East/West Sicily modeled using academic samples

[Sikeliot]

A member on Anthrogenica made these, I do not get credit for it but I thought they were interesting.

I highlighted Greek in green, MENA in red, and West European in blue.

Interesting is East Sicily can be modeled with no North African, while West Sicily requires it.

Sicilian_East

Samaritan:149533 21.80
French_South:SouthFrench3326 19.25
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 16.90
French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.20
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 12.80
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 7.65
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP10 3.85
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 3.25
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 1.30

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 44.45
French: 32.45
MENA: 23.1


Sicilian_West

Samaritan:149533 19.40
French_South:SouthFrench1323 17.95
Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1 13.10
Greek:NA17373 11.20
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 9.10
French_South:SouthFrench3326 8.05
French_South:SouthFrench3951 6.95
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 5.10
Mozabite:HGDP01274 5.05
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 4.10

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 37.50
French: 32.95
MENA: 29.55

[Coolguy1]

These are hypothetical models without historical accuracy. Sicilians can easily be modeled as predominately Mycenaean with extra Armenia EBA and steppe stuff, which would probably be historically accurate.

[Sikeliot]

These are hypothetical models without historical accuracy. Sicilians can easily be modeled as predominately Mycenaean with extra Armenia EBA and steppe stuff, which would probably be historically accurate.

Then you would have to believe Sicilians are more Mycenaean than northern Greeks, because compared to Mycenaeans, some northern Greek regions can be modeled as 40% Czech or something..

These make more sense to me than Sicilians being like 80% Mycenaean and 20% Armenian.

[Coolguy1]

Then you would have to believe Sicilians are more Mycenaean than northern Greeks, because compared to Mycenaeans, some northern Greek regions can be modeled as 40% Czech or something..

These make more sense to me than Sicilians being like 80% Mycenaean and 20% Armenian.

In reality Greeks of any kind will have more ancestry from Mycenaeans than Sicilians, but sicilians can be modeled as having more. Sicilians still have more steppe input than Mycenaeans do. The extra near eastern stuff is likely from an Anatolian source. I doubt they have much if any input from the levant/North Africa.

[Percivalle]

Then you would have to believe Sicilians are more Mycenaean than northern Greeks, because compared to Mycenaeans, some northern Greek regions can be modeled as 40% Czech or something..

These make more sense to me than Sicilians being like 80% Mycenaean and 20% Armenian.

Those are modelled using individual results, not averages and Global is far from being accurate.

Those northern Greeks can be modeled as 40% Czech or something because they are based on the most northern-shifted individuals who are 5.

Northern Greeks have obviously more "Czech" than Sicilians, they have quite mixing with Slavic people until recently but if the most northern-shifted individuals are picked and the more southern-shifted ones are discarded, it is obvious that these high values ​​​​are obtained.

[Aren]

Those are modelled using individual results, not averages and Global is far from being accurate.

Those northern Greeks can be modeled as 40% Czech or something because they are based on the most northern-shifted individuals who are 5.

Northern Greeks have obviously more "Czech" than Sicilians, they have quite mixing with Slavic people until recently but if the most northern-shifted individuals are picked and the more southern-shifted ones are discarded, it is obvious that these high values ​​​​are obtained.

He wasn't even using Global but Basal-rich K7 and his main focus was trying to model Jews.

[Percivalle]

He wasn't even using Global but Basal-rich K7 and his main focus was trying to model Jews.

Basal-rich K7 is the same stuff made by the same person.

[Aren]

Basal-rich K7 is the same stuff made by the same person.

Yes but you get significantly different results using Global 25 with nMonte.

[Percivalle]

Yes but you get significantly different results using Global 25 with nMonte.

As well.

[Sikeliot]

In reality Greeks of any kind will have more ancestry from Mycenaeans than Sicilians, but sicilians can be modeled as having more. Sicilians still have more steppe input than Mycenaeans do. The extra near eastern stuff is likely from an Anatolian source. I doubt they have much if any input from the levant/North Africa.

Sicilians also have more SW Asian, North African, etc. than Mycenaeans had, and less "West Med" (which is really a misnomer because it is representative of ancient Anatolian, and the component arrived from the east, not from the west).

I do not agree that the extra Near Eastern in Sicily is from Anatolia.

[Sikeliot]

Northern Greeks have obviously more "Czech" than Sicilians

As are all mainland Greeks. Sicilians cannot even be modeled with Czech because they don't have NE European input. There is something that might be described as "Italo-Celtic" though.

[Percivalle]

As are all mainland Greeks. Sicilians cannot even be modeled with Czech because they don't have NE European input. There is something that might be described as "Italo-Celtic" though.

Of course Sicilians have less on average Northern European than average Greek mainlanders. But not completely clear if it's all NW or NE.

[Sikeliot]

Of course Sicilians have less on average Northern European than average Greek mainlanders. But not completely clear if it's all NW or NE.

Northwest. I am pretty sure you can model Sicilians without any NE European at all. But they do have some "French" like ancestry.

But what is clear to me is they cannot be modeled without some North African and Levantine, no matter what populations you use in the mixture. So I do not think it's just all ancient Anatolian.

[Sikeliot]

Here is what he gave for South Italy mainland... the Levantine drops significantly.

Greek:GREEKGRALPOP5 20.75
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 16.55
French_South:SouthFrench3326 13.75
Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2 9.70
French_South:SouthFrench1112 9.25
Samaritan:149532 8.15
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 6.10
Turkish_Adana:Adana23112 5.75
Mozabite:HGDP01275 4.00
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25002 3.00
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP12 3.00

[Coolguy1]

[1] "distance%=2.885 / distance=0.02885"

Palermo (N=8)

Mycenaean (N=4) 67.30
Algerian (N=2) 14.55
Armenia_BA_M731608 9.90
I0440_Poltavka 8.25
Half_Polish_Russian 0.00

Using the Mycenaean average Sicilians could use some extra North African, with the addition of steppe and Anatolian.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Sicilians also have more SW Asian, North African, etc. than Mycenaeans had

Yea indeed

I9041
1 Algerian_Jewish 11.537820
2 South_Italian 11.728889
3 West_Sicilian 11.930955
4 Italian_Jewish 11.959280
5 Sephardic_Jewish 13.163100
6 East_Sicilian 14.161626
7 Central_Greek 14.995540
8 Italian_Abruzzo 15.194218
9 Tunisian_Jewish 16.531200
10 Tuscan 16.534834
11 Ashkenazi 17.861904
12 Greek 18.451389
13 Libyan_Jewish 19.168669
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.568029
15 Cyprian 20.654701
16 North_Italian 22.197578
17 Tunisian 23.566832
18 Algerian 25.193422
19 Mozabite_Berber 26.101456
20 Lebanese_Muslim 26.503309

I9033
1 East_Sicilian 13.041629
2 South_Italian 13.528161
3 Central_Greek 13.583624
4 Tuscan 14.170655
5 West_Sicilian 14.342082
6 Italian_Abruzzo 14.535425
7 Greek_Thessaly 14.860162
8 Ashkenazi 16.069584
9 Italian_Jewish 16.534094
10 Greek 16.571495
11 Algerian_Jewish 17.784563
12 North_Italian 18.839813
13 Sephardic_Jewish 19.146748
14 Libyan_Jewish 21.675129
15 Tunisian_Jewish 22.617178
16 Bulgarian 23.100882
17 Algerian 24.609713
18 Romanian 25.011593
19 Cyprian 25.206230
20 Tunisian 25.505022

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Those are modelled using individual results, not averages and Global is far from being accurate.

Everyone knows that Sicilians are 30% French :laugh: But seriously, this way of modeling populations looks like bullshit to me.

[Sikeliot]

[1] "distance%=2.885 / distance=0.02885"

Palermo (N=8)

Mycenaean (N=4) 67.30
Algerian (N=2) 14.55
Armenia_BA_M731608 9.90
I0440_Poltavka 8.25
Half_Polish_Russian 0.00

Using the Mycenaean average Sicilians could use some extra North African, with the addition of steppe and Anatolian.


This model makes sense also. Either way none of these are meant to be taken literally, they are just models. I was not implying that they are LITERALLY what is listed in my post :)

Though it is interesting that East Sicily can be modeled with a lot of Anatolian Greek considering many of the Greek settlers of NE Sicily were Anatolian Greeks. There has never been a large settlement of mainland Greeks in Sicily apart from near Syracuse.

[Sikeliot]

Yea indeed

I9041
1 Algerian_Jewish 11.537820
2 South_Italian 11.728889
3 West_Sicilian 11.930955
4 Italian_Jewish 11.959280
5 Sephardic_Jewish 13.163100
6 East_Sicilian 14.161626
7 Central_Greek 14.995540
8 Italian_Abruzzo 15.194218
9 Tunisian_Jewish 16.531200
10 Tuscan 16.534834
11 Ashkenazi 17.861904
12 Greek 18.451389
13 Libyan_Jewish 19.168669
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.568029
15 Cyprian 20.654701
16 North_Italian 22.197578
17 Tunisian 23.566832
18 Algerian 25.193422
19 Mozabite_Berber 26.101456
20 Lebanese_Muslim 26.503309

I9033
1 East_Sicilian 13.041629
2 South_Italian 13.528161
3 Central_Greek 13.583624
4 Tuscan 14.170655
5 West_Sicilian 14.342082
6 Italian_Abruzzo 14.535425
7 Greek_Thessaly 14.860162
8 Ashkenazi 16.069584
9 Italian_Jewish 16.534094
10 Greek 16.571495
11 Algerian_Jewish 17.784563
12 North_Italian 18.839813
13 Sephardic_Jewish 19.146748
14 Libyan_Jewish 21.675129
15 Tunisian_Jewish 22.617178
16 Bulgarian 23.100882
17 Algerian 24.609713
18 Romanian 25.011593
19 Cyprian 25.206230
20 Tunisian 25.505022

Modern Sicilians are not only considerably closer to the Levantine references than that, but equally close to the North African while still having lower West Med which is a component that is shifting those Mycenaeans toward North Africa.


Modern day Trapanese results:

#1:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.47
2 West_Med 23.39
3 North_Atlantic 22.02
4 West_Asian 9.13
5 Baltic 6.23
6 Red_Sea 5.59
7 Northeast_African 1.40


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Sicilian @ 3.939055
2 South_Italian @ 8.084850
3 East_Sicilian @ 8.304837
4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.312629
5 Tuscan @ 9.608526
6 Central_Greek @ 9.763682
7 Ashkenazi @ 9.950550
8 Italian_Jewish @ 10.678068
9 Sephardic_Jewish @ 11.400599
10 Algerian_Jewish @ 11.697598
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 13.036422
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 16.086874
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.517719
14 North_Italian @ 16.972960
15 Bulgarian @ 22.375294
16 Tunisian @ 22.667351
17 Cyprian @ 22.751705
18 Algerian @ 23.067177
19 Romanian @ 24.066397
20 Mozabite_Berber @ 24.474358


#2:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.62
2 West_Med 22.37
3 North_Atlantic 17.78
4 West_Asian 11.15
5 Baltic 10.93
6 Red_Sea 5.65
7 Sub-Saharan 1.28
8 East_Asian 1.07


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_Sicilian @ 4.247757
2 Central_Greek @ 4.851661
3 West_Sicilian @ 5.092561
4 South_Italian @ 7.002995
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.179672
6 Ashkenazi @ 7.215362
7 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.771816
8 Tuscan @ 11.249734
9 Algerian_Jewish @ 12.197650
10 Italian_Jewish @ 12.561720
11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 12.827884
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 17.066940
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 17.508934
14 Bulgarian @ 17.736832
15 North_Italian @ 18.305170
16 Romanian @ 20.125088
17 Cyprian @ 21.042578
18 Tunisian @ 23.311314
19 Algerian @ 24.031313
20 Serbian @ 24.689510


#3:


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.52
2 North_Atlantic 22.21
3 West_Med 21.48
4 West_Asian 10.82
5 Baltic 5.18
6 Red_Sea 5.03
7 Northeast_African 1.59


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Sicilian @ 5.027617
2 South_Italian @ 7.233545
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.733251
4 East_Sicilian @ 8.110828
5 Ashkenazi @ 9.441269
6 Central_Greek @ 9.520083
7 Italian_Jewish @ 9.546808
8 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.901775
9 Tuscan @ 11.111747
10 Algerian_Jewish @ 11.374841
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 13.798687
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 14.858394
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 15.429657
14 North_Italian @ 18.539789
15 Cyprian @ 21.391552
16 Bulgarian @ 23.178852
17 Tunisian @ 23.764004
18 Algerian @ 24.261450
19 Romanian @ 24.865654
20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 24.928568


Agrigento results...

#1:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.26
2 West_Med 20.09
3 North_Atlantic 14.97
4 West_Asian 14.90
5 Baltic 7.38
6 Red_Sea 6.78
7 Northeast_African 1.67
8 Sub-Saharan 1.60


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 East_Sicilian @ 3.845640
2 South_Italian @ 4.308193
3 Central_Greek @ 5.683520
4 Ashkenazi @ 6.481341
5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 7.944068
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.599564
7 West_Sicilian @ 8.884068
8 Italian_Jewish @ 8.961696
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.251463
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 11.665894
11 Libyan_Jewish @ 12.226624
12 Greek_Thessaly @ 13.018792
13 Cyprian @ 14.824003
14 Tuscan @ 16.622356
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 18.092913
16 Syrian @ 18.976254
17 Turkish @ 20.999695
18 Jordanian @ 21.494276
19 Samaritan @ 21.913128
20 Tunisian @ 22.154726


#2:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 35.56
2 West_Med 23.21
3 North_Atlantic 19.79
4 West_Asian 9.80
5 Baltic 4.21
6 Red_Sea 3.64
7 South_Asian 1.73
8 Sub-Saharan 1.44


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Jewish @ 7.343004
2 South_Italian @ 7.624777
3 West_Sicilian @ 8.199646
4 Algerian_Jewish @ 8.810304
5 Sephardic_Jewish @ 8.854491
6 Ashkenazi @ 9.418497
7 East_Sicilian @ 9.850878
8 Central_Greek @ 11.287051
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.536827
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 13.368974
11 Libyan_Jewish @ 14.139082
12 Tuscan @ 14.653209
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 16.238646
14 Cyprian @ 19.416609
15 North_Italian @ 21.797941
16 Tunisian @ 23.085131
17 Lebanese_Muslim @ 24.008440
18 Algerian @ 24.135471
19 Syrian @ 25.239828
20 Mozabite_Berber @ 25.646746

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Modern Sicilians are not only considerably closer to the Levantine references than that

Because Mycenaeans are far from any modern population and Sicilians are not more Maghrebi than the Mycenaeans.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are not more Maghrebi than the Mycenaeans.

Yes, they are. Even with the West Med being reduced, modern Sicilians are just as close on the Oracles to Tunisia/Algeria as the Mycenaean sample was.

[Sikeliot]

If Sicilians can be better modeled with Mycenaean or Island/Anatolian Greek + Levantine and some west European, rather than with Bell Beaker Sicilian, then it could only mean one of two things:

1. The commonly cited once taken as truth claim that the Greeks and Phoenicians pushed the natives of Sicily inland and/or killed them off and that their presence dwindled to a mere minority in the inland regions is actually true,
or
2. Mycenaean is a stand-in for an ancient population of Sicily we do not yet have samples for, and should not be taken literally.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes, they are. Even with the West Med being reduced, modern Sicilians are just as close on the Oracles to Tunisia/Algeria as the Mycenaean sample was.

Again, Mycenaeans were distant from modern populations and they were closer to them than modern Sicilians. The West_Med of those Mycenaeans was only +5 compared to the Sicilians you posted before, I9033 also scored Northeast_African 4.26 and I9041 Red_Sea 4.07.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

If Sicilians can be better modeled with Mycenaean or Island/Anatolian Greek + Levantine and some west European, rather than with Bell Beaker Sicilian

No, that Sicilian who lived 4200 years ago in Trapani can be modeled as half Sicilian himself.

[Sikeliot]

No, that Sicilian who lived 4200 years ago in Trapani can be modeled as half Sicilian himself.

But modern Sicilians are better modeled with Mycenaean. The question is, why?

[Lavrentis]

considering many of the Greek settlers of NE Sicily were Anatolian Greeks.

Do you have any source about this? I personally doubt it. As far as I know, we don’t know yet whether the Greek settlers of Sicily and south Italy in general were mainland Greeks or Anatolian Greeks.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Do you have any source about this? I personally doubt it. As far as I know, we don’t know yet whether the Greek settlers of Sicily and south Italy in general were mainland Greeks or Anatolian Greeks.

Don't take seriously what he says, trust me.

[Sikeliot]

Do you have any source about this? I personally doubt it. As far as I know, we don’t know yet whether the Greek settlers of Sicily and south Italy in general were mainland Greeks or Anatolian Greeks.

You can tell by the ancient Greek dialects that were spoken, with Ionian Greek dialects brought from Anatolia making up those in northeast Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Again, Mycenaeans were distant from modern populations and they were closer to them than modern Sicilians. The West_Med of those Mycenaeans was only +5 compared to the Sicilians you posted before, I9033 also scored Northeast_African 4.26 and I9041 Red_Sea 4.07.

This is not true if you look at the results that I had posted. You keep repeating this over and over but it isn't true.

[8888]

Don't take seriously what he says, trust me.

Yeah, Sikeliot is a troll.

I'll be banned again after this post but I need to expose him:

He claims Sicilians are MENAs because he thinks he looks MENA (he doesn't, but that's another story) and he wants to be ''Ancient Greek'', so in order for him to be Ancient Greek Sicilians must be Levantines, Greek mainlanders Slavs etc. This way everything would ''match'' his exact ancestry. Polish/Portuguese/Sicilian faggot from USA.
He also trolls the Portuguese claiming they are African admixed because it would make them like his Capeverdean grandmother.

In short, all of his 100000000 posts sprung from his personal issues and trolling attempts.

[Lavrentis]

You can tell by the ancient Greek dialects that were spoken, with Ionian Greek dialects brought from Anatolia making up those in northeast Sicily.

The Ionians (and their language) originated in mainland Greece though. They migrated to the western coast of Anatolia later.

Again, the point is that we don’t know whether the Greek settlers of south Italy came directly out of Greece or if they came later from the Greek colonies in Anatolia. I personally think that they came from mainland Greece.

Anyway, what’s the biggest difference between NE Sicilians and SE Sicilians? Some more Steppe in the SE? Doesn’t seem like a big difference to me

[Sikeliot]

I personally think that they came from mainland Greece.e

Then why do modern Sicilians not plot genetically near mainland Greeks?

It's either substantial Slavicization of the mainland, or significant MENA input in Sicily. Take your pick.

[Lavrentis]

Then why do modern Sicilians not plot genetically near mainland Greeks?

Probably because the Greek settlers didn’t exterminate the local Sicilian population, but rather assimilated them. And I guess the locals outnumbered the Greek settlers. It was simply Hellenization of the locals.

Also, weren’t the ancient Greeks more northern shifted than the ancient south Italians?

It’s all hypothetical though. The best scenario is that an ancient Greek grave is found in Sicily and the DNA tested. Then we will know if the Greeks were from the mainland or if they were Hellenized Anatolians who settled Sicily. Keep in mind that the western Anatolian coast Greeks weren’t different from mainland Greeks, maybe they had absorbed more native Anatolian elements, but the difference wasn’t big.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yeah, Sikeliot is a troll.

I'll be banned again after this post but I need to expose him:

He claims Sicilians are MENAs because he thinks he looks MENA (he doesn't, but that's another story) and he wants to be ''Ancient Greek'', so in order for him to be Ancient Greek Sicilians must be Levantines, Greek mainlanders Slavs etc. This way everything would ''match'' his exact ancestry. Polish/Portuguese/Sicilian faggot from USA.
He also trolls the Portuguese claiming they are African admixed because it would make them like his Capeverdean grandmother.

In short, all of his 100000000 posts sprung from his personal issues and trolling attempts.

Exactly, he also wants to make Sicilians look like himself, in fact he made thousands of threads posting Sicilian armenoids :picard1:

[Myanthropologies]

Yeah, Sikeliot is a troll.

I'll be banned again after this post but I need to expose him:

He claims Sicilians are MENAs because he thinks he looks MENA (he doesn't, but that's another story) and he wants to be ''Ancient Greek'', so in order for him to be Ancient Greek Sicilians must be Levantines, Greek mainlanders Slavs etc. This way everything would ''match'' his exact ancestry. Polish/Portuguese/Sicilian faggot from USA.
He also trolls the Portuguese claiming they are African admixed because it would make them like his Capeverdean grandmother.

In short, all of his 100000000 posts sprung from his personal issues and trolling attempts.

The only troll here is you. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. Stop harassing members and bullying them. What are you, 5? So what if you disagree with him. There are better ways to handle disagreement than to attack people. And Sikeliot DOES look West Asian. Just because he plucked his eyebrows to 1/4 of their original size and wore colored contacts at one point, does not take away the fact that in his pure form, he does look West Asian passing. I know him well enough to confirm that he indeed does get mistaken for West Asian in person. And people I know that have seen him think the same.

[Sikeliot]

Probably because the Greek settlers didn’t exterminate the local Sicilian population, but rather assimilated them. And I guess the locals outnumbered the Greek settlers. It was simply Hellenization of the locals.

The common belief was at one point, and often still cited, is that the Greek colonization of Sicily was violent and pushed the locals toward the inland at best, and exterminated them at worst.

This is contested. Something you'll find in many old history books and even commonly cited on anthrofora is that the Greeks and Carthaginians settled on the east and west coasts respectively, pushed the natives inland, and then eventually took over the inland by force. So by this argument, it would imply much of Sicily has little DNA from the original inhabitants. But the original inhabitants would not have differed much from Mycenaeans to begin with. My point is, if there was a mass migration of mainland Greeks to Sicily, you'd see a Balkan signal in Sicilian genes, and for the most part you do not. See Sarno et al 2017.



Also, weren’t the ancient Greeks more northern shifted than the ancient south Italians?

This we will not know unless we have comprehensive samples from all regions, so far we do not. My guess is they would have been similar, but we do not know.


It’s all hypothetical though. The best scenario is that an ancient Greek grave is found in Sicily and the DNA tested. Then we will know if the Greeks were from the mainland or if they were Hellenized Anatolians who settled Sicily. Keep in mind that the western Anatolian coast Greeks weren’t different from mainland Greeks, maybe they had absorbed more native Anatolian elements, but the difference wasn’t big.

Well it is likely that people from all over the Greek world settled in Sicily but it is my belief most of them were not mainlanders. The earliest colonists were Euboean, and the cities along the southern coast were founded by Cretans and Rhodians. Some of the cities (I can provide you a list at some point) were founded by Anatolian Greeks on the east coast.

[Myanthropologies]

Exactly, he also wants to make Sicilians look like himself, in fact he made thousands of threads posting Sicilian armenoids :picard1:

Why do you have such a problem with what he posts? I'm so sick and tired of people attacking members that have been here for a long time, such as Sikeliot. Sikeliot has contributed a lot to this forum, and is always nice to members. He always responds to members requests, yet people bully, harass, and treat him like shit. Well, I'm not having it anymore. If you don't like what he posts, then don't post in his threads. If you don't like seeing his posts in other threads, then just put him on your ignore list. Do not go around bashing him and insulting him because of disagreements. Sikeliot is a very fair and level-headed guy, and seeing him getting bashed and bullied is sickening.

[Sikeliot]

Exactly, he also wants to make Sicilians look like himself, in fact he made thousands of threads posting Sicilian armenoids :picard1:

I don't only post Armenoid types, I post a variety of phenotypes. I post the entire spectrum, and you can see that from how people classify. Armenoid type is present (though not the majority) in Sicily whether people like it or not. But it is one of many types. I post whatever I can get my hands on to post and usually try to show the variation. Somehow I think if I only posted light-eyed "Atlantid" types you would not take an issue with it, and I think you need to ask yourself why that is.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I don't only post Armenoid types, I post a variety of phenotypes. I post the entire spectrum, and you can see that from how people classify. Armenoid type is present (though not the majority) in Sicily whether people like it or not. But it is one of many types. I post whatever I can get my hands on to post and usually try to show the variation. Somehow I think if I only posted light-eyed "Atlantid" types you would not take an issue with it, and I think you need to ask yourself why that is.

Don't bullshit me, you only post armenoids because your appearance is that. If there is someone who is ashamed, I think that's you since you need to fill a forum with photos of Sicilian with your own appearance. Stop pretending to know how Sicilians look like when you've never moved from the town where you live, I see Sicilians every day and nobody looks like your armenoids. Keep trolling, Sikeliot.

[Sikeliot]

Don't bullshit me, you only post armenoids because your appearance is that. If there is someone who is ashamed, I think that's you since you need to fill a forum with photos of Sicilian with your own appearance. Stop pretending to know how Sicilians look like when you've never moved from the town where you live, I see Sicilians every day and nobody looks like your armenoids. Keep trolling, Sikeliot.

Let's go through my recent posts and it'll prove you wrong. Roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the people I post show Near Eastern influences, which is actually remarkably low considering A. the genetics and B. that you accuse me of only posting Armenoid phenotypes. I post the entire spectrum of phenotypes. You certainly are not complaining that most of the Italian users leave out anyone who looks thoroughly Mediterranean, let alone Armenoid, and only post Atlantid types.

Of three women, only one is Armenoid:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248191-Classify-3-more-Sicilian-women-amp-where-each-passes

Of three women, only one looks Middle Eastern:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248083-Classify-3-Southern-Italian-women-amp-where-each-can-pass

Calabrese photos, most people said they looked more European than Levantine:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247929-Main-types-amp-where-they-pass-Reggio-Calabria-south-Italy

Palermitan photos, most people said Cyprus, Greece and Spain, though a sizable number said some could pass as Levantine, Armenian etc:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247515-Main-types-in-these-Sicilians-from-various-towns-in-Palermo-province-amp-where-they-pass

5 Sicilian women, only one was classified as Armenoid:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247838-Classify-5-pretty-Sicilian-women-and-where-each-passes

3 Sicilian women, ok these were on the exotic side:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247761-Classify-3-Sicilian-women

One Sicilian women I specifically asked if could pass in Armenia:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247690-Can-this-Sicilian-woman-pass-in-Armenia

A man and woman, the woman looks MENA but the man does not:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?247058-Classify-Sicilian-man-amp-woman-and-where-each-passes

11 women, at most only 3 have a blatant MENA look:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?246299-Classify-11-Sicilian-women-amp-where-each-passes

[Sikeliot]

Either way it is absolutely not supported that I only post Armenoid or exotic phenotypes, anyone looking at those photos can see that while some of those types are present, the majority are not.

[Bobby Martnen]

Sicilians also have more SW Asian, North African, etc. than Mycenaeans had, and less "West Med" (which is really a misnomer because it is representative of ancient Anatolian, and the component arrived from the east, not from the west).

I do not agree that the extra Near Eastern in Sicily is from Anatolia.

I thought "West Med" was Sardinians?

[Bobby Martnen]

Northwest. I am pretty sure you can model Sicilians without any NE European at all. But they do have some "French" like ancestry.

But what is clear to me is they cannot be modeled without some North African and Levantine, no matter what populations you use in the mixture. So I do not think it's just all ancient Anatolian.

French aren't NW Euro either - they're also Meds, albeit more NW shifted than Italians.

[Bobby Martnen]

Yeah, Sikeliot is a troll.

I'll be banned again after this post but I need to expose him:

He claims Sicilians are MENAs because he thinks he looks MENA (he doesn't, but that's another story) and he wants to be ''Ancient Greek'', so in order for him to be Ancient Greek Sicilians must be Levantines, Greek mainlanders Slavs etc. This way everything would ''match'' his exact ancestry. Polish/Portuguese/Sicilian faggot from USA.
He also trolls the Portuguese claiming they are African admixed because it would make them like his Capeverdean grandmother.

In short, all of his 100000000 posts sprung from his personal issues and trolling attempts.

Even if you don't agree with what he posts and think he doesn't for personal reasons (which I don't, since the science is on his side), that's still not trolling. Trolling is intentionally trying to provoke people, and I've never seen Sikeliot do that.

[Bobby Martnen]

A member on Anthrogenica made these, I do not get credit for it but I thought they were interesting.

I highlighted Greek in green, MENA in red, and West European in blue.

Interesting is East Sicily can be modeled with no North African, while West Sicily requires it.

Sicilian_East

Samaritan:149533 21.80
French_South:SouthFrench3326 19.25
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 16.90
French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.20
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 12.80
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 7.65
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP10 3.85
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 3.25
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 1.30

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 44.45
French: 32.45
MENA: 23.1


Sicilian_West

Samaritan:149533 19.40
French_South:SouthFrench1323 17.95
Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1 13.10
Greek:NA17373 11.20
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 9.10
French_South:SouthFrench3326 8.05
French_South:SouthFrench3951 6.95
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 5.10
Mozabite:HGDP01274 5.05
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 4.10

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 37.50
French: 32.95
MENA: 29.55

It's also worth noting, I think, that the French used here is "French South", which is much more southern-shifted than Normans are, so Sicilians aren't actually 1/3 Norman.

[Heather Duval]

Yeah, Sikeliot is a troll.

I'll be banned again after this post but I need to expose him:

He claims Sicilians are MENAs because he thinks he looks MENA (he doesn't, but that's another story) and he wants to be ''Ancient Greek'', so in order for him to be Ancient Greek Sicilians must be Levantines, Greek mainlanders Slavs etc. This way everything would ''match'' his exact ancestry. Polish/Portuguese/Sicilian faggot from USA.
He also trolls the Portuguese claiming they are African admixed because it would make them like his Capeverdean grandmother.

In short, all of his 100000000 posts sprung from his personal issues and trolling attempts.

Why u keep creating accounts if you claimed to be tired of TA before your first ban? I remember that.... You said you wanted to be banned. lol
You cant get away from this forum.

[Sikeliot]

It's also worth noting, I think, that the French used here is "French South", which is much more southern-shifted than Normans are, so Sicilians aren't actually 1/3 Norman.

The "French" there might signify north Italian settlement or Italic ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

I thought "West Med" was Sardinians?

West Med peaks in Sardinians, but high amounts of it will also shift people toward North Africa, as after Sardinians, it is highest next in Northwest Africa (NOT Iberia as people often think).

[Bobby Martnen]

A member on Anthrogenica made these, I do not get credit for it but I thought they were interesting.

I highlighted Greek in green, MENA in red, and West European in blue.

Interesting is East Sicily can be modeled with no North African, while West Sicily requires it.

Sicilian_East

Samaritan:149533 21.80
French_South:SouthFrench3326 19.25
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 16.90
French_South:SouthFrench3951 13.20
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 12.80
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25001 7.65
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP10 3.85
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP14 3.25
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 1.30

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 44.45
French: 32.45
MENA: 23.1


Sicilian_West

Samaritan:149533 19.40
French_South:SouthFrench1323 17.95
Greek_Crete:B_Crete-1 13.10
Greek:NA17373 11.20
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G25003 9.10
French_South:SouthFrench3326 8.05
French_South:SouthFrench3951 6.95
Turkish_Adana:Adana23133 5.10
Mozabite:HGDP01274 5.05
Greek:GREEKGRALPOP16 4.10

Greek Islands + Anatolian Greek: 37.50
French: 32.95
MENA: 29.55

Sorry for the bump, but do you think this means that Sicilians are ~40% Ancient Greek, ~30% Italo-Celtic, and ~30% MENA?

(As opposed to 50% MENA, like GEDmatch would suggest)

[Sikeliot]

Sorry for the bump, but do you think this means that Sicilians are ~40% Ancient Greek, ~30% Italo-Celtic, and ~30% MENA?

(As opposed to 50% MENA, like GEDmatch would suggest)

I think so yes.

[Bobby Martnen]

I think so yes.

I'm surprised by the high level of Italo-Celtic - that means that about 1/3 of the Sicilian Genome actually comes from North Italians. Possibly from Roman times?

[Grace O'Malley]

Why do you have such a problem with what he posts? I'm so sick and tired of people attacking members that have been here for a long time, such as Sikeliot. Sikeliot has contributed a lot to this forum, and is always nice to members. He always responds to members requests, yet people bully, harass, and treat him like shit. Well, I'm not having it anymore. If you don't like what he posts, then don't post in his threads. If you don't like seeing his posts in other threads, then just put him on your ignore list. Do not go around bashing him and insulting him because of disagreements. Sikeliot is a very fair and level-headed guy, and seeing him getting bashed and bullied is sickening.

I think Sikeliot is a great poster. I really like his posts on genetics and if you don't agree with him or have any issues he is always willing to discuss. Sikeliot looks at a lot of genetic studies and other related genetic material like Gedmatch results, nMonte etc. He's getting his information from reliable sources and makes interpretations from this. It makes for some interesting discussions. People should be open minded as far as genetics. If you don't agree with what he says just add some evidence to back up what you say. I've always found Sikeliot a very informed and polite person to discuss topics with. He does change his opinions as well with the evidence.

[Kouros]

Both Sikeliot and Ouroboros need to get a life

[Bobby Martnen]

Both Sikeliot and Ouroboros need to get a life

Nigga please

[Kouros]

And of course MyAnthropologies is upset that someone mentioned Sikeliot's obsession with pseudo West Asian armenoids that make up 0.5% of South Italy's population. If he stops posting those how else is MA going to convince us that 0.01% of Afghans pass in Europe.

[Tauromachos]

Both Sikeliot and Ouroboros need to get a life

Ouroboros isn't here anymore

And probably has better life now

[Kouros]

Ouroboros isn't here anymore

And probably has better life now

Actually Ourboros is still here (or atleast was) and his life must be pitiful because he's resorted to low quality trolling. If you search hard enough you might find that he has visited us in this very thread.

[Tauromachos]

Actually Ourboros is still here (or atleast was) and his life must be pitiful because he's resorted to low quality trolling. If you search hard enough you might find that he has visited us in this very thread.

Well i think Sikeliot's life is not much different

When someone does since 5 years or even more threads about Slavicized Greeks and tries to argue that Mainland Greeks almost are East European because compared
to Sicilians or some Greeks in the Island they have 5% or 10% more NE ancestry then this person has serious problems.

Don't even know when he started this trend with the Helleno Slavs.

[Myanthropologies]

I think Sikeliot is a great poster. I really like his posts on genetics and if you don't agree with him or have any issues he is always willing to discuss. Sikeliot looks at a lot of genetic studies and other related genetic material like Gedmatch results, nMonte etc. He's getting his information from reliable sources and makes interpretations from this. It makes for some interesting discussions. People should be open minded as far as genetics. If you don't agree with what he says just add some evidence to back up what you say. I've always found Sikeliot a very informed and polite person to discuss topics with. He does change his opinions as well with the evidence.

Don't get me wrong. I think Sikeliot has an agenda (but honestly, so do a lot of anthrofra members). He also does over-interpret ADMIXTURE, GEDmatch, etc without regard to the limitations of these programs. However, I think a lot of members on this forum are really mean to him for no reason. At the end of the day, what Sikeliot says often does have truth to it (even if he exaggerates the truth). I honestly think they are envious of his intelligence and are simply mad because of their inability to derail his points. Sikeliot is an amazing poster who contributes a lot the forum.

[Tauromachos]

Don't get me wrong. I think Sikeliot has an agenda (but honestly, so do a lot of anthrofra members). He also does over-interpret ADMIXTURE, GEDmatch, etc without regard to the limitations of these programs. However, I think a lot of members on this forum are really mean to him for no reason. At the end of the day, what Sikeliot says often does have truth to it (even if he exaggerates the truth). I honestly think they are envious of his intelligence and are simply mad because of their inability to derail his points. Sikeliot is an amazing poster who contributes a lot the forum.

He isn't realy analyzing

He seems to cherrypick often but he even has been caught openly cheating.

There was a thread were he posted a girl and said classify North Greek girl or something similar and after a Greek member found out that this
girl is Albanian living in Greece,he changed the title to classify Albanian girl from Greece.

About his Sicilian nightcub sets i don't know what i should think

The people he posts don't look atypical for South Italians necessarily"South Italians can have Semitic type looks yes" but he overemphasizes their Armenoidness
in my opinion and prefers do present these types of South Italians over others.

And on the other hand if i would want to present Greek Islanders i wouldn't post necessarily Nightclub pictures from Rhodos.
Because do you know how many foreign tourists are each summer in Greek Islands.?


Here you can see two videos with natural Greek Islanders from Dodecanese Islands

Its not difficult to see that this people don't look exactly like he presents South Italians types here of whom he claims they are the most
similar to these Islanders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXPTegi5qao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994pUKj4bcM

[Sikeliot]

He isn't realy analyzing

He seems to cherrypick often but he even has been caught openly cheating.

There was a thread were he posted a girl and said classify North Greek girl or something similar and after a Greek member found out that this
girl is Albanian living in Greece,he changed the title to classify Albanian girl from Greece.

About his Sicilian nightcub sets i don't know what i should think

The people he posts don't look atypical for South Italians necessarily"South Italians can have Semitic type looks also" but he overemphasizes their Armenoidness
in my opinion and prefers do present these types of South Italians over others.

And on the other hand if i would want to present Greek Islanders i wouldn't post necessarily Nightclub pictures from Rhodos.
Because do you know how many foreign tourists are each summer in Greek Islands.?


Here you can see two videos with natural Greek Islanders from Dodecanese Islands

Its not difficult to see that this people don't look exactly like he presents South Italians types here of whom he claims they are the most
similar to these Islanders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXPTegi5qao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994pUKj4bcM


I do think Dodecanese also have Armenoid/Semitic type appearances in the same way some Sicilians do. That video not so much but I have personally seen people from Rhodes and Kalymnos who do.

As for the Greek girl who turned out to be Albanian, I did change the title so it is not like I lied.

[Tauromachos]

I do think Dodecanese also have Armenoid/Semitic type appearances in the same way some Sicilians do. That video not so much but I have personally seen people from Rhodes and Kalymnos who do.

As for the Greek girl who turned out to be Albanian, I did change the title so it is not like I lied.

No they don't their facial features look in majority like what they are Greeks not Semitic.

If you look at the Minoan fishermen on the wall paintings of Knossos they don't have Semitic features neither

They have athletic body build and often lack the ovelshaped nose and face morph of Armenoids,they are more like Greeks in features but simply
have dark complexion.