Belarus Y-DNA

[Leto]

From the Rozhansky study (2013) (n=1088)

R1a - 50.7%
I2 - 18.5%
N - 10.4%
R1b - 5.7%
I1 - 5.6%
E1b1b - 4.1%
J2 - 2.2%
Other (G2a, J1, Q, T, etc.) - 2.8%

[Peterski]

Is there data on breakdown of R1a into major subclades, such as:

R1a-M458 -------------------------------> Slavic
R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 ---------> Slavic
R1a-M558 other than two above ------> Baltic
R1a-Z92 --------------------------------> Baltic

And also what percent of I2 is Slavic I2a-Y3120 (aka CTS10228)?

[Thracian]

What about HG N? Is that Finnic? Or is it common in Slavs as well?

[Leto]

Is there data on breakdown of R1a into major subclades, such as:

R1a-M458 -------------------------------> Slavic
R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 ---------> Slavic
R1a-M558 other than two above ------> Baltic
R1a-Z92 --------------------------------> Baltic

And also what percent of I2 is Slavic I2a-Y3120 (aka CTS10228)?
No, I only have this brief summary.

What about HG N? Is that Finnic? Or is it common in Slavs as well?
It is mostly Baltic in this case. In general this goes to show that Belorussians are basically a Russian subgroup, 'cause if you look at the Y-DNA of Western or Northwestern Russian (perhaps even Central), you'll see a roughly similar picture while in the Baltic states the percentage of N will be much higher, like 40% or close to that.

[Peterski]

What about HG N? Is that Finnic? Or is it common in Slavs as well?

Branch N1c-M2783 is Baltic, while most of other branches of N1c-L1026 are Uralic (including Finnic).

To the west of the Ural there exist also two older branches than L1026 - N1c-M2126 and N1c-L708.

[Leto]

For comparison Bryansk and Smolensk (Western Russia). The sample size is not very big though (n=86)

R1a - 52.3%
N - 16.3%
I2 - 12.8%
R1b - 4.6%
I1 - 4.6%
J2 - 4.6%
E1b1b - 1.2%
Other - 3.6%

[Peterski]

A. I. Kushniarevich, Russian Journal of Genetics: Applied Research, 2012, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 114-121, about R1a-M458 in Belarus:

"The migration processes of the later period could enhance the regional differences in the distribution of the studied molecular marker [subclade M458 of R1a] in the population of modern Belarusians. In particular, a significantly high frequency of the R1a-M458 haplogroup in Ponemanye and Eastern Polesie regions of Belarus can reflect a movement of the tribal communities with genetic characteristics close to those in the local population into the Neman River and Pripiat River basins. Such communities could be for example Polabian Slavs who left the territory between Elbe River and Oder River at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Millennia under the influence of the expansion of Germanic tribes [Saxons, etc.]. Toponymic parallels, as well as previous results of studies of linguistic and archaeological science, indicate the relationship between the Polabian Slavs and the population of modern Belarus (Jezowa M., 1962; Sedov, 1982; Perkhavko, 1983)."

Polish (Masovian etc.) immigration could also explain higher levels of M458 in Ponemanye (= Grodno Region), but we cannot say the same thing about Eastern Polesie, which never had any significant Polish population. But the Radimiches lived there, and they are considered to be of West Slavic origin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radimichs


Some sources describe them as West Slavs.[1][2] According to Nestor the Chronicler, the tribe of Radimichs were Lachy (Lechitic), similar to Lendians and used to live in areas east from Vistula river. Due to some foreign invasion they moved to the East. (Original Russian text "радимичи же и вятичи — от рода ляхов. Были ведь два брата у ляхов — Радим, а другой — Вятко; и пришли и сели: Радим на Соже, и от него прозвались радимичи, а Вятко сел с родом своим по Оке, от него получили свое название вятичи.")

[EdwardS]

интересно

[Bobby Martnen]

I1 - 5.6%


My brothers.

[Bobby Martnen]

Is there data on breakdown of R1a into major subclades, such as:

R1a-M458 -------------------------------> Slavic
R1a-CTS3402 and R1a-YP343 ---------> Slavic
R1a-M558 other than two above ------> Baltic
R1a-Z92 --------------------------------> Baltic

And also what percent of I2 is Slavic I2a-Y3120 (aka CTS10228)?

Which subclade was Rethel from?

[Peterski]

I just found this excellent website, it seems that R1a-Z92 is very common in Belarus:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/R1a-Z92-european-population-and-frequency-per-country-1-1024x439.png

[Peterski]

My brothers.

Varangian Rus descendants.

[Ayman Vasconic]

I2 - 18.5%
I1 - 5.6%


Quite a lot of I. Why so many so far east?


Varangian Rus descendants.

They had to be firstly & mostly R. One chieftain in Novgorod was coincidently N. The connection between I and Vikings is overrated. And most of Scandinavians were not Vikings at all.

[Vyacheslav]

https://d.radikal.ru/d17/2112/23/bb8e53710f65.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

https://c.radikal.ru/c23/2112/00/3c870f001dce.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

https://d.radikal.ru/d15/2112/22/3e69475e0263.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

https://a.radikal.ru/a11/2112/4c/e655e4b29fef.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

[Slavic Italian]

A. I. Kushniarevich, Russian Journal of Genetics: Applied Research, 2012, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 114-121, about R1a-M458 in Belarus:

"The migration processes of the later period could enhance the regional differences in the distribution of the studied molecular marker [subclade M458 of R1a] in the population of modern Belarusians. In particular, a significantly high frequency of the R1a-M458 haplogroup in Ponemanye and Eastern Polesie regions of Belarus can reflect a movement of the tribal communities with genetic characteristics close to those in the local population into the Neman River and Pripiat River basins. Such communities could be for example Polabian Slavs who left the territory between Elbe River and Oder River at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Millennia under the influence of the expansion of Germanic tribes [Saxons, etc.]. Toponymic parallels, as well as previous results of studies of linguistic and archaeological science, indicate the relationship between the Polabian Slavs and the population of modern Belarus (Jezowa M., 1962; Sedov, 1982; Perkhavko, 1983)."

Polish (Masovian etc.) immigration could also explain higher levels of M458 in Ponemanye (= Grodno Region), but we cannot say the same thing about Eastern Polesie, which never had any significant Polish population. But the Radimiches lived there, and they are considered to be of West Slavic origin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radimichs

So these cities in Russia and Ukraine are actually more Belarusian shifted?

Subsequently, the lands of the Radimichs became a part of the Chernihiv and Smolensk principalities.

[Russki]

So these cities in Russia and Ukraine are actually more Belarusian shifted?

Subsequently, the lands of the Radimichs became a part of the Chernihiv and Smolensk principalities.



For all I know is that Russians who live near Belarus/Ukraine often have haplogroup I2, hinting at the common origin of Ukrainians, Southwest Russians and Belarusians.

https://sun9-15.userapi.com/impf/cbtFpB1ZJgR3BVXy-a-BXvMSrAtXA6Vk725jPQ/OWGkLakOUG0.jpg?size=750x726&quality=95&sign=427f839ddb86f4d8418d008010fb376f&type=album

[Slavic Italian]

For all I know is that Russians who live near Belarus/Ukraine often have haplogroup I2, hinting at their common origin.


Yes, but many from those three regions have Z282 marker which is common in Russia, Belarus, and North Ukraine.

[Slavic Italian]

R1a-Z282 which is common in Russia, Belarus, and North Ukraine. But you can say this about many clades both R1a and I2. I2 is quite rare compared to R1a but I think everybody here knows that.

[Jana]

R1a-Z282 which is common in Russia, Belarus, and North Ukraine. But you can say this about many clades both R1a and I2. I2 is quite rare compared to R1a but I think everybody here knows that.

It isn't rare, it's second most common haplogroup.

[Russki]

If you look at Y-DNA of Belarusians and compare it with autosomal DNA, you realize that Belarusians are basically Ukrainian men + Lithuanian women.

[Jana]

If you look at Y-DNA of Belarusians and compare it with autosomal DNA, you realize that Belarusians are basically Ukrainian men + Lithuanian women.

Looks plausible.

[Russki]

Looks plausible.

Ukrainian men + Finnish women would work for Russians.

Lithuanian men + Finnish women would work for Estonians.

[Slavic Italian]

It isn't rare, it's second most common haplogroup.

Yep. I was just comparing it to R1a percentage wise.

From the Rozhansky study (2013) (n=1088)

R1a - 50.7%
I2 - 18.5%
N - 10.4%
R1b - 5.7%
I1 - 5.6%
E1b1b - 4.1%
J2 - 2.2%
Other (G2a, J1, Q, T, etc.) - 2.8%

[Russki]

Looks plausible.



But, even if mixing WHG Lithuanians and ANE Finns will give you something similar to Estonians, it's a wrong thing to say, because as someone knowledged in Finnic history, I know that Finnic language was spoken in Estonia before it was spoken in Finland.

Estonians are the older, parent nation, and Finland is their daughter.

So I will avoid making these sensitive comparisons in the future.



https://sun9-44.userapi.com/impf/2I4NqF35Ygi7JeyaAMH0f2DOIc2HBPjYrvu8Iw/C-NP-Kq4sgw.jpg?size=951x837&quality=95&sign=5c1cb89c40c32b3315e3334b5782893b&type=album

[Leto]

But, even if mixing WHG Lithuanians and ANE Finns will give you something similar to Estonians, it's a wrong thing to say, because as someone knowledged in Finnic history, I know that Finnic language was spoken in Estonia before it was spoken in Finland.

Estonians are the older, parent nation, and Finland is their daughter.

So I will avoid making these sensitive comparisons in the future.

Excuse me for butting in for a second but is this not sensitive to you? Especially if you are "anti-Russophobic" as you told me.

Ukrainian men + Finnish women would work for Russians.

At least the Finns and the Estonians existed for hundreds of years as separate things before Ukraine and Belarus appeared on the map.
Of course unless you were talking in a purely genetic oracle sense which is fine by me.

[Russki]

Excuse me for butting in for a second but is this not sensitive to you?

It is, that's why I stepped back after speaking it out.



Estonians have a giant superiority complex, telling them that they are Finns + Lithuanians wouldn't make them happy.

Same with Russians.

[Leto]

It is, that's why I stepped back after speaking it out.



Estonians have a giant superiority complex, telling them that they are Finns + Lithuanians wouldn't make them happy.

Same with Russians.
I won't say anything about Estonians (although I don't think they are "half Finnish, half Lithuanian") but in our case that comparison is just a joke. Again, unless you are talking about Vahaduo type stuff which models me as quarter Tatar or 1/16 Selkup or whatever.
Maybe you're a self-hating liberal or something, I don't know you.

[Russki]

Maybe you're a self-hating liberal or something, I don't know you.

No, of course not.

Rus civilization started in Novgorod, so if anything, it's the Ukrainians who should be modeled as Russians + Romanians or whatever.


Let's forget about it.

[Leto]

No, of course not.

Rus civilization started in Novgorod, so if anything, it's the Ukrainians who should be modeled as Russians + Romanians or whatever.
And Kiev (матерь городов русских). The U thing started in the 19th century.


Let's forget about it.
Okay. I'm leaving, fellas. I just realized the OP was myself, so it's my thread.;)

[Slavic Italian]

They should call Z282 the Kievan Rus marker. ;)

[Peterski]

Regional frequencies can be found in this study (Figure 6):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3681942/