Possible proof of more RECENT Greek/Albanian input in Apulia, Lucania, and Trapani (S. Italy)

[Sikeliot]

From Sarno et al.

It is too bad that Syracuse was not studied, since Trapani and Syracuse were two of the last places in Sicily to lose the Greek language.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

First, it places mainland Greeks and Albanians, overall, in a cluster that is more related to northern Italians rather than southern Italians. Then, it divides Greek islands into two clusters, one of which is shared with east-central Sicily and Calabria, and then the other with Trapani and Apulia/Basilicata.


"On the other hand, individuals from SSI, Crete and the Aegean/Dodecanese Greek Islands are mostly assigned to two other groups. The first one (CE-Sicily, limegreen in Fig. 3) is observed mainly in Central-Eastern Sicily and Calabria (excluding Calabrian Greeks), jointly with various Cretan and Anatolian/Dodecanese Greeks. The second one (AW-Sicily, purple in Fig. 3) encompasses individuals from the geographically opposed areas of Basilicata/Apulia (including Salentino Greeks) and Western Sicily (most notably Sicilian Arbereshe), as well as the remaining individuals from both continental and insular Greece. Importantly, these clusters appear tightly related with each other, showing some degree of admixture within a genetically continuous area (Supplementary Fig. S5, Supplementary Table S4). However, they provide the framework for a finer exploration of subtle differentiation patterns, showing differences in their representativeness within different SSI populations. In fact, the AW-Sicily cluster is more properly related to all the Greek-speaking populations (not only Crete and Aegean/Dodecanese Greeks, but also Continental Greece), while the CE-Sicily one is essentially observed in the Mediterranean ‘continuum’ populations (i.e. Southern Italy and Greek-speaking islands). Finally, Cypriots and Calabrian Greeks exhibit private population-specific genetic clusters (white and aquamarine in Fig. 3, respectively)."



They do not find any Balkan IBD sharing in Calabria or east-central Sicily, but they do find it in Trapani and Apulia/Basilicata:


"Interestingly, despite showing much lower values of sharing, some Balkan IBD-relatedness also emerges in Greek-speaking islands as well as in Apulia and Western Sicily, presumptively reproducing some forms of interaction with Greece and the Balkans in the very recent ancestry of these areas, as consistently signalled by a common sharing of individuals in the FineSTRUCTURE AW-Sicily cluster (see also Supplementary Information)."


They also find additional Steppe input compared to Calabria and east-central Sicily:


"In most cases, these events depict populations from the ‘continuum’, and particularly the two SSI-clusters (CE-Sicily and AW-Sicily), as a mixture of Sardinian and Caucasus or Near Eastern related groups (Fig. 5, Supplementary Table S7). In addition, populations from the Apulia/West-Sicily seem to have experienced further mixtures involving Sardinia and Eastern-Europe. "

[Lavrentis]

I thought Trapani had the least Greek input in whole Sicily, seems I’m wrong. People from Trapani really cluster with Greek mainlanders?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sikeliot]

I thought Trapani had the least Greek input in whole Sicily, seems I’m wrong. People from Trapani really cluster with Greek mainlanders?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not exactly with Greek mainlanders, but they are north of most other Sicilians because of (according to the study) a recent Greek/Albanian genetic influence. They seem almost like the Central Greek or Abruzzo clusters, but with a North African influence. I also would not discount minor Norman influence but it is likely not the main reason for their northward shift.

Before genetic studies, people assumed Trapani would be the most Near Eastern of all the Sicilian provinces given that culturally you feel the strongest sense of North African/Arabian influence there (food, architecture, textiles, etc); this is not true genetically. As it turns out, Trapani does have a more significant cultural influence from MENAs, but it was one of the last regions to completely lose their Greek speech.

If you wanted to find regions with less Greek input you'd likely find it in the mountainous areas on the north coast where Greeks had less of a presence (western Messina/eastern Palermo).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I thought Trapani had the least Greek input in whole Sicily, seems I’m wrong. People from Trapani really cluster with Greek mainlanders?

Ignore him, he's just spreading bullshit on Sicily and southern Italy as usually does.

[Sikeliot]

Ignore him, he's just spreading bullshit on Sicily and southern Italy as usually does.

Then can you ever provide an explanation for anything rather than getting hostile? You don't ever actually provide theories or anything constructive.

The study says exactly what I just said it did, and you also deny Norman input explaining why the people in Trapani shift north. So what is the reason, then?

[Kouros]

Probably Abereshe + Byzantine influence if what you say is true

[Sikeliot]

Probably Abereshe + Byzantine influence if what you say is true

This is my guess, as well.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Then can you ever provide an explanation for anything rather than getting hostile? You don't ever actually provide theories or anything constructive.

The study says exactly what I just said it did, and you also deny Norman input explaining why the people in Trapani shift north. So what is the reason, then?

Neither do you ever provide anything constructive, just make nonsense speculation. I've already talked about Trapani but you've always remained for your ideas.
1. there has never been any massive migration of Albanians or Greeks in the Lucanian hinterland as there has never been in Trapani.
2. in Calabria there are the largest historical Albanian communities: are Calabrians northern shifted? They aren't. Then I don't see why the Albanians should have had such a big influence in Trapani (where they have never been).
3. the Greeks plot east of Lazio and Albanians east of Tuscany, so not exactly in the northern Italian or Lombard cluster.
4. I can understand the Balkan affinity of Apulians and Lucanians, since the Iapigyans probably came from Illyria.
5. finally, the Trapanese differ from the rest of Sicilians only for the minor Caucasian component and the major Atlantic that pulls them towards Sardinia: not towards France, northern Italy, Greece or Albania but towards Sardinia. They are natively like that. Trapani may be related to Beaker that was introduced in Sicily from Sardinia and spread mainly in the north-western and south-western part of the island, in the north-western area and in the province of Palermo it maintained almost complete its cultural and social characteristics, while in the south-western part it was decidedly integrated with the local cultures.

[Sikeliot]

Neither do you ever provide anything constructive, just make nonsense speculation. I've already talked about Trapani but you've always remained for your ideas.
1. there has never been any massive migration of Albanians or Greeks in the Lucanian hinterland as there has never been in Trapani.
2. in Calabria there are the largest historical Albanian communities: are Calabrians northern shifted? They aren't. Then I don't see why the Albanians should have had such a big influence in Trapani (where they have never been).
3. the Greeks plot east of Lazio and Albanians east of Tuscany, so not exactly in the northern Italian or Lombard cluster.
4. I can understand the Balkan affinity of Apulians and Lucanians, since the Iapigyans probably came from Illyria.
5. finally, the Trapanese differ from the rest of Sicilians only for the minor Caucasian component and the major Atlantic that pulls them towards Sardinia: not towards France, northern Italy, Greece or Albania but towards Sardinia. They are natively like that. Trapani may be related to Beaker that was introduced in Sicily from Sardinia and spread mainly in the north-western and south-western part of the island, in the north-western area and in the province of Palermo it maintained almost complete its cultural and social characteristics, while in the south-western part it was decidedly integrated with the local cultures.


I will answer these in sequence:

1. Lucania is right next to Apulia, which did receive significant Greek settlement and today has the largest remaining Greek-speaking community in Italy. Do you really think people never moved around?

2. The Albanian communities in Calabria likely remained isolated and did not mix with the mainstream part of the population. Moreover, there is no evidence of recent IBD sharing with Greece/Albania in Calabria either, Calabrese are fairly 'pure' and unmixed. But the study above does say that Apulia, Basilicata, and Trapani show elevated Sardinian AND East European affinity compared to the Calabrese or to the other Sicilian provinces sampled; how did it get there? And how do you explain the higher IBD sharing with Greece and Albania that is mentioned? Clearly, there was some migration at some point to explain this. The higher East European affinity cannot be explained by just higher Sardinian-like ancestry since they have almost no Steppe themselves.

3. It said that the Greek/Albanian cluster is more related to North Italians than to the Calabria-Sicily cluster, not that they directly plotted with North Italians. I think this was referring to IBD sharing, as there was no evidence in Calabria, Calabrese Greeks, Catania, Palermo, Ragusa, Enna, or Agrigento of Greek and Albanian IBD sharing suggesting any recent admixture between them.

4. Ok, so we can agree then that the similarity to "Greeks" in Lucania and non-Greek settled parts of Apulia may not be directly from Greece but from Illyrians, who would have been similar to Greeks to begin with. I can agree with this but I would not discount the movement of people from place to place. Also, the coast of Lucania did have Greek settlement.

5. I have seen Trapanese results shifting toward Greece, toward North/Central Italy and toward Spain but none just toward Sardinia. Either way, they always shift north in SOME way.