What means ''genetically Mesopotamian'' ?

[Jana]

Which peoples are considered Mesopotamian and how do they differ genetically (if they do) from people of Levant, Caucasus, Iranian plateau or Arabian peninsula ?

I am trying to learn more about genetics of west asian people.

Thanks a lot.

[LoLeL]

Archaeogenetics of the Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetics_of_the_Near_East) and go to Iraq (Mesopotamia)

[Methuselah]

Maybe some Iraqi? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Arabs

[Jana]

Maybe some Iraqi? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Arabs

I guess, but I read in some posts here how there is difference between for example Anatolian people, Mesopotamian or Levantine. I'd like to know what are their differences in terms of admixture :)

[Methuselah]

I guess, but I read in some posts here how there is difference between for example Anatolian people, Mesopotamian or Levantine. I'd like to know what are their differences in terms of admixture :)

Ahaa. Right! :) Yeah, i would like to know too. I wonder how some Caucasus people differ from some Middle Easterners. I heard they are related but have some of that ANE- stuff too...

[Wrong]

Mandaeans are the Mesopotamian natives.

[Jana]

Mandaeans are the Mesopotamian natives.

has anyone seen their gedmatch results ?

[War Chef]

Hulagu Khan killed most of Mesopotamia's original inhabitants. I believe they were replaced by people with genes more similar to Gulf Arabs, as the desert Bedouins were mostly spared because they did not live in urban setting, only later coming to the big cities for work.

[8888]

It means genetically cucked, raped and humilliated by Arabs, Turkics and Mongols, hehe.

[Marmara]

Mesopotamians are genetically closer to Iran. They are darker than levantines.

[Aren]

has anyone seen their gedmatch results ?

Close to Assyrians and Eastern Mizrahi Jews(Kurdish, Iranian, Iraqi and Azeri Jews). They speak Eastern Aramaic just like us Assyrians, though their language(Neo-Mandaic) is much closer to Babylonian Aramaic.

Mesopotamian admix I think is used sometimes for the ancient people of Mesopotamia before the Semites arrived, like the Hurrians and especially Sumerians. We obviously don't have aDNA of these people yet but I think Hurrians were close to the samples from Bronze Age Armenia(Kura Axes) whilst Sumerians were probably some kind of Iran_N + Levant/Anatolian mix.

[Methuselah]

Close to Assyrians and Eastern Mizrahi Jews(Kurdish, Iranian, Iraqi and Azeri Jews). They speak Eastern Aramaic just like us Assyrians, though their language(Neo-Mandaic) is much closer to Babylonian Aramaic.

Mesopotamian admix I think is used sometimes for the ancient people of Mesopotamia before the Semites arrived, like the Hurrians and especially Sumerians. We obviously don't have aDNA of these people yet but I think Hurrians were close to the samples from Bronze Age Armenia(Kura Axes) whilst Sumerians were probably some kind of Iran_N + Levant/Anatolian mix.

Are they close to Armenians and Georgians too? Or just some Azeri?

[Marmara]

Hulagu Khan killed most of Mesopotamia's original inhabitants. I believe they were replaced by people with genes more similar to Gulf Arabs, as the desert Bedouins were mostly spared because they did not live in urban setting, only later coming to the big cities for work.

Iraqi Arabs do have genetic links to Bedouins. That's why they are considerably shorter and darker. Kurds and Assyrians would be proper Mesopotamians.

[Jana]

Are Armenians more Anatolian or Mesopotamian ? is there a difference ?

I know they aren't proper Caucasians.

[Aren]

Are they close to Armenians and Georgians too? Or some Azeri?

Western Armenians yes, other Armenians less so. Georgians and Azeris are quite further away. We(both us and Mandeans) are closer to Jews who lived in modern day Iraq, Iran and Georgia than to Armenians. It's not surprising as all these Jews claim to be descendants of Assyrian/Babylonian exiles and converts.

[Jana]

Close to Assyrians and Eastern Mizrahi Jews(Kurdish, Iranian, Iraqi and Azeri Jews). They speak Eastern Aramaic just like us Assyrians, though their language(Neo-Mandaic) is much closer to Babylonian Aramaic.

Mesopotamian admix I think is used sometimes for the ancient people of Mesopotamia before the Semites arrived, like the Hurrians and especially Sumerians. We obviously don't have aDNA of these people yet but I think Hurrians were close to the samples from Bronze Age Armenia(Kura Axes) whilst Sumerians were probably some kind of Iran_N + Levant/Anatolian mix.

will we ever get Hurrian or Sumerian samples ?

[Aren]

will we ever get Hurrian or Sumerian samples ?

Considering the political situation in Syria and Iraq nowadays I doubt it.

[Jana]

Considering the political situation in Syria and Iraq nowadays I doubt it.

:(

[Marmara]

Are Armenians more Anatolian or Mesopotamian ? is there a difference ?

I know they aren't proper Caucasians.

Armenians are genetically not that close to Mesopotamia. They are rather close to Caucasia. Azerbaijanis on the other hand are closer.

There is more than 10 genetic distance between Armenians and Kurds despite living next to each other for a long time.

Actually Kurds and Assyrians also have quite a bit genetic distance.

[Kivan]

Iraqi Arabs do have genetic links to Bedouins. That's why they are considerably shorter and darker. Kurds and Assyrians would be proper Mesopotamians.


Armenians are genetically not that close to Mesopotamia. They are rather close to Caucasia. Azerbaijanis on the other hand are closer.

There is more than 10 genetic distance between Armenians and Kurds despite living next to each other for a long time.

Actually Kurds and Assyrians also have quite a bit genetic distance.

Where did you pulled that information out? This PCA plot says Armenians are close to Assyrians:
https://abload.de/img/crptmmw1mkkuq.jpg

North-Caucasians are close to each other and Armenians are not actual Caucasians. Georgians would be a half-way between Armenians and NC. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aren]

Armenians are genetically not that close to Mesopotamia. They are rather close to Caucasia. Azerbaijanis on the other hand are closer.

Not really. Armenians are much closer, Eastern Anaolia and Mesopotamia have always been linked closely to one and other. Azeris seem like Kurds/Iranians with some Turkish input.

[Jana]

wouldn't Azeris have too much Iranian and Turkic DNA to pull them further from Mesopotamia ?

[Marmara]

Where did you pulled that information out? This PCA plot says Armenians are close to Assyrians:
https://abload.de/img/crptmmw1mkkuq.jpg

North-Caucasians are close to each other and Armenians are not actual Caucasians. Georgians would be a half-way between Armenians and NC. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

By Caucasia I actually wanted to mean Kartvelian really, like Georgian and Laz.

[Marmara]

wouldn't Azeris have too much Iranian and Turkic DNA to pull them further from Mesopotamia ?

Mesopotamia itself is very Iranic influenced, Iraq used to be the center of Sassanid empire.

[Jana]

what about Levantines, how do they differ from Mesopotamians ? Higher east med and lower west asian scores ?
Are Syrian Arabs much different from Assyrians ?

[Marmara]

what about Levantines, how do they differ from Mesopotamians ? Higher east med and lower west asian scores ?
Are Syrian Arabs much different from Assyrians ?

Levantines shift towards South Europeans,

Syrian Arabs are diverse in looks, they also have Bedouins. I think the difference between Assyrian and Syrian Arab isn't much high. Lebanese Arabs have the least Arabian admixture and often can pass in South Europe.

[Marmara]

Levantines shift towards South Europeans,

Syrian Arabs are diverse in looks, they also have Bedouins. I think the difference between Assyrian and Syrian Arab isn't much high. Lebanese Arabs have the least Arabian admixture and often can pass in South Europe.

I need to add, it's not because Lebanese Arabs are Christians, Sunni Muslims are in fact are closer to Europe and lighter.

[Aren]

Mesopotamia itself is very Iranic influenced, Iraq used to be the center of Sassanid empire.

Modern day Iraqis are barely Mesopotamian in origin, most of Iraq was completely massacred by the Mongols and re-populated by Bedouins. Some Syrians and Iraqis maybe are closer to Assyrians, but I haven't seen a gedmatch results of a Syrian or Iraqi that doesn't seem heavily Levantine or Arabian shifted. There's also a decent amount of Iranian input in Iraqi Arabs.

[Marmara]

Modern day Iraqis are barely Mesopotamian in origin, most of Iraq was completely massacred by the Mongols and re-populated by Bedouins. Some Syrians and Iraqis maybe are closer to Assyrians, but I haven't seen a gedmatch results of a Syrian or Iraqi that doesn't seem heavily Levantine or Arabian shifted. There's also a decent amount of Iranian input in Iraqi Arabs.

South Iraqis yes, but I already don't include them. Shia Arabs especially are like half Iranian half Bedouin. Sunni Arabs, Kurds, Assyrians, they don't have the Bedouin input, besides, I'm talking about modern Mesopotamians not Ancient.

[War Chef]

Assyrians are a good proxy for Mesopotamians, yes.

Kurds are not.... Kurds cluster very close to Iranians, showing their eastern origins with the Median empire.

[Aren]

South Iraqis yes, but I already don't include them. Shia Arabs especially are like half Iranian half Bedouin. Sunni Arabs, Kurds, Assyrians, they don't have the Bedouin input, besides, I'm talking about modern Mesopotamians not Ancient.

Modern Mesopotamians are basically the Eastern Aramaic speaking people who live or used to live before the genocide in Iraq, Syria, NW Iran and SE Turkey. Modern day Iraqis are genetically not Mesopotamian just because they live here now.

[FinalFlash]

Most modern day Armenians are generally a South Caucasus population. Western Armenians are a bit shifted towards modern day east Turkey.

[Trouble]

With extremely sparse genetic data from the country it is impossible to make sweeping generalizations like the ones people have been making here. We know that the Mongols destroyed Baghdad but I am not sure if we can say that the entire native stock of Mesopotamia was depleted aside from Mandeans and Assyrians. Moreover, what constitutes this "native" Mesopotamian stock to begin with? Because for several centuries before the Mongols came there was Iranian influence on Mesopotamia. In addition, I would caution against using Assyrians as perfect proxies for native Mesopotamian blood because they are more representative of the upper Mesopotamian plains as opposed to the central or southern heartland.

From what I've seen of the few Iraqi Arab samples out there, they seem to have non-negligible SSA which is normal for Muslim Arabs in the Middle East but the oracles are interesting. Many of them seem like proper mixes between peninsular Arabs and Iranian Persians while others more of a mix between Levantines and Persians. However, the native Mesopotamians themselves were already genetically intermediate between Iranians and Levantines so it's hard to tell if these oracles are natural or the result of population replacement. The SSA for example might be throwing the oracles off as Assyrians and Mandeans for example do not have any SSA being an endogamous community while peninsular Arabs and to an extent Levantine Muslims do.

I personally find it very doubtful that the entire Mesopotamian population was just wiped out and that the native population are all just peninsular Arab transplants or Arabian-Persian mixes. There is definitely at least some native Mesopotamian blood in the majority or even most Iraqi Arabs. However this type of ancestry is more likely to predominate in central Iraq and perhaps some parts of the north such as Mosul where much of the Muslim population are likely descended from Assyrians.

Places that have heavy Iranian ancestry would be those like the shrine cities of Karbala and Najaf and parts of Baghdad.

Most of West Asia has the same ancestral population sources but in differing amounts(ANF, Iran_N, Levant_N, CHG, etc). So the ANF/Levant type ancestry is higher in Levantines than Assyrians/Mandeans who in turn have more than Iranians(who are more Iran_N rich).

[Leto]

From what I've seen of the few Iraqi Arab samples out there, they seem to have non-negligible SSA which is normal for Muslim Arabs in the Middle East but the oracles are interesting.

There is a huge list of Iraqi Gedmatch kits out there. The Iraqi DNA Project.

[Trouble]

There is a huge list of Iraqi Gedmatch kits out there. The Iraqi DNA Project.

I’ve seen it and it’s not huge.