Can an I1 man be a real Albanian?

[Bobby Martnen]

Would Albanians ever accept an I1 as one of their own, or is I1 too Germanic?

[Ülev]

of course, if I remember Dralos (inactive member) was I1
(Faleminderit për kontributin tuaj)

[Sokoli]

Would Albanians ever accept an I1 as one of their own, or is I1 too Germanic?

Haplogroups don't really relate with ethnicites.
An ethnicity is defined as:
ɛθˈnɪsɪti
noun
the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

So an ethnicity is a category, like wood, or steel, etc. If you find an object and recognize in it a certain set of properties, like, it is light, it can float in water, it can be split with an ax, it burns in fire, nails can be nailed in it, etc, you say "this is wood", in other words, this object is an instantiation of the wood concept, or class.

The usefulness of associating instances with categories is that, once you figure out what category belongs a certain instance, then you can expect from that instance to behave as described by the properties associated with the category it belongs to.

There is a set of properties associated with the Albanian category too, that has been stable through all the time.
For example, between "each for himself and God for all" vs. "one for all and all for one", Albanians are very much "one for all and all for one" culture. And a very atheist one as well.

[Ayman Vasconic]

Nope, as he is not true Indo-European. Can be albanic (as can be slavic, romanic, celtic, sinic, japanic or whatever) but never the a Albanian = real Indo-European Albanian.

[Norb]

Nope, as he is not true Indo-European. Can be albanic (as can be slavic, romanic, celtic, sinic, japanic or whatever) but never the a Albanian = real Indo-European Albanian.

ask Bobby what his HG is!

[Wrong]

Nope, as he is not true Indo-European. Can be albanic (as can be slavic, romanic, celtic, sinic, japanic or whatever) but never the a Albanian = real Indo-European Albanian.
I agree with you, swarthy Oldeuropean remnant.

[Ayman Vasconic]

swarthy Oldeuropean remnant.

I used to think, that I-people originaly were swarthy, but the newest discoveries proved, that I-people as WHGans were rather brownish/blackish than swarthy. Swarthy were immigrants from the Middle East like G2, J2, E1b, T1, and similar, and some small migrations from northern Africa.

[Bobby Martnen]

I used to think, that I-people originaly were swarthy, but the newest discoveries proved, that I-people as WHGans were rather brownish/blackish than swarthy. Swarthy were immigrants from the Middle East like G2, J2, E1b, T1, and similar, and some small migrations from northern Africa.

Rethel?

[MercifulServant]

I used to think, that I-people originaly were swarthy, but the newest discoveries proved, that I-people as WHGans were rather brownish/blackish than swarthy. Swarthy were immigrants from the Middle East like G2, J2, E1b, T1, and similar, and some small migrations from northern Africa.

False, Neolithic farmers were light skinned

[Kelmendasi]

I used to think, that I-people originaly were swarthy, but the newest discoveries proved, that I-people as WHGans were rather brownish/blackish than swarthy. Swarthy were immigrants from the Middle East like G2, J2, E1b, T1, and similar, and some small migrations from northern Africa.
I really doubt that WHG were blackish in colour, I think they were probably brown or dark brown at most. The whole black skin thing was used as a political tool as well so it isn't that accurate, iirc the SNPs show that they had darker skin when compared to farmers which doesn't mean black so it was kinda wrong for them to portray it as black. There was variation in the Hunter-gatherers as well, the ones in Scandinavia had SNPs that are linked to light skin and hair and the EHG had lighter features as well. I think WHG looked more like this:

http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge/image_1722e-Hunter-gatherer.jpg

[Ayman Vasconic]

False, Neolithic farmers were light skinned

Nope, as the same people living today are not. Swarthy is light from the point of view of a black skinned person, but it doesn;t mean, that is light indeed. They where white comparing to I-people, but they where not white comparing to East Europeans at their time, and also do not fit to modern typical white person. They were just as modrn sothern europeans, Anatolians, or Levantinians are. caucasoid but swarthy.


I really doubt that WHG were blackish in colour, I think they were probably brown or dark brown at most.

So blackish. For white people all browness is blackness.


The whole black skin thing was used as a political tool as well so it isn't that accurate, iirc the SNPs show that they had darker skin when compared to farmers which doesn't mean black so it was kinda wrong for them to portray it as black. There was variation in the Hunter-gatherers as well, the ones in Scandinavia had SNPs that are linked to light skin and hair and the EHG had lighter features as well. I think WHG looked more like this:

Individuals with light eyes could be mixed as well with easteners, as blueeyeness doesn;t fit normally to dark (whatever tone you choose) skin. There are traces sugesting, that Eastern Europeans did ocasiannaly enter into WHG peopled Europe, and WHG itself was by some genetists consider as EHG+something, so it is very probable, that original I-people where even more dark, and light features are a result of EHG input. The question only is, was it local or global. In some individuals or groups could it resulted as kind of swarthy-browny colour, among others the deep browness could remain - even with added light features like eyes. Even if we would assumed, that blackness is too far, then anyway, WHG people where not white as many whish. typical swarthiness is the lightest imaginable colour for I-people, but as it is known allready, that they were darker than G2-people, then it is obvious, that they had to be at least light brown (as some Berber tribes for example), but probably were more.

[Bosniensis]

Albanians do not "accept" people.

Albanians are not Americans... they are genuine group of people who share the same BLOOD!

You either ARE or you are NOT.

They are the only sane people in UNIVERSE who actually divide themselves in clans, tribes... as every normal nation should.

They are the most advanced nation on Earth as far as ethnicity is concerned.

Western Balkans is divided on religious concept while ALL ALBANIANS are united with 3 religions.

[nightrider+]

I really doubt that WHG were blackish in colour, I think they were probably brown or dark brown at most. The whole black skin thing was used as a political tool as well so it isn't that accurate, iirc the SNPs show that they had darker skin when compared to farmers which doesn't mean black so it was kinda wrong for them to portray it as black. There was variation in the Hunter-gatherers as well, the ones in Scandinavia had SNPs that are linked to light skin and hair and the EHG had lighter features as well. I think WHG looked more like this:

http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge/image_1722e-Hunter-gatherer.jpg

This drawing always seemed like bs to me. Very modern-like. WHG were very low on genes responsible for light skin, though not completely devoid of them, so they were most likely very dark brown. SHG were considerably lighter apparently.

https://i.imgur.com/nnoMYsK.jpg


False, Neolithic farmers were light skinned

Darker than any modern Europeans.

[Kelmendasi]

Nope, as the same people living today are not. Swarthy is light from the point of view of a black skinned person, but it doesn;t mean, that is light indeed. They where white comparing to I-people, but they where not white comparing to East Europeans at their time, and also do not fit to modern typical white person. They were just as modrn sothern europeans, Anatolians, or Levantinians are. caucasoid but swarthy.



So blackish. For white people all browness is blackness.



Individuals with light eyes could be mixed as well with easteners, as blueeyeness doesn;t fit normally to dark (whatever tone you choose) skin. There are traces sugesting, that Eastern Europeans did ocasiannaly enter into WHG peopled Europe, and WHG itself was by some genetists consider as EHG+something, so it is very probable, that original I-people where even more dark, and light features are a result of EHG input. The question only is, was it local or global. In some individuals or groups could it resulted as kind of swarthy-browny colour, among others the deep browness could remain - even with added light features like eyes. Even if we would assumed, that blackness is too far, then anyway, WHG people where not white as many whish. typical swarthiness is the lightest imaginable colour for I-people, but as it is known allready, that they were darker than G2-people, then it is obvious, that they had to be at least light brown (as some Berber tribes for example), but probably were more.
WHG weren't modeled as EHG + Something, it's the other way round, EHG is modeled as WHG + ANE. And it is the SHG that had EHG input.

[Kelmendasi]

This drawing always seemed like bs to me. Very modern-like. WHG were very low on genes responsible for light skin, though not completely devoid of them, so they were most likely very dark brown. SHG were considerably lighter apparently.

https://i.imgur.com/nnoMYsK.jpg



Darker than any modern Europeans.
I would say that they were brown or dark brown as well, SHG were light skinned and had SNPs for blond hair and blue eyes. The EHG also had lighter skin, possibly due to ANE input.

[safinator]

I am curious what subclade is the I1 in Albanians.

[Wrong]

I am curious what subclade is the I1 in Albanians.
I have no idea about the numbers, though there is a Norman-specific clade along with a Gothic one.

[Ayman Vasconic]

SHG were light skinned and had SNPs for blond hair and blue eyes.

SHG was a mix with heavy input of EHG.

[Ayman Vasconic]

WHG weren't modeled as EHG + Something, it's the other way round, EHG is modeled as WHG + ANE.

Yes, but it can be other way as well. Just ask some genetist in Internet.


And it is the SHG that had EHG input.

Yes, but taing unto account WHG. All depends who they are defined. If WHG = X+EHG, then SHG = (X+EHG)+EHG just as half mulatto = (Negro+white)+white.

[Kelmendasi]

SHG was a mix with heavy input of EHG.
Yh which is probably why they had lighter skin and hair, although they were still around 60% WHG.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, but it can be other way as well. Just ask some genetist in Internet.



Yes, but taing unto account WHG. All depends who they are defined. If WHG = X+EHG, then SHG = (X+EHG)+EHG just as half mulatto = (Negro+white)+white.
There is a high chance that EHG itself was just a distinct group of hunter-gatherers that were related to both the ANE and WHG and not a mix of the two. We need more samples to know the truth though.

[Kelmendasi]

I am curious what subclade is the I1 in Albanians.
According the the Albanian bloodlines project, majority is under I1>Z63 which indicates possible Gothic origin likely to have been spread by Ostrogoths whilst the other clades are I1>P109 which is of Norman origin and I1>Z58 which is known as a western Germanic haplogroup so i'm uncertain if it's Gothic as they were east Germanic.

[Ayman Vasconic]

There is a high chance that EHG itself was just a distinct group of hunter-gatherers that were related to both the ANE and WHG and not a mix of the two. We need more samples to know the truth though.

Becasue probably wasn't. ANE = American Indian + EHG. If it would be other way, whites would not exist, or the Indians would have original high ehg component, especially, that ANE have majority of ehg and only smal percentage of the amerindian autosomal genes. In WHG this light eyes do not fit, so probably it could be a mix too - especially, that can be defined as I said. It all depends on what sample was check first. If the first guy would be a mulatto from before thousands of years, he would be called the pattern to which other population would be comapre.

[Ayman Vasconic]

WHG-people are taking back the Isles :)
Even she, being a white-black mix does not have light eyes.
The more it is improbable in the original blackich WHG people.

https://media.wmagazine.com/photos/5aabc1cfac59b77a78db84b6/4:3/w_1536/meghan-markle-royal-wardrobe.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Becasue probably wasn't. ANE = American Indian + EHG. If it would be other way, whites would not exist, or the Indians would have original high ehg component, especially, that ANE have majority of ehg and only smal percentage of the amerindian autosomal genes. In WHG this light eyes do not fit, so probably it could be a mix too - especially, that can be defined as I said. It all depends on what sample was check first. If the first guy would be a mulatto from before thousands of years, he would be called the pattern to which other population would be comapre.
I highly doubt ANE has EHG admix within it. ANE seems to be a completely different thing from the other HG groups and seems to have arrived into west Eurasia when R1 carriers migrated to the steppes.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JfsaZ0Arig0/VIwqnsNURuI/AAAAAAAABzA/XqR_3Y4l3y0/s400/2kjz7p.jpg

[MercifulServant]

Darker than any modern Europeans.

Wrong, They would have had a simaler skin tone to modern day southern euros