Eupedia Map of Slavic Y-DNA

[Peterski]

Maciamo made a new map, what do you think about it?:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#Slavic

https://i.imgur.com/EoaYHtI.png

[Wrong]

Maciamo made a new map:


The map is as white as the background.

[Kouros]

The map is as white as the background.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png

[Wrong]

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png
Yeah it appeared now, thanks.

[Peterski]

Is it still invisible in my opening post?

[Kelmendasi]

..

[Wrong]

Is it still invisible in my opening post?
Now it works.

[Wrong]

That map looks weird, Maciamo included J2b2a, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 clades lol http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/xd.gif
LOL

[Peterski]

Maciamo included J2b2a, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 clades lol

No, I don't think so, he didn't include them: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36038-New-map-of-Slavic-Y-DNA

He just wrote that some subclades of these haplogroups may also be associated with Slavic migrations.

On the other hand, he wrote that he included R1a-Z92 but I think it is a typo. Z92 is rather a Baltic type of R1a. His map doesn't show much of Slavic Y-DNA in Lithuania and Latvia, so he probably did not include Z92 (and rightfully so, most of Z92 is Baltic).

See also my post here, I listed Slavic Y-DNA: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?240328-Slavic-identity-in-Slavic-speaking-countries/page4&p=5062865#post5062865

[Kelmendasi]

LOL
Seems like I misread lol, he says that they could be Slavic but due to a lack of evidence he didn't include them

[Wrong]

"Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included." -Maciamo

[Kelmendasi]

No, he didn't include them:

He just wrote that some subclades of these haplogroups may also be associated with Slavic migrations:
Yh I checked again and saw that

[Ülev]

Belarus is Polish (Smolensk too)

[Kelmendasi]

Seems like Kosovar Albanians have less Slavic Ydna than Albanians from Albania, this just debunks the claim that Kosovar Albs have a high amount of Slavic input

[Wrong]

Seems like Kosovar Albanians have less Slavic Ydna than Albanians from Albania, this just debunks the claim that Kosovar Albs have a high amount of Slavic input
The map doesn't seem to take FYROM Albanians into account.

Yet again mtDNA should not be ignored.

[Peterski]

Seems like Kosovar Albanians have less Slavic Ydna than Albanians from Albania

Yeah it is a bit weird, isn't it?

[Kelmendasi]

The map doesn't seem to take FYROM Albanians into account.
It doesn't take Montenegrin Albs from the east of Montenegro into account either

[Wrong]

It doesn't take Montenegrin Albs from the east of Montenegro into account either
And Albanian highlanders from the deep north of Albania. IIRC these were very little Slavic-influenced by yDNA as with Kosovars.

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah it is a bit weird, isn't it?
Not really sure, could just be because of things like breeding biases, founder effects etc causing certain haplogroups to dominate certain regions

[Wrong]

Not really sure, could just be because of things like breeding biases, founder effects etc causing certain haplogroups to dominate certain regions
Never seen a FYROM-Albanian score Slavic yDNA so far(including me).

[Kelmendasi]

And Albanian highlanders from the deep north of Albania. IIRC these were very little Slavic-influenced by yDNA as with Kosovars.
Yh there Slavic Ydna is extremely rare although this also contradicts what some people think about northern Albs and how they are Slavs in origin

[Aren]

This one?

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png

[Dick]

He forgot I1. A lot of I1 south slavs have polish and Belarusian matches

[Peterski]

This one?

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Slavic_Europe.png

Yes. You couldn't see it in my opening post? I think I will just upload it to Imgur and replace the link.

[Dick]

Yes. You couldn't see it in my opening post? I think I will just upload it to Imgur and replace the link.

Do you have any info on sorbs

[Dibran]

He forgot I1. A lot of I1 south slavs have polish and Belarusian matches

I guess it depends on the clade. The problem is Maciamo suffers a little from similar bias as others. Since I1 is predominantly Germanic, its probably why he excludes Slavic founder clades in I1 that may have come with the migration. Even if rare. Which is strange since he goes so far as to mention J2b E-V13 and R1b having their Slavic clades. I guess it all depends on his sources.

[Dibran]

Yh there Slavic Ydna is extremely rare although this also contradicts what some people think about northern Albs and how they are Slavs in origin

It may occur atypically in the Northern clans. That's it really. Kosova seems to have the least input.

[Crn Volk]

Interesting how Greek Macedonia and Thrace is just as Slavic as R Macedonia and Bulgaria

[Fieraru]

Man this is map is bs :rolleyes:

[Art23]

Well, it is a very optimistic maps for Slavs with "Slavic" Germany, Austria, Albania, Greece, Romania, even Turkey. :D

[Sikeliot]

Well, it is a very optimistic maps for Slavs with "Slavic" Germany, Austria, Albania, Greece, Romania, even Turkey. :D

It just means that these populations absorbed Slavic peoples into their gene pool. What is clear is Slavic y-dna is almost absent in Western Europe and that it does not extend far past Germany, and the Adriatic was a barrier to its carrying over into Italy.

Interestingly, the Apulia/Lucania area of Italy (which has a lot of Greek and Arbereshe people) have the highest Slavic y-dna in Italy, if you look closely, but otherwise, it's pretty much absent there.

[Leto]

It just means that these populations absorbed Slavic peoples into their gene pool. What is clear is Slavic y-dna is almost absent in Western Europe and that it does not extend far past Germany, and the Adriatic was a barrier to its carrying over into Italy.

Interestingly, the Apulia/Lucania area of Italy (which has a lot of Greek and Arbereshe people) have the highest Slavic y-dna in Italy, if you look closely, but otherwise, it's pretty much absent there.
What is your subclade?

[Dibran]

What is your subclade?

Her hasn't tested past the basic level I think.

[Kouros]

What is considered Slacic Y-DNA on this map?

Asking because Crete doesnt have Slavic Y-DNA and a significant portion of I in Greece is I1 or I2a2. Cretan I is i2*-B.

[Dibran]

What is considered Slacic Y-DNA on this map?

Asking because Crete doesnt have Slavic Y-DNA and a significant portion of I in Greece is I1 or I2a2. Cretan I is i2*-B.

I think its just a broad estimation. I don't see how Crete has that much. even the heat map indicated by color that its 15-20 percent which seems ridiculous. If so, probably movement from the mainland. Many like to claim that some Slavic Pirates settled the coast during the migration period, though Idk how true that is

[Coolguy1]

Lol at people taking this map seriously. Any random person can create a map in 5 minutes and post it and peope will consider it the bible.

[ovidiu]

It's not that bad actually. But again it's just an estimation based on this guy's available data, coupled with his ideas of which clades constitute this kind of influence.

[Kouros]

I think its just a broad estimation. I don't see how Crete has that much. even the heat map indicated by color that its 15-20 percent which seems ridiculous. If so, probably movement from the mainland. Many like to claim that some Slavic Pirates settled the coast during the migration period, though Idk how true that is

I agree but there was hardly any migration from the mainland to Crete but there were migrations from Crete to Peloponnese.

Byzantines used to exile barbarians to Crete but never Slavs or Vlachs.

[Tauromachos]

It just means that these populations absorbed Slavic peoples into their gene pool. What is clear is Slavic y-dna is almost absent in Western Europe and that it does not extend far past Germany, and the Adriatic was a barrier to its carrying over into Italy.

Interestingly, the Apulia/Lucania area of Italy (which has a lot of Greek and Arbereshe people) have the highest Slavic y-dna in Italy, if you look closely, but otherwise, it's pretty much absent there.


Yeah ok

Rest of South Italy has 0-1% they have maybe 4-8%

Makes me laugh hard :lol:

[Peterski]

Y-DNA on Crete:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg

[Dibran]

I agree but there was hardly any migration from the mainland to Crete but there were migrations from Crete to Peloponnese.

Byzantines used to exile barbarians to Crete but never Slavs or Vlachs.

Didn't the Byzantines call Slavs Barbarians? I thought they were grouped with the rest. Even then it still seems high. I think a recent paper mentioned slavic ydna combine only reached 4-7 percent in Crete. It still seems strange also, considering he states in his explanation that some clades of M458, and most of Z280 are Slavic. Yet, He doesn't mention what clades that apply. Not all of them anyway.

[Dibran]

Y-DNA on Crete:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg

Yuo 8 percent. Not far from a paper I read that mentioned 7 percent. They have a bit of Z93 too though. So, I imagine its even lower. Yet the map says 15-20 percent?

Regarding I, I thought most I in Crete is of the I2a2a variety? Which seems Balkan(depending on the clade) and or Germanic(in some instances).

[Peterski]

"The Slavic Elements in the Cretan Vocabulary" (in Polish; English Summary):

http://www.academia.edu/6878626/The_Slavic_Elements_in_the_Cretan_Vocabulary_in_Po lish_English_Summary_

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/1khxn2w14w3pu3v9/images/19-d0c31ef664.jpg

[Sikeliot]

What is considered Slacic Y-DNA on this map?

Asking because Crete doesnt have Slavic Y-DNA and a significant portion of I in Greece is I1 or I2a2. Cretan I is i2*-B.

Cretan y-dna having Slavic affinities might be migration from mainland Greece.

[Art23]

It just means that these populations absorbed Slavic peoples into their gene pool. What is clear is Slavic y-dna is almost absent in Western Europe and that it does not extend far past Germany, and the Adriatic was a barrier to its carrying over into Italy.

Interestingly, the Apulia/Lucania area of Italy (which has a lot of Greek and Arbereshe people) have the highest Slavic y-dna in Italy, if you look closely, but otherwise, it's pretty much absent there.

Well, I would say that many Y DNA designed as Slavic had appeared long before Slavs appeared. Slavs were firstly mentioned only in VI century, ca. 1500 years ago.

Interestingly, as R1a I have no matches in Italy. But I have a match in Crete ( Chania), Tunisia (Bizerte) and a couple among Basques - I do not think that all these people are Slavs as me.

Still testing, I am awaiting Z280 SNP pack results.

[Bosniensis]

I don't know what is this thread about, but Dibran is a Slav.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Based on what is that map? I don't get point of that. Either how it differentiate Slavic R1a, from Baltic R1a or even Germanic? Based on what this map is "Slavic Y-DNA" ?

[Kouros]

Didn't the Byzantines call Slavs Barbarians? I thought they were grouped with the rest. Even then it still seems high. I think a recent paper mentioned slavic ydna combine only reached 4-7 percent in Crete. It still seems strange also, considering he states in his explanation that some clades of M458, and most of Z280 are Slavic. Yet, He doesn't mention what clades that apply. Not all of them anyway.

There are around 20 toponyms in Crete that are possibly connected to slavs but even if all these 20 village names were actually associated with them there's still no reason for Crete to be so bright on this map. Even southern Greece barely reaches 3% R1a and Cretans fully lack I2a-Din from all studies that I've seen so far.

I agree with Vlatko, I wish people who made these maps would be straight up with their methods and sources. I've seen like 5 different variations of I2a-Din/R1a/Slavic Y-DNA maps and they all look different.

[Dibran]

Well, I would say that many Y DNA designed as Slavic had appeared long before Slavs appeared. Slavs were firstly mentioned only in VI century, ca. 1500 years ago.

Interestingly, as R1a I have no matches in Italy. But I have a match in Crete ( Chania), Tunisia (Bizerte) and a couple among Basques - I do not think that all these people are Slavs as me.

Still testing, I am awaiting Z280 SNP pack results.

What is your clade? Most R1a in Crete is Z93 or Z280 last I checked. I agree that despite mostly moving with Slavs given modern distributions, that in the early middle ages and prior it does not seem to be entirely associated with them. For instance, the oldest ancestor of all living R1a men is M417, oldest samples discovered in Alexandria, Ukraine dating to the Late Neolithic. Ukraine and Romania has some of the highest R1a diversity.

[Dibran]

I don't know what is this thread about, but Dibran is a Slav.

Shut your mouth Shki.

I2a1b is the greatest indication of Slavic ancestry in the Balkans. accept it. Your fantasy of being Illyrian is retarded. And I never claimed to be one. Qen bir qeni.

[Dibran]

There are around 20 toponyms in Crete that are possibly connected to slavs but even if all these 20 village names were actually associated with them there's still no reason for Crete to be so bright on this map. Even southern Greece barely reaches 3% R1a and Cretans fully lack I2a-Din from all studies that I've seen so far.

I agree with Vlatko, I wish people who made these maps would be straight up with their methods and sources. I've seen like 5 different variations of I2a-Din/R1a/Slavic Y-DNA maps and they all look different.

Take the blogger Vayda, he gets more detailed then Maciamo. Goes so far as to make heat maps for different clusters under one clade. For instance there is only one cluster of I2a1b-Din, that is not only older than South Slavic I2a1b-Din, but also only has Jews and Greeks under its cluster. This specific cluster of I2a1b-Din may have a common ancestor with Slavs, but moved earlier than the migration, and so was in Greece before the later movements which have predominance in Slavs.

What I think Maciamo is doing(which can be misleading) is group the general branch based on the predominance, ignoring the other cases. As a result, painting a less than realistic assessment on heat maps. Heres the I2a1b cluster among Greeks and Jews. I-A2512, Its TMRCA is 200BC in their case(whilst majority of I2a1b in the balkans is between 1000-1500 years old). So in the case of this rare Greek cluster that predates majority I2a1b-Din-Slavic, it likely moved earlier with a Goth or Bastarnae in their case. You could very well belong to the same cluster.

https://s9.postimg.cc/r9zfjhofj/i2greek.png

[Art23]

What is your clade? Most R1a in Crete is Z93 or Z280 last I checked. I agree that despite mostly moving with Slavs given modern distributions, that in the early middle ages and prior it does not seem to be entirely associated with them. For instance, the oldest ancestor of all living R1a men is M417, oldest samples discovered in Alexandria, Ukraine dating to the Late Neolithic. Ukraine and Romania has some of the highest R1a diversity.

I am still waiting for my results which should arrive soon, but I believe that I am Y33, supposedly "the most Slavic subclade of R1a". ;)Nevermind that it actually appeared 3000 years before any Slavs.

My matches are very diverse, both Z280, Z93, Z284. Which could mean that they all are very distant matches anyway.

[Dibran]

I am still waiting for my results which should arrive soon, but I believe that I am Y33, supposedly "the most Slavic subclade of R1a". ;)Nevermind that it actually appeared 3000 years before any Slavs.

My matches are very diverse, both Z280, Z93, Z284. Which could mean that they all are very distant matches anyway.

Yea. I have some distant Z284 and Z283 matches. All my matches are very far(12 markers), but my closest at a distance of 0 is from England, surname Hume.

[Aren]

There are around 20 toponyms in Crete that are possibly connected to slavs but even if all these 20 village names were actually associated with them there's still no reason for Crete to be so bright on this map. Even southern Greece barely reaches 3% R1a and Cretans fully lack I2a-Din from all studies that I've seen so far.

I agree with Vlatko, I wish people who made these maps would be straight up with their methods and sources. I've seen like 5 different variations of I2a-Din/R1a/Slavic Y-DNA maps and they all look different.

These maps looks like a child who started coloring various shades of yellow starting from Eastern Poland/Belarus one one hand and Western Balkans on the other and then using lighter and lighter shades as he moves away from the peak areaa. Very amateurish. I doubt it's really that easy.

[Peterski]

These maps looks like a child who started coloring various shades of yellow starting from Eastern Poland/Belarus one one hand and Western Balkans on the other and then using lighter and lighter shades as he moves away from the peak areaa. Very amateurish. I doubt it's really that easy.

Are you talking about FTDNA maps?: ;)

https://i.imgur.com/neoAkkN.png

[Art23]

Yea. I have some distant Z284 and Z283 matches. All my matches are very far(12 markers), but my closest at a distance of 0 is from England, surname Hume.

I have one exact originally from England too with the surname England :) looks like him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_R._England

Otherwise, my matches are Macdonald from Sutherland, Scotland and some even from remote locations like Orkney and Shetland islands. All "Slavs". ;)

[Aren]

Are you talking about FTDNA maps?: ;)

https://i.imgur.com/neoAkkN.png

Wait Maciamo has decent amount of samples from all over Europe for this map to actually be accurate? I doubt that. I don't deny that it's giving us a good enough picture about where Slavic Y-DNA is high or where it peaks but outside that area it looks like he just colored the map going by grographical closeness to Western Balkans/Belarus.

[Bobby Martnen]

Maciamo made a new map, what do you think about it?:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#Slavic

https://i.imgur.com/EoaYHtI.png


How is there Slavic Y-DNA in Spain, France, and Persia? :confused:

[Peterski]

How is there Slavic Y-DNA in Spain, France, and Persia? :confused:

Mainly slaves but also pirates, traders, settlers and Slavic population forcibly resettled by the Byzantines.

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-1/

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-2-slavs-of-muslim-iberia-and-slavic-pirates/

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-3-slavs-in-muslim-spainpart-1/

There was even a Slavic-ruled kingdom in Muslim Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_D%C3%A9nia

[Bobby Martnen]

Mainly slaves but also pirates, traders, settlers and Slavic population forcibly resettled by the Byzantines.

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-1/

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-2-slavs-of-muslim-iberia-and-slavic-pirates/

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/saqaliba-slavs-in-the-arab-world-part-3-slavs-in-muslim-spainpart-1/

There was even a Slavic-ruled kingdom in Muslim Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_D%C3%A9nia

Do you have a map of I1 in North America?

[Dibran]

Peterski is going to start distributing packages all over now:

https://s9.postimg.cc/fbbcsadkf/076.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/5qrq5jlpb/52c_1.jpg

[Dibran]

I have one exact originally from England too with the surname England :) looks like him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_R._England

Otherwise, my matches are Macdonald from Sutherland, Scotland and some even from remote locations like Orkney and Shetland islands. All "Slavs". ;)

I think at 12 markers the distance is so far to determine. For instance I have 12 marker matches that are Z93. Which split from M417 along with other branches. Which if I am not mistaken is 5-6k years ago. The ancestor to M417, M420, has the highest diversity in Iranians and Kurds. M420 likely moved from there to Ukraine sometime in the past.

[Ujku]

Are you kidding me ? Albania 20-40% slavic???

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Dibran is Albanian. That is ethno-linguistic group such as Germanic, Slavic, Celtic, Italic, Baltic etc...

Meta-Ethnicity is NOT related with genetics.

[Dibran]

Are you kidding me ? Albania 20-40% slavic???

It depends. Most of Albania falls within the 10-15 percent color code. This includes I2a1b-Din, and Z280, and some clades of M458 per Maciamo. Albania tends to have a total percentages of 12 percent across the board combined between I2a-R1a. However, as the map illustrates its stronger in the south(where there is a darker blob). We can't forget the Baiounitai settled heavily in that area during the migration wave. Most of it in Albanias case most probably arrived with assimilated Slavs from Greece(arrived as Greek speaking), or latinized Slavs that came as Vlachs. It is also important to know, Albania is highly under-sampled. However, from most testing, haplogroup ranges have never exceded or dropped 5 percent in either direction. If we use standard probability, the likelihood is EV13/J2B/R1B will still be the most prevalent regardless of how many more are tested.

Take the clade breakdown for instance.

Z280: Between 2.5-5%

https://s9.postimg.cc/t8tixrjen/Haplogroup-_R1a-_Y93.png

M458:1-2.5%(funny how the blob kind of forms a shape similar to "Greater Albania")

https://s9.postimg.cc/4fjyxg0hr/Haplogroup-_R1a-_M458.png

I2a1b-Din: Notice the dark blob in the overall "Slav YDNA" map shows the same dark concentration where the heavy settlements were.

https://s9.postimg.cc/dom57gehr/Haplogroup_I2a_1.gif

There is however a rare I2a1b-Din cluster with TMRCA of 200BC. It currently only has Greeks and Jews. In this case for all we know, Albanian I2 could be part of the Greek cluster in the South. which could indicate it moved earlier than the majority of the far younger I2-Din Slavic in the rest of the Balkans(500-1000AD). Probably with a atypical Goth or Bastarnae.

https://s9.postimg.cc/r9zfjhofj/i2greek.png

Altogether it combines to roughly that range of 10-15 percent. But, if heat maps were made for separate clusters it would be far lower. Context is everything. The map is just a broad generalization. It appears in my case(M458) is really uncommon, I imagine my founder cluster even moreso. It may not even be Slavic

[Wrong]

Western FYROM is wrong for the Slavic yDNA map frequency.

FYROM-Albanians have Slavonic yDNA levels similar to Kosovars.

[Dibran]

Western FYROM is wrong for the Slavic yDNA map frequency.

FYROM-Albanians have Slavonic yDNA levels similar to Kosovars.

I think it is also because they're including Mijaks(some of which are not Albanian), and Torbes etc.? I could be wrong though. If they tested only Albanians in the west, I would imagine it would be lighter.

[Wrong]

I think it is also because they're including Mijaks(some of which are not Albanian), and Torbes etc.? I could be wrong though. If they tested only Albanians in the west, I would imagine it would be lighter.
OP map looks too streamlined in FYROM, way different to the yDNA maps you posted which shows a stronger presence of Slavic yDNA in Eastern part of FYROM if we combine them.

[Bosniensis]

Peterski is going to start distributing packages all over now:

https://s9.postimg.cc/fbbcsadkf/076.jpg

https://s9.postimg.cc/5qrq5jlpb/52c_1.jpg

You have starter pack, admit it!

[Wrong]

You have starter pack, admit it!
I2a1b-CTS10228 started the Slavic ethnogenesis.

[Bosniensis]

I2a1b-CTS10228 started the Slavic ethnogenesis.

Wrong Wrong

[Wrong]

Wrong Wrong
Two negatives makes a positive. I'm therefore right.

[Bosniensis]

Two negatives makes a positive. I'm therefore right.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/df137803.gif

[Voskos]

You got any maps for other nomadic groups such as bedouins and huns?

[Dibran]

Wrong Wrong

Look at the heatmap mongoloid. If my clade is Slavic it barely left a scratch on the entire Balkans. That would work for your I2a1b-Din "Illyrian" Delusions. Everywhere Slavs had the strongest foothold, I2a1b-Din shines bright!. Its ok Slavinski its ok.

[Dibran]

OP map looks too streamlined in FYROM, way different to the yDNA maps you posted which shows a stronger presence of Slavic yDNA in Eastern part of FYROM if we combine them.

Yea, the way he gathers it into one map seems disjointed. Individual branch maps paint a better picture.

[Voskos]

I2a1Bosniak is proto-Slav from Kievan Rus- Baltic Sea-Serajevo triangle.

[Bosniensis]

Look at the heatmap mongoloid. If my clade is Slavic it barely left a scratch on the entire Balkans. That would work for your I2a1b-Din "Illyrian" Delusions. Everywhere Slavs had the strongest foothold, I2a1b-Din shines bright!. Its ok Slavinski its ok.

Don't be so sure Dibran, leave some space for surprise cause you might be disappointed.

It's not because of me. Your science can't explain it YET.

I know some things you do not.

Significant number of Albanians, as well as Greeks are not people from Balkans. I know that for certain.

Leave it as possibility at least so truth doesn't hit you unprepared.

Migrations, Wars, Assimilations happened on a large scale on Balkans.

[Bosniensis]

I2a1Bosniak is proto-Slav from Kievan Rus- Baltic Sea-Serajevo triangle.

Yeah

I2a1 should be called BA1

cause it's Bosnian hehehhe

We are Proto-Proto-Proto-Slavs meaning we are Proto of Proto-Proto Slavs.

[Dibran]

Don't be so sure Dibran, leave some space for surprise cause you might be disappointed.

It's not because of me. Your science can't explain it YET.

I know some things you do not.

Significant number of Albanians, as well as Greeks are not people from Balkans. I know that for certain.

Leave it as possibility at least so truth doesn't hit you unprepared.

Migrations, Wars, Assimilations happened on a large scale on Balkans.

You deny science, logic, reason. You believe Islamic and Greek (his)tory as fact. You're absolutely retarded. How can anything of your bullshit be "proven" when you deny the very tools that ascertain the truth?

What you should admit already is that Greeks and Albanians are natives, and you encroached on their lands. As even science and archaeology(the tools of evidence you deny) proves.

[Bosniensis]

You deny science, logic, reason. You believe Islamic and Greek (his)tory as fact. You're absolutely retarded. How can anything of your bullshit be "proven" when you deny the very tools that ascertain the truth?

What you should admit already is that Greeks and Albanians are natives, and you encroached on their lands. As even science and archaeology(the tools of evidence you deny) proves.

Science...

Science made humans blind.

Your science has taught you that 90% of Ancient Populace were bunch of fools ... quite opposite...

There is no science, only controlled science for cattle. Knowledge is a privilege and it isn't free at least in those "Science focuses worlds"

Knowledge is accessible only to selected few.

That's how your science works. Those things that are deemed "secret" are replaced with false and inaccurate explanations.

Oh you still believe that America is a home of the brave and free?

There is nothing to learn from them, they won't let you in.

hehehehh

It might be too late when you figure that out yourself.

"Illyrian"

hehhe

[Wrong]

Science...

Science made humans blind.

hehehehh

hehhe
Retardation.

[Dibran]

Science...

Science made humans blind.

Your science has taught you that 90% of Ancient Populace were bunch of fools ... quite opposite...

There is no science, only controlled science for cattle. Knowledge is a privilege and it isn't free at least in those "Science focuses worlds"

Knowledge is accessible only to selected few.

That's how your science works. Those things that are deemed "secret" are replaced with false and inaccurate explanations.

Oh you still believe that America is a home of the brave and free?

There is nothing to learn from them, they won't let you in.

hehehehh

It might be too late when you figure that out yourself.

"Illyrian"

hehhe

You're missing a few brain cells. Well, more than a few I am afraid. Also, Idk what politics has to do with science?

Nothing secretive about science, it literally means "Knowledge" or "To-Know", from Latin "Scientia". Apparently you do not want to know. A quality of the willfully ignorant.

It is also not accessible to the select few. I have the privilege of downloading an entire university on my phone and can absorb knowledge at will. Maybe you don't have that privileged in your rat infested country. In America and elsewhere in Europe though, knowledge is easily accessible to everyone who has a desire to learn.

[Bosniensis]

You're missing a few brain cells. Well, more than a few I am afraid. Also, Idk what politics has to do with science?

Nothing secretive about science, it literally means "Knowledge" or "To-Know", from Latin "Scientia". Apparently you do not want to know. A quality of the willfully ignorant.

It is also not accessible to the select few. I have the privilege of downloading an entire university on my phone and can absorb knowledge at will. Maybe you don't have that privileged in your rat infested country. In America and elsewhere in Europe though, knowledge is easily accessible to everyone who has a desire to learn.

If you fully believe that's truth... go on then... I will remain here in rat infested country cause I miss few brain cells :)

Good luck there.

[Bosniensis]

@Dibran

Since you love our Illyrian history:

Benji thinks we are Native as well :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

[Dibran]

If you fully believe that's truth... go on then... I will remain here in rat infested country cause I miss few brain cells :)

Good luck there.

Lol. You believe in "Islamic" history written 200 years after the prophet during the Abbasid Regime, where most of that shit was written by Persian Pharsis trying to reclaim Persia from Islamic conquest. Thats where most of your retarded fairytales and mythos come from. Including stories that defy physics, and all reason. I think, whilst I don't know all(Only The Creator does), I still have a better grasp of the truth than you. I am actually using the mental faculties my Creator provided. Instead of getting butthurt like you because I am not descended from a culture that doesn't exist any more any way.

[Dibran]

@Dibran

Since you love our Illyrian history:

Benji thinks we are Native as well :(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

Makes sense, you commit genocide on your neighbors. He does so to Palestinians. Devious minds think alike.

[Bosniensis]

Lol. You believe in "Islamic" history written 200 years after the prophet during the Abbasid Regime, where most of that shit was written by Persian Pharsis trying to reclaim Persia from Islamic conquest. Thats where most of your retarded fairytales and mythos come from. Including stories that defy physics, and all reason. I think, whilst I don't know all(Only The Creator does), I still have a better grasp of the truth than you. I am actually using the mental faculties my Creator provided. Instead of getting butthurt like you because I am not descended from a culture that doesn't exist any more any way.

Benji says we wuz Illyrians and Romanz, and hez current... not 1500 years old.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

[Dibran]

Benji says we wuz Illyrians and Romanz, and hez current... not 1500 years old.

Stop derailing the thread you swine. Go make another I2a1b is Illyrian thread. I am sure talking about it to yourself enough will "make it so". lol

[Bosniensis]

Stop derailing the thread you swine. Go make another I2a1b is Illyrian thread. I am sure talking about it to yourself enough will "make it so". lol

Benji is more valid source than your wishful thinking m8.

We wuz Illyrians cause Benji said so.

Also it's logical... Illyrians are related to Hallstatt cultures not.... E1b Africans.

Also I2 is Ancient Celtic group which also aligns with Greek Myth that Celts and Illyrians (two nations of two brothers)

That means that all I2 people are related to each other.

Albanians... = Africa.

Probably Heraclius brought you all during Great War with Persians in 6th century.

But you are free to believe opposite, as I am free to believe THIS theory.

Stop thumbing me down, it's childish ffs.

[Dibran]

Benji is more valid source than your wishful thinking m8.

We wuz Illyrians cause Benji said so.

Also it's logical... Illyrians are related to Hallstatt cultures not.... E1b Africans.

Also I2 is Ancient Celtic group which also aligns with Greek Myth that Celts and Illyrians (two nations of two brothers)

That means that all I2 people are related to each other.

Albanians... = Africa.

Probably Heraclius brought you all during Great War with Persians in 6th century.

But you are free to believe opposite, as I am free to believe THIS theory.

Stop thumbing me down, it's childish ffs.

Each thumb down is only to illustrate to others how retarded you really are. I never knew Netanyahu was superior to generations of accumulated knowledge via scientific and archaeological endeavor.

[Bosniensis]

Each thumb down is only to illustrate to others how retarded you really are. I never knew Netanyahu was superior to generations of accumulated knowledge via scientific and archaeological endeavor.

Well he has superpower in Middle East, everyone is affraid of him there... so let's assume he is smart.

I doubt Jews picked him to be PM cause he is stupid.

Also that means he pick his words very carefully, and he obviously (being a Jew) knows of those things better than we do.

Jews always monitored migrations, ancient people.. cause Jewish people had to be monitored that way.

As I said... don't count out Greek Bibliotheca and Ancient Scripts as INVALID just yet...

[Dibran]

Well he has superpower in Middle East, everyone is affraid of him there... so let's assume he is smart.

I doubt Jews picked him to be PM cause he is stupid.

Also that means he pick his words very carefully, and he obviously (being a Jew) knows of those things better than we do.

Jews always monitored migrations, ancient people.. cause Jewish people had to be monitored that way.

As I said... don't count out Greek Bibliotheca and Ancient Scripts as INVALID just yet...

Since you're such a "Muslim"

2:170-What we found our forefathers committed to is quite enough for us! Wasn’t it the case that their ancestors didn’t know a thing and were void of guidance?


(Its called archaeology today)47:10-What, have they not journeyed in the land and beheld how was the end of those before them?

The Greeks are not your ancestors by any stretch. But, you get my point. Before the advent of the scientific age(the one you scorn), people were full of talking bullshit. Lies mixed with the truth.

[Bosniensis]

Since you're such a "Muslim"

2:170-What we found our forefathers committed to is quite enough for us! Wasn’t it the case that their ancestors didn’t know a thing and were void of guidance?


(Its called archaeology today)47:10-What, have they not journeyed in the land and beheld how was the end of those before them?

The Greeks are not your ancestors by any stretch. But, you get my point. Before the advent of the scientific age(the one you scorn), people were full of talking bullshit. Lies mixed with the truth.

Let's say Italians and Greeks are J2

By all means they are closer to I2 people than E1 or R1 people since we both come from IJ Haplogroup.

That's truth.

[Kouros]

They should make one of these but for 'Paleo-balkan' that includes J2a, R1b-L23, J2b2-Z1297, E1b1b-V13, and whatever subclades of I and R1a that are supposedly paleo-balkan. I will see if I can make one in my free time.

[Art23]

Let's say Italians and Greeks are J2


No. You can never make a sign of equality between one haplogroup and a nation.

[Dibran]

No. You can never make a sign of equality between one haplogroup and a nation.

He is not very bright. He disdains science and archaeology and believes pagan historians are more knowledgeable than scientific endeavor. It helps him believe his ancestors were Illyrian and not Slav(since he hates himself so much).

[Bosniensis]

No. You can never make a sign of equality between one haplogroup and a nation.

Yes I can.

3 religions say that Japheth is father of Romans and that Romulus is one of his descendants you see, Japheth probably was either J or I haplogroup or IJ but def not R1

He didn’t have more than 1 Haplogroup so Romans are IJ people

E, R are assimilated later


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dibran]

Yes I can.

3 religions say that Japheth is father of Romans and that Romulus is one of his descendants you see, Japheth probably was either J or I haplogroup or IJ but def not R1

He didn’t have more than 1 Haplogroup so Romans are IJ people

E, R are assimilated later


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mythology=lies mixed with truth
Science & Archaeology(that which you disdain)= Method for separating lies from truth.

Clear cut and to the point. You prefer your fantasy and unsubstantiated claims to the truth. If the science conformed to your delusions you would change your tone. That shows you have an agenda and can't accept the real truth if it does not conform to your desire.

Willful ignorance.

[ovidiu]

Why are you guys still arguing over nonsense? This ain't a topic that requires 10 pages for pete's sake. Now it's spilling over into mythology and has no basis in real factual discussion



Anyway, genetics aside, I find it interesting what peoples have historically self-identified as and how they viewed themselves in relation to others, including their neighbors around them. Apparently Romanians, despite assimilating a decent amount of Slavic speakers over time in varying amounts, still seem to have viewed them as a separate people, and vice-versa.

Like there was a now archaic or obsolete word 'șcheau (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%99cheau)' or 'șchiau' (also found in Aromanian 'shcljau' and Albanian 'shqa (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shqa#Albanian)') which was a directly inherited descendant of the Late Latin sclavus, and maintained the old or original sense of ethnicity that was lost in the western Romance langauges, where the word came to mean "slave", as in Italian 'schiavo' (also the root of the English word). This word isn't really used anymore but is occasionally found in some surnames, and means Bulgarian, Serb, or sometimes Slav in general. There are also the modern Romanian words 'slav', which is the normal way to say Slav, and 'sclav', which means slave, but these are both neological borrowings from French in the last two hundred years, unlike the other word I mentioned earlier which went through the sound shifts of natural language evolution.

I just found that interesting. Coupled with the autonym still being 'român (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rom%C3%A2n)' or 'rumân (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rum%C3%A2n#Romanian)' originally, and the fact that surrounding Slavic speakers referred to them as 'Vlach' or a variant of that (an exonym), meaning Romance-speaking foreigner, indicates that there was some degree of mutual distinction for a while, despite absorption into communities (Polish still calls Italians 'Włoch' (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/W%C5%82och#Polish) and Hungarian calls them 'olasz (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/olasz#Hungarian)', both having doublets to Wołoch (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wo%C5%82och#Polish) and oláh (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ol%C3%A1h#Hungarian), meaning Vlach or Romanian, and in a pejorative sense in Hungarian). I wonder how the actual assimilation processes occurred. It's pretty fascinating but we have no historical records of these as they occurred.

Those words also later became associated with "shepherd" by neighboring peoples. Even Albanian had an old term 'rëmër' which mean shepherd, probably from their days in close proximity to proto-Romanian speakers in the late Roman Empire or early Middle Ages. You can find some surprising things by digging into linguistic history.

[Dibran]

Why are you guys still arguing over nonsense? This ain't a topic that requires 10 pages for pete's sake. Now it's spilling over into mythology and has no basis in real factual discussion



Anyway, genetics aside, I find it interesting what peoples have historically self-identified as and how they viewed themselves in relation to others, including their neighbors around them. Apparently Romanians, despite assimilating a decent amount of Slavic speakers over time in varying amounts, still seem to have viewed them as a separate people, and vice-versa.

Like there was a now archaic or obsolete word 'șcheau (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%99cheau)' or 'șchiau' (also found in Aromanian 'shcljau' and Albanian 'shqa (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shqa#Albanian)') which was a directly inherited descendant of the Late Latin sclavus, and maintained the old or original sense of ethnicity that was lost in the western Romance langauges, where the word came to mean "slave" (also the root of the English word). This word isn't really used anymore but is occasionally found in some surnames, and means Bulgarian, Serb, or sometimes Slav in general. There are also the modern Romanian words 'slav', which is the normal way to say Slav, and 'sclav', which means slave, but these are both neological borrowings from French in the last two hundred years, unlike the other word I mentioned earlier which went through the sound shifts of natural language evolution.

I just found that interesting. Coupled with the autonym still being 'român (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rom%C3%A2n)' or 'rumân (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rum%C3%A2n#Romanian)' originally, and the fact that surrounding Slavic speakers referred to them as 'Vlach' or a variant of that (an exonym), meaning Romance-speaking foreigner, indicates that there was some degree of mutual distinction for a while, despite absorption into communities (Polish still calls Italians 'Włoch' (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/W%C5%82och#Polish) and Hungarian calls them 'olasz (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/olasz#Hungarian)', both having doublets to Wołoch (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wo%C5%82och#Polish) and oláh (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ol%C3%A1h#Hungarian), meaning Vlach or Romanian, and in a pejorative sense in Hungarian). I wonder how the actual assimilation processes occurred. It's pretty fascinating but we have no historical records of these as they occurred.

Those words also later became associated with "shepherd" by neighboring peoples. Even Albanian had an old term 'rëmër' which mean shepherd, probably from their days in close proximity to proto-Romanian speakers in the late Roman Empire or early Middle Ages. You can find some surprising things by digging into linguistic history.

Thank Bosniensis for derailing the thread into ignorance with his pagan mythos being the "source of truth". That aside, that is a very interesting observation. Never knew we used the same word for the root of "Slav". etc.

[Wrong]

Bump

[Bosniensis]

Maciamo made a new map, what do you think about it?:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#Slavic

https://i.imgur.com/EoaYHtI.png

Why isn't Sardinia part of our Slavic DNA

They descend from the same distant Ancestor.

Sardinia is I2a1 as much as we are.

[Kelmendasi]

Why isn't Sardinia part of our Slavic DNA

They descend from the same distant Ancestor.

Sardinia is I2a1 as much as we are.
Completely different I2a1 clade, Slavs are I2a1b-Din whilst Sardinians are I2a1a-M26

[Bosniensis]

Completely different I2a1 clade, Slavs are I2a1b-Din whilst Sardinians are I2a1a-M26

Few thousand years ago they were the same, while E1b and R1 people will never be that close to I2a1a as we are and nobody is closer to Sardinians than we are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Why isn't Sardinia part of our Slavic DNA

They descend from the same distant Ancestor.

Sardinia is I2a1 as much as we are.

Better question would be why Lithuania and Latvia are not included in this map since their R1a-Z280 branches are almost the same as among other Eastern Slavs.

[Kelmendasi]

Few thousand years ago they were the same, while E1b and R1 people will never be that close to I2a1a as we are and nobody is closer to Sardinians than we are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That doesn't really mean anything you still aren't related. Sardinians are far closer to Italians and other people that they neighbor in comparison to Slavs, I don't think there is any similarity between Slavs and Sardinians.

[Bosniensis]

That doesn't really mean anything you still aren't related. Sardinians are far closer to Italians and other people that they neighbor in comparison to Slavs, I don't think there is any similarity between Slavs and Sardinians.

The only reason why we drift so far away from Sardinians is because they are not mixed and have enormous amount of Western Med. component.

I for example don't have.. even if I do have a reasonably high Western Med. it is halved by Slavic admixture.

But even people back then haven't monitored that... African, Persian, Egyptian DNA mixed with West/East med people.

Paternally we were closer to Sardinians but after mixing with Slavs and Slavenization we became what we are today.

I2 doesn't originate from Steppe, everybody knows that ... it's Celtic haplogroup.

[Wrong]

snip
You are retarded.

Unless you are trolling of course. ;)

[Wrong]

I feel closer to a R1b-L23 GhegToskVlach or EV13 GhegToskVlach than to a J2a1 or J2b1 person.

Aside from my direct patrilineal haplogroup, the bulk of my yDNA from other sides is full of R1b-L23 and EV13.

[Kelmendasi]

The only reason why we drift so far away from Sardinians is because they are not mixed and have enormous amount of Western Med. component.

I for example don't have.. even if I do have a reasonably high Western Med. it is halved by Slavic admixture.

But even people back then haven't monitored that... African, Persian, Egyptian DNA mixed with West/East med people.

Paternally we were closer to Sardinians but after mixing with Slavs and Slavenization we became what we are today.

I2 doesn't originate from Steppe, everybody knows that ... it's Celtic haplogroup.
No it's not, it's because you are two completely different peoples. You are a Slav not something else so idk why use the "mixing with Slavs" as if you are mainly Illyrian or some shit, your culture/language is Slavic and so is a huge chunk of your DNA. I2 isn't Celtic, Celtic haplogroups are R1b-U152, R1b-L21 and some other R1b clades but sure some I2 clades were included in their ethnos

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Celtic languages are Indo-European languages of course, so the Celts aren't originally I2a. Irish and Welsh people are Indo-European people, as the carriers of Celtic culture, and of course that they're mainly of R1b Y-DNA.

[Bosniensis]

No it's not, it's because you are two completely different peoples. You are a Slav not something else so idk why use the "mixing with Slavs" as if you are mainly Illyrian or some shit, your culture/language is Slavic and so is a huge chunk of your DNA. I2 isn't Celtic, Celtic haplogroups are R1b-U152, R1b-L21 and some other R1b clades but sure some I2 clades were included in their ethnos

Celts and Illyrians must share the same Haplogroup!

That's what Greeks explained when they said that Illyrians and Celts are two people from two brothers.

E1b and R1 are WORLDS APART!

However we have clear evidences that I2 is western european (Pre-Germanic R1 invasions) haplogrup.

Also according to your logic: Who are "Barbarian invaders"... they were completely alien and unrelated to Celts? Tell me their Haplogroups?

Don't tell me they are R1b...

Celts and Germans are completely unrelated people.


How come that you consider Balkan = Slavic yet you don't call Gaul = Germanic?

You have accepted those facts that suits you...

Celts survived but populace of western balkans died?

I believe opposite happened.

[Bosniensis]

Celtic languages are Indo-European languages of course, so the Celts aren't originally I2a. Irish and Welsh people are Indo-European people, as the carriers of Celtic culture, and of course that they're mainly of R1b Y-DNA.

Celts came from Anatolia, so they are not Indo-Europeans.

Only Germans are Indo-Euroepans and for that reason they are not Europeans.

[Kelmendasi]

Celts and Illyrians must share the same Haplogroup!

That's what Greeks explained when they said that Illyrians and Celts are two people from two brothers.

E1b and R1 are WORLDS APART!

However we have clear evidences that I2 is western european (Pre-Germanic R1 invasions) haplogrup.

Also according to your logic: Who are "Barbarian invaders"... they were completely alien and unrelated to Celts? Tell me their Haplogroups?

Don't tell me they are R1b...

Celts and Germans are completely unrelated people.


How come that you consider Balkan = Slavic yet you don't call Gaul = Germanic?

You have accepted those facts that suits you...

Celts survived but populace of western balkans died?

I believe opposite happened.
Man I know you are trolling but come on, you have been repeating the same thing for years now. Greeks considered them related because of the fact that they were both Barbarian, and you have to be pretty stupid to actually believe the Greek myth as the myth claims that they come from a Cyclops lol. Celts haven't got anything to do with Illyrians apart from a possible Illyrian connection to Hallstatt.

[Kelmendasi]

Celts came from Anatolia, so they are not Indo-Europeans.

Only Germans are Indo-Euroepans and for that reason they are not Europeans.
Nope, a Gallic Celtic tribe invaded Anatolia and gave the area the name Galatia so it's the other way round. Germans are more related to Celts than you are

[Wrong]

Celtic languages are Indo-European languages of course, so the Celts aren't originally I2a. Irish and Welsh people are Indo-European people, as the carriers of Celtic culture, and of course that they're mainly of R1b Y-DNA.
You speak sense here. I thought all Bosniaks had the same brain when it comes to haplogroup.

Bosniensis mentality is dangerous... Is the cause of genocides against real native Balkan(Albanians/Vlachs) peoples.

[Freeroostah]

Maciamo is very eurocentrist when it comes to haplogroup origins. He even believes that E-V13 was expanded with the Celts....... :thumb001::clap::rotfl::bowlol::bow00001:

[Bosniensis]

Man I know you are trolling but come on, you have been repeating the same thing for years now. Greeks considered them related because of the fact that they were both Barbarian, and you have to be pretty stupid to actually believe the Greek myth as the myth claims that they come from a Cyclops lol. Celts haven't got anything to do with Illyrians apart from a possible Illyrian connection to Hallstatt.

It's you who don't believe in distant ancestry.

We share the same paternal Grand Father with Sardinians.

Do you know what Genetic mutations are? They are nothing!

R1b territories were all I2 and J2 territories in Europe now completely occupied, that's truth.

[Wrong]

Maciamo is very eurocentrist when it comes to haplogroup origins. He even believes that E-V13 was expanded with the Celts....... :thumb001::clap::rotfl::bowlol::bow00001:
He also thinks some J2 was carried by Slavs into the Balkans.

[Kelmendasi]

Maciamo is very eurocentrist when it comes to haplogroup origins. He even believes that E-V13 was expanded with the Celts....... :thumb001::clap::rotfl::bowlol::bow00001:
Yh some of his theories are rather odd. I guess they did help spread some E-V13 but they surely didn't do some full on expansion.

[Freeroostah]

He also thinks some J2 was carried by Slavs into the Balkans.

He is such an ignorant towards Balkan people and their history....

[Wrong]

He is such an ignorant towards Balkan people and their history....
I flamed him like hell on Eupedia and his ignorant "Team Members". He probably formed an agenda awhile ago against Real Balkan Native people.

[Hulu]

Maciamo is very eurocentrist when it comes to haplogroup origins. He even believes that E-V13 was expanded with the Celts....... :thumb001::clap::rotfl::bowlol::bow00001:

Where does he say that?

[Wrong]

Where does he say that?
Google it.

[Kelmendasi]

I flamed him like hell on Eupedia and his ignorant "Team Members". He probably formed an agenda awhile ago against Real Balkan Native people.
He made a whole page on E-V13 and didn't mention Albanian once despite us having the highest percentage of E-V13 but decides to mention Slavs and Germanics instead :picard1:

[Freeroostah]

Yh some of his theories are rather odd. I guess they did help spread some E-V13 but they surely didn't do some full on expansion.

I believe Celts had no contribution for the E-V13 expansion as this haplogroup was formed around south Balkans and expanded thought Danube river during the Neolithic period (upwards migration) .
If Celts contributed in haplogroups that would be the expansion of R1b in Europe.

[Hulu]

Google it.

I'm inclined to believe that given the distribution of ev13. Also that J2 expanded with slavs. It cme from the east.

[Wrong]

He made a whole page on E-V13 and didn't mention Albanian once despite us having the highest percentage of E-V13 but decides to mention Slavs and Germanics instead :picard1:
Look at the dates of the infractions and then the expiration dates:

https://i.imgur.com/7CaZOOs.png

:picard2:

[Wrong]

I'm inclined to believe that given the distribution of ev13. Also that J2 expanded with slavs. It cme from the east.
Wrong.

You're still new at this it seems. Maybe you should join Eupedia with this basic skillset of yours.

[Freeroostah]

I flamed him like hell on Eupedia and his ignorant "Team Members". He probably formed an agenda awhile ago against Real Balkan Native people.

Even some Greeks from eupedia believe that E-V13 started from Switzerland and moved towards south (?????)
Meanwhile Kosovo and Peloponnesos have more than 40% E-V13 while Switzerland less than 8% :D

[Wrong]

I believe Celts had no contribution for the E-V13 expansion as this haplogroup was formed around south Balkans and expanded thought Danube river during the Neolithic period (upwards migration) .
If Celts contributed in haplogroups that would be the expansion of R1b in Europe.
Every major lineage absorbed some minor lineages I'd say. Even the Indo-European Yamnaya helped spread a bunch of non-R1b haplogroups.

[Kelmendasi]

I believe Celts had no contribution for the E-V13 expansion as this haplogroup was formed around south Balkans and expanded thought Danube river during the Neolithic period (upwards migration) .
If Celts contributed in haplogroups that would be the expansion of R1b in Europe.
I would say that they did, E-V13 evolved somewhere in the Balkans but it did get absorbed by IE cultures earlier on and was present in the forming of some of these IE peoples this is why E-V13 can be found all over places where IE peoples expanded to at some percentage, so they already had some E-V13 in them and thus did help spread it. Some E-V13 clades like L540 seem to have nothing to do with the Balkans and are only found in northern Europe, this clade seems to have been present in the Germanic peoples.

[Kelmendasi]

Even some Greeks from eupedia believe that E-V13 started from Switzerland and moved towards south (?????)
Meanwhile Kosovo and Peloponnesos have more than 40% E-V13 while Switzerland less than 8% :D
They are basing it on the belief that E-V13 was absorbed somewhere around central Europe by IE cultures and expanded with them into the rest of Europe. I don't agree with this as there are multiple E1b1b samples in Neolithic Europe suggesting it had already some expansion during the Neolithic

[Aren]

He is such an ignorant towards Balkan people and their history....

E-V13 is IE, I2a-Din is IE, J2b2-L283 is IE God knows what else people try to claim as IE which make no sense at all considering how highly patriarchal the Proto-IE were.

[Bosniensis]

E-V13 is IE, I2a-Din is IE, J2b2-L283 is IE God knows what else people try to claim as IE which make no sense at all considering how highly patriarchal the Proto-IE were.

R1a and R1b people are IE

Indo-Europe means something that isn't Europe.

European Haplogroups are those you mentioned except E-V13 that's Africa.

Cheers

[Freeroostah]

I would say that they did, E-V13 evolved somewhere in the Balkans but it did get absorbed by IE cultures earlier on and was present in the forming of some of these IE peoples this is why E-V13 can be found all over places where IE peoples expanded to at some percentage, so they already had some E-V13 in them and thus did help spread it. Some E-V13 clades like L540 seem to have nothing to do with the Balkans and are only found in northern Europe, this clade seems to have been present in the Germanic peoples.

Ok I can accept that since there was an upstream migration of E-V13 during the Neolithic period and of course people got assimilated into the IE peoples but making E-V13 or J2 Germanic or Slavic is beyond stupidity
For the sake of our ancestors , those people should stop assuming incoherent theories and spread lies. The whole E1b eupedia page is a mess......

[Freeroostah]

E-V13 is IE, I2a-Din is IE, J2b2-L283 is IE God knows what else people try to claim as IE which make no sense at all considering how highly patriarchal the Proto-IE were.

Good point....! :D

[Wrong]

All haplogroups among Europeans are definitely IE now even if not R1. We all got assimilated by R1 and speak IE today.

We have nothing left from the Farming era, let alone the HG era in terms of language and culture.

[Jana]

My maternal subclade is rather suprising: *Y4460, which isn't that common in south slavs. It's more spread in northeast Europe, my uncle closely match only one Bulgarian.

I was bit dissaponited to be I2 on both sides, but on the other hand, it's is pretty cool.

:D

[Wrong]

I feel closer to a R1b-L23 GhegToskVlach or EV13 GhegToskVlach than to a J2a1 or J2b1 person.

Aside from my direct patrilineal haplogroup, the bulk of my yDNA from other sides is full of R1b-L23 and EV13.
What makes this less IE than the next R1b-L23 Albanian who scores less Yamnaya admix than myself?

Everything non-R1 in Europe = Assimilated by R1 IE elite

[Jana]

What makes this less IE than the next R1b-L23 Albanian who scores less Yamnaya admix than myself?

Everything non-R1 in Europe = Assimilated by R1 IE elite

It's not so sure since south Caucasus homeland theory gained lot of ground recently. They claim J2 is original PIE marker.

I still support steppe theory (sound much more logical imo) but we will see what future scientific papers bring.

[Wrong]

It's not so sure since south Caucasus homeland theory gained lot of ground recently. They claim J2 is original PIE marker.

I still support steppe theory (sound much more logical imo) but we will see what future papers bring.
R1-people only started speaking IE after they came into contact with J2-people. Prior to that mixing with the pure Caucasoids of Caucas, R1 was some kind of EHG-Eurasian/Siberian hybrid aka. ANE.

Chechens score high Yamnaya and carry little R1b.

[Dick]

It's not so sure since south Caucasus homeland theory gained lot of ground recently. They claim J2 is original PIE marker.

I still support steppe theory (sound much more logical imo) but we will see what future scientific papers bring.

Arent Ossetians the pure Aryans? what are they?

[Jana]

R1-people only started speaking IE after they came into contact with J2-people. Prior to that mixing with the pure Caucasoids of Caucas, R1 was some kind of EHG-Eurasian/Siberian hybrid aka. ANE.

Chechens score high Yamnaya and carry little R1b.

I think they claim R1b as PIE too. wasn't Maykop culture R1b too ?
They claim they indoeuropeanised Yamnanya because suposedly Kurgans in Maykop are older.

Don't know really.

[Kelmendasi]

My maternal subclade is rather suprising: *Y4460, which isn't that common in south slavs. It's more spread in northeast Europe, my uncle closely match only one Bulgarian.

I was bit dissaponited to be I2 on both sides, but on the other hand, it's is pretty cool.

:D
Yh Y4460 seems to have more of a east Slavic distribution. Finding out maternal Ydna is really interesting, mu uncle's Ydna is super rare and basal. Congrats on the result

[Kelmendasi]

R1a and R1b people are IE

Indo-Europe means something that isn't Europe.

European Haplogroups are those you mentioned except E-V13 that's Africa.

Cheers
E-V13 has nothing to do with Africa.

[Aren]

I think they claim R1b as PIE too. wasn't Maykop culture R1b too ?
They claim they indoeuropeanised Yamnanya because suposedly Kurgans in Maykop are older.

Don't know really.

Actually the new Maykop paper kind of destroys the south of the Caucasus theory. Maykop had haplgroups J, G2 and L aswell as a small West Siberian-HG(high ANE with some East Eurasian) input oddly enough and quite high Anatolian farmer for it to be ancestral to Yamnaya. It looks like the CHG admix in the Steppe was older than that, maybe from the Neolithic period even as it was purely CHG without any Anatolian.

[Bosniensis]

E-V13 has nothing to do with Africa.

There are more ev13 in Africa than in Balkans yet its minor haplogroup there


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[Kelmendasi]

I think they claim R1b as PIE too. wasn't Maykop culture R1b too ?
They claim they indoeuropeanised Yamnanya because suposedly Kurgans in Maykop are older.

Don't know really.
Maykop had a lot of L, the only R1 sample was one that was labelled "Maykop steppe outlier". I do think that R1b-M269 and R1a are PIE haplogroups

[Jana]

Yh Y4460 seems to have more of a east Slavic distribution. Finding out maternal Ydna is really interesting, mu uncle's Ydna is super rare and basal. Congrats on the result

Thanks :) My maternal ancestry is from small island in Adriatic sea. Could it be from Antes ?

[Wrong]

There are more ev13 in Africa than in Balkans yet its minor haplogroup there


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EV13 is 0% in Africa except some few percentages in former Roman colonies.

[Kelmendasi]

There are more ev13 in Africa than in Balkans yet its minor haplogroup there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No there isn't and you know it, E-V13 is the only E1b1b clade found mainly in Europe.

[Kelmendasi]

Thanks :) My maternal ancestry is from small island in Adriatic sea. Could it be from Antes ?
Could be from Slavs like the white Croats who seem to have occupied similar territory as that of the Antes.

[Wrong]

No there isn't and you know it, E-V13 is the only E1b1b clade found mainly in Europe.
Some of these people with brain capacities of monkeys should be banned from further posting any content related to genetics and must be confined solely to a dedicated psuedo-history section.

This solution will greatly reduce the number of insults coming from the direction of angered wisemen such as ourselves.

[Jana]

Could be from Slavs like the white Croats who seem to have occupied similar territory as that of the Antes.

:thumb001:

Where do you think your maternal Y is from, if it is so unique ?

[Kelmendasi]

:thumb001:

Where do you think your maternal Y is from, if it is so unique ?
It's native Balkan but it just hasn't evolved much I guess as it's basal E-V13>CTS5856* which is the ancestral clade of almost every E-V13 downstream.

[Bosniensis]

Some of these people with brain capacities of monkeys should be banned from further posting any content related to genetics and must be confined solely to a dedicated psuedo-history section.

This solution will greatly reduce the number of insults coming from the direction of angered wisemen such as ourselves.


You shouldn’t be insulting people who share their opinions and disagree with you in civilized manner.

We are free to think and observe the subject as we think it’s correct.

Your absolutist way of debating with people is not welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jana]

It's native Balkan but it just hasn't evolved much I guess as it's basal E-V13>CTS5856* which is the ancestral clade of almost every E-V13 downstream.

AnciE1nt :D

[Bosniensis]

EV13 is 0% in Africa except some few percentages in former Roman colonies.

Alexandria is full of ev13 Libya etc they have more ev13 than Greece and Albania of course.

That is the home place of ev13 a mutation of E haplogroup


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[Wrong]

You shouldn’t be insulting people who share their opinions and disagree with you in civilized manner.

We are free to think and observe the subject as we think it’s correct.

Your absolutist way of debating with people is not welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We saw how "religious freedom" worked out with your kind of 3 different faiths in the 90s.

[Kelmendasi]

Thanks :) My maternal ancestry is from small island in Adriatic sea. Could it be from Antes ?
I-Y4460 could be linked to the Baltic Veneti but I think that Antes actually could be a good candidate https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/i-y4460-ydna/

[Kelmendasi]

Alexandria is full of ev13 Libya etc they have more ev13 than Greece and Albania of course.

That is the home place of ev13 a mutation of E haplogroup


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Stop with the trolling man. E-V13 reaches it's peak among Kosovar Albanians at around 35-45%. Tunisians and other Africans hardly have any E-V13 and those who do have clades linked to a Balkan origin. North Africans are E-M81 when it comes to E not E-V13. E-V13 originates in the Balkans possibly in the Cardial/Impresso culture

[Teutonski]

No idea about the topic but I was reading the whole thread so far cause of Bosinensis and how others react to him hahsgahatsga

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's been so long ago since I saw similar (and laughed so much at) maciamo's garbage

[Aren]

It's native Balkan but it just hasn't evolved much I guess as it's basal E-V13>CTS5856* which is the ancestral clade of almost every E-V13 downstream.

If I remember correctly the TMRCA of CTS5856 is aprox 2000 BC which is kinda weird considering Kurds have around 10% E-V13, wonder what that ancestor was?

[Wrong]

If I remember correctly the TMRCA of CTS5856 is aprox 2000 BC which is kinda weird considering Kurds have around 10% E-V13, wonder what that ancestor was?
Romans or Byzantines during the Sasanian front, or against the Arabs. Could have been even Arnaut mercenaries employed by the Ottomans in the eastern front.

I'm not even kidding.

[Kelmendasi]

If I remember correctly the TMRCA of CTS5856 is aprox 2000 BC which is kinda weird considering Kurds have around 10% E-V13, wonder what that ancestor was?
Yh the TMRCA is around 2000 BC as it is 4200ybp. What clade does the E-V13 in Kurds come under? Depending on clade it could possibly be from Hellenic/Balkan or Roman influence in the region or perhaps Indo-Iranians that may have carried small amounts of E-V13 but i'm not really sure about the clades that they would've carried

[Wrong]

Yh the TMRCA is around 2000 BC as it is 4200ybp. What clade does the E-V13 in Kurds come under? Depending on clade it could possibly be from Hellenic/Balkan or Roman influence in the region or perhaps Indo-Iranians that may have carried small amounts of E-V13 but i'm not really sure about the clades that they would've carried
Kurds are not native to Mesopotamia though, they came there during the Plague of Justinian, from their native Eastern Iranic lands.

[Kelmendasi]

Kurds are not native to Mesopotamia though, they came there after the plague of Justinian from Eastern Iranic lands.
They are considered to be the descendants of the Medes who were an Iranic peoples from northwestern Iran.

[Jana]

Arent Ossetians the pure Aryans? what are they?

Yes they originate from Alans and speak Iranic language. Thy are Aryan.

[Wrong]

They are considered to be the descendants of the Medes who were an Iranic peoples from northwestern Iran.
Plague and Turko-Mongols forced them westwards after time.

[Aren]

Yh the TMRCA is around 2000 BC as it is 4200ybp. What clade does the E-V13 in Kurds come under? Depending on clade it could possibly be from Hellenic/Balkan or Roman influence in the region or perhaps Indo-Iranians that may have carried small amounts of E-V13 but i'm not really sure about the clades that they would've carried

I'm not sure either but the fact that CTS5856 is rather young is kinda weird since only Kurds and some Iranians in the ME have significant amount of E-V13, yet I don't think it has been found in either Sintashta or Andronovo samples.

[Kelmendasi]

I'm not sure either but the fact that CTS5856 is rather young is kinda weird since only Kurds and some Iranians in the ME have significant amount of E-V13, yet I don't think it has been found in either Sintashta or Andronovo samples.
Yh so far it hasn't been found in any IE culture so it is still unknown whether they carried E-V13 with them. I would still say that some could've expanded with Indo-Iranians but the majority of E-V13 in the region seems to be of European origin from the Classical era to the Medieval era

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Celts came from Anatolia, so they are not Indo-Europeans.

As I said, there are PRESERVED Celtic languages today, and those are Irish and Welsh. They are both Indo-European languages. The language speak for itself. Linguists know their job surely.


Only Germans are Indo-Europeans and for that reason they are not Europeans.

Germans, Balts, Slavs, Celts, Latins, Albanians, Iranians.... etc etc....

[Vlatko Vukovic]

You speak sense here. I thought all Bosniaks had the same brain when it comes to haplogroup.

Bosniensis mentality is dangerous... Is the cause of genocides against real native Balkan(Albanians/Vlachs) peoples.

Maybe i am wrong, but it seems like he is obsessed with Roman Empire, and he speaks like Germans are not European, but when you say 'Germany', it means the hearth of Europe, culturally and in any other aspect.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Thanks :) My maternal ancestry is from small island in Adriatic sea. Could it be from Antes ?

According to archeology and toponyms (hydronyms), Antes were Slavicized Sarmatians. :)

[Jana]

According to archeology and toponyms (hydronyms), Antes were Slavicized Sarmatians. :)

aren't Antes one of 3 slavic branches, togheder with Sclavenians and Wendes ?
I tought they are ancestors of eastern slavs :)

[Kelmendasi]

aren't Antes one of 3 slavic branches, togheder with Sclavenians and Wendes ?
I tought they are ancestors of eastern slavs :)
Yh I thought that they were mentioned as being part of the same tribe as the Sclanveni.

[Aren]

Plague and Turko-Mongols forced them westwards after time.

Northwestern Iranic speakers were present in Iran already during the 9th century BC, but they didn't become a majority in modern day Iraqi Kurdistan until 12th century AD.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

aren't Antes one of 3 slavic branches, togheder with Sclavenians and Wendes ?
I tought they are ancestors of eastern slavs :)

Yup, but.....

"According to the Sarmatians-Antes link, the Antes were a sub-group of the Alans, which dominated the Black Sea and north Caucasus region during the "Late Sarmatian Period". The Antes were based between the Prut and lower Dniester during the 1st to 2nd centuries AD. From the 4th century, their center of power shifted northward toward the southern Bug. In the fifth and sixth centuries they settled in Volhynia and subsequently in the middle Dnieper region near the present-day city of Kiev.[20] As they moved north from the open steppe to the forest steppe. They organised the Slavic tribes and the name Antes came to be used for the mixed Slavo-Alanic body.[20][note 1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)#Hypothetical

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Yh I thought that they were mentioned as being part of the same tribe as the Sclanveni.

No one should take Roman and Byzantine sources as 100% correct, since they sometimes were contradictory to each other.

[Jana]

Yup, but.....

"According to the Sarmatians-Antes link, the Antes were a sub-group of the Alans, which dominated the Black Sea and north Caucasus region during the "Late Sarmatian Period". The Antes were based between the Prut and lower Dniester during the 1st to 2nd centuries AD. From the 4th century, their center of power shifted northward toward the southern Bug. In the fifth and sixth centuries they settled in Volhynia and subsequently in the middle Dnieper region near the present-day city of Kiev.[20] As they moved north from the open steppe to the forest steppe. They organised the Slavic tribes and the name Antes came to be used for the mixed Slavo-Alanic body.[20][note 1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)#Hypothetical

I predict Sarmatians to be R1a, Q , J2 (typical steppe lineages)

Y4460 has wide distribution, so I think Antes could be but not the Iranic elite just Slav commoners :D
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/I2a-Dinaric-Y4460-frequency-per-country.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

I predict Sarmatians to be R1a, Q , J2 (typical steppe lineages)

Y4460 has wide distribution, so I think Antes could be but not the Iranic elite just Slav commoners :D
[im]http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/I2a-Dinaric-Y4460-frequency-per-country.jpg[/img]
Going by the samples that we have the Sarmatians were mainly R1a, G2a, J2a and J1 although these are based on Alans

[Jana]

Going by the samples that we have the Sarmatians were mainly R1a, G2a, J2a and J1 although these are based on Alans

They were autosomaly like Russians + around 10 mongoloid if I remember well
Quite more European than Schyntians

[Dibran]

I'm inclined to believe that given the distribution of ev13. Also that J2 expanded with slavs. It cme from the east.

No. Some clades that were absorbed by Slavs expanded during the middle ages with them, and its these select clusters. Much like I form an Albanian founder effect in R1a, which is a separate case from the rest of R1a. Same thing. E-V13/J2 majority is Balkanic, a few clades that were more widespread in europe expanded later with Slavs but not all of it. That would be completely ignorant to claim. You would then be claiming majority of Albanians are Slavs.

[Dibran]

Look at the dates of the infractions and then the expiration dates:

https://i.imgur.com/7CaZOOs.png

:picard2:

Hes ignored all my posts regarding the Albanian founder effect in my cluster, and is yet to update his trees. I will give him the benefit of the doubt until the terminal clade is defined and submitted to ISOGG. He definitely has some sort of Agenda. Trojet and other users had to correct him for leaving out Albanians from his V13 tree, and he played dumb.

[Jana]

Better resolution map for *Y4460. Obviously sample numbers are limited, those are only people that uploaded to yfull
http://i12.pixs.ru/storage/5/0/5/Y4460png_5079033_27927505.png

Looks pretty Slavic, as widespread from Sweden and Latvia to Bulgaria and Greece (Peloponnese)

[Hulu]

No. Some clades that were absorbed by Slavs expanded during the middle ages with them, and its these select clusters. Much like I form an Albanian founder effect in R1a, which is a separate case from the rest of R1a. Same thing. E-V13/J2 majority is Balkanic, a few clades that were more widespread in europe expanded later with Slavs but not all of it. That would be completely ignorant to claim. You would then be claiming majority of Albanians are Slavs.

No. Wrong conclusion.

[Dibran]

Even some Greeks from eupedia believe that E-V13 started from Switzerland and moved towards south (?????)
Meanwhile Kosovo and Peloponnesos have more than 40% E-V13 while Switzerland less than 8% :D

True. Diversity is also usually a great indicator of origin despite frequency. Southern Balkans still has the most V13 diversity. Whereas, the rest of Europe is part of restricted clades. Much like theres little diversity in I2-Din, indicating it migrated there later.

[Dibran]

E-V13 is IE, I2a-Din is IE, J2b2-L283 is IE God knows what else people try to claim as IE which make no sense at all considering how highly patriarchal the Proto-IE were.

Doubtful they kept to that with a strict sense. It is like saying placed where it rarely rains will never see rain. There were divergent groups, and considering V13 was already in Europe in the Neolithic, it surely was absorbed into the forming of Indo-Europeans. Otherwise explain V13/J2b elite indo european graves?

[Dibran]

My maternal subclade is rather suprising: *Y4460, which isn't that common in south slavs. It's more spread in northeast Europe, my uncle closely match only one Bulgarian.

I was bit dissaponited to be I2 on both sides, but on the other hand, it's is pretty cool.

:D

Idk how the morely predictor extracted base haplos on my moms line considering shes female olol. Probably some glitch but it predicted R1b-L23 and or I1 basal.

[Jana]

Dinaric-south (PH908) heat map. This is most distinctive south-west slavic marker, peaking among Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs.
http://imghst.co/64/xI2as.png

[Dibran]

Thanks :) My maternal ancestry is from small island in Adriatic sea. Could it be from Antes ?

TMRCA 200BC of your maternal fatherline. Likely Bastarnae/Sarmatians/Dacians could have carried it. Very cool! Too bad Bosniensis cant tell the difference and treats his young clade as ancient lol.

[Nurzat]

so Romania should be recognized as a Latin-speaking Slavic country, right?

[Dibran]

Dinaric-south (PH908) heat map. This is most distinctive south-west slavic marker, peaking among Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs. Highest frequency among BiH Croats in western Herzegovina, followed by Dalmatia and NE Bosnia. Western Serbia and Montenegro (old Herzegovina) have lot of this, too.
http://imghst.co/64/xI2as.png

This is his macro haplo which only dates between 150-350AD. Most Bosnians/Serbs belong to clades downstream PH908 dating between 1100-900ypb

[Jana]

TMRCA 200BC of your maternal fatherline. Likely Bastarnae/Sarmatians/Dacians could have carried it. Very cool! Too bad Bosniensis cant tell the difference and treats his young clade as ancient lol.

He is a clown. Dinaric-south is younger clade than dinaric-north, which means it spread from there (north), not the opposite.

[Jana]

so Romania should be recognized as a Latin-speaking Slavic country, right?

There is lot of Slavic blood in Romania and Moldova. But they are not Slavic, since being slavic speaker is main thing that makes somebody a Slav.

[Dibran]

so Romania should be recognized as a Latin-speaking Slavic country, right?

Depends. Romania has some diversity of both R1a and I2. For instance Y4460 under I2 dates to 200BC. This could have been around with Bastarnae/Dacians/Sarmatians. However, majority of I2-Din in the Balkans belongs to younger clades like PH908 and further downstream to clades 1100-900ypb.

[Jana]

Slavic R1a
https://imghost.io/images/2017/09/22/r1a_ver2.png

R1a M458
https://imghost.io/images/2017/09/27/M458.png

R1a Z280>CTS3402
https://imghost.io/images/2017/09/27/CTS3402.png

*keep in mind these maps are far from being entirely accurate. It is a rough estimation based on currently available data.

[Dibran]

He is a clown. Dinaric-south is younger clade than dinaric-north, which means it spread from there (north), not the opposite.

He's knowingly a clown, which makes it so much worse lolol. If he admits the import of clades/subclades, then he disqualifies his fantasy of being descended from a Pre-Slav. He has this self hating dilemma.

[Jana]

Depends. Romania has some diversity of both R1a and I2. For instance Y4460 under I2 dates to 200BC. This could have been around with Bastarnae/Dacians/Sarmatians. However, majority of I2-Din in the Balkans belongs to younger clades like PH908 and further downstream to clades 1100-900ypb.

But take a look how widespread Y4460 is, even to Sweden and I saw some Finnish samples too. It's more common in northeastern Europe than Romania, yet older sub branches are in Balkan area, around Bulgaria if I am not mistaken.

Which peoples could have caused such wide distribution ?

[Dibran]

Slavic R1a

*keep in mind these maps are far from being entirely accurate. It is a rough estimation based on currently available data.

Here. Check out this guys blog. Gets really detailed. Maps for each cluster.

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-of-dinaric-introduction/

[Aren]

Doubtful they kept to that with a strict sense. It is like saying placed where it rarely rains will never see rain. There were divergent groups, and considering V13 was already in Europe in the Neolithic, it surely was absorbed into the forming of Indo-Europeans. Otherwise explain V13/J2b elite indo european graves?

Two late Bronze Age samples from the Balkans with moderate Steppe input and suddenly J2b and E-V13 are Indo-Europeans. Nevermind the 90%+ ratio of both R1b-M269+ in Yamnaya + Bell beakers and R1a M417 in Sintastha and CWC. As an outsider with no connections to Indo-Europeans or R1(read= no agenda), the most likely scenario seems to be that Early PIE was in Khvalynsk which they have found R1a + R1b together. Everything else got assimilated much later on, like J2b, I1, I2 and E-V13 and so on.

[Dibran]

But take a look how widespread Y4460 is, even to Sweden and I saw some Finnish samples too. It's more common in northeastern Europe than Romania, yet older sub branches are in Balkan area, around Bulgaria if I am not mistaken.

Which peoples could have caused such wide distribution ?

If the oldest ones are around Bulgaria It is possible the younger clades were those developed with movement of Slavic tribes? I could be wrong. Just a thought. I find M458 to be interesting. Has an extremely strong representation in Central Europe. Highest Diversity being in Poland/Germany/Belarus. They could be the Veneti of Tacitus which were attested as possibly Proto-Balts in 69AD long before the Slavic Migrations. They were likely absorbed and pushed westward with the Slavs, and most clades carried to the the Balkans. However there is some diversity of M458 in Romania as well.

[Jana]

If the oldest ones are around Bulgaria It is possible the younger clades were those developed with movement of Slavic tribes? I could be wrong. Just a thought. I find M458 to be interesting. Has an extremely strong representation in Central Europe. Highest Diversity being in Poland/Germany/Belarus. They could be the Veneti of Tacitus which were attested as possibly Proto-Balts in 69AD long before the Slavic Migrations. They were likely absorbed and pushed westward with the Slavs, and most clades carried to the the Balkans. However there is some diversity of M458 in Romania as well.

Yes, possible :thumb001: Romania is interesting, holds high diversity for R1a/I2 while being non Slavic speaking. It is very interesting thing to consider :)

[Dibran]

Yes, possible :thumb001: Romania is interesting, holds high diversity for R1a/I2 while being non Slavic speaking. It is very interesting thing to consider :)

Idk how true it is, but supposedly Dacian may have been related to(not the same as) Proto-Balto-Slavic. Cousins if you will. Some perhaps some old I2/R1a were likely present in them. For example your mothers fatherline being dated to 200BC could have been a minor lineage in Dacians(I think R1b/J2/V13 would still have been prominant), and maybe even Bastarnae. I would bank on Bastarnae as they were hired by King Phillip around this time and brought to Macedonia. Possibly moving from Macedonia with middle ages byzantines/vlachs. I am spitballing here though lolol. Maybe even Sarmatians, as I have heard many claim Croatians may have some link with Sarmatians.

My clade for instance could be a Germanized Proto-Balt that was initially a Veneti documented by Tacitus and could explain how it was absorbed in, and formed a founder affect so early on in Albanians. Or a possibility is that it arrived with Antes Mercenaries around 300AD whom were used by the Romans against the Huns. Then you have those who claim Antes were not originally Slavic, so reconciling all these things are a cluster fudge lolol. Things were so turbulent in the middle ages.

[Dibran]

EV13 is 0% in Africa except some few percentages in former Roman colonies.

He doesnt believe in subclades, unless its up to I2a1. Sardinia Power!!! lolol.

[Dibran]

It's native Balkan but it just hasn't evolved much I guess as it's basal E-V13>CTS5856* which is the ancestral clade of almost every E-V13 downstream.

Alot of basal clades are coming out of Mirdita and Dibra. No matter the haplo. Very interesting stuff.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Which Slavic haplogroup is reportered to be found in Iberia? Don't tell me that it is your R1b-DF27 Peterski, lmao.

[Dibran]

I-Y4460 could be linked to the Baltic Veneti but I think that Antes actually could be a good candidate https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/i-y4460-ydna/

Also possible Bastarnae considering Her line is basal(200BC). If not Antes would be a good bet. I been reading alot about the Baltic Veneti references by Tacitus as neighbors to the Germanic tribes. They were mentioned around Gdansk as early as 69AD. Possibly my line emanated from there. I have some matches in Gdansk dating between 2300-2000ypb.

[Dibran]

No. Wrong conclusion.

Evidence begs to differ I am afraid.

[Dibran]

Which Slavic haplogroup is reportered to be found in Iberia? Don't tell me that it is your R1b-DF27 Peterski, lmao.

Z280. It likely didn't get there with Slavs though. More likely Goths. Unless they are younger clades. then maybe Slavic pirates that moved with the vikings or slavic mercenaries? Idk. lol

[Nurzat]

There is lot of Slavic blood in Romania and Moldova. But they are not Slavic, since being slavic speaker is main thing that makes somebody a Slav.

it's also the way of life, Romanians and Russians resemble a lot in drunkard contemporary customs / housing / how they interact / violence / cityscapes etc

and there are a lot of native Slavs (Rusyns, Hutsuls, Hohols and Lipovans) with their compact zones in Romania (like me)

I think Romanians are much closer to Russians than to Croats for example from a lot of points of view, then a Russian and a Bulgarian don't understand each other anyway, so Slavicness of the language is only a face of the cubicle

[Kelmendasi]

Alot of basal clades are coming out of Mirdita and Dibra. No matter the haplo. Very interesting stuff.
Yh, basal clades of J2b2 seem to be coming out of the Mirdita and Mati regions whilst we have now discovered that my maternal Ydna which is from Dibra is basal E-V13>CTS5856* and you have a basal form of L1029

[Kelmendasi]

Also possible Bastarnae considering Her line is basal(200BC). If not Antes would be a good bet. I been reading alot about the Baltic Veneti references by Tacitus as neighbors to the Germanic tribes. They were mentioned around Gdansk as early as 69AD. Possibly my line emanated from there. I have some matches in Gdansk dating between 2300-2000ypb.
I would say that the southern Slav clades of I2a1b could have a higher correlation to the Bastarnae but the more eastern Slav clades I think have a Veneti or Ante link

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Z280. It likely didn't get there with Slavs though. More likely Goths. Unless they are younger clades. then maybe Slavic pirates that moved with the vikings or slavic mercenaries? Idk. lol

According to the Eupedia map it is both in Suebi and Visigothic regions, though they were all over the peninsula.

The reason is probably a lot easier to find than how a Pole ended up getting most common haplogroup in Iberia, lmao.

[Jana]

it's also the way of life, Romanians and Russians resemble a lot in drunkard contemporary customs / housing / how they interact / violence / cityscapes etc

and there are a lot of native Slavs (Rusyns, Hutsuls, Hohols and Lipovans) with their compact zones in Romania (like me)

I think Romanians are much closer to Russians than to Croats for example from a lot of points of view, then a Russian and a Bulgarian don't understand each other anyway, so Slavicness of the language is only a face of the cubicle

Yes there are lot of people with East Slavic origin in Romania, I read some were assimilated while other kept their identity.

You are lot closer to Russians than we are, but Russians are by no means benchmark of Slavicnes.

We are closer to Western Slavs, Slovaks in particular.

But Croatian culture is really distinct, especially in Dalmatia. We have mediterranean customs, and yet I feel very Slavic- Sea Slavic :)

[Marmara]

How reliable is this map?

[Kelmendasi]

How reliable is this map?
It's alright I guess, but obviously not the most accurate

[ovidiu]

Idk how true it is, but supposedly Dacian may have been related to(not the same as) Proto-Balto-Slavic. Cousins if you will. Some perhaps some old I2/R1a were likely present in them. For example your mothers fatherline being dated to 200BC could have been a minor lineage in Dacians(I think R1b/J2/V13 would still have been prominant), and maybe even Bastarnae. I would bank on Bastarnae as they were hired by King Phillip around this time and brought to Macedonia. Possibly moving from Macedonia with middle ages byzantines/vlachs. I am spitballing here though lolol. Maybe even Sarmatians, as I have heard many claim Croatians may have some link with Sarmatians.

My clade for instance could be a Germanized Proto-Balt that was initially a Veneti documented by Tacitus and could explain how it was absorbed in, and formed a founder affect so early on in Albanians. Or a possibility is that it arrived with Antes Mercenaries around 300AD whom were used by the Romans against the Huns. Then you have those who claim Antes were not originally Slavic, so reconciling all these things are a cluster fudge lolol. Things were so turbulent in the middle ages.

That's rather unlikely, but I've heard that theory; no way to make a firm conclusion though. They were more likely connected to Thracians, but may have become a more diverse people, meaning the northern and southern ends of the Dacian culture, which was surprisingly widespread and even incorporated some Celts called the Boii in central Europe, were probably not uniform even in ancient times, and may have been "overlaid" on older regional tribes, so to speak. So there could have been haplogroup diversity. It is known they did interact with Bastarnae (supposedly a Celto-Germanic hybrid tribe) in the north and Scytho-Sarmatians in the east and probably assimilated some of them. Not to mention the migrations of the early Middle Ages also throwing things into disarray.

Also looking closely at this map I see some things that don't make sense and are the opposite of what you'd expect. Like the lightest pockets on the map for Romanian speaking areas are the eastern part of the country and Moldova? I find that extremely hard to believe. I don't know how serious this Maciamo guy is about this stuff.

[Pubiczar]

That's rather unlikely, but I've heard that theory; no way to make a firm conclusion though. They were more likely connected to Thracians, but may have become a more diverse people, meaning the northern and southern ends of the Dacian culture, which was surprisingly widespread and even incorporated some Celts called the Boii in central Europe, were probably not uniform even in ancient times, and may have been "overlaid" on older regional tribes, so to speak. So there could have been haplogroup diversity. It is known they did interact with Bastarnae (supposedly a Celto-Germanic hybrid tribe) in the north and Scytho-Sarmatians in the east and probably assimilated some of them. Not to mention the migrations of the early Middle Ages also throwing things into disarray.

Also looking closely at this map I see some things that don't make sense and are the opposite of what you'd expect. Like the lightest pockets on the map for Romanian speaking areas are the eastern part of the country and Moldova? I find that extremely hard to believe. I don't know how serious this Maciamo guy is about this stuff.

There was connection and that connection would be the I2a1b haplogroup which is the most dominant in the South Slavs and Romanians.
In other Slavs is not so dominant apart from South Polish and Western Ukrainians.
And exactly these two populations could have been proxies for the medieval Slavs that invaded the Balkans, showing that the medieval Slavs that invaded the Balkans, were already more southern shifted than the other Slavs due contacts with Dacians and elevated I2a1b...

[Fieraru]

it's also the way of life, Romanians and Russians resemble a lot in drunkard contemporary customs / housing / how they interact / violence / cityscapes etc

and there are a lot of native Slavs (Rusyns, Hutsuls, Hohols and Lipovans) with their compact zones in Romania (like me)

I think Romanians are much closer to Russians than to Croats for example from a lot of points of view, then a Russian and a Bulgarian don't understand each other anyway, so Slavicness of the language is only a face of the cubicle


so Romania should be recognized as a Latin-speaking Slavic country, right?

Who the hell you think you are saying shit like that? I can't believe you would say something that ignorant. Do you know how insulting that is to us? It is clear why you say such things... you are some kind of Ruso-Ukrainian minority and want to feel closer to the population you live in so you try to drag them together :rolleyes2: Very transparent. Also, you are probably mostly used to the area right next to the Ukraine border where people are closer to that and there are actually hundreds of integrated or assimilated Ukrainian families. So you cannot speak for all or real, true Romanians. You have some nerve saying nonsense like that.

How the hell is Romania closer to Russia than other Slavic countries? Croats and most Yugoslavs always come up genetically closer to the main Slavic plot you fool. Bulgarians do not because they were probably pulled south by Turks I think. Northern Croatia and Slovenia has a lot of Baltid and Gorid people. Man this forum make no sense sometimes. Sure the culture in Dalmatia may be more Mediterranean influenced because of climate but that is a different argument. I do not know what you mean by drinking culture. We do not drink much vodka and prefer wine or beer , or at least local spirits like tuica/rachiu (we are one of the oldest wine growing regions in the world, for thousnds of years!). And we do not react the same way you Russians do getting retarded and fucked up and red like Indians from drinking, and doing it all the time cause we have nothing better to do. Except for some lower class idiots we are more civilized with that. We have not that degenerate gopnik culture or whatever it is. Our food is very different too, and we have central Euro influences added to Balkan. Bucharest and Transylvanian cities like Sibiu and Brasov is not really like Russian ones... we have nice Europen architecture compared to depressing ones there, except St. Petersburg and some parts of Moscow. It is a pity the communists, who you people are responsible for, demolished a lot of the old French type buildings and put ugly blocks.

[Wrong]

In pre-Slavic times, Albanians and Romanians were very close-related populations.

Albanians and Aromanians were very similar pre-1400s.

[Pubiczar]

In pre-Slavic times, Albanians and Romanians were very close-related populations.

Albanians and Aromanians were very similar pre-1400s.

Don't confuse the Aromanians with the Romanians mate.
They may have similar language but their ethno genesis is different.
Aromanians are from the south Balkans while the majority of Romanians are native of Romania.

[Wrong]

Don't confuse the Aromanians with the Romanians mate.
They may have similar language but their ethno genesis is different.
Aromanians are from the south Balkans while the majority of Romanians are native of Romania.
I did not confuse, but the Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians were of similar IE-Balkan roots.

Romanians aren't much more northern than Albanians for example, the only thing that pulls them more north is a north-eastern pull and even then I have seen few Ghegs plot just west of them.

Imagine how close to us both they would plot if it was not for their larger Balto-Slavic influence.

[Nurzat]

Don't confuse the Aromanians with the Romanians mate.
They may have similar language but their ethno genesis is different.
Aromanians are from the south Balkans while the majority of Romanians are native of Romania.

in the times he talks about Romanians were actually there in Aromanian territory, where they came from to the future territory of Romania. Balkanic Vlachs came to Romania about 12th-14th century AD and then gradually assimilated the local Slavs, Magyars, Cumans, Germanics etc to this day

[Pubiczar]

in the times he talks about Romanians were actually there in Aromanian territory, where they came from to the future territory of Romania. Balkanic Vlachs came to Romania about 12th-14th century AD and then gradually assimilated the local Slavs, Magyars, Cumans, Germanics etc to this day

That's what I am talking about...
The majority is native to Romania.
A part of them did come to present day Valachia from the South Balkans, where they established a Vlachian principality, conquered the rest of the land, and imposed the language to the rest of the population

[Wrong]

in the times he talks about Romanians were actually there in Aromanian territory, where they came from to the future territory of Romania. Balkanic Vlachs came to Romania about 12th-14th century AD and then gradually assimilated the local Slavs, Magyars, Cumans, Germanics etc to this day
Albanian & Aromanian movements exploded in the late 1200s, both into Greece, Romania & some to Bulgaria aswell.

Both of the groups often moved together, to Greece it was majority Albanian movement with Aromanian support & to Romania it was the reverse.

[Dibran]

That's rather unlikely, but I've heard that theory; no way to make a firm conclusion though. They were more likely connected to Thracians, but may have become a more diverse people, meaning the northern and southern ends of the Dacian culture, which was surprisingly widespread and even incorporated some Celts called the Boii in central Europe, were probably not uniform even in ancient times, and may have been "overlaid" on older regional tribes, so to speak. So there could have been haplogroup diversity. It is known they did interact with Bastarnae (supposedly a Celto-Germanic hybrid tribe) in the north and Scytho-Sarmatians in the east and probably assimilated some of them. Not to mention the migrations of the early Middle Ages also throwing things into disarray.

Also looking closely at this map I see some things that don't make sense and are the opposite of what you'd expect. Like the lightest pockets on the map for Romanian speaking areas are the eastern part of the country and Moldova? I find that extremely hard to believe. I don't know how serious this Maciamo guy is about this stuff.

Well on the indo-european language tree I believe Thracian and Dacian(as paleo-balkan) were related to(distantly) Proto-Balto-Slavic. Much the same as Latin and Greek are related in antiquity but completely separate languages. So a loose connection if you will. Romania has some of the highest R1a/I2a diversity outside of Poland. So What you mention regarding Central European tribes could be true.

Maciamo map is definitely not completely accurate. He makes a general assumption off the basis of I2a/R1a combined. Also i think he has different and or incomplete sources. For instance he didn't even include Albanian branches in his E-V13 tree until Albanians had to correct him. Which is odd considering we have the highest E-V13 in Europe. Some would think he may have some sort of agenda.

I like Vayda's blog. Some Polish user that has the most up to date maps regarding various R1a/I2a clusters and where they're more predominant. Doesn't seem to focus on other Haplos though. Would be nice if he did.

[Dibran]

There was connection and that connection would be the I2a1b haplogroup which is the most dominant in the South Slavs and Romanians.
In other Slavs is not so dominant apart from South Polish and Western Ukrainians.
And exactly these two populations could have been proxies for the medieval Slavs that invaded the Balkans, showing that the medieval Slavs that invaded the Balkans, were already more southern shifted than the other Slavs due contacts with Dacians and elevated I2a1b...

I2a1b was found in Northern Europe. I think Sweden. So it doesn't have a connection to Dacians in the strict sense. Some clades may have been absorbed by Dacians in the late Iron Age. They were most likely dominant in R1b-L23. Additionally South Slavs belong to a young clade PH908 predominantly. PH908 dates to 150-350AD. Also, majority belong to younger clades further downstream PH908 which are only 900-1100 years old. Meaning their earliest founder ancestor was a middle ages Slav. This is not so much the case with Romanians and Ukrainians who have a more diverse mix of I2a1b, including Stearsolina and her maternal fatherline clade dating to 200BC. In such a case these older branches may have been atypical lineages of Dacians, much the same as R1a/I2a occur atypically in say Albanians today. The ony I2a1b sample we have, which belongs to the typical south slavic variety, was dated to the middle ages found in a Pole.

[Dibran]

I did not confuse, but the Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians were of similar IE-Balkan roots.

Romanians aren't much more northern than Albanians for example, the only thing that pulls them more north is a north-eastern pull and even then I have seen few Ghegs plot just west of them.

Imagine how close to us both they would plot if it was not for their larger Balto-Slavic influence.

We also share the most words with Romanians out of our neighbors despite the gap between us. Suggesting we were mostly neighbors prior to the migrations.

[Pubiczar]

I2a1b was found in Northern Europe. I think Sweden. So it doesn't have a connection to Dacians in the strict sense. Some clades may have been absorbed by Dacians in the late Iron Age. They were most likely dominant in R1b-L23. Additionally South Slavs belong to a young clade PH908 predominantly. PH908 dates to 150-350AD. Also, majority belong to younger clades further downstream PH908 which are only 900-1100 years old. Meaning their earliest founder ancestor was a middle ages Slav. This is not so much the case with Romanians and Ukrainians who have a more diverse mix of I2a1b, including Stearsolina and her maternal fatherline clade dating to 200BC. In such a case these older branches may have been atypical lineages of Dacians, much the same as R1a/I2a occur atypically in say Albanians today. The ony I2a1b sample we have, which belongs to the typical south slavic variety, was dated to the middle ages found in a Pole.

We don't know for sure.
We still need lots more early medieval samples, especially for people living in Romania around that time.
There was contact between Slavs and people living in what is today North-West and North-East Romania for sure.
We don't know weather these people were Dacians or not, but I2a1b is the most dominant in exactly those parts of Romania and I believe very diverse too.
That could explain why Southern Polish and Western Ukrainians have elevated percentages of I2a1b, while the rest of the east and west Slavs not so much.

[Dick]

We also share the most words with Romanians out of our neighbors despite the gap between us. Suggesting we were mostly neighbors prior to the migrations.

I thought it was greks?

[Dibran]

We don't know for sure.
We still need lots more early medieval samples, especially for people living in Romania around that time.
There was contact between Slavs and people living in what is today North-West and North-East Romania for sure.
We don't know weather these people were Dacians or not, but I2a1b is the most dominant in exactly those parts of Romania and I believe very diverse too.
That could explain why Southern Polish and Western Ukrainians have elevated percentages of I2a1b, while the rest of the east and west Slavs not so much.

The problem is theres relatively little to no diversity in South-Slavic I2a1b. Theres more diversity of I2a1b in Poland than South Slavs. Suggesting a North-South migration. Also, Romanians and Ukrainians have more diverse I2a1b than South-Slavs. You can argue some I2a1b in Romanians and Ukrainians may be due to late iron age Dacians. However, this would not be the case in most Southern Slavs. Slavs in general outside north-west europe, Slavs are some of the more abundantly tested ethnic groups in general. Yet despite that, they still have little diversity in their clades. They show bottlenecks/founder effects dating to the migration period. Slavs also developed from the Kiev Culture which was between Romania and Ukraine. Yet, they still do not belong to some of the older subclades found in those areas. It is true, I2a1b fades more in west Slavs, but they still have between 5-12 percent. East Slavs have between 15-21 percent which is still significant. Despite having less than South-Slavs, East Slavs still have more I2a1b diversity. Diversity is indicative of origin in most cases. When majority of South-Slavic I2a1b descends from one or 2 people it can't be said that it was dominant in a paleo-balkan people like Dacians. Otherwise the diversity should have a South-North cline.

[Dibran]

I thought it was greks?

I used to think so too. Most of our words with Greeks appear to be from Doric Greek, but supposedly overall frequency of vocabulary with Romanians/Aromanians.

[Wrong]

I used to think so too. Most of our words with Greeks appear to be from Doric Greek, but supposedly overall frequency of vocabulary with Romanians/Aromanians.
Definitely loanwords from the Doric Greek contact with Illyrians.

[Pubiczar]

The problem is theres relatively little to no diversity in South-Slavic I2a1b. Theres more diversity of I2a1b in Poland than South Slavs. Suggesting a North-South migration. Also, Romanians and Ukrainians have more diverse I2a1b than South-Slavs. You can argue some I2a1b in Romanians and Ukrainians may be due to late iron age Dacians. However, this would not be the case in most Southern Slavs. Slavs in general outside north-west europe, Slavs are some of the more abundantly tested ethnic groups in general. Yet despite that, they still have little diversity in their clades. They show bottlenecks/founder effects dating to the migration period. Slavs also developed from the Kiev Culture which was between Romania and Ukraine. Yet, they still do not belong to some of the older subclades found in those areas. It is true, I2a1b fades more in west Slavs, but they still have between 5-12 percent. East Slavs have between 15-21 percent which is still significant. Despite having less than South-Slavs, East Slavs still have more I2a1b diversity. Diversity is indicative of origin in most cases. When majority of South-Slavic I2a1b descends from one or 2 people it can't be said that it was dominant in a paleo-balkan people like Dacians. Otherwise the diversity should have a South-North cline.

We are on the same page there, I am sure that I2a1b wasn't present in the South Balkans.
However, the other side of Danube was whole different world for which we don't know much about.
We agree that I2a1b is very diverse in North Romania and most dominant and as I said, in the other Slavs is not present that much, apart from Southern Polish and Western Ukrainians.
This could mean that I2a1b have started spreading from North Romania and is present in the Slavs due early contact of the people living in North Romania/Moldavia and the early Slavs.
It's just a theory of mine and I believe is quite plausible as I don't believe that the Slavs were isolated that much.
But rather don't know what was going on in those lands...

[Dibran]

We are on the same page there, I am sure that I2a1b wasn't present in the South Balkans.
However, the other side of Danube was whole different world for which we don't know much about.
We agree that I2a1b is very diverse in North Romania and most dominant and as I said, in the other Slavs is not present that much, apart from Southern Polish and Western Ukrainians.
This could mean that I2a1b have started spreading from North Romania and is present in the Slavs due early contact of the people living in North Romania/Moldavia and the early Slavs.
It's just a theory of mine and I believe is quite plausible as I don't believe that the Slavs were isolated that much.
But rather don't know what was going on in those lands...

Well we can agree a variety of R1a/I2a was present in Dacians. Considering the R1a samples discovered in Neolithic Alexandria, Ukraine and some I2a as well. However it depends on the clade. Say for example you have 2 sons. You are E-V13, lets make a theoretical mutation for your sons, E-V13A and E-V13B. Your line is more common in your civilization. Your two sons migrated northwest and the other northeast. A cataclysm strikes, wiping out Your lineage(E-V13). Generations later, under different names, ethnos, and tribes, your sons lines migrate from both directions to their place of origin. They become fruitful in producing sons. An archaeological dig discovered ancient V13 in the area. However the population of V13A and V13B men now living there would not have descended "directly' from that source population, but from a northwestern/northeastern ethnos that repopulated the area later. This is the case with I2a1b/R1a in the Balkans. There may have been some older R1a/I2a1 that was present, however they either left little mark or were eradicated. The later waves of distant descendants who came from a northern periphery would not be connected directly but indirectly. This would explain why Proto-Balto-Slavic and Dacian/Thracian were distantly related but not the same. Because the latter descended from an earlier migration wave south, whilst the former may be descended from the source population in NE europe that migrated again in the late iron and early middle ages. For example, if 10 years from now 5 percent of South Slavs have older clades of Z280/M458/I2a1b, then it could be argued 5 percent descend from a late iron age movement of tribes that may have moved with Dacians/Bastarnae etc. Whereas the overwhelming remainder would be from the later migrations. Sorry for the huge wall of text. lol. Slavs are an ethnic group much the same as Albanians. Slavs represent a hodge podge of a central source with other converging elements. For Albanians the source population would be Illyrians. With intro of Greeks, Latins, Slavs, Germanics all those converging elements yielded "Albanians". Much the same we could be sure with a central Proto-Slavic population mixed with natives, yielded the later Slavs. This is why West/East/South Slavs are not uniform with Y-DNA. Because West Slavic ethnogenesis did not include Southern Balkans, much like South did not include western Europe etc.

[Jana]

I2a1b is over 20 percent in Polesia thats interesting because I think that region may be proto Slavic area (just a theory)

I am not Aware of any Non Slavic presence in polesia, They may be purest Slavs for all i know!

Did east Germanic tribes ever went there ?

PS sorry for errors i am using mobile phone :)

[Dibran]

I2a1b is over 20 percent in Polesia thats interesting because I think that region may be proto Slavic area (just a theory)

I am not Aware of any Non Slavic presence in polesia, They may be purest Slavs for all i know!

Did east Germanic tribes ever went there ?

PS sorry for errors i am using mobile phone :)

There was only a slight overlap on the westernmost part of Polesia for the Goths. You may be onto something!

[Jana]

There was only a slight overlap on the westernmost part of Polesia for the Goths. You may be onto something!

Than Gothic / East Germanic origin may not be exluded, after all :)
maybe I2a1b men are western European migrants to the east (based on ancient samples location), where they fussed with Indo-European R1a and after some time Slavs were created ?

[Dibran]

Than Gothic / East Germanic origin may not be exluded, after all :)
maybe I2a1b men are western European migrants to the east (based on ancient samples location), where they fussed with Indo-European R1a and after some time Slavs were created ?

I am not sure. I think I2a1 was already in southern and eastern europe given ancient samples. For instance I2a1b* was found in western europe but it was basal. It likely migrated out given the development of clades. I think a bunch of different haplogroups played a role in ethnogenesis of many people. Where I2a1b would be dominant in Slavic ethnogenesis it could be minimal in say Germanic. Heres the map.

https://s33.postimg.cc/6wcae1i3j/east_germnaic.png

[Jana]

I am not sure. I think I2a1 was already in southern and eastern europe given ancient samples. For instance I2a1b* was found in western europe but it was basal. It likely migrated out given the development of clades. I think a bunch of different haplogroups played a role in ethnogenesis of many people. Where I2a1b would be dominant in Slavic ethnogenesis it could be minimal in say Germanic. Heres the map.

https://s33.postimg.cc/6wcae1i3j/east_germnaic.png

True, I just guessing, slavic seem far more likely

There is very little I2a1b among Germanic people they mostly have I2a2 M223 rather :)

[Dibran]

True, I just guessing, slavic seem far more likely

There is very little I2a1b among Germanic people they mostly have I2a2 M223 rather :)

Yes. You are correct. I think I2a1b* was found in Motala though. If I am not mistaken. This was pre-Indo-European though. So, before Germanics arrived. Whereas, The only I2a1b-Din sample under more downstream CTS10228 is found in a medieval Pole. I2a1b* was likely pushed out of Germanic occupied areas with the Indo-European migration. Considering we find no basal I2a1b* in Germanics today.

[Dibran]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So, a new branch of I2a1b was found in a Greek. It just so happens to be basal I-Y18331 which precedes I-A2512. Now considered to form a new branch. The TMRCA has not been nailed down yet, but it could be the same as or older than I-A2512(2200ypb). So far this cluster only has Greeks, and East European Jews. Possibly Bastarnae in this case.

https://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-second-i-s20602-sample-and-greek.html

[Jana]

Yes. You are correct. I think I2a1b* was found in Motala though. If I am not mistaken. This was pre-Indo-European though. So, before Germanics arrived. Whereas, The only I2a1b-Din sample under more downstream CTS10228 is found in a medieval Pole. I2a1b* was likely pushed out of Germanic occupied areas with the Indo-European migration. Considering we find no basal I2a1b* in Germanics today.

What about basal I2-dinari that was found among one Alsatian man (at least I heard that) ? Alsatians are Germanic people of France

[Dibran]

Than Gothic / East Germanic origin may not be exluded, after all :)
maybe I2a1b men are western European migrants to the east (based on ancient samples location), where they fussed with Indo-European R1a and after some time Slavs were created ?


What about basal I2-dinari that was found among one Alsatian man (at least I heard that) ? Alsatians are Germanic people of France

I think he was CTS10228*? Unless that is a modern French sample on Yfull.

[Jana]

I think he was CTS10228*? Unless that is a modern French sample on Yfull.

Yes, it's a living man from France :D

[Dibran]

Yes, it's a living man from France :D

Lol oops. Does yfull upload ancient samples they have full data to? would be nice to see how we all branch from them in our respective lineages.