Two PCAs supporting the notion of significant British ancestry in eastern/southeastern Ireland

[Sikeliot]

This one here shows people from South Leinster/North Munster (places like Waterford, Kilkenny, Wexford, Wicklow, etc.) drifting away from the main "Irish" cluster and into Britain. This is from the Insular Celtic paper.

It also suggests Connacht being similar to the central and eastern parts of Ireland, while there are some very distinct clusters in the west of Ireland located in Ulster and Munster.

https://i.imgur.com/Z7nvv1D.jpg


This one is a bit more broken down and shows the area around Wexford to be especially shifted away:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qkuz68.jpg

[Bobby Martnen]

Any British blood the Irish have is from rape, and shouldn't be something to be proud of.

[Sikeliot]

Any British blood the Irish have is from rape, and shouldn't be something to be proud of.

That is not true.

Much of Ireland had significant English settlement, but those people merged into the Irish population.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Any British blood the Irish have is from rape, and shouldn't be something to be proud of.

That's nonsense. It's extremely rare for a child to be born of rape. There are many obstacles for it to occur from natural to forcing a miscarriage. There were British/Norman settlements in the Pale for centuries and many of their descendants did not give up Catholicism. There was also Englishmen who 'went native' so to speak in the early years of these settlements. It was a common occurrence.

[Sikeliot]

That's nonsense. It's extremely rare for a child to be born of rape. There are many obstacles for it to occur from natural to forcing a miscarriage. There were British/Norman settlements in the Pale for centuries and many of their descendants did not give up Catholicism. There was also Englishmen who 'went native' so to speak in early years of these settlements. It was a common occurrence.

What it looks like to me, and this is also supported by the chart here, is that all parts of Ireland have some degree of admixture from England, but this is highest in the Kilkenny/Wexford/Waterford/Dublin/etc. area (southeast and eastern Ireland), and lowest in southwest Ireland (Cork/Kerry).

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g001

[Bobby Martnen]

That is not true.

Much of Ireland had significant English settlement, but those people merged into the Irish population.

The English were unwanted foreign invaders who should have never set foot in Ireland. English landowners were allowed to rape native Irishwomen with impunity, because the English government saw Irish as less than human, they even saw Irish as lower than African slaves and Amerindians.

Just like how most of the Euro admixture in African-Americans is from rape by British men.

[Bobby Martnen]

That's nonsense. It's extremely rare for a child to be born of rape. There are many obstacles for it to occur from natural to forcing a miscarriage. There were British/Norman settlements in the Pale for centuries and many of their descendants did not give up Catholicism. There was also Englishmen who 'went native' so to speak in the early years of these settlements. It was a common occurrence.

There is a very small amount of British blood in the Irish from early settlements, the vast majority of it is rape blood from British occupation days.

[Aren]

The English were unwanted foreign invaders who should have never set foot in Ireland. English landowners were allowed to rape native Irishwomen with impunity, because the English government saw Irish as less than human, they even saw Irish as lower than African slaves and Amerindians.

Just like how most of the Euro admixture in African-Americans is from rape by British men.

And you dare to call yourself an Anglo-American. You are a disgrace.

[Bobby Martnen]

And you dare to call yourself an Anglo-American. You are a disgrace.

Anglo-Americans were also mistreated by the British, that's why we had a revolution against them.

[frankhammer]

Anglo-Americans were also mistreated by the British Aristocracy, that's why we had a revolution against them.

Fixed for you. Now how about stay on topic instead of slinging mud.

[Bobby Martnen]

Fixed for you. Now how about stay on topic instead of slinging mud.

You're a New Zealander. I don't know why you're defending the British.

The point is, that Britain was mean to Irish and Anglo-Americans both.

[frankhammer]

The point is, that Britain was mean to Irish and Anglo-Americans both.

Where is your proof that the average Englishman, Scotsman or Welshman had any ill-will towards the Irishman? The topic has nothing to do with the USA.

Every thread you enter and participate in becomes a mud slinging fest. How about letting one run its course on topic.

[Bobby Martnen]

Where is your proof that the average Englishman, Scotsman or Welshman had any ill-will towards the Irishman? The topic has nothing to do with the USA.

Every thread you enter and participate in becomes a mud slinging fest. How about letting one run its course on topic.

The Irish Potato famine is evidence that the British hated Irish and wanted them dead.

[frankhammer]

The Irish Potato famine is evidence that the British hated Irish and wanted them dead.

You don't get it, do you? You just can't. Talk to the hand. :stop00010:

[Sikeliot]

Can we stay on topic please? Thanks :)

[Sikeliot]

The fact that a lot of the people from the Central/South Leinster and North Munster clusters are so shifted toward Britain implies it is likely not from rape and is the result of significant British settlement over time...

[Bobby Martnen]

Can we stay on topic please? Thanks :)

OK


The fact that a lot of the people from the Central/South Leinster and North Munster clusters are so shifted toward Britain implies it is likely not from rape and is the result of significant British settlement over time...

But African-Americans shift towards Britain because of rape, not because of settlement.

[Grace O'Malley]

Any British blood the Irish have is from rape, and shouldn't be something to be proud of.

That's not true. If you read Irish history its not something that commonly occurred. If you look at groups like the Normans they took Irish wives and even with groups like the Vikings there was a lot of marriage for strategic reasons. As people have said rape is not going to be the reason for a lot of admixture in populations. With English and Scots they came as settlers and a lot had families and overtime they just became Irish themselves.

[Bobby Martnen]

That's not true. If you read Irish history its not something that commonly occurred. If you look at groups like the Normans they took Irish wives and even with groups like the Vikings there was a lot of marriage for strategic reasons. As people have said rape is not going to be the reason for a lot of admixture in populations. With English and Scots they came as settlers and a lot had families and overtime they just became Irish themselves.

But why would a native Irish marry the despised occupier - it makes no sense? It would be like a Pole marrying a German in 1940 Warsaw.

[Grace O'Malley]

But why would a native Irish marry the despised occupier - it makes no sense? It would be like a Pole marrying a German in 1940 Warsaw.

It happened in the past. Just looking at Strongbow, the Norman Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, who invaded Ireland was actually invited in by the deposed King of Leinster, Dermot MacMurragh, who wanted to regain his kingdom. Dermot MacMurragh gave his daughter to Strongbow in marriage as part of the deal. These sort of things were common at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion_of_Ireland

Here's something interesting I found.


On the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in the mid-12th century, see The New History of Ireland, (Vol. 2, Cambridge University Press, Chapters 2-4). The Anglo-Norman strategy in Ireland differed from its conquest of England in that the invading force was weak numerically. There were not enough troops and noblemen to secure and hold vast areas of territory. To compensate the Anglo-Normans married off their knights and lesser nobility to the daughters of the Gaelic Irish elite. Intermarriage was a political and convenient solution. As they lacked adequate troops and a colonial population of settlers, they also resorted to financing the placement of Cistercian order monks in various parts of Ireland as a missionary force.


https://normanempire.blogspot.com.au/p/normans-in-ireland.html

[Friends of Oliver Society]

What it looks like to me, and this is also supported by the chart here, is that all parts of Ireland have some degree of admixture from England, but this is highest in the Kilkenny/Wexford/Waterford/Dublin/etc. area (southeast and eastern Ireland), and lowest in southwest Ireland (Cork/Kerry).

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g001

Well, not every Anglo-Irishmen left Ireland. I believe they were once 10% of the population. Gerry Adams has some Scots-Irish ancestry, for example.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

OK



But African-Americans shift towards Britain because of rape, not because of settlement.

That wasn't because of rape, either. I suggest you look into Eugene Genovese's works on southern slavery. Genovese works are the go to books for southern slavery. There were actually quite a few White men and free Black women living together in the south without being officially married. These situations arise when the male population is significantly higher than that of the female population as it was in Atlanta and so men are more willing to take on women of a lower social class, for example. There are other reasons as well that I've discussed before on this forum.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

But why would a native Irish marry the despised occupier - it makes no sense? It would be like a Pole marrying a German in 1940 Warsaw.

It makes perfect sense. If a man has means, then it benefits the woman to hook up with him. It means she and her children will be taken care of. In a world where women had few options to rise above their social class they look towards marriage as a way to better their life.

[Sikeliot]

Well, not every Anglo-Irishmen left Ireland. I believe they were once 10% of the population. Gerry Adams has some Scots-Irish ancestry, for example.

It is clear to me from the PCA plot that Irish from Leinster which make up half of the island's population, mind you, have non-insignificant British ancestry. From what it seems, this also filtered through to Connacht (even though to a lesser extent) and northern Munster.

The only regions I'd suspect have little to no British ancestry are the far southwest.

[Sikeliot]

Though some of that could be due to the fact that there were also Belgic tribes in southeast Ireland more related to the Britons than to the Gaels.

[Bobby Martnen]

It is clear to me from the PCA plot that Irish from Leinster which make up half of the island's population, mind you, have non-insignificant British ancestry. From what it seems, this also filtered through to Connacht (even though to a lesser extent) and northern Munster.

The only regions I'd suspect have little to no British ancestry are the far southwest.

Do you have any West Connaught results, from the Gaeltacht?

[Sikeliot]

Do you have any West Connaught results, from the Gaeltacht?

No, but given that in the Irish DNA Atlas, Connacht goes the way of Dublin and Leinster and not toward South Munster it implies they have British ancestry too.

[Bobby Martnen]

No, but given that in the Irish DNA Atlas, Connacht goes the way of Dublin and Leinster and not toward South Munster it implies they have British ancestry too.

That's unfortunate.

[Sikeliot]

That's unfortunate.

What it looks like to me is this, from most to least British:

Ulster Protestants: mostly of Scottish descent (British transplants)
Leinster: significant assimilated British ancestry
Connacht: assimilated British ancestry but less than Leinster
North Munster: assimilated British ancestry but less than Leinster and Connacht
South Munster: very little British ancestry
Ulster Catholics: very little British ancestry

[Bobby Martnen]

Ulster Protestants: mostly of Scottish descent (British transplants)


Should be deported back to Scotland.

[NSXD60]

C'mon, most of the Irish and English were of the same race, so who the hell cares.

[Grace O'Malley]

What it looks like to me is this, from most to least British:

Ulster Protestants: mostly of Scottish descent (British transplants)
Leinster: significant assimilated British ancestry
Connacht: assimilated British ancestry but less than Leinster
North Munster: assimilated British ancestry but less than Leinster and Connacht
South Munster: very little British ancestry
Ulster Catholics: very little British ancestry

How do you really know that there is significant British ancestry though? The Irish and British have similar British Beaker origins and the only possible differences are more Norse in the Irish and more Anglo-Saxon in the English. Irish also have more of that Breton-like component. Irish surnames are the majority in Ireland so this could just be ancient similarities.

[Sikeliot]

How do you really know that there is significant British ancestry though? The Irish and British have similar British Beaker origins and the only possible differences are more Norse in the Irish and more Anglo-Saxon in the English. Irish also have more of that Breton-like component. Irish surnames are the majority in Ireland so this could just be ancient similarities.

The insular Celtic paper measures the amount of a British component in Ireland as a proxy for British ancestry and there is no region in Ireland averaging less than 20%.

Some of this might be ancient though, as some Belgic tribes existed in parts of Ireland, and must have merged into the Gaelic population.

[Grace O'Malley]

The insular Celtic paper measures the amount of a British component in Ireland as a proxy for British ancestry and there is no region in Ireland averaging less than 20%.

Some of this might be ancient though, as some Belgic tribes existed in parts of Ireland, and must have merged into the Gaelic population.

I think there has been a lot of population movement back and forth between these islands. Places like Ireland though have had much more significant population loss than Britain with famine and immigration. I wonder how that has affected the genetics? Not sure how that would skew things if at all. There would have been mostly the poor that immigrated and the people that could afford to would have stayed. I know from my own family history that my father's side who were from Roscommon (Connacht) left while my mother's North Tipperary (North Munster) people stayed.

[Sikeliot]

See here.

This implies the average British contribution to Ireland (or contribution of ancestry more British-like than Irish-like) is roughly 45% in Northern Ireland, 35% in Wexford, 30% in Leinster, somewhere between 25-30% in North Munster, 25% in South Munster and Connacht, and less than that in North Leinster/Ulster and lowest of all in Cork but still above 20%.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g001

[Grace O'Malley]

See here.

This implies the average British contribution to Ireland (or contribution of ancestry more British-like than Irish-like) is roughly 45% in Northern Ireland, 35% in Wexford, 30% in Leinster, somewhere between 25-30% in North Munster, 25% in South Munster and Connacht, and less than that in North Leinster/Ulster and lowest of all in Cork but still above 20%.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g001

It's obvious that Northern Ireland has significant British ancestry and also places like Dublin have had immigrant populations and was part of the English Pale for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png

[Sikeliot]

It's obvious that Northern Ireland has significant British ancestry and also places like Dublin have had immigrant populations and was part of the English Pale for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ireland_1450.png

It would seem to me all of those clusters except South Munster, Cork, and North Leinster/Ulster have some degree of it.

[Grace O'Malley]

It would seem to me all of those clusters except South Munster, Cork, and North Leinster/Ulster have some degree of it.

Here's some more maps

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Ireland_1300.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Map_of_Ireland_in_1609.gif
http://i65.tinypic.com/ng7bic.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2u4pj85.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2e68mky.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/2uequ12.jpg

[Neon Knight]

Are there any studies of the frequencies of English/British surnames in Irish born people?