Which country has the highest Mediterranean admixture?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

We're not being able to reach a consensus on what defines who is the most Mediterranean nation in Europe. There is a thread based on phenotypes, this one shall be based on genetics.


So which nation has the most Mediterranean admixture?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

https://s31.postimg.cc/qbs00hhmj/med_admixture.png

Eurogenes K15 Averages

[Wrong]

Based on Eurogenes

East Med has a CHG component to it, aside from its Med. All while North Atlantic has a WHG component, aside from its Med.

[nightrider+]

Define Mediterranean admixture.

[Bosniensis]

Is there a reason why Turkey is not listed?

Because Anatolians are Med. the most.

[Wrong]

Is there a reason why Turkey is not listed?

Because Anatolians are Med. the most.
They're not, atleast not since the Early Neolithic. They got invaded by CHG-folks and mixed with them later, followed by IE movements + South Asian-influenced Iranians and then Turkics.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Is there a reason why Turkey is not listed?

Because Anatolians are Med. the most.

Turkey wasn't listed on the other thread so I was trying to keep coherence and decided to choose the same nations.

[Voskos]

Is there a reason why Turkey is not listed?

Because Anatolians are Med. the most.

you are more med than anatolians. anatolians are west asian+iranic.

[Voskos]

I vote for Bosnia.

[Zuh]

Portugal.

[Aren]

We're not being able to reach a consensus on what defines who is the most Mediterranean nation in Europe. There is a thread based on phenotypes, this one shall be based on genetics.


So which nation has the most Mediterranean admixture?

Depends on what you mean as Med admix? If we are to include Levantine input(Levant_N-like DNA) + Anatolia_N then Levatines are by far the most Med, but strictly just Anatolian farmer then Sardinians > Iberians/North-Central Italians > Mainland Greeks

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Define Mediterranean admixture.

You and everybody else is open to explain what they define as Mediterranean. This is a debate. From what I understood on the other thread you think that Early European Farmer admixture is what defines it.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png

[Livin]

Spain and Italy because gracile med is the original med type.

East med is not med but more middle east closer to arabid and orientalid.
Pontid and North Pontid have alpine,baltic and gorid traits.
Atlantomed can be but he is too robust cause of the cromanoid influence...!!

Altantid and north atlantid are not pure meds for me.

So Spain and Italy and ofc Argentina.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Spain and Italy because gracile med is the original med type.

East med is not med but more middle east closer to arabid and orientalid.
Pontid and North Pontid have alpine,baltic and gorid traits.
Atlantomed can be but he is too robust cause of the cromanoid influence...!!

Altantid and north atlantid are not pure meds for me.

So Spain and Italy and ofc Argentina.

Stick to genetics, not phenotypes please.

[nightrider+]

You and everybody else is open to explain what they define as Mediterranean. This is a debate. From what I understood on the other thread you think that Early European Farmer admixture is what defines it.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png

No, I just said that Early Farmers and Mediterranean race were related. If you wanna go by that as genetically Mediterranean, you know my answer.

[Livin]

Stick to genetics, not phenotypes please.

I agree with nightrider about the farmers and the relation with meds.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/graph.png

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Bump.

[grecoroman]

italy!!! i am 62% med

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

italy!!! i am 62% med

Italy leading so far but on the Mediterranean phenotypes thread people seem to associate them overwhelmingly with Iberia.

Which is kinda odd because both things should be correlated to a certain extent.

[Damião de Góis]

Maybe measuring ENF on Eurogenes_ANE K7?


Early Neolithic Farmer (ENF): I'd say that this is the component of the earliest Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent.

http://bga101.blogspot.pt/2014/09/eurogenes-ane-k7.html


I can't find the spreadsheet for this.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Maybe measuring ENF on Eurogenes_ANE K7?



I can't find the spreadsheet for this.

He presents a link to this table though:

https://s9.postimg.cc/43linfscv/Opera_Instant_neo_2018-05-08_222428_drive.google.com.png


According to it, Sardinia has the highest EEF mean followed by (in this specific order) Greece, Albania, Spain, Tuscany, Bergamo, Bulgaria, Southern France and Northern Spain.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

And out of curiosity, I score ENF 34.05% on ANE 7.

My highest score is WHG-UHG 51.36% on ANE 7.

[Aren]

Maybe measuring ENF on Eurogenes_ANE K7?



I can't find the spreadsheet for this.
This is before the discovery of CHG(teal as it was called back then). Which is seen in his examples, like the Lezgin guy is supposedly 55% Early European Farmer which we know today isn't accurate.

[Damião de Góis]

This is before the discovery of CHG(teal as it was called back then). Which is seen in his examples, like the Lezgin guy is supposedly 55% Early European Farmer which we know today isn't accurate.

Is there any run with both of them? I see k8 doesn't have it.

[Aren]

Is there any run with both of them? I see k8 doesn't have it.

Try puntDNAL K12 Modern

[Damião de Góis]

Try puntDNAL K12 Modern

Ok i score 40ish% EFN there and it's my top result, but i must say i don't trust non Dodecad or Eurogenes calculators. The oracle doesn't seem right as usual (bergamo before spain, belgium before france_south, etc).

[Sikeliot]

Italy, because even if it does not show phenotypically in parts of the country, southern Italy is heavily Mediterranean (and eastern Mediterranean at that) with very low Indo-European input. They also have Sardinia, too.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Why is it then that people think that Iberians have more Mediterranean phenotypes, yet Italy is the one with most Mediterranean admixture? Shouldn't both things be correlated? We can say that one can have an atypical phenotype based on randomly selected genes that make up nothing out of the entire genome but on a global average scale if a population has more Mediterranean admixture, shouldn't it be producing more Mediterranean phenotypes?

[Sikeliot]

Why is it then that people think that Iberians have more Mediterranean phenotypes, yet Italy is the one with most Mediterranean admixture? Shouldn't both things be correlated? We can say that one can have an atypical phenotype based on randomly selected genes that make up nothing out of the entire genome but on a global average scale if a population has more Mediterranean admixture, shouldn't it be producing more Mediterranean phenotypes?

Because North Italians do not look Mediterranean and people would say Iberia looks more homogenously such.

Greece probably has more Mediterranean admixture than Iberia but they also have some Steppe (both Indo European and Slavic) and Balkan types that do not always look Mediterranean.

[Cristiano viejo]

Because North Italians do not look Mediterranean and people would say Iberia looks more homogenously such.



That is what your fantasy mind believes.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That is what your fantasy mind believes.

Lmao, according to TA bro-science logic: lighter Iberian type like Pique = textbook Mediterranean. Lighter Italian type = Non-Med looking Germanic warrior.

[Damião de Góis]

Why is it then that people think that Iberians have more Mediterranean phenotypes, yet Italy is the one with most Mediterranean admixture? Shouldn't both things be correlated? We can say that one can have an atypical phenotype based on randomly selected genes that make up nothing out of the entire genome but on a global average scale if a population has more Mediterranean admixture, shouldn't it be producing more Mediterranean phenotypes?

Mainly because 30s anthropology is pseudo science. People classify based on their own stereotypes.
I usually post people very different from each other to see the replies and 90% of times it's "atlanto med" or "gracile med" for everyone no matter how people look like :laugh:

Like for example:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228101-Main-types-among-portuguese-racing-drivers&highlight=racing+drivers
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220863-Main-types-among-portuguese-chefs&highlight=portuguese+chefs

[Cristiano viejo]

Lmao, according to TA bro-science logic: lighter Iberian type like Pique = textbook Mediterranean. Lighter Italian type = Non-Med looking Germanic warrior.

Was that typical Greek IQ who claimed Piqué looked Mediterranean, was not him?
well, what else could I add... :rolleyes:

[Percivalle]

Why is it then that people think that Iberians have more Mediterranean phenotypes, yet Italy is the one with most Mediterranean admixture? Shouldn't both things be correlated? We can say that one can have an atypical phenotype based on randomly selected genes that make up nothing out of the entire genome but on a global average scale if a population has more Mediterranean admixture, shouldn't it be producing more Mediterranean phenotypes?


I couldn't give a fuck about who is more Mediterranean, but It doesn't work like you believe. Apart from that none of the calculators you're using in this forum is really focused on a true mediterranean component. And what is exactly a mediterranean component? Otzi who is believed to be a EEF farmer was an Alpine phenotypically. And then the phenotypes do not work that automatically. Population genetics use the whole genome while the phenotypes are regulated by a few genes that are also subject to sexual selection.

[Aren]

Ok i score 40ish% EFN there and it's my top result, but i must say i don't trust non Dodecad or Eurogenes calculators. The oracle doesn't seem right as usual (bergamo before spain, belgium before france_south, etc).

The sampling seems suspicious and the calc itself seems to have some issues but this is the only Gedmatch calc so far that can predict ENF and CHG/Iran_N somewhat accurately. And also I think the south French sample is actually from SW France and very Basque shifted so that might be the reason.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I couldn't give a fuck about who is more Mediterranean, but It doesn't work like you believe. Apart from that none of the calculators you're using in this forum is really focused on a fully complete mediterranean component. And then the phenotypes do not work that automatically. Population genetics use the whole genome while the phenotypes are regulated by a few genes that are also subject to sexual selection.

Do you suggest then that despite genetics having as everything else a error margin, that they aren't still more reliable than outdated anthropological studies on who is Mediterranean or not?

[nightrider+]

Was that typical Greek IQ who claimed Piqué looked Mediterranean, was not him?
well, what else could I add... :rolleyes:

The interesting part is Pique, a dark brown haired individual, being considered unusually light in Iberia. :icon_lol:

[Percivalle]

Do you suggest then that despite genetics having as everything else a error margin, that they aren't still more reliable than outdated anthropological studies on who is Mediterranean or not?

I'm suggesting that genetics doesn't reveal who is more Mediterranean phenotypically among southern European etnicities, surely not in this way.

What's your phenotype?

[Cristiano viejo]

The interesting part is Pique, a dark brown haired individual, being considered unusually light in Iberia. :icon_lol:

Piqué dark brown haired, hahahahah

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

What's your phenotype?

I don't know but in a broad sense I obviously fit among the Mediterranean spectrum. Check my profile if you want to see.

My phenotype doesn't prove anything though. People here are implying that Dinarics and Alpines are not under the Mediterranean spectrum as well apparently for some reason.

[nightrider+]

I couldn't give a fuck about who is more Mediterranean, but It doesn't work like you believe. Apart from that none of the calculators you're using in this forum is really focused on a true mediterranean component. And what is exactly a mediterranean component? Otzi who is believed to be a EEF farmer was an Alpine phenotypically. And then the phenotypes do not work that automatically. Population genetics use the whole genome while the phenotypes are regulated by a few genes that are also subject to sexual selection.

Lool, Otzi's cephalic index was 75, how could he be an alpine? He was Mediterranean. He is being reconstructed with projecting cheekbones from being starved.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Piqué dark brown haired, hahahahah

Too swarthy for Greek standards and probably not enough Western looking despite being most likely able to pass in any place of north-western Europe.

[Percivalle]

I don't know but in a broad sense I obviously fit among the Mediterranean spectrum. Check my profile if you want to see.

My phenotype doesn't prove anything though. People here are implying that Dinarics and Alpines are not under the Mediterranean spectrum as well apparently for some reason.

Dinarics and Alpines are not Mediterranean in a strict sense. That's likely true. Of course Dinarics and Alpines are part of a southern European spectrum.

That said I do not care who is more Mediterranean, it seems that it has become an offense to be Mediterranean.

[Leto]

Italy and Greece have a shitload of East Med admixture, so I'll go for Italy.

[Cristiano viejo]

Too swarthy for Greek standards and probably not enough Western looking despite being most likely able to pass in any place of north-western Europe.

Piqué would look like a polar bear among all these non-Mediterranean Greeks :p

http://img.fifa.com/mm/photo/world-match-centre/nationalteams/02/58/01/69/2580169_full-lnd.jpg

[Livin]

Piqué would look like a polar bear among all these non-Mediterranean Greeks :p

http://img.fifa.com/mm/photo/world-match-centre/nationalteams/02/58/01/69/2580169_full-lnd.jpg

Karnezis and Samaris are pure meds...

[Leto]

The interesting part is Pique, a dark brown haired individual, being considered unusually light in Iberia. :icon_lol:
He has light eyes and his wife Shakira thanks him everyday for diluting her Lebanese Latino blood :lol: She has a good amount of Spanish ancestry herself though
https://i0.wp.com/www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/shakira-christmas.jpg?crop=0px%2C54px%2C1800px%2C946px&resize=1200%2C630&ssl=1

[Livin]

Italy and Greece have a shitload of East Med admixture, so I'll go for Italy.

Well east med is not really a clear med type.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Dinarics and Alpines are not Mediterranean in a strict sense. That's likely true. Of course Dinarics and Alpines are part of a southern European spectrum.

That said I do not care who is more Mediterranean, it seems that it has become an offense to be Mediterranean.

It is not offensive to be Mediterranean. We are just debating.

[Aren]

I don't know but in a broad sense I obviously fit among the Mediterranean spectrum. Check my profile if you want to see.

My phenotype doesn't prove anything though. People here are implying that Dinarics and Alpines are not under the Mediterranean spectrum as well apparently for some reason.

Most of modern day phenotypes probably emerged during the late Bronze Age. Take the Nordid type as an example. Neither the Yamnaya, WHG/EHG nor the European farmers looked to be having Nordid-like people in significant numbers yet today it's a rather frequent type in Scandinavia and Northern Europe in general. I've read somewhere that the Alpine type was rare until the middle ages.

[nightrider+]

Karnezis and Samaris are pure meds...

Karnezis is brachycephalic. The most clearly Med individuals in this photo are Manolas (an islander) and Kone (8, an Albanian). :icon_lol: Four are Pontic Greeks though.

[Livin]

Karnezis is brachycephalic. The most clearly Med individuals in this photo are Manolas (an islander) and Kone (8, an Albanian). :icon_lol: Four are Pontic Greeks though.

I agree with Manolas i didnt see him.
But karnezis brachycephalic??? So you say he is dinaric?
i think he is a good example of atlantomed.

His head looks very dochilo...

[nightrider+]

His head looks very dochilo...

Erm, no, not dolicho at all.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/8d/fe/f98dfe9be6bd8d22433361bdadcfd55d.jpg

Athanasiadis is also a Med type, I guess. Samaris too.

[Livin]

Erm, no, not dolicho at all.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/8d/fe/f98dfe9be6bd8d22433361bdadcfd55d.jpg

Athanasiadis is also a Med type, I guess. Samaris too.

So you classify him as dinaric right?

Athanasiadis eyes looks armenoid to me....but the rest of his face looks very med yes!!!

[nightrider+]

So you classify him as dinaric right?

Athanasiadis eyes looks armenoid to me....but the rest of his face looks very med yes!!!

He has dinaric influence. Athanasiadis is not Armenoid but he has Middle Eastern influence definitely.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Erm, no, not dolicho at all.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f9/8d/fe/f98dfe9be6bd8d22433361bdadcfd55d.jpg

Athanasiadis is also a Med type, I guess. Samaris too.

You put a Pique profile photo next to this guy and there's barely any difference skullwise. One is Med according to you and the other isn't. Gotta love the ambiguity and vagueness of bro-science.

[Percivalle]

It is not offensive to be Mediterranean. We are just debating.

Yes I know. And I reapet it is not a calculator that can solve the issue. Also because what is really a Mediterranean component? If I change the calculator, the results of these hypothetical Mediterranean components also change. These are for example the results of Harappa and its Mediterranean component (there are no Greeks and Portuguese but we can imagine how they are).

https://i.imgur.com/qWfYcCn.png

[nightrider+]

You put a Pique profile photo next to this guy and there's barely any difference skullwise. One is Med according to you and the other isn't. Gotta love the ambiguity and vagueness of bro-science.

Yeah, there is. Clearly more protruding occiput and also less globular head shape from the front. He is also more leptoprosopic and has a completely straight nose.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ku6yxiDh48/maxresdefault.jpg

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Yes I know. And I reapet it is not a calculator that can solve the issue. Also because what is really a Mediterranean component? If I change the calculator, the results of these hypothetical Mediterranean components also change. These are for example the results of Harappa and its Mediterranean component (there are no Greeks and Portuguese but we can imagine how they are).

https://i.imgur.com/qWfYcCn.png

All calculators have a error margin. Best way to draw a conclusion would be to run all and measure the averages. Greeks being modeled as less than 30% Mediterranean would have to mean that they had been almost completely genetically replaced if we were to compare the with samples from the Hellenic period.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Yeah, there is. Clearly more protruding occiput and also less globular head shape from the front. He is also more leptoprosopic and has a completely straight nose.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ku6yxiDh48/maxresdefault.jpg

Lmao, I was comparing the skulls not noses. "More protruding occiput", 2 cm difference and most likely just a different shaped haircut giving that illusion. Measuring skulls through jpegs, bro-science strikes again.

[Percivalle]

All calculators have a error margin. Best way to draw a conclusion would be to run all and measure the averages. Greeks being modeled as less than 30% Mediterranean would have to mean that they had been almost completely genetically replaced if we were to compare the with samples from the Hellenic period.

The truth is that you can not connect in the way you do the genetics, the components of amateur calculators that use all different reference samples, and the phenotypes.

[Petalpusher]

You ll find different answers depending on the calculator for the simple reason that you can define mediterranean in many ways. If there s a reasonable answer to this in the ancestral sense it would be basal eurasian, isolating WHG and ANE from all the so called "med" components.

Even then, the traditionally things seen as northern components come from the same source of original basal Eurasian, they just parted away at some point. Maybe ANE is a bit different, as in having more of the eastern basal element (ENA)

[nightrider+]

Lmao, I was comparing the skulls not noses. "More protruding occiput", 2 cm difference and most likely just a different shaped haircut giving that illusion. Measuring skulls through jpegs, bro-science strikes again.

I was trying to point out what makes Pique a better Med example than Karnezis. Lower CI, lower FI, straighter and narrower nose. 2 cm added to length and 2 subtracted from width turn someone from dolicho to brachy. Unfortunately I don't have them in my room so I can measure them but some things are too obvious.

[FilhoV]

https://s31.postimg.cc/qbs00hhmj/med_admixture.png

Eurogenes K15 Averages

Interesting my friend

My West Mediterranean is 28% and east Mediterranean is 16%

[FilhoV]

Lmao, I was comparing the skulls not noses. "More protruding occiput", 2 cm difference and most likely just a different shaped haircut giving that illusion. Measuring skulls through jpegs, bro-science strikes again.

Could be worse he could be using .gif

[Petalpusher]

This is before the discovery of CHG(teal as it was called back then). Which is seen in his examples, like the Lezgin guy is supposedly 55% Early European Farmer which we know today isn't accurate.

There s also that if you make a table with west and east med, you are forgetting a lot of what some other calculators could lump into some kind of "med" or "southern" components, all the basal stuff of Red_Sea and West Asia. West_Asian is highly basal as well, even CHG is more than any Euro neolithic or early farmers. East_Med and Red_Sea should be closer in basalness to Natufian and Levant/Iran_N so adding all this together as one is adding oranges and apples. This is what even studies 5 years ago were doing, hopefully no more since the recent explosion of ancient samples.

https://tof.cx/images/2018/05/09/ad9cc3a67c04858eb615bda00cf14fa8.png

[Aren]

You ll find different answers depending on the calculator for the simple reason that you can define mediterranean in many ways. If there s a reasonable answer to this in the ancestral sense it would be basal eurasian, isolating WHG and ANE from all the so called "med" components.

Even then, the traditionally things seen as northern components come from the same source of original basal Eurasian, they just parted away at some point. Maybe ANE is a bit different, as in having more of the eastern basal element (ENA)
ENA parted from the first OOA source and not from Basal right?

[Petalpusher]

ENA parted from the first OOA source and not from Basal right?

It's the general concensus yes, first OOA goes East Eurasia. There s likely an even older one at least leading to archaics Eurasians, Neanderthal, Denisovan,.. but we could keep going back and forth for more probably.

[Iloko]

https://i.imgur.com/pCyAHKG.png

[Septentrion]

We're not being able to reach a consensus on what defines who is the most Mediterranean nation in Europe. There is a thread based on phenotypes, this one shall be based on genetics.


So which nation has the most Mediterranean admixture?

As a country, it is Greece!

[Odin]

Greece.