Low Birthrate in Europe

[Teutone]

What do you think is the reason for the low-birthrate in Europe.

It seems like most Men do blame Women for it and most Women blame the Men for it.

[TheMaestro]

In eastern Europe I think it is because of money, in western Europe I think people take kids something like loosing their freedom

[Teutone]

For me it is pure logic why all this is happening.

Troughout 10000 of years there wasnt any problem with the birthrate in Europe, because the whole gender roles and defintion of a family never changed.

The moment the birthrate went down, was the moment we questioned nature, gender roles and the nuclear family in General.

So the ONLY way to fix this is stop the damn experiments and make the government, society and media praising the nuclear family again.

http://www.makeitinny.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/americandream-minyblog.jpg

[Teucer]

Contraception, the demands of modern life, the growing importance of careers, lack of incentives, in no particular order

[Teutone]

In eastern Europe I think it is because of money, in western Europe I think people take kids something like loosing their freedom

Most poor countries have a higher birthrate than rich countries, so it cannot be it.

[Moje ime]

In East - financial situation, non stable future for young families etc. In West - I don't know. Maybe base of problem is the same, the same reasons, because people today are used to lot of benefits in life. We have somewhat narcissistic generations.

But before 50-100 years it was less expensive to have kids. Today kids have more wishes, education is a must, good healthcare, holidays, even a good food (kids in past, at least in south and west were sometimes hungry). It is not easy to have much kids today. But in the same time I would say it is not even necessary.

For a simple reproduction it is enough for a couple to have two kids. With stopped immigration that would be enough.

I'm fine with praising a nuclear family but not as only solution. Best solution is that women who want to have kids should have huge benefits, couples as well.
I don't know how much it is present in West, but even more wouldn't be too much.

As far as I know there are even some taxes in Germany for non-married people?

[Teutone]

In East - financial situation, non stable future for young families etc. In West - I don't know. Maybe base of problem is the same, the same reasons, because people today are used to lot of benefits in life. We have somewhat narcissistic generations.

But before 50-100 years it was less expensive to have kids. Today kids have more wishes, education is a must, good healthcare, holidays, even a good food (kids in past, at least in south and west were sometimes hungry). It is not easy to have much kids today. But in the same time I would say it is not even necessary.

For a simple reproduction it is enough for a couple to have two kids. With stopped immigration that would be enough.

I'm fine with praising a nuclear family but not as only solution. Best solution is that women who want to have kids should have huge benefits, couples as well.
I don't know how much it is present in West, but even more wouldn't be too much.

As far as I know there are even some taxes in Germany for non-married people?

Tax cuts for parents, free Kindergarten, fulltime school coverage etc wont and never will do shit about boosting our birthrate.

The only way is stop the cultural-marxism

[Thilo_88]

Here in Costa Rica we got 1.1, this country used to be european, but it is not anymore. Main reasons being the races dont exist propaganda and feminism

[Dragoon]

https://s9.postimg.cc/bdvul5wcf/Total_fertility_rate_1960-2011_live_births_per_woman.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Moje ime]

feminism

Women need benefits, not oppression. Just forget idea of forcing anyone of anything. Think about how to make them want.

I don't know about West but for East and South of Europe (and Serbia) I'm sure there are women who would like to have even more children but can't because of unstable marriages, unresponsible husbands, economic factors and overall depression in the society. Then young couples go to West to work and have children there.

But I don't have answer for Germans in this case...

[Livin]

Germany and Greece are in the top of low birthrate....!!!

Western women want career,money,good life.
Feminism,Hollywood,lifestyle etc

1 or 2 kids at the age of 35...


And Muslims got 5 childer at the age of 22

[Cristiano viejo]

The reason is the brainwashing of media, the feminism and the lefties. All of that related each other, of course.

[Bobby Martnen]

Birth control is part of the reason, but not all of it.

It's also because people have become very hedonistic, so they pursue selfish goals instead of investing their time and money into raising more children.

[Dragoon]

I wrote a long response in detail but it erased...

Culture (lazy, me me attitude, pornography, radical feminism, young adults are like teenagers, delaying marriage/births to late age, etc)
Economy (both parents work, higher cost to maintain for middle class, some countries no get enough benefits)
Contraceptives
Chemicals *

Endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) found in everyday items, including the plastics of food containers, personal care items, food products, as well as in manufacturing and industrial and agricultural processes.
Once released into the environment, exposure occurs via inhalation, absorbance, but mainly by ingestion from contaminated food and water. Most EDCs act via, interfere with, or mimic, steroid hormones – predominantly oestrogen and androgen pathways, or thyroid hormones.

Phytoestrogens,
Bisphenols/Phthalates (found in 90% of people, plastics, personal care products),
Parabens,
Persistant organic pollutants,
Pesticides/Herbices
Heavy metals
Fossil Fuels
EMF (mobile phones, microwaves, high power voltage lines, etc)

https://yourfertility.org.au/resource/the-effects-of-environmental-chemicals-on-fertility-and-fecundity/

[Moje ime]

I wrote a long response in detail but it erased...

Culture (lazy, me me attitude, pornography, radical feminism, etc)
Economy (both parents work, higher cost to maintain for middle class, some countries no get enough benefits)
Contraceptives
Chemicals *

Endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) found in everyday items, including the plastics of food containers, personal care items, food products, as well as in manufacturing and industrial and agricultural processes.
Once released into the environment, exposure occurs via inhalation, absorbance, but mainly by ingestion from contaminated food and water. Most EDCs act via, interfere with, or mimic, steroid hormones – predominantly oestrogen and androgen pathways, or thyroid hormones.

Phytoestrogens,
Bisphenols/Phthalates (found in 90% of people, plastics, personal care products),
Parabens,
Persistant organic pollutants,
Pesticides/Herbices
Heavy metals
Fossil Fuels
EMF (mobile phones, microwaves, high power voltage lines, etc)

https://yourfertility.org.au/resource/the-effects-of-environmental-chemicals-on-fertility-and-fecundity/

Looks like a list of why we have expansion of cancer. Not related to birthrates at all. It is not that people can't have children, but they won't.

[RN97]

It's sorta funny how many people in western Europe see eastern Europe as the more "traditional Europe" that will preserve the European race. However just look at my two ethnic groups; Norwegian and Romanian. Norway has one of the highest birth rates, whilst Romania one of the lowest in Europe. Norway has lesser immigrants than Romania gypsies and they breed like rats while most immigrants (many of whom are eastern Europeans) don't have nearly as many kids as Gypsies in Romania. So Romanians are facing a growing number of gypsies, corruption, poverty and a low birth rate. IDK where the last bastion of Europeans is in eastern Europe, but certainly not in Romania or a lot of other EE countries for that matter.

[Jana]

East Europe has worse birth rate than west Europe overall. Reason there is money and lack of living space.

Stears and me want a child, but we live in one room flat and for child we need one extra room. In Budapest real estate is very expensive (unless you want to live in bad area). reaching western European levels and salaries are quite modest, even for people with University education.

Most young people live as renters. That's very unstable situation, if you get fired you end up on the street. We have our own beautiful apartment but it is too small for family of three.

I want children now (he does too), for a long time already, but simply there are no conditions for that yet. We hope in two year time we will be able to buy bigger apartment and start a family.

This is situation of most young professionals I know. Not to mention it is impossible ot survive on one salary, so women need to work even though many of us who finished college would prefer not to.

It is much harder to have children early now if you want to offer them secure and happy life. One is big problem, not to mention two or more! In countryside it may be easier. Urbanisation is killing birth rate, among other things.

[Cristiano viejo]

It's sorta funny how many people in western Europe see eastern Europe as the more "traditional Europe" that will preserve the European race. However just look at my two ethnic groups; Norwegian and Romanian. Norway has one of the highest birth rates, whilst Romania one of the lowest in Europe. Norway has lesser immigrants than Romania gypsies and they breed like rats while most immigrants (many of whom are eastern Europeans) don't have nearly as many kids as Gypsies in Romania. So Romanians are facing a growing number of gypsies, corruption, poverty and a low birth rate. IDK where the last bastion of Europeans is in eastern Europe, but certainly not in Romania or a lot of other EE countries for that matter.

Agreed... but it is the people in Eastern Europe who see Eastern Europe as the more "traditional Europe" that will preserve the European race, not the people of Western Europe. I am denouncing this since I dont remember it... Eastern Europe, with some notable exceptions, is equally fucked than Western Europe.

[Fieraru]

Is not the worst thing. Sometimes artificially maintained high birth rate can be bad for a country, as I have seen personally with orphans.
I don't think it will be a big problem in long run. Why you want everyone to have so many kids? Are you worried about competition or immigration from third-world country with growing populations?

But using policy to enforce or regulate birth rate is also not good: the one child policy in China cause a lot of problems. There are tens of million more men than women there.

[Livin]

The reason is the brainwashing of media, the feminism and the lefties. All of that related each other, of course.

Lefties?
Liberals are the main problem....!!!!

There are not left wing politicians in europe....exception Greece....!!!

[RN97]

Agreed... but it is the people in Eastern Europe who see Eastern Europe as the more "traditional Europe" that will preserve the European race, not the people of Western Europe. I am denouncing this since I dont remember it... Eastern Europe, with some notable exceptions, is equally fucked than Western Europe.

it's more fucked since it is poorer. However, most Romanians will agree with that assumption. Romanians from my experience tend to be more self deprecating and less about "I am ze numah ohane!!!". That's more other people from EE. However honestly Spain is more fucked IMO, it has more immigrants than Norway and is poorer, IDK how Spain did that TBH......

[Teutone]

Is not the worst thing. Sometimes artificially maintained high birth rate can be bad for a country, as I have seen personally with orphans.
I don't think it will be a big problem in long run. Why you want everyone to have so many kids? Are you worried about competition or immigration from third-world country with growing populations?

But using policy to enforce or regulate birth rate is also not good: the one child policy in China cause a lot of problems. There are tens of million more men than women there.

Our race is a minority on this planet and its getting worse, I dont want my ethnicity to etxtinct but expand.

I wouldnt mind a lower birthrate for africans and arabs tho

[Cristiano viejo]

Lefties?
Liberals are the main problem....!!!!

There are not left wing politicians in europe....exception Greece....!!!
Liberals and lefties are really the same.


it's more fucked since it is poorer. However, most Romanians will agree with that assumption. Romanians from my experience tend to be more self deprecating and less about "I am ze numah ohane!!!". That's more other people from EE. However honestly Spain is more fucked IMO, it has more immigrants than Norway and is poorer, IDK how Spain did that TBH......
Four days ago they gave the stadistics of the Spanish population. Immigrants make the 10,1 % of the population... and that because they are coming to Spain again thanks the better state of our economy...

http://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-poblacion-espanola-crece-primera-5-anos-hasta-466-millones-aumento-extranjeros-201804241326_noticia.html

[Teutone]

Liberals and lefties are really the same.


Four days ago they gave the stadistics of the Spanish population. Immigrants make the 10,1 % of the population... and that because they are coming to Spain again thanks the better state of our economy...

http://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-poblacion-espanola-crece-primera-5-anos-hasta-466-millones-aumento-extranjeros-201804241326_noticia.html

Is it possible in Spain that a right-wing party can finally establish there?

[Cristiano viejo]

Is it possible in Spain that a right-wing party can finally establish there?

Theorically the government is a right-wing party...

If you mean a patriot party, for the moment it is difficult. Here people focus in that the left does not reach the power, and people prefer to vote this party that currently rules Spain rather than true patriot parties, which exists (VOX, Democracia Nacional, España2000...) but are irrelevant.

[Dragoon]

From any medium/large countries in Europe the birth rates are roughly the same if you count European natives.

If they have larger its probably because of Non-Europeans. Highest ferility rates from those:

France
Sweden
UK
Russia

All have significant percentage of nonethnic: French, Swedes, English/Scots, Russians.
And they are all still below required levels.

Eugenics was popular with Socialist and Liberals (later 19th century to early 20th century and beyond). After all they loved to promote eugenics and depopulation.

Where did eugenics originate well UK and US. Fabian Socialists were pushing for many things Liberals continue to push for (universal health care, minimum income, etc). They supported things like sterilization originally.

In the early history of the Soviets: "Religious marriage was replaced by civil marriage, divorce became easy to obtain, and unwed mothers received special protection. All children, whether legitimate or illegitimate, were given equal rights before the law, women were granted sexual equality under matrimonial law, inheritance of property was abolished, and abortion was legalized." Wow that sounds like USA after 1960s in most ways.

Adolf Hitler of National Socialists borrowed and even copied many Liberal and Socialist ideas from US/UK.

In the UK Liberal Capitalists Keynesians and Fabian Socialists supported eugenics. Keynes was a member of British Eugenics society. He was a bisexual.
In the US the father of Eugenics in America was aided by Carnegie-Mellon and Rockefeller. They also happened to aid Nazi Germany.

Later Kissinger advocated depopulation. Today eugenics continues with birth control, abortions, and in its newest way transhumanism.

[zhaoyun]

This is just a natural progression of industrialized societies. People spend a lot of time on personal and career growth and put off having kids. Also, the cost of living is very high as well.

[Dandelion]

This is just a natural progression of industrialized societies. People spend a lot of time on personal and career growth and put off having kids. Also, the cost of living is very high as well.

True. Even theocratic Iran is suffering from it.

[Thracian]

Why an educated young person would have a baby? No more freedom after kids.

[Dragoon]

Why an educated young person would have a baby? No more freedom after kids.

If they are so "educated" why do they want to just end their family line and ignore the future? Assuming they have no kids
If those "educated" are so smart why do they have babies at older age which increases chance of health problems for both female and child health especially at 30+?

[Joso]

Why an educated young person would have a baby? No more freedom after kids.

You are right. Having a family is not necessary. And nowadays it is even less necessary

[Ylla]

I think the main reason is a high cost of living. I just recently bought my house but I had big help from my parents. It's almost impossible to own a house under 30s and you have to consider other costs that even a baby will need nevermind when they are older.

Another reason will be that it's more difficult to raise children when couples are living alone. Before couples shared houses with parents and the grandparents usually help to look after the child. Children are raised by a community/big family which is much cheaper and better because you can share time and resources.


Someone briefly mentioned maturity, I agree with that so much young adults can't handle the responsibility and hard work compared to our grandparents generations because we want a comfortable, stress-free life.

But not everyone wants to have children and that is their right. The world has become more complex with more opportunities, people have other things to do, projects, work, hobbies, sometimes they want to dedicate their life to something they are passionate about.
Life can be enjoyable and meaningful in many ways :)

And I truly think if the regions with high birth rates had more money and better economy, more opportunities, the birth rate will decrease also because there is much more to do with life so you dont have to follow the conventional way of living.

[Dibran]

I think the main reason is a high cost of living. I just recently bought my house but I had big help from my parents. It's almost impossible to own a house under 30s and you have to consider other costs that even a baby will need nevermind when they are older.

Another reason will be that it's more difficult to raise children when couples are living alone. Before couples shared houses with parents and the grandparents usually help to look after the child. Children are raised by a community/big family which is much cheaper and better because you can share time and resources.


Someone briefly mentioned maturity, I agree with that so much young adults can't handle the responsibility and hard work compared to our grandparents generations.

Im fortunate enough(at least for now) that my home is split with a downstairs apartment walled off. When I do get married eventually, its a nice setup due to the privacy, but also closeness it provides for family, and the other points you mentioned. It's also difficult because there hasn't been a rise in wages, despite a rise in taxes and cost of living. Opportunities are not as frequent, and people are working harder for a decent life than they used to have to. In the 80s it just took a pizzeria for family to be taken care of with a roof over their heads. Now, that doesn't get you anything. So in the persuit of higher paying careers, the necessity for family life is pushed to the wayside. At least in the United States.

[Joso]

If they are so "educated" why do they want to just end their family line and ignore the future? Assuming they have no kids
If those "educated" are so smart why do they have babies at older age which increases chance of health problems for both female and child health especially at 30+?

I understand you but in fact, no one needs to build a family to be happy.

[Catarinense1998]

Contraception, the demands of modern life, the growing importance of careers, lack of incentives, in no particular order

Perfect.

[Teucer]

Perfect.

Aha, thanks

[de Burgh II]

Job stability, career pursuits, rising costs, destruction of the importance of the nuclear family, debt, etc.

[Norb]

Teutone, I would like to know why you think Europe has a low birthrate? what is your reason

[Gediminas]

to be blunt, Children are a burden in the modern world.