location of the current Royal Palace should be rebuild on a to be decided suitable location within the city and serve as an arts museum and hotel.

http://www.real-tennis.nl/Belgie/Coudenberg/coudenberg1659.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Paleis_op_de_Koudenberg.jpg

Private investors should also be encouraged to set up a zoological garden and a national open-air museum in it's vicinity.
An excellent transport network, a booming service sector, parks, haute culture, an excellent cuisine and the presence of the federal government (thus high-end jobs) would make Brussels a showcase capital.





Overpopulation

I believe that our country is hopelessly overpopulated and thus the population should be halved: by encouraging migration to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina and Brazil- the ideal population of this country should be roughly between 8 and 9.5 million. The local governments and perhaps the national government should use the money now used for development aid to educate those that wish to leave and provide them with loans that they can use to establish businesses at their preferred destination so they won't become dependent on their new government.

It would be preferable that the population of the entire Netherlands would be between 8 and 9.5 million so also unemployed Walloons would be encouraged to leave the country. Deals should be made with countries like the United States and particularly Canada to provide them with a new life. In the same way as should be done for the other Dutch citizens.




Infrastructure and land-use.

It will be vital for our country to sacrifice some areas under sea-level like the Alexanderpolder near Rotterdam, the Haarlemmermeerpolder, the Purmer and the Schermer and perhaps some areas in Lower Groningen, Flevoland and Lower Friesland and West Brabant that should be converted into storage areas of excess water and full time lakes- while the country should work towards opening up old canals and the creation of new modern polders in the coastal areas of Holland that will house new villages and modern agriculture. In addition I believe construction of two new national airports (since what used to be Schiphol will be submerged when the Haarlemmerpolder will be sacrificed) will be needed- that will be connected to Amsterdam by monorail: one on an (to create) island before the coast near IJmuiden (like the Maasvlakte) and one in the IJsselmeer. I still believe that a reduced Markerwaardplan should be carried out- it will house agriculture, windmills and a new national airport.


The situation between Wallonia and the rest of the Netherlands would at first be comparable to West and East Germany so lessons should be learned.

First of all- the Netherlands should have a couple of more densely populated areas to provide the services a modern country needs:

In the Northern Netherlands there would be more the Randstad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randstad) (now with 7 million inhabitants) then with just 2 million. To the South there will be the Vlaamse Ruit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Diamond) then the Brabantse Stedenrij running from Antwerp to Brussels (with around 2 million) and to the South-East the Meuse Valley that will be the area between Maastricht and Liege with around 1 million inhabitants. One of the lone wolves will be the city of Eindhoven in Brabant which would have around 350.000 inhabitants and it's own airfield. Maastricht will lose it's airfield and the services will be transferred to neighbouring Liege Bierset.
The rest would comprise of smaller cities, towns, small villages and countryside.

Also in the Southern Netherlands there will be some changes in the infrastructure and some minor sacrifices. Small selected parts of Western Flanders and the area around the Zwin will be turned into lakes for water storage and natural reserves whereas the infrastructure of the rest of the country will be upgraded. All overhead wiring (as is still common in large parts of Belgium) will be removed and the cables will be put underground. Homeowners and farmers will be encouraged to look after their property and bring it up to date.

Canals in cities like Antwerp and the Zenne in Brussels will be reopened and help getting rid of excess water - and in the same time help with beautifying the city in which they are located. Of course the pollution should be kept to a minimum and large fines will be put on polluting the natural resources.

The new national airport for Brussels would be at Charleroi (Hainnault) and Zaventem will be closed down as it is too close to the actual city for comfort.
The former Belgian Railways will be taken over lock, stock and barrel by the Dutch Railways and the entire network and rolling stock will be upgraded over time- the lines that are not part of the main lines will be transferred to the free market in the same way as should be done in the Northern Netherlands at the condition that services will be of an excellent quality, the trains and stations are to be kept clean and the trains will run on time- and one unified system of electric wires and security will remain in use at the entire network.

In Wallonia- as large sections of the population will move abroad because of unemployment (that cannot be easily solved) and of a falling birthrate more space will be left to develop the countryside and also give more space to the urban dwellers in the same way as would be the case in the Vlaamse Ruit or the Randstad Holland.

Farmers should be encouraged to look for traditional crops and to use those areas that can be used to grow grapes to produce excellent wines (as could be done in other areas of the Netherlands). Heavy industry will be located in the Meuse Valley around Liege as the coal mines of the Borinage have closed down a long time ago. Regulations should be put in place that ensure that those factories are clean and efficient. Both in methods of working, handling air pollution and waste water and in the way their plants look.
The time has come for Wallonia to become a modern, free market economy within the United Netherlands.

The Lawspeaker
05-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Still. The unique situation of Baarle-Nassau and Baarle-Hertog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau) will be remembered by keeping the old borderlines visible. In some cases the border ran right through houses and the area has over 25 enclaves so for the sake of history the marks should be kept intact. In order to make it fun for the tourists a couple of re-enactors dressed up in old Belgian and Dutch customs uniforms should keep the image of a border crossing intact.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Grenspaal_Baarle.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Huisnummer_Nassau.jpg


The old Drielandenpunt (Tripoint) at Vaals, Limburg can be kept intact for tourists as well- yet the new one will be established in the direct victinity of Oudiler, Liege or slightly to the South of it since the German-speaking part of Belgium will be transferred to Germany- and the former province of Luxembourg (for most parts) to Luxembourg.


On immigration, naturalization and citizenship.

I think that the Netherlands should completely overhaul it's immigration policy. When it comes to foreign labor it is perhaps a good idea to only hire people of related kin (West and North European- and overseas Europeans of Germanic descent- but preferably Afrikaners, Germans and Walloons) that can only stay here until the job is done and each year each permit is reviewed by a local referendum (in small communities). The Netherlands should only bring in a certain number of guest workers- preferably around 15.000. This doesn't include Germans, French, Walloons that are living in their own countries but who are working on our side of the border.

Since Wallonia will become part of the United Netherlands Walloons can freely work all over the country. When it comes to foreign labour it would be a good idea to hire people of related kin (West and North European- and overseas Europeans of Germanic descent- but preferably Afrikaners and Germans)-and for Wallonia Luxembourgers and French ) that can only stay here until the job is done and each year each permit is reviewed by a local referendum (in small communities). The Netherlands should only bring in a certain number of guest workers- preferably around 15.000. This doesn't include Germans, French that are living in their own countries but who are already working on our side of the border.

Svipdag
05-11-2010, 12:30 AM
I see it as a country governed strictly in accordance with its Constitution, a government which has ONLY those functions, responsibilities, and authority assigned to it by the Constitution, a Constitution which has been amended so as to prevent either the President or the Congress from overstepping their bounds, by allowing the President to function as Commander in Chief of the armed forces ONLY in time of war DECLARED BY CONGRESS, a Congress constrained by Constitutional amendment to operate exclusively within a BALANCED BUDGET.

This would, of course, require the abolition of the "alphabet soup" of government agencies which have arrogated to themselves the power to have their regulations possess the force of law. It would require that each of the major divisions of government confine itself strictly to its constitutionally mandated functions.

The making of laws being the constitutionally mandated function of the Congress, neither the courts nor any federal agency, nor the President would be permitted to usurp this function. The Constitution does not grant to the President the authority to issue Executive Orders having the force of law, nor does it empower any court to issue orders, including the Supreme Court.
Nor does the Constitution grant to the Supreme Court the Authority to rule upon the constitutionality of laws passed by the Congress and signed into law by the President .[If you don't believe me, READ IT !]

The intentionally cumbersome electoral process originally embodied in the Constitution was intended to prevent the election of an unqualified demagogue to the Presidency. Ideally, I would see this process restored.

The Tenth Amendment to the Constitution was intended to prevent the federal government from usurping the authority and responsibilities of the state legislatures. Ideally, I would see the balance between federal and state powers restored, which this Amendment was intended to guarantee.

Were the United States of America to be governed in accordance with rather than in defiance of its Constitution, it could be a financially solvent, politically stable nation.


__________________________________________________ ________
Delendus est Islam !

Megrez
06-19-2010, 09:30 PM
My country? Extinguished, nowhere on the maps and its name never pronounced again.

Nom de guerre
06-20-2010, 01:29 AM
As a night watchman state.

Svanhild
06-20-2010, 11:36 AM
How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4783/grossdeutschland.png

The political system? A form of immediate democracy with pro-nation, pro-German leadership.

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 11:50 AM
[QUOTE=Svanhild;226698]How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4783/grossdeutschland.png
QUOTE]

Oh my god, sudtirol in german hands again? :rolleyes: The majority of the german community left a long time ago... 88% of the population there is Italian. In your opinion germany needs more 'lebensraum' ?

Svanhild
06-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Oh my god, sudtirol in german hands again? :rolleyes: The majority of the german community left a long time ago... 88% of the population there is Italian. In your opinion germany needs more 'lebensraum' ?
Pardon my french, but better make your homework before your spit out complete rubbish.

According to official statistics, ~69% of South Tyrolians speak German. Almost 62% are Tyroleans and only 26% Italian immigrants. Südtirol remains occupied German/Austrian territory.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Language_distribution_in_South_Tyrol%2C_Italy_2001 .png/800px-Language_distribution_in_South_Tyrol%2C_Italy_2001 .png

The population of South Tyrol is 464,530, with 63 inhabitants per square kilometer (Office of Statistics for the Province of Bozen, 2002). Most of the population lies in the central metropolitan area of Bozen and in the low-laying valleys of the mountainous Province. The German-speaking majority makes up 70% of the population, while Italian and Ladin-speaking residents make up 26% and 4% of the population respectively.

Südtirol has never been Italian and will never be. Injustice never expires.

Radojica
06-20-2010, 12:32 PM
Allowing people to work according to their professional knowledge, not political orientation, taking the power out of tycoon hands and that politicians start thinking more about common people, not their pockets full of euros.

During Milosevic only him and ten more people were stealing people's money, while now everybody starting from secretaries, over WC cleaners, to ministers and mayors of the towns/cities who are in ruling political clics. THey make me sick and to think that Milosevic dictatorship was nothing comparing to these assholes who are 10 times worst than him.

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 12:41 PM
Pardon my french, but better make your homework before your spit out rubbish.

According to official statistics, ~69% of South Tyrolians speak German. Almost 62% are Tyroleans and only 26% Italian immigrants. Südtirol remains occupied German/Austrian territory.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Language_distribution_in_South_Tyrol%2C_Italy_2001 .png/800px-Language_distribution_in_South_Tyrol%2C_Italy_2001 .png

Südtirol has been never Italian and will never be.

This statistics must be german then.. and you have never been to Altro-Adice ? I haven't met one human beein there who didn't speak Italian. It was readjustment of the frontiers of Italy girl:thumb001:

Even your beloved leader said in "Mein Kampf" : Adolf claimed that Germans were just a small and irrelevant minority in Southern Tyrol (this definition including also Trentino) and he acknowledged the German portion of Southern Tyrol as a permanent possession of Italy.

So Please ;) I think you own me a nice plate of SAURKRAUT , love the stuff:D

Zyklop
06-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Even your beloved leader said in "Mein Kampf" : Adolf claimed that Germans were just a small and irrelevant minority in Southern Tyrol (this definition including also Trentino) Let's see if you are a liar or not:


I should like to state here that I was one of those who, at the time when the fate of South Tyrol was being decided – that is to say, from August 1914 to November 1918 – took my place where that country also could have been effectively defended, namely, in the Army. I did my share in the fighting during those years, not merely to save South Tyrol from being lost but also to save every other German province for the Fatherland.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifThe parliamentary sharpers did not take part in that combat. The whole canaille played party politics. On the other hand, we carried on the fight in the belief that a victorious issue of the War would enable the German nation to keep South Tyrol also; but the loud-mouthed traitor carried on a seditious agitation against such a victorious issue, until the fighting Siegfried succumbed to the dagger plunged in his back. It was only natural that the inflammatory and hypocritical speeches of the elegantly dressed parliamentarians on the Vienna Rathaus Platz or in front of the Feldherrnhalle in Munich could not save South Tyrol for Germany. That could be done only by the fighting battalions at the Front. Those who broke up that fighting front betrayed South Tyrol, as well as the other districts of Germany.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifAnyone who thinks that the South Tyrol question can be solved today by protests and manifestations and processions organized by various associations is either a humbug or merely a German philistine.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIn this regard it must be quite clearly understood that we cannot get back the territories we have lost if we depend on solemn imprecations before the throne of the Almighty God or on pious hopes in a League of Nations, but only by the force of arms.
As far as concerns myself personally, I can state with a good conscience that I would have courage enough to take part in a campaign for the reconquest of South Tyrol, at the head of parliamentarian storm battalions consisting of parliamentarian gasconaders and all the party leaders, also the various Councillors of State. Only the Devil knows whether I might have the luck of seeing a few shells suddenly burst over this 'burning' demonstration of protest. I think that if a fox were to break into a poultry yard his presence would not provoke such a helter-skelter and rush to cover as we should witness in the band of 'protesters'.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifThe vilest part of it all is that these talkers themselves do not believe that anything can be achieved in this way. Each one of them knows very well how harmless and ineffective their whole pretence is. They do it only because it is easier now to babble about the restoration of South Tyrol than to fight for its preservation in days gone by.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifEach one plays the part that he is best capable of playing in life. In those days we offered our blood. To-day these people are engaged in whetting their tusks.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIt is particularly interesting to note today how legitimist circles in Vienna preen themselves on their work for the restoration of South Tyrol. Seven years ago their august and illustrious Dynasty helped, by an act of perjury and treason, to make it possible for the victorious world-coalition to take away South Tyrol. At that time these circles supported the perfidious policy adopted by their Dynasty and did not trouble themselves in the least about the fate of South Tyrol or any other province. Naturally it is easier today to take up the fight for this territory, since the present struggle is waged with 'the weapons of the mind'. Anyhow, it is easier to join in a 'meeting of protestation' and talk yourself hoarse in giving vent to the noble indignation that fills your breast, or stain your finger with the writing of a newspaper article, than to blow up a bridge, for instance, during the occupation of the Ruhr.
The reason why certain circles have made the question of South Tyrol the pivot of German-Italian relations during the past few years is quite evident. Jews and Habsburg legitimists are greatly interested in preventing Germany from pursuing a policy of alliance which might lead one day to the resurgence of a free German fatherland. It is not out of love for South Tyrol that they play this role today – for their policy would turn out detrimental rather than helpful to the interests of that province – but through fear of an agreement being established between Germany and Italy.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifA tendency towards lying and calumny lies in the nature of these people, and that explains how they can calmly and brazenly attempt to twist things in such a way as to make it appear that we have 'betrayed' South Tyrol.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifThere is one clear answer that must be given to these gentlemen. It is this: Tyrol has been betrayed, in the first place, by every German who was sound in limb and body and did not offer himself for service at the Front during 1914–1918 to do his duty towards his country.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIn the second place, Tyrol was betrayed by every man who, during those years did not help to reinforce the national spirit and the national powers of resistance, so as to enable the country to carry through the War and keep up the fight to the very end.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIn the third place, South Tyrol was betrayed by everyone who took part in the November Revolution, either directly by his act or indirectly by a cowardly toleration of it, and thus broke the sole weapon that could have saved South Tyrol.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIn the fourth place, South Tyrol was betrayed by those parties and their adherents who put their signatures to the disgraceful treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifAnd so the matter stands, my brave gentlemen, who make your protests only with words.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifTo-day I am guided by a calm and cool recognition of the fact that the lost territories cannot be won back by the whetted tongues of parliamentary spouters but only by the whetted sword; in other words, through a fight where blood will have to be shed.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifNow, I have no hesitations in saying that today, once the die has been cast, it is not only impossible to win back South Tyrol through a war but I should definitely take my stand against such a movement, because I am convinced that it would not be possible to arouse the national enthusiasm of the German people and maintain it in such a way as would be necessary in order to carry through such a war to a successful issue. On the contrary, I believe that if we have to shed German blood once again it would be criminal to do so for the sake of liberating 200,000 Germans, when more than seven million neighbouring Germans are suffering under foreign domination and a vital artery of the German nation has become a playground for hordes of African negros.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifIf the German nation is to put an end to a state of things which threatens to wipe it off the map of Europe it must not fall into the errors of the pre-War period and make the whole world its enemy. But it must ascertain who is its most dangerous enemy so that it can concentrate all its forces in a struggle to beat him. And if, in order to carry through this struggle to victory, sacrifices should be made in other quarters, future generations will not condemn us for that. They will take account of the miseries and anxieties which led us to make such a bitter decision, and in the light of that consideration they will more clearly recognize the brilliancy of our success.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifAgain I must say here that we must always be guided by the fundamental principle that, as a preliminary to winning back lost provinces, the political independence and strength of the motherland must first be restored.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/dot.gifThe first task which has to be accomplished is to make that independence possible and to secure it by a wise policy of alliances, which presupposes an energetic management of our public affairs.http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv2ch13.html

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Let's see if you are a liar or not:

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv2ch13.html

According in what you just given me NOT... and his declaration of Sud-Tirol beeing italian is even on youtube somewhere, when adolf came to visit Italy.
It was agreed by the fascist alliance back then.

Austrians there where given the 'option'. (Option) going to austria or (Dableiben) assimilation to Italy. The germans who stayed chose very well I think. LOL and 1/3 form those who left came back after 1945 :D SO PLEASE:D

Zyklop
06-20-2010, 01:21 PM
According in what you just given me NOT...You obviously speculate on people being to stupid to read. It's the passage from Mein Kampf you were referring to.


and his declaration of Sud-Tirol beeing italian is even on youtube somewhere, when adolf came to visit Italy.
Youtube, wow. Could it be this agreement happened 15 years after Mein Kampf and was withdrawn as soon as Musolini was disposed in 1943?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zone_of_the_Alpine_Foothills

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 01:35 PM
You obviously speculate on people being to stupid to read. It's the passage from Mein Kampf you were referring to.
Youtube, wow. Could it be this agreement happened 15 years after Mein Kampf and was withdrawn as soon as Musolini was disposed in 1943?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Zone_of_the_Alpine_Foothills

Yes, It was 15 years after mein kampf... and a passage from mein kampf who suites your argument is not good enough. He acknowledged sud-tirol as being Italian.. that is a fact! Il Duce said the historic words as thanks to Adolf:
'Das werde ich ihnen nie vergessen'...

In his book mein kampf said the german speaking people have no right to it. so get educated, German!

Grazie mille e va fan culo!

Zyklop
06-20-2010, 02:05 PM
Yes, It was 15 years after mein kampf... and a passage from mein kampf who suites your argument is not good enough.Just for the record:


Even your beloved leader said in "Mein Kampf" : Adolf claimed that Germans were just a small and irrelevant minority in Southern Tyrol (this definition including also Trentino)
Obviously you were lying.

He acknowledged sud-tirol as being Italian.. that is a fact! In 1939 South Tyrole was temporarily given to Musolini as a reward for his acceptance of German-Austrian unification, it was retracted as soon as Italians showed their definition of loyalty in 1943.
I actually have not enough time to discuss the topic of 90 years suppression of Germans in South Tyrole with some Dutch, for people interested in the topic of post-WWII resistance against Italianisation I however suggest acquainting yourself with the history of the BAS freedom fighters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrolean_Liberation_Committee

poiuytrewq0987
06-20-2010, 02:09 PM
Clearly a population exchange is the answer to the Tyrol problem. ;)

poiuytrewq0987
06-20-2010, 02:10 PM
How do you see your country, ideally ?

My country? I am countryless. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/SFRYmap.PNG/800px-SFRYmap.PNG

Don
06-20-2010, 02:11 PM
Like in the Old times, when the war and the world was not ruled by economic or technology wars, when the sword was the necessary element and the final confrontation was man to man, as ever, when being Spaniard was being the member of the most powerful country of rude, advanced and indomitable men and women who didn't allowed no one of the present degradations to our people in this multicultural invaded country... because of our Stigma of Guilt for being who we are and just because we ruled the world and the inferior breeds that dared to challenge us and suffered.

Freed from the stigmas... immunes, as me, to the attacks based on envies and ignorance.

That, or just living in a Democracy. Because this fuck is not democracy, where we only can chose between 2 parties of the same shit, worshipers of the same infamous cults and away from what the People really wants.

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 02:15 PM
"Obviously you were lying"

LOL yeah .. if you can´t beat them.. just call em a liar :D
LOL BAS group? never heard from them... :coffee:

Look at the chapter II-14 of Mein Kampf... Italien besitz Sud-Tirol
YOU ARE A LIAR , GERMAN! He only says that Lotharingen was stolen form germany!

Zyklop
06-20-2010, 02:48 PM
LOL BAS group? never heard from them... :coffee:They surely never were mentioned in any Dutch World of Warcraft fanzine.

Look at the chapter II-14 of Mein Kampf... Italien besitz Sud-Tirol
YOU ARE A LIAR , GERMAN! He only says that Lotharingen was stolen form germany!What are you talking about? If you can't understand German better stick to the official translation:



Anyone who cannot rise to the level of this outlook must reflect that
otherwise there would remain nothing else than to renounce the idea of
adopting any policy of alliances for the future. For if we cannot form
an alliance with England because she has robbed us of our colonies, or
with Italy because she has taken possession of South Tyrol, or with
Poland or Czechoslovakia, then there remains no other possibility of an
alliance in Europe except with France which, inter alia, has robbed us
of Alsace and Lorraine.

The Ripper
06-20-2010, 02:54 PM
My country? I am countryless. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/SFRYmap.PNG/800px-SFRYmap.PNG

So, now you are Yugoslav? :rolleyes:

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 02:57 PM
"They surely never were mentioned in any Dutch World of Warcraft fanzine"

LOL nice one ;) first german with humor evahhh :D
Listen, we can discuss this subject for days and days, the germans
have own versions of the truth. YES NO YES NO YES NO discussions are pointless.

And you Germans couldn't even conquer Rotterdam without bombing the city....The Dutch kicked your asses there! By cowardly methods
winning from a poor equiped and outnumbered army... please don't get me started german! Teutonic superiority my ass

Svanhild
06-20-2010, 03:21 PM
This statistics must be german then.. and you have never been to Altro-Adice ? I haven't met one human beein there who didn't speak Italian. It was readjustment of the frontiers of Italy girl:thumb001:
I'm afraid that you really think your hogwash contains any valuable truth. The statistics I've mentioned are neither German nor Italian, they are objective and not doubted by either side. And if you want to use the Italian form of Südtirol you should learn to write it correctly: It's Alto Adige and not "Altro-Adice".:rolleyes2: So much about your knowledge of facts.

As a matter of fact, I've been in Südtirol a few times. Visiting Meran and Brixen, driving over the Timmelsjoch and Jaufenpass and exploring the nature in Schnalstal and Eisacktal. I've seen a vast majority of German-speaking Tyroleans and some less Italians in the town areas around Meran.

Show me any reliable source for your claims of a Italian majority in Südtirol. There isn't a single one due to the fact that you're fantasizing and lying. I don't ascribe the act of lying to people easily. But in your case it's indicated.

So Please ;) I think you own me a nice plate of SAURKRAUT , love the stuff:D
If I stuff your mouth with Sauerkraut you'll have to shut the fuck up then. Sounds like a good idea.

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 04:09 PM
You people should go there and ask there, what they think..
You are a fanatic!!! and I need to explain myself about some facts ?
Sud-Tirol is Italian... ?the germans? there are ITALIANS!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??

I didn't say they didn't speak german ... but have been to Bolzano and I could speak freely with my countrymen. Didn't hear anti-italian things or such like you are claiming...

"If I stuff your mouth with Sauerkraut you'll have to shut the fuck up then. Sounds like a good idea"

Well... I don't eat with my mouth full, like you people:D
I don't insult someone if I disagree with someone... you just did

Watch this.... Alto-Adice ist ITALIEN!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON3ka5pqX8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjD9ywnhuFE&feature=related

Jarl
06-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Let's see if you are a liar or not:

Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
I should like to state here that I was one of those who, at the time when the fate of South Tyrol was



Where the fuck did he come into the equation??? ;)

Sud-Tirol and other myths. Wartheland as "German" gebiet??? ...blah blah - that's what it all is about

Jarl
06-20-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm afraid that you really think your hogwash contains any valuable truth. The statistics I've mentioned are neither German nor Italian, they are objective and not doubted by either side. And if you want to use the Italian form of Südtirol you should learn to write it correctly: It's Alto Adige and not "Altro-Adice".:rolleyes2: So much about your knowledge of facts.

As a matter of fact, I've been in Südtirol a few times. Visiting Meran and Brixen, driving over the Timmelsjoch and Jaufenpass and exploring the nature in Schnalstal and Eisacktal. I've seen a vast majority of German-speaking Tyroleans and some less Italians in the town areas around Meran.

Show me any reliable source for your claims of a Italian majority in Südtirol. There isn't a single one due to the fact that you're fantasizing and lying. I don't ascribe the act of lying to people easily. But in your case it's indicated.

If I stuff your mouth with Sauerkraut you'll have to shut the fuck up then. Sounds like a good idea.

Why such double standards? Pomerelia (West-Preussen) has never had a definite German majority. Neither did Silesia, particularly Upper Silesia. Greater Poland (Wartheland) has never been a German land...


So... why don't you take your own advice ... and "shut the fuck up"? hm? :)

Svanhild
06-20-2010, 07:46 PM
You people should go there and ask there, what they think..
Alright, go there and ask them. They like Italian heteronomy so much that they've bombed power lines and Italian infrastructure in the 60ies in their struggle for freedom. A majority of Südtirol wants the Wiederanschluss with Nordtirol and Österreich. http://www.zuerst.de/archives/129


You are a fanatic!!!
You're a supporter of foreign occupation. Tyroleans living in Südtirol are Tyroleans living in Italy but they aren't Italians. Don't play dumber as you are.

I didn't say they din't speak german ... but have been to Bolzano and I could speak freely with my countrymen.
With your countrymen, yes. But not with real Tyroleans. And some are multilingual.

Didn't hear anti-italian things or such like you are claiming...
Because they would talk about their anti-Italian opinion with Italians like you.

Jarl
06-20-2010, 07:49 PM
Here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Polska1912.jpg

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sobek/maps/posen.gif

http://a5.vox.com/6a00d4143f4d123c7f011017b51795860e-500pi

http://www.atlassen.info/atlassen/velhagen/andha06/picslarge/andha1914k047a.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2mdknkk.jpg

...this is how "German" these lands were. Despite:


- 100-150 years of forced germanisation,

- 100-150 years of forced mass settling of 100 000s of Germans,

- 50 years of expropriations and land theft by the German Colonial Comission,

- having been the craddle of Poland, a key province for 1000 years (Greater Poland)

- having been part of Poland for over 400 years (Pomerelia), and having fought the Teutonic Order to become a part of the Crown...




Using the term "Wartheland" invented during the Nazi Occupation - when some 200 000 Poles were displaced and expelled from Greater Poland into East, and 1000s were murdered in concentration camps or send as workforce to Germany is.... slightly insulting - are you aware of it?



You're a supporter of foreign occupation. Tyroleans living in Südtirol are Tyroleans living in Italy but they aren't Italians. Don't play dumber as you are.

You are supporter of foreign occupation too. You support the German occupation of Pomerelia (WestPreussen) after 1773 and 1795. Then after 1815. You support German occupation of Greater Poland (Posen) after 1815 and 1848. And you even use the occupational Nazi name for Greater Poland - "Wartheland". Anyway, these lands became occupied by Prussia NOT GERMANY.

ikki
06-20-2010, 08:07 PM
Nordicist federation :D

Jarl
06-20-2010, 08:11 PM
Here:


Poland X-XIII:

http://wyszogrod.bydgoszcz.pl/gfx/historia/b_rola2.jpg

End of XIII century

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Map_of_Poland_in_Przemys%C5%82_II_times.jpg

XIV century:

http://www.jura.pl/kultura_i_rozrywka/004%20kazimierz%20wielki.jpg

XV century:

http://www.zgapa.pl/zgapedia/data_pictures/_uploads_wiki/i/IRP_1466.PNG

XVI-XVIII century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1648.PNG


XIX century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Duchy_of_Warsaw_1809-1815.PNG




- Where was Pomerelia (Westpreussen) until XIX century?


- Where was Greater Poland (Posen) until XIX century?


- Why are you pretending they were German, or exclusively German, if they were not - neither ethnically, nor historically, politically or culturally for most of their history???





Germans came there as guests.

- They were granted priviledges, hosted and supported by Polish and Pomeranian nobility.

- They came there on the invitation of Polish and Pomeranian dukes, kings and magnates...

- They were allowed to settle in and found their own villages and communities.

- They were responsible and their allegiance was for over 400 years to the Crown of Poland, and the Polish administration - the king, the gentry, the local landowners and wojewodowie.



And it was the Polish landowners, nobles and magnates who administered Royal (becuase it was a part of the Crown of Poland) Prussia (renamed West-Preussen by Germans) until 1772 and 1795, ruling both the local Poles-Kashubians (who constituted unqestionable majority in XVIII/XIX and even as late as XXth century, after German mass-colonisation, kulturkampf and germanisation) and Germans-Dutchmen. Why are you trying to sell a different image of history?

Jarl
06-20-2010, 08:28 PM
A majority of Südtirol wants the Wiederanschluss with Nordtirol and Österreich. http://www.zuerst.de/archives/129

Why??? Because Sud-Tirol was acquired by the Habsburgs as a feudal fief. Just as Silesia was acquired by them from the Polish Piasts and Jagiellonians. It was an independent country carved out from Italy, not a German Gebiet.

But to a person advocating extreme irredentism - like you this does not matter. Jus as it does not matter that some other territories became brutally subjugated, occupied and forecefully germanised for centuries... just like Ost-Preussen, West-Preussen, Schlesien, and many other places.


Even if they were the craddle and a part of another state for some 1000 years only to become politically German as late as 1815 and 1848and Germans were always in minority (in spite of forced colnisation) - like in Greater Poland - you still claim these lands are..... German! And they you say it is "Wartheland"! Like the murderers that came in there in 1939...


How big a hypocrite one must be?!


You are the first one to point out anti-German bias in others, but also the first one to turn a blind eye on the injustice commited by the Germans. Don't expect others will let this obnoxious behaviour slip through...

Breedingvariety
06-20-2010, 08:30 PM
Who cares whether these lands were german. Poland is Germany's lebensraum throughout millennia and in to the future.

Tyrrhenoi
06-20-2010, 08:39 PM
Alright, go there and ask them. They like Italian heteronomy so much that they've bombed power lines and Italian infrastructure in the 60ies in their struggle for freedom.

Because they would talk about their anti-Italian opinion with Italians like you.

LOL:D How you make it sound like a red guerilla war against an evil empire.
I heard a comparison with ethnical purifications and such from your other nazi-friend. BULLSHIT:D

You are not living in this world, you sit behind a desk with your computer and judge another country because you went to Alto-Adige on vacation and met some german-speaking italians in Sud-Tirol. :D

By the way... the province of Trentino Alto-Adige was given full autonomy by Italy in 2001. They are ALREADY FREE you ignorant person!

Zyklop
06-20-2010, 08:41 PM
The Polish situation actually always was one comparable to that of a little child complaining it's not allowed to cross the street on its own by their overseers (Russia + Germany). Hardly can be compared with the clash of cultures in South Tyrol.

manu
06-20-2010, 08:56 PM
Sudtirol has never been Italian and will never be. Injustice never expires.
the Ladin speakers are italians and they are indigenous of South Tyrol.
as for the "Sudtirol has never been italian" thing if you look at placenames like "Welschnofen" you can see that pockets of romance speaking areas lasted as late as XIV century. now if they converted to the german language they are germans, no doubt about it, but it's safe to say the area of the province of Bozen (or part of it) had a romance speaking past.

Jarl
06-20-2010, 11:38 PM
The Polish situation actually always was one comparable to that of a little child complaining it's not allowed to cross the street on its own by their overseers (Russia + Germany). Hardly can be compared with the clash of cultures in South Tyrol.


What overseer? What is Germany? An entity that arose in 1871 united by Prussian Slavo-Germanic bayonets. It never existed before.... So what are you talking about?

Germans living in Poland for centuries and being rightful citizens on Polish soil never caused any problems. It was the Prussian junkry who suddenly introduced all the hatred and kulturkampf dividing the people into two camps. When Poland lost its independence and particularly after Germany's re-unification, Prussian junkers felt they could do whatever they wanted... germanise some people, expropriate and expel others, take over the whole country. Erase the culture, revise the history completely and in a fashion that would justify their occupation and take-over.

No. It is not about "a little child complaining". It is about one of Europe's largest nations that was robbed of its independence, robbed of its soil, and forced to put up with germanisation and cultural ostracism for some 50-150 years.



the Ladin speakers are italians and they are indigenous of South Tyrol.
as for the "Sudtirol has never been italian" thing if you look at placenames like "Welschnofen" you can see that pockets of romance speaking areas lasted as late as XIV century. now if they converted to the german language they are germans, no doubt about it, but it's safe to say the area of the province of Bozen (or part of it) had a romance speaking past.

That is the case with many other lands that were historically German. Silesia and Pomerania got germanised to various degrees too. However, some individuals will never be able to grasp it. Even if Sudtirol was 80% Italian they would probably still claim it is German... Now you wonder why ppl get pissed off with certain Germans?

The Lawspeaker
06-20-2010, 11:53 PM
Can someone split this thread, please ?
Thank you.

spearofperun
06-20-2010, 11:59 PM
How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4783/grossdeutschland.png

The political system? A form of immediate democracy with pro-nation, pro-German leadership.

how about this before germans cause WWIII you first deal with all the immigrant shits you have running around your country and then focus on your imperialistic ideals.

spearofperun
06-21-2010, 12:00 AM
You people should go there and ask there, what they think..
You are a fanatic!!! and I need to explain myself about some facts ?
Sud-Tirol is Italian... ?the germans? there are ITALIANS!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??

I didn't say they didn't speak german ... but have been to Bolzano and I could speak freely with my countrymen. Didn't hear anti-italian things or such like you are claiming...

"If I stuff your mouth with Sauerkraut you'll have to shut the fuck up then. Sounds like a good idea"

Well... I don't eat with my mouth full, like you people:D
I don't insult someone if I disagree with someone... you just did

Watch this.... Alto-Adice ist ITALIEN!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gON3ka5pqX8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjD9ywnhuFE&feature=related

best thing to do is deport all the minorities. we had danubian swabians after WWII all out. eve though they werent the main problem and huns should of gone first well its a start. only way you are going to move towards better relations is if no minorities. or at least no bad minorities.

Jarl
06-21-2010, 12:05 AM
You are a fanatic!!! and I need to explain myself about some facts ?
Sud-Tirol is Italian... ?the germans? there are ITALIANS!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??

LOL! I think you made an important discovery there, my Roman friend :)


Still amazed? Well this IS PRECISELY what they preach:


How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4783/grossdeutschland.png
QUOTE]


There is only irredentism and imperialism. France, Italy, Poland, Czech Rep, Russia and everyone should give in. Their claims are irrelevant, their cause is meaningless and does not matter. No attempt to evaluate the history. No need to look at the problem from the other side. No criticism. No good will whatsoever. Just arrogance, arrogance and complete blindness to the fate of other, neighbouring nations.

When the history and demographics is partly on their side, they will point it out, like in the case of Sud-Tirol. When it is not, like in the case of Greater Poland, they will still stick to "Wartheland" anyway... whatever the means... the aim is what matters.

Sud-Tirol should be German - coz it has German majority... but Greater Poland and Pomerelia should also have been German even though they did not have German majority. Like you see, they are not fanatics, they are arrogant hypocrites with no good will for dialogue...


how about this before germans cause WWIII you first deal with all the immigrant shits you have running around your country and then focus on your imperialistic ideals.

Country run on Russian gas... Now, I'd love to see them making a claim on Kaliningrad ;)

When I see the hateful irrendentism and selfish ignorance like this, Im really becoming weary of whether Europe can ever be "preserved" or live in peace...

Tyrrhenoi
06-21-2010, 01:17 PM
Sud-Tirol should be German - coz it has German majority... but Greater Poland and Pomerelia should also have been German even though they did not have German majority. Like you see, they are not fanatics, they are arrogant hypocrites with no good will for dialogue...


peace...

You are right, if they hadn't been so arrogant I would acknowledge that sud-tirol should have been returned to Austria (not germany). By their argressive tone of dabate and insults, I made up my mind and just said NO!!!!

Anyhow Sud-Tirol governs itself and the Italians and Germans are living side to side in peace( like my garbage and progapanga youtube clips pointed out).
A few Austrians there are still unhappy, the austrian majority there have their own political party who is in charge now.

Svanhild
06-21-2010, 02:55 PM
Why??? Because Sud-Tirol was acquired by the Habsburgs as a feudal fief...It was an independent country carved out from Italy, not a German Gebiet.
Again that's ridiculous nonsense far away from reality. Entire Tirol was colonised by the Germanic tribe of the Bajuvarians around 500 AD from the north. After the decay of the Roman Empire that region was almost empty and abandoned. From that point in history up to this very day there's a German majority by ethnicity, culture and language in Tirol, including Südtirol. Pardon my french, but claiming anything else is just mental diarrhea. Current Südtirol isn't congruent with Trienttirol.



You are not living in this world, you sit behind a desk with your computer and judge another country because you went to Alto-Adige on vacation and met some german-speaking italians in Sud-Tirol. :D
Hard to find words for such a serious case of self-chosen asininity. Just ask your German-speaking Italians if they consider themselves as Italians. They are first and foremost Tyroleans and thus part of Austria. Italians in Südtirol who speak Italian or German as a second language are the clear minority. Every stat, every study, every poll proves it. And, more importantly, reality proves it as well. Also read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italianization_of_South_Tyrol



By the way... the province of Trentino Alto-Adige was given full autonomy by Italy in 2001. They are ALREADY FREE you ignorant person!
So Südtirol is a sovereign country? Who are you trying to fool?

the Ladin speakers are italians and they are indigenous of South Tyrol.
Ladins make up less than 5% of Südtirol and they don't regard themselves as Italians.

best thing to do is deport all the minorities.
That's a good idea. Deporting all minorities. So the Italian minority in Südtirol has to leave as they only make up ~25% of the people there. :wink http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proporzionale_etnica

Tyrrhenoi
06-21-2010, 03:26 PM
So Südtirol is a sovereign country? Who are you trying to fool?

That's a good idea. Deporting all minorities. So the Italian minority in Südtirol has to leave as they only make up ~25% of the people there. :wink http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proporzionale_etnica


Oh my god... here we go again..:rolleyes:

They are autonomous not sovereign, they pay taxes to Rome! I presume you think this is a very bad thing :p Autonomous as they rule their own democratic administration.

Yes... I agree with the statistics, this does not mean that the sud-tirol soil doesn't belong to Italy.

Deporting all minorities... deporting.. deporting.. mmm where did I heard that word before mmm:rolleyes2:... Nazi-Germany mmm.. yes!

Swanhild... eeh.. are you always in war-mode? I mean, there are such beautiful things in live ! Cultures (in this case the south and the north) can learn a great deal form each other. :thumb001:

Don't worry, be happy :)

Groenewolf
06-21-2010, 03:47 PM
Even your beloved leader said in "Mein Kampf" : Adolf claimed that Germans were just a small and irrelevant minority in Southern Tyrol (this definition including also Trentino) and he acknowledged the German portion of Southern Tyrol as a permanent possession of Italy.

First of all if you actually read the quotation from Mein Kampf that has been posted in this tread you should have read that the corporal did not wanted to wage a military war to liberate/seize S-Tyrol. However he did expres the wish to be part of a 'parliamentarian battalion' to regain it trough diplomatic means.

And that he in the end acknowledged the power of Rome over S-Tyrol was more of sacrifice to gain the alliance of the Duce and being capable of caring out the Ansluss. :coffee:

Murphy
06-21-2010, 03:51 PM
How do you see your country, ideally?

Catholic.

Jarl
06-21-2010, 08:14 PM
Oh my god... here we go again..:rolleyes:

They are autonomous not sovereign, they pay taxes to Rome! I presume you think this is a very bad thing :p Autonomous as they rule their own democratic administration.

Yes... I agree with the statistics, this does not mean that the sud-tirol soil doesn't belong to Italy.

Deporting all minorities... deporting.. deporting.. mmm where did I heard that word before mmm:rolleyes2:... Nazi-Germany mmm.. yes!

Exactly! That is the single weirdest thing in here which I cannot comprehend...

I have no problem with Poles living in Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus and Ukraine as long as they have equal chances, schools and rigths of an ordinary citizen, I am ok with that.

I understand that although those lands were Polish politically for some 500-700 years, Poles ultimately came there as guests, settlers. And I understand that these lands have much Polish heritage no doubts about that... But I ALSO understand that they have other, Ukrainian or Lithuanian heritage and after some 500-700 years of Polish domination those nations have every right to live independently in their own country.

I do not want to "ideally" see my nation as a big, imperial one if the cost means opressing and up-rooting other nations. I do not want to see polonisation of Belarusians or Ukrainians, nor anything done against their will. I want them as they are, our neighbours, with their language and with their unique culture which has every right to be preserved - just like ours. For this I dont need more deportations, more enmity and more land... For what? For the cost of hurting yet more human beings, a whole nation? This is a ridiculous nonsense. A dead end.



Why do some people don't want to understand this? Why do people can't live peacefully side by side? Do we really need deporations, wars, border shifts, genocide? Is this really what makes us happy and our nation "ideal"??? Crude force, barbaric strength and regaining every single flipping land that our nation ever made a claim to...


Swanhild... eeh.. are you always in war-mode? I mean, there are such beautiful things in live ! Cultures (in this case the south and the north) can learn a great deal form each other. :thumb001:

Don't worry, be happy :)

Yes. But don't be deluded. Certain people here have no or little interest in other Europeam cultures. They've already pre-assumed in their mind they are meaningless. I wrote about crimes commited in East Prussia, I wrote about expulsions of Germans - did anyone took interest? One person did... Why? Because that's precisely because of what you said: the "war-mode", the anti-dialogue mode.


Catholic.

This is the doctrine. If you are a believer, then you are a Catholic first. And only then a Pole, Irishman or a Roman. This is natural and stems directly from one's accepted beliefs and values. But of course two Polish Catholics are on avergae still closer to each other than to a Catholic Italian ;)

Jarl
06-21-2010, 08:41 PM
Again that's ridiculous nonsense far away from reality. Entire Tirol was colonised by the Germanic tribe of the Bajuvarians around 500 AD from the north.

I find it nonsensical that you dwell in a fantastic world of your own imagination. Tirol was a Roman province of Rhaetia and Noricum. Rhaeto-Romance languages were once spoken on those territories. Alemmanni took most of Rhaetia, Bajuvarians settled in Bavaria and Northern Tirol. However the Latin-speaking population was not displaced entirely. Austria was settled by Avars and Slavs, and the Slavic state of Carantania was established there.

And Tyroleans had strong independence movements. They fought against Bavaria in XIX century... Areas like Trentino and Rovereto had a substantial Italian population consituting majority in Southern Tirol. Many Italian patriots that supported Italian independence movement came from Trentino province. In XIX century they wanted to be re-united with the rest of Italy.

Parts of Tirol with German-majority had to stay in Italy because of: "Italy's border was pushed northward to the strategically important Alpine water divide, including present day-South Tyrol with its large German-speaking majority. The northern part of Tyrol was retained by the First Austrian Republic."



You claim Tirol on the basis of ethnic majority and historical belonging to Germanic states... why do you then claim Greater Poland? And use the Nazi term "Wartheland"? You claim Sud-Tirol on the grounds of German-majority, but you do not claim Southern Schleswig - although it also has parts of German majority... and yet you claim Pomorze (WestPreussen) and Greater Poland even though they never had German majority. Why don't you claim Veneto and Venice then? Or Hungary and whole Czech Rep?


So my request is - please do not pretend it's is only about Sud-Tirol. It is about your attitude. My question is - why are you a hypocrite using double standards to support your claim???


You are right, if they hadn't been so arrogant I would acknowledge that sud-tirol should have been returned to Austria (not germany). By their argressive tone of dabate and insults, I made up my mind and just said NO!!!!

See it yourself now? Its about the obnoxious attitude, blind to any form of dialgue...


Anyhow Sud-Tirol governs itself and the Italians and Germans are living side to side in peace( like my garbage and progapanga youtube clips pointed out).
A few Austrians there are still unhappy, the austrian majority there have their own political party who is in charge now.

Everything that stands in the way of Gross Deutschland is garbage and propaganda - no matter is it with an ethnic majority or not ;)

manu
06-21-2010, 08:50 PM
Ladins make up less than 5% of Südtirol and they don't regard themselves as Italians.
[/url]
as much as Catalans don't regard themselves as Spaniards but they are still Iberians, Ladins are an Italic population if not italian. the Ladin language is spoken by 700-800.000 people in Friuli, Trentino and Veneto.
that Polako guy from Biodiversity.com posted a study where they also clustered genetically with Italians as further south as Brescia and Verona. considering them as something different from Italians is a straw man argument.

Óttar
06-21-2010, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=Svanhild;226698]How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.

As someone with great grandparents from Elsass-Lothringen, why does the map not bring back Elsass-Lothringen to the Heimat? :confused:

Jarl
06-21-2010, 09:17 PM
Pardon my french, but claiming anything else is just mental diarrhea. Current Südtirol isn't congruent with Trienttirol.

"Shut the fuck up", "garbage and propaganda", "mental diarrhea".... Is that it? Are these your arguments???


Sud-Tirol and Trentino was a part of the same disputed province. Just like Alsace-Lorraine and Schleswig-Holstein. Austria lost the war and the areas were divided, but not in their favour. This is not entirely just, but neither was theAustrian occupation of ethnic Italian provinces of Trentino and Veneto. If setting the border along the mountain divide meant strategically safe indepedent Italy free from Austrian Imperialism, then this is the price Austria had to pay for her historical domination over Northern Italy, which lasted for long centuries. And the Germans were not expelled, they are living there now and are still in majority and have autonomy - so where is the issue? Noone wants to de-germanise Sud-Tirol...


Read about Greater Poland - craddle and part of Poland from XI to XIX century. Occupied by Prussia in 1815, scrapped of autonomy in 1848, and forcefully occupied and germanised after 1871. Where Germans had never been in majority... is this also German? Huh?


Maybe it is not me or our Italian friend here who are having problems. Maybe its you claiming Greater Poland as "Wartheland", and then arguing for German Sud-Tirol on grounds of ethnic majority, that is a mental diarrhea (or bipolar disorder)?

Cato
06-21-2010, 10:06 PM
The best there was, is, and ever shall be- the tired old homelands in the Old Country, fighting over the same old lands, arguing over which king or queen or emperor to bow to, or which Christ to adore, (Catholic or Protestant or none at all), can take a back seat to the Men of the Westernesse.

The odd thing is thus: the Euros like to bash their American kin for being what they, in the ancestral lands, divided by belief and caste and creed and kin and political affiliation and religion, never could be: free. And, now that Europa is free (after the anti-tyrant struggle of the WW2), it's going down the tubes in a way faster than the U.S. ever could (i.e. fellows like Zundel can, here, speak their mind and not be jailed if you want an example).

spearofperun
06-22-2010, 02:02 AM
Again that's ridiculous nonsense far away from reality. Entire Tirol was colonised by the Germanic tribe of the Bajuvarians around 500 AD from the north. After the decay of the Roman Empire that region was almost empty and abandoned. From that point in history up to this very day there's a German majority by ethnicity, culture and language in Tirol, including Südtirol. Pardon my french, but claiming anything else is just mental diarrhea. Current Südtirol isn't congruent with Trienttirol.


Hard to find words for such a serious case of self-chosen asininity. Just ask your German-speaking Italians if they consider themselves as Italians. They are first and foremost Tyroleans and thus part of Austria. Italians in Südtirol who speak Italian or German as a second language are the clear minority. Every stat, every study, every poll proves it. And, more importantly, reality proves it as well. Also read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italianization_of_South_Tyrol


So Südtirol is a sovereign country? Who are you trying to fool?

Ladins make up less than 5% of Südtirol and they don't regard themselves as Italians.

That's a good idea. Deporting all minorities. So the Italian minority in Südtirol has to leave as they only make up ~25% of the people there. :wink http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proporzionale_etnica

jsut sayign germans have these massive imperialisitic goals yet if the turks arent dealt with soon germany will be a second turkey and your people will go extinct not lose a few territories.

Murphy
06-22-2010, 04:25 PM
This is the doctrine. If you are a believer, then you are a Catholic first. And only then a Pole, Irishman or a Roman. This is natural and stems directly from one's accepted beliefs and values.

Exactly, Jarl. And I know a lot of people cannot understand this, why we as Catholics put the Faith and the Church before all else. I say this is because of modern society and the "culture of now!". As Catholics we do not look to yesterday or today, we look to tomorrow and the health of our immortal soul. Nations will rise and fall, cultures will flourish and then perish.. the soul will last forever.

One of the greatest tragedies of today is that man has forgotten this.. that time is a finite thing and all things must end.


But of course two Polish Catholics are on avergae still closer to each other than to a Catholic Italian ;)

Of course, which is exactly why I would say, for lack of a better word in mind, I am a "nationalist". For the faith to flourish for the good of the family, it must exist within a safe and bountiful cultural sphere. Such cultural harmony can only survive in a nation that is not ravaged by multiculturalism (outside of major cities, where such multiculturalism is natural), materialism, secularism, capitalism and communism etc., etc., and it's why I firmly believe the state's duty is to the family and not vice versa.

Arrow Cross
06-22-2010, 06:14 PM
Deporting all minorities... deporting.. deporting.. mmm where did I heard that word before mmm:rolleyes2:... Nazi-Germany mmm.. yes!
Ethnic Minority Deportation For Dummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Jarl
06-22-2010, 06:34 PM
Ethnic Minority Deportation For Dummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

And here ethnic majority deportation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartheland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Government


Genocide and wiping out whole nations for dummies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Tyrrhenoi
06-22-2010, 07:49 PM
Ethnic Minority Deportation For Dummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Poor poor germans :cry

LoL I saw that even the supertolerant and peacefull nation of the Netherlands deported the germans after the war.
Even them! Imagine that ! :coffee:

Arrow Cross: The reason why for dummy's dummy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_atrocities


http://wassenaarexpat.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/rotterdam.jpg

And here's one of the reason's for the deportation of thsssee germanssss by the Dutch

Svanhild
06-22-2010, 09:32 PM
As someone with great grandparents from Elsass-Lothringen, why does the map not bring back Elsass-Lothringen to the Heimat? :confused:
I'm afraid that the creator of the map forgot to color the region grey. :wink Elsass-Lothringen is mentioned and marked on the map hence I think that it's just a mistake.

The Lawspeaker
06-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Poor poor germans :cry

LoL I saw that even the supertolerant and peacefull nation of the Netherlands deported the germans after the war.
Even them! Imagine that ! :coffee:


You, my dear sir, are a mere hyphenated Dutchman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphenated_American).:coffee:

Fact is even that the Rotterdam Blitz wasn't even a war crime. Those responsible for it were not prosecuted for it after the war.. as guess what:

Rotterdam was not an open city but it was being defending by our Royal Marines who royally kicked German ass at Waalhaven and the bridges across the Meuse but that aside. And as such it was a legitimate military target. The air raid may have been reprehensible but it wasn't a war crime or an atrocity.

spearofperun
06-22-2010, 11:37 PM
Ethnic Minority Deportation For Dummies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

yes great wasnt it?? shame you hun pigs didnt go from vojvodina as well

poiuytrewq0987
06-22-2010, 11:39 PM
yes great wasnt it?? shame you hun pigs didnt go from vojvodina as well

What a joke, you don't even live in Europe.

Jarl
06-23-2010, 12:09 AM
Fact is even that the Rotterdam Blitz wasn't even a war crime.



:rolleyes: ...




Schmidt used the threat of destruction of the city to attempt to force Colonel Scharroo to surrender the city without a fight. In total, 1,150 x 50 kg (110 lb) and 158 x 250 kg (550 lb) bombs were dropped. Many of these hit and ignited homes, churches, stores, warehouses and schools resulting in uncontrollable fires in the city centre.[6][40][41][28][31][42][43][44]

Although exact numbers are not known, nearly 1000 people were killed and 85,000 made homeless.[46] Around 2.6 square kilometres (1 square mile) of the city was almost levelled. 24,978 homes, 24 churches, 2,320 stores, 775 warehouses and 62 schools were destroyed.[47]




Rotterdam was (...) legitimate military target.

The air raid wasn't a war crime or an atrocity.

No comment.

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 01:03 AM
And what was Colonel Scharroo ? Exactly. He was the local military commander. Do you know the definition of an open city (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/open+city) ?


Main Entry: open city
Function: noun
Date: 1914
: a city that is not occupied or defended by military forces and that is not allowed to be bombed under international law


Was Rotterdam an open city.. yes or no ? If it was: why was the place defended by the Dutch Royal Marines ?

spearofperun
06-23-2010, 01:56 AM
What a joke, you don't even live in Europe.

at least i know what i am unlike you

poiuytrewq0987
06-23-2010, 01:59 AM
at least i know what i am unlike you

I know what I am -- nice try. :thumb001:

spearofperun
06-23-2010, 02:04 AM
I know what I am -- nice try. :thumb001:

sure you do first you are bulgarian then serbian now macedonian and all within a matter of 2 weeks or what maybe??? maybe next month you gonna be a gypsy????

Don
06-23-2010, 02:24 AM
sure you do first you are bulgarian then serbian now macedonian and all within a matter of 2 weeks or what maybe??? maybe next month you gonna be a gypsy????

When I entered this forum first time I remember his name was Void and he was from United States of America.
Now I have lost the path of his changes of name and nationality.

I usually don't have sympathy for this kind of people.
Changing traits often imply weakness in their loyalties and in their codes of restriction of behaviours as well.

With this case, my animadversion toward these profiles have not fooled or failed me.

Bridie
06-23-2010, 02:51 AM
The best there was, is, and ever shall be- the tired old homelands in the Old Country, fighting over the same old lands, arguing over which king or queen or emperor to bow to, or which Christ to adore, (Catholic or Protestant or none at all), can take a back seat to the Men of the Westernesse.

The odd thing is thus: the Euros like to bash their American kin for being what they, in the ancestral lands, divided by belief and caste and creed and kin and political affiliation and religion, never could be: free. And, now that Europa is free (after the anti-tyrant struggle of the WW2), it's going down the tubes in a way faster than the U.S. ever could (i.e. fellows like Zundel can, here, speak their mind and not be jailed if you want an example).That has got to be just about the most ridiculous drivel I've ever read.



The odd thing is thus: the Euros like to bash their American kin for being what they, in the ancestral lands, divided by belief and caste and creed and kin and political affiliation and religion, never could be: free.
Euros like to bash everyone who is culturally different to themselves. Haven't you noticed? :D I suppose it almost becomes necessary for self-preservation in a competitive/insecure environment. So it's exactly because Americans are not kin that they are bashed. Same goes for all of the rest of us.

Personally, I don't care, I don't play those games.

Secondly, Americans are not and never have been free. You must be joking. That was the ideal in the early days of North American colonisation, but it was never actualised. I can't believe that US people are still being suckered into believing that they are free or that they live in a "free country". The rest of the world does not see you lot as a "free" people. Quite the opposite.

Regarding Europe "going down the tubes", I think it's pretty much on par with the US as well as other first world countries, to be honest. It's called "modernisation". If you think that the US is doing alright, then you need to pay less attention to US media, big business and your educational system and have a look at yourselves and your country from the outside. A fresh pair of eyes will reveal all.

Radojica
06-23-2010, 03:01 AM
When I entered this forum first time I remember his name was Void and he was from United States of America.
Now I have lost the path of his changes of name and nationality.

I usually don't have sympathy for this kind of people.
Changing traits often imply weakness in their loyalties and in their codes of restriction of behaviours as well.

With this case, my animadversion toward these profiles have not fooled or failed me.

He is Bulgarian who love and respect other South Slavic nations. For you that is maybe odd, but knowing the fact that Bulgaria almost entered SFRJ he is feeling Yugo-nostalgic. I don't agree with that, but even today you have hundred of thousands of people from ex-Yu who are feeling Yugoslavian even 20 years after disintegration of the state. Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was once a great country and no matter we were in SE Europe, people here were living better than people in most of the Europe. I remember that Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Polish, Czechs and all other nations from Eastern Europe were coming here to work, SFRJ was for them Western Europe, even for your Spain before you entered EU (maybe i am wrong here, but don't mind me). Great country destroyed by mad people. And knowing the fact that the most leaders of former Yugoslavian countries are now licking the asses of politicians from EU to enter it makes the whole story tragy-comical. Many don't like that fact, but that is true.

Oh. aside note:

http://zastavanacionale.com/images/heritage/yugo_01.jpg

http://mitjakandare.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/yugo-skala.jpg

Yugo still live, even as car brand :p

Cato
06-23-2010, 04:09 AM
That has got to be just about the most ridiculous drivel I've ever read.

As I've told others before, blow it out your ass. Do you think I give a fart in a jar about what you think regarding what I believe?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/mungchamp/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg

Bridie
06-23-2010, 04:12 AM
As I've told others before, blow it out your ass. Do you think I give a fart in a jar about what you think regarding what I believe?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/mungchamp/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpgSuch a reaction would suggest that you do.

Cato
06-23-2010, 04:16 AM
Such a reaction would suggest that you do.

http://animoscrypt.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/hahaha-lulz.jpg

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 07:37 AM
Do you know the definition of an open city (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/open+city) ?

Schmidt used the threat of destruction of the city to attempt to force Colonel Scharroo to surrender the city without a fight. Rotterdam, the largest industrial target in the Netherlands and of major strategic importance to the Germans, was to be bombed. Scharroo refused and stretched out negotiations. The start of the air raid had been set for 13:20 [Dutch time, MET – 1 hr 40].

Schmidt postponed a second ultimatum to 16:20. However, just as the Dutch negotiator was crossing the Willemsbrug to relay this information, the drone of bombers was heard: a total of 90 bombers from Kampfgeschwader 54 (54th Bomber Regiment) were sent over the city.

They bombed the city before an ultimatum of surrender! The Dutch refused to surrender to the 1st ultimatum because the source of the letter (dirty piece of paper) was not know. It was NOT signed ! On the bottom of the letter was written :" the commander of the german forces".

This fact still is considered a warcrime by many of YOUR countrymen!


And what was Colonel Scharroo ? Exactly. He was the local military commander

Colonel Scharoo was commander of an genius and transport unit!!! He was a paper pusher! He had been involved in the administration of the construction of the Olympic Stadium and sat in the organization commitee the 1928 Olympic Games in Amsterdam. LoL :D

His forces were not equiped for war, they had a few rifles and they used them. He had no commandstaff and (ongetrainde gevechtstroepen) troops non-trained for fighting! The dutch marines you mentioned were SAILORS!!!!



a hypernated dutchman ?

And because I was born in Italy, I have no right to speak about it?
Man, man ... ga fietsen kerl! Meen ik serieus!

Jarl
06-23-2010, 08:02 AM
This fact still is considered a warcrime by many of YOUR countrymen!

Not by Asega though! ;) And we all know why...



...for the very same reason same he thanks every post of Svahild and Zyklop, and sides with them on every issue. A "Dutch" neo-German convertite :)

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Schmidt used the threat of destruction of the city to attempt to force Colonel Scharroo to surrender the city without a fight. Rotterdam, the largest industrial target in the Netherlands and of major strategic importance to the Germans, was to be bombed. Scharroo refused and stretched out negotiations. The start of the air raid had been set for 13:20 [Dutch time, MET – 1 hr 40].

Schmidt postponed a second ultimatum to 16:20. However, just as the Dutch negotiator was crossing the Willemsbrug to relay this information, the drone of bombers was heard: a total of 90 bombers from Kampfgeschwader 54 (54th Bomber Regiment) were sent over the city.

They bombed the city before an ultimatum of surrender! The Dutch refused to surrender to the 1st ultimatum because the source of the letter (dirty piece of paper) was not know. It was NOT signed ! On the bottom of the letter was written :" the commander of the german forces".

This fact still is considered a warcrime by many of YOUR countrymen!



Colonel Scharoo was commander of an genius and transport unit!!! He was a paper pusher! He had been involved in the administration of the construction of the Olympic Stadium and sat in the organization commitee the 1928 Olympic Games in Amsterdam.

His forces were not equiped for war, they had a few rifles and they used them. He had no commandstaff and (ongetrainde gevechtstroepen) troops non-trained for fighting! The dutch marines you mentioned were SAILORS!!!!




And because I was born in Italy, I have no right to speak about it?
Man, man ... ga fietsen kerl! Meen ik serieus!

The Marines and navy miliciens

The Dutch Marines Corps - about 1,500 men strong in May 1940 - was the only professional fighting outfit in the entire Dutch army. All ranks were professional soldiers and recruits received thorough training before they were even fully admitted to the Corps. The Corps had a history that went back to 1665. Marines had been involved in many of the historical navy battles over the centuries.
Originally the Corps had been founded to facilitate the larger navy ships with professional deck soldiers, which were of paramount importance during close combat situations in ancient navy battles. Gradually the Corps had grown into a more true soldiering task, when the Corps got more involved in policing duties in the Dutch Colonies. Especially the Netherlands East Indies required much assistance from the army (during the 19th century the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army - or KNIL - was founded) and navy. The Marines, being the most professional outfit in the Dutch army, were often required to handle the hottest patatoes in the colonies.
During the interbellum the Corps had been decreased in strength, but still at 10 May 1940 about 1,500 of them were still around. About half that strength was in the homeland when the Germans invaded. Their principale base was Rotterdam, with a small garisson in Hook of Holland too. Altogether about 500 Marines occupied the barracks in both Rotterdam (about 450) and the Hook (about 60). Smaller garissons were present in the navy ports of Amsterdam, Den Helder and Flushing.
The Marines contributed considerably during the battle in the Netherlands. In Rotterdam they were in the core of the events, battling around the Meuze bridges in the city heart. There they would gain themselves a true name, amongst their regular army comrades but also among the opponents. In Hook of Holland they got involved in fights with concentrations of mis-dropped airlanding troops. At Flushing they would get little involved and in Den Helder and Amsterdam not at all, for no enemy would appear at those locations. In total 18 Marines would get killed, all in Rotterdam.
Quite a number of Marines escaped the capitulation, mainly due to ship assignments or stationing in the West or East (colonies). Members of these surviving units would see battle in the Pacafic in particular. Quite a number perished during the battle in the Javasea, on board the Dutch cruisers. Among them the 1st Lieutenant and son of the Corps commander, Colonel von Frytag Drabbe.
The Dutch also drafted amongst the Marines when air-gunners were much needed in the Dutch 320 RAF squadron (that mainly flew Hudson and Mitchell bombers). A few dozen would serve the RAF from that moment on and quite a few of them pay the highest price during the many missions 320 Dutch squadron flew.
The navy also had quite a contingent of sea miliciens. Those were navy soldiers were general fighting or fighting support functions on board ships and in port defences. These were conscripts like the regular army. They were also represented in the four aforementioned navy ports: Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Den Helder and Flushing.
One of the milicien schools was situated in Rotterdam. It got heavily involved in the fighting around the river. The company lost 6 men KIA during those fights. Elements of the school company would distinguish themselves during some of the fiercest fights around the bridges in the morning of the 10th.
Last but not least elements of the navy coastal artillery - e.g. the navy port artillery - manned quite a number of navy batteries. These batteries were usually the minor calibre guns of 3,7 cm, 4,7 cm and 7,5 cm that were positioned around the entrances of navy ports. But also the fortresses at both sides of the Enclosure Dike (Afsluitdijk) were fitted with some navy guns. At Hook of Holland these batteries really came into actions against some German intruders. Elsewhere - with exception of one battery crew at Kornwerderzand - these coastal and port defences saw no action.

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 08:59 AM
The Marines and navy miliciens

professional fighting outfit in the entire Dutch army.

De Nederlandse Mariniers:

Traditionally consists largely of the Marine Corps infantrymen serving on warships or deployed on the border between land and water. Although the corps since the 90ies is being increasingly deployed for crisis missions far inland.

Yes on ships..:D You think the Dutch were prepared for an attack on Rotterdam?

They were heroes nevertheless

Groenewolf
06-23-2010, 09:11 AM
They bombed the city before an ultimatum of surrender! The Dutch refused to surrender to the 1st ultimatum because the source of the letter (dirty piece of paper) was not know. It was NOT signed ! On the bottom of the letter was written :" the commander of the german forces".

And the German commander did not know that the bombers where already on there way so that the more correct ultimatum was delivered to late.


This fact still is considered a warcrime by many of YOUR countrymen!

So many things are considered war crimes. It is only because a treat was issued that the same thing would happen with other cities that it could be considered a war crime under international law. The opinion of most Dutch would be irrelevant before a war-crime tribunal if said treat was not issued.


Colonel Scharoo was commander of an genius and transport unit!!! He was a paper pusher!

He did give a good fight in Rotterdam for a mere paper pusher.


His forces were not equiped for war, they had a few rifles and they used them. He had no commandstaff and (ongetrainde gevechtstroepen) troops non-trained for fighting! The dutch marines you mentioned were SAILORS!!!!

Who where involved in combat operation. And still give a hard fight. And practically every source mention the involvement of marines in the fighting. And Winkelman agreed with Scharoo that Rotterdam was well defended, pretty weird phrasing if there only some paper pushers and untrained troops there.

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 09:18 AM
And the German commander did not know that the bombers where already on there way so that the more correct ultimatum was delivered to late.

The order came from Germany...nevertheless there was no communication betweer headquarters by the Germans? Some speculate that the order came from Herman Goring himself, Rotterdam needed to be decimated!




The opinion of most Dutch would be irrelevant before a war-crime tribunal if said treat was not issued.
He did give a good fight in Rotterdam for a mere paper pusher.


I agree...
accoord!

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 09:32 AM
De Nederlandse Mariniers:

Traditionally consists largely of the Marine Corps infantrymen serving on warships or deployed on the border between land and water. Although the corps since the 90ies is being increasingly deployed for crisis missions far inland.

Yes on ships..:D You think the Dutch were prepared for an attack on Rotterdam?

They were heroes nevertheless

No,Holland was as in WW1 neutral

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 09:34 AM
No,Holland was as in WW1 neutral

Idd

Murphy
06-23-2010, 09:36 AM
:yawnee20:!

Groenewolf
06-23-2010, 09:39 AM
The order came from Germany...nevertheless there was no communication betweer headquarters by the Germans? Some speculate that the order came from Herman Goring himself, Rotterdam needed to be decimated!

The bombers left early, because of this the local commander was unprepared to make the last-minute call-off sign. This was the reason the bombings happened even when the second ultimatum was under way. And speculations are all nice and well, but they help little in debates such as these.

The problem is that the bombing of Rotterdam alone can not be considered a war crime. It is only in the larger context of the issued treat that the same would happen with other cities that it could be arguably be considered as such. But nobody was prosecuted for it, because Rotterdam (just as Stalingrad) could be considered a military target and hence the bombing of it was not a war crime.

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 09:44 AM
HUH?:eek: Although the corps since the 90ies is being increasingly deployed for crisis missions far inland.

1990 - till now

http://www.worldwar-2.net/casualties/world-war-2-casualties-index.htm

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 09:46 AM
:yawnee20:!

Stop yawning Vatican rat.:p

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 09:47 AM
And speculations are all nice and well, but they help little in debates such as these.

Does it help that a prominent member of this forum (from Holland) called me a hyphenated dutchman?:rolleyes: I think I am well contributing member of the Dutch society:( Relatives of my fought the germans in WWII!

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 09:52 AM
A hyphenated Dutchman in the sense that you seem to have a feeling of nationalism for some other country other then our own (like for instance the immigrants here only support their own country) but still support your other country in the occupation of a minority elsewhere. A minority belonging to a group of people that happen to be related (as Germans are related to Dutch) to the Dutch.

And.. I am not from Holland by the way. Look at my flag: it says Utrecht.
Not every Italian is a Tuscan.

Murphy
06-23-2010, 09:54 AM
Stop yawning Vatican rat.:p

I'm sorry.. but this thread is making me tired. We have a Pole arguing against German Supremacists, some Italian guy (I think he's Italian?) backing up the Pole and now we have a contingent of Dutchmen trying to convince everyone that the Germans were right to bomb their (the Dutch's) cities.

Groenewolf
06-23-2010, 09:56 AM
No,Holland was as in WW1 neutral

Officially, before the invasion. However this does not mean that preparations where made. Nice book about this affair is this one :

http://static.bol.com/imgbase0/BOOKCOVER/FC/9/0/5/9/1/9059116038.gif (http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/generaal-reynders/1001004005498782/index.html)

There you can also read how the minister of defense and other politicians where standing in the way of proper preparations. General Reynders was later proven correct on how the German attack would be executed, with only one error. But that was because a completely new thing that was done. Namely the failed parachute attack on Den Haag to capture the government.

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 09:58 AM
Does it help that a prominent member of this forum (from Holland) called me a hyphenated dutchman?:rolleyes: I think I am well contributing member of the Dutch society:( Relatives of my fought the germans in WWII!

Mine fought with,and were tarred and feathered like stuffed ducks.
10 years later they proved right.

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 10:03 AM
If we look at the neutrality of the Netherlands in 1939 some notes will have to be made. If we were neutral (the feeling under the general population was pro-Allied from the start) then there was some pretty close collaboration between the Allies on one hand and the Northern and Southern Netherlands (some people tend to call that place "Belgium") on the other.

If we look at the Venlo Incident of November 9, 1939 some questions will have to be made whether the Germans could not legally use it to justify their attack on our country. After all.. a Dutch intelligence officer was snatched over the border as well and it was evident that the collaboration between the Allies and the Dutch was too close for comfort.

There are several more cases about the stupendous German error to land into the Southern Netherlands with a brief case filled with attack documents (actually on our country and on the South) later that year and yet again we see that the General Staff there informed the Allies (and the Dutch) and showed some pretty close collaboration.

We were officially neutral but who exactly were we fooling?

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 10:04 AM
A hyphenated Dutchman in the sense that you seem to have a feeling of nationalism for some other country other then our own (like for instance the immigrants here only support their own country)

I support both - even with soccer... Holland vs. Italy:D


And.. I am not from Holland by the way. Look at my flag: it says Utrecht. Not every Italian is a Tuscan.

I am from Twente - that does make me a 'Twentenaar' ? :D eh YES. :D
By the way.. FORZA TWENTE ENSCHEDEEEEEEEEEE:thumb001: The champions of Holland :D

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 10:06 AM
I support both - even with soccer... Holland vs. Italy:D
The problem is: there is no such thing as dual loyalties. Pick and choose.




I am from Twente - that does make me a 'Twentenaar' ? :D eh YES. :D
By the way.. FORZA TWENTE ENSCHEDEEEEEEEEEE:thumb001:
Exactly.

esaima
06-23-2010, 10:10 AM
How do I see my country ideally? First and foremost united with other German regions.

It is very logical, IMHO Austria and German Switzerland are natural parts of Germany.

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 10:14 AM
It is very logical, IMHO Austria and German Switzerland are natural parts of Germany.
The only problem being that the Swiss wouldn't like to join Germany. But Austria.. they were pretty enthusiastic about the Anschluss of 1938.

Lulletje Rozewater
06-23-2010, 10:14 AM
Officially, before the invasion. However this does not mean that preparations where made. Nice book about this affair is this one :

http://static.bol.com/imgbase0/BOOKCOVER/FC/9/0/5/9/1/9059116038.gif (http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/generaal-reynders/1001004005498782/index.html)

There you can also read how the minister of defense and other politicians where standing in the way of proper preparations. General Reynders was later proven correct on how the German attack would be executed, with only one error. But that was because a completely new thing that was done. Namely the failed parachute attack on Den Haag to capture the government.

The Dutch army was not considered formidable even at the end of World War I, and it did not prosper during the interwar years. By the time of the German invasion in 1940, a total of 19 battalions were operational for the defense of the Netherlands, most poorly prepared for combat. Only a few had modern weapons; the majority of soldiers carried carbines of 19th century vintage, and most artillery was similarly outdated. The Dutch army also had little armor, and its air arm had but a handful of reasonably modern aircraft, most notably the Fokker G1 twin-engine fighter-bomber and the fixed-undercarriage Fokker D.XX1 single-seat fighter, with which to face the Luftwaffe. Moreover, the country lacked the industrial infrastructure necessary for fighting a prolonged war.

This seem to indicate that Holland was not prepared

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 10:19 AM
The problem is: there is no such thing as dual loyalties. Pick and choose.

If I were some non-european, (and you know which people I am talking about), I would agree with you...

Technical it isn't even possible, there is a law in Italy (jus-lex sanguinis I believe) who says that Italians by blood can't lose their nationality.

http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Lex_sanguinis/

Italy: Possibly alone in this respect, bestows citizenship jure sanguinis. There is no limit of generations for the citizenship via blood.

You may consider me as Dutch. I am not here to exploid your country.

Groenewolf
06-23-2010, 10:21 AM
Our politicians back then made a lot of mistakes in preparing for war that one is for sure.

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 10:24 AM
If I were some non-european, (and you know which people I am talking about), I would agree with you...

Technical it isn't even possible, there is a law in Italy (lex sanguinis I believe) who says that Italians by blood can't lose their nationality.

http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Lex_sanguinis/

You may consider me as Dutch. I am not here to exploid your country.

Well.. oddly enough I have a cousin who happens to be half-Italian himself. His father from Vieste and his mother just from a common-as-muck village in the center of our province.
As far as I know my cousin has only one passport (but is fully bilingual and considers himself to be a Dutch first and foremost) -namely a Dutch passport. It would however be possible to get an Italian passport under filiation.

So the question is simple: where are your loyalties ? If it is Italy then perhaps this is not your country and people.. if it's the Netherlands you're one of our own.

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 10:43 AM
So the question is simple: where are your loyalties ? If it is Italy then perhaps this is not your country and people.. if it's the Netherlands you're one of our own.

My loyalty is to Beatrix - Queen of the Netherlands, Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.

Murphy
06-23-2010, 10:55 AM
My loyalty is to Beatrix - Queen of the Netherlands, Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.

Your loyalty first and foremost should be to God and Holy Mother Church.

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 11:18 AM
My loyalty is to Beatrix - Queen of the Netherlands, Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.
Very well. So to the Netherlands. But is it to a royal or to a country ?

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Very well. So to the Netherlands. But is it to a royal or to a country ?

Her Majesty Queen Beatrix - is head of state... so both.

http://www.heemkundetubbergen.nl/assets/images/db_images/db_JeMaintiendrai1.jpg

http://static.tmg.nl/wuz/c/9/8/1211463214398.jpg

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 11:53 AM
Well.. my loyalty is to the people and not a Monarch that holds two passports and is a member of the Bilderberg Group and several more likeminded organizations.

Tyrrhenoi
06-23-2010, 12:13 PM
Well.. my loyalty is to the people and not a Monarch that holds two passports and is a member of the Bilderberg Group and several more likeminded organizations.

That's haute trahison of William I of Orange our "Father of the Fatherland"!
He was part german aswell!

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-3148.z?leftcoulisse

The Lawspeaker
06-23-2010, 12:15 PM
That's haute trahison of William I of Orange our "Father of the Fatherland"!
He was part german aswell!

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-3148.z?leftcoulisse
But the Pater Patriae was not a member of organizations that seek to dismantle our sovereignty and our country. HM The Queen is.
That's why I think that a kind of "Stadtholderless Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Stadtholderless_Period)" and a temporal crowned republic would be a good idea until HRM Princess Catherina Amalia is old enough to fulfil her role as monarch. If she or her sisters would not be willing to do it then we can declare the monarchy officially dissolved.

Arrow Cross
06-23-2010, 03:13 PM
LoL I saw that even the supertolerant and peacefull nation of the Netherlands deported the germans after the war.
Even them! Imagine that ! :coffee:
So on what grounds exactly do you claim your Allied Jew-lackeys to be any better than the Germans? Preaching that your side doesn't discriminate by blood and then doing the exact same thing?


yes great wasnt it?? shame you hun pigs didnt go from vojvodina as well
We've been there for more than a millenium now, and we'll still be there in another. It's good to see however that you have already left yourself.

poiuytrewq0987
06-23-2010, 03:17 PM
sure you do first you are bulgarian then serbian now macedonian and all within a matter of 2 weeks or what maybe??? maybe next month you gonna be a gypsy????

I like to switch around for fun -- got a problem with that? Fucking nigger.

Jarl
06-23-2010, 06:47 PM
I like to switch around for fun -- got a problem with that? Fucking nigger.

Transvestite? :D

poiuytrewq0987
06-23-2010, 07:07 PM
Transvestite? :D

Hey now my gender has always been male. :p

Jarl
06-23-2010, 07:15 PM
Hey now my gender has always been male. :p

But that would make you a transsex haha!

spearofperun
06-23-2010, 09:04 PM
So on what grounds exactly do you claim your Allied Jew-lackeys to be any better than the Germans? Preaching that your side doesn't discriminate by blood and then doing the exact same thing?


We've been there for more than a millenium now, and we'll still be there in another. It's good to see however that you have already left yourself.

oh no you wont EUSSR doesnt have to much left as soon as them and nato have dissolved well be taking and securing every single inch of our land back. that means huns out

Lulletje Rozewater
06-24-2010, 11:48 AM
Hey now my gender has always been male. :p

Proof it:cool:

Don
06-24-2010, 03:17 PM
How do you see your country, ideally ?

With 10 millions of invaders out and in TRUE democracy, when people decides over important things for us, not only between 2 parties that decide ignoring the popular desire.

Radojica
06-24-2010, 09:21 PM
Oh some postcard, some 3000 km away :coffee:

Cato
06-25-2010, 12:04 AM
The U.S. gets this:

http://raspberryrunner.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/awesome1.jpg

My kin from the old country just need to visit here and mingle a bit and they might change their tune. :D The divine powers remind me not to be an unpatriotic, self-hating slob regarding the great republic that's sheltered my kin family since the country's inception.

Groenewolf
06-25-2010, 04:42 PM
and now we have a contingent of Dutchmen trying to convince everyone that the Germans were right to bomb their (the Dutch's) cities.

It is about one specific city and whether or not it could be considered a warcrime. And not about whether they where right in doing it. But consider this the only way they could beat the ill equipped and badly trained troops defending Rotterdam was with a massive bomber-raid, that does say something about us Dutch. Now imagine if we where properly prepared. Doubt that Göring could spare enough bombers then.

antonio
06-25-2010, 05:28 PM
With our current robbery-oriented sovereignity removed and constituted as a Franco-Germanic protectorate (with an Iron-age invasions or PostRoman Empire double legitimity) for the sake of Europe and Occidental civilization. They will need wise native people to rule the masses so they can count with me just by sending me a Private Message on this forum. :D

The Lawspeaker
06-25-2010, 07:14 PM
It is about one specific city and whether or not it could be considered a warcrime. And not about whether they where right in doing it. But consider this the only way they could beat the ill equipped and badly trained troops defending Rotterdam was with a massive bomber-raid, that does say something about us Dutch. Now imagine if we where properly prepared. Doubt that Göring could spare enough bombers then.
We would have been in bloody Berlin in five days ! :thumbs up

Austin
07-04-2010, 04:10 AM
-The U.S. to become economic and political partners with Russia on all levels equivalent to what it is currently with Western Europe.

-Feminism to be virtually done away with.

-Homosexuals income garnished annually for funding of youth promotion policies.

-Blacks/Indian-Mexicans micro-chipped forcibly.

-Non-European immigration ended.

-NATO disbanded, Northern Hemisphere Alliance (NHA) created.

-All U.S. forces recalled to U.S. homeland and or Western bases.

-Deport all blacks to Africa after immobilization via microchips via
returned military personnel.

-Construct Israeli-Gaza style wall along Mexican border.

-Deport all Indian-Mexicans, Indian-Latin Americans to Mexico/Latin America via returned military personnel.

-Negotiate entire U.S. debt payed via China for Chinese acquirement of Taiwan.

-Begin dialogue with Eastern Asian nations in preparation for subsequent creation of Northern and Southern realms and establish siphoning/degenerate areas.

Praamžius
07-04-2010, 05:51 AM
-Deport all blacks to Africa after immobilization via microchips via
returned military personnel.

-Deport all Indian-Mexicans, Indian-Latin Americans to Mexico/Latin America via returned military personnel.


WOW now that's what i call radical politics :eek:
No offense , but how black people are not as American as white ?
Both groups are immigrants thought white are immigrant's by conquer and black's by forced slavery .So it's kinda one day we need black's to serve our will after few century's we don't need them they can gtfo.
I think breed regulation patrol is more sensible thing to do :thumb001:
Thought i agree about Mexicans and Latin American's and all the rest good day sir :)

Austin
07-04-2010, 06:16 AM
WOW now that's what i call radical politics :eek:
No offense , but how black people are not as American as white ?
Both groups are immigrants thought white are immigrant's by conquer and black's by forced slavery .So it's kinda one day we need black's to serve our will after few century's we don't need them they can gtfo.
I think breed regulation patrol is more sensible thing to do :thumb001:
Thought i agree about Mexicans and Latin American's and all the rest good day sir :)

Most Americans of European descent don't see blacks as "real Americans" although for most whites (when I say white I mean European descent) it is now only on a subconscious level yet the notion is still there, with some openly still professing it.

Of course it is a conquer mentality! I'm a pro-European-descent-geopolitical-nationalist. I do not care about blacks whom are a race of manual laborers such as the horse is to a farmer, when the horse is no longer needed due to technology/progression it is turned into glue or returned to the pasture, in blacks case Africa.

Can you imagine what a black person in America thinks on the Fourth of July? They were still slaves!!!!! It is a celebration only for real Americans.

nisse
07-04-2010, 01:51 PM
-The U.S. to become economic and political partners with Russia on all levels equivalent to what it is currently with Western Europe.
ROFL...that's so not going to happen.


-Negotiate entire U.S. debt payed via China for Chinese acquirement of Taiwan.
Why? I see "why" America would want it, but why would China?

Praamžius
07-04-2010, 03:08 PM
It is a celebration only for real Americans.

http://cfsworldmusic.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sitting_Bull.jpg/44348587/Sitting_Bull.jpg

Austin
07-04-2010, 08:48 PM
ROFL...that's so not going to happen.



Why? I see "why" America would want it, but why would China?

1. I hope it will happen.

2. Oh China wants it. Just look at their stance on the issue.


And yes Pramm I know but that is the way of a conquered people racially/culturally. Also you Europeans had much to do with the annihilation of Native Americans early on, it wasn't just colonists and then Americans whom decimated the natives. Not that I have a problem with it, that is how Europeans historically have furthered their dominance by conquering others, I have no problem with that as I am descended from them.

Yes England no longer rules the U.S. but it's proverbial rebellious child rules the world which isn't such a raw deal all things considered, their language/practices are still disseminated by their creation. I have no issue with past European dominance it was their time and they had their empires.

Cato
07-04-2010, 11:50 PM
http://cfsworldmusic.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sitting_Bull.jpg/44348587/Sitting_Bull.jpg

I doubt Sitting Bull considered himself to be nothing except a Sioux and I doubt he had no idea who Vespucci was.

Curtis24
07-14-2010, 03:29 AM
Something similar to France, Germany, or Japan. A state that takes care of people by providing welfare and healthcare, keeps corporations under control(though not totally socialist), and mandates humane and comfortable working conditions.

Cato
07-14-2010, 03:31 AM
Something similar to France, Germany, or Japan. A state that takes care of people by providing welfare and healthcare, keeps corporations under control(though not totally socialist), and mandates humane and comfortable working conditions.

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/9/5/633561865071862224-workersparadiserejoicethemotherlandsgloriusworkpro gramswillprovidehappinessandsustainanceforalldemot ivator.jpg

The Lawspeaker
03-23-2011, 09:11 AM
Defense

Defense will of course remain a part of the Federal Government and should, given the dangerous world we live in now, receive more then adequate funding and the focus should be placed on restructuring the Armed Forces into a more modern unified command structure based on the Belgian model (contrary to tradition but cheaper and perhaps easier to run):



Land Component, or the Army;
Air Component, or the Air Force;
Naval Component, or the Navy,
Medical Component.

The emphasis should be placed on the Naval Component since the Navy always was the focus of the Dutch Armed Forces during the days of the Republic and even though we should pursue a policy of neutrality our merchant shipping needs to be protected as pirates attack indiscriminately (the recent situation in Somalia is a clear example of this).
As such the funding allocated to the Armed Forces should reflect this and the Netherlands should look away from (UN/NATO) "peacekeeping-missions" and withdraw it's troops and the American Joint Strike Fighter Program and ask for the reimbursement of the $800 million the country already invested in this overtly costly and senseless project and instead sign for a deal with it's cheaper Swedish competitor and buy the Saab JAS39 Gripen instead.

The majority of the defense budget should (as I said before) be spend on the Naval Component and should be spend a modernization- and enlargement plan: 2/3 destroyers, 5 LCF-class frigates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_class_frigate), 5 M-class frigates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Doorman_class_frigate),2 more auxiliary ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Amsterdam_%28A836%29) and some 9 attack submarines. Cutbacks on naval programs will also take place in the old fashioned command structure (which should be modernized) and the number of bases (the navel base at Willemstad and the Marines' barracks in Savaneta on the Netherlands Antilles should be closed down as part of the completion of our decolonization process ), the naval support bases in Amsterdam and Texel should also be closed. The Royal Dutch Naval College and the Royal Netherlands Military Academy should be fused into a new unified service academy elsewhere- thus cutting costs. All other parts of the modernization of the Navy as decided in the present Fleet Plan 2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy) as well as the Theater Ballistic Missile Defense- project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy) should also be carried out. The Dutch Coast Guard will however become part of the Dutch customs service rather then remain independent or become part of the Navy.

It will however be deemed important that the Navy will work in close conjunction with other powers currently present in the Indian Ocean region as to achieve maximum superiority over the Somali Pirates and any other threats to Dutch interests.
For ceremonial reasons the ship prefix HNLMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His/Her_Netherlands_Majesty%27s_Ship) should be exchanged for LS or LSO ('s Lands Schip, 's Lands Schip van Oorlog) which was the unofficial ship prefix during the days of the old Republic (without abbreviation). For political and ceremonial reasons a training (sailing) ship should be bought or preferably build by a Dutch shipbuilder- and show the face of our navy and proud naval tradition to the world at events like Sail Amsterdam.
The Federal Government should also seek to place most of or all her orders for new ships here in the Netherlands so the companies profiting from this (for them) unique opportunity will be Dutch.

For all military components a National Service will be reintroduced- and it will be compulsory for all 21-year olds to serve in the military for a period of 10 months (or face 18 months of community service).
The Air Component (other then the Gripen) will face no changes but the Land Component will see a mayor overhaul as well with the re-introduction of the National Service and will change into a unique institute that is somewhere between a militia and a regular army (as based on the Swiss model):



Since gun laws will be dropped (for all citizens on at least a federal level) a Dutch soldier will be able to take his service weapons home but will have to store them in a special cache (along with a magazine of 20 bullets)
A soldier (of any rank or component) will have the right to, in case of imminent danger, commandeer any vehicle to take him to a base. Denying him (or her) this service will be severely fined.
The Army cannot be deployed outside EU-territory.
A Chief of the Armed Forces will have to be elected for a period of 10 years by (Federal) Parliament.










A minor difference is that I would scrap the purchase of more M-class ships (or their upgrading) and scrap the lot. Rather then that it would perhaps be more sensible to purchase and upgrade 5 to 8 LCF-class frigats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_class_frigate) and a series of 4 (Swedish - but to be produced here under license) Visby-class corvettes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby_class_corvette). The fleet would be expanded further with two Holland-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_class_offshore_patrol_vessels) OPV's and a couple of FAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Attack_Craft)'s.

Also the Armed Forces can be deployed throughout the world by order of the Federal Parliament - however only in the fight against piracy and after announcing a state of war.

The Naval Air Service would be transferred to the Air Force for further upgrading and integration.

When it comes to armaments the entire armament package should be reviewed and the Netherlands should invest in the modernisation of the force and the purchase of the F88S Austeyr amidst a range of the latest technology in weaponry, personal protection systems and other equipment such as uniforms.

Blossom
03-23-2011, 09:13 AM
Germany: No more turks please or pakis or...garbage like that.
Spain: No Zapatero. And no more guachupinos.









(being quick)

Cato
03-23-2011, 12:55 PM
A place where this man should've been allowed to have been President more than twice:

http://obit-mag.com/media/image/reagan.jpg

:cry

Äike
03-23-2011, 01:00 PM
All the problems in Estonia are caused by Eastern-European, mostly Russian, immigrants. Estonia without Russians would have no problems and a country with no problems would be perfect.

mymy
03-23-2011, 01:08 PM
All the problems in Estonia are caused by Eastern-European, mostly Russian, immigrants. Estonia without Russians would have no problems and a country with no problems would be perfect.

Send them here :D More people with social problems, more job for Mymy :D

Äike
03-23-2011, 01:10 PM
Send them here :D More people with social problems, more job for Mymy :D

What about HIV, is that also a social problem?

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg

I am not joking at all if I say that Russians are solely responsible for everything bad in Estonia, be it crime or HIV.

mymy
03-23-2011, 01:15 PM
What about HIV, is that also a social problem?

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg

I am not joking at all if I say that Russians are solely responsible for everything bad in Estonia, be it crime or HIV.

HIV can be social problem too, depend on population where it exist and how much it is common, if specific population have it, and in big number that it is not only health problem, but also social...

Himera
03-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Germany: No more turks please or pakis or...garbage like that.
Spain: No Zapatero. And no more guachupinos.





... or Slavs ? :(:rolleyes2::p



(being quick)

Himera
03-23-2011, 01:31 PM
All the problems in Estonia are caused by Eastern-European, mostly Russian, immigrants. Estonia without Russians would have no problems and a country with no problems would be perfect.

Really ? Bite the hand that feed you ..so what is the problem with Russians in Estonia?
As I see Ushtari s thankfull , something s going bad here and oportunistic..:rolleyes:

mymy
03-23-2011, 01:34 PM
Slavs don't make much problems outside... Serbs in Germany are pretty good adapted to their society. But Gypsies from Serbia make much problems there. We signed readmission, so they send us back people who are without citizenship and they send us back mostly Gypsies... And it make much new social problems in Serbia... Was learning about it.

Himera
03-23-2011, 01:38 PM
When I entered this forum first time I remember his name was Void and he was from United States of America.
Now I have lost the path of his changes of name and nationality.

I usually don't have sympathy for this kind of people.
Changing traits often imply weakness in their loyalties and in their codes of restriction of behaviours as well.

With this case, my animadversion toward these profiles have not fooled or failed me.

Don t loose yourself you take a virtual stuffs too seriously , that can be a sign of poor social life ?
If we gonna research psychologist behaviors...;)

Äike
03-23-2011, 01:42 PM
Really ? Bite the hand that feed you ..so what is the problem with Russians in Estonia?
As I see Ushtari s thankfull , something s going bad here and oportunistic..:rolleyes:

Bite the hand that feeds me? Russians are a bunch of drug-addicted, HIV sick criminals in Estonia. They are a minority of the population, but they are a majority in the prison population.

No police officer can get a job here without speaking Russian, because most of the criminals are Russian.

You're a Serb, why are you acting so protective towards the Russians?

Are you also a HIV-sick drug addict who gets money by doing crime?

The Ripper
03-23-2011, 01:45 PM
I blame Russians for the late spring! Stupid cold air flowing in from Sjberia!

Groenewolf
03-23-2011, 01:45 PM
You're a Serb, why are you acting so protective towards the Russians?

Serbia has a different relationship with Russia and the Russians then Estonia has. ;)

Radojica
03-23-2011, 02:21 PM
You're a Serb, why are you acting so protective towards the Russians?

Are you also a HIV-sick drug addict who gets money by doing crime?

Are you stupid, or just playing stupid?

Himera
03-23-2011, 02:27 PM
Bite the hand that feeds me? Russians are a bunch of drug-addicted, HIV sick criminals in Estonia. They are a minority of the population, but they are a majority in the prison population.

No police officer can get a job here without speaking Russian, because most of the criminals are Russian.

You're a Serb, why are you acting so protective towards the Russians?

Are you also a HIV-sick drug addict who gets money by doing crime?


First of all, ( I hate to begin an answer to anyone like this, it is not my manner but ...)

1) "a bunch" is never a population

2)drug addicters and hiv sicked people are "overrating cosmopolit damage of the world ", we know that

3) stop playing quazi-victim of USSR , (as far as like the AIDS and criminal are russian developtment????!!! ) ,
maybe an "ortodox hug" is too hard to persist, but "blood suckers-appart-banana lands" , always make a complain like Bacuska has an obligation to react in their benefit after all ,still pointing at him finger like he s guilty for everything...

and the last ...to distinguish evil from rebel you must be born for that...:thumb001:
enjoy ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBPxl_PnKtY

Dobro ti ucinjelo !;)

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 02:28 PM
Bite the hand that feeds me? Russians are a bunch of drug-addicted, HIV sick criminals in Estonia. They are a minority of the population, but they are a majority in the prison population.

No police officer can get a job here without speaking Russian, because most of the criminals are Russian.

You're a Serb, why are you acting so protective towards the Russians?

Are you also a HIV-sick drug addict who gets money by doing crime?
Russian/Serb - Same shit, different name.

Himera
03-23-2011, 02:38 PM
Serbia has a different relationship with Russia and the Russians then Estonia has. ;)

Gentle and unconflict guy...:)

Himera
03-23-2011, 02:43 PM
Russian/Serb - Same shit, different name.

Exactly , in the trouble too ,we r one..:)

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 02:45 PM
Exactly , in the trouble too ,we r one..:)
But most important, you are both orthodox Christian terrorists.

Radojica
03-23-2011, 02:48 PM
Russian/Serb - Same shit, different name.

Ass licker/Albanian - same shit, different name.


But most important, you are both orthodox Christian terrorists.

Funny to hear this from someone who is declaring himself as atheist and whose people is destroying everything Orthodox and Christian in Kosovo and Metohija and at the same time are Muslims and whose government is made of proven terrorist group KLA.

Svanhild
03-23-2011, 02:57 PM
Slavs don't make much problems outside... Serbs in Germany are pretty good adapted to their society.
I beg to differ, your statement isn't true. There're groups of immigrants from the Balkan (i'm not talking about gypsies now) like a good share of Serbs or Bosniaks who're a clear problem in our society. They show strong group cohesiveness and some are involved in organized criminal acts. Their reputation isn't the best. As a matter of fact, only Croats and Slovenians have a rather good reputation. I'm afraid that you won't like to hear the truth, but a lot of Serbs got an image of troublemakers with strong gang attitude. Not all Serbs but an image is an image. And every image has a reason.

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 02:57 PM
Funny to hear this from someone who is declaring himself as atheist and whose people is destroying everything Orthodox and Christian in Kosovo and Metohija and at the same time are Muslims.
Says he whose Serbian clerics openly support genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went and executed 8000 Bosnians in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans. The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, but above all against the Albanians and Bosnians. Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.


And its always funny how you Serbs bitch about those churches when YOU destroyed 1/3 of all Albanian religious buildings in Kosovo, IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Radojica
03-23-2011, 03:05 PM
Says he whose Serbian clerics openly support genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went and executed 8000 Bosnians in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans.

Do you have some evidence, or you are pulling this out from your ass again :coffee:?



The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, but above all against the Albanians and Bosnians.

And Muslims are saints, or what :rotfl:?



Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.

Lol, you are obviously mixing Catholic Church which supported and blessed Ustashas regime during WWII with Orthodox Church :lol:



And its always funny how you Serbs bitch about those churches when YOU destroyed 1/3 of all Albanian religious buildings in Kosovo, IN THE FIRST PLACE!

I can list you all of the churches and monasteries destroyed and damaged in the last 12 years. Can you do that with mosques and other Muslim relic and sacred objects?

Peerkons
03-23-2011, 03:08 PM
A perfect world is world without russians.

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 04:03 PM
Do you have some evidence, or you are pulling this out from your ass again :coffee:?
Below you can see the first part of three about slaughter in Srebrenica. The Serbian church is of course present to bless the mass murderers and to wish them luck in the slaughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84_LdFAA3c0&feature=related


And Muslims are saints, or what :rotfl:?
We dont fight in the name of religion, unlike your filthy bred.





Lol, you are obviously mixing Catholic Church which supported and blessed Ustashas regime during WWII with Orthodox Church :lol:
Serbs participated in the extermination of Jews and even made ​​a mini-holocaust of Bosnians.

Here are some quotes:


Serbian Nazi fascists worked closely with German Nazi officials in making Belgrade the first “Judenfrei” city of Europe
The first city in Europe to be declared "Jew free"


With Adolf Hitler’s blessing, Serbian Nazi collaborators established the Serbian State Guard which comprised of around 20,000 Serb fascists, compared to the the 3,400 German police in Serbia. Their mission was to hunt down and kill Jews, Gypsies and other non-Serbs.
Serbs assist the small German political strength of 20,000 men to hunt and kill non-Serbs.


Milan Nedic’s second in command was Dimitrije Ljotic. Ljotic founded the Serbian Fascist Party and organized the Serbian SS Volunteers Corps which hunted down and killed Jews, Gypsies and Muslims. Serbian citizens received cash bounties for capturing or killing Jews.
A voluntary Serbian group was created with the same function as "serbian state guard


Some 94 percent of Serbia’s 16,000 Jews were exterminated, with the considerable cooperation of the Serbian government, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Serbian State Guard, the Serbian police and the Serbian public. Some 60,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed by Serbian Chetniks
Source: (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36949049/Notice-to-Israel-Serbian-Nazis-Killed-Jews-in-World-War-II)


The Serbian Church, "serbian-state guard, Serb police and Serb population helped the Nazis to kill over 90% of the country's Jews, while in the same time Bosnian civilians were killed whenever the chance arose.

Here is a video where civilian Serbs welcomes Serbian Nazi collaborators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xWU1A6-xJE

Very strange, I always been told that Serbs are people of peace and how they bravely fought for humanity in WW2 and now it turns out that they stood for a lot of evil. In addition to Jews and Bosnians thousands of Britons lost their life. Just around Srebenica area about 20,000 Bosnians civilians were killed, the same area as they again in the 90's committed a new genocide against the Bosnians.

The Nazis themselves believed that they had not done so well to make Serbia "Jew-free 'without Serbs strong collaboration, and as i have shown, the Serbian church, police, state guard, volunteers Serbian groups and ordinary Serbs assisted the Nazis in the mass killings of Jews and Bosnians.



I can list you all of the churches and monasteries destroyed and damaged in the last 12 years. Can you do that with mosques and other Muslim relic and sacred objects?
Serbian terrorist acts are well documented


The status of selected Muslim sacred sites. András Riedlmayer and Andrew Herscher, also of Harvard University, carried out a post-war field survey of damage to cultural and religious heritage in Kosovo in October 1999. They found no sign that NATO airstrikes had caused damage to Muslim or Orthodox sacred sites. However, more than 200 mosques had been destroyed or damaged in "ethnic cleansing" operations by Serbian forces in 1998-99. Among the worst hit was the northwestern Kosovo municipality of Pec, where all 36 mosques had been burned out, blown up, or vandalized, including the 14th-century Mosque of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror (Bajrakli Xhamia) and the 18th-century Red Mosque (Xhamia e Kuqe).
Source: (http://www.sacred-sites.org/preservation/kosovo.html)


Of the more than 600 mosques in Kosovo, greater than 200 were damaged or destroyed during the war. Andras Riedlmayer, from the Cambridge-based Kosovo Cultural Heritage Project, documented how Serb paramilitaries burnt, bombed, and vandalized mosques—sometimes tearing leaves from ancient Koran manuscripts and writing crude anti-Albanian graffiti on the walls.
Source: (http://balkandevelopment.org/kosovo/08.htm)

We shall not forget the nearly 500 destroyed kullas


Kullas are unique Albanian-style stone mansions built between the 18th and early 20th centuries. Of the 500 Kullas existing prior to the war, 450 suffered damage by Serb forces intent on eradicating all traces of Albanian culture in Kosovo. Fortunately they were not as successful as they were in parts of Bosnia where, not only did they destroy mosques in Banja Luka and Foca, they carted away the stones and made a parking lot.
Source (http://balkandevelopment.org/kosovo/08.htm)

Äike
03-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Are you stupid, or just playing stupid?

I am a jäärapää.


First of all, ( I hate to begin an answer to anyone like this, it is not my manner but ...)

1) "a bunch" is never a population

2)drug addicters and hiv sicked people are "overrating cosmopolit damage of the world ", we know that

3) stop playing quazi-victim of USSR , (as far as like the AIDS and criminal are russian developtment????!!! ) ,


AIDS and crime are a Russian development, at least in Estonia. They make 1/3 of the population, but 2/3 of the prison population. Also, when speaking about HIV, it's a complete Russian monopoly.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg

The most HIV-sick and crime infested part of Estonia, is the county of Ida-Virumaa, which is the most Russian part of Estonia. The least HIV-infected and the safest place in Estonia is Hiiumaa, which is also the most Estonian place of Estonia.

Himera
03-23-2011, 05:50 PM
I beg to differ, your statement isn't true. There're groups of immigrants from the Balkan (i'm not talking about gypsies now) like a good share of Serbs or Bosniaks who're a clear problem in our society. They show strong group cohesiveness and some are involved in organized criminal acts. Their reputation isn't the best. As a matter of fact, only Croats and Slovenians have a rather good reputation. I'm afraid that you won't like to hear the truth, but a lot of Serbs got an image of troublemakers with strong gang attitude. Not all Serbs but an image is an image. And every image has a reason.

You make some stereotyps now, and you know that you r not from population who can judging anyone for at least next hundered years ...


Honey , you even don t have an normal order of hormons ,so nobody blame you that you r not normal because of that !:thumb001:
Cheer up, and don t be so rigide , cause xenophobic can meet also an homophobic! The world isn t perfect.:)

mymy
03-23-2011, 05:53 PM
I beg to differ, your statement isn't true. There're groups of immigrants from the Balkan (i'm not talking about gypsies now) like a good share of Serbs or Bosniaks who're a clear problem in our society. They show strong group cohesiveness and some are involved in organized criminal acts. Their reputation isn't the best. As a matter of fact, only Croats and Slovenians have a rather good reputation. I'm afraid that you won't like to hear the truth, but a lot of Serbs got an image of troublemakers with strong gang attitude. Not all Serbs but an image is an image. And every image has a reason.

Oh, I see... Then sorry, you know better how it there than me, I know what i hear here. But I guess I forgot about Pink Panther group :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Panthers

Himera
03-23-2011, 05:57 PM
A perfect world is world without russians.

A perfect world is world where jerks comunicate only with jerks...
Self segregation

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-23-2011, 05:58 PM
Looks like a good share of apricity-members been at least raped by Russian HIV-infected prisoners to justify all this continuous hatred.

Heretik
03-23-2011, 06:06 PM
How do you see your country, ideally?

http://eklektik.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/hrvatska_u_vrijeme_tomislava1.jpg

Pretty much this. :thumbs up

Himera
03-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Looks like a good share of apricity-members been at least raped by Russian HIV-infected prisoners to justify all this continuous hatred.

Ivanuschka,Ivanuschka I leave my breath at this front for Russia , only because some bunch of freaks,who r infected whit aids, are of russian nationality ... They made Russians here like they r green monkeys from subsahar african area...:D:D:mad:
Pomagaj ! :p

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Ivanuschka,Ivanuschka I leave my breath at this front for Russia , only because some bunch of freaks,who r infected whit aids, are of russian nationality ... They made Russians here like they r green monkeys from subsahar african area...:D:D:mad:
Pomagaj ! :p

Well, I couldnt care less about some hard-core whiners here. Jaarapaa probably cries in his pillow 24/7 about nasty Russian hiv-infected prisioners dwelling around his house. What can I do about it? Sorry, I can't heal misery. I can just say to him "There there my little Jaarapaa, brighten up, it's nöt so bäd äfter äll. Life göes ön, enjöy it while yöu cän. Leäve grief änd misery to elders, my little Jaarapaa." Perhaps this will make him feel a little better. :p

Cato
03-23-2011, 06:41 PM
http://www.romanitas.com/text/map.jpg

As a might-have-been province of the greatest empire in history.

Äike
03-23-2011, 06:45 PM
Well, I couldnt care less about some hard-core whiners here. Jäärapää probably cries in his pillow 24/7 about nasty Russian hiv-infected prisioners dwelling around his house. What can I do about it?

I live in the safest and most Estonian part of Tallinn, there are no HIV-infected Russians around my home, although thousands of home owners in the Russian districts have a problem with HIV-sick Russian drug addicts get into their apartment buildings and shooting up heroin there.


Sorry, I can't heal misery. I can just say to him "There there my little Jäärapää, brighten up, it's nöt so bäd äfter äll. Life göes ön, enjöy it while yöu cän. Leäve grief änd misery to elders, my little Jäärapää." Perhaps this will make him feel a little better. :p

If you aren't a Russian immigrant in Estonia, then I do not see a reason why you should dislike my posts.

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-23-2011, 06:51 PM
If you aren't a Russian immigrant in Estonia, then I do not see a reason why you should dislike my posts.


I don't dislike it, I just feel bad for you. Even your avatar screams that you drowns in misery. Don't let those evil Russians ruin your life, Jaarapaa.

Äike
03-23-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't dislike it, I just feel bad for you. Even your avatar screams that you drowns in misery. Don't let those evil Russians ruin your life, Jäärapää.

My avatar shows the reaction that I get while reading posts in The Apricity, made by people who aren't quite bright.

Don
03-23-2011, 07:33 PM
Limpio de basura extranjera.

Clean, as it was in the last 500 years until the last 15.

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-23-2011, 07:34 PM
My avatar shows the reaction that I get while reading posts in The Apricity, made by people who aren't quite bright.



Whatev

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CpWFWf2Rngc/TO9UT6a1_3I/AAAAAAAAA7Q/KXzlZJTnb4I/s400/M2wK3.jpg

Heretik
03-23-2011, 07:44 PM
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/estonian1.jpg

Svanhild
03-23-2011, 08:09 PM
You make some stereotyps now, and you know that you r not from population who can judging anyone for at least next hundered years ...
Do you think I believe there's historic guilt for my people? Are you kidding me? We can judge who and how often we want, and I do.

Honey , you even don t have an normal order of hormons ,so nobody blame you that you r not normal because of that !:thumb001:
Cheer up, and don t be so rigide , cause xenophobic can meet also an homophobic! The world isn t perfect.:)
Now the text without dyslexia and idiocy please.

Peyrol
03-23-2011, 08:16 PM
Russian/Serb - Same shit, different name.

If I start to list the crimes committed by albanian/shquptars/Kosovars immigrants in Italy, wouldn't be enough a whole section of the forum.:rolleyes:

mymy
03-23-2011, 08:18 PM
If I start to list the crimes committed by albanian/shquptars immigrants in Italy, wouldn't be enough a whole section of the forum.:rolleyes:

Then let's do exchange, Albanians to Estonia, Slavs to Italy! :cool:

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 08:20 PM
If I start to list the crimes committed by albanian/shquptars/Kosovars immigrants in Italy, wouldn't be enough a whole section of the forum.:rolleyes:
Says the innocent italian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia
http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/articles/article/Italy/Organised-Crime-in-Italy:-The-Italian-Mafia/306

Peyrol
03-23-2011, 08:29 PM
Says the innocent italian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia
http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/articles/article/Italy/Organised-Crime-in-Italy:-The-Italian-Mafia/306

Sicilian mafia in USA were(is?) the worst scum of southern Italy, made by people who were kick-assed out of Italy by the anti-mobsters "Legge suprema" by Mussolini in the '20s years.

Leaving aside the fact that you speak about Sicilian and not about Italian of the Mainland, the question is not representative for the entire population.

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 08:47 PM
Sicilian mafia in USA were(is?) the worst scum of southern Italy, made by people who were kick-assed out of Italy by the anti-mobsters "Legge suprema" by Mussolini in the '20s years.

Leaving aside the fact that you speak about Sicilian and not about Italian of the Mainland, the question is not representative for the entire population.




Italian Organized Crime

Overview

Since their appearance in the 1800s, the Italian criminal societies known as the Mafia have infiltrated the social and economic fabric of Italy and now impact the world. They are some of the most notorious and widespread of all criminal societies.

There are several groups currently active in the U.S.: the Sicilian Mafia; the Camorra or Neapolitan Mafia; the ’Ndrangheta or Calabrian Mafia; and the Sacra Corona Unita or United Sacred Crown.

We estimate the four groups have approximately 25,000 members total, with 250,000 affiliates worldwide. There are more than 3,000 members and affiliates in the U.S., scattered mostly throughout the major cities in the Northeast, the Midwest, California, and the South. Their largest presence centers around New York, southern New Jersey, and Philadelphia.

Their criminal activities are international with members and affiliates in Canada, South America, Australia, and parts of Europe. They are also known to collaborate with other international organized crime groups from all over the world, especially in drug trafficking.

The major threats to American society posed by these groups are drug trafficking and money laundering. They have been involved in heroin trafficking for decades. Two major investigations that targeted Italian organized crime drug trafficking in the 1980s are known as the “French Connection” and the “Pizza Connection.”

These groups don’t limit themselves to drug running, though. They’re also involved in illegal gambling, political corruption, extortion, kidnapping, fraud, counterfeiting, infiltration of legitimate businesses, murders, bombings, and weapons trafficking. Industry experts in Italy estimate that their worldwide criminal activity is worth more than $100 billion annually.


Camorra or Neapolitan Mafia (based in Naples)

The word “Camorra” means gang. The Camorra first appeared in the mid-1800s in Naples, Italy, as a prison gang. Once released, members formed clans in the cities and continued to grow in power. The Camorra has more than 100 clans and approximately 7,000 members, making it the largest of the Italian organized crime groups.

In the 1970s, the Sicilian Mafia convinced the Camorra to convert their cigarette smuggling routes into drug smuggling routes with the Sicilian Mafia's assistance. Not all Camorra leaders agreed, leading to the Camorra Wars that cost 400 lives. Opponents of drug trafficking lost the war.

The Camorra made a fortune in reconstruction after an earthquake ravaged the Campania region in 1980. Now it specializes in cigarette smuggling and receives payoffs from other criminal groups for any cigarette traffic through Italy. The Camorra is also involved in money laundering, extortion, alien smuggling, robbery, blackmail, kidnapping, political corruption, and counterfeiting.

It is believed that nearly 200 Camorra affiliates reside in this country, many of whom arrived during the Camorra Wars.

’Ndrangheta or Calabrian Mafia (based in Calabria)

The word “’Ndrangheta” comes from the Greek meaning courage or loyalty. The ’Ndrangheta formed in the 1860s when a group of Sicilians was banished from the island by the Italian government. They settled in Calabria and formed small criminal groups.

There are about 160 ’Ndrangheta cells with roughly 6,000 members. They specialize in kidnapping and political corruption, but also engage in drug trafficking, murder, bombings, counterfeiting, gambling, frauds, thefts, labor racketeering, loansharking, and alien smuggling.

Cells are loosely connected family groups based on blood relationships and marriages. In the U.S., there are an estimated 100-200 members and associates, primarily in New York and Florida.

Sacra Corona Unita or United Sacred Crown (based in the Puglia region)

Law enforcement became aware of the Sacra Corona Unita in the late 1980s. Like other groups, it started as a prison gang. As its members were released, they settled in the Puglia region in Italy and continued to grow and form links with other Mafia groups. The Sacra Corona Unita is headquartered in Brindisi, located in the southeastern region of Puglia.

The Sacra Corona Unita consists of about 50 clans with approximately 2,000 members and specializes in smuggling cigarettes, drugs, arms, and people. It is also involved in money laundering, extortion, and political corruption. The organization collects payoffs from other criminal groups for landing rights on the southeast coast of Italy, a natural gateway for smuggling to and from post-Communist countries like Croatia, Yugoslavia, and Albania.

Very few Sacra Corona Unita members have been identified in the U.S., although some individuals in Illinois, Florida, and New York have links to the organization.

La Cosa Nostra

La Cosa Nostra is the foremost organized criminal threat to American society. Literally translated into English it means “this thing of ours.” It is a nationwide alliance of criminals—linked by blood ties or through conspiracy—dedicated to pursuing crime and protecting its members.

La Cosa Nostra, or the LCN as it is known by the FBI, consists of different “families” or groups that are generally arranged geographically and engaged in significant and organized racketeering activity. It is also known as the Mafia, a term used to describe other organized crime groups.

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. It has members in other major cities and is involved in international crimes.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/italian_mafia

(more text in the link)

mymy
03-23-2011, 08:57 PM
We do it on other way... :coffee:


Pink Panthers is the name given by Interpol to an international jewel thief network, named after The Pink Panther series of crime comedy films, which is responsible for some of the most audacious thefts in criminal history [1]. They are responsible for what have been termed some of the most glamorous heists ever, with their crimes being thought of as "artistry" even by criminologists.[2] They have targeted several countries and continents, and include Japan's most successful robbery ever amongst their thefts.
Some law enforcement agencies suspect that the group is responsible for over US$500 million in bold robberies in Dubai, Switzerland, Japan, France, Liechenstein, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain and Monaco. Law enforcement suspect their involvement in the robbery of the jewellery store Harry Winston in Paris, on December 9, 2008. The thieves escaped with more than €80 million worth of jewellery.[3]

Peyrol
03-23-2011, 08:58 PM
Ok, but why do you write me all this?
You before talked about the Italian Mafia in America, not about the Neapolitans or Apulians.

Anyway, i'm from North. In Northern Italy most problems are caused by immigrants of North Africa/Black Africa/East Asia...and Shquiperia. The Mafia does not exist here. :laugh::laugh:

Ushtari
03-23-2011, 08:59 PM
Ok, but why do you write me all this?
You before talked about the Italian Mafia in America, not about the Neapolitans.

Anyway, i'm from North. In Northern Italy most problems are caused by immigrants of North Africa/Black Africa/East Asia, the Mafia does not exist here. :laugh::laugh:
Yeah sorry i forgot, only people in northern Italy are italians:coffee:

Himera
03-23-2011, 09:03 PM
Do you think I believe there's historic guilt for my people? Are you kidding me? We can judge who and how often we want, and I do.

Now the text without dyslexia and idiocy please.

You r an inferior corresponder ... :p

Radola
03-23-2011, 09:08 PM
How do you see your country, ideally ?

Well quite typically I guess - everyone wants a clear country, without those filthy scummy gypsies and gypsy-mixed scum. And I forgot I also want my country without communists as they are responsible for bringing in gypsies (how unexpected) and generally tarnishing our country.

Peyrol
03-23-2011, 09:08 PM
Yeah sorry i forgot, only people in northern Italy are italians:coffee:

I never said that, i'm not a "Leghista".
But it is undeniable that there are differences.

Radojica
03-24-2011, 12:33 AM
Oh my God, I think I have seen everything now: Albanian is accusing Italian for criminal :rotfl:


Could this been better :D:D:D?

Radojica
03-24-2011, 01:13 AM
For both Usthari and Karl, enjoy :laugh:


My5CTDGolUs

Ibericus
03-24-2011, 01:17 AM
ideally ? Sweep out all the crap of my country.

Ushtari
03-24-2011, 08:12 AM
Oh my God, I think I have seen everything now: Albanian is accusing Italian for criminal :rotfl:


Could this been better :D:D:D?
What happened to our little discussion? short on arguments?

Himera
03-24-2011, 01:45 PM
What happened to our little discussion? short on arguments?

"Arguments"? I think your average brain is fascinated with phylosophical tools..that s all...
let him feel the joy ... :p

Radojica
03-24-2011, 01:48 PM
What happened to our little discussion? short on arguments?

Sta se lozis, sarane :coffee:?

Some of us have more important things to do than being

http://img3.visualizeus.com/thumbs/09/05/03/geeks,internet,nerd,south,park-d402ed05b757f32a0128b29d6c294898_h.jpg

Serbs are evil and you are angels of the Balkans :wink

Albion
04-27-2011, 01:00 PM
Hopefully I haven't already posted on here. Well I'll do one for England.

The state.

The state:

No cantons or polities named after any historic regions whatsoever. The last thing we need is England breaking up based on autonomous areas. England has always been centralize, if not always effectively ruled as one.

England would be split into regions based on geography, the current regions with a few adjustments. These regions would have small legislatures based around a similar level of power to the Welsh Assembly and would decide on things such as education and agriculture in the particular region. Different regions would also have different minimum wages with lower wages and taxes in poorer regions initially to favour investment there whilst richer regions such as London and the South East would be forced into having higher minimum wages by national legislature.

Counties would be of more importance than they are now and borders would be restored to how they were pre-1974.
Villages would have four annual meetings in public in addition to other meetings. These public meetings would be held outdoors and would be attended by villagers as a chance to question and engage with councillors regarding policy. This meeting would be called a Witan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot) and would be based on the ancient Germanic governance that we still see preserved in some form in the Isle of Man today as the Tynwald. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynwald)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4103383150_acc9f25a66_o.jpg


Those that will be kicked out:

Non-Europeans would be offered generous incentives to leave and if that failed would be deported.
Germanic and Celtic immigration would be the most favoured, followed by other European immigration, but all immigration would be strictly controlled and strict limits would be placed.
It would be extremely hard for non-Europeans to gain citizenship.
Multiculturalism would be banned and followers of it and related mental disorders would be educated and helped recover.
The royal family would be abolished and the palaces would serve as places for governmental institutions. The monarchy would have to relocate to another Commonwealth country and would no longer be permitted to lead it.

Welfare:

Welfare would be restricted to those who genuinely need it - the disabled and jobless. People not willing to work would be put to work in a national service consisting of civil works such as repairing roads and maintaining public buildings in return for their welfare benefit.
Pensions would not be linked to welfare and would not fall under that umbrella since they are not welfare but what a person contributes to in order to retire.


Education and Health Care:

Education would be free right up to university. There'd also be free education schemes to retrain unemployed people after a number of years. Education would be run on a regional level but central government would sometimes step in to ensure all regions were around equal.
Healthcare would be free and would include dentistry and eye tests / glasses (not currently included). Healthcare would be on a national level with local health boards.


Capital city:

London would remain the capital since nowhere else is suitable.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Hdr_parliament.jpg

The Environment.

(For more detail see entry on my blog...) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/blog.php?b=259)


All fossil fuel power stations would be converted to coal using carbon capture "clean coal". The UK has enough high-quality reserves to last it for approx 400 years. Renewables would be greatly invested in, especially hydro along rivers and the coast and eventually fossil fuels would make up only a small percentage of the electricty.
All councils would be required to plant woodlands on all open ground they posses where sensible
A national program of reforestation would be put into practice. Struggling hill farms would be turned over to woodland and a narrow forest corridor would be created from the solent to the Scottish border and through the Pennines, linking together larger planted and existing forests, especially in the Pennines.
Moorland and Heathland would be preserved.
People would be encouraged to maintain wood-powered heating systems based around cheap sources of wood from the aforestation program.
Coal would be from the UK only, recreating the coal industry and would be open pit and hidden behind trees. Once a open cast mine was exhusted it'd be rehabilitated into an area of woodland, heathland and lakes.
Create Marine Protection Parks around Devon, Cornwall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_West_Coast_Path), Southern Isle of Wight, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_wight#Physical_geography_and_wildlife) Jurassic Coast, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_coast) The Wash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wash), Flamborough head, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamborough_Head) The Farne Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farne_islands) and Lindisfarne. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindisfarne)


The government would encourage waste ground (included that wasted by councils) to be used for either parks and woodland, new housing (on brownfield sites) or farmland. The keeping of horses would be discouraged since they churn up land, their owners have pushed land prices up dramatically over the past years and because they're of little use in the modern world for most people (the only real use for them is ceremonial). There are also better uses for land.
Canals would be kept as they are but more cycle paths and long distance footpaths would be made to follow the sides of canals. Footpaths would be repaired where they're a muddy mess.
Wildlife would also be encouraged along "green corridors" in urban and suburban areas such as canals, rivers and streams.
Buildings would be built upwards instead of outwards (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/blog.php?b=258). Why make a large five-bedroom house on two large floor plans when by adding a third level less space could be taken up and the house could have six bedrooms?
Housing Associations would be forced to stop favouring immigrants and encouraged to build houses with nice architecture.

All new build houses and residences would be required to have a solar panel or small wind turbine to generate a percentage of their electricity. Wind Turbines would be made out at sea and reservoirs would be upgraded to become more efficient whilst older and uneconomical ones would be drained and turned to woodland or farmland.
There'd be less road tax on less polluting cars. However electric and bio-diesel cars wouldn't be widely supported since assembling electric car batteries does a great deal of harm to the environment at the moment and bio-diesel competes with food security.

Overpopulation

(for more details see the entry on my blog...) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/blog.php?b=258)

Encourage immigrants to leave as stated earlier. Also allow the population to fall by not inviting more immigrants and by not encouraging a high birth rate. Once the population stabilized at something more acceptable between 35 and 40 million people then measures could be put in place to keep it roughly at that level. (England has more people than Canada despite being only a fraction of the size)

Infrastructure and land-use.

No where whatsoever will be sacrificed or left to the mercy of the sea.

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/img/climatechange/IMG_2440.jpg

As discussed in this post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=393071&postcount=14), solid rock blocks would be brought to areas of soft soil / sand / shingle and clay cliffs such as at Holderness. Such blocks would also be used construct massive, long lasting sea walls along much of England's East and North West Coasts.
Some shallow areas around East Anglia's coast would be reclaimed for much-needed arable farmland.

To ease the over crowding of prisons, England would re-introduce a former solution - penal colonies and prison ships.
Foulness would be a penal colony (its currently a military base).
England would also help Iceland lay a power cable (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=395736#post395736) to the British Isles to export electricty to the British Isles (hopefully also with the support of Scotland).

Transportation

Rail transport

High speed rail lines would be created not just between the main cities but to all the regions of England - one to the West Midlands and North, splitting and heading to the NW cities with the other line to Yorkshire and the North East. Another high-speed rail line to East Anglia (Norwich), one to Southhampton and finally one to Plymouth (SW).
The railway system would be re-nationalized and Swiss managers would be brought in to retrain the industry (quite an ironic thing to have to do since railways were in a major part invented in Britain).

Road transport

Motorways would be reviewed and more carriageways added where needed and some new motorways built.
Roads and motorways would be placed in tunnels where they cause a blot on the landscape (i.e. Stonehenge). Light pollution from street lights would be cut down as less lights would be used.
England would also gradually phase in driving on the right.

Albion
04-27-2011, 01:02 PM
Defence

Defence will be split between the following forces and led by the Ministry of Defence:


English Army
English Navy
English Airforce
SAS


Like with the Netherlands, the navy would be important as it traditionally has been and the Navy and Air force would co-operate rather than having separate fleets of aircraft.
http://westtosberryfarm.moonfruit.com/communities/4/004/007/753/204/images/4531060137_pre.jpg
The number of aircraft carriers would be brought up to five. Nuclear submarines would be kept kept as they are but moved to a base to be constructed near to
Hartland Point, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartland_Point) Devon - out of the way of large populations, Scotland and the BAE Systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems)weapons factory in Barrow in Furness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrow_in_furness#Economy) (my original choice)

England would buy most of its weapons from English or European-based companies. We'd also ditch Trident and restart our former nuclear weapons program on a limited scale and co-operate with France.

National Service would also be reintroduced, with naval service for a minimum of two years naval service being the preferred service.
The navy would be stationed in bases on the Irish Sea, North Sea, English Channel, Mediterranean to help with defence of Europe's frontiers, Socotra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra) to attack Somali pirates, Accession Island and with a major base in the Falkland Islands complete with nuclear subs and a missile defence shield in case the Argies try anything.

England would work with other interested European countries to introduce a Europe-wide defence treaty which would exclude America and non-European nations. Russia would also be asked to join.

Local weapons caches would be placed in all towns in case of an emergency with enough weapons and ammunition for every one fit to fight and with extra provisions for guerilla wars.

British territories:

Many of the British Overseas Territories are nothing more than millstones and black cess pits so the territories would be re-organised:


Bermuda - given to America or independence
Cayman Islands - to Jamaica
British Virgin Islands - to American Virgin Islands
Montserrat and Anguila - to surrounding nations
Turks and Caicos - to Bahamas
St Helena - Given indepdence as a protectorate of England and would be helped to develop and an airport would be built
Accension Island - Would be fully incorporated into England as part of a parish in Devon. Military base would be retained.
Tristan da Cunha - Fully incorporated into England as an autonomous county
Pitcairn Islands - incorporated into England as a special county.
Gibraltar - Given independence as a protectorate of England
Akrotiri and Dhelkia - Given to the Republic of Cyprus in return for a non-negotiable 100 year lease on the military bases.
British Indian Ocean Territory - Chagosians would be helped to resettle all but Diego Garcia which would be retained as a military base. All of the territory apart from Diego Garcia would be given to Mauritius. Diego Garcia would be kept for as long as the UK needs it.
Falkland Islands - Argentina would be given a choice - either it can have the Falklands in return for abandoning its claim to half of British Antarctic Territory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Antarctic_Territory) in an allocated area and also abandon its claim to South Georgia and and the South Sandwich Islands. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Georgia_and_the_South_Sandwich_Islands) Or it could maintain the status quo.
If it accepted British Antarctic Territory would give up the areas disputed with Chile and leave Argentina and Chile to their dispute. British Antarctic Territory would be settled with domed towns to exploit the minerals whilst the environment would be carefully protected.
Falklanders would be moved to domed settlements in South Georgia or would stay in the Falklands as Argentina took control.
Both territories would be incorporated into England as counties.

The Lawspeaker
04-27-2011, 01:09 PM
Just stick to the left, mate. Remain English. It were the Americans that went to the right just to nag the Brits and the French that switched whole of Europe to the left for the same reason. (Austria, Iceland, Czechoslovakia (until the Nazi invasion) and Sweden continued to drive on the left).

Albion
04-27-2011, 01:18 PM
Just stick to the left, mate. Remain English. It were the Americans that went to the right just to nag the Brits and the French that switched whole of Europe to the left for the same reason. (Austria, Iceland, Czechoslovakia (until the Nazi invasion) and Sweden continued to drive on the left).

The Americans caused the switch? Well its probably too well embedded in Europe to really switch back now then. I suppose you're right, we might as well stick to the left.

The Lawspeaker
04-27-2011, 01:28 PM
Well.. driving on the left very pretty embedded in Sweden too and still they went to the right in 1967. I suppose that we could just as easily all switch to the left. Also for political reasons: just to nag the Americans and to show that we are different.. and better. ;)

Cato
04-28-2011, 01:59 PM
I'm in a sarcastic mood this morning. Behold, the ideal American.

http://www.hatersgoingtohate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/haters-gonna-hate-fat-american.jpg

Svanhild
04-28-2011, 02:24 PM
Well.. driving on the left very pretty embedded in Sweden too and still they went to the right in 1967. I suppose that we could just as easily all switch to the left.
No. Don't you know the German basic rule? Auf deutschen Autobahnen wird immer RRRECHTS gefahren! Im Verkehr gilt grundsätzlich: RRRECHTS vor links.

Links ist blöd. Only on this odd island they drive left. :wink

Albion
04-28-2011, 05:35 PM
Links ist blöd. Only on this odd island they drive left.

Oi, left is the proper way, you're all doing it wrong.

Now for some random fail pics:

http://cdn.pwnage.ro/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/epic-driving-fail.jpg
http://www.gtfo.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/driving.jpg