How exactly did Sardinia remain so genetically isolated? It makes little sense.

[Sikeliot]

Sardinians are the closest we have to a pure Neolithic Anatolian Farmer population, having been shielded from genetic inputs and migratory waves that have shaped and defined the regions around them.

They lack the significant Caucasian and Iranian Neolithic input of other Italians, they lack the Steppe input of nearly all Europeans (even Sicily has more), and there is no other existing population that is close to them genetically. But why?

It is actually remarkable to me that this has occurred when you consider the following:

1. Sardinia is not in a particularly geographically remote location.

Sardinia is actually less geographically isolated than Corsica or the Balearic islands. It is literally in the middle of the Mediterranean. If we consider Caucasian/Iranian Neolithic/CHG mixture is very low in Sardinia but seems to have made it to all of the surrounding areas, making up a significant portion of Italian DNA, and that their Steppe input is also low to nonexistent but is even higher in Sicily or Crete than in Sardinia, we have to wonder... why is this? Did these groups simply bypass Sardinia and sail around it, going to Corsica, Italy, southern France, Sicily?

What would the migratory patterns for CHG type people and Steppe pastoralists have had to look like for Sardinia to remain so isolated genetically?

https://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/westmed.gif


2. It makes sense for one formative wave of migration to miss Sardinia, but all of them?

This seems unlikely to me. Sardinia was settled by many of the same groups as Sicily... Romans, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, but this does not show. Additionally, how are they the ONLY part of Europe with no Steppe input? What was so peculiar about Sardinia that they just happened to miss it?


3. Even Mycenaeans, Bronze Age Sicilians, and Minoans had more admixture with waves of migration such as CHG and Steppe than MODERN Sardinians have.

This means the Sardinian gene pool is already more ancient, more frozen in time, and less admixed than ANCIENT populations such as Sicanians, Minoans, and Mycenaeans. What are the odds?

We also find that the further back in time we go, the more European groups begin to look like Sardinians. Mycenaeans for instance were more Sardinian-like than modern Greeks are, and Bronze Age Sicilians were more Sardinian-like than modern Sicilians. Additionally we even find Sardinian-like samples from Northern, Western, Central Europe.


4. Even Basques have "mixed" more than Sardinians have.

Basques are genetically closer to Iberians as a whole than Sardinians are to any other group of Europeans.

[Iloko]

Is the Alpine phenotype common among Sardinians, and why? I was quite surprised to see many photos of them with Alpinid influence, though I would've assumed Gracile-Med to be the more prevalent phenotype among them in general.

[Petalpusher]

To me it simply reinforces the idea early farmers cultures had ways to properly navigate and 5000 years later steppe people did not. PIE does have a name for sailing on lake and river but not on seas, the Greeks later even had to adjust the word for it. Every parts of Europe had some steppe, anywhere connected to land or as long as the journey wasn't too difficult (Sicily, UK,..) it ended up with some IE, but to go to Sardinia you have to be able to sail seriously on a distance to colonize the land. When thinking about it, it makes sense since people living in the steppe never saw anything remotely looking like an ocean in their life even when they were crossing all Europe, they probably never felt the need for it.

Sardinians have some more recent and minor influences, and Corsica is mostly a transfuge from mainland but it's very possible it was like Sardinia before that.

[gıulıoımpa]

More serious and lucrative business was on the mainland and this wss valid from the beginning of time. Sardinia can only give basic mineral resources and not a lot more,why make the effort against some really determined islanders.
Hordes and invaders went for Rome,tyrrenian coast or some other big city.
Only ones that for some times were really determined to conquer Sardinia were the saracens who where pushed back succesfully.


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[Teucer]

Asked a similar question a while ago. The responses I got where that Sardania as a land mass didn't have much resource wealth and so people didn't bother going there

[Mens-Sarda]

Asked a similar question a while ago. The responses I got where that Sardania as a land mass didn't have much resource wealth and so people didn't bother going there

I don't agree about the lack of resources. Ancient Phoenicians knew very well the wealth of the island and for this reason they started to build trade ports on the southern coast around 1000 b.C. The plains of south Sardinia are a huge fertile land, they were one of the most important granaries during the Roman age. There are mines of iron, silver, copper, coal; but Sardinia lacks totally of tin, for this reason the Nuragic civilization imported it from Cyprus. Moreover in Sardinia during the paleolithic age there was a trade net based upon the extraction of Obsidian, from the rocks of Monte Arci, an extinct volcano situated in central Sardinia. The obsidian extracted in Sardinia has been found even on the Alps, in southern France and in North Africa.

The Obsidian road :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg/452px-Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg.png

Returning to Sikeliot's question : How exactly did Sardinia remain so genetically isolated? It makes little sense.

I will try to answer

Since Sardinia was populated by a bellicose culture like that of the Sea Peoples / Shardana / Sherden, and so on. Who would want to go to bother such peoples?

The decline of these peoples however started only when the Phoenician and Carthaginian navy dominated the sea. In that age Sardinians retreated from the sea, becoming an agro-pastoral culture, but never abandoning the bellicose and stubborn temper, for this reason Carthaginians had great difficulties to rule upon their half of the island. After Carthaginians the Romans conquered the island with a series of bloody battles, but the rebellions in the inner areas lasted for centuries, they didn't even control the whole island, but the peoples living on the mountains were declared "foederati" (allies), they were practically independent at least until the Byzantine age; from a letter written by Pope Gregorius Magnus to reprimand the Sardinian bishops we know that these peoples were still pagan until VIth century A.D.

The closure of Sardinia to what happened outside increased after the VIIIth century A.D. with the beginning of Saracen assaults. A Sardinian historian said that the island in that period developed a mentality of "island under siege", the Sardinian people totally closed in itself, while in Europe evolved kingdoms based upon the Feudal System in Sardinia continued to work the late Roman and Byzantine institutions for centuries, the Feudal System was totally unknown, and it was introduced only in 1420, after the Aragonese conquest.

Around 1000. A.D. many coastal towns were abandoned because of the Saracen assaults, everyone who came from the sea was an enemy, as the Sardinian proverb says "Quie bènit dae su mare bènit a furare" (who comes from the sea comes to steal). The Sardinian people totally abandoned the sea, think that until 50 years ago Sardinians didn't exploit the sea, we didn't fish, we didn't sail, etc.etc.; still today most of Sardinians simply ignore the sea, living in the inner areas and never going to the sea, for this reason in the coastal towns, expecially along the eastern coast the near totality of fishermen are Campanians or from the island of Ponza in Latium. Our culture is totally agro-pastoral, and so is our cuisine, made of meat, cheese, products of the soil, and almost zero fish. All of this explains also the persistent diffidence of Sardinians toward strangers, which are seen as different and unable to understand us and our culture; marriages with non-Sardinians are not common at all, expecially in the inner areas, for example, in my village the Italians can be counted using just two hands, and even if some of them lived here 40 or 50 years, many people don't even know their names (mostly because they have weird Italian surnames) and they are simply "su continentale" or "sa continentale" (the continental).

[Percivalle]

1. Sardinia is not in a particularly geographically remote location.

Sardinia is actually less geographically isolated than Corsica or the Balearic islands. It is literally in the middle of the Mediterranean. .

It's the opposite, being Sardinia is in the middle of the Mediterranean is more isolated than Corsica and Balearic islands that are closer to the mainland coasts.

[Bosniensis]

Byzantine Woman had extremely Strong West Med component and matched Sardinians + Greeks.

My answer due to Sardinian Isolation is it's not that they became Isolated but Italians got SEVERLY MIXED with Germanic and other people, so that made them isolated.

[Morena]

a good question. I think it has to do with the geography of the island itself and the character of the people. Basically, what Mens-Sarda wrote. Personally, I'm glad. I think Sardinians are an attractive race.

[Lucas]

I don't agree about the lack of resources. Ancient Phoenicians knew very well the wealth of the island and for this reason they started to build trade ports on the southern coast around 1000 b.C. The plains of south Sardinia are a huge fertile land, they were one of the most important granaries during the Roman age. There are mines of iron, silver, copper, coal; but Sardinia lacks totally of tin, for this reason the Nuragic civilization imported it from Cyprus. Moreover in Sardinia during the paleolithic age there was a trade net based upon the extraction of Obsidian, from the rocks of Monte Arci, an extinct volcano situated in central Sardinia. The obsidian extracted in Sardinia has been found even on the Alps, in southern France and in North Africa.

The Obsidian road :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg/452px-Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg.png

Returning to Sikeliot's question : How exactly did Sardinia remain so genetically isolated? It makes little sense.

I will try to answer

Since Sardinia was populated by a bellicose culture like that of the Sea Peoples / Shardana / Sherden, and so on. Who would want to go to bother such peoples?

The decline of these peoples however started only when the Phoenician and Carthaginian navy dominated the sea. In that age Sardinians retreated from the sea, becoming an agro-pastoral culture, but never abandoning the bellicose and stubborn temper, for this reason Carthaginians had great difficulties to rule upon their half of the island. After Carthaginians the Romans conquered the island with a series of bloody battles, but the rebellions in the inner areas lasted for centuries, they didn't even control the whole island, but the peoples living on the mountains were declared "foederati" (allies), they were practically independent at least until the Byzantine age; from a letter written by Pope Gregorius Magnus to reprimand the Sardinian bishops we know that these peoples were still pagan until VIth century A.D.

The closure of Sardinia to what happened outside increased after the VIIIth century A.D. with the beginning of Saracen assaults. A Sardinian historian said that the island in that period developed a mentality of "island under siege", the Sardinian people totally closed in itself, while in Europe evolved kingdoms based upon the Feudal System in Sardinia continued to work the late Roman and Byzantine institutions for centuries, the Feudal System was totally unknown, and it was introduced only in 1420, after the Aragonese conquest.

Around 1000. A.D. many coastal towns were abandoned because of the Saracen assaults, everyone who came from the sea was an enemy, as the Sardinian proverb says "Quie bènit dae su mare bènit a furare" (who comes from the sea comes to steal). The Sardinian people totally abandoned the sea, think that until 50 years ago Sardinians didn't exploit the sea, we didn't fish, we didn't sail, etc.etc.; still today most of Sardinians simply ignore the sea, living in the inner areas and never going to the sea, for this reason in the coastal towns, expecially along the eastern coast the near totality of fishermen are Campanians or from the island of Ponza in Latium. Our culture is totally agro-pastoral, and so is our cuisine, made of meat, cheese, products of the soil, and almost zero fish. All of this explains also the persistent diffidence of Sardinians toward strangers, which are seen as different and unable to understand us and our culture; marriages with non-Sardinians are not common at all, expecially in the inner areas, for example, in my village the Italians can be counted using just two hands, and even if some of them lived here 40 or 50 years, many people don't even know their names (mostly because they have weird Italian surnames) and they are simply "su continentale" or "sa continentale" (the continental).

Very interesting!

[Peterski]

Another question - why Corsica did not remain as genetically isolated as Sardinia?

[Dunai]

Next to the Basks and Rhaetians, the Sardinians are truly one of the most fascinating Western European people, especially how enigmatic they are to this day. It's truly impressive how well they managed to preserve their genetic purity since ancient times, I just really wonder how come they speak a Romance language and not something that resembles more strongly to Latin, if they weren't that much in contact with people who shifted towards Romance? Or was it natural that all Latin speaking people at one point in the early Middle Ages decided to abandon Latin and speak something that still was rooted in it, but still quite different?

[Morena]

Another question - why Corsica did not remain as genetically isolated as Sardinia?

I wonder that myself.


Next to the Basks and Rhaetians, the Sardinians are truly one of the most fascinating Western European people, especially how enigmatic they are to this day. It's truly impressive how well they managed to preserve their genetic purity since ancient times, I just really wonder how come they speak a Romance language and not something that resembles more strongly to Latin, if they weren't that much in contact with people who shifted towards Romance. Or was it natural that all Latin speaking people at one point in the early Middle Ages decided to abandon Latin and speak something that still was rooted in it, but still quite different?

Languages change overtime. It's natural. But I think that the changes from Latin to Romance probably was influenced by the original, pre-Latin languages. Words were added, grammar was changed a little bit, etc.

[alnortedelsur]

Another question - why Corsica did not remain as genetically isolated as Sardinia?

Or Balearic Islands? I guess that in the case of Balearic Islands is because they were heavily repopulated by Catalans and Aragonese during the Spanish Reconquista.

[Dunai]

I wonder that myself.



Languages change overtime. It's natural. But I think that the changes from Latin to Romance probably was influenced by the original, pre-Latin languages. Words were added, grammar was changed a little bit, etc.

Your explanation makes sense, since Latin lost its prestige after the fall of the Roman Empire, and there wasn't any more authoritative institution behind preserving the purity of Latin, maybe except the Roman-Catholic Church. After what you said, I believe all the common folk started to shift to a "corrupted" Latin mixed with their native pre-Latin languages, forming something new.

[Marmara]

Sardinians aren't pure neolithic. They are the closest population to Anatolian farmers but their distance is quite high, like 25-30. Sardinians have additional WHG admixture.

[Mens-Sarda]

Another question - why Corsica did not remain as genetically isolated as Sardinia?

Corsica is less geographically isolated, it's near the continent, and it's littler (about 1/3 of Sardinia), and also very underpopulated, just 300.000 inhabitants. In the middle ages northern Corsica received a consistent input from Tuscany, when the island was under the control of the Republic of Pisa; while the southern Corsicans more geographically isolated (because of the mountains) remained more similar to Sardinians. Corsica is more wild and mountainous than Sardinia, most of the territory is composed by mountains above 2000mt up to 2700mt, during winter 90% of the island is covered by snow, this made that the northern Corsicans more exposed to Pisan colonization started to be genetically and linguistically different from those in the south. This kind of division is also evident from the names of the two halves of the island, the northern part is named Cismonte (Latin "Cis montem" = before the mountain), the southern part Pomonte (Post Montem = after the mountain).

[Leto]

All of this explains also the persistent diffidence of Sardinians toward strangers, which are seen as different and unable to understand us and our culture; marriages with non-Sardinians are not common at all, expecially in the inner areas, for example, in my village the Italians can be counted using just two hands, and even if some of them lived here 40 or 50 years, many people don't even know their names (mostly because they have weird Italian surnames) and they are simply "su continentale" or "sa continentale" (the continental).
Really? Aren't you guys all Italian? I mean it's been like 150 years since the unification of Italy. Are there many Sardinians in the big cities of Italy?

[Leto]

Model Melissa Satta, the wife of Kevin Prince Boateng (German-Ghanaian football player) is from Sardinia.

[Mens-Sarda]

Really? Aren't you guys all Italian? I mean it's been like 150 years since the unification of Italy. Are there many Sardinians in the big cities of Italy?

Sardinians have a strong cultural identity different from those in the continent, with our own language and culture that are not Italians. Think to the old USSR, everyone was a Soviet citizen, but an Armenian or Georgian was not Russian. It's the same for Sardinians, we are citizens of Italy but we are not ethnic Italians. We still remain a different people in every way, different language, culture, traditions, mentality, even DNA.

A Sardinian first of all identifies himself as Sardinian and just after as Italian; most of Sardinians don't feel Italian at all.

Instead, about Sardinians in Italy, in the past many people left the island, mostly going to Rome, or Genova, or in Tuscany to work in the countryside which was totally abandoned by local inhabitants.

[Leto]

Sardinians have a strong cultural identity different from those in the continent, with our own language and culture that are not Italians. Think to the old USSR, everyone was a Soviet citizen, but an Armenian or Georgian was not Russian. It's the same for Sardinians, we are citizens of Italy but we are not ethnic Italians. We still remain a different people in every way, different language, culture, traditions, mentality, even DNA.

A Sardinian first of all identifies himself as Sardinian and just after as Italian; most of Sardinians don't feel Italian at all.

Instead, about Sardinians in Italy, in the past many people left the island, mostly going to Rome, or Genova, or in Tuscany to work in the countryside which was totally abandoned by local inhabitants.
That's interesting. Well, you guys have the right to remain as you are. However, the example with Georgians and Armenians is not very good IMO, since these are not Slavic people, they are not even European, especially Armenians. Sardinians are Romance speakers and Roman Catholics. Do you all speak Standard Italian now?
I'm asking this because I have a feeling that certain members who have been posting Italian results for many years without actually living in Italy exaggerate the differences between Italian regions and claim they are almost different ethnicities. I obviously don't know much myself, since Italy is not my primary focus. But you just cannot ignore Italian genetics being a TA member. :)

[Mens-Sarda]

That's interesting. Well, you guys have the right to remain as you are. However, the example with Georgians and Armenians is not very good IMO, since these are not Slavic people, they are not even European, especially Armenians. Sardinians are Romance speakers and Roman Catholics. Do you all speak Standard Italian now?
I'm asking this because I have a feeling that certain members who have been posting Italian results for many years without actually living in Italy exaggerate the differences between Italian regions and claim they are almost different ethnicities. I obviously don't know much myself, since Italy is not my primary focus. But you just cannot ignore Italian genetics being a TA member. :)

Sardinians are basically a pre-IE people which started to use Latin language during the Roman age totally forgetting the paleo-Sardinian language. Everyone in Sardinia is able to speak Italian with a typical Sardinian accent; the elders speak it with more difficulties than youngs, some elder in the inner areas can speak only Sardinian.

Sardinia is a thing apart from every other region, because it was never part of the Italian cultural / linguistic continuum during all the middle ages / renaissance. The Italian language has been imposed after Italian unification, but until the Fascist epoch no one spoke Italian here.

About the differences among Italian regions, there are the southern regions (except Sardinia) that form a sort of block that matches more or less with the borders of the old Kingdom of Naples, those regions have similar languages/dialects and culture. Same more or less for the regions of central Italy, while northern Italy is more eterogeneous. Surely there are a lot of regional Romance languages not related to Italian.