Montenegro throughout history

[Morlak]

Principalities of Duklja and Travunija 7th-11th century
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LwbsaSWQ1So/WMgJxu314EI/AAAAAAAANOo/l1raMgsyiMAERauEyf4fFanz1b-V79VugCEw/s1600/Dalmatian_principalities%252C_9th_century.png


Principality of Duklja 11th century
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Principality_Duklja_%28Doclea%29_half_XI_century.s vg/1920px-Principality_Duklja_%28Doclea%29_half_XI_century.s vg.png


Kingdom of Duklja at its greatest power
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Srbsko_XI_sr.svg/2000px-Srbsko_XI_sr.svg.png


Principality of Zeta under Balšić family 1360-1421
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/THE_STATE_OF_BALSIC.png


Principality of Zeta under Crnojević family 1451-1498
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Map_of_Zeta_under_Ivan_Crnojevi%C4%87.jpg/800px-Map_of_Zeta_under_Ivan_Crnojevi%C4%87.jpg


Prince-Bishopric of Montenegro 1692-1852
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/1830_Montenegro.png/200px-1830_Montenegro.png


Principality of Montenegro 1852-1878
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/1859_Montenegro.png


Principality of Montenegro 1878-1910
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Princedom_of_Montenegro_after_1878.png/800px-Princedom_of_Montenegro_after_1878.png


Kingdom of Montenegro 1910-1918
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Montenegro1913.png


Zeta Banate 1929-1941( part of Yugoslavia)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Zetska_banovina01.png


Italian government of Montenegro 1941-1943
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/GovernateOfMontenegro.png/1024px-GovernateOfMontenegro.png


Modernday Montenegro 1945-present day
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/montenegro-political-map-capital-podgorica-national-borders-important-cities-rivers-lakes-english-labeling-scaling-59663752.jpg

[Morlak]

Expansion of Montenegro
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Montenegro_territory_expanded_%281830-1944%29.png/770px-Montenegro_territory_expanded_%281830-1944%29.png

[Morlak]

Forgot to put Montenegro from 1913 with Northern Albania in it.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Serbia_montenegro_albania1913_01.png

[Doclean]

Its clear here that Montenegrins have been independent for most of our history, people who question Montenegrin independence are dumb.

[ChocolateFace]

lol what are these fake maps? Anyone can create maps like this.

Truth is the earliest records of Montenegro indicate that it consisted of like 2-3 small mountain areas at best. Montenegro was able to stretch her land with the help of the great powers of Europe.

[Morlak]

lol what are these fake maps? Anyone can create maps like this.

Truth is the earliest records of Montenegro indicate that it consisted of like 2-3 small mountain areas at best. Montenegro was able to stretch her land with the help of the great powers of Europe.

Montenegro is considered as successor of both Duklja and Zeta wich were medieval states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duklja
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Zeta

[Megadorian]

Can you provide an accurate map of the major clans?

[Bosniensis]

I am proud of my Montenegrin roots.

Vrbice, Milićevići are apparently related to me through YDNA markers

It's the best Ex-Yu country.

[Peterski]

Forgot to put Montenegro from 1913 with Northern Albania in it.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Serbia_montenegro_albania1913_01.png

Albania was so small in 1913?! :lmao :eek2:

[Morlak]

Can you provide an accurate map of the major clans?

Its really hard to find completely accurate map, and the best one are in cyrillic but this one could pass i guess though there are flaws. Note that not all areas mentioned here were tribes especially northern part of the country such as Potarje and Pljevlja which are more like regions not tribes.
http://static.mondo.rs/Picture/703021/png/Plemena-u-Crnoj-Gori-Insta.png

[Morlak]

Albania was so small in 1913?! :lmao :eek2:

Yeah it was for a short period of time. Serbia had plans to incorporate most of Albania but this failed because of London Conference of 1912–13 and huge pressure from Austro-Hungary.

[Morlak]

I am proud of my Montenegrin roots.

Vrbice, Milićevići are apparently related to me through YDNA markers

It's the best Ex-Yu country.

Are you talking about Milićevići from eastern Herzegovina?

[Bosniensis]

Are you talking about Milićevići from eastern Herzegovina?

Yes, do you know anything about them?

[Morlak]

Yes, do you know anything about them?

According to them they descend from Mrnjavčevići one of the most powerful Serbian dynasty during Serbian empire.
You can find more information on their own site https://www.bratstvomilicevica.rs/

[Bosniensis]

According to them they descend from Mrnjavčevići one of the most powerful Serbian dynasty during Serbian empire.
You can find more information on their own site https://www.bratstvomilicevica.rs/

They are my close relatives, we have almost identical Markers, (according to ones tested by Serbian Project)

[Dick]

According to them they descend from Mrnjavčevići one of the most powerful Serbian dynasty during Serbian empire.
You can find more information on their own site https://www.bratstvomilicevica.rs/


Yes, do you know anything about them?

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:567985-Loza-Milicevica-opasala-svet

[Bosniensis]

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:567985-Loza-Milicevica-opasala-svet

They have locked Serbian DNK database, it's now pay to access.. do you have access?

I was about to post my results.

[ChocolateFace]

Montenegro is considered as successor of both Duklja and Zeta wich were medieval states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duklja
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Zeta

Responds by citing wikipedia:picard1:

Most of that history is made up and if you look into you can see that it was written by Serbs themselves. There are no primary sources backing any of this history. Do not blindly believe something just because others tell you about it. You have to question the validity.

For example the Balshaj family is 100% Albanian with origins from around the Shkoder region. They were an Albanian noble family which is why they were members of the league of Lezhe. Their name has origin in Albanian as well as their coat of Arms which is a Wolf. They chose a Wolf because their major City where they were headquartered was Ulqin which derives its name from the Albanian word for Wolf.

[Jackson78]

According to them they descend from Mrnjavčevići one of the most powerful Serbian dynasty during Serbian empire.
You can find more information on their own site https://www.bratstvomilicevica.rs/

Jednom rečju-glupost. Pravo poreklo im je po svemu sudeći od vlaha Predojevića iz okoline Bileće.

[Bosniensis]

Jednom rečju-glupost. Pravo poreklo im je po svemu sudeći od vlaha Predojevića iz okoline Bileće.

Sav Bihać je od Predojevića, imamo u centru grada Turbe posvećeno Hasan Paši Predojeviću, interesantno.

[Jackson78]

Sav Bihać je od Predojevića, imamo u centru grada Turbe posvećeno Hasan Paši Predojeviću, interesantno.

Za krajiške Predojeviće je ipak verovatnije da su R1a.

[Morlak]

Responds by citing wikipedia:picard1:

Most of that history is made up and if you look into you can see that it was written by Serbs themselves. There are no primary sources backing any of this history. Do not blindly believe something just because others tell you about it. You have to question the validity.

For example the Balshaj family is 100% Albanian with origins from around the Shkoder region. They were an Albanian noble family which is why they were members of the league of Lezhe. Their name has origin in Albanian as well as their coat of Arms which is a Wolf. They chose a Wolf because their major City where they were headquartered was Ulqin which derives its name from the Albanian word for Wolf.

Look its not my fault you are uniformed. First time i see someone denying existence of Duklja and Zeta lmao

You want primary sources? Sure go and read De Administrando Imperio written by Byzantine Emperor himself
http://www.jassa.org/?p=4918

As for the Balšić family their origin is uncertain as there is many theories. Only Albanian historians claim them as Albanians, even Robert Elsie one of biggest modernday albanophille historians says they are Serbian.
I find hard to believe that Albanians would name their children Stracimir,Jelisaveta,Vojislava,Gojko..

[ChocolateFace]

Look its not my fault you are uniformed. First time i see someone denying existence of Duklja and Zeta lmao

You want primary sources? Sure go and read De Administrando Imperio written by Byzantine Emperor himself
http://www.jassa.org/?p=4918

As for the Balšić family their origin is uncertain as there is many theories. Only Albanian historians claim them as Albanians, even Robert Elsie one of biggest modernday albanophille historians says they are Serbian.
I find hard to believe that Albanians would name their children Stracimir,Jelisaveta,Vojislava,Gojko..

Elsie claimed that he didn't know of their origin.

Most Albanians were Orthodox at the time and throughout history names were given based on religion. Same reason why some Muslim Albanians have non-traditional European names.

[Morlak]

Elsie claimed that he didn't know of their origin.

Most Albanians were Orthodox at the time and throughout history names were given based on religion. Same reason why some Muslim Albanians have non-traditional European names.

None of these names(Except Jelisaveta) have Christian origins, they are pure Serbian names coming from pagan times.

[ChocolateFace]

None of these names(Except Jelisaveta) have Christian origins, they are pure Serbian names coming from pagan times.

Eventually the names get integrated into the church and the origin becomes irrelevant. Back in the day religion and ethnicity were often intermingled which led to a lot of confusion.

[cosmoo]

The Prince-Bishopric spans from 1516, not from late 17th century.
Moreover, the territory shown on those maps shows only that which was under jurisdiction of Prince-Bishops of Cetinje, failing to take into the account that most of the other clans were also autonomous and self-governed.

An authentic Italian map from the beginning of 16th century:
https://www.editionsdanielderveaux.fr/WebRoot/Orange/Shops/30e1dd72-9483-11e3-9284-000d609a287c/533E/5891/933B/982E/6B91/0A0C/05E9/D48E/MB_Europe_1500.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Its really hard to find completely accurate map, and the best one are in cyrillic but this one could pass i guess though there are flaws. Note that not all areas mentioned here were tribes especially northern part of the country such as Potarje and Pljevlja which are more like regions not tribes.
[IM]http://static.mondo.rs/Picture/703021/png/Plemena-u-Crnoj-Gori-Insta.png[/IMG]
This one seems like a decent map although I agree that some of these "tribes" are more like regions than actual tribes. Hoti, Zatrijebac/Trieshi and a part of Kuqi are Albanian clans in Montenegro, also Gruda which is another Albanian clan in Montenegro but it isn't on the map, perhaps it's under Tuhi/Tuzi

[Morlak]

This one seems like a decent map although I agree that some of these "tribes" are more like regions than actual tribes. Hoti, Zatrijebac/Trieshi and a part of Kuqi are Albanian clans in Montenegro, also Gruda which is another Albanian clan in Montenegro but it isn't on the map, perhaps it's under Tuhi/Tuzi

Yeah, idk why it's wirtten Tuzi instead of Gruda. There is also some smaller Albanian clans in Montnegro such as Šestani located in Bar, though I think many of them are Slavophone today and they have many Serbian traditions such as Slava and cult of Saint Sava.

[Lek]

This one seems like a decent map although I agree that some of these "tribes" are more like regions than actual tribes. Hoti, Zatrijebac/Trieshi and a part of Kuqi are Albanian clans in Montenegro, also Gruda which is another Albanian clan in Montenegro but it isn't on the map, perhaps it's under Tuhi/Tuzi

A part of Kelmendi is also in MNE. Get your ass back there, boy.

[Leo Iscariot]

What about Serbia and Montenegro?

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/europe/serbia-and-montenegro/map_of_serbia-and-montenegro.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah, idk why it's wirtten Tuzi instead of Gruda. There is also some smaller Albanian clans in Montnegro such as Šestani located in Bar, though I think many of them are Slavophone today and they have many Serbian traditions such as Slava and cult of Saint Sava.
The Albanians in Shestani iirc come from various clans such as Shkreli, Kelmendi etc and aren't all from the same ancestor, I am unsure about them having Serbian traditions although I do know that they have Slavic surnames, an Albanian on this forum in from Shestani although with origin from either Gruda or Kelmendi iirc

[Kelmendasi]

A part of Kelmendi is also in MNE. Get your ass back there, boy.
Yh there were Kelmendi in the Gusinje area of Montenegro, most notably in the village of Vuthaj where they had migrated to from Vukli in Kelmend. Some Shkreli had also migrated to areas of Montenegro. Btw do you think you will be able to test your maternal side? I'm interested as they are related to the Jashari, Kuqi from the Drenica area have tested and they turned out to belong to E-V13>L241 unlike the Kuqi of Montenegro who are E-V13>Z16661, L241 is found in some Gashi and Thaci

[Dukagjini]

Yeah, idk why it's wirtten Tuzi instead of Gruda. There is also some smaller Albanian clans in Montnegro such as Šestani located in Bar, though I think many of them are Slavophone today and they have many Serbian traditions such as Slava and cult of Saint Sava.

I am from Shestani and yes there are Montenegrins/Slavophones in Shestan, but I think they were originally Albanian and got slavicized tho not sure. Shestan is mostly inhabitated by Albanians like me, which can trace their origins to other Albanian tribes.

[Dukagjini]

The Albanians in Shestani iirc come from various clans such as Shkreli, Kelmendi etc and aren't all from the same ancestor, I am unsure about them having Serbian traditions although I do know that they have Slavic surnames, an Albanian on this forum in from Shestani although with origin from either Gruda or Kelmendi iirc

We all have slavic last names, due to govt at the time who forcibly pushed -ic. My fam changed it tho. Others in my fam still have the -ic, just like other Albos in Shestan and MNE.

[Kelmendasi]

We all have slavic last names, due to govt at the time who forcibly pushed -ic. My fam changed it tho. Others in my fam still have the -ic, just like other Albos in Shestan and MNE.
Yh many of Albanians in MNE have had their surnames add "ic" to the end. From what clan does your paternal side stem from again, it was Kelmendi wasn't it?

[Dukagjini]

Yh many of Albanians in MNE have had their surnames add "ic" to the end. From what clan does your paternal side stem from again, it was Kelmendi wasn't it?

Grude from Tuzi. Though I am not tested, and many families in my area have the same surname as me. It all comes down to a test to figure all the stuff out. I have some Kelmendi through my mother's side.

[Kelmendasi]

Grude from Tuzi. Though I am not tested, and many families in my area have the same surname as me. It all comes down to a test to figure all the stuff out. I have some Kelmendi through my mother's side.
You could be J2b2-Y23094 as some Gruda clan members belong to this clade of J2b2 but you could belong to other haplogroups as Gruda is diverse since many people from different clans settled there, btw does your family say that they are descended from Vuksan Gjelaj or that they are from some other clan? Vuksan Gjelaj was a man that had moved to Gruda from Suma in Shkodra because of a blood feud and iirc most people in Grude stem from him. I think a test would be best

[Dukagjini]

You could be J2b2-Y23094 as some Gruda clan members belong to this clade of J2b2 but you could belong to other haplogroups as Gruda is diverse since many people from different clans settled there, btw does your family say that they are descended from Vuksan Gjelaj or that they are from some other clan? Vuksan Gjelaj was a man that had moved to Gruda from Suma in Shkodra because of a blood feud and iirc most people in Grude stem from him. I think a test would be best

No we don't know. A test figures all this out. Autosomally is also what I'm really wondering if I was to do a test. I dunno how much native balkan i'd get.

[Kelmendasi]

No we don't know. A test figures all this out. Autosomally is also what I'm really wondering if I was to do a test. I dunno how much native balkan i'd get.
I reckon you would get 90% and above Balkan

[Morlak]

I am from Shestani and yes there are Montenegrins/Slavophones in Shestan, but I think they were originally Albanian and got slavicized tho not sure. Shestan is mostly inhabitated by Albanians like me, which can trace their origins to other Albanian tribes.

Yes, Shestani were slavicized to some extent though I think majority kept Albanian identity. According to Djoko Dabovic (Dabaj), Shestani had good relations with Montenegro for most part. They even helped in wars against Turks

[Dukagjini]

I reckon you would get 90% and above Balkan

The thing is in our phenotypes it looks like we might have mixed with Montenegrins, though we still look very Albanian at the same time. Imo I think I look like a Malsor Albo from Grude/Tuzi somewhere, which would explain why I can supposedly trace my origins to Grudë.