Andronovo people's phenotype

[cyberlorian]

Which phenotype did ancient Andronovo people mostly have?

[cyberlorian]

Poll added.

[Voskos]

Turanid+Nordid.

[cyberlorian]

Turanid+Nordid.

I guess Turanid formed after Hunnic invasions.

[Voskos]

I guess Turanid formed after Hunnic invasions.

Andronovo is North Turanid= Europid+Mongoloid. South Turanids like Turkmens might have formed after Hunnic invasions, but its not sure. South Turanid=Iranid+Mongoloid.

[cyberlorian]

Andronovo is North Turanid= Europid+Mongoloid

Which Europid?

[Marmara]

Androvono was a mixed area, but i guess initially it was Baltid or East Nordid.

[Voskos]

Which Europid?

Probably Yamnaya type so I will go with Nordic.

[cyberlorian]

Androvono was a mixed area, but i guess initially it was Baltid or East Nordid.

Maybe Faelid also?

[Livin]

Maybe Faelid also?

Faelid is a mix between nordid and paleolithic cromagnon!!!

So it cant be!!!!

[Livin]

Which phenotype did ancient Andronovo people mostly have?

I think it was a mix between caucasoids and mongoloids!!!

[cyberlorian]

I think it was a mix between caucasoids and mongoloids!!!

Which Caucasoid and which Mongoloid? :)

[Livin]

Which Caucasoid and which Mongoloid? :)

Irano-corded proper and some steppe aralid-turanid mixed with neolithics.

[cyberlorian]

Irano-corded proper and some steppe aralid-turanid mixed with neolithics.

Actually Aralid and Turanid are not fully Mongoloid. They are somewhere between.
Most probably
Turanid = 50 percent Tungid + 50 percent Irano Corded
Aralid = 75 percent Tungid + 25 percent Irano Corded

[Acubens]

Irano - Nordic and Corded Nordic.

[Joeary]

Androvono was a mixed area, but i guess initially it was Baltid or East Nordid.

nah it wasnt, rest assured bud, it was mostly hallstatt nordid, corded, tronder, faelid, brunn, paleoeuropean, keltic nordid and maybe some neo dunubian here and there

[Joeary]

Maybe Faelid also?

you are right, there were faelid types

[Joeary]

Androvono was a mixed area, but i guess initially it was Baltid or East Nordid.

LMAO, i cant believe people still ass lick the coonie woonie, anyways dude, those types have NEVER been described in anthropology of skulls in general of any european group in post coonie woonie psuedoshitty's work, because well, 1st, all phenotypes you SEE in fucking northern europe or west Europe are a result from the mixture between yamnaya and eef people, so it all came from corded ware culture, the reason for different looks between east and west Europeans is simply that easterns are extremely distant from their ancestral predecessors from bronze age and are extremely drifted unlike germanics and such who are very very very very very close to bell beaker and corded ware people. so that coincides with my previous statement that modern west and northern european phenotypes came from indo europeans, also, most reconstructions of andronovo you see are from the groups that are very distant from the actual mlba cluster, show me a pure mlba reconstruction and ill guarantee you hed look either tronder, corded or faelid cro magnid type. i have one reconstruction of a sintashta that resembles the faelid type if you want, get over it turkey man. coon is a psuedo maniac, he and his contemporaries were simply out of their minds, tell me, have you ever read a russian anthropologist say which skull is "corded nordid" or "east eurpoid" in their literature conducting a study of the skulls of andronovo? NO, becuase its all bullshit.

[Joeary]

Turanid+Nordid.

nah, mostly nordid types with cro magnid, also depends which andronovo group you are talking about, west kazkhstani alakul group? eastern upper ob fedeorvo group? or the centeral or north eastern alakul? all of which were genetically distinct from each other, so your generalization is worth wiping my shit with.

[Wilfredtheslayer]

Could I see the reconstruction of the Sintashta male?(Not Gay Btw).

[Veslan]

Iranian Nordoid, Pontid, North Pontid, Corded, Cro-Magnoid mostly (don't know the proportion, Soviet anthropologic statistics seem to be confusing in this regard)
Eastern Andronovo maybe also some Turanid as a minority

[cass]

https://i.ibb.co/gDC8QT3/andro.jpg (https://ibb.co/Wc1X7y6)

Genetically, they were most similar to the modern (Erzya?) Mordvins.

[Roy]

I think many Andronovo people fit ''Aryan'' phenotypical description that aherne uses.

While browsing reconstructions I noticed an overabundance of prominent noses among Andronovo people.

You can sometimes see their influence popping up in Tajik people like in the case of this man. However Andronovo people were varied too.

https://i0.wp.com/thestrangecontinent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Tajik.jpg?resize=736%2C503&ssl=1

[ugochaves]

I think many Andronovo people fit ''Aryan'' phenotypical description that aherne uses.

While browsing reconstructions I noticed an overabundance of prominent noses among Andronovo people.

You can sometimes see their influence popping up in Tajik people like in the case of this man. However Andronovo people were varied too.

https://i0.wp.com/thestrangecontinent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Tajik.jpg?resize=736%2C503&ssl=1
I agree. But this is a very rare phenotype among Tajiks. Probably 0.1%. Basically they are 99.9 Turans%

This person in the middle is very similar to the Russian, very much.

[Joeary]

Iranian Nordoid, Pontid, North Pontid, Corded, Cro-Magnoid mostly (don't know the proportion, Soviet anthropologic statistics seem to be confusing in this regard)
Eastern Andronovo maybe also some Turanid as a minority

you have no evidence of that. they were atlantid to hallstatt nordids

[Joeary]

I agree. But this is a very rare phenotype among Tajiks. Probably 0.1%. Basically they are 99.9 Turans%

This person in the middle is very similar to the Russian, very much.

he looks english

[Joeary]

https://i.ibb.co/gDC8QT3/andro.jpg (https://ibb.co/Wc1X7y6)

Genetically, they were most similar to the modern (Erzya?) Mordvins.

genetic simialitiy doesnt mean anything, they are most closest to germanics, they both largerly derive from cwc, so yeah they looked more nordic than germancs

[Joeary]

Iranian Nordoid, Pontid, North Pontid, Corded, Cro-Magnoid mostly (don't know the proportion, Soviet anthropologic statistics seem to be confusing in this regard)
Eastern Andronovo maybe also some Turanid as a minority

iranian nordid was zero in andronovo culture

[cass]

genetic simialitiy doesnt mean anything, they are most closest to germanics, they both largerly derive from cwc, so yeah they looked more nordic than germancs

https://i.ibb.co/tJzB9Kj/0a0e4790832983586f56a0c1a3a7eda0.png (https://ibb.co/yQp0rPv)
I don't see a particular correlation

[Joeary]

https://i.ibb.co/tJzB9Kj/0a0e4790832983586f56a0c1a3a7eda0.png (https://ibb.co/yQp0rPv)
I don't see a particular correlation

slavs are heavily drifted, also high yamnaya ancestry doesnt equate to corded ware ancestry, slavs have low corded ware ancestry, its never beyond 60 and on average derive only 50-55, scandanvians on the other hand derive a whopping of 68-74, the more corded ware ancestry you derive the more northern european you'll look, modern germanics are basically corded ware, single grave culture+battle axe people without literally zero bell beaker input or celtic like input, expect icelandics. therefore its the scandanvians that are a accurate representation of indo iranians/corded ware looked like

[cass]

slavs are heavily drifted, also high yamnaya ancestry doesnt equate to corded ware ancestry, slavs have low corded ware ancestry, its never beyond 60 and on average derive only 50-55, scandanvians on the other hand derive a whopping of 68-74, the more corded ware ancestry you derive the more northern european you'll look, modern germanics are basically corded ware, single grave culture+battle axe people without literally zero bell beaker input or celtic like input, expect icelandics. therefore its the scandanvians that are a accurate representation of indo iranians/corded ware looked like

https://i.ibb.co/jLH3Tc5/bbcz.png (https://ibb.co/0fQYcgX)
https://i.ibb.co/ZxTP2BT/bbnl.png (https://ibb.co/RcHmj3H)
https://i.ibb.co/BKM9dck/cwb.png (https://ibb.co/mFW31bp)
I think you're deeply mistaken

[Joeary]

https://i.ibb.co/jLH3Tc5/bbcz.png (https://ibb.co/0fQYcgX)
https://i.ibb.co/ZxTP2BT/bbnl.png (https://ibb.co/RcHmj3H)
https://i.ibb.co/BKM9dck/cwb.png (https://ibb.co/mFW31bp)
I think you're deeply mistaken

lol, again, genetic similarity doesnt mean much, unetice is extremely close to sintashta culture genetically, does that mean they derive their ancestry? this is pretty inaccurate, also use other corded ware populations to see the distance, thats when the real fun will begin

https://genomicatlas.org/2022/07/15/from-stone-to-bronze-recent-developments-in-scandinavian-archaeogenetics/

https://genomicatlas.org/2021/04/25/genetics-of-the-nordic-bronze-age/

i think your the one whos mistaken here, try reading up more on archaeogenetic maybe

[Joeary]

https://i.ibb.co/jLH3Tc5/bbcz.png (https://ibb.co/0fQYcgX)
https://i.ibb.co/ZxTP2BT/bbnl.png (https://ibb.co/RcHmj3H)
https://i.ibb.co/BKM9dck/cwb.png (https://ibb.co/mFW31bp)
I think you're deeply mistaken

notice how theres zero celtic/bell beaker samples from scandanvia but mutliple corded ware samples? show me one sample from scandanvia that is celtic or bell beaker, than ill concede, also netherlands isnt apart of scandanvia, so dont dwell there too much

[Joeary]

https://i.ibb.co/jLH3Tc5/bbcz.png (https://ibb.co/0fQYcgX)
https://i.ibb.co/ZxTP2BT/bbnl.png (https://ibb.co/RcHmj3H)
https://i.ibb.co/BKM9dck/cwb.png (https://ibb.co/mFW31bp)
I think you're deeply mistaken

121582

another graph from a proper study and not a ammature like you that only supplements me further. modern and nordic bronze age people have predominantly corded ware haplogroups, from Neolithic single grave culture to nordic bronze age to modern age, we can see here again there are zero bell beaker/celtic haplotypes here again, also the study didnt even include any bell beaker samples from scandanvia since there never was any genetic influence from bell beakers, you have much to learn

[cass]

121582

another graph from a proper study and not a ammature like you that only supplements me further. modern and nordic bronze age people have predominantly corded ware haplogroups, from Neolithic single grave culture to nordic bronze age to modern age, we can see here again there are zero bell beaker/celtic haplotypes here again, also the study didnt even include any bell beaker samples from scandanvia since there never was any genetic influence from bell beakers, you have much to learn

Corded ware haplogroups? That's hilarious.

The individuals from BAC and CWC contexts, including oll007 from a megalithic burial, displayed U4 and U5 mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages, previously associated with Stone Age hunter–gatherers [29–34], and H1, N1a, and U3 lineages, associated with Neolithic farmers [1,32,35,36] (table 1; electronic supplementary material, table S4). This broadly coincides with the wide variety of mtDNA lineages found in other individuals from CWC contexts (e.g. [2,32]). However, the U3 and N1a lineages, which were found here (poz44 and ber2), have not been reported from individuals excavated in CWC contexts. The two males in our dataset (ber1 and poz81) belonged to Y-chromosome R1a haplogroups (table 1; electronic supplementary material, table S5), as do the majority of males (16/24) from the previously published CWC contexts (Viby in Sweden, Ardu and Kunila in Estonia, Gyvakarai and Spiginas in Lithuania, Bergrheinfeld and Esperstedt in Germany, and Brandýsek in the Czech Republic) [1,2,7,31,32,37], while a smaller fraction belonged to R1b [3/24] or I2a [3/24] lineages (Tiefbrunn and Esperstedt in Germany, Pikutkowo and Łęki Małe in Poland, and Brandýsek in the Czech Republic) [2,23,32,37]. The R1a haplogroup has not been found among Neolithic farmer populations nor in hunter–gatherer groups in central and western Europe, but it has been reported from eastern European hunter–gatherers and Eneolithic groups [1,31,32]. Individuals from the Pontic–Caspian steppe, associated with the Yamnaya Culture, carry mostly R1b and not R1a haplotypes [1,2,31,32].
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528

[Joeary]

Corded ware haplogroups? That's hilarious.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528

that still doesnt refute what ive said, corded ware were predominantly r1a-r1b, they carried r1b and r1a to northern europe i never said it originated in cwc, but the haplogroup associated with single grave culture and battle axe that modern northern europeans predominantly carry is dated earliest in corded ware culture, the r1b-u106 thats carried by scandanvians originated in corded ware, heres the sample High_Steppe_Corded_Ware_Czech_early_2914-2876BC:PNL001.merged_R1b-U106,0.12862,0.099522,0.050911,0.122741,-0.01693,0.046854,0.006345,-0.00185,-0.04868,-0.07162,-0.00471,0.001499,-0.00803,-0.01486,0.03393,0.008353,-0.01004,-0.00317,-0.00691,0.003126,-0.00262,0.002597,0.006532,0.02904,-0.00467, i1 comes from ertobolle culture and has nothing to with shg, which was a west hunter gatherer culture, anyways, they are the last remaining corded ware people, you are a mega retard

[cass]

Let's summarize facts.

Fact 1 indisputable.
CWC were mostly R1a carriers

source https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528
and even more the chart from unknown source you pasted above (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121582&d=1686958725&thumb=1).



Fact 2 indisputable.

The structure of the y-chromosomes in present-day Scandinavia is completely different from that brought by the CWC

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0092867422014684-figs5_lrg.jpg
source
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867422014684


Please tell us now how you want to prove your thesis




...modern and nordic bronze age people (of Scandinavia) have predominantly corded ware haplogroups...

[Veslan]

you have no evidence of that. they were atlantid to hallstatt nordids

Altantid to hallstatt nordics with high cranial vaults? Lol, you are either clueless or trolling.

Andronovo series cranial records:
https://i.imgur.com/HSWU2Tb.png

As you can see, Lenght-Height cranial index (Высотно-продольный указатель) is always above 70 for Andronovo series. This makes them way too high vaulted on average to be "atlantid to hallstatt nordic".

[Veslan]

slavs are heavily drifted, also high yamnaya ancestry doesnt equate to corded ware ancestry, slavs have low corded ware ancestry, its never beyond 60 and on average derive only 50-55, scandanvians on the other hand derive a whopping of 68-74, the more corded ware ancestry you derive the more northern european you'll look, modern germanics are basically corded ware, single grave culture+battle axe people without literally zero bell beaker input or celtic like input, expect icelandics. therefore its the scandanvians that are a accurate representation of indo iranians/corded ware looked like

Scandis would have too high WHG influence both in looks and in genetics (espacially Danes and Swedes, to lesser extent Norwegians). Also genetics don't always correlate with phenotype. Both evolve over time by the way...
Best represtation of how corded ware looked like would be some isolated ethnic groups like Erzya, not big nations like Swedes.

[Joeary]

Scandis would have too high WHG influence both in looks and in genetics (espacially Danes and Swedes, to lesser extent Norwegians). Also genetics don't always correlate with phenotype. Both evolve over time by the way...
Best represtation of how corded ware looked like would be some isolated ethnic groups like Erzya, not big nations like Swedes.

slavs in general have more hg ancestry in comparison to nords as a whole, anyways, you can look at the cases of srubanaya/andornovo who were cro magnid in features mostly yet had less additonal whg ancestry input, modern nords are definently the best representative of how they looked like for sure, there's really no such thing as "Evolution" occuring amongst phenotypes this isnt the Holocene period, what even is that lmao, try not to forget that germanics entirely descend from single grave+battle axe

[Joeary]

Altantid to hallstatt nordics with high cranial vaults? Lol, you are either clueless or trolling.

Andronovo series cranial records:
https://i.imgur.com/HSWU2Tb.png

As you can see, Lenght-Height cranial index (Высотно-продольный указатель) is always above 70 for Andronovo series. This makes them way too high vaulted on average to be "atlantid to hallstatt nordic".

sorry to burst your bubble but.....121589 heres a reconstruction of a woman from the kulevchi burial of the alakul culture of southern trans urals, shes kelto-saxon and shes low vaulted clearly, with a few dinarid features+hallstatt like influence but with cm

[Joeary]

Altantid to hallstatt nordics with high cranial vaults? Lol, you are either clueless or trolling.

Andronovo series cranial records:
https://i.imgur.com/HSWU2Tb.png

As you can see, Lenght-Height cranial index (Высотно-продольный указатель) is always above 70 for Andronovo series. This makes them way too high vaulted on average to be "atlantid to hallstatt nordic".

also you really cant tell exact phenotypes based on skull "vault" or cranial index, unless there are very stark features at present that can help us navigate through, pontid/atlantid differ in facial features more than neurocranium, your the same guy that posted a graph with like 3 sample of andronovo with ligh hair and claiming that all of them were "light haired" based on that mere 3 samples, why should i be inclined to adhere to this nonsense, it took you a mere fucking 3 samples just to generalize, you are to narrow minded and dogmatic dude, you arent a well published anthropologist or anything

[Joeary]

Let's summarize facts.

Fact 1 indisputable.
CWC were mostly R1a carriers

source https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528
and even more the chart from unknown source you pasted above (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121582&d=1686958725&thumb=1).



Fact 2 indisputable.

The structure of the y-chromosomes in present-day Scandinavia is completely different from that brought by the CWC

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0092867422014684-figs5_lrg.jpg
source
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867422014684


Please tell us now how you want to prove your thesis

number 1, disputable

2 disputable

"I1-M253 (TMRCA 4600 YBP): Haplogroup I1 is present at a frequency of 37% among Norwegians (Dupuy et al. 2006, Genet et al. 2004), 37% among Swedes (Lappalainen et al. 2008, Genet et al. 2004), and 35% among Danes (Genet et al. 2004). I1 is also present at high frequencies among Icelanders, Frisians in the Netherlands, in Western Finland, the eastern parts of England, and in Northern Germany.
R1b-U106 (TMRCA 4600 YBP): Haplogroup R1b is present at a frequency of 31.3% among Norwegians (Dupuy et al. 2006), 23.6% among Swedes (Karlsson et al. 2006), and 36.1% among Danes (Sanchez et al. 2004). The plurality of R1b lineages among Scandinavians belong to the R1b-U106 sublineage, with the second most common sublineage being R1b-P312. In Europe, R1b-U106 reaches its peak in frequency among Frisians in the Netherlands.
R1a-Z284 (TMRCA 4200 YBP): Haplogroup R1a is present at a frequency of 26.3% among Norwegians (Dupuy et al. 2006), 24.4% among Swedes (Lappalainen et al. 2008), and 16.5% among Danes (Sanchez et al. 2004). Most of the R1a in Scandinavia is of the Z284 branch, descended from the Battle Axe culture. In Europe, R1a-Z284 reaches its peak in the northern, northeastern and northwestern parts of Norway and Sweden."

all of these are from cwc, single grave clearly had a abrupt explosion in r1b dumbass, its a corded ware variant aswell, look at the graph i posted above and stop this sperging

[Veslan]

also you really cant tell exact phenotypes based on skull "vault" or cranial index
I can. Lol. That's what real physical anthropology is about. We take measures and make observations based on them.

pontid/atlantid differ in facial features more than neurocranium
Wrong, you are clueless.

your the same guy that posted a graph with like 3 sample of andronovo with ligh hair and claiming that all of them were "light haired" based on that mere 3 samples
I didn't say all of them were light haired. But samples that were found and tested from Andronovo culture implies they were predominantly light haired. If you find a better study which will imply Andronovo was mostly dark-haired, I will have changed my mind.

[Joeary]

I can. Lol. That's what real physical anthropology is about. We take measures and make observations based on them.

Wrong, you are clueless.

I didn't say all of them were light haired. But samples that were found and tested from Andronovo culture implies they were predominantly light haired. If you find a better study which will imply Andronovo was mostly dark-haired, I will have changed my mind.

metrics dont correlate to precise looks, i highly doubt andronovo all looked same in that regards, if we go based on metrics alone than every single andronovo looked basically a clone of each other, a rather stupid logic

[Veslan]

metrics dont correlate to precise looks, i highly doubt andronovo all looked same in that regards, if we go based on metrics alone than every single andronovo looked basically a clone of each other, a rather stupid logic

Keep coping. If they had significant low vaulted phenotype minority, they wouldn't be high vaulted on average.

[Joeary]

Keep coping. If they had significant low vaulted phenotype minority, they wouldn't be high vaulted on average.

high vault is more aesthetically pleasing and all, but you are seriously generalizing, pretty sure there was a study once that said something about andronovians having "all types of head forms" polymorphism clearly manifested, but if you really insist that they were mostly "corded nordid" then they mostly looked like this

121593

but on average sure, but try not to exclude the possibility of there being atlantid-hallstatt phenotypes amongst proto indo iranians, there exists hallstatt strains in afghanistan and logic dictates attribution to a good portion of the populous of proto indo iranians having such a phenotype and brought to isolated places of asia

[Veslan]

high vault is more aesthetically pleasing and all, but you are seriously generalizing, pretty sure there was a study once that said something about andronovians having "all types of head forms" polymorphism clearly manifested, but if you really insist that they were mostly "corded nordid" then they mostly looked like this

121593

but on average sure, but try not to exclude the possibility of there being atlantid-hallstatt phenotypes amongst proto indo iranians, there exists hallstatt strains in afghanistan and logic dictates attribution to a good portion of the populous of proto indo iranians having such a phenotype and brought to isolated places of asia

Well I never said they were mostly Corded Nordid. There are more traits to Corded than just a high cranial vault. I just said they were certainly not more Hallstatt than Corded.
Btw. Indo-Iranians weren't the only Indo-Europeans who ruled over Afghanistan. There were also Greeks and the British. Their genetic influence is obviously way less significant, but still somewhat exists, especially Greek.

[Joeary]

Well I never said they were mostly Corded Nordid. There are more traits to Corded than just a high cranial vault. I just said they were certainly not more Hallstatt than Corded.
Btw. Indo-Iranians weren't the only Indo-Europeans who ruled over Afghanistan. There were also Greeks and the British. Their genetic influence is obviously way less significant, but still somewhat exists, especially Greek.

theres hallstatt and other north-west european types is concentrated mainly in the nursitani isolated region, there are mutliple studies that uphold no evidence of greek contribution to modern afghan ethnic groups

"Research into human DNA has emerged as a new and innovative tool being used to explore the genetic make-up of various populations in order to ascertain historical population movements. According to some genetic research (the source of which is disclosed under the references section below regarding a random sampling of Pashtun populations without specfication as to which Pashtun tribes were tested in western Pakistan) the anthropological evidence that the Pashto-speaking Pashtuns are related to other Iranian groups as well as the Burusho of the Northern Areas of Pakistan, who speak a language isolate. The genetic testing, though still in its initial phases, has not shown any substantial connection between the general Pashtun population sampled to the genetic markers found among most Greeks, Jews, or Arabs. What may be the case is that the gentically Pashtuns have slightly changed over time by due to vairous migrations in the area, while still maintaining an eastern Iranian base genetically overall. Ultimately, a much more detailed, transparent and wider sampling of Pashtun DNA will be required before a conclusive and generally representative answer of Pashto tribal origins can be answered."

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/p/Pashtun_people.htm#:~:text=The%20genetic%20testing %2C%20though%20still%20in%20its%20initial,markers% 20found%20among%20most%20Greeks%2C%20Jews%2C%20or% 20Arabs.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

also, since there is zero British admixture amongst punjabis who are lesser endogenous than afghans, i wouldint think think there can be amongst bunch of tribal dudes who will legit shoot someone for touching hands even if its an accident of the same gender

[cass]

number 1, disputable


You haven't provided any proof yet.
What's more, you yourself confirmed in your graph that BA were exclusively related to R1a.





all of these are from cwc,



StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121) Skoglund 2014
BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014

As you can see I1-M253 is not a Steppe haplotype.


single grave clearly had a abrupt explosion in r1b dumbass

That's enough to discard your theories based on chromosome Y.


Spaniards have the majority of R1b, Lithuanians- haplogroup N1c, which is completely inconsistent with their real origin.

[Joeary]

You haven't provided any proof yet.
What's more, you yourself confirmed in your graph that BA were exclusively related to R1a.






StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121) Skoglund 2014
BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014

As you can see I1-M253 is not a Steppe haplotype.



That's enough to discard your theories based on chromosome Y.


Spaniards have the majority of R1b, Lithuanians- haplogroup N1c, which is completely inconsistent with their real origin.

i didnt say it was a steppe haplotype, all you did was sperg again lmao, you are getting cornered, heres the earliest pre i1 sample Germany_Neolithic_Ostorf:OST003.A0101 ,0.125205,0.11577,0.173853,0.172483,0.148643,0.056 057,0.010575,0.028153,0.069129,0.003645,-0.018999,-0.013788,0.022894,0.002752,0.048724,0.06298,0.0080 84,0.004561,-0.001383,0.039644,0.081481,0.013478,-0.035126,-0.120619,0.015567
it was found amongst a mostly pure whg male, the reason why i said it was a cwc haplogroup is becasue single grave culture additionally mixed with the ertobolle culture and picked up the i1 from them which is the most plausible

i posted frequencies of the clades of r1b and r1a that exists amongst modern scandanvians predominantly that has there exclusive origin in corded ware culture, yet you haven't done the same, in order to arbitrate here we need to have two parties that have better understanding of what we are talking about which you dont, you posted a graph that didnt potray any precise sub clade of the haplogroup, for example, tell me which clade the r1b1c belongs to, you got to figure that out before you progress here, untill then you are just goin in circles desperate to show that modern scandanvians arent largely derived from cwc. uou are getting too circular

[Joeary]

You haven't provided any proof yet.
What's more, you yourself confirmed in your graph that BA were exclusively related to R1a.






StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121) Skoglund 2014
BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014

As you can see I1-M253 is not a Steppe haplotype.



That's enough to discard your theories based on chromosome Y.


Spaniards have the majority of R1b, Lithuanians- haplogroup N1c, which is completely inconsistent with their real origin.

thinking that modern scandanvians derive mostly from shg isnt the hill you wanna die on, its worthless becuase its a fact that they have minimal to absolutely no contribution to modern scandis

"In terms of Y-DNA, the SHG genomes published in Allentoft et al. (2022) do not differ much from those published in previous studies. The Scandinavian hunter-gatherers carried almost exclusively I2 haplogroups (>98%), with a small minority of R1b-Y13202 (one sample, sample VK531 from Troms) and I-Z2699*/pre-I1 (one sample, sample SF11 from Gotland). The I2 lineages did not survive the arrival of steppe-derived populations, and neither did the EHG-derived R1b-Y13202. Those lineages were replaced by steppe-derived R1b-M269 and R1a-M417. However, the single I1/pre-I1 sample found on Mesolithic Gotland may or may not have been the progenitor of later I1 lineages (which all descend from a common ancestor (TMRCA 4600 ybp) in LN and Bronze Age Scandinavians (and by extension that found among later Germanic samples such as Anglo-Saxons, Goths, Lombards, Gepids, Vikings, et cetera) emerging from a severe bottleneck and exploding in frequency during the Nordic Bronze Age. We will get to that later in this article."

121594

i have to post this again, buts its okay man, i have experience dealing with special eds before
heres the study also

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.04.490594v1

[Joeary]

You haven't provided any proof yet.
What's more, you yourself confirmed in your graph that BA were exclusively related to R1a.






StoraFörvar11 5500-5250 BC Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island Sweden SHG pre-I1-M253 (xL121) Skoglund 2014
BAB5 5300-4900 BC* Balatonszemes-Bagódomb Hungary LBKT_Neolithic I1-M253 Szécsényi-Nagy 2014

As you can see I1-M253 is not a Steppe haplotype.



That's enough to discard your theories based on chromosome Y.


Spaniards have the majority of R1b, Lithuanians- haplogroup N1c, which is completely inconsistent with their real origin.

again, the specific sub clade of r1b that single grave had was R1B U106 that is one the most common haplotypes amongst modern scandis? i legit posted a sample of the earliest dated west corded ware bohemian individual with r1b-u106, west corded ware carried r1b-u106 and other clades predominantly while the eastern were mostly r1a, how hard is it to understand that?

[cass]

i didnt say it was a steppe haplotype, all you did was sperg again lmao, you are getting cornered, heres the earliest pre i1 sample Germany_Neolithic_Ostorf:OST003.A0101 ,0.125205,0.11577,0.173853,0.172483,0.148643,0.056 057,0.010575,0.028153,0.069129,0.003645,-0.018999,-0.013788,0.022894,0.002752,0.048724,0.06298,0.0080 84,0.004561,-0.001383,0.039644,0.081481,0.013478,-0.035126,-0.120619,0.015567
it was found amongst a mostly pure whg male, the reason why i said it was a cwc haplogroup is becasue single grave culture additionally mixed with the ertobolle culture and picked up the i1 from them which is the most plausible

i posted frequencies of the clades of r1b and r1a that exists amongst modern scandanvians predominantly that has there exclusive origin in corded ware culture, yet you haven't done the same, in order to arbitrate here we need to have two parties that have better understanding of what we are talking about which you dont, you posted a graph that didnt potray any precise sub clade of the haplogroup, for example, tell me which clade the r1b1c belongs to, you got to figure that out before you progress here, untill then you are just goin in circles desperate to show that modern scandanvians arent largely derived from cwc. uou are getting too circular

You continue to avoid answering basic question no 1.


You come to the conclusion yourself that the Battle Axe and especially the Single Grave absorbed a significant admixture of pre-Indo-European people both in Central Europe and Scandinavia itself. Not to mention later migrations to Scandinavia.

Let me just remind you that the dispute is not about whether the Scandinavians are largely descendants of the Steppe peoples (I myself provided a map of autosomal similarity to Yamnaya) but whether they can be representative as the closest to Andronovo, which is very doubtful considering large Neolithic and HG input.

[cass]

again, the specific sub clade of r1b that single grave had was R1B U106 that is one the most common haplotypes amongst modern scandis? i legit posted a sample of the earliest dated west corded ware bohemian individual with r1b-u106, west corded ware carried r1b-u106 and other clades predominantly while the eastern were mostly r1a, how hard is it to understand that?


I thought you already understood that autosomal analysis is incomparably more informative than any analysis based solely on the Y chromosome.

emerging from a severe bottleneck and exploding in frequency

[Joeary]

You continue to avoid answering basic question no 1.


You come to the conclusion yourself that the Battle Axe and especially the Single Grave absorbed a significant admixture of pre-Indo-European people both in Central Europe and Scandinavia itself. Not to mention later migrations to Scandinavia.

Let me just remind you that the dispute is not about whether the Scandinavians are largely descendants of the Steppe peoples (I myself provided a map of autosomal similarity to Yamnaya) but whether they can be representative as the closest to Andronovo, which is very doubtful considering large Neolithic and HG input.

they can, because of reasons posted above, they both largerly derive from corded ware ancestry, you can differentiate between british isle phenotpyic profile with that same logic as they are more bell beaker derived, autsomal ancestry has zero correlation with phenotypes, it all comes down to the ancestral componenetn. i think its a general consensus that bell beakers had brachy skulls and looked often dinarid DESPITE them coming extremely close to modern scandanvians in terms of autosomes, also they have addtional hg input doesnt really mean they have more hg ancestry overall
Target: Swedish
Distance: 15.7692% / 0.15769175
67.0 TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso


Target: Belarusian
Distance: 17.4535% / 0.17453455
65.6 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso



Target: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
Distance: 19.9781% / 0.19978119
66.8 TUR_Barcin_N
33.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso

slavs and proto indo iranians in total have higher if not equal hg and Anatolian farmer ancestry, you gotta remember that whg ancestry was deeply rooted in yamnaya/ehg and eef

but yeah, if you think its doubtful than you can also look at the skulls/reconstruction of sintashta+ modern occasional phenotypic overlaps in afghanistan/asia, but yeah, sintashta looked pretty germanic

[Joeary]

also there were no later substantial migrations of scandanvia, the reason why i brought up haplotypes in the first place is to omit such a moot notion.

[Joeary]

You continue to avoid answering basic question no 1.


You come to the conclusion yourself that the Battle Axe and especially the Single Grave absorbed a significant admixture of pre-Indo-European people both in Central Europe and Scandinavia itself. Not to mention later migrations to Scandinavia.

Let me just remind you that the dispute is not about whether the Scandinavians are largely descendants of the Steppe peoples (I myself provided a map of autosomal similarity to Yamnaya) but whether they can be representative as the closest to Andronovo, which is very doubtful considering large Neolithic and HG input.

you are a idiot, slavs come extremely close autosomal wise to germanics yet look nothing like them, because they have different proportion of corded ware ancestry (Dont conflate yamnaya ancestry with corded ware)

here are the driftless samples and distances between slavs mainly focusing on autosomal

Distance to: Ukrainian_driftless
0.00700826 Swedish_driftless
0.00887139 RusOrel_driftless
0.01255047 RusKurk_driftless
0.01262005 Norwegian_driftless
0.01459571 Belarus_driftless
0.01787517 Irish_driftless
0.01991171 Scottish_driftless



Distance to: Swedish_driftless
0.00700826 Ukrainian_driftless
0.00875064 Norwegian_driftless
0.01297862 Irish_driftless
0.01442965 Scottish_driftless
0.01570089 RusOrel_driftless
0.01908261 Belarus_driftless
0.01932993 RusKurk_driftless


Distance to: Scottish_driftless
0.00272353 Irish_driftless
0.00804274 Norwegian_driftless
0.01442965 Swedish_driftless
0.01991171 Ukrainian_driftless
0.02832393 RusOrel_driftless
0.03192910 RusKurk_driftless
0.03347858 Belarus_driftless

as you can see they are very close, if not entirely identical, its more complicated then that
autsomal doesnt dictate phenotype at all nor can it be representative of anything, its the fact that germanics derive most from corded ware predecessors that has correlation, plus they arent as drifted as slavs, nor are they as heterogenous as slavs, nor are they population wise dense as slavs, those factors listed latterly furthur help determining how well a certian substrate will conserve/preserve their ancestral phenotypes, germanics having zero large scale migrations/major drift helped them keep the same looks as corded ware groups, all of this can be applied to the proto indo iranians aswell.

[Veslan]

theres hallstatt and other north-west european types is concentrated mainly in the nursitani isolated region, there are mutliple studies that uphold no evidence of greek contribution to modern afghan ethnic groups

"Research into human DNA has emerged as a new and innovative tool being used to explore the genetic make-up of various populations in order to ascertain historical population movements. According to some genetic research (the source of which is disclosed under the references section below regarding a random sampling of Pashtun populations without specfication as to which Pashtun tribes were tested in western Pakistan) the anthropological evidence that the Pashto-speaking Pashtuns are related to other Iranian groups as well as the Burusho of the Northern Areas of Pakistan, who speak a language isolate. The genetic testing, though still in its initial phases, has not shown any substantial connection between the general Pashtun population sampled to the genetic markers found among most Greeks, Jews, or Arabs. What may be the case is that the gentically Pashtuns have slightly changed over time by due to vairous migrations in the area, while still maintaining an eastern Iranian base genetically overall. Ultimately, a much more detailed, transparent and wider sampling of Pashtun DNA will be required before a conclusive and generally representative answer of Pashto tribal origins can be answered."

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/p/Pashtun_people.htm#:~:text=The%20genetic%20testing %2C%20though%20still%20in%20its%20initial,markers% 20found%20among%20most%20Greeks%2C%20Jews%2C%20or% 20Arabs.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

also, since there is zero British admixture amongst punjabis who are lesser endogenous than afghans, i wouldint think think there can be amongst bunch of tribal dudes who will legit shoot someone for touching hands even if its an accident of the same gender

I know about the Nuristani people. Interesting, isolated ethnic group... But I wouldn't really say they have a Hallstatt element. Once again: they are high vaulted Iranian Nordoids/Cordeds, not low vaulted and more gracile Hallstatts.

[cass]

they can, because of reasons posted above, they both largerly derive from corded ware ancestry, you can differentiate between british isle phenotpyic profile with that same logic as they are more bell beaker derived, autsomal ancestry has zero correlation with phenotypes, it all comes down to the ancestral componenetn. i think its a general consensus that bell beakers had brachy skulls and looked often dinarid DESPITE them coming extremely close to modern scandanvians in terms of autosomes, also they have addtional hg input doesnt really mean they have more hg ancestry overall
Target: Swedish
Distance: 15.7692% / 0.15769175
67.0 TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso


Target: Belarusian
Distance: 17.4535% / 0.17453455
65.6 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso



Target: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
Distance: 19.9781% / 0.19978119
66.8 TUR_Barcin_N
33.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso

slavs and proto indo iranians in total have higher if not equal hg and Anatolian farmer ancestry, you gotta remember that whg ancestry was deeply rooted in yamnaya/ehg and eef

but yeah, if you think its doubtful than you can also look at the skulls/reconstruction of sintashta+ modern occasional phenotypic overlaps in afghanistan/asia, but yeah, sintashta looked pretty germanic

LOL

I don't know if there are more objective methods of verifying genetic similarity than autosomal analysis.


Certainly, examining the main index (the holy grail of the Coon era) leads to absurd results.
CI can change by up to 8 points in one generation only due to environmental factors.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10027042/
Such a secular trend is observed throughout Europe.


The CW was a CULTURE that included various local pre-Indo-European elements of CE.

Among the available CW samples, many have practically no Steppe admixture.

Corded_Ware_CHE_o:MX193___BC_2137___Coverage_45.56 %
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:STD003___BC_2927___Covera ge_31.62% 0.02169922
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI008.merged___BC_2809__ _Coverage_65.05% 0.02088220
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI009.D0101___BC_2635___ Coverage_38.37% 0.02275416
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI079___BC_2673___Covera ge_47.83%


The potential to track the steppe character is mainly in early samples.
They all correlate with modern poplutaions from the area east of the Baltic, in particular the Finno-Ugric.

[Joeary]

I know about the Nuristani people. Interesting, isolated ethnic group... But I wouldn't really say they have a Hallstatt element. Once again: they are high vaulted Iranian Nordoids/Cordeds, not low vaulted and more gracile Hallstatts.

its not the predominance but it still exists, also the prevelance of irano nordid is due to iranid natives mixing of asia with the corded/hallstatt nordids, i highly doubt it existed amongst the original proto indo iranians and such

[Joeary]

LOL

I don't know if there are more objective methods of verifying genetic similarity than autosomal analysis.


Certainly, examining the main index (the holy grail of the Coon era) leads to absurd results.
CI can change by up to 8 points in one generation only due to environmental factors.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10027042/
Such a secular trend is observed throughout Europe.


The CW was a CULTURE that included various local pre-Indo-European elements of CE.

Among the available CW samples, many have practically no Steppe admixture.

Corded_Ware_CHE_o:MX193___BC_2137___Coverage_45.56 %
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:STD003___BC_2927___Covera ge_31.62% 0.02169922
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI008.merged___BC_2809__ _Coverage_65.05% 0.02088220
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI009.D0101___BC_2635___ Coverage_38.37% 0.02275416
Corded_Ware_CZE_noSteppe:VLI079___BC_2673___Covera ge_47.83%


The potential to track the steppe character is mainly in early samples.
They all correlate with modern poplutaions from the area east of the Baltic, in particular the Finno-Ugric.

this doesn't make any sense nor does it refute my position, autosomal is good for looking at genetic affinity but derivation of ancestral heritage is better to estimate their actual cluster, ci can only change when their is a exogenous input, aside from that there is no reason for such a shift, its just not plausible

[Joeary]

I know about the Nuristani people. Interesting, isolated ethnic group... But I wouldn't really say they have a Hallstatt element. Once again: they are high vaulted Iranian Nordoids/Cordeds, not low vaulted and more gracile Hallstatts.


121598

here are a few reconstructions of sintashta-andronovo, the far right guy clearly has a short vault, overall fits the keltic nordid criteria easily, also the middle guy is most definently faelid

[Joeary]

I know about the Nuristani people. Interesting, isolated ethnic group... But I wouldn't really say they have a Hallstatt element. Once again: they are high vaulted Iranian Nordoids/Cordeds, not low vaulted and more gracile Hallstatts.

121604
also heres a strongly hallstatt looking pakistani man, low vaulted, very gracile with stark compressed gonial angles looks similar to these textbook examples

121603

121602

with minor iranid/east nordid influence for sure, but predominantly hallstatt nordid

[Sacrificed Ram]

I cannot even imagine how it was, but should be surprising.

[cass]

this doesn't make any sense nor does it refute my position, autosomal is good for looking at genetic affinity but derivation of ancestral heritage is better to estimate their actual cluster, ci can only change when their is a exogenous input, aside from that there is no reason for such a shift, its just not plausible

LOL
EE is the indigenous region of the Steppe people. So it's more than likely.

Steppe MLBA-like ancestry among modern populations.
https://i.ibb.co/GRHJtrK/modern-steppe-ancestry-map.png (https://ibb.co/PgDY9V7)

Srubnaya ancestry among modern populations
https://i.ibb.co/2qwXNrf/kriging-modern-srubnaya-ancestry.png (https://ibb.co/kKpY1TW)

[cass]

121598

here are a few reconstructions of sintashta-andronovo, the far right guy clearly has a short vault, overall fits the keltic nordid criteria easily, also the middle guy is most definently faelid

Post of the Year.:bored:

[cass]

also there were no later substantial migrations of scandanvia, the reason why i brought up haplotypes in the first place is to omit such a moot notion.

You have some evidence for that?

https://i.ibb.co/DCDCgtY/europe-immigrant-population.png (https://ibb.co/WyWyp60)

[cass]

121604
also heres a strongly hallstatt looking pakistani man, low vaulted, very gracile with stark compressed gonial angles looks similar to these textbook examples

121603

121602

with minor iranid/east nordid influence for sure, but predominantly hallstatt nordid

LOL

No, Pakistanis are not like Andronovo
https://i.ibb.co/qpddc8R/Vahaduo-Global-25-West-Eurasia-PCA-2.png (https://ibb.co/gJ33f8D)

[cass]

you are a idiot, slavs come extremely close autosomal wise to germanics yet look nothing like them, because they have different proportion of corded ware ancestry (Dont conflate yamnaya ancestry with corded ware)

LOL
Thank God we were still divided by the Baltic Sea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6HEiSipJq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJQ08nzl5A

[Joeary]

LOL
EE is the indigenous region of the Steppe people. So it's more than likely.

Steppe MLBA-like ancestry among modern populations.
https://i.ibb.co/GRHJtrK/modern-steppe-ancestry-map.png (https://ibb.co/PgDY9V7)

Srubnaya ancestry among modern populations
https://i.ibb.co/2qwXNrf/kriging-modern-srubnaya-ancestry.png (https://ibb.co/kKpY1TW)

indigenous or not, they are heavily drifted lmao, not the best exemplary at all, also put tur_barcin and east european hunter gatherer in and the corded ware like ancestry will reduce like how your dick shrivels up as soon as you jump into the pool expecting it to be warm but its super cold for the slavs

Target: Estonian
Distance: 6.5356% / 0.06535571
48.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
27.6 POL_Globular_Amphora
23.6 West_Eurasian

Target: Swedish
Distance: 3.0688% / 0.03068760
66.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
27.8 POL_Globular_Amphora
5.4 West_Eurasian

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 6.7945% / 0.06794506
57.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
28.2 POL_Globular_Amphora
14.2 West_Eurasian
Target: Norwegian
Distance: 2.7630% / 0.02762973
70.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
27.8 POL_Globular_Amphora
1.4 West_Eurasian
seems like they looked like norweigans, the corded ware like ancestry remains the same for scandis with and without the east hunter gatherer/tur barcin component added for the model, but for slavs it drastically changes.
but yeah, still its the Germanics with most steppe mlba/corded ware like ancestry, not only they have high corded ware like ancestry but the fits are also much more decent for germanics hahahahah, slavs are just their own thing man.

Distance to: Belarusian
0.08054015 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA



Distance to: Swedish
0.05727011 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
cant forget about this distance on g25, Germanics comes closest because of g25 actually takes drift in regards

[Joeary]

You have some evidence for that?

https://i.ibb.co/DCDCgtY/europe-immigrant-population.png (https://ibb.co/WyWyp60)

thats the immigrant population of recent migrations, i was referring to how no subsequent migration and those are mostly extremely endogenous muslims that wont go outside of their races, has genetically effected scandis genetically like rest of europe, both the modern scandanvians and nordic bronze age people, they still retain their corded ware roots the strongest, also its a bummer that the genes/antiquity of the nords and the unique phenotypes will be diluted, to me they were regarded as a rich populous for anthropology, retrospectively

[Joeary]

LOL
Thank God we were still divided by the Baltic Sea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6HEiSipJq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYJQ08nzl5A

yeah good thing they are divided, wouldn't want the odd subhuman looks of germanics into any other lands.

[Joeary]

LOL

No, Pakistanis are not like Andronovo
https://i.ibb.co/qpddc8R/Vahaduo-Global-25-West-Eurasia-PCA-2.png (https://ibb.co/gJ33f8D)

you are a bit dense, the reason i posted the white looking pakistani is becuase he inherited his looks from the andronovo, i know they didnt look like the andronovoians, but some cases the isolated dardic groups tend to conserve the looks of their proto indo iranian ancestors, its common knowledge

[cass]

yeah good thing they are divided, wouldn't want the odd subhuman looks of germanics into any other lands.

You fool, Anyone who has been to Sweden sees the truth

[Sacrificed Ram]

LOL
EE is the indigenous region of the Steppe people. So it's more than likely.

Steppe MLBA-like ancestry among modern populations.
https://i.ibb.co/GRHJtrK/modern-steppe-ancestry-map.png (https://ibb.co/PgDY9V7)

Srubnaya ancestry among modern populations
https://i.ibb.co/2qwXNrf/kriging-modern-srubnaya-ancestry.png (https://ibb.co/kKpY1TW)

This is problemathic, because you are using the current population placement, than their real placement in the past.

Just remember the historical events like iranics as scytho-sarmarthians were replaced by turkics and mongolians in Steppe area, to find iranics now you need go to near east or the doors of China (Tajiks). Or the rising of slavs was mainly a culturalization process than a genetic/racial phenomenon, with expenses of iranics, turkics and finno-uralics... among others...

[Joeary]

You fool, Anyone who has been to Sweden sees the truth

https://www.facebook.com/studemaskolan/photos

absolute sub humanity, look at that cringe, you have blacks and Muslims everywhere

[Veslan]

121598

here are a few reconstructions of sintashta-andronovo, the far right guy clearly has a short vault, overall fits the keltic nordid criteria easily, also the middle guy is most definently faelid

Far right seems low vaulted indeed, which was rare for his culture but occured in minority. With his roundish face and overall gracileness I think he fits the Gracile Med type (yup, it existed among early Indo-Europeans in minority) the best. He is not KN because we don't see neither dinarization nor any Baskid influence, and his face is roundish and rather gracile, not sharp featured as in KNs.

Gracile Med skull for comparison:
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/gracilmed-sk.jpg

Guy in the middle seems more like a Nordic-CM hybrid than a pure CM (or what you call "Faelid", not primitive featured enough). I'd classify him as Iranian Nordoid.

Tbh I prefer classifying skulls than reconstructions.

[Veslan]

121604
also heres a strongly hallstatt looking pakistani man, low vaulted, very gracile with stark compressed gonial angles looks similar to these textbook examples

Okay with this one you might be right. He seems to be mostly Keltic Nordic.
But honestly he looks part British.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Existed people with C3 yDNA in Andronovo, while all mtDNA were european related...

Even before Ghengis Khan mongolians were very extrusives...

[Joeary]

Okay with this one you might be right. He seems to be mostly Keltic Nordic.
But honestly he looks part British.

yup, its because of proto indo iranian ancestry, if he were to be part british he'd basically look mediterranean or northern Pakistani instead of a dude with a predominantly nw european look, i can easily show you a dude whos half south indian and swedish and he looks comically northern indian

heres another reconstruction of a proto indo iranian he is a kelticized north atlantid imo
121638

most people agree that he is keltic nordid, but that one dude who classified him as north atlantid is good at what he does, also i can see it, but anyways, iron age phenotypes dont exist. i also said hes "Celtic" to omit an bias since most people classify based on geography and are reluctant to capitulate to the obvious fact that all nw/northern european phenotypes have their origin in bronze age corded ware culture.

heres the original post https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?373462-classify-celtic-man

[Joeary]

Far right seems low vaulted indeed, which was rare for his culture but occured in minority. With his roundish face and overall gracileness I think he fits the Gracile Med type (yup, it existed among early Indo-Europeans in minority) the best. He is not KN because we don't see neither dinarization nor any Baskid influence, and his face is roundish and rather gracile, not sharp featured as in KNs.

Gracile Med skull for comparison:
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/gracilmed-sk.jpg

Guy in the middle seems more like a Nordic-CM hybrid than a pure CM (or what you call "Faelid", not primitive featured enough). I'd classify him as Iranian Nordoid.

Tbh I prefer classifying skulls than reconstructions.

just call him nordo-cromagnid instead, his phenotype is most prevalent in northern europea and not asia anyways, also never seen such a phenotype occur asians, whether its nuristanis kalash or kurds

[Joeary]

just call him nordo-cromagnid instead, his phenotype is most prevalent in northern europea and not asia anyways, also never seen such a phenotype occur asians, whether its nuristanis kalash or kurds

also heres another angel of the guy from far right, he looks more atlantid or nordo-med to me

121639

[Lobster]

East Nordid for sure

[Joeary]

East Nordid for sure

nah they weren't, they were mostly nordic of northern European type, just because they lived in eastern europe doesnt mean they looked east nordid or like slavs, grow up and read a book here and there

[Veslan]

heres another reconstruction of a proto indo iranian he is a kelticized north atlantid imo
121638



High vaulted, therefore North Pontid
Somewhat dinaricized (not "kelticized") perhaps, but it happens for North Pontids

https://dzieje.pl/sites/default/files/styles/open_article_750x0_/public/202207/R_Lewandowski_.jpg?itok=A5-sv03r

[Veslan]

nah they weren't, they were mostly nordic of northern European type, just because they lived in eastern europe doesnt mean they looked east nordid or like slavs, grow up and read a book here and there

They surely looked closer to ancient Slavs than to ancient Germanics, at least considering cranial dimensions.

[Joeary]

They surely looked closer to ancient Slavs than to ancient Germanics, at least considering cranial dimensions.

nah, theres no substantial data from the germanic populous to really decipher which would be which lmao, but yeah they looked closer to modern germanics than slavs for sure, early slavs still resembled modern slavs so its not really attributable

[Joeary]

High vaulted, therefore North Pontid
Somewhat dinaricized (not "kelticized") perhaps, but it happens for North Pontids

https://dzieje.pl/sites/default/files/styles/open_article_750x0_/public/202207/R_Lewandowski_.jpg?itok=A5-sv03r
the andronovo still looks keltic nordid or north atlantid, despite the high vault, his general facial features are still north atlantid like

[Joeary]

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[Joeary]

They surely looked closer to ancient Slavs than to ancient Germanics, at least considering cranial dimensions.

121692

but yeah, its pretty much known that atlantid types and kelto nordids most certainly constituted a large portion of the phenotypes amongst the proto indo iranians and hallstatt as well

you can observe from the above attachment of another proto indo iranian who is obviously kelto-saxon, or keltic nordid with Hallstatt like influence you'd like to call it

121693

heres another extremely british looking andronovo reconstruction, she doesn't quite fit the corded nordid criteria nor does she entirely fit the Hallstatt criteria, she is harbors elements from both, but latter is the predominance, her face/forehead is more hallstatt or probably even keltic nordid like and perhaps her high vault being corded, overall she's predominantly hallstatt-keltic nordid, both have compressed gonial angles and the bottom one especially is gracile aswell, reminds me off a textbook example, cant seem to find it

[Joeary]

They surely looked closer to ancient Slavs than to ancient Germanics, at least considering cranial dimensions.

Forgot to mention their isolated and occasional descendants whomst inherited their phenotypes, I can literally show you a near doppelganger of sven nordin who fits the tronder criteria from nuristan lmao and that speaks absolute volumes, who the fuck would expect a extremely similar looking man to a norwegian actor all the way in afghanistan, you'd find zero such cases in nw euros and slavs and even germanics, really shows you there was zero phenotypic and genetic differences between proto indo iranians and modern and ancient germanics, makes sense since both populations are basically unadmixed corded ware people genetically.

[Veslan]

121692

but yeah, its pretty much known that atlantid types and kelto nordids most certainly constituted a large portion of the phenotypes amongst the proto indo iranians and hallstatt as well

you can observe from the above attachment of another proto indo iranian who is obviously kelto-saxon, or keltic nordid with Hallstatt like influence you'd like to call it

121693

heres another extremely british looking andronovo reconstruction, she doesn't quite fit the corded nordid criteria nor does she entirely fit the Hallstatt criteria, she is harbors elements from both, but latter is the predominance, her face/forehead is more hallstatt or probably even keltic nordid like and perhaps her high vault being corded, overall she's predominantly hallstatt-keltic nordid, both have compressed gonial angles and the bottom one especially is gracile aswell, reminds me off a textbook example, cant seem to find it

Can you stop posting high vaulted Eastern types and wrongly classify them as low vaulted Western types already?
It's getting boring by now.

Just get it already, high cranial vault = not fucking Keltic Nordid or Hallstatt Nordid.


Forgot to mention their isolated and occasional descendants whomst inherited their phenotypes, I can literally show you a near doppelganger of sven nordin who fits the tronder criteria from nuristan lmao and that speaks absolute volumes, who the fuck would expect a extremely similar looking man to a norwegian actor all the way in afghanistan, you'd find zero such cases in nw euros and slavs and even germanics, really shows you there was zero phenotypic and genetic differences between proto indo iranians and modern and ancient germanics, makes sense since both populations are basically unadmixed corded ware people genetically.

Yea, guess what, Scandinavians are partially descendants of Corded Ware culture, therefore some of them look more Corded than Hallstatt (especially in Norway), and some of them look similiar to Indo-Iranians who are also descended from Corded Ware culture.

This still doesn't mean Proto-Indo-Iranians were mostly fucking Hallstatt or Keltic Nordids, metrics don't check out.



who the fuck would expect a extremely similar looking man to a norwegian actor all the way in afghanistan, you'd find zero such cases in nw euros and slavs and even germanics
Lol


makes sense since both populations are basically unadmixed corded ware people genetically
read a book or something

p.s. your "textbook Hallstatt example" is a Ukrainian woman by the name Iyrine Nevmyvanaya, also obviously not Hallstatt when you look at her other photos

[Joeary]

Can you stop posting high vaulted Eastern types and wrongly classify them as low vaulted Western types already?
It's getting boring by now.

Just get it already, high cranial vault = not fucking Keltic Nordid or Hallstatt Nordid.



Yea, guess what, Scandinavians are partially descendants of Corded Ware culture, therefore some of them look more Corded than Hallstatt (especially in Norway), and some of them look similiar to Indo-Iranians who are also descended from Corded Ware culture.

This still doesn't mean Proto-Indo-Iranians were mostly fucking Hallstatt or Keltic Nordids, metrics don't check out.



Lol


read a book or something

p.s. your "textbook Hallstatt example" is a Ukrainian woman by the name Iyrine Nevmyvanaya, also obviously not Hallstatt when you look at her other photos

Whoops, i triggered a mega rage out, lmao, but yeah the old lady isn't corded nor "eastern" looking in any sense, I never said they were mostly keltic or hallstatt, I just said that such phenotypes existed in large portion, however corded nordid was definently predomiant, also they both looks westerner exclusively lmao, ask anyone aside from biased polak man called Veslan

[Viśvāmitra]

Probably Eastern Nordic ? type as their ancestors were from Fatyanovo culture of the Russian Forest lands. I think that you can find such features even to this day in Eastern Europe.

[turbosat]

Forgot to mention their isolated and occasional descendants whomst inherited their phenotypes, I can literally show you a near doppelganger of sven nordin who fits the tronder criteria from nuristan lmao and that speaks absolute volumes, who the fuck would expect a extremely similar looking man to a norwegian actor all the way in afghanistan, you'd find zero such cases in nw euros and slavs and even germanics, really shows you there was zero phenotypic and genetic differences between proto indo iranians and modern and ancient germanics, makes sense since both populations are basically unadmixed corded ware people genetically.

Its nothing to get so obsessed about as you are, but post the Nuristani anyway.

Here are some Nuristanis. Btw its easy to see they are not Pashtuns.

https://i0.wp.com/www.madrerussia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Nuristani.jpg?resize=1200%2C695

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/71788602/photo/us-solders-in-afghanistan.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=WNmP1QQrycg_sswsL97FTFWGu2WEA3n8eyraBnhrgsY=
https://dispatchesfrompinehurst.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/arrival.jpg?w=941&zoom=2
https://dispatchesfrompinehurst.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/6.jpg?w=940&zoom=2


Not sure if the guy on the horse is Nuristani, but he is Afghan.
https://dispatchesfrompinehurst.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/ana-gen.jpg?w=941&zoom=2

[Joeary]

Probably Eastern Nordic ? type as their ancestors were from Fatyanovo culture of the Russian Forest lands. I think that you can find such features even to this day in Eastern Europe.

they werent, they were western nordic. also russians have zero ancestry from them