Classifiy Gheddafi

[Tony]

http://media.panorama.it/media/foto/2009/08/26/4a952cc7a0f4f_zoom.jpg

http://blog.panorama.it/foto/files/2011/02/gheddafi-30-large.jpg

http://www.fulvioscaglione.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/gheddgiov2.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaddafis-rule-timeline/gaddafi72.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/2/21/1298300692936/1971-Libyan-leader-Muamma-024.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01833/27-September-1969-_1833164i.jpg

http://www.friendburst.com/file/pic/photo/2011/02/Joko_Londo-gaddafi-01-2_500.jpg?t=4d6301d527683

[The Lawspeaker]

Line-him-up-in-front-of-the-firing-squadoid.

[StonyArabia]

Berberid.

[Marino]

Atlanto-Mediterranid/South-Mediterranid and Cromagnid (Berberid?)

[aureus]

Atlanto-Mediterranid/South-Mediterranid and Cromagnid (Berberid?)

I agree

[Foxy]

Atlanto-Mediterranid/South-Mediterranid and Cromagnid (Berberid?)

ATLANTO???? :eek:

[Agrippa]

(Dark) Berberid with South Mediterranid.

I heard his ancestry is Bedu, yet he does look like a typical Berber-variant in my opinion.

His daughter Aisha:

http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/ks_Aisha_Gaddafi_D_1297605z.jpg

http://dinahlord.typepad.com/.a/6a00e008d9a3f988340120a596d9ad970b-320wi

His son Hannibal:
http://www.highfish.at/images/Hannibal_Gaddafi.jpg

http://www.heute.at/storage/scl/footage/mediathek/news/welt/libyen/239794_m0w580h380q75s1v25059_hannibal_gaddafi.jpg

His wife Safya Gaddafi:
http://leaksource.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/safiya.jpg?w=245&h=245

He has 8 children (officially) and one adopted daughter died during an US attack.

Most of his chidren look fully Europid, some more European, some less, but his oldest son looks the most exotic:
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01323/gaddafi_Mohammed_M_1323110p.jpg

Almost like having this Khoisano-Negroid component present in some North Africans, but only slightly. In any case less harmonious than the siblings.

[aureus]

A lot of North African who consider themselves as Bedouin or from arab origin are generally just acculturate berbers.

[Sikeliot]

Berberid/Saharid

[StonyArabia]

(Dark) Berberid with South Mediterranid.

I heard his ancestry is Bedu, yet he does look like a typical Berber-variant in my opinion.

The Bedouin ancestry is over rated in North Africa, most often it is based on myths and legends with a romantic touch. It does not have genetic reality. The Arab impact is weak in North Africa. They only adopted the culture of the Arabians and language. Also several Berber tribes created myths and legends to enhance themselves often claiming Yemenite origins and especially to the ancient ruling dynasties such as Himyarites.

[aureus]

The Bedouin ancestry is over rated in North Africa, most often it is based on myths and legends with a romantic touch. It does not have genetic reality. The Arab impact is weak in North Africa. They only adopted the culture of the Arabians and language. Also several Berber tribes created myths and legends to enhance themselves often claiming Yemenite origins and especially to the ancient ruling dynasties such as Himyarites.

But I must say Libya is much more arabised than far western regions,
population is mixed between berber substratum, tribes on composite base of berbers and orientals (such arabised egyptians) and bedouin groups from arab peninsula which attracted and attached elements would have being bound by submission or prestigious search.
The main zone of claiming berber population is on the west in Nefusa.

[Saruman]

Yes Berberid with Mediterranid. I think on ancient paintings Lybians were depicted as quite light pigmented, probably representing Berberid type, or their light variant.
But the question is, if bedouin influence is rather low in a country such as Lybia, how strong is sub-saharan component? What does it mean genetically for population? Could we say that there are millions of European-like peoples in Northern Africa not only by phenotype but who are also genetically clearly Europid, if not European-like?

[Don]

Originally Posted by Marino
Atlanto-Mediterranid/South-Mediterranid and Cromagnid (Berberid?)


I agree


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/BMoney/RETARDEDPEOPLE.png

A "westerner european" or the "atlantic" in the left . :P

[StonyArabia]

Yes Berberid with Mediterranid. I think on ancient paintings Lybians were depicted as quite light pigmented, probably representing Berberid type, or their light variant.

Most Libyans attribute light features to Greek blood, not Berber. The Berbers in Libya are dark featured. The Egyptian might have used it as symbolism for example. We don't know much about the painting for example if they are actually accurate.


But the question is, if bedouin influence is rather low in a country such as Lybia, how strong is sub-saharan component?

The Bedouin component is weak. As for the Sub-Saharan component that depends on the location and tribes. For example Southern Libya is mostly a Tibo and Toureg region, these people are in fact admixed with Sub-Saharan peoples. The Libyan Berbers and Arabs are typical dark Caucasians. The Berbers of Western Libya tend to be taller than the average Arab Libyans, which include their women as well. Libyan Arabs tend to be short for some reason. However Berbers being lighter than their Arab counterpart is myth. They usually have about the same skin tone. Blondism is not seen in Libya among it's Berbers for example. However blondim is heavily seen in the Kabyle region of Algeria. Blondism and light eyes show themselves in the East and often attributed by Libyans to Greek blood. Greek blood is very deep in North Africa, a forgotten chapter.



What does it mean genetically for population? Could we say that there are millions of European-like peoples in Northern Africa not only by phenotype but who are also genetically clearly Europid, if not European-like?

Libyans for the most part are Arabized Berbers genetically this seen by most genetic studies so far. There is not much European like people in North Africa, except in the enclaves or regions that had heavy Roman, Vandal, and Greek settlements. Most North Africans look typical North Africans. As well the slavery of Europeans played very important look on the coastal regions of North Africa. Most North Africans tend to be slightly darker than Southern Euros, and Levantines are lighter than them for example. So far the purest North Africans are the Mozabite of Algeria, and most often this why they are used in all DNA companies for the estimation of North African admixture.

Mozabites

http://i55.tinypic.com/2ij0s2u.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/s5xs8o.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/2hcfeol.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2qv5hr4.jpg

[Curtis24]

Note: this is completely off-topic

It is very interesting to see how, in a non-Western society, high-status men still have huge amounts of children. Gadhafi has *allegedly* 8 children already. And, of course, Gadhafi could have even more bastards running around that no one knows about...

The contrast with Western society is striking. Could you ever imagine Barack Obama having 8+ children with different women?

I often wonder which system is better. Obviously, you'd want someone like Einstein to have as many kids as possible. At the same time, you have hyper-aggresive, psychotic-type personalities that would also be spreading their bad genes - such as Gadhafi.

[aureus]

Libyans for the most part are Arabized Berbers genetically this seen by most genetic studies so far. There is not much European like people in North Africa, except in the enclaves or regions that had heavy Roman, Vandal, and Greek settlements. Most North Africans look typical North Africans. As well the slavery of Europeans played very important look on the coastal regions of North Africa. Most North Africans tend to be slightly darker than Southern Euros, and Levantines are lighter than them for example. So far the purest North Africans are the Mozabite of Algeria, and most often this why they are used in all DNA companies for the estimation of North African admixture.



Romain had a long period of occupation, with African provinces participating completely in the rest of the Empire, what leads a romanisation in various degrees of Berber natives. In any case spending time the fund of the population participating in the Roman civilization consisted of a majority of romanised berbers. When Romain left, that is that romanised population who did not leave North Africa joined little by little the Berber populations which, not likened, lived beyond limes and invades all territories.
Vandals left only very few tracks, they little mixed and were concentrated in Carthage.
The Greeks (Byzantine, wich were called Roums as the continuation of Romain) never became very established and had to count with independent tribes and Berber kingdoms.
Moreover when the Arabs arrived those one were fast swept and it is Berber tribes which draw up themselves in front of new invaders.

All this to say, even by considering that the Greeks or Romain counted clear elements of skin or eyes, it is enough to explain the existence of these characteristics within the Berber people.
As said before, Egyptians already represented the Berber as light of skin compared with themselves and others surrounding race , Nubian or Syrian.
And we find clear individuals to the Atlas where it not had Roman or Greek or whatever presence.

Mozabites are a special population of Zenetes berbers wich practice a islamic sect, the kharidjisme, and which kept refuge by successive jumps in a little convenient place of Sahara.There they evolved in closed environment, with few exchanges and many consanguine marriages ( very introverted community). As their territory offer only few resources, men leave to trading somewhere else, they open shops and deal, but send back gain in their country, where stay their women.
They are small and of olive teint,and tend to have some stoutness
It is a community having evolved in closed circle, not representative of all the Berbers.

[Troll's Puzzle]

In his younger years I think he makes quite a good comparison ye olde Afalou so-called "cro-mag" like skull from Algeria
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaddafis-rule-timeline/gaddafi72.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/chapter-II-plate3a.jpg

as he's older he looks like he has more 'capoid' influence (only a little bit though), maybe it's just age but those features are not uncommon in north africa, Coon thought that his so called 'capoid' group occupied most of africa before being squeezed out into perepheral deserts in the north & south of africa by newer types.
http://justjournalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/gaddafi.jpghttp://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1340/african5bw5.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Romain had a long period of occupation, with African provinces participating completely in the rest of the Empire, what leads a romanisation in various degrees of Berber natives. In any case spending time the fund of the population participating in the Roman civilization consisted of a majority of romanised berbers. When Romain left, that is that romanised population who did not leave North Africa joined little by little the Berber populations which, not likened, lived beyond limes and invades all territories.
Vandals left only very few tracks, they little mixed and were concentrated in Carthage.

No doubt there was Romanized natives in the region, however there was Roman settlement in the region. The Vandals did leave a mark on the North African population. This why we find the Y-DNA I which is common among people who have Viking blood. Tunisians for example are mostly altered by Levantine admixture, and this why they are the most Levantine North Africans. This began with the Phoenicians and continued to early medieval age.



The Greeks (Byzantine, wich were called Roums as the continuation of Romain) never became very established and had to count with independent tribes and Berber kingdoms.
Moreover when the Arabs arrived those one were fast swept and it is Berber tribes which draw up themselves in front of new invaders.

That is true, the Berbers were the people who resisted the Arab invasion the most. The Arabs could not conquer the Berbers easily as they have done with the Persians and the Byzantines. Some of the Berbers were allied with the Byzantines. The first Arab invasion left almost no genetic trace on the region. Many of the Arab forces were in fact of Syrian origins. However many of the Berber tribes began to claim themselves to descent from the ancient Yemenite ruling class to enhance their power. The Lumanta was such tribe. They were responsible for the Alomahads and Almovarid dynasties. The second Arab invasion is that of the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulyman Arabian tribes. There was famine in Arabia. Also the Zirid Berbers defected from the Fatamids by taking Sunni Islam, and so as a punishment the warlike Arabian tribes especially the Banu Hilal were made to invade the region. They defeated the Zirids and Arabized a large segment of the population. The Hilali invasion brought women and children in North Africa, and thus we seem some mtDNA that were not present in the region to have been introduced into the North African gene pool. Most of the Hilali influence was cultural and not a genetic one. The Hilalis never made it to Morocco. Moroccans for example are still the Berber E sub-clad over 80%. The J1 lineages in North Africa does not match well with the Arabian ones on the contrary to the Levantine and Mesopotamian ones that do. The J1 of North Africans is similar to that of the Guanche remains.


All this to say, even by considering that the Greeks or Romain counted clear elements of skin or eyes, it is enough to explain the existence of these characteristics within the Berber people.
As said before, Egyptians already represented the Berber as light of skin compared with themselves and others surrounding race , Nubian or Syrian.
And we find clear individuals to the Atlas where it not had Roman or Greek or whatever presence.

That is true those characteristics are both native and not native. They appear after all in Caucasoid groups. Blondism is even seen as far as India for example, when it does not have to be introduced by Europeans. The Libyans for example attribute those features to Greek and Roman blood. For example Greek settlements in Libya occurred during the rise of the Greek civilization. As well many Greeks of Cretan blood settled in Libya in the Ottoman times and often intermarried with the locals. In the Atlas you see very interesting phenotypes especially in Morocco where you have people almost have a Mongoloid type faces. The Berbers of Libya for example don't show much blondism unlike Algeria's Kabyle region for example.


Mozabites are a special population of Zenetes berbers wich practice a islamic sect, the kharidjisme, and which kept refuge by successive jumps in a little convenient place of Sahara.There they evolved in closed environment, with few exchanges and many consanguine marriages ( very introverted community). As their territory offer only few resources, men leave to trading somewhere else, they open shops and deal, but send back gain in their country, where stay their women.
They are small and of olive teint,and tend to have some stoutness
It is a community having evolved in closed circle, not representative of all the Berbers.

Geneticists believe the Mozabites are the best to quantify North African admixture in population, since they are the purest ones. Many Mozabite score 100% North African. This why they are used as reference by all genetic tests so far. In fact the majority of them do. Some of them of course have some minimal foreign admix. Indeed they seem to have evolved into a desert environment. Of course the Berbers are diverse people and it would actually be interesting to learn more about them. They have always fascinated me.

[aherne]

I think he looks totally Berber. Semitic racial influence is weak in Africa outside Ethiopia and Egypt. Racially he is a combination of East Mediterannean and Afalou Cro-Magnid. His body type and face form are inherited from EM side, whereas his facial features are mostly ACM tribute.

[AntonyCapolongo]

Atlanto-Mediterranid

Lol !!!!

[blan]

In his younger years I think he makes quite a good comparison ye olde Afalou so-called "cro-mag" like skull from Algeria
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaddafis-rule-timeline/gaddafi72.jpghttp://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/chapter-II-plate3a.jpg

as he's older he looks like he has more 'capoid' influence (only a little bit though), maybe it's just age but those features are not uncommon in north africa, Coon thought that his so called 'capoid' group occupied most of africa before being squeezed out into perepheral deserts in the north & south of africa by newer types.
http://justjournalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/gaddafi.jpghttp://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1340/african5bw5.jpg

the older he gets the more mulatto he looks, interesting how so many of his children look to be of a more pure caucasian lineage.

[Curtis24]

Coon thought that his so called 'capoid' group occupied most of africa before being squeezed out into perepheral deserts in the north & south of africa by newer types.


Yeah, Coon also suggested that(but it wasn't hard theory), that during this process, Mediterranoids and Capoids mated with each other to create Negroids/"blacks". Interesting idea...

[Agrippa]

Yeah, Coon also suggested that(but it wasn't hard theory), that during this process, Mediterranoids and Capoids mated with each other to create Negroids/"blacks". Interesting idea...

Genetically there is some truth in this, because there are two groups which are genetically even more archaic than Negrids in Africa, Bambutids (Pygmies) and Khoisanids (Bushmen, Hottentots).

Both show racially some very primitive traits too, especially the Bambutids.

Now Negrids seem to be more mixed, having more of a more progressive East African-Eurasian input in comparison than those two and among Negrids, those which are more progressive, have usually most of the Afrasian input.

Even the classic Negrids (Sudanid) have still more of it than the more primitive Palaenegrids, which in turn are closer to Bambutids.

[Tony]

Line-him-up-in-front-of-the-firing-squadoid.
Don't get fooled by the imperialism of good intentions , we shouldn't mess with stuff that aren't our business , let's keep them kill each other instead.

[The Lawspeaker]

Don't get fooled by the imperialism of good intentions , we shouldn't mess with stuff that aren't our business , let's keep them kill each other instead.
We should not line him :) But I damn well hope that the Libyans do it. :thumb001:

[Artek]

Cameloid
http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef014e5f5bbb7a970c-800wi

[Curtis24]

Genetically there is some truth in this, because there are two groups which are genetically even more archaic than Negrids in Africa, Bambutids (Pygmies) and Khoisanids (Bushmen, Hottentots).

Both show racially some very primitive traits too, especially the Bambutids.

Now Negrids seem to be more mixed, having more of a more progressive East African-Eurasian input in comparison than those two and among Negrids, those which are more progressive, have usually most of the Afrasian input.

Even the classic Negrids (Sudanid) have still more of it than the more primitive Palaenegrids, which in turn are closer to Bambutids.

How do the Y-DNAs match up(between Near-eastern people and Sub-Saharan Africans?)

[Agrippa]

How do the Y-DNAs match up(between Near-eastern people and Sub-Saharan Africans?)

There are two very important, clearly Afrasian-related expansions of yDNA-haplotypes into Africa.

1st E1b1b1:
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1.png

2nd R1b1a (R-V88):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA).PNG/800px-Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA).PNG

These two are pretty clear cases, but others might too come from the Saharan-East African regions, closer related to Eurasians and bringing in new genes and phenotypical traits.

[Ugo Tognazzi]

Quite a good looking bloke when young..now looks like an aged rockstar.


I have another question, looking at Gheddafi's daughter
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/ks_Aisha_Gaddafi_D_1297605z.jpg

I noticed in her an element i see in man north african but also middle eastern women is a certain tendency to have a full face, with full cheecks, and a certain fleshiness.

for example while in Italy many north africans are slim and tall (though with a consistent ''heafty'' minority), a large majority of north african women show these fleshy traits even in their teens.

can everybody or Agrippa can explain me why?

[Peasant]

Is there a book written about Gheddafi's life and his bizarre habits yet?

[Gamera]

He also has a personal guard of virgin women, trained to kill (I wonder if the blonde one, is fully Libyan? I guess she must be):

http://www.sandraoffthestrip.com/wp-content/uploads/beautiful-sexy-Gaddafis-Women-amazons-3_thumb2.jpg

http://www.friendburst.com/file/pic/photo/2011/02/Joko_Londo-gaddafi-female-bodyguards2.jpg

[aureus]

Which pack of stupidities..

Just :
afalou -> Mechtoïdes -> capsians
and in other side (Europe)-> cromagnoïdes-> I don't care

Later mediterraneans arrived, in Europe as in North Africa

[aureus]

Afalu

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/7240/1afalou0nm.jpg

Mechta el arbi

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/6662/1mechta9ht.jpg

Mechtoïde / Capsian

http://www.mondeberbere.com/histoire/camps/cranes.jpg

The dichotomy Capsiens / Mechtoïodes of which we took advantage is not any more acceptable, we know that it had gracilisation of mechtoïdes and that all the capsiens were not as well slight as we believed it.

To be more complete :

Ternifine -> Afalu / Mechtoïdes,
a local evolution

[Aviane]

Berberid is probably the closest for him.

[aureus]

Berberid is probably the closest for him.

I have pics of his parents, I do not know if I shall put them.
Contrary to what I said, if his mother is obviously berberid I have to say that his father has a more arabic aspect even if it is not evident (and that could explain feature of his idiot son Seif el islam)

[Smeagol]

Berberid with South Mediterranid influence.

[Sharkeatpeople]

Berbero-S.Med