Any good reads about the Koman culture

[Div1]

I've been trying everywhere to find something documenting the history of Albania from 500-900 AD. But most of the things I've found were just minor details. Stuff like "The Slavs invaded this" or "The Avars destroyed this building" Are there any good books or pdfs about the Koman culture I can pick up or download?

[Div1]

bump

[Trilecce]

I've been trying everywhere to find something documenting the history of Albania from 500-900 AD. But most of the things I've found were just minor details. Stuff like "The Slavs invaded this" or "The Avars destroyed this building" Are there any good books or pdfs about the Koman culture I can pick up or download?

Except for modern archeology (which is heavily piliticized in our area) there is nothing to learn really. You should become an archeologist and some pioneer work.

[Div1]

Except for modern archeology (which is heavily piliticized in our area) there is nothing to learn really. You should become an archeologist and some pioneer work.

Yeah, sadly that's all we got.

[Trilecce]

Yeah, sadly that's all we got.

It would be so for all our neighbours too, the only ones preserving ancient knowledge through the middle ages where the churches and mosques. Their churches survived, ours did not. And with our church went also our history. Even so, the small eclesiastical organisations we had could not have preserved much more than family lineages. We are a very small people who once were even smaller. People forget that not long ago there were not even 1'000'000 albanians in the world. Going back to the middle ages when all of us fled into the mountains, we could not have been more than even 100'000 people.

[Div1]

It would be so for all our neighbours too, the only ones preserving ancient knowledge through the middle ages where the churches and mosques. Their churches survived, ours did not. And with our church went also our history. Even so, the small eclesiastical organisations we had could not have preserved much more than family lineages. We are a very small people who once were even smaller. People forget that not long ago there were not even 1'000'000 albanians in the world. Going back to the middle ages when all of us fled into the mountains, we could not have been more than even 100'000 people.

This is true, one of the older documents I found (from Elsie's website) was a Byzantine text talking about the Emperor counterrattacking albanian herdsmen who had stolen sheep from the lower lying cities. At the time, most of the cities were probably a mix of Albanians, Greeks, and Slavs. Since most Albanians were rural herdsmen or farmers.

Even then, for instance other than details about a few lords (Progon, Golem, etc.) We have a very scant records about Albania from 600-1100ad. It blows my mind how little we know about it, and judging from the oldest Albanian document we have. It was fairly advanced in its vocabulary, so its a matter of FACT that there was a literary culture in Albania predating it. We just have to find the damn texts. These lords had to have had scribes, note keepers, books, priests. Someone who could read or write!

[Trilecce]

This is true, one of the older documents I found (from Elsie's website) was a Byzantine text talking about the Emperor counterrattacking albanian herdsmen who had stolen sheep from the lower lying cities. At the time, most of the cities were probably a mix of Albanians, Greeks, and Slavs. Since most Albanians were rural herdsmen or farmers.

Even then, for instance other than details about a few lords (Progon, Golem, etc.) We have a very scant records about Albania from 600-1100ad. It blows my mind how little we know about it, and judging from the oldest Albanian document we have. It was fairly advanced in its vocabulary, so its a matter of FACT that there was a literary culture in Albania predating it. We just have to find the damn texts. These lords had to have had scribes, note keepers, books, priests. Someone who could read or write!

Those learned people were clergymen. All of our early history comes from albanophon priests. Our poor little society could not support a larger eclesiastical community like for example the greeks. And considering that turks did not let our churches survive like they let the churches of greeks bulgars and serbs survive. And also considering that these larger eclesiastical organisations had no regard for a dying catholic church in a country like albania. I am always wondering how it is that we still exist as a separate ethnos.

[Hulu]

Yes, unfortunately Albania was burned to the ground quite a few times by turks in their efforts to conquer the country, churches would have given us a lot of info regarding history and language.

The first attested document is a joke obviously as even earlier than that Albanian books are mentioned

While the earliest attested Albanian texts are from over a century later, the existence of Albanian texts is mentioned in 1332 in Directorium ad passagium faciendum (by a French monk whose identity is uncertain): licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in uso et in omnibus suis libris 'The Albanians have a language different from Latin, although they use Latin letters in their books

[Div1]

Those learned people were clergymen. All of our early history comes from albanophon priests. Our poor little society could not support a larger eclesiastical community like for example the greeks. And considering that turks did not let our churches survive like they let the churches of greeks bulgars and serbs survive. And also considering that these larger eclesiastical organisations had no regard for a dying catholic church in a country like albania. I am always wondering how it is that we still exist as a separate ethnos.

It’s amazing we had the tradition we had in Calabria. There was an Illyrian college in that region, I wonder if they have any old records. �� The Vatican too probably has a large amount of undiscovered documents, perhaps brought to Italy by Albanians fleeing the Turks.

Our ethos was preserved by a Post-enlightenment rebirth thankfully.

[Trilecce]

It’s amazing we had the tradition we had in Calabria. There was an Illyrian college in that region, I wonder if they have any old records. �� The Vatican too probably has a large amount of undiscovered documents, perhaps brought to Italy by Albanians fleeing the Turks.

Our ethos was preserved by a Post-enlightenment rebirth thankfully.

It was never preserved, it was reinvented.

[Dibran]

I've been trying everywhere to find something documenting the history of Albania from 500-900 AD. But most of the things I've found were just minor details. Stuff like "The Slavs invaded this" or "The Avars destroyed this building" Are there any good books or pdfs about the Koman culture I can pick up or download?

Not sure if you have already read this:

http://edizionicafoscari.unive.it/media/pdf/books/978-88-6969-114-0/978-88-6969-114-0-ch-10_fBoYPJI.pdf

[Div1]

Not sure if you have already read this:

http://edizionicafoscari.unive.it/media/pdf/books/978-88-6969-114-0/978-88-6969-114-0-ch-10_fBoYPJI.pdf

This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, thanks!

So who were the people who lived in Koman at this time, what did they speak. Vulgar Latin? Slavic? Proto-Albanian?

This is very odd, literally no ecclesiastical documentation of this, but it’s stock full of Avar and Byzantine dressing that was popular at the time..

[HERK]

It would be so for all our neighbours too, the only ones preserving ancient knowledge through the middle ages where the churches and mosques. Their churches survived, ours did not. And with our church went also our history. Even so, the small eclesiastical organisations we had could not have preserved much more than family lineages. We are a very small people who once were even smaller. People forget that not long ago there were not even 1'000'000 albanians in the world. Going back to the middle ages when all of us fled into the mountains, we could not have been more than even 100'000 people.

Even 100k is a big number , i really doubt we were more than 10k during Byzantine times. In 1920 Albania had around 800k people in total, that is just 90 years ago, do you imagine 900-1k years from now?

[Trilecce]

Even 100k is a big number , i really doubt we were more than 10k during Byzantine times. In 1920 Albania had around 800k people in total, that is just 90 years ago, do you imagine 900-1k years from now?

10k is a really small number. There is no real difference in lifestyle in the mountains ranging from medieval times to 1940. At the early 20th century and at the 19th century we had a medieval population far larger than 10k. Imagining the early albanians of Northern mountains, i cant imagine them being more than 100k, they probably somewhat fewer, but certainly not more than 100k.

However, it never stops to amaze me how such a small population utterly dominated the ottoman empire and many of its surrounding regions. Remember that the turks sent an army of 400'000 against us. We killed tham all with about 15'000 fighters.

Our whole population could not have been more than 100'000.
If you take the number 100'000 and exclude all who are not in fighting age then you could get 60'000 left. Exclude the women then you get 30'000, exclude the weak, the cowards and the idiots you get 15'000. Whats left is the exact number of Skenderbeg's army.

The suggestion of having a population of 10k albanians can not be true by the simple fact that the albanian fighting force itself was 15k.

[Dibran]

This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, thanks!

So who were the people who lived in Koman at this time, what did they speak. Vulgar Latin? Slavic? Proto-Albanian?

This is very odd, literally no ecclesiastical documentation of this, but it’s stock full of Avar and Byzantine dressing that was popular at the time..

I would say Proto-Albanians. Some older accounts claim(no proof however) that Proto Albanian living style in the mountains was Nomadic until the middle age expansion. I can't verify that though. It was just claims of some writers in the middle ages which could have well been bias. For instance if archeological digs were to look at European cultures 20000 years from now they would make assessments based on material culture. Which is not always indicative of the the peoples or the languages they spoke. You have for instance Albanians driving German automobiles, wearing Italian brand clothing etc. One would assume Germanic/Italian based on these cultural artifacts. The truth is ancient cultures were always a hodge podge of many cultural elements absorbed from neighbors through contact and what not. I guess the best bet would be to study the genetics of the remains at Komani, though I imagine no one would want them disturbing burials.

[Div1]

10k is a really small number. There is no real difference in lifestyle in the mountains ranging from medieval times to 1940. At the early 20th century and at the 19th century we had a medieval population far larger than 10k. Imagining the early albanians of Northern mountains, i cant imagine them being more than 100k, they probably somewhat fewer, but certainly not more than 100k.

However, it never stops to amaze me how such a small population utterly dominated the ottoman empire and many of its surrounding regions. Remember that the turks sent an army of 400'000 against us. We killed tham all with about 15'000 fighters.

Our whole population could not have been more than 100'000.
If you take the number 100'000 and exclude all who are not in fighting age then you could get 60'000 left. Exclude the women then you get 30'000, exclude the weak, the cowards and the idiots you get 15'000. Whats left is the exact number of Skenderbeg's army.

The suggestion of having a population of 10k albanians can not be true by the simple fact that the albanian fighting force itself was 15k.

I'm sure that the population of Albanians from the 7th-11th century would be relatively stable, and well dispersed across the mountains and terrain of modern day northern Albania, Montenegro, and Kosovo. ~80,000 is a good number, although I doubt they were around in cities.

[Trilecce]

I'm sure that the population of Albanians from the 7th-11th century would be relatively stable, and well dispersed across the mountains and terrain of modern day northern Albania, Montenegro, and Kosovo. ~80,000 is a good number, although I doubt they were around in cities.

Archeology in northern albania shows a transhumant people living there in that period of time. Meaning they were exclusively herders. Taking their livestock to the mountains for the summer and to the lowlands for winter so to make it easier for their heard to survive the blisteringly hot summers in the lowlands and the biting cold winters in the mountains. My guess would be that it wasnt untill the turks came that the mountains became a more permanent residence. Or in the case of the formation of our people, the mountains would have been a refuge for the people escaping the goths, huns, avars and all the rest of the great migration people. Thus cutting off these romans in the mountains and there in their isolation these romans developed into what we today would recognize as albanians.