Things which annoy you in Estonian/Finnish

[Äike]

I created this thread to discuss the annoying(and sometimes confusing) differences between Estonian and Finnish.

I'll start with a few examples.

Estonian tt = Finnish t
Estonian t = Finnish d
Estonian d = non-existent?

I was in Finland some time ago and staying at my friend's place. We were talking about Itäkeskus and I kept saying "Itäkeskus" and pronounced the "t" like it's normal here. Then my friend was surprised why I pronounce it as "Ittäkeskus"(Finnish terms), while in Estonian terms, I would have had to say "Idäkeskus".

I also find it illogical that "y" in Finnish(and also Swedish) equals "ü". For most foreigners not familiar with Northern-Europe, this is probably very confusing. Some Estonian linguistic professors have said through the course of history that the "ü" should be replaced with "y" in the Estonian language. I strongly disagree with that. Anyway, when Estonians use a keyboard or a phone without an "ü", then we type "y" instead. When there's no "õ", then we type "6" instead.

[Talvi]

I dont know any Finnish but I think the fact that some words and grammar are the same but have different meanings.
Like... pappi raiskama, hallitus and etc...

Also I am aware that for example in Finnish it is possible to say something like "minun autoni" .. In Estonian "minu autoni" means "to my car" as in "lets walk to my car (kõnnime minu autoni)" but as I understand in Finnish it means possessive like "my car". Very confusing.

In Finnish there seems to be a lot of double vocals and double consonants placed together and I am unaware how to pronounce these things. Like Riippumatto. :D
I guess the double consonant is pronounced as 1 consonant not 2 like in Estonian.. but for me its still confusing.

All those yuoä together in the same word are like a tongue twister.

[Äike]

I dont know any Finnish

Neither do I, as I have had no reason to learn Finnish. If I needed to learn it, then I guess that I could speak Finnish at a basic level in a month or less.


In Finnish there seems to be a lot of double vocals and double consonants placed together and I am unaware how to pronounce these things. Like Riippumatto. :D
I guess the double consonant is pronounced as 1 consonant not 2 like in Estonian.. but for me its still confusing.

Yeah, from an Estonian point of view, it's dumb.

pp = p
p = b
b = non-existent

tt = t
t = d
d = non-existent

kk = k
k = g
g = non-existent

Thus Riippumatto should be pronounced as Riipumato.

[Talvi]

Neither do I, as I have had no reason to learn Finnish. If I needed to learn it, then I guess that I could speak Finnish at a basic level in a month or less.

Ive been thinking it would be fun to know some Finnish but I havent really bothered to learn. And because its too similar I cant remember it.
I tried an online learning game once where I had to mach objects with the correct words. Because its so similar and with a lot of the basic words youd just have to rely on logic I got everything right. Do I remember any of it? No.

I think its easier to learn a language thats completely different. Similarities just get in the way.

[Aino]

In Finnish there seems to be a lot of double vocals and double consonants placed together and I am unaware how to pronounce these things. Like Riippumatto. :D
I guess the double consonant is pronounced as 1 consonant not 2 like in Estonian.. but for me its still confusing.

No, a double consonant is pronounced like a double consonant. It is you Estonians who write a single consonant but pronounce it double. :loco:

[Äike]

No, a double consonant is pronounced like a double consonant.

For us Estonians, you pronounce it as a single consonant/p.

Like when I was in Finland, people were looking funnily at me when I said Itäkeskus, not Idäkeskus. It's complete idiocy to write a "t" but to pronounce it as a "d". :D


It is you Estonians who write a single consonant but pronounce it double. :loco:

It's you Finns who write two consonants, but pronounce it as a single consonant. :p

[Talvi]

No, a double consonant is pronounced like a double consonant. It is you Estonians who write a single consonant but pronounce it double. :loco:

haha.. actually sometimes it does annoy me in Estonian.
like "-mata" means something is not done like "kirjutamata" not yet written, "ütlemata" not said... but its pronounced like "matta" .. usually

[Aino]

haha.. actually sometimes it does annoy me in Estonian.
like "-mata" means something is not done like "kirjutamata" not yet written, "ütlemata" not said... but its pronounced like "matta" .. usually

The corresponding word would be kirjoittamatta in Finnish.

[Äike]

haha.. actually sometimes it does annoy me in Estonian.
like "-mata" means something is not done like "kirjutamata" not yet written, "ütlemata" not said... but its pronounced like "matta" .. usually

The "-mata" thing is a rare case, in most cases t=t, tt=tt and d=d.

[The Ripper]

For us Estonians, you pronounce it as a single consonant/p.

Like when I was in Finland, people were looking funnily at me when I said Itäkeskus, not Idäkeskus. It's complete idiocy to write a "t" but to pronounce it as a "d". :D

Itä is not pronounced with a d-sound (like you would find in the name David).


It's you Finns who write two consonants, but pronounce it as a single consonant. :p

Again, incorrect.

[Äike]

Itä is not pronounced with a d-sound (like you would find in the name David).

When I visited Finland one time and stayed at my friend's place, he told me that Itäkeskus isn't pronounced as Itäkeskus(Finnish Ittäkeskus), but as Idäkeskus(Finnish Itäkeskus).

He pronounced it exactly like Idäkeskus.

Estonian d doesn't equal Finnish d.


Again, incorrect.

I am talking about personal experience from an Estonian point of view.

Let's take the name Mati. Us Estonians pronounce it as Mati, but if you want the Finns also to pronounce it as Mati, then you have to write it with 2 t's (tt) in Finland.

The Mati example is taken from thin air, I learned that on a course that explained some of the differences in Estonian and Finnish. The person who explained it, spoke fluent Finnish.

[Don Brick]

It's you Finns who write two consonants, but pronounce it as a single consonant. :p

Yes, but +5 million against around 1 million = we win :D

[Äike]

Yes, but +5 million against around 1 million = we win :D

Nah, it's more like this:

"We weren't occupied by the USSR = we win".

If Finland would have been occupied by the USSR and Estonia wouldn't have been occupied, then we would be speaking about Finnish immigrants in Estonia and Finns learning Estonian, not the other way around. The population number wouldn't have meant much. :)

[Don Brick]

Nah, it's more like this:

"We weren't occupied by the USSR = we win".

If Finland would have been occupied by the USSR and Estonia wouldn't have been occupied, then we would be speaking about Finnish immigrants in Estonia and Finns learning Estonian, not the other way around. The population number wouldn't have meant much. :)

Sure, my friend, sure. :tongue

[The Ripper]

When I visited Finland one time and stayed at my friend's place, he told me that Itäkeskus isn't pronounced as Itäkeskus(Finnish Ittäkeskus), but as Idäkeskus(Finnish Itäkeskus).

He pronounced it exactly like Idäkeskus.

It is not a d-sound even if Estonians use d to mean t. In all other languages that I know of, d is used for sounds such as found in the name Denmark or David.


I am talking about personal experience from an Estonian point of view.

Let's take the name Mati. Us Estonians pronounce it as Mati, but if you want the Finns also to pronounce it as Mati, then you have to write it with 2 t's (tt) in Finland.

The Mati example is taken from thin air, I learned that on a course that explained some of the differences in Estonian and Finnish. The person who explained it, spoke fluent Finnish.

Mati and Matti sound completely different in Finnish. Mati does not have the same "stopping" double consonant as two ts. How would an Estonian pronounce it if it was spelled with a double consonant, i.e. Matti? Would the pronounciation be different from Mati?

[Äike]

It is not a d-sound even if Estonians use d to mean t. In all other languages that I know of, d is used for sounds such as found in the name Denmark or David.

The Estonian d is normal and we do not pronounce it as t.


Mati and Matti sound completely different in Finnish. Mati does not have the same "stopping" double consonant as two ts. How would an Estonian pronounce it if it was spelled with a double consonant, i.e. Matti? Would the pronounciation be different from Mati?

I think that Estonian is the only language in the world that has Estonian has three distinctive vowel lengths, Finnish as two.
Mati and Matti have a difference, they have a different pronunciation, as one t is different from 2 t's(tt) . But as the Finns have only two vowel lengths(like all other people in the world), then we have to write Matti, for it to be pronounced Mati by the Finns. And our d's and t's are like the ones used elsewhere.

[The Ripper]

The Estonian d is normal and we do not pronounce it as t.

Well Itä is not pronounced with a d sound in any case. Whoever told you that is wrong.


I think that Estonian is the only language in the world that has Estonian has three distinctive vowel lengths, Finnish as two.

So you have Mati -> Finnish Matti, then you have Matti ---> Finnish Mattti? :confused:


Mati and Matti have a difference, they have a different pronunciation, as one t is different from 2 t's(tt) . But as the Finns have only two vowel lengths(like all other people in the world), then we have to write Matti, for it to be pronounced Mati by the Finns. And our d's and t's are like the ones used elsewhere.

So when you write it with one t, its a double (like Finnish Matti), when you write it with two, its a single? :confused:

You're just confusing me more.

[Äike]

Well Itä is not pronounced with a d sound in any case. Whoever told you that is wrong.

I am telling you how the Finns around me pronounced it.


So you have Mati -> Finnish Matti, then you have Matti ---> Finnish Mattti? :confused:[quote]

It should be so, but I am not certain about anything now.

[quote]So when you write it with one t, its a double (like Finnish Matti), when you write it with two, its a single? :confused:

You're just confusing me more.

Now I am also confused. It would help a lot, if I knew how the Finns pronounce the "d" in different words.

For instance, are the three words Madi, Mati and Matti, all different in pronunciation?

[The Ripper]

Wikipedia to the rescue:


Viron kielen konsonanttijärjestelmä eroaa suomen kielen konsonantistosta selvimmin siinä suhteessa, että suomen lyhyitä klusiileja vastaavat b-, d- ja g-kirjaimilla merkittävät äänteet eivät ole soinnillisia vaan ns. soinnittomia meedioita, pehmeämmin artikuloituvia klusiileja. Esimerkiksi viron d kuulostaa karkeasti sanoen jonkinlaiselta t:ltä tai suomen d:n ja t:n välimuodolta. P-, t- ja k-kirjaimilla taas merkitään puolipitkiä klusiileja; esimerkiksi paikannimi Otepää lausutaan melkein kuin "Otteppää".

In Finnish, the letter D is always pronounced as it is pronounced in English or German for example.


For instance, are the three words Madi, Mati and Matti, all different in pronunciation?

Of course, they use different letter combinations.

[Äike]

Wikipedia to the rescue:



In Finnish, the letter D is always pronounced as it is pronounced in English or German for example.

What does "tai suomen d:n ja t:n välimuodolta" mean? The word "välimuodolta" isn't understandable for me.

I Otepää sounds like "Otteppää" for Finns, then I have no idea how do you pronounce a word with 2 t's(tt).

Anyway, if Otepää would be a Finnish word, then for us it would sound like Odebää, I think(not certain)...


Of course, they use different letter combinations.

For us, that "Mati" sounds like a "Madi".

[Motörhead Remember Me]

^For an Estonian t equals d as d is pronounced as a t in Estonian.

[The Ripper]

What does "tai suomen d:n ja t:n välimuodolta" mean? The word "välimuodolta" isn't understandable for me.

http://translate.google.com/#fi|et|välimuoto


I Otepää sounds like "Otteppää" for Finns, then I have no idea how do you pronounce a word with 2 t's(tt).

Uhm... wat :D It says right there: Otte would be written Ote in Estonian.


Anyway, if Otepää would be a Finnish word, then for us it would sound like Odebää, I think(not certain)...

For us, that "Mati" sounds like a "Madi".

Well, seems your letter D is some kind of semi-T in that case, as wiki suggests. May be you can find some Estonian guides on how to pronounce Finnish, so that we can have it from both angles.

[The Ripper]

Btw, I just noticed google translate has a "listen" function, it seems fairly accurate at least for Finnish. You can try typing in words and listen to them there to get a better idea.

[Äike]

Btw, I just noticed google translate has a "listen" function, it seems fairly accurate at least for Finnish. You can try typing in words and listen to them there to get a better idea.

I typed "Mati" into google translate and it sounded like "Madi" to me. But we need a 2nd Estonian opinion, like Talvi's opinion.

I picked up my dusty "Finnish for beginners" book and there's a CD in it too, I browsed the book and on the CD the Finnish alphabet is read, I am going to put that into my computer and tell you what I think about the d, t and tt issue.

[Matritensis]

Well,my Finnish is still fairly basic,but for sure Finns don't pronounce "Itäkeskus" as "Idäkeskus".To me Estonian sounds like a very drunk Finn trying to pronounce correctly....sorry,no offence intended but it sounds funny!

[The Ripper]

I typed "Mati" into google translate and it sounded like "Madi" to me. But we need a 2nd Estonian opinion, like Talvi's opinion.

To see the difference between Finnish d and t in relation to Estonian pronunciation, try both "madi" and "mati".

[Äike]

Well,my Finnish is still fairly basic,but for sure Finns don't pronounce "Itäkeskus" as "Idäkeskus".To me Estonian sounds like a very drunk Finn trying to pronounce correctly....sorry,no offence intended but it sounds funny!

To me personally, Finnish sounds like a very drunk Estonian trying to say something.

...and I'm not joking.

When a sober Estonian says "Mina olen Karl", then a drunk one would say something similar to "Minää olän Karl".

Or Estonian "Mida vittu?" sounds like "Mitä vittu" when the person is drunk.

I can bring more examples if necessary.

I actually have wanted to mention this for years, of Estonian words turning into more Finnish-like words, when spoken by a very drunk Estonian, but I didn't want to offend the Finns. At least I had an opportunity now and I still do not want to offend the Finns. :)

[The Ripper]

Don't worry about offending us, we're so ethnocentric we couldn't even comprehend how Estonians could find Finnish funny when its clearly the other way around to anyone with ears. :D

jPvMyDHcPUw

(This is from the early 1980's, so it also makes fun of soviet Estonian television)

;)

[Talvi]

I have gained this knowledge from this thread:

Finnish tt = t
Finnish t = d
Finnish d = dd

[Äike]

I spoke with a friend of mine who speaks Finnish and got some information about this issue.

In Finnish, the "t" turns into a "d" if it is between 2 vowels. For instance, you can write the word Itäkeskus and Mati, but a Finn will pronounce them as Idäkeskus and Madi, because the t is between i and ä in the first word and the t is between a and i in the second word.

But if the "t" is next to a consonant, the Finns pronounce it as a proper t, not a d.

Thus there are 2 ways to pronounce the Finnish t, it's either a t or a d. While in Estonian, we speak a logical language and we say things identically to the written form. ;)

[The Ripper]

I spoke with a friend of mine who speaks Finnish and got some information about this issue.

In Finnish, the "t" turns into a "d" if it is between 2 vowels. For instance, you can write the word Itäkeskus and Mati, but a Finn will pronounce them as Idäkeskus and Madi, because the t is between i and ä in the first word and the t is between a and i in the second word.

But if the "t" is next to a consonant, the Finns pronounce it as a proper t, not a d.

Thus there are 2 ways to pronounce the Finnish t, it's either a t or a d. While in Estonian, we speak a logical language and we say things identically to the written form. ;)

In Finnish, a t is always a t. Its no different in the words tina or latina. No distinction is made. It would seem, that Estonians need two letters for the same consonant. :P

[Äike]

In Finnish, a t is always a t.

No it isn't. The pronunciation depends if you place it next to vocals or next to consonants. As a native speaker of Finnish, you probably do not notice it.


Its no different in the words tina or latina. No distinction is made. It would seem, that Estonians need two letters for the same consonant. :P

The t in tina and latina is identical, didn't you read my post? Both are next to vocals.

But the pronunciation of the t depends on the word. In the word Itäkeskus, it turns into something similar to a d. As it borders 2 vocals and no consonants.

But put a t next to a consonant and you actually pronounce it as a t.

When I was certain about my posts before, then I am completely certain now. Or are you saying that a person who speaks fluent Finnish, is wrong?

If you want to reply to my post, then reread it. :)

[Osweo]

You Uralian savages haven't progressed to the linguistic heights of the glottal stop, yet? ;)

It should be stated, that native speakers often don't notice things about their own language that a foreigner can. And literacy occasionally influences how we hear things.

Anyway, carry on!

[Aino]

No it isn't. The pronunciation depends if you place it next to vocals or next to consonants. As a native speaker of Finnish, you probably do not notice it.


In Finnish, the letter t is used to represent the voiceless alveolar plosive (phonetic notation [t]) and d is used for the voiced alveolar plosive (phonetic notation [d]). There is a clear difference between, for instance, the two words tina and dina. The first starts with an voiceless consonant and the second with a voiced consonant.

The letter t is always voiceless in Finnish regardless of whether it is between vowels or not. To you it may sound like it was pronounced differently when it is between two vowels. That is probably because in Estonian, a consonant between two vowels is pronounced as a double consonant whereas a consonant next to another consonant is single.

So you expect to hear a double consonant between two vowels in Finnish as well. However, in Finnish a single consonant is pronounced as a single consonant even if it is between vowels. Because this is impossible in Estonian and because Estonians use the letters b, d, and g to mark the voiceless single consonants [p], [t], and [k], you claim that Itäkeskus is Idäkeskus. Well, of course it is to you, because you use d to represent [t].

It is true that Finnish consonants are not pronounced as strongly as in many other languages, and voiceless consonants are not aspirated. So a Finnish t might be confused for a d if you are not used to hearing the language. But if you compare the voiceless-voiced pairs of consonants, you will hear the difference between them.

[Äike]

In Finnish, the letter t is used to represent the voiceless alveolar plosive (phonetic notation [t]) and d is used for the voiced alveolar plosive (phonetic notation [d]). There is a clear difference between, for instance, the two words tina and dina. The first starts with an voiceless consonant and the second with a voiced consonant.

The letter t is always voiceless in Finnish regardless of whether it is between vowels or not. To you it probably sounds like it is pronounced differently when it is between two vowels. That is probably because in Estonian, a consonant between two vowels is pronounced as a double consonant whereas a consonant next to another consonant is single.

So you expect to hear a double consonant between two vowels in Finnish as well. However, in Finnish a single consonant is pronounced as a single consonant even if it is between vowels. Because this is impossible in Estonian and because Estonians use the letters b, d, and g to mark the voiceless single consonants [p], [t], and [g], you claim that Itäkeskus is Idäkeskus. Well, of course it is to you, because you use d to represent [t].

It is true that Finnish consonants are not pronounced as strongly as in many other languages, and voiceless consonants are not aspirated. So a Finnish t might be confused for a d if you are not used to hearing the language. But if you compare the voiceless-voiced pairs of consonants, you will hear the difference between them.

A Finnish "t" in the word "Itäkeskus" isn't exactly a "d", but more like something between "t" and "d".

Our t is a normal t, while the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes with the word(either next to vowels(between d and t) or consonants(pronounced like a proper t)). Double consonants : tt, not t.

A person who speaks fluent Finnish, said to me that the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes, depending what letters(either vowels or consonants) are next to it.

Yesterday I wasn't certain about anything, but after doing further research I am quite certain that I am correct. As Osweo said, you Finns do not notice this change in the pronunciation of your t. Next to consonants = t, next to vowels = something between d and t.

[Aino]

A Finnish "t" in the word "Itäkeskus" isn't exactly a "d", but more like something between "t" and "d".

Our t is a normal t, while the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes with the word(either next to vowels(between d and t) or consonants(pronounced like a proper t)). Double consonants : tt, not t.

A person who speaks fluent Finnish, said to me that the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes, depending what letters(either vowels or consonants) are next to it.

Yesterday I wasn't certain about anything, but after doing further research I am quite certain that I am correct. As Osweo said, you Finns do not notice this change in the pronunciation of your t. Next to consonants = t, next to vowels = something between d and t.

There really isn't such a difference.

Also, that is not what caused the confusion in this thread. The confusion stems from three differences between Finnish and Estonian. First, the Estonian language lacks the voiced consonants [b], [d], and [g]. Second, Estonians use the letters b, d, and g to represent the voiceless consonants [p], [t], and [k]. Third, Estonians use the single letters p, t, and k to represent the long consonants [pp], [tt], [kk].

[EWtt]

You Uralian savages haven't progressed to the linguistic heights of the glottal stop, yet? ;)

South Estonian uses the glottal stop, but mostly in case of word endings (the the plural ending -d becomes the glottal stop in our Southern dialects). Actually, I was a bit surprised when I first heard Brits using this sound. :P

[The Ripper]

A Finnish "t" in the word "Itäkeskus" isn't exactly a "d", but more like something between "t" and "d".

Our t is a normal t, while the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes with the word(either next to vowels(between d and t) or consonants(pronounced like a proper t)). Double consonants : tt, not t.

A person who speaks fluent Finnish, said to me that the pronunciation of the Finnish t changes, depending what letters(either vowels or consonants) are next to it.

Yesterday I wasn't certain about anything, but after doing further research I am quite certain that I am correct. As Osweo said, you Finns do not notice this change in the pronunciation of your t. Next to consonants = t, next to vowels = something between d and t.

Listen to Aino, dear boy. You're just being a Jääräpää. ;)

[Talvi]

There really isn't such a difference.

Also, that is not what caused the confusion in this thread. The confusion stems from three differences between Finnish and Estonian. First, the Estonian language lacks the voiced consonants , [d], and [g]. Second, Estonians use the letters b, d, and g to represent the voiceless consonants [p], [t], and [k]. [B]Third, Estonians use the single letters p, t, and k to represent the long consonants [pp], [tt], [kk].

I dont think so. This only happens in rare cases...
p, t ,k represent p, t, k in most cases. They are called the short consonants. (lühike)
pp tt kk represent pp tt kk (called long or pikk)AND ppp ttt kkk (called overlong or ülipikk) depending on the grammar.


aaaaaand for example i can use the normal Estonian K in the English word fork.. but if I try to put the Finnish K there, it wouldnt fit. Like in Turku. Ultimately, it does sound like Turgu.

[Äike]

There really isn't such a difference.

Yes there is.


Also, that is not what caused the confusion in this thread. The confusion stems from three differences between Finnish and Estonian. First, the Estonian language lacks the voiced consonants , [d], and [g].

No, we do not lack them, we have them. Like the name Grete, we do not say Krete, we say Grete.


Second, Estonians use the letters b, d, and g to represent the voiceless consonants [p], [t], and [k].

No we don't. I do not even have an idea where you got an idea like that.

I think it would be very funny if someone said "nemat" instead of "nemad". "Nemad" means "they".


Third, Estonians use the single letters p, t, and k to represent the long consonants [pp], [tt], [kk].

No we don't.


Listen to Aino, dear boy. You're just being a Jäär[B]äpää. ;)

I do not listen to anyone, if I have recently found out that I am completely correct. I wasn't a Jääräpää in the start of this thread, but now I am, because I know that I am right.


One question to both of you, have you heard Estonian being spoken and if you have, then how often do you hear it being spoken? I usually make some semi-long trips to Finland at least once a year and I hear Finnish being spoken every weekend.

The more this thread goes on, the more confusing it gets. If Estonians actually spoke in the way that Aino pointed out, then it would sound quite different.

[The Ripper]

One question to both of you, have you heard Estonian being spoken and if you have, then how often do you hear it being spoken? I usually make some semi-long trips to Finland at least once a year and I hear Finnish being spoken every weekend.

I hear Estonian spoken pretty much every day. But Finnish I speak every day and I know how it sounds. Jäärä.

[Äike]

I hear Estonian spoken pretty much every day. But Finnish I speak every day and I know how it sounds. Jäärä.

You may know how Finnish sounds, but you agree with b, d and g not existing in the Estonian language and p, t and k being pp, tt and kk, then you do not know how Estonian sounds like.

Both I and Talvi have pointed out that Aino is wrong.

[The Ripper]

You may know how Finnish sounds, but you agree with b, d and g not existing in the Estonian language and p, t and k being pp, tt and kk, then you do not know how Estonian sounds like.

Both I and Talvi have pointed out that Aino is wrong.

I won't argue with that. I'm just saying I know Finnish and a t is a t, rain or shine.

This whole conversation is rather pointless since it seems only Aino has the terminology and the knowledge to actually discuss the subject in an objective, rather than nationally subjective, manner.

[The Ripper]

Estonian pronunciation explained for Finns, with audio samples: http://yle.fi/naelkummi/aantaminen/index.html

[Äike]

EDIT:

I give up, Estonian is retarded and our d's, t's, g's k's, b's and p's are retarded. We should all start speaking Finnish.

I think that both of you should change your names to "jääräpää" and I should go back to being Karl. I am definitely not a jäärapää, when compared to the Finns. :D

[Talvi]

I won't argue with that. I'm just saying I know Finnish and a t is a t, rain or shine.

This whole conversation is rather pointless since it seems only Aino has the terminology and the knowledge to actually discuss the subject in an objective, rather than nationally subjective, manner.

Well apparently since she doesnt know that in linguistics the Estonian phonemes K P T represent short lengths not long ones.

And KK PP TT may represent both long ones and over long ones.
For example KAPP (long) KAPI (short) KAPPI (overlong like kapppi)

If K P T represented long phonemes as Aino pointed out then KK PP TT would start to represent overlong and longer than overlong ones.

Sadly, there is no "longer than overlong" lengths yet.

[The Ripper]

EDIT:

I give up, Estonian is retarded and our d's, t's, g's k's, b's and p's are retarded. We should all start speaking Finnish.

I think that both of you should change your names to "jääräpää" and I should go back to being Karl. I am definitely not a jäärapää, when compared to the Finns. :D

Both?

Anyway, its not really my fault if you have misconceptions about Finnish pronunciation. I've tried to explain, for some reason you won't believe me. :shrug:

[The Ripper]

Well apparently since she doesnt know that in linguistics the Estonian phonemes K P T represent short lengths not long ones.

And KK PP TT may represent both long ones and over long ones.
For example KAPP (long) KAPI (short) KAPPI (overlong like kapppi)

If K P T represented long phonemes as Aino pointed out then KK PP TT would start to represent overlong and longer than overlong ones.

Sadly, there is no "longer than overlong" lengths yet.

This (http://yle.fi/naelkummi/aantaminen/index.html) is how Finns are taught Estonian pronunciation:

B, D, G ääntyvät soinnittomina, ne vastaavat suomen äänteitä p, t, k.

= B, D, G are pronounced like Finnish p, t, k.

P, T, K äännetään sanan sisällä kahden lyhyen vokaalin välissä "puolitoistakertaisina"

= P, T, K when within a word between two short vowels, are pronounced as "one and a half," which I take is the same as your "long" consonant?

P, T, K äännetään pitkien vokaalien, diftongien ja soinnillisen konsonantin jäljessä kahtena.

= P, T, K when placed after long vowels, diftongs, voiced consonants (not sure if right term) are pronounced as "double," which I take is the same as your "over-long" consonants.

PP, TT, KK äännetään samalla tavalla kuin suomen kielessä.

= These are pronounced as they are in Finnish.

[Talvi]

This (http://yle.fi/naelkummi/aantaminen/index.html) is how Finns are taught Estonian pronunciation:

B, D, G ääntyvät soinnittomina, ne vastaavat suomen äänteitä p, t, k.

= B, D, G are pronounced like Finnish p, t, k.

P, T, K äännetään sanan sisällä kahden lyhyen vokaalin välissä "puolitoistakertaisina"

= P, T, K when within a word between two short vowels, are pronounced as "one and a half," which I take is the same as your "long" consonant?

P, T, K äännetään pitkien vokaalien, diftongien ja soinnillisen konsonantin jäljessä kahtena.

= P, T, K when placed after long vowels, diftongs, voiced consonants (not sure if right term) are pronounced as "double," which I take is the same as your "over-long" consonants.

PP, TT, KK äännetään samalla tavalla kuin suomen kielessä.

= These are pronounced as they are in Finnish.

No, I think thats impossible. You never get PPP or KKK (which is what overlong mostly is in consonants)out of just one P or K.

I think PP is not one and a half consonants, its 2.

I think it would be easier to understand if your examples had examples of words. And If I could record something and post it would also be quite convenient.

I would like to hear an example of Finnish TT PP KK because I always thought they were shorter than in Estonian.

[The Ripper]

No, I think thats impossible. You never get PPP or KKK (which is what overlong mostly is in consonants)out of just one P or K.

Then "double" just means "long".


I think PP is not one and a half consonants, its 2.

No one says its one and half, it says that its like it is in Finnish.


I think it would be easier to understand if your examples had examples of words. And If I could record something and post it would also be quite convenient.

I did post a link to google translate which has a "listen" function. But I can try to find something better.


I would like to hear an example of Finnish TT PP KK because I always thought they were shorter than in Estonian.

http://www.unilang.org/view.php?res=53

There are several words with different combinations of vowels and consonants.

[Talvi]

I listened to the stuff on the link and...
I think the reason why K and P like "kaupa" and "lampi" sound long is because of the grammar.
I dont know what it is... but its just like the KAPP KAPI KAPPI thing. LAMP LAMBI LAMPI
Whatever it is something in the last word becomes overlong. Also like PILV PILVI PILVI something between the "LV" is overlong....

[Äike]

Both?

Anyway, its not really my fault if you have misconceptions about Finnish pronunciation. I've tried to explain, for some reason you won't believe me. :shrug:

Misconceptions? If we actually spoke Estonian like you and Aino think, then we would say Inkrit instead of Ingrid.

Estonian has 3 vowel lengths, if any language is lacking something, then it isn't Estonian. We have everything from d to tt.

[The Ripper]

Misconceptions? If we actually spoke Estonian like you and Aino think, then we would say Inkrit instead of Ingrid.

Estonian has 3 vowel lengths, if any language is lacking something, then it isn't Estonian. We have everything from d to tt.

I was speaking about Finnish. I won't be as arrogant as to dictate to you how you speak your own language. ;)

[Aino]

I dont think so. This only happens in rare cases...
p, t ,k represent p, t, k in most cases. They are called the short consonants. (lühike)
pp tt kk represent pp tt kk (called long or pikk)AND ppp ttt kkk (called overlong or ülipikk) depending on the grammar.


Whether rare or not, this is what caused Jäärä's confusion with the word Itäkeskus. The word is pronounced in Finnish. However, having only seen it written, Jäärä pronounced it [it:ækeskus], that is, with a long [t] in the middle. See Jäärä's first post in this thread.

In Estonian, the word Itäkeskus would have to be written [I]Idäkeskus for it to be pronounced as [itækeskus].

Another example from the first page of this thread was Riippumatto. In Finnish, it is pronounced [riippumatto] (the correct way would be the use : for long sounds, but the forum software turns certain combinations into smileys). In Estonian, Jäärä would write it <Riipumatto>. Or did I misunderstand you, Jäärä?


Yes there is.

At the very most, there can be small allophonic variation. They are still the same phonemes.


No, we do not lack them, we have them. Like the name Grete, we do not say Krete, we say Grete.

, [d], and [g] are borrowed phonemes in Estonian. That is, they are found only in foreign loan words.

Check any source for Estonian phonemes if you don't believe me.

See, for instance, the attached table from Wikipedia. As you can see, the voiced plosives , [d], and [g] are missing from the table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language

From another source:


It should be noted that /f/ and /S/ are not fully integrated into the Estonian phonemic system; they are borrowed phonemes, and the words in which they occur are felt to be foreign, rather like the [x] used by some English speakers in Bach. [B]Lumme mentioned several other borrowed phonemes, such as [b,d,g] but they seem to be of even more marginal status than /f/ and /S/, so I have not included them here.

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/hayes/103/SampleTermPaperEstonian.pdf

Here is one more quote from Wikipedia:


There is one series of stops, unvoiced unaspirated, with three phonemic lengths, written ‹b d g›, ‹p t k› and ‹pp tt kk›.

As you can see here, your ‹b d g› are unvoiced. That means they are pronounced [p t k]. Furthermore, ‹b d g› are short, ‹p t k› are long, and ‹pp tt kk› are overlong.

How was I wrong in anything I wrote before?


No we don't. I do not even have an idea where you got an idea like that.

I think it would be very funny if someone said "nemat" instead of "nemad". "Nemad" means "they".

Don't be silly. Nemad is pronounced [nemat]. The [t] in the end is very similar to how the Finnish letter t is pronounced.


No we don't.

Then why did you pronounce Itäkeskus as [it:ækeskus], that is, with a long [t]?


[B]I do not listen to anyone, if I have recently found out that I am completely correct. I wasn't a Jääräpää in the start of this thread, but now I am, because I know that I am right.

Yes, I have noticed that.


You may know how Finnish sounds, but you agree with b, d and g not existing in the Estonian language and p, t and k being pp, tt and kk, then you do not know how Estonian sounds like.

Both I and Talvi have pointed out that Aino is wrong.

You haven't pointed out anything.

[Talvi]

I think the confusion comes from the fact that in schools we are taught something called välted where KK PP TT represent long or overlong consonants. Logically this would leave the short ones K P T.

The example with G and Grete was a bad one. No Estonian word can begin with G B D. And I think names like Grete and Krete, Kerli and Gerli are pronounced the same.

As I know have found out that g b d indeed are considered voiceless and in words like "õde" or "magama" the B and G are softer versions of K, T .. but for some reason they are considered allophones. However if it was written "õte" or "makama" it would be pronounced entirely differently. So Im not sure whats up with that funky romanization.