Optimal Polish Borders After WW2

[Peterski]

Here is my proposition of optimal Polish borders after WW2 (alternate history).

Compared to present-day borders of Poland, here is what I would change:

1. From Ukraine to Poland:

From the meander of the San River near settlement Żurawin (gmina Lutowiska, Zakole Nature Reserve), along the southern edge of the forest north of Boberka, up to Limna (Turka Raion) inclusive - while Berezhok stays in Ukraine. From Limna the border goes along the Dniester River up to Rozvadiv (Mykolaiv Raion), inclusive. Then between Rozvadiv and Veryn (excl.) and along the forest's edge up to Stare Selo (Pustomyty Raion). Villages Krupske, Rozdil, Novyi Rozdil, Hranky-Kuty, Horishnje, Borynychi, Borusiv, Bryntsi-Zahirni, Berezyna, Sukhodil, Lopushna and Selysko (Peremyshliany Raion) and Budkiv (Pustomyty Raion), located to the south and east of this forest, stay in Ukraine. Stare Selo with ruins of the Ostrogski family castle to Poland (border along the forest edge to the east of the village). Vidnyky stay in Ukraine, border along the forest to the north of "Cossack Yard" and along the road H09, Sholomyn in Ukraine, Davydiv in Poland. Then again along the forest: Honchary and Vynnychky in Ukraine, Sosnivka in Poland. Volytsya, Vynnyky, Pidbirtsi and Kamianopil in Poland. From here the border goes along the Poltva River up to its outlet to the Bug River. Then along the Bug River up to the modern border (Gołębie, county Hrubieszów). In total Polands gets ca. 9.159 km2 (including Lviv):

https://i.imgur.com/fIEpeTQ.png

^^^
This border mainly goes along rivers (Dniestr/Dniester, Pełtew/Poltva and Bug):

http://www.geografia24.eu/index.php?strona=120_mapa_polski

https://i.imgur.com/WNGxSy5.png

We also can't ignore the infrastructure. With my version of the border, Poland keeps all 3 railway lines leading to the city of Lwow from the west (1. Sanok > Sambor > Lwow, 2. Przemysl > Lwow, 3. Zwierzyniec > Rawa Ruska > Lwow):

https://i.imgur.com/c0TMytn.png

2. From Belarus to Poland:

The border should go along the Neman River and then along the Świsłocz River, entire Augustów Canal to Poland. Grodno becomes a border city (divided into Belarusian and Polish parts along the Neman River). In total Poland gets ca. 1.295 km2:

https://i.imgur.com/WW0O5m0g.png

3. From Lower Silesia to Germany and Czechia:

In Lower Silesia the border would go along the Oder River and then along the Eastern Neisse (Nysa Kłodzka), instead of the Lusatian Neisse (Nysa Łużycka). Poland loses ca. 20.678 km2 of land to Germany and Czechia (the area should be divided between them, surely Kladsko Land should go to Czechia). Wrocław/Breslau would be a border city, split by the Oder River (river islands to Poland):

https://i.imgur.com/efgEeGG.png

^^^ This area was the most densely populated part of territories lost by Germany after WW2:

Population density in 1916: http://s16.postimg.cc/v64o679pv/1916_zaludnienie.png

http://s16.postimg.cc/v64o679pv/1916_zaludnienie.png

4. From Pomerania to Germany:

In Pomerania (Pomorze Zachodnie, Hinterpommern) the border would go strictly along the West Oder and Swine Rivers, so the city of Szczecin (Stettin) and all of the island Usedom would stay in Germany, while the islands of Wolin and Krasibór go to Poland. In total this area is ca. 683 km2 (ca. 643 km2 in mainland areas west of the Oder including Szczecin + part of the island of Usedom ca. 40 km2):

https://i.imgur.com/QCwI9Pw.png

5. From East Prussia to Poland:

East Prussia would be divided between Poland and Lithuania with the border along the Pregolya (Pregel) and Pissa Rivers, up to Gusev (Gumbinnen - the town to Lithuania). Entire Vistula Spit to Poland. From Gumbinnen, the border goes southward to the Romincka Forest (Rominter Heide), then through the forest to Lake Marinowo and further to Lake Vištytis. Then along the present-day Lithuanian border up to Bolcie. The city of Konigsberg (Królewiec) would be divided between Poland and Lithuania along the Pregel River (river islands to Poland). The railway line Gołdap-Darkiejmy-Wystruć-Welawa-Lwowiany-Królewiec to Poland. In total Poland would get ca. 4.951 km2 of what is now Kaliningrad Oblast (the rest to Lithuania):

https://i.imgur.com/7cuRMng.png

^^^ That variant of the border was actually taken into consideration in real history:

http://historia-wyzynaelblaska.pl/granica-polsko-radziecka-w-b.-prusach-wschodnich.html

https://i.imgur.com/z1hTMF8.png

6. From Czechia and Slovakia to Poland:

Poland would get back Zaolzie and other small border areas that were Polish in 1938-39: ca. 1.086 km2.

==========

All in all, this is how this scenario would look like compared to actual history, see the map posted below:

The area of Poland would be 312.679 km2 (present-day) + 16.491 km2 - 21.361 km2 = 307.809 km2.

https://i.imgur.com/TOfzIGr.png

[Peterski]

This area for example was lost by Poland after 1951, Stalin wanted it for the USSR after discovering deposits of coal there:

https://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2011/10/31/drobna-korekta-graniczna-ktora-kosztowala-nas-dziesiatki-miliardow-dolarow/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_territorial_exchange

https://s.ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/uploads/2011/10/zmiana-granic-1951-600x296.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7TfF21W.png

[Veslan]

There was also an idea of Poland annecting Lusatia, sadly it didn't happen.

[Ülev]

http://www.gazetalubuska.pl/wiadomosci/zagan/art/7805711,niepodlegle-ksiestwo-zaganskie,id,t.html


Według niektórych historyków południem naszego województwa nie włada Polska ale... potomkowie francuskiego księcia Paul Louis Maria Archambault Boson Talleyrand-Périgord. Zgodnie z oficjalnymi informacjami księstwo przestało istnieć w 1935, gdy władze III Rzeszy rozprawiły się z wszelkimi arystokratycznymi księstewkani. Jednak tutaj była pewna słabość. To była własność obywatela Francji. Dlatego nawet tuż przed końcem II wojny światowej, w 1944 roku, ludzie Hitlera negocjowali warunki kupna księstwa, gdyż było bardziej lennem niż własnością.




According to some historians, the south of Lubuskie is not ruled by Poland but ... descendants of the French prince Paul Louis Maria Archambault Boson Talleyrand-Périgord. According to official information, the duchy ceased to exist in 1935, when the authorities of the Third Reich cracked down on all aristocratic princesses. However, there was a weakness here. It was the property of a French citizen. Therefore, even shortly before the end of World War II, in 1944, Hitler's surroundings negotiated the conditions for buying the duchy, because it was more fief than property.

[Peterski]

Lines of Botha and Barthelemy are also good alternative borders with Ukraine (similar to my line anyway):

https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/7563.html

https://i.imgur.com/6OJ6MfI.png

There is also the so called "Curzon Line B" which also gas Lwow on the Polish side, it is line D in this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Linie_A-F_pol.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Linie_A-F_pol.png

Another version of the eastern border is this, it is usually called "Sikorski Line" (blue):

http://46bah7dkfu-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mapa-1939-1945.gif


There was also an idea of Poland annecting Lusatia, sadly it didn't happen.

Check my thread about Lusatia: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245687-Proposals-for-Free-Lusatia-after-WW2

[Peterski]

Some advantages of these borders that I suggested: easily defensible (mostly along major rivers) secure access to the Baltic Sea, include core Polish city in the east (Lwow), stay away from most of German Lower Silesia. One minus is that Poles in Northern Belarus and Southern Lithuania are not included. But such border would have a very weird shape. That area could become an independent Polish-speaking state instead, there were such attempts after the Cold War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National-Territorial_Region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Central_Lithuania

Edit:


Poland should have kept its 1939 borders, including Zaolzie, after the war.

It was unrealistic for Poland to keep all of its pre-1939 territories. But if Poland is supposed to expand so much into East Slavic lands, then why not all the way to the Black Sea coast? In case if Ukraine falls apart, getting this area would be cool:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224860-How-would-you-partition-Ukraine&p=4722144&viewfull=1#post4722144

But let's go back to 1945:

Getting more of Galicia was possible, the issue of the city of Lwow (whether Poland should keep it or not) was left unsolved after the Tehran Conference of 1943, it was settled only later at Potsdam and at Yalta. The shifting of Poland's borders to the West was also inevitable, Russians planned that since 1914 (Sazanov's Plan, later Alexander Kolchak had a similar idea):

Sazanov's Plan: https://pre00.deviantart.net/3779/th/pre/f/2017/012/d/9/sazonov_plan__russian_empire__by_diamond1995-dav5g6u.png

https://i.imgur.com/M8nZaiC.jpg

"The Map of Future Europe" was inspired by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Sazanov and made by I. P. Alekseyev before November 1914. Here is how Poland (in a union with Russia) would have looked like, according to that map:

http://rcin.org.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=130&from=pubstats

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/130/WA51_228_r2008-t218_Prac-Geogr.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/uKlzsaW.png

Here is a more readable, English version of that map:

https://i.imgur.com/kK3qJTe.png

Check also: https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/9928.html

The Nazis had to give land to Poland as a compensation for starting WW2 and for Polish territorial losses in the east. But in my proposal, Poland gets 85,000 km2 of German territory (instead of 101,000 km2 as in real history).

=====

Edit:

Stare Sioło near Lwow with ruins of Polish castle:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgGcoPizqJA

[ЛыSSый]

little bro, how about add moravia as autonomy?

[Bobby Martnen]

Poland should have kept its 1939 borders, including Zaolzie, after the war.

[ЛыSSый]

fixed


Poland should have kept its 1913 borders, including russia.

[Bobby Martnen]

fixed

You mean Poland should have annexed Russia?

[ЛыSSый]

fixed

You mean privislje should have be reunited with Russia?

[Peterski]

You mean Poland should have annexed Russia?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNsZFxXtxE

^^^ Some Polish guy in the comments section wrote:

"Only once in history Russia, Moscow, and its people were free. It was when Poland ruled there."

[ЛыSSый]

Someone in the comments section:

"Only once in history Russia, Moscow, and its inhabitants were free. It was when Poland ruled there."

ay, little bro, stop your butthurt, how my grandpha like to say "poland is just the buffer zone between russia and germany". join to us now and you get some germanian servants after drang nacht last sea. or continue be butthurting here.

[Ülev]

ay, little bro, stop your butthurt, how my grandpha like to say "poland is just the buffer zone between russia and germany". join to us now and you get some germanian servants after drang nacht last sea. or continue be butthurting here.

Lyssyi has his truth, for example all those -stans like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan or other Tajikistan benefited under the soviet, more independent countries in the Eastern Block were milked out of money by the USRR

[ЛыSSый]

Lyssyi has his truth, for example all those -stans like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan or other Tajikistan benefited under the soviet, more independent countries in the Eastern Block were milked out of money by the USRR

but poled were in another situation - ussr gave them money and force to work instead. maybe in this reason dozens millions of poles ran away in early 90s from poland - cause the didn't want bloody soviet money anymore

[Peterski]

Poland should have kept its 1939 borders, including Zaolzie, after the war.

Those borders were not defensible at all, we needed better protection against potential German invasion in WW3:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245917-Soviet-Invasion-of-Poland-1939&p=5163198&viewfull=1#post5163198


This was the best defensive line (Narew-Vistula-San) in case of German invasion:

https://i.imgur.com/dDkI6SQ.jpg

^^^ But how could we let them take all of Western Poland without a single shot?

[ЛыSSый]

Those borders were not defensible at all, we needed better protection against potential German invasion in WW3:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245917-Soviet-Invasion-of-Poland-1939&p=5163198&viewfull=1#post5163198

poland must return back all slavic lands in germany

[Peterski]

And here is my version of optimal Czech-German border after WW2:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246096-Optimal-Czech-German-border-after-WW2


In case of Czech-German border, the north-eastern part of Sudetenland (within the red frame, CZ) had to become Czech again after WW2, but north-western parts of it (DE) could stay German:

https://i.imgur.com/qYcwCyq.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Sudetenland_Reichsgau_1944.png

[Bobby Martnen]

Those borders were not defensible at all, we needed better protection against potential German invasion in WW3:


The borders don't need to be defensible if Germany is neutralized militarily. Just create an EU and UN like OTL, and Germany won't be able to try anything.