Classify these Griko speakers from Calabria

[Tacitus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KpQfZt2q8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87XJXVkWGeo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUa1AAtO4_I

Bonus question to our Greek members: How much Griko can you understand in these videos?

[Sikeliot]

They don't look different from other southern Italians.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The girl is half Griko half Sicilian.

[Voskos]

I watched the first and last video. In the first I understood almost everything of what she says, in the last one around 50-60%.

[Queen B]

Bonus question to our Greek members: How much Griko can you understand in these videos?
Wow. To be honest, I thought I wouldn't understand that much, but I do. I'd say that at least 70-80% of the words are easily recognizable, so you surely can get a drift of what is spoken.
F.e the last guy says that what's his name is, his village, and that he first went to one school and then to another , that he is with his wife 40 years, he has 2 kids, 1 grandkid, that he writes song and sings. Then he goes and says a song/lyrics.

[Voskos]

and second video- 80% is understandable for me.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Wow. To be honest, I thought I wouldn't understand that much, but I do. I'd say that at least 70-80% of the words are easily recognizable, so you surely can get a drift of what is spoken.
F.e the last guy says that what's his name is, his village, and that he first went to one school and then to another , that he is with his wife 40 years, he has 2 kids, 1 grandkid, that he writes song and sings. Then he goes and says a song/lyrics.

These are links with songs and popular literature in Salentine Griko, you can take a look if you want :)

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-dautore/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-popolare/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/i-canti/

[Queen B]

These are links with songs and popular literature in Salentine Griko, you can take a look if you want :)

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-dautore/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/la-letteratura/letteratura-popolare/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/i-canti/

Wow! Thanks ! That's so cool.
I'm not reading those 2
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/serenata-matinata/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/amore-segreto-krifi-agapi/
So amazing !

[Teucer]

Not the same as the Cypriot dialect, but they also use the 'tze' sound when saying 'kai'. The Mani also use this. Why is that?

[Tacitus]

Not the same as the Cypriot dialect, but they also use the 'tze' sound when saying 'kai'. The Mani also use this. Why is that?

A holdover from Ancient or Byzantine Greek? Like the Maniots, the Griko Calabresi are from a very isolated, mountainous area so perhaps some archaic features stayed with the language.

[Sikeliot]

A holdover from Ancient or Byzantine Greek? Like the Maniots, the Griko Calabresi are from a very isolated, mountainous area so perhaps some archaic features stayed with the language.

Calabrese Greek speakers are also genetically isolated, they form their own cluster. The odd part is, there is no evidence of them having a recent Greek origin at all (IBD sharing with Greece must be low).

[Teucer]

A holdover from Ancient or Byzantine Greek? Like the Maniots, the Griko Calabresi are from a very isolated, mountainous area so perhaps some archaic features stayed with the language.

When I watched more I noticed other similarities to Cypriot Greek too. The way they emphasise the accents of words is similar. Instead of saying TOra, which how the mainlanders say it, they say toRA, with the emphasis on the 'ah' part of the word which is how Cypriots say it. On the whole though they sound like they are speaking Greek with an Italian accent and it is both funny and cool at the same time.

Regarding the 'j' pronunciation of 'k', I honestly have no idea. It doesn't make sense. The mainlanders I knew told me the reason we use the 'j' sounds and the 'sh' sounds in Cypriot Greek is because of our time under the Arabs and the Ottomans but now I think that is nonsense.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Not the same as the Cypriot dialect, but they also use the 'tze' sound when saying 'kai'. The Mani also use this. Why is that?

Because they have preserved Doric characteristics, something like Tsakonian.

[Teucer]

Because they have preserved Doric characteristics, something like Tsakonian.

As far as I know, the Dorians never made it to Cyprus, and certainly not in the numbers needed to change the dialect. Also Calabrian Griko never experienced direct Dorian settlement either

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Of course they also borrowed many many words from the surrounding Salentine dialects. Here an Italian-Griko vocabulary, I don't know if you can understand it:

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/vocabolario-italiano-griko/

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The 2 most famous Griko songs:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htKsZVDVNEs

[Tacitus]

and second video- 80% is understandable for me.

What is he talking about?


Of course they also borrowed many many words from the surrounding Salentine dialects. Here an Italian-Griko vocabulary, I don't know if you can understand it:

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/vocabolario-italiano-griko/

I have this book on the Griko spoken in Bovesia that includes poems, stories, and prayers as well as a dictionary. A priceless resource:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Il_Dialetto_greco_calabro_di_Bova.html?id=TVQzAQAA MAAJ

[Odin]

Dinaro-Meds and Atlanto-Meds.

[DarknessWin]

They don't look different from other southern Italians.

The girl look Pontid

[Voskos]

What is he talking about?



I have this book on the Griko spoken in Bovesia that includes poems, stories, and prayers as well as a dictionary. A priceless resource:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Il_Dialetto_greco_calabro_di_Bova.html?id=TVQzAQAA MAAJ

hes talking about his life, his family etc. He says his parents spoke Greek at home and not Italian. He also says, concerning the history of the surrounding villages, that in 1572 ,Latin archbishop of Cyprus Giulio Straviano came to the region and changed the Greek rite of the 5 churches there to Latin, but the people still continued to use Greek language in the church.

those are some of the importants things he says

Interesting.

[trebil]

Griko from Salento, Apulia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww

[Papastratosels26]

:thumb001:

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Classify another Griko from Apulia, Rocco Aprile

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Rocco-Aprile-1.jpg

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Dorian Greek. The Tsakonians still do the same. The technical term for doing this Tsitakismos. These griko peoples are exceptionally authentic and some of their Greek displays aspects not of byzantine Greek - put of pre-christian Greek - these peoples are the descendants most likely of the original Greek colonists from the 8th to the 4th centuries BC.

Greek Government (if ever there is a non leftist one again..) should be involved in cultural exchanges with these peoples.

There is a good article about the history of Griko but it's in Italian (it was written by Rocco Aprile), you can try to use Google Translate.
https://translate.google.com/
http://www.ciuricepedi.it/griko/

[Sikeliot]

Classify another Griko from Apulia, Rocco Aprile

http://www.ciuricepedi.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Rocco-Aprile-1.jpg

He looks like most Apulians I have seen.

Griko and Italian speaking Apulians are genetically identical. There is, however, slight differentiation of Calabrese Grecani and Italian speaking Calabrese.

[Teucer]

Dorian Greek. The Tsakonians still do the same. The technical term for doing this Tsitakismos. These griko peoples are exceptionally authentic and some of their Greek displays aspects not of byzantine Greek - put of pre-christian Greek - these peoples are the descendants most likely of the original Greek colonists from the 8th to the 4th centuries BC.

Greek Government (if ever there is a non leftist one again..) should be involved in cultural exchanges with these peoples.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw

To my knowledge Cyprus was only ever thoroughly colonised by Mycenaeans and Arcadians, not Dorians

[Ajeje Brazorf]

He looks like most Apulians I have seen.

Griko and Italian speaking Apulians are genetically identical. There is, however, slight differentiation of Calabrese Grecani and Italian speaking Calabrese.

I find them indistinguishable from the rest of the Calabrese, a large part of Reggio Calabria is made up of people who have lost the Griko language by adopting the Romance dialect. Two Calabrian Greeks and a Greek interviewer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iZCiKynSg

[Sikeliot]

Where is that Apulian member on here who was distressed that MyHeritage gave him over 80% Greek? Sikeliot, you remember the guy - he was inconsolable.. said he seems himself as more Norman influenced or some nonsense..:picard1:

Norman DNA in southern Italy is so low to begin with, it is not worth claiming from a genetic point of view, only a cultural one.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What has Cyprus got to do with anything? I am answering your question as to why they have the accent (kai to tzai) and how it is the same accent still found in the Peloponnese and a remnant of Dorian inflection. The Dorian inflection was found across Greece - specifically 100s of various tribes in the Peloponnese - an area that was dominant in colonising this part of Magna Grecia.

Also Arcadians are pure Dorians. Arcadians are the Tsakonians.

I think that Griko is a much younger language that has its roots especially in the early Middle Ages, its archaic characteristics may have once been widespread throughout Greece.

[Teucer]

What has Cyprus got to do with anything? I am answering your question as to why they have the accent (kai to tzai) and how it is the same accent still found in the Peloponnese and a remnant of Dorian inflection. The Dorian inflection was found across Greece - specifically 100s of various tribes in the Peloponnese - an area that was dominant in colonising this part of Magna Grecia.

Also Arcadians are pure Dorians. Arcadians are the Tsakonians.

Sorry. My point is Cypriots also have this inflection in their accent and Dorians never moved en masse to Cyprus, so I am less inclined to believe your theory. The Griko of Calabria also use the tze sound and they were not Dorians either.

I am more incline to believe it originated from elsewhere, not the Dorians, given populations with little contact with the Dorians also have the inflection

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Where is that Apulian member on here who was distressed that MyHeritage gave him over 80% Greek? Sikeliot, you remember the guy - he was inconsolable.. said he seems himself as more Norman influenced or some nonsense..:picard1:

MyHeritage is not reliable, it gave 20% North African to Sicilians lol. In southern Italy people with lighter than average hair and eyes think they are descended from the Normans, but it is obviously a false myth spread due to general ignorance.

[Teucer]

Also Arcadians are pure Dorians. Arcadians are the Tsakonians.

That is untrue. The language of the Arcadians was different to the Dorians, hence why they are designated their own linguistic group, 'Arcado-Cypriot' and this is what still survives on Cyprus today.

Even ethnically the Arcadians were not Dorians. Perhaps they were afterwards due to mixing with other Greek groups in the South, but not at the beginning. They were considered Pelasgians. According to myth, the Deucalion Flood happened because the Arcadian king, Lycaion, angered Zeus, and this was before Helen and his sons.

I am not saying this myth is true. What I am trying to show is that even in the Greek myths and ancient Greek society, Arcadians were considered different from the Dorians

[Teucer]

So much wrong here, will go one by one.



I have no theories concerning Cyprus. What I did point out is you stated only Arcadians and Myceneans moved there. Arcadians are amongst the purest Dorians in the ancient world. So your statment is what we call an oxymoron.



The Dorian dialect was prevalent across the Peloponnese. The serial colonisers from Corinth would have spoke with a Dorian accent for example. Dorians replaced Mycenaean culture and fused it with their own - creating a hybrid hellenic language and culture and the Peloponnese spoke Dorian dialects instead Mycenean Greek from 1200 BC /1100 BC to when Koine Greek finally began to dominate from around 200BC - long after the last colonists from the Peloponnese had colonised parts of Magna Grecia 100s of years before. So we have 1000 years of Dorian Greek being spoken. Like with Tsakonian - like with Grikos -those the most isolated kept archaic structures.



Again - I suspect you are underestimating how prevalent Dorian inflection was. Dorian Expansion was vast. The Macedonians for example are also of pure Dorian descent. they were proud of it just like the Lakonians and Arcadians. You would get islands in the middle of the Aegean speaking Dorian dialects and the next island not..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Wells_Hellenic_races.png/800px-Wells_Hellenic_races.png

Perhaps I am underestimating how much traction the Dorian language had but I disagree with the Arcadians being Dorians. Look at my other quote

[Tacitus]

hes talking about his life, his family etc. He says his parents spoke Greek at home and not Italian. He also says, concerning the history of the surrounding villages, that in 1572 ,Latin archbishop of Cyprus Giulio Straviano came to the region and changed the Greek rite of the 5 churches there to Latin, but the people still continued to use Greek language in the church.

those are some of the importants things he says

Interesting.

Fascinating, thanks for sharing.


Indeed. Even Tsakonian has some modern Greek elements. However you look for the things modern Greek/ Byzantine Greek doesn't have and then you explore why people have archaic references in their dialects. There is only one conclusion.. and it predates Byzantine Greece and Byzantine Italy. The historians documented the extent of the colonisation and it was a major movement of peoples.

While the Magna Graecia colonization had the most impact, both linguistically and demographically, there were migrations during the Middle Ages that, at the very least, probably revitalized the Greek language in both Calabria and Puglia. The last of the migrations occurred after the Ottoman invasions and conquest of Greek territories.

This video talks about the small community of Greeks who settled in eastern Sicily (specifically Messina) during this time period; the relevant part is around the 13:10 minute mark where he says: "...però, nella lettura dei profughi greci che nell'arco di secoli, per diversi motivi, perche cacciati dalle loro terre delle isole ionie, dal peloponneso dall'avanzata turca e quindi rifugiatisi in Calabria, in Puglia, e nella costa orientale della Sicilia..." ("however, in the reading of Greek refugees over the centuries, for different reasons, because they were driven from their lands in the Ionian Islands, from the Peloponnese by the Turkish advance, and therefore they took refuge in Calabria, in Puglia, and the eastern coast of Sicily...").


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa75w57D8lE

[Teucer]

Yes I am correct. The Arcadia borders have shifted. I am descended like most Arcadians - from Eastern Arcadia - shown as Dorian here (I have marked Leonidio in pink where they still speak a Dorian dialect):

https://i.snag.gy/amv1UP.jpg

However today these are the borders of modern Arcadia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Nomos_Arkadias.png/250px-Nomos_Arkadias.png

Modern boarders don't matter when we talk about Ancient Greece. Arcadia was separate from the homeland of Dorians and was isolated, and the area you are from is only now designated as Arcadia, not in ancient times. I am willing to concede the Dorian dialect being more prevalent than I previously thought but I still disagree with the Arcadians being Dorians. They were considered a 'native' population in Greece by the different Greek tribes. They may have later on become like Dorians due to a number of reasons but they were quintessentially Arcadian with their own linguistic group.

Second, I am not saying the Dorians were not Greeks. They were all Greek populations, but my point is that they differed in the same way Ionians and Aeloians differed from Dorians too.

Third, you may not care about Cyprus but you need to account why they too also had these Dorian inflections when they didn't experience any Dorian migrations like the Dodecanese or Crete. It couldn't have been from the Arcadians for the reasons I have already said, but on top of that, the Arcadian colonisation of Cyprus PREDATED the expansion of the Dorians by hundreds of years.

Perhaps these inflections were not native to the Dorians and already existed in the Peloponnese and was later popularised by the Dorians due to their consolidation of power and influence in the region

[Tauromachos]

Perhaps I am underestimating how much traction the Dorian language had but I disagree with the Arcadians being Dorians. Look at my other quote

The question is what i pointed out often what the Dorians themselfes actually were.

There is a huge misconception about them i think.

People repeat that Dorians were some Invadors who entered from somewhere else into Greece.

For example they claim Dorians came from the Balkans to Greece or other things..

I say this is most likely rubbish and the Dorians were essentialy Greek people who settled in different parts and also mixed with other Greek tribes.

If you ignore my point of view regarding the Dorians then you unavoidably arrive at contradictions and paradoxes like here in the case of Arcadians.

If something leads you to contradiction or paradox then its likely to be wrong.
And the idiot concept of Dorian Invasion which most people repeat here like parrots is most likely such a thing which is wrong.

[ADonkeyBrain]

The feature that has been debated is due to the affrication of a voiceless palatal stop, /c/ > /tʃ/, and as mentioned is often called "tsitacism" (due to its sound) within the context of Greek dialectology and operates in plenty of languages including Italian as our Italian speakers can confirm. As far as I know, it's a post-Classical (so after the spread of Koine Greek) innovation and so likely has nothing to do with any ancient dialects in particular and can be found areas where different ancient dialects were anciently spoken, Doric, Arcado-Cypriot etc. This is unlike something like Tsakonian "sios" ('god', standard = theos) which shows specifically the continuation of an ancient Doric feature (th > s).


Griko and Italian speaking Apulians are genetically identical. There is, however, slight differentiation of Calabrese Grecani and Italian speaking Calabrese.

Indeed and the main difference was in their Northern European-centered ADMIXTURE component. I wonder whether the Greek-speaking Calabrians just happen to have slightly different origins or whether about half of that influx in the far south and Sicily is due to post-Byzantine events. Even the Cretans and Aegean islanders had more of it, at Sicilian/South Italian levels, but their near eastern profile leans towards the Caucasus while that of the Calabrian Greeks towards the Levant. The latter look more like late medieval Italians minus something the surrounding populations acquired later, rather than anything else really but I'm open to surprises...