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Joe McCarthy
03-02-2011, 06:57 PM
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/jan/27/tdopin02-samuelson-chinas-new-world-order-ar-801389/


WASHINGTON --
By all appearances, last week's visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao to Washington changed little in the lopsided American-Chinese relationship. What we have is a system that methodically transfers American jobs, technology and financial power to China in return for only modest Chinese support for important U.S. geopolitical goals: the suppression of Iran's and North Korea's nuclear weapons programs. American officials act as if there's not much they can do to change this.

It's true that the United States and China have huge common interests in peace and prosperity. Two-way trade (now about $500 billion annually) can provide low-cost consumer goods to Americans and foodstuffs and advanced manufactures to the Chinese. But China's and America's goals differ radically. The United States wants to broaden the post-World War II international order based on mutually advantageous trade. By contrast, China pursues a new global order in which its needs come first — one in which it subsidizes exports, controls essential imports (oil, food, minerals) and compels the transfer of advanced technology.

Naturally, the United States opposes this sort of system, but that's where we're headed. Clashing goals have trumped shared interests.

Start with distorted trade. The New York Times recently reported that Evergreen, a maker of solar panels, is shutting its Massachusetts factory, moving production to a joint venture in China and laying off 800 U.S. workers. Despite $43 million in Massachusetts state aid, Evergreen's CEO said that China's subsidies — mainly low-interest loans from state-controlled banks — were too great to pass up.

Thus subsidized, Chinese solar-panel production rose fiftyfold from 2005 to 2010, reports GTM, a market analysis company. Cheap bank loans to solar companies total about $30 billion, but it's unclear whether they'll be repaid in full, notes GTM analyst Shyam Mehta. "It could be free money," he says. China's share of global production jumped from 9 percent to 48 percent. In 2010, about 95 percent of China's solar panels were exported.

With details changed, similar stories apply to many industries. The undervaluation of China's currency, the renminbi, by 15 percent or more magnifies the advantage. Jobs shift to China from factories in the United States, Europe and elsewhere.

Next, consider technology transfer. Big multinational firms want to be in China, but the cost of doing so is often the loss of important technology through required licensing agreements, mandatory joint ventures, reverse engineering or outright theft. American software companies estimate that 85 percent to 90 percent of their products in China are pirated.

Writing in the Harvard Business Review, Thomas Hout and Pankaj Ghemawat cite China's high-speed rail projects. Initially, foreign firms such as Germany's Siemens got most contracts; in 2009, the government began requiring foreign firms to enter into minority joint ventures with Chinese companies. Having mastered the "core technologies," Chinese companies have captured 80 percent or more of the local market and compete with foreign firms for exports. The same thing is occurring in commercial aircraft. China is building a competitor to the Boeing 737 and the Airbus 320; General Electric has entered into a joint venture that will supply the avionics, the electronics that guide the aircraft.

Finally, there's finance. China's foreign exchange reserves — earned mainly through massive export surpluses — approached $2.9 trillion at year-end 2010. These vast holdings (which increase by hundreds of billions annually) enable China to expand its influence by sprinkling low-cost loans around the world or making strategic investments in raw materials and companies. The Financial Times recently reported that China — through the China Export-Import Bank and the China Development Bank — has "lent more money to other developing countries over the past two years than the World Bank."

It's important to make several qualifications. First, Americans shouldn't blame China for all our economic problems, which are mostly homegrown. Indeed, the ferocity of the financial crisis discredited U.S. economic leadership and emboldened China to pursue its narrow interests more aggressively than ever. Second, the point should not be (as Chinese allege) to "contain" China's growth; the point should be to modify its economic strategy, which is predatory. It comes at others' expense.

The U.S. response has been mostly carrots — to pretend that sweet reason will convince China to alter its policies. Last week, Presidents Obama and Hu exchanged largely meaningless pledges of "cooperation." Alan Tonelson of the U.S. Business and Industry Council, a group of manufacturers, says U.S. policy verges on "appeasement." We need sticks. The practical difficulty is being tougher without triggering a trade war that weakens the global recovery. Still, it's possible to do something. The Treasury could brand China a currency manipulator, which it clearly is. The administration could move more forcefully against Chinese subsidies. America's present passivity encourages China's new world order, with fateful consequences for the United States and everyone else.

Egbert
03-02-2011, 07:08 PM
Trump has suggested atleast a 25% tax on all products imported from China, this might atleast thin the flow of money and increase incentive for American manufacturing. They've kept their currency so low that American companies simply can't compete at this point. Short of nuking China, I really don't know what the best solution is.

Sol Invictus
03-02-2011, 07:49 PM
I immediately recall this:

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And then I remind myself who's in charge of the so-called Anglo-American world order, and come to the conclusion I desire neither on equal levels.


The United States wants to broaden the post-World War II international order based on mutually advantageous trade. By contrast, China pursues a new global order in which its needs come first — one in which it subsidizes exports, controls essential imports (oil, food, minerals) and compels the transfer of advanced technology.

And then I remember the folks who would swear by their life that we were not already living under a new world order.

Joe McCarthy
03-02-2011, 07:50 PM
Trump has suggested atleast a 25% tax on all products imported from China, this might atleast thin the flow of money and increase incentive for American manufacturing. They've kept their currency so low that American companies simply can't compete at this point. Short of nuking China, I really don't know what the best solution is.

Japan becomes very key. We'll have to consider letting them re-arm, which itself is dangerous. I'd say there's little chance of China and Japan teaming up though, as both populations hate each other on a visceral level.

Wyn
03-02-2011, 08:07 PM
6CqC-I7FiQw


Does one of them fart at around 2:37? :D

Apologies, Joe.

Joe McCarthy
03-02-2011, 08:09 PM
I immediately recall this:

6CqC-I7FiQw

And then I remind myself who's in charge of the so-called Anglo-American world order, and come to the conclusion I desire neither on equal levels.



And then I remember the folks who would swear by their life that we were not already living under a new world order.

A world order is merely an international system run under certain rules. The American world order is based on trade and trying to encourage mutual understanding and peace. The British dominated world order from the Congress of Vienna to the Great War was similar. It took conspiracy theorists to turn 'new world order' into something sinister.

In any case, anyone who thinks a Chinese dominated world order is on par with an American order is one of two things: a moron, or a Chinaman.

Sol Invictus
03-02-2011, 08:19 PM
The new world order means different things to different people but for those who expect to be in control of it means the same thing. It means all the world under their control. The people are too dumb to rule themselves, therefor they feel it's their role to rule, along with the destruction of every arbitrary power that can separately and of it's single choice disturb the peace of the world. It is not new, and it is not order.

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It took conspiracy theorists to turn 'new world order' into something sinister.

It absolutely is sinister. You're naive, blind or uninformed to think otherwise.


A world order is merely an international system run under certain rules.

As preservationists this should be at the top of the list of things that must be resisted if we are to survive. Any fantasies you have about how your white American race is going to be on-top and in control you can forget it. They're not interested. They want you, your people, country and traditions to be made illegal, and die. This is what the new world order is, and always has been about for centuries, and using ethnic cleansing by migratory tactics is just one of the age old tricks of this international system.

Egbert
03-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Japan becomes very key. We'll have to consider letting them re-arm, which itself is dangerous. I'd say there's little chance of China and Japan teaming up though, as both populations hate each other on a visceral level.

I would support allowing Japan to re-arm, obviously not including nuclear capabilities, if it would help to contain and ideally eliminate Chinese power and I agree that it probably would. Much like Israel in the Middle East...Japan could act as an allied forward base of operations in the region.

I would also add, that if the situation did become militarized, that India might play a role. The cold war between India and China tends to be overlooked, Indian officials have been quoted as saying all of their nukes are pointed at China.

Monolith
03-02-2011, 09:54 PM
Trump has suggested atleast a 25% tax on all products imported from China, this might atleast thin the flow of money and increase incentive for American manufacturing.
I doubt that's gonna happen any time soon, since most of American manufacturing is currently outsourced to China (and elsewhere). :P


They've kept their currency so low that American companies simply can't compete at this point.
Yep, and they know they're in a position in which they can get away with that. The US is pretty much powerless here, and is bound to remain powerless unless whoever rules your country acquires some bargaining chips.


Short of nuking China, I really don't know what the best solution is.
Your peoples' economies have become so intertwined that it wouldn't probably be that different from nuking your own country.

Joe McCarthy
03-03-2011, 08:05 PM
I would also add, that if the situation did become militarized, that India might play a role. The cold war between India and China tends to be overlooked, Indian officials have been quoted as saying all of their nukes are pointed at China.

Yes, India is key as well. They have several boundary disputes and have been enemies since the Sino-Indian War in 1962.

Basically we're in the same situation Britain was in prior to the Great War - a declining power trying to stop a rising power. In that case Britain outmaneuvered Germany and made alliances with three old foes - the US, France, and Russia - all within nine years. If there is one thing America has mastered over the years it is diplomacy, which is heavily WASP dominated, I might add. I doubt China will be able to turn states like Japan and India, though ironically, I'm more worried about Europe...

Joe McCarthy
03-03-2011, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Monolith
Yep, and they know they're in a position in which they can get away with that. The US is pretty much powerless here, and is bound to remain powerless unless whoever rules your country acquires some bargaining chips.


The US is far from powerless. China's economy is fueled by exports, and we're their main market. They are also dependent on our distribution channels to move their products. They also need our technology. These are hammers we can use at any moment. Even the weakness of the dollar is of no use to them, as sinking it will only devalue their dollar denominated holdings. In fact, the amusing thing is that the weak dollar, which they're stuck with, is stunting their growth.


Your peoples' economies have become so intertwined that it wouldn't probably be that different from nuking your own country.

Trust me, if we nuke China, they'll get the worst of it. :D

Monolith
03-04-2011, 06:04 PM
The US is far from powerless.
Of course. There's always something that can be done, but I think in this case China has the upper hand.


China's economy is fueled by exports, and we're their main market. They are also dependent on our distribution channels to move their products. They also need our technology. These are hammers we can use at any moment.
It's a lose-lose scenario.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-02/17/c_13736221.htm


Even the weakness of the dollar is of no use to them, as sinking it will only devalue their dollar denominated holdings. In fact, the amusing thing is that the weak dollar, which they're stuck with, is stunting their growth.
Sure thing, but that's also endangering (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/29/us-dollar-reserves-un-idUSTRE65S40620100629) it's role as reserve (or anchor) currency. If you ask me, the US dollar was doomed to fail as the world's reserve currency the moment the US started accumulating trade deficits with Japan and China, effectively enabling them to slowly drain most of your gold supplies.

Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma






Trust me, if we nuke China, they'll get the worst of it. :D
I'm sure they would, but your economy would be devastated as well. That's beyond any doubt, really.

Joe McCarthy
03-05-2011, 08:21 AM
The US-China relationship is best understood by who gets what. We get cheap goods, which while good, pales in comparison to what they're getting - reserves to build up their war machine and exert their influence globally. The post-war international system is based on mutually advantageous free trade, with the understanding that everyone plays by the rules. China plays by its own rules, so that means we must apply a new set of rules to them - isolation and containment to blunt their rise, employing trade barriers and alliances. We did much of this, I might add, for over twenty years after the founding of the PRC, only to be undermined in our effort by certain Europeans doing business with them. We need not even necessarily pay for higher goods in doing these things. We can just move plants to safer locales, which will happen once we slap tariffs on Chinese goods.

Baron Samedi
03-05-2011, 10:24 AM
Apparently they don't have one pound fruit cups.

That's why they are FUCKING COMMUNISTS.

Joe McCarthy
03-05-2011, 02:40 PM
Apparently they don't have one pound fruit cups.

That's why they are FUCKING COMMUNISTS. Such frivolities mean little to the Communist Party. They're after power mainly, not cheap crap. We'd better start thinking in similar terms, or else.

Curtis24
03-05-2011, 03:06 PM
China's main problem is that the loyalty of their bureacrats - the people responsible for running the government - is contingent upon being paid lots of money. If China experiences some sort of economic downturn, these bureacrats will accept bribes from Western corporations to act in the interests of those corporations. The result will be a fracturing of the Chinese country along regional lines, and the undermining of China as a political entity.

Joe McCarthy
03-05-2011, 03:32 PM
China certainly has a problem with corruption, and it would certainly be beautiful to watch the country fragment and break up. In fact, the West had just that idea for the post-war world, but our good buddy Uncle Joe vetoed the idea. Communists...