U152 in Scotland

[Gwydion]

What is the most likely explanation of U152 origin in Scotland and Britain more generally? Seems U152 is associated with the Italo-Celtic groups, and L2 in particular seems more Celtic and Northern oriented. Seems U152 in Scotland is concentrated more in the East, as is generally the case in England though certain hot spots exist more West (Westmorland.)

From what I've read, La Tene Celts/Gauls/Belgae would be the most likely origin of U152 in Britain. What would be the most likely origin of the specifically Scottish U152 though?

Since the Gauls spoke a P-Celtic tongue and Brythonic is often associated with the spread of La Tene culture, can we assume that perhaps the original P-Celtic/Brythonic Britons were U152 carriers who, perhaps through elite dominance in Southeastern Britain and Scotland, spread the P-Celtic languages?

[Gwydion]

Rather than start a new thread, are there any theories on the presence of U152 in Scandinavia? Something chalked up to later immigration or could there be an ancient source, perhaps Celtic immigration or traders? Is it possible that the Angles and later the Danes/Norse may have carried some U152 into Britain, particularly Scotland?

[Token]

Migration from Gaul, possibly some were carried by the Bell Beakers into the isles already in the Bronze Age.

[Graham]

Migration from Gaul, possibly some were carried by the Bell Beakers into the isles already in the Bronze Age.

From the massive amount of bell beaker I don't think any are u-152, yet. But they found it in iron age Roman Britain.

[Sikeliot]

What is the most likely explanation of U152 origin in Scotland and Britain more generally? Seems U152 is associated with the Italo-Celtic groups, and L2 in particular seems more Celtic and Northern oriented. Seems U152 in Scotland is concentrated more in the East, as is generally the case in England though certain hot spots exist more West (Westmorland.)

From what I've read, La Tene Celts/Gauls/Belgae would be the most likely origin of U152 in Britain. What would be the most likely origin of the specifically Scottish U152 though?

Since the Gauls spoke a P-Celtic tongue and Brythonic is often associated with the spread of La Tene culture, can we assume that perhaps the original P-Celtic/Brythonic Britons were U152 carriers who, perhaps through elite dominance in Southeastern Britain and Scotland, spread the P-Celtic languages?


R1b-U152 might have come to Britain with Belgic peoples who were related to/ancestral to some of the Celts in Britain. This is more of a true Italo-Celtic subclade than the subclade common to Ireland.

[Gwydion]

Well doing some research on my own it does seem the most common view is the expansion of the La Tene/Belgic Celts into Scotland, perhaps some connection with the Arras culture of Yorkshire, perhaps direct introduction from Gaul. A citation:

The scarcity of R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152 and I2a2a-M223 lineages in the modern populations of the British Isles and Iberia – where Celtic languages had clearly spread by the time of the Roman invasion – appear to suggest a successful cultural diffusion of the language from warring Celtic minorities who established new chiefdoms throughout Europe.

https://indo-european.info/ie/Celtic

The appearance of La Tene culture (such as glass armlets) and vitrified forts in Iron Age Scotland seems to point to the appearance of P-Celts/Brythons/Picts from the continent.

Other possible points of entry would seem to be Belgic/Gaulish auxiliaries in the Roman army (don't know if they would have expanded into Scotland though) and medieval settlement of Normans and Flemish.

Just suppose I find it surprising. My paternal line is Scottish (surname of Kerr) and the name is generally assumed to be of Norse origin, but perhaps the other proposed Cumbric etymology (Caer for castle, fort, city, etc.) might be true in my case. So it seems my ancestor was likely a Briton of the Hen Ogledd or a Pict rather than a Norse or Gael.

Not sure how I feel about it.

https://i.imgur.com/IPZn9Sx.png

[Petalpusher]

There were a bunch of U152 in various BB

-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE
-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE
-I0805 BB_Central_Europe Quedlinburg Germany, U152>PF6658 2467-2142
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany Mean of 2150 BCE
-RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE

https://tof.cx/images/2018/05/06/6dc60594c94d496e05b50e26ff699987.png

[Graham]

There were a bunch of U152 in various BB


No L21 on continent and no u152 in Bb Britain found so far. Wonder what the division was if any or maybe just not found yet.