Migrations amongst Europeans

[hereward]

Could you please post information and evidence with regards to historical migrations of other Europeans to your Country? If possible, please include numerical estimates. These migrations must of happened post ethnogenesis of your Nation, for example the migration of French Huguenots and Norwegians to the Netherlands (16-1700s). I am not interested in small/individual movements, merchants etc. I am interested in all the European Nations, from Iceland to Russia, including ethnic groups that have been/currently are without an ethnic state. Also please state if the said migration had either a National or local effect. Many Thanks.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Estonians into southern Finland, 11th(?) century, number unknown.
Swedes into western and southwestern Finland around 12th--14th century and trickles later. Number unknown but in thousands.
Swedes to western Estonia, 13th century. Numbers unknown.
Finns into central and western Sweden and eastern Norway 17th century. Number unknow, estimates between 10 -20 000.
Finns into northern Norway 18th century, number unknown.
Norwegians to Iceland, Faroe and Orkney islands 10th century, number unknown.
Vallonians into Sweden, 17th century, less than 2000?
Germans into virtually every town around the Baltic sea; Stockholm, Tallin, Turku, Viipuri, Kalmar, Visby e.t.c, number unknown but in thousands.
Gippos into Sweden and Norway, 16th century and from there to Finland 17th century.

[Peyrol]

Could you please post information and evidence with regards to historical migrations of other Europeans to your Country? If possible, please include numerical estimates. These migrations must of happened post ethnogenesis of your Nation, for example the migration of French Huguenots and Norwegians to the Netherlands (16-1700s). I am not interested in small/individual movements, merchants etc. I am interested in all the European Nations, from Iceland to Russia, including ethnic groups that have been/currently are without an ethnic state. Also please state if the said migration had either a National or local effect. Many Thanks.

Italian population in 450 A.D. : 10 - 12 millions of romans (homogeneus population that was a mix of original latins with greek, italics and celts).

Let's start!

1) Invasion of the germanic tribe of Herules ruled by king Odoacer: 476 A.D. (estimated 10.000)
2) Invasion of the germanic tribe of the Ostergoten of Theodericus, VI century (estimated 15-20.000)
3) Invasion of the Longobard of king Alboinn (estimated 250.000 Longobards + 5000 Saxson + 5000 Svears)
4) Invasion of the arabs in Sicilia (estimated 10.000) in the VIII century
5) Invasion of Normans in Sicilia, Puglia,Calabria and Campania (estimated 40.000-60.000 normans) in XI century
6) Aragonian conquest of Napoli ( over 50.000 estimated aragon man migrated to southern Italy) in XII-XIII century

Italian population in 2011: 61.000.000

The End!


...oh no, nowdays!!!
7) 500.000 albanian/shiptats migrated in Italy from 1990 to 2011
8) over 1.000.000 of muslim like moroccan, tunisian, libians, palestinian, ecc ecc...migrated in Italy from 1985 to 2011
9) 1.100.000 romanians and more than 500.000 moldavian migrated in Itay from 1989 to 2011

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Italian population in 450 A.D. : 10 - 12 millions of romans (homogeneus population that was a mix of original latins with greek, italics and celts).

Let's start!

1) Invasion of the germanic tribe of Herules ruled by king Odoacer: 476 A.D. (estimated 10.000)
2) Invasion of the germanic tribe of the Ostergoten of Theodericus, VI century (estimated 15-20.000)
3) Invasion of the Longobard of king Alboinn (estimated 250.000 Longobards + 5000 Saxson + 5000 Svears)4) Invasion of the arabs in Sicilia (estimated 10.000) in the VIII century
5) Invasion of Normans in Sicilia, Puglia,Calabria and Campania (estimated 40.000-60.000 normans) in XI century
6) Aragonian conquest of Napoli ( over 50.000 estimated aragon man migrated to southern Italy) in XII-XIII century

Italian population in 2011: 61.000.000

The End!


...oh no, nowdays!!!
7) 500.000 albanian/shiptats migrated in Italy from 1990 to 2011
8) over 1.000.000 of muslim like moroccan, tunisian, libians, palestinian, ecc ecc...migrated in Italy from 1985 to 2011
9) 1.100.000 romanians and more than 500.000 moldavian migrated in Itay from 1989 to 2011
The invasions are historical facts but the numbers, their origins and the accuracy is disputed.

[Peyrol]

The invasions are historical facts but the numbers, their origins and the accuracy is disputed.

True. In fact, I posted the lower estimates.
Some historicals argue that the Lombards were 500,000 or more.

[Daos]

Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_of_Romania) - Around 15,000 Albanians settled in Muntenia during the reign of Mihai Viteazul (1593-1601).

Banat Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Bulgarians) - They fled from the Ottoman Empire in the thousands in the search for a better life.

Banat Swabians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Swabians) - Most of them came from from Alsace-Lorraine, Austria, Bavaria, Franconia, and the Palatinate (few from Swabia) in the 18th century. Between 15.000 and 40.000 came in the first wave, but most of them died of malaria or of the plague. The second wave brought around 75.000 colonists and the third one 60.000.

Bessarabia Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia_Germans) - They settled in Bessarabia in the beginning of the 19th century. After the USSR annexed Bessarabia, in 1940, 93,000 Germans were transferred to Poland.

Bessarabian Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabian_Bulgarians) - They settled in Bessarabia at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century, during the feudal revolts in the Ottoman Empire and after the Russo-Turkish wars.

Bukovina Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina_Germans) - They began settling in Bukovina around the year 1774. When they were repatriated, in 1940, they numbered around 96,000.

Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Romania) - After the fall of Constantinople many Greeks settled in Moldavia and Wallachia.

Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Romania) - During the Great Northern War many Poles took refuge in Moldavia, however they were expelled at Russia's request. After 1774, most Polish immigrants came looking for work.

Russians (Lipovans (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoveni)) - Old Believers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_believers) that have fled Russia after 1654, because of the persecution

Satu Mare Swabians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satu_Mare_Swabians) - They were brought in the 18th century in the Maramureș region in order to repopulate it

South Slavs - During the Ottoman rule many south Slavs sought refuge in Wallachia, all were recorded as Serbs.

Transylvanian Landler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Landler) - Protestants that were deported from Austria in the thousands, between 1734 and 1776.

Transylvanian Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons) - The colonization of Transylvania by Germans was begun by King Géza II of Hungary (1141–1162) and continued until the end of the 13th century.

Zipser Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipser_Germans) - They came to Maramureș and Bucovina from Zips, in many waves, in the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century. When they were repatriated, in 1940, they numbered 1118.

We also have Croatians, Czechs, Slovenians and Slovaks, but I couldn't find any information about when they got here...

[hereward]

Italian population in 450 A.D. : 10 - 12 millions of romans (homogeneus population that was a mix of original latins with greek, italics and celts).

Let's start!.......

1) Invasion of the germanic tribe of Herules ruled by king Odoacer: 476 A.D. (estimated 10.000)
9) 1.100.000 romanians and more than 500.000 moldavian migrated in Itay from 1989 to 2011

So form the 11th Century through to the end of the 19th Century, would you say that the population had been relatively stable, ignoring the Black Death etc? Did any regions produce a surplus population leading to this surplus migrating to other regions? Again, thank you.


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_of_Romania) - Around 15,000 Albanians settled in Muntenia during the reign of Mihai Viteazul (1593-1601).

Banat Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Bulgarians) - They fled from the Ottoman Empire in the thousands in the search for a better life.

Banat Swabians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Swabians) - Most of them came from from Alsace-Lorraine, Austria, Bavaria, Franconia, and the Palatinate (few from Swabia) in the 18th century. Between 15.000 and 40.000 came in the first wave, but most of them died of malaria or of the plague. The second wave brought around 75.000 colonists and the third one 60.000.

Bessarabia Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia_Germans) - They settled in Bessarabia in the beginning of the 19th century. After the USSR annexed Bessarabia, in 1940, 93,000 Germans were transferred to Poland.

Bessarabian Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabian_Bulgarians) - They settled in Bessarabia at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century, during the feudal revolts in the Ottoman Empire and after the Russo-Turkish wars.

Bukovina Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovina_Germans) - They began settling in Bukovina around the year 1774. When they were repatriated, in 1940, they numbered around 96,000.

Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Romania) - After the fall of Constantinople many Greeks settled in Moldavia and Wallachia.

Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Romania) - During the Great Northern War many Poles took refuge in Moldavia, however they were expelled at Russia's request. After 1774, most Polish immigrants came looking for work.

Russians (Lipovans (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoveni)) - Old Believers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_believers) that have fled Russia after 1654, because of the persecution

Satu Mare Swabians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satu_Mare_Swabians) - They were brought in the 18th century in the Maramureș region in order to repopulate it

South Slavs - During the Ottoman rule many south Slavs sought refuge in Wallachia, all were recorded as Serbs.

Transylvanian Landler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Landler) - Protestants that were deported from Austria in the thousands, between 1734 and 1776.

Transylvanian Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons) - The colonization of Transylvania by Germans was begun by King Géza II of Hungary (1141–1162) and continued until the end of the 13th century.

Zipser Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipser_Germans) - They came to Maramureș and Bucovina from Zips, in many waves, in the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century. When they were repatriated, in 1940, they numbered 1118.

We also have Croatians, Czechs, Slovenians and Slovaks, but I couldn't find any information about when they got here...

Daos, was all of the German populations expelled from Romania post war? Would you please comment on what effect you think these migrations have had, is there a region or regions where you think these migrations have led to a slight difference in the local population compared to the national population?

[Daos]

Daos, was all of the German populations expelled from Romania post war?

Most Germans were transferred to Poland and Germany in 1940, during the Heim ins Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_ins_Reich) policy or were evacuated after the soviets occupied Romania. Many of those that remained were deported to Siberia or, if they were lucky, Bărăgan and put to forced labour. The Germans weren't expelled, but „sold” - the German government had to pay in order for them to be aloud to emigrate.


Would you please comment on what effect you think these migrations have had, is there a region or regions where you think these migrations have led to a slight difference in the local population compared to the national population?

The Germans built four of the largest cities in Transylvania and several smaller towns and villages so they played a significant role in the region's history and played an even larger role in the history of Banat, however, besides the buildings, not much remains of them.

This can be said about all these minorities: aside from a few villages in which they are the majority, they barely exist.

[Peyrol]

So form the 11th Century through to the end of the 19th Century, would you say that the population had been relatively stable, ignoring the Black Death etc? Did any regions produce a surplus population leading to this surplus migrating to other regions? Again, thank you.




Oh no, there have been many variations... during the Black Plague, about 1/3 of the population was exterminated, and in 1630, there was another epidemic that depopulated Milano and the Lombardia.

Another significant thing was the "Italian diaspora", which from 1800 until 1950 led many people to live in other parts of Europe, or the Americas and Africa...in fact, nowadays in Italy there are 55 million Italians, while in the rest of the world about 70 million.

Also the population policies of Mussolini, who brought the population from 35 million in 1922 to 45 million in 1939, influenced much modern Italy.

Has been calculated that without the medieval epidemics and emigration, in Italy today would be living about 150/170 million of Italians

[Motörhead Remember Me]

True. In fact, I posted the lower estimates.
Some historicals argue that the Lombards were 500,000 or more.

That there were Svear among the Lombards is more fiction than fact.

[Peyrol]

That there were Svear among the Lombards is more fiction than fact.

Also about the subject of the people who went down eith Lombard allied, there are conflicting sources: the Latin sources tells that with Lombards comed Saxons, Jutes and markmannish, while Paul Deacon (a Lombard historian at the service of Charlemagne) speaks of Lombard (originally named "Winnili"), Saxons,Jutes and Svears.

I personally think that the Latin sources were more reliable than lombards sources.

[Ushtari]

Slavs into Dardania(kosovo), around 12 century(or earlier).


"Kosovo did not fall within the Serb territory of Rascia, which was further to the north-west: the Serbian expansion into Kosovo began in earnest only in the late twelfth century. About the other early Slav settlers in this part of the Balkans we have much less information"
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html

Followed by a re-colonization in early 1900's


"In 1912, during the Balkan Wars, most of Kosovo was taken by the Kingdom of Serbia, while the region of Metohija (Albanian: Dukagjini Valley) was taken by the Kingdom of Montenegro. An exodus of the local Albanian population occurred. This is best described by Leon Trotsky, who was a reporter for the Pravda newspaper at the time. The Serbian authorities planned a recolonization of Kosovo. Numerous colonist Serb families moved-in to Kosovo, equalizing the demographic balance between Albanians and Serbs. Many Albanians fled into the mountains and numerous Albanian and Turkish houses were razed. The reconquest of Kosovo was noted as a vengeance for the 1389 Battle of Kossovo. At the Conference of Ambassadors in London in 1912 presided over by Sir Edward Grey, the British Foreign Secretary, the Kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro were acknowledged sovereignty over Kosovo."
http://www.setthings.com/2007/12/09/kosovo-balkans-touch-stone/

[Albion]

Germanics into England (Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans)
Germanics (Vikings, English, Normans, Flemmish) into Ireland, Scotland and Wales
Celts into England (both "ancient" and modern Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish)

[Mordid]

Tribe into Silesia
-Germanic (Goth, Vandal, Silingi)
-Slavic (Silesian, Opolanie, Ślężanie, Polan, Masovians and other Silesian tribe)
-Celtic (unknown tribe name)
-Scythians (which explain my phenotype) :p

Slavic influence are absolutely strongest among Silesian people.

[Albion]

[Not all to my country obviously, but some are to England]


Frisians to England, throughout Magna Frisia and Arkaberg (Faroe Islands)
Finns to Torn valley (Sweden) and Northern Norway
Scandinavians expanding northwards throughout history into former Sami areas
Roma into Europe
Germas to Romania and Hungary
Russians to Koningsberg
Maltese, Portuguese, English, Jews to Gibraltar
Vandals into North Africa
Phyrigians into Anatolia forming the Armenians
Celts into Balkans
Celts into Italy, Iberia and Britain
Slavs into Eastern Europe and parts of Germany
Bretons with the Normans into England
Norwegains, Dutch and English colonizing Svalbard followed by Russians
Norse to Greenland

[Mordid]

Frisians to England, throughout Magna Frisia and Arkaberg (Faroe Islands)
Finns to Torn valley (Sweden) and Northern Norway
Scandinavians expanding northwards throughout history into former Sami areas
Roma into Europe
Germas to Romania and Hungary
Russians to Koningsberg
Maltese, Portuguese, English, Jews to Gibraltar
Vandals into North Africa
Phyrigians into Anatolia forming the Armenians
Celts into Balkans
Celts into Italy, Iberia and Britain
Slavs into Eastern Europe and parts of Germany
Bretons with the Normans into England
Norwegains, Dutch and English colonizing Svalbard followed by Russians
Norse to Greenland


And dont forget - Balts into Northern Eastern Germany. :)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Finns to Torn valley (Sweden) and Northern Norway


A note:
Actually it was the other way around, Swedes expanding into Torne valley. The Tornevalley has belonged to the Baltic Finnish cultural sphere for atleast a millenia.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

And dont forget - Balts into Northern Eastern Germany. :)


A note:
Actually it was the other way around, Germanics into a Baltic/Baltic Finnish cultural sphere. Prussians were originally speakers of a Baltic language.

[hereward]

I would like to see some Hungarians post, regarding the Demographic changes that took place during/after the wars with the Turks. To what extent was the Hungarian population diminished? What was the scale of the following German, Slavic and Romanian settlement? Please post anything about Hungarian demographics after ethnogenesis; bibliographical recommendations would be much appreciated. Arrowcoss?

[Pallantides]

I'll just quote a post I made in another thread:


The Germans, Swedes, Finns and Scots are major historical immigrant groups in Norway:
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2856/innvandringtillnorge.jpg(this map contain an error, the Forest Finns came from Savonia, not the area marked on the map)


Forest Finns settled in East Norway while the Scots came the West Norway, the German presence was strongest in Trøndelag, in 1702 40% of the population of Trondheim where Germans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Finns



Forest Finn settlements in Norway and Sweden, 1686
http://195.159.218.27/nyenordmenn/nettustillinger/NF_ML/4/finner/img/finnner1.gif