Classify this Woman

[Maritimer]

Who happens to be me, ha ha!
My Mother is from England. Her genealogy is primarily Anglo-Saxon, but also there are a few other types -- Norman, German, and Scottish. Her ancestors were from Northumberland -- closer to the Humber than the Border, Yorkshire (near York), Hampshire, and Suffolk, East Anglia. My Father is from Ireland. His ancestry doesn't go back as far, so the genealogical information is harder to get for my Father. He's at least 1/4 Anglo or Norman, the rest being Irish.

Thanks for your opinions and help!

[kwp_wp]

You're Nordid, that's it
pretty clear case IMO :)
If I wanted to be more specific I would say Troender variant

[Maritimer]

Thank you that was very quick!

[aherne]

I think you show both Germanic and Celtic elements. Your face is very long, which in this context is a certain sign of Aryan ancestry. This feature is more common in Celts than in Germanics, but in Western Norway it is quite common and considering your ancestry, distant Norse ancestry could explain it just as well. Your nose belongs to Cro-Magnid groups, found in both Irishmen and Scandinavians, less common among N Germans. Your eyes region look typical Irish. Your mouth is inherited from the Aryan side. Your profile is mainly Cro-Magnid. Overall, you look more Irish than German, but overall you show a good balance of Anglo-Celtic features.

[Maritimer]

So far the opinions are Bruenn with Nordid influences, and Nordid, Troender variant.
I'll put another photo here in case it helps. Thank you everyone for your valuable input.

[Agrippa]

I think you are Cromagnoid (rather Dalofaelid or Brünn, depends on the term you prefer) + Nordid , rather equal share of this elements, hard to tell what is dominant. In some pictures I tend to say Cromagnoid is dominant though...

[demiirel]

waiting for Agrippa's verdict

[Nglund]

Anglo-Saxon+Brünn
You give a very British Islander vibe.

[Oreka Bailoak]

I think you show both Germanic and Celtic elements.

There's no such thing as identifiable Celtic or Germanic genetic elements today (based on either physical anthropology or genetics).

Celtic and Germanic are both merely linguistic families and have quite a bit of genetic variability within each group.

Within the Celtic linguistic speakers for example, take for instance a Scottish Celtic speaker and a Welsh speaker. Though both are considered "celtic" they have considerably different genetic background. Read the book "Origin of the British" by Stephen Oppenheimer for information on their differentiating (Scottish are more Scandinavian influenced, while Welsh are more Spanish influenced) and commonalities (both derive from different percentages of similar founding populations, the Scot more from the east, and the Welsh more form the south compared to each other) concerning their genetic background.

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/36788/1_ScannedImage.jpg
^Notice the two seperate founding populations influencing the eastern and the western portions of the British Islands separately. (also notice how back when the British Islands were colonized Ireland is linked to mainland Europe without any water in between!) The majority of British genetics, over 2/3, is derived from this ancient founding population today! (again read the book origins of the British for all this information)

Furthermore the genetic influence of Vikings into Britain is ONLY about 5%.
http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/36788/1_ScannedImagedf.jpg

But that doesn't mean that Northern Germans are only 5% related to the British. In fact there are far larger links due to the fact that a considerable element came out of Germany into the Netherlands and on into the British Islands after the last Ice Age.

And lastly did you know that the common theory on the origins of the Celtic languages has it originating out of Southern Germany. The Danube river is named after the Celtic god Danu, or divine waters.

And to complicate matters even more did you know that Celts once stretched from Ireland to Ukraine to Turkey to Spain? Read the Wikipedia article about the Celtic people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

PS- The anglo-saxon classification, which may be confusing you, has more to do with skull morphology and phenotype rather than the small recent Viking expansion into England during the viking years.

[antonio]

Maybe that theory could be exposed by examples like the London major, a pure Anglosaxon type (I suppose) really scarce across Iberia but also not much spreaded in British Isles.

[Allenson]

Nordid/Brunn. And the same overall type that I am. :)

[Maritimer]

Thank you everyone for your valuable contributions. I seems I am a fairly typical British Islander type. At some point I'll probably get a DNA test done just out of curiosity.

[Davy Jones's Locker]

Maybe that theory could be exposed by examples like the London major, a pure Anglosaxon type (I suppose) really scarce across Iberia but also not much spreaded in British Isles.

Do you mean Boris Johnson? He's not English ethnically.

[aherne]

And lastly did you know that the common theory on the origins of the Celtic languages has it originating out of Southern Germany. The Danube river is named after the Celtic god Danu, or divine waters. .

Danube comes from Danubis, which is a construct made of the Aryan word for river (which also survives in Don, Dnepr, Dnestr). We Romanians use an independent Dacian word, Dunarea, which still in all likelyhood derives from the same Aryan root.

As for Celts and Anglo-Saxon and the genetic evidence you have summoned, other sources say a different story:

A 2002 study from University College London (Weal et al.) was interpreted as showing the possibility of large scale Anglo-Saxon migration to central and eastern England (accounting for 50–100% of the population at the time in Central England).[14] However, a more complete study in 2003 (Capelli et al.) suggests that there may have been substantially less Anglo-Saxon migration to other regions of England, and that the transition between England and Wales was more gradual than the earlier study suggested. The study also provides evidence that all areas of the British Isles have some pre-Anglo-Saxon genetic component. It did not identify a discernible difference in the Y chromosomes of the presumed source populations of Anglo-Saxons and the later Danish Viking settlers, thus the survey registered both sets of chromosomes as belonging to the same group. Further, when the study included the samples from Friesland used by Weale et al. (2002) as a source population for Anglo-Saxons, it found no statistically significant difference between those samples and the North German/Danish group. All continental samples were statistically different to British samples. On the other hand the principal components analysis showed that samples from Friesland, although closer to the North German/Danish samples, were somewhat closer to the British samples than the North German/Danish samples were[15]

It is totally absurd to believe Anglo-Saxons have only contributed with 10% of genes. This is contradicted by historical evidence (which details large scale migration) as well as racial evidence (which shows Germanic elements to be predominant in Eastern England ever since Anglo-Saxon invasion).
If Englishmen would be simply Germanized Britons, Anglo-Saxon would have been packed full of Celtic words, when in fact it has just as many Celtic words as German. On top of that, large scale migration of people from Jutland has emptied the region entirely and the vacuum left was filled by Norsemen. This explains why Danish and not Frisian / Low German is spoken in modern Jutland.

[Aviane]

Anglo-Saxon+Brünn
You give a very British Islander vibe.

British Islander suits her for sure.

This could also mean (main parts such as Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, Isle of Man and Northwest France aka Brittany)

A Saxon-Bruenn.

[Oreka Bailoak]

It is totally absurd to believe Anglo-Saxons have only contributed with 10% of genes.
^ I showed Genetic evidence backing it up (Read the book "Origins of the British" ). The book details EVERY era of immigration from the colonization of the Isles after the Ice age, to the Mesolithic, neolithic, to the bronze age to the iron age and on into the Viking Age. It detail the amount of immigration for each based on Genetic evidence. The results are overwhelming and extensively detailed. The evidence you showed doesn't prove anything, and in fact it agrees with what the DNA evidence the book says, reread this part of your quote.... "However, a more complete study in 2003 (Capelli et al.) suggests that there may have been substantially less Anglo-Saxon migration to other regions of England, and that the transition between England and Wales was more gradual than the earlier study suggested."
^ And your quote doesn't show the percentages of this "new study". But my book does "Origins of the British" in an even more up to date genetic overview of every immigration into the Isles.


It is totally absurd to believe Anglo-Saxons have only contributed with 10% of genes.
^ It is much less than 10% as shown by DNA. But again that doesn't mean that Anglo-Saxons (which are only two distinct Viking groups that immigrated into Britain along with the Jutes and Frisians, and Norwegians) are only linked 5% to the British. This is because they also (Northern Germans and Danish) contributed far greater genetic influence during the far previous eras of immigration (especially the original colonization after the Ice Age).


This is contradicted by historical evidence (which details large scale migration)
^ The stories of overwhelming Viking annihilation of the ethnic British and colonizing their land is STRONGLY discredited in academia today; in other words 100% of educated professors do not believe it. The authors of the stories had agendas behind their writing. Take Geoffry of Monmouth for example. He was a Norman living around the time when Normans were invading and taking over Britain from the Vikings so he naturally talks bad about Vikings as double crossing the native populations and killing them in massive numbers (Hengist, and Horsa for example) in order to justify the Normans "freeing" Britain from the "evil" Vikings. Bede, who was an ultra religious strongly pro-Celtic had a similar agenda. And DNA evidence 100% discredits the false "historical evidence" that says that the British were overwhelmingly massacred and killed off in massive numbers and had their land was colonized by Vikings! In reality many Celts simply learned the English language.


as well as racial evidence (which shows Germanic elements to be predominant in Eastern England ever since Anglo-Saxon invasion).
Again you're confusing the racial influence of Eastern England of the recent immigration of Vikings with the racial influence of far distant colonization of the Brittish Isles after the last Ice Age from the east. And you're not taking into account the immigrations from the Neolithic, Bronze age and Iron Age from the East into the Eastern parts of the British Isles.


If Englishmen would be simply Germanized Britons, Anglo-Saxon would have been packed full of Celtic words, when in fact it has just as many Celtic words as German.
The most important thing to understand is that NOBODY knows how the English language came into existence. It is HIGHLY possible that Germanic immigrants entered Britain in the distant past before the Viking invasions (such as the Bronze Age) and created the ancestor of modern day English language. Some linguists strongly believe that the English language displays archaic traits that weren't common in the languages of the invading Anglo-Saxon-Jutes-Frisians and would logically conclude that the English language diverged from other Germanic languages in the distant past before the Viking Era.

Also how do you know that Anglo-Saxon should have more Celtic words if people learned the language? Can you show me a recent credible linguistic study backing up this statement because I've never seen anything of the like saying that the British had to have been killed off because there are no Celtic words in English.

And again when looking at population migrations the best evidence is DNA- which does not lie. You cannot tell how many people migrated into England from a strongly pro-celtic saint named Bede saying in extremely vague words that most Britain's' were wiped out by Vikings (when the DNA evidence says otherwise). Nor can you tell how many people immigrated by looking at Celtic influence in the English language.

And as for the Danu Celtic god, there is a Danu god in Irish mythology and a Danu god in Hindu mythology. So yes it is an Indo-European god. And the reason why I pointed it out is because it is the closest to the original name in Europe and it also happens to be located right in the middle of the hypothesized origin of the Celtic peoples.

[Maritimer]

Thank you for that informative post. It's so much information to process. The history of England is very complex. It's interesting that you mention Bede since that is the same area some of my ancestors are from. As far as stable continuous areas of ancestry for me, the Sphere of Newcastle is one of them. Wouldn't there be more influence of Germanic blood there, due to it being the seat of the Northumbrian Kingdom, under the Anglo Saxons, then Danes, then Normans. Then another strain goes back to some smaller market towns around Leeds in West Yorkshire, which I get the impression is a less Germanicized population.
On my Father's side, they were around Cork and a mixture of native Irish and again more Englishmen who had come over to settle in Ireland with a Norman surname. And of coarse Cork had the Norse influx, which I think has something to do with their very strange accent!
I saw something on the Internet talking about the Celtic Kingdoms around West Riding of Yorkshire, which is the division Leeds is in, that they were particularly strong Celtic Kingdoms, The Kingdom of Elmet.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

In my opinion she may be east-baltic

[mymy]

In my opinion she may be east-baltic

Are you serious? To me she is nothing like east-baltic. Her face is too long, eyes different shaped, small lips, cheekbons less prominent... I don't see anyrhing baltic there...

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

Are you serious? To me she is nothing like east-baltic. Her face is too long, eyes different shaped, small lips, cheekbons less prominent... I don't see anyrhing baltic there...

probably you are influenced by the background in the photos, it looks like britain, but the shape of her eyes are common in Poland, Lithuania, Finland and other countries over there.

[Peasant]

Is Oppenheimer's book based just on his own studies that are not peer reviewed?

[mymy]

probably you are influenced by the background in the photos, it looks like britain, but the shape of her eyes are common in Poland, Lithuania, Finland and other countries over there.

Maybe, but to me they don't look east-baltic... they are too horizontal. About those countries i don't know, but she definitely don't look Russian.

[Mordid]

I agree with MyMy. She doesn't looks Russian or Polish in general. She looks what she is - Western European.

[Saruman]

There is nothing East-Baltid about her.

[Mordid]

probably you are influenced by the background in the photos, it looks like britain, but the shape of her eyes are common in Poland, Lithuania, Finland and other countries over there.

Her eye doesn't looks Eastern European at all. When I think of Eastern European eyeshape, I think of sad looking (Slavic soul) eye something like this :

http://img.interia.pl/rozrywka/nimg/Malgorzata_Kozuchowska_1191583.jpg

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

finnish woman

http://www.icenews.is/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/finn-president.jpg

and the examinated specimen

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7235&d=1298750247

[mymy]

this finnish woman also doesn't look east baltid to me, if have some influence then it is not the only one.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

she's Tarja Kaarina, president of Finland, she's a pure finnish woman.

[mymy]

she's Tarja Kaarina, president of Finland, she's a pure finnish woman.

nobody said she isn't pure finnish, where you read it?

[The Ripper]

she's Tarja Kaarina, president of Finland, she's a pure finnish woman.

Tarja Kaarina. So you're on a first name basis with her. :D

Had her parents known the speech impediments she'd develop, they wouldn't have given her that name, poor thing. :(:D

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

Tarja Kaarina. So you're on a first name basis with her. :D

Had her parents known the speech impediments she'd develop, they wouldn't have given her that name, poor thing. :(:D


Halonen, Tarja Kaarina Halonen
I had forgotten the surname sorry :D

[Troll's Puzzle]

Is Oppenheimer's book based just on his own studies that are not peer reviewed?

it was his own work AFAIK (the genetics anyway).

Oppenheimer got a bunch of stuff wrong in his book, most glaringly his frankly silly ideas on the origins of the English language

[Maritimer]

My generation is the first to be born outside the British Isles, and our families were in rural areas, not a lot of outsider influx, so I don't think there could be any baltic in there. I do have a tendency to squint my eyes sometimes -- when I have to smile for a camera, and due to sensitivity to sunlight, even on cloudy days! Maybe that is what you are seeing?