English Anglo-Saxon vs Celtic DNA

[Gwydion]

What does the most recent data have to say in regards to the aged old question of how Celtic vs. Germanic England is? Going by Y-DNA paternal lineages, is England more Celtic or Anglo-Saxon? If we exclude I and R1a from the equation, which is more predominant in England, P312/L21/U106/DF27 vs. U106?

[Sikeliot]

More Celtic/native British but the east of England has more Germanic than the west.

[Bellbeaking]

More Celtic/native British but the east of England has more Germanic than the west.

Why stick to this simplistic dichotomy, the Bell beakers that came from the netherlands where somewhat Nordic in their % steppe DNA, this is population most of British ancestry is from. Celtic migrations possibly came later. It doesn't make any sense to say the British are Celtic.

[JohnSmith]

I am curious to how Keltic Nordids are related to Dinarics. They both look somewhat similar but live in different places generally.

[Dacul]

R1B-U106 peaks in the area where was the center of Hallstat Celts Culture.
So actually is possible that Saxons were rather Hallstat Celts mixed with Germanics.
And Angles were just the rulling class and elite warriors.
So England as genetics seems mixture of Hallstat Celts with Brittonic Celts mostly.

[Teucer]

Did the Vikings leave any noticeable influence?

If they did, it would also been in the east of England and Scotland. Maybe some of the Germanic is not solely Saxon?

[unknown user]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects

[unknown user]

R1B-U106 peaks in the area where was the center of Hallstat Celts Culture.
So actually is possible that Saxons were rather Hallstat Celts mixed with Germanics.
And Angles were just the rulling class and elite warriors.
So England as genetics seems mixture of Hallstat Celts with Brittonic Celts mostly.

Но кто сказал что у саксов был R-U106? Единственный извеcтный образец англосакса из северной Англии — I1

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

————————————————————

Google Translate:

But who said that the Saxons had R-U106? The only known example of Anglo-Saxon from northern England - I1

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

[Token]

Around 30% Germanic, the rest is mostly Celtic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408#s1
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

[Creoda]

Around 30% Germanic, the rest is mostly Celtic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408#s1
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.
What makes you say 30% Germanic when your quote says 38% Anglo-Saxon on average for East England? (East England is part of the SE England cluster that makes up the majority of the English population in the POBI study). I believe the same paper showed that West Yorkshire has more of a Germanic affinity than the South East.

[Dacul]

Saxons are not Germanic, they are very close to the French people on autosomal testing.
They are Celto-Germanic people.
Original Saxons should have been even more Keltic-shifted.
In NW Germany were Bell Beaker Kelts mixed to Hallstat Kelts and in South Germany, more Hallstat Kelts.
Hallstat Nordid is Hallstat Kelts race, not Germanic race.
Lol, Hallstat is the center of the Hallstat Kelts culture.
AngloSaxon race is a Keltic race, not a Germanic one.
AngloSaxon race is between Hallstat Nordid and Keltic Nordid races.
Some mix of these 2 races of Keltic people.

[Bellbeaking]

Around 30% Germanic, the rest is mostly Celtic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408#s1
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

But the Dutch Bell beakers (majority of UK ancestry) where not celtic where they?

[Creoda]

But the Dutch Bell beakers (majority of UK ancestry) where not celtic where they?
Culturally 'Celtic' since the Iron Age at least, genetically closer to Germanics than Continental Celts.

[Dna8]

in the popular consciousness it seems to be a tired, old Anglo/Saxon/Celtic model

[Norb]

30% YDNA is Germanic overall in England? Do you have any data for solely Anglo-Saxon YDNA in England?

[Grace O'Malley]

I'm very close to the Anglo-Saxons on G25 despite being a Celt. Looking at genetics the Insular Celts appear to have been quite close to populations like Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Germanics anyway. These are the populations I'm closest to and I've left the Anglo-Saxon group in there and a couple of the single Anglo-Saxons in there to show this. My no 1 closest is actually to an Anglo-Saxon. It's all very odd.:confused: Moderns bolded and ancients in blue.

England_Anglo-Saxon HS2-I0159 1.81
Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.874
Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.876
England_Anglo-Saxon_Averaged Averaged 1.93
Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.964
Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.977
Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.98
England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.146
English_Averaged Averaged 2.206
Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ7 CE:505 2.211
Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale_Averaged Averaged 2.33
Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.345
England_Anglo-Saxon NO3423 CE:780 2.356
Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.362
English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.454
Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.459
Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.494
England_IA_Averaged Averaged 2.553
Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.659
Germany_Medieval_Averaged Averaged 3.049
Unetice_Averaged Averaged 3.078
Beaker_Britain_Averaged Averaged 3.117
Netherlands_BA_Averaged Averaged 3.271
German_Averaged Averaged 3.333
Sweden_Viking_Age_Averaged Averaged 3.797
Belgian_Averaged Averaged 4.07

[Norb]

I'm very close to the Anglo-Saxons on G25 despite being a Celt. Looking at genetics the Insular Celts appear to have been quite close to populations like Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Germanics anyway. These are the populations I'm closest to and I've left the Anglo-Saxon group in there and a couple of the single Anglo-Saxons in there to show this. My no 1 closest is actually to an Anglo-Saxon. It's all very odd.:confused: Moderns bolded and ancients in blue.

England_Anglo-Saxon HS2-I0159 1.81
Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.874
Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.876
England_Anglo-Saxon_Averaged Averaged 1.93
Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.964
Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.977
Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.98
England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.146
English_Averaged Averaged 2.206
Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ7 CE:505 2.211
Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale_Averaged Averaged 2.33
Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.345
England_Anglo-Saxon NO3423 CE:780 2.356
Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.362
English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.454
Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.459
Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.494
England_IA_Averaged Averaged 2.553
Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.659
Germany_Medieval_Averaged Averaged 3.049
Unetice_Averaged Averaged 3.078
Beaker_Britain_Averaged Averaged 3.117
Netherlands_BA_Averaged Averaged 3.271
German_Averaged Averaged 3.333
Sweden_Viking_Age_Averaged Averaged 3.797
Belgian_Averaged Averaged 4.07

how accurate is this calc?

[Grace O'Malley]

Here are the modern populations that are closest to the Anglo-Saxons using G25

1 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.357
2 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.447
6 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.828
9 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.836
10 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.842
11 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.853
22 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 2.01
23 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.018
32 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.073
35 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average English_Averaged Averaged 2.112
66 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.394
209 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average German_Averaged Averaged 3.113
447 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Belgian_Averaged Averaged 4.055
484 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average German_East_Averaged Averaged 4.188
552 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Czech_Averaged Averaged 4.498
568 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Austrian_Averaged Averaged 4.547
626 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average French_East_Averaged Averaged 4.878
683 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Hungarian_Averaged Averaged 5.167
684 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average French_Averaged Averaged 5.177
716 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 5.387
815 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Slovenian_Averaged Averaged 5.899
851 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Polish_Averaged Averaged 6.082
983 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Moldovan_Averaged Averaged 6.833
1006 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Bosnian_Averaged Averaged 6.946
1017 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Ukrainian_Averaged Averaged 7.012
1046 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Finnish_Averaged Averaged 7.241
1049 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Russian_Orel_Averaged Averaged 7.264
1059 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Russian_Voronez_Averaged Averaged 7.322
1072 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Russian_Kursk_Averaged Averaged 7.378
1100 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Russian_Smolensk_Averaged Averaged 7.571
1118 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Russian_Tver_Averaged Averaged 7.673
1124 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Belarusian_Averaged Averaged 7.699
1143 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Estonian_Averaged Averaged 7.83
1162 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average Serbian_Averaged Averaged 7.94
1181 England_Anglo-Saxon:Average French_South_Averaged Averaged 8.05

Interesting results above.

[Grace O'Malley]

how accurate is this calc?

Everyone's using it now as you can compare to all these ancients. It's by Davidski and he uses only scientific samples in this. I'd ask Token as he's more versed in it than me.

If you get your coordinates from David of Eurogenes you can use all the calcs. It's the most fun a genetic dna geek can have. :) It's also updated as new samples are available and Gedmatch is redundant now.

[Creoda]

I'm very close to the Anglo-Saxons on G25 despite being a Celt. Looking at genetics the Insular Celts appear to have been quite close to populations like Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Germanics anyway. These are the populations I'm closest to and I've left the Anglo-Saxon group in there and a couple of the single Anglo-Saxons in there to show this. My no 1 closest is actually to an Anglo-Saxon. It's all very odd.:confused: Moderns bolded and ancients in blue.

England_Anglo-Saxon HS2-I0159 1.81
Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.874
Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.876
England_Anglo-Saxon_Averaged Averaged 1.93
Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.964
Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.977
Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.98
England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.146
English_Averaged Averaged 2.206
Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ7 CE:505 2.211
Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale_Averaged Averaged 2.33
Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 2.345
England_Anglo-Saxon NO3423 CE:780 2.356
Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.362
English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.454
Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.459
Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.494
England_IA_Averaged Averaged 2.553
Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.659
Germany_Medieval_Averaged Averaged 3.049
Unetice_Averaged Averaged 3.078
Beaker_Britain_Averaged Averaged 3.117
Netherlands_BA_Averaged Averaged 3.271
German_Averaged Averaged 3.333
Sweden_Viking_Age_Averaged Averaged 3.797
Belgian_Averaged Averaged 4.07
My best fits (limited to 25)

1 Scottish Scottish26 1.7
2 Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.722
3 Orcadian HGDP00799 1.814
4 Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.848
5 England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 1.907
6 Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.968
7 England_IA I0160 2.031
8 Scotland_LBA I2860 BCE:892 2.047
9 Orcadian HGDP00798 2.055
10 Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.084
11 English_Averaged Averaged 2.087
12 English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.09
13 Irish Irish58 2.121
14 English_Cornwall HG00252 2.127
15 Scottish Scottish22 2.175
16 Custom AGUser_firemonkey 2.178
17 Scottish Scottish19 2.2
18 English HG02215 2.204
19 Custom AGUser_dsm 2.287
20 Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 2.323
21 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ4 CE:505 2.36
22 Irish Irish34 2.365
23 Custom AGUser_ais 2.366
24 Scottish Scottish24 2.37
25 Irish Irish51 2.382

[Creoda]

My best fits (limited to 25)

1 Scottish Scottish26 1.7
2 Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.722
3 Orcadian HGDP00799 1.814
4 Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.848
5 England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 1.907
6 Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.968
7 England_IA I0160 2.031
8 Scotland_LBA I2860 BCE:892 2.047
9 Orcadian HGDP00798 2.055
10 Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.084
11 English_Averaged Averaged 2.087
12 English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.09
13 Irish Irish58 2.121
14 English_Cornwall HG00252 2.127
15 Scottish Scottish22 2.175
16 Custom AGUser_firemonkey 2.178
17 Scottish Scottish19 2.2
18 English HG02215 2.204
19 Custom AGUser_dsm 2.287
20 Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 2.323
21 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ4 CE:505 2.36
22 Irish Irish34 2.365
23 Custom AGUser_ais 2.366
24 Scottish Scottish24 2.37
25 Irish Irish51 2.382
My mother's by comparison

1 England_IA_Averaged Averaged 1.502
2 English_Cornwall HG00255 1.755
3 Welsh_Averaged Averaged 1.974
4 Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.003
5 England_Anglo-Saxon_Averaged Averaged 2.063
6 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ11 CE:505 2.077
7 Beaker_Czech_Averaged Averaged 2.098
8 Scottish_Averaged Averaged 2.106
9 Custom AGUser_Mitchell1893 2.114
10 English_Averaged Averaged 2.114
11 Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 2.167
12 Poprad_Medieval DA119 CE:387 2.168
13 Poprad_Medieval_Averaged Averaged 2.168
14 Custom AGUser_ais 2.172
15 Irish_Averaged Averaged 2.204
16 Welsh WAL004 2.215
17 Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.219
18 England_Anglo-Saxon O4-I0777 2.241
19 Orcadian HGDP00802 2.241
20 Scotland_MBA_Averaged Averaged 2.252
21 England_Roman 6DT22 2.254
22 Custom AGUser_finn_dad 2.259
23 Welsh WAL001 2.26
24 England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.266
25 English_Cornwall HG00259 2.29

G25 needs a lot more samples, both modern and ancient.

[Bellbeaking]

Around 30% Germanic, the rest is mostly Celtic.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408#s1
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

I doubt most Germans are more than 30% Germanic

[Token]

I doubt most Germans are more than 30% Germanic

South Germans might be around 40% like East Anglians, North Germans probaby close to 100%. Just wild guesses until we get local samples.

[celticdragongod]

Why stick to this simplistic dichotomy, the Bell beakers that came from the netherlands where somewhat Nordic in their % steppe DNA, this is population most of British ancestry is from. Celtic migrations possibly came later. It doesn't make any sense to say the British are Celtic.

Many people in western Britain - particularly the Scottish Highlands - are related to the Irish so it makes sense to call these people Celtic.

[Peterski]

Why stick to this simplistic dichotomy, the Bell beakers that came from the netherlands where somewhat Nordic in their % steppe DNA, this is population most of British ancestry is from. Celtic migrations possibly came later. It doesn't make any sense to say the British are Celtic.

Well, the Early Anglo-Saxons were probably also mostly descended from Bell Beakers and not from Proto-Germanic people.

According to most linguists, Proto-Germanic language was closely related to Proto-Balto-Slavic. But genetics does not show it. Maybe because modern Germanic-speakers are descended from Bell Beakers who were only Germanized linguistically but without much admixture.

I doubt we can talk about "Germanic DNA" or "Celtic DNA" - these are just language families and not distinct genetic groups.

Original Pre-Proto-Germanic speakers were probably more closely genetically related to Balto-Slavs than to Bell Beakers.

[firemonkey]

My best fits.

Unscaled

Input Group Name Details Fit
1 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 0.97
2 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Custom AGUser_firemonkey_father 1.028
3 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.106
4 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00799 1.196
5 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.213
6 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 1.261
7 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English_Averaged Averaged 1.268
8 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English HG01789 1.27
9 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 1.281
10 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 1.282
11 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey England_MBA_Averaged Averaged 1.297
12 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish1 1.328
13 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.331
14 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00800 1.336
15 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English HG02215 1.352
16 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish8 1.354
17 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00798 1.355
18 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Custom AGUser_Molfish 1.359
19 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey England_MBA I7573 BCE:1574 1.36
20 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey England_Anglo-Saxon NO3423 CE:780 1.363
21 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English_Cornwall HG00259 1.396
22 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Irish Irish41 1.399
23 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish19 1.401
24 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Icelandic NA15756 1.418
25 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Irish Irish52 1.421


Scaled


1 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 1.447
2 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.614
3 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English HG01789 1.778
4 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.816
5 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00800 1.941
6 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English_Averaged Averaged 1.945
7 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00799 1.972
8 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English HG02215 1.975
9 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scotland_LBA_Averaged Averaged 2.008
10 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.031
11 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey England_Roman_Averaged Averaged 2.05
12 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish21 2.055
13 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Custom AGUser_firemonkey_father 2.083
14 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00797 2.112
15 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Norwegian NOR101 2.116
16 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 2.118
17 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish1 2.126
18 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Icelandic NA15756 2.141
19 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish26 2.175
20 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Custom AGUser_Molfish 2.178
21 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Scottish Scottish22 2.181
22 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00796 2.182
23 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Dutch_Averaged Averaged 2.199
24 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Irish Irish39 2.203
25 Custom:AGUser_firemonkey Orcadian HGDP00803 2.204

[Ayetooey]

Anglo-Saxon.

[Norb]

bump