Is every single ethnic English person a mixture of both Britannic and Saxon?

[Sikeliot]

What I mean by this is the following:

is there any ethnic English person in places like East Anglia or Kent (the most Anglo-Saxon regions) who has no native Brittonic/Celtic ancestry?

is there any ethnic English person in places like Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Cumbria (the most native Brittonic areas) who has no Anglo-Saxon ancestry?

[Bloody]

Several counties of SW England and Wales are about 90%+ Britonnic. On the other Hand East anglia is on average 2/3 Britonnic and 1/3 AS/Norman/VIking

[Sikeliot]

Several counties of SW England and Wales are about 90%+ Britonnic. On the other Hand East anglia is on average 2/3 Britonnic and 1/3 AS/Norman/VIking

Which parts of SW England would you assume to be 90% Brittonic?

I would assume Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, and Dorset, since these areas where the western periphery of Saxon territory, to be the most Britannic, but I also think all of the counties bordering Wales up to Cumbria to be similar, including Worcestershire and Shropshire.

These areas should not have significant Saxon input.

http://dide.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/map-of-england-counties-one-more-showing-english-uk.jpg

[Norb]

I would like to know the answer to this question about my own DNA

[Grace O'Malley]

What I mean by this is the following:

is there any ethnic English person in places like East Anglia or Kent (the most Anglo-Saxon regions) who has no native Brittonic/Celtic ancestry?

is there any ethnic English person in places like Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Cumbria (the most native Brittonic areas) who has no Anglo-Saxon ancestry?

The People of the British Isles study will give you some answers to these sort of questions.

https://media.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/nature/journal/v519/n7543/images/nature14230-f2.jpg

[Oneeye]

Of course. These sound like rhetorical questions.



https://pre00.deviantart.net/66eb/th/pre/f/2014/313/d/4/anglo_saxon_migration_by_arminius1871-d85tqiw.png

[Bobby Martnen]

The British Royal family is entirely Saxon and not at all Anglo.

[Fantomas]

Of course. These sound like rhetorical questions.


https://pre00.deviantart.net/66eb/th/pre/f/2014/313/d/4/anglo_saxon_migration_by_arminius1871-d85tqiw.png
Myth about Anglo-Saxons mass displacement has been debunked by archaeologists many years ago


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7jrlgkR1fE

[Sikeliot]

The People of the British Isles study will give you some answers to these sort of questions.

https://media.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/nature/journal/v519/n7543/images/nature14230-f2.jpg


That study confuses me because it puts the highest amount of German ancestry in Wales, when it should definitely not be that way.

[Fantomas]

That study confuses me because it puts the highest amount of German ancestry in Wales, when it should definitely not be that way.
GER6? As you can see it's a western German subclade, so it must be kind of pre-Germanic. Anglo-Saxon migration related associated with GER3 and more northern ones.

[Journeyman26]

Throw some Norman in there and you got it. Due to reproductive isolation that comes with being an island nation, I don't really see a reasonable way that any ethnic English wouldn't have genes from Briton, Saxon and Norman sources.

[Bosniensis]

What I mean by this is the following:

is there any ethnic English person in places like East Anglia or Kent (the most Anglo-Saxon regions) who has no native Brittonic/Celtic ancestry?

is there any ethnic English person in places like Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Cumbria (the most native Brittonic areas) who has no Anglo-Saxon ancestry?

Yet those English people call themselves "British", but when I say that I am "Balkan" whole Greece, Italy and entire World tell's me I should go to mental hospital.

[Kelmendasi]

Yet those English people call themselves "British", but when I say that I am "Balkan" whole Greece, Italy and entire World tell's me I should go to mental hospital.
Difference is that you claim to be native.

[Sikeliot]

GER6? As you can see it's a western German subclade, so it must be kind of pre-Germanic. Anglo-Saxon migration related associated with GER3 and more northern ones.


If GER3 is Anglo-Saxon, then it is quite low in England. The question I have is what is FRA17? It cannot possibly be Saxon but whatever it is, is higher in England than in Wales. Could this be Norman, or possibly an ancient Celtic group that had a larger presence in England and not in Wales?

[Fantomas]

If GER3 is Anglo-Saxon, then it is quite low in England. The question I have is what is FRA17? It cannot possibly be Saxon but whatever it is, is higher in England than in Wales. Could this be Norman, or possibly an ancient Celtic group that had a larger presence in England and not in Wales?
Anglo-Saxon is not just GER3, but might be DEN18 and Southern Swedish as well, anyway GER3 is more common in central,southern England and Yorkshire and is absent in Wales and Ireland, so it makes sence

[Petalpusher]

GER6? As you can see it's a western German subclade, so it must be kind of pre-Germanic. Anglo-Saxon migration related associated with GER3 and more northern ones.

All the samples are modern but this is an admixture run. Similar process than if we were to put various regions of UK into a nmonte with a selected set of samples from Europe (of course they are not going to select Bulgaria or Saami) and see which ones are prefered to build a model with what's available, so basically, some French, German and Scandinavian. The sort of model Brits here often get even in 3-4 pop approximations on Gedmatch.

Wales get more German because it doesn't get any northern France. There may or may not be a real reason for that or just an admixture artefact. Maybe if we were to swap one for the other, the fit wouldn't degrade by much, this one could be just a little better and the publish the best one, unlike the kind of extended lists we get on calculators. This is the limitation of trying to model modern with modern, especially when they are close to each other to begin with.

[Sikeliot]

Anglo-Saxon is not just GER3, but might be DEN18 and Southern Swedish as well, anyway GER3 is more common in central,southern England and Yorkshire and is absent in Wales and Ireland, so it makes sence


The English still appear more French-like overall, which to me shows most of their ancestry is Britannic and not Saxon. I think the western German type DNA is a remnant of Belgic tribes.

[Fantomas]

All the samples are modern but this is an admixture run. Similar process than if we were to put various regions of UK into a nmonte with a selected set of samples from Europe (of course they are not going to select Bulgaria or Saami) and see which ones are prefered to build a model with what's available, so basically, some French, German and Scandinavian. The sort of model Brits here often get even in 3-4 pop approximations on Gedmatch.

Wales get more German because it doesn't get any northern France. There may or may not be a real reason for that or just an admixture artefact. Maybe if we were to swap one for the other, the fit wouldn't degrade by much, this one could be just a little better and the publish the best one, unlike the kind of extended lists we get on calculators.
:confused: FRA14 absolutely dominates in Wales no less than West Germanics. Anyway, just look at the GER3 location. NE Scotland got some small portion of it, but West Scotland-not, i think it's a very good indication

[Fantomas]

The English still appear more French-like overall, which to me shows most of their ancestry is Britannic and not Saxon. I think the western German type DNA is a remnant of Belgic tribes.
Yeah, why not. I think its a most logical explanation of this scheme

[Petalpusher]

:confused: FRA14 is absolutely dominates in Wales no less than West Germanics. Anyway, just look at the GER3 location. NE Scotland got some small portion of it, but West Scotland-not, i think it's a very good indication

FR17 is 0% in Wales, but do you think FR14 and FR17 or GER3 and GER6 are totally different? Of course not. Same effect in Pembrokeshire.

If anything it just tells us UK in general likes to be modeled with this type of DNA the most, but the proportions should not be taken too literally, way too much overlap in there. If we were to remove one of the 3, results could be very different. Maybe DEN 18 represents something more Saxon.

[RandomGuy20]

Here's a map I found on Facebook recently, hope it helps.
https://i.imgur.com/Ip5zZ1C.png

[Gwydion]

I've read that Eastern England, which is supposed to be the most Germanic, is on average something like 30% Anglo-Saxon/Germanic and that this fluctuates as high as 40% in some areas of Eastern England and as low as 20% in others. If that is true I would imagine that while most English people have some mixture of both groups, across England the pre-Saxon/Celtic would be predominate especially outside of the East.

[Fantomas]

FR17 is 0% in Wales, but do you think FR14 and FR17 or GER3 and GER6 are totally different? Of course not. Same effect in Pembrokeshire.

If anything it just tells us UK in general likes to be modeled with this type of DNA the most, but the proportions should not be taken too literally, way too much overlap in there. If we were to remove one of the 3, results could be very different.
Scandinavian DNA correlation with historical Norse settlements on Orkneys illustrates it even much better than "Germanic" and "Celtic". I don't want to say that this is 100% evidence of some pre-historical migrations, but this data speaks for itself very clearly and should not be ignored.


Maybe DEN 18 represents something more Saxon.
Agree. Also i've heard many times that scientists can not separate Saxons of 6 century from Danish of 10 century genetically. So Danish subclades could be fueled by later migrations at the time of viking invasions

[Fantomas]

Here's a map I found on Facebook recently, hope it helps.

https://i.imgur.com/czct4hG.png
Left bank of lower Rhine settled by Celtic tribes in pre-Roman and Roman times, including Menapii the north-easternmost Celts, which had hamlets and farms on the right bank as well. Caesar admirably described their war against the first Germanic tribes which were newcomers there and tryed to steal Menapii ships and boats to cross the Rhine.

[Gwydion]

Here's what I mentioned I had read....I forget the source now, I just saved the text for future study:

https://i.imgur.com/BMBeoFx.png

https://i.imgur.com/1pprEN2.png

[Bloody]

Yet those English people call themselves "British", but when I say that I am "Balkan" whole Greece, Italy and entire World tell's me I should go to mental hospital.

They are mostly brythonic origin, in no shape or form and average group of English people look more like Danes/Northern Germans/Dutch than they do like the IRish. Most of the time the English are nearly undishtingable from the Irish, save weird Irish pehnotypes such as Wayne rooney.

[Norb]

They are mostly brythonic origin, in no shape or form and average group of English people look more like Danes/Northern Germans/Dutch than they do like the IRish. Most of the time the English are nearly undishtingable from the Irish, save weird Irish pehnotypes such as Wayne rooney.

true

[JohnSmith]

I am not sure.

[Sikeliot]

They are mostly brythonic origin, in no shape or form and average group of English people look more like Danes/Northern Germans/Dutch than they do like the IRish. Most of the time the English are nearly undishtingable from the Irish, save weird Irish pehnotypes such as Wayne rooney.

Those distinct Irish phenotypes could be due to some parts of Ireland having greater genetic isolation, such that even other parts of Ireland absorbed just enough admixture to dilute it, and the English, even if being mostly pre-Saxon, would have diluted them further.

[Tong]

i live in east anglia and i dont look anglo saxon in any way....Lmao.

[Tong]

and almost all of my family come from the east aswell
my mothers side looks more nordic
but the east is the most nordic/germanic for sure, yeah

[Sikeliot]

and almost all of my family come from the east aswell
my mothers side looks more nordic
but the east is the most nordic/germanic for sure, yeah


If you look at the chart I posted some of the red "south-central England" cluster drifts more toward the "Celtic" shifted populations. My guess is the red dots furthest to the right of the chart have the most Anglo-Saxon ancestry and the rest of that red cluster drifting toward Yorkshire, Devon, and Welsh borders are those who have less.

[Sikeliot]

and almost all of my family come from the east aswell
my mothers side looks more nordic
but the east is the most nordic/germanic for sure, yeah


If you look at the chart I posted some of the red "south-central England" cluster drifts more toward the "Celtic" shifted populations. My guess is the red dots furthest to the right of the chart have the most Anglo-Saxon ancestry and the rest of that red cluster drifting toward Yorkshire, Devon, and Welsh borders are those who have less.