The sound of Romance

[Comte Arnau]

Short samples of standard accents, from West to East.



Portuguese language
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Castilian language
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Catalan language
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French language
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Romansh language
b3gnqI7GKIo

Italian language
PznasfHTVig

Romanian language
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[Comte Arnau]

Trailer of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.



Italian language
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French language
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Catalan language
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Castilian language
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Note: Not dubbed to any other Romance languages, afaik.

[Aemma]

Short samples of standard accents, from West to East.



Portuguese language
q5P2x-60KFs

Castilian language
l-s0EuSLhvk

Catalan language
lr9cw1v9iz4

French language
3_Iok5d4lbE

Romansh language
b3gnqI7GKIo

Italian language
PznasfHTVig

Romanian language
3ebqS-yTWQw

Fascinating! I love this Ibex. Thank you! It's interesting how similar yet very different they all are. Of course the one I could understand was the French one and I'd say the one I could least understand (as in inablity to even pick out certain words) was Portuguese. It seemed to me that Castillian and Catalan were very similar (bear in mind I speak neither) as were Romansh and Italian (I speak neither of these either). Of course intuitively these two pairs would make sense due to each's proximity to the other. Romanian and Romansh seemed to have a similar vibe as well I think? Not sure.

But anyway, great post! Thank you! Lovely languages all of them to be sure! I liked to rolling Rs of Catalan btw! ;) :thumb001:

I'll try to find something similar in terms of the variety of French Canadian accents, one of these days. (Unless Acadian beats me to it of course! ;))

[Comte Arnau]

Thanks for the comments, Aemma. I also find all languages fascinating, but I'm particularly fond of the Romance or Neolatin ones, of course. :)


It seemed to me that Castillian and Catalan were very similar (bear in mind I speak neither) as were Romansh and Italian (I speak neither of these either). Of course intuitively these two pairs would make sense due to each's proximity to the other.

Well, bear in mind that these are standard 'tv' accents. Since Catalonia is nowadays within Spain, influence of Spanish on Catalan is noticeable in intonation and rythm patterns. However, Spanish is much closer to Portuguese, while Catalan is closer to Occitan, the native language of southern France. In fact, Catalan is even closer to French and the languages of northern Italy and Switzerland in some grammar and lexical aspects, as they all form a macro-Gallic group. But it is true and logical that, phonologically speaking, Catalan sounds more Iberian while Romansh sounds more Italian.

[Comte Arnau]

In conversation:



Galicians
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Grison Swiss
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Sardinians
fCZcq-Kf-EA

Arpitans (Border between France, Switzerland & Italy)
BQvmdLVQPdM

[Aemma]

Thanks for the comments, Aemma. I also find all languages fascinating, but I'm particularly fond of the Romance or Neolatin ones, of course. :)



Well, bear in mind that these are standard 'tv' accents. Since Catalonia is nowadays within Spain, influence of Spanish on Catalan is noticeable in intonation and rythm patterns. However, Spanish is much closer to Portuguese, while Catalan is closer to Occitan, the native language of southern France. In fact, Catalan is even closer to French and the languages of northern Italy and Switzerland in some grammar and lexical aspects, as they all form a macro-Gallic group. But it is true and logical that, phonologically speaking, Catalan sounds more Iberian while Romansh sounds more Italian.

Thanks for this Ibex. :)

Question: The French tv reporter I understand she probably speaks "the national language" but how different is Occitan in sound to that which we heard?

[Gaztelu]

You should post some videos of Astur-Leonese.

[Aemma]

You should post some videos of Astur-Leonese.

Yes and some other romance dialects if you would like. I'd love to hear them! I have no idea what Astur-Leonese is! :eek: :(

[Gaztelu]

I have no idea what Astur-Leonese is! :eek: :(

Introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturleonese

[Comte Arnau]

Question: The French tv reporter I understand she probably speaks "the national language" but how different is Occitan in sound to that which we heard?

To be honest, Occitan sounds to me like very old distorted Catalan spoken by a French person. :p

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But it's the language of the troubadours, and I consider them our northern brothers. :)

The Occitan anthem is 90% understandable to any Catalan, for instance.

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Occitan is not official in France or Italy, but it is official in the north-western corner of Catalonia, in its Gascon dialect.



You should post some videos of Astur-Leonese.


Yes and some other romance dialects if you would like. I'd love to hear them! I have no idea what Astur-Leonese is! :eek: :(

Asturleonese is one of the six Romance languages in Spain. In between Portuguese and Spanish.

http://www.kalipedia.com/kalipediamedia/lenguayliteratura/media/200704/17/lenguacastellana/20070417klplyllec_21.Ees.SCO.png

A woman reciting in Western Asturian. The boy speaks central/standard, I think.
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This woman presents in a more standard one the song Dios te llibre de Castiella, God free you from Castile.
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[Ibericus]

The catalan woman in the video speaks very bad catalan, this sounds more pure :

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[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Piedmontese (northwestern Italy)

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[Comte Arnau]

^ Funny lesson. :)


Three songs in other minor Romance languages, lyrics included:



Friulian (A là sù - From Up There)
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Gascon (Florença e Joan - Florence & John)
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Walloon (Li Tchant des Walons - The Song of the Walloons)
s0G6-U9ZRGk

[Comte Arnau]

Latin Croatia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Istrioti.jpg


Istriot is a Romance language related to the Ladin populations of the Alps. According to the Italian linguist Matteo Bartoli, the Ladin area extended until 1000 CE, from southern Istria to Friuli and eastern Switzerland.

Its classification remains unclear, due to the specificities of the language, which has always had a very limited number of speakers. Istriot can be viewed:

* as an independent Northern Italian dialect, belonging neither to the Venetian language nor to the Gallo-Italic group (opinion shared by linguists Tullio De Mauro and Maurizio Dardano);
* as a transitional variety between the Northern Italian Venetian language and the now extinct Dalmatian language;
* as an independent language of the Italo-Dalmatian group;
* as an independent Romance language.

When Istria was a region of the Kingdom of Italy, Istriot was considered by the authorities as a sub-dialect of Venetian.

Its speakers never referred to it as "Istriot". Traditionally, it had six names after the six towns where it was spoken. In Vodnjan it was named "Bumbaro", in Bale "Vallese", in Rovinj "Rovignese", in Šišan "Sissanese", in Fažana "Fasanese" and in Galižana "Gallesanese". The term Istriot was coined by the 19th century Italian linguist Graziadio Isaia Ascoli.

There are currently only about 1,000 speakers left, probably making it an endangered language.

Source: Wikipedia

The beautiful town of Rovinj is one of the places where the language can still be heard. The song La viecia Batana, which won a prize in 1907, has become a sort of anthem of the town.

Sta viecia batana - cun quatro paioi - meî pioûn ch'i la vardo, - pioûn ben i ga vuoi. - Oûn rimo zì coûrto, - quil'altro ligà, - sta viecia batana - ca pian ca la và! - I siè la zì longa - da qua feînt'in là, - par meî la zì oûn rigno: - lasimala stâ! - Sta viecia batana - cun quatro paioi - meî pioûn chi la vardo, - pioûn ben i ga vuoi. - Da sira o su l'alba, - cu suna miteîn - i ciugo oûn paneîto - e oûn quarto da veîn. - I 'ugo cantando - sta viecia canson - e i calo li arte - cu zì la stagion! - Li ride, li nasse, - li tieste cul sal; - d'agusto a satenbro - sa ciù el parangal. - Sta viecia batana - cun quatro paioi - meî pioûn chi la vardo, - pioûn ben i ga vuoi.


kz9BPpP21L0

[Comte Arnau]

Latin UK

In the UK, three dialects of the Norman Romance language persist.


Jèrriais is the form of the Norman language spoken in Jersey, in the Channel Islands, off the coast of France. It has been in decline over the past century as English has increasingly become the language of education, commerce and administration. There are very few people who speak Jèrriais as a mother tongue and, owing to the age of the remaining speakers, their numbers decrease annually. Despite this, efforts are being made to keep the language alive.

A similar language, Dgèrnésiais is spoken in neighbouring Guernsey; the language of Sark, Sercquiais, is a descendant of the Jèrriais brought by the Jersey colonists who settled Sark in the 16th century; and there is inter-comprehension with the Norman language of mainland Normandy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Channel_islands_location.png/240px-Channel_islands_location.png

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[Comte Arnau]

Two soothing songs by Maura Susanna in Valdotan, the most vigorous dialect of the Arpitan (Francoprovençal) language, the language of the Alps. It is spoken in the Aosta Valley, region of Italy bordering France and Switzerland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Map_Region_of_Valle_d%27Aosta.svg/250px-Map_Region_of_Valle_d%27Aosta.svg.png


La reserva
VeCuuwPMmHs

Lo conto de Granha (The Count of Granha)
sQy1v5w7JCo

[Comte Arnau]

Hercules - From Zero to Hero


CASTILIAN

Spain
bN_uAb6sYjA


Mexico
2Je5IUhjPuU
--
CATALAN

XxMfC77SdgY
--
FRENCH

France
6TJXZZeHBZ4


Canada
cC2kKgUiK4A
--
ITALIAN

wNrYsm89eC4
--
PORTUGUESE

Portugal
BdT9P7TrAkY


Brazil
icvSKOoEHUI

[Comte Arnau]

Three songs in Aragonese:

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr207/chorchon/AP/7bc418a5.jpg

S'ha feito de nuey 'Night has fallen', a love jota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jota_%28music%29)in Cheso dialect (Western Aragonese)
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Cinca traidora, about the preparation of a navata, an Aragonese log raft. In Sobrarbese dialect.
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Trango dople y china-chana, in a more standard Aragonese, with lyrics in Aragonese and Castilian.
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[Don Brick]

Great thread! Thanks for making this. :thumb001: I´ve started to study Spanish (Castilian) again. ;)

[Blossom]

Great thread! Thanks for making this. :thumb001: I´ve started to study Spanish (Castilian) again. ;)

and you do it pretty good..aww. You'll speak perfect castilian so damn soon. And you know what that means? Mmm!

[Comte Arnau]

I´ve started to study Spanish (Castilian) again. ;)

Then I have to post two basic old cartoons: El Cid and Don Quijote. :D


QauGbPYye9U


w4tFzD13hmc

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Bolognese (Gallo-Italian; the native dialect of my hometown):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts_ApZykR9Y&feature=related

[alzo zero]

Bolognese (Gallo-Italian; the native dialect of my hometown):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts_ApZykR9Y&feature=related
:p Bresciano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceu8mGLVWD8&feature=related

[Blossom]

Today I heard the cutest question haha, Don Draper's question of the day: ''Por qué porque no?:puppy_dp:''

[Comte Arnau]

Neapolitan is particularly well-known in the world thanks to some famous Neapolitan songs. I'm posting just three of them.


Guaglione
You are always under foot - You can't eat - You can't sleep - so sad my boy - you're jealous
You suffer, You want to die - Whats wrong with you...? - You're in love!
What do you know about love? - Go run to your mothers arms, you stupid boy
You need to learn about love - go run to your mamma maybe she'll understand.
Your just a silly boy - you stand under her balcony - you do not know women - you're still too young - you're just a kid
What is going on in your head? - Go, go play football.... what do these tears mean? - don't make me laugh
Go run to your mamma - you're just a kid - you don't know about life - go run to your mamma
Don't think of those beautiful eyes - They are not for you, go play with the rest of the kids - don't be discouraged son - there will be plenty of time to be love sick
who do you want to kiss - forget it for now
listen to your father - the time will come for you to stand under a balcony - you're always underfoot - you can't eat - you can't sleep - what's wrong with you?

nhZDjs8WXms


O surdato 'nnammurato (Soldier in Love) --Does Katy Perry fit in Naples? :)

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And the most famous of all, O Sole Mio (My Sun --and not It's now or never :D).

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[Foxy]

This is a song in the language of my region (it is our regional song). Unlucky there aren't serious videos in Abruzzese. At the moment this language is almost gone.

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[Bard]

Neapolitan is particularly well-known in the world thanks to some famous Neapolitan songs. I'm posting just three of them.


Guaglione
You are always under foot - You can't eat - You can't sleep - so sad my boy - you're jealous
You suffer, You want to die - Whats wrong with you...? - You're in love!
What do you know about love? - Go run to your mothers arms, you stupid boy
You need to learn about love - go run to your mamma maybe she'll understand.
Your just a silly boy - you stand under her balcony - you do not know women - you're still too young - you're just a kid
What is going on in your head? - Go, go play football.... what do these tears mean? - don't make me laugh
Go run to your mamma - you're just a kid - you don't know about life - go run to your mamma
Don't think of those beautiful eyes - They are not for you, go play with the rest of the kids - don't be discouraged son - there will be plenty of time to be love sick
who do you want to kiss - forget it for now
listen to your father - the time will come for you to stand under a balcony - you're always underfoot - you can't eat - you can't sleep - what's wrong with you?

[YOUTUBE]nhZDjs8WXms[YOUTUBE]


O surdato 'nnammurato (Soldier in Love) --Does Katy Perry fit in Naples? :)

[YOUTUBE]DJTRi7zh_fQ[YOUTUBE]


And the most famous of all, O Sole Mio (My Sun --and not It's now or never :D).

[YOUTUBE]d_mLFHLSULw[YOUTUBE]

I can't stand neapolitan dialect, not that I have anything against southern italian dialects (I love sicilian) but I really can't stand it.

Here is a tune from Veneto.
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Complete Lyrics: La Biondina in Gondoleta

La Biondina in gondoleta
L'altra sera g'ho menà:
Dal piacer la povereta,
La s'ha in bota indormenzà.
La dormiva su sto brazzo,
Mi ogni tanto la svegiava,
Ma la barca che ninava
La tornava a indormenzar.

Gera in cielo mezza sconta
Fra le nuvole la luna,
Gera in calma la laguna,
Gera il vento bonazzà.
Una solo bavesela
Sventola va i so' caveli,
E faceva che dai veli
Sconto el ento fusse più.

Contemplando fisso fisso
Le fatezze del mio ben,
Quel viseto cussi slisso,
Quela boca e quel bel sen;
Me sentiva drento in peto
Una smania, un missiamento,
Una spezie de contento
Che no so come spiegar!

M'ho stufà po', finalmente,
De sto tanto so' dormir,
E g'ho fato da insolente,
No m'ho avuto da pentir;
Perchè, oh Dio, che bele cosse
Che g'ho dito, e che g'ho fato!
No, mai più tanto beato
Ai mii zorni no son stà.

The other night I took
my blonde out in the gondola:
her pleasure was such
that she instantly fell asleep.
She slept in my arms
and I woke her from time to time,
but the rocking of the boat
soon lulled her to sleep again.

The moon peeped out
from behind the clouds;
the lagoon lay becalmed,
the wind was drowsy.
Just the suspicion of a breeze
gently played with her hair
and lifted the veils
which shrouded her breast.

As I gazed intently
at my love's features,
her little face so smooth,
that mouth, and that lovely breast;
I felt in my heart
a longing, a desire,
a kind of bliss
which I cannot describe!

But at last I had enough
of her long slumbers
and so I acted cheekily,
nor did I have to repent it;
for, God what wonderful things
I said, what lovely things I did!
Never again was I to be so happy
in all my life!

[Winterwolf]

Maybe it's not very traditional since I don't have a foible for folk music usually, but this one is special. I immediately fell in love with it the first time I heard it and ok, there are also some memories connected with it.

Anyway I don't understand a word of it, because I don't speak Italian, but it still hits me somehow.

wsUWgUKRupU

[Bard]

It's a very nice song of Apulia, but I can't understand a lot of words.

[Comte Arnau]

I can't stand neapolitan dialect, not that I have anything against southern italian dialects (I love sicilian) but I really can't stand it.

Nothing wrong with that. I love all Romance languages, instead. I find all of them have a special sound, hence why I created this thread. :)


Maybe it's not very traditional since I don't have a foible for folk music usually, but this one is special. I immediately fell in love with it the first time I heard it and ok, there are also some memories connected with it.

Anyway I don't understand a word of it, because I don't speak Italian, but it still hits me somehow.


This thread is intended for anything regarding the sound of Romance languages, not necessarily for traditional music. So cool. ;)

Even if you spoke Italian, you'd have difficulties to get it. It's in Apulian.

[Peyrol]

Piemonteis language

a very nice song
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a parody :laugh:
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[Bard]

Apparently the piedmonteis word for "Sir" is "Monsu" which is pretty close to "monsieur".

[Peyrol]

Apparently the piedmonteis word for "Sir" is "Monsu" which is pretty close to "monsieur".

I can show you many francesisms.

Surtì (go out)
Tombè (to fall)
Mison (house)
Pom (apple)
Travajè (to work)
Crava (goat)
Bòsch (wood)
Madamin (Lady)
Monsù (Sir, Lord, man)
Amusè (have fun)
Sombr (dark)
Sagrìn (preoccupation)
Pais (town)
Mersì (thank you)
Drapò (flag)
Frambosa (raspberry)
....

and many more....(see this (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_piemontese))

[Comte Arnau]

Some I'd say are not Francesisms, but common words between the French, the Catalans and North Italians. :)


I can show you many francesisms.

Surtì (go out) In Catalan, sortir
Tombè (to fall) tombar
Mison (house)
Pom (apple) poma
Travajè (to work) treballar
Crava (goat)
Bòsch (wood) bosc
Madamin (Lady)
Monsù (Sir, Lord, man)
Amusè (have fun)
Sombr (dark)
Sagrìn (preoccupation)
Pais (town)
Mersì (thank you) mercès
Drapò (flag)
Frambosa (raspberry)
....


I like how we, Gallo-Romans, eat the final vowels. :thumb001:

[alzo zero]

In my neck of the woods, "to work" is "laurà" (vs. standard Italian "lavorare") so we don't share that with you guys. On the other hand in Southern Italy they also use something like "travagghiu" I think, perhaps a remnant of the French colonisation. A word like our "burlà" ("to fall") is quite different from both Italian and Piemontese. "Bosc" is almost the same in Italian "bosco", but "mersì" and "monsù" do sound like French and I don't think they are used anywhere east of Piemonte.

[Peyrol]

In my neck of the woods, "to work" is "laurà" (vs. standard Italian "lavorare") so we don't share that with you guys. On the other hand in Southern Italy they also use something like "travagghiu" I think, perhaps a remnant of the French colonisation. A word like our "burlà" ("to fall") is quite different from both Italian and Piemontese. "Bosc" is almost the same in Italian "bosco", but "mersì" and "monsù" do sound like French and I don't think they are used anywhere east of Piemonte.

We use these words in Torino. :laugh:

Also, is used the word "Cerea" to say "Hello".

Also, in Cuneo province the use the word "pas" before the phrases for the negation is quite common.


The word "travajè" derives form the vulgar latin "Travaius", while the italian "Lavorare" and the bergamask/brescian "Laurà" derives from the classic latin word "Labor".

[alzo zero]

Also, is used the word "Cerea" to say "Hello".
In my area Cerea is a surname... :D


Also, in Cuneo province the use the word "pas" before the phrases for the negation is quite common.
I'd heard of it and as a matter of fact I was going to ask you if it was true. I have a friend from Bra but she doesn't speak a word of dialect.

[Peyrol]

In my area Cerea is a surname... :D


I'd heard of it and as a matter of fact I was going to ask you if it was true. I have a friend from Bra but she doesn't speak a word of dialect.

Yes, in the Val Germanasca and Val Maira, and also in the Saluzzo's valleys, is quite common.


Anyway,

Sx8rpJLVW_Q

[Ouistreham]

I can show you many francesisms.

Surtì (go out)
Tombè (to fall)
Mison (house)
Pom (apple)
Travajè (to work)
Crava (goat)
Bòsch (wood)
Madamin (Lady)
Monsù (Sir, Lord, man)
Amusè (have fun)
Sombr (dark)
Sagrìn (preoccupation)
Pais (town)
Mersì (thank you)
Drapò (flag)
Frambosa (raspberry)
....


Monsu and drapo are obviously French (or Franco-Provençal) borrowings.

Most of the other words are found in Occitan as well, and some in Occitan only. Especially crava : goat is in French chèvre (Franco-Provençal: [t]chièvre/a), in Occitan cabra but it is often modified by metathesis in craba.


Also, in Cuneo province the use the word "pas" before the phrases for the negation is quite common.


Uuh? "Before the phrases", or after the verb?

At any rate, the fact that one of the most illogical French phenomens (the use of pas only as a negation adverb in colloquial speech) has pervaded in Occitan and made inroads into Catalan and Piedmontese is stunning to say the least.

[Comte Arnau]

In my neck of the woods, "to work" is "laurà" (vs. standard Italian "lavorare") so we don't share that with you guys. On the other hand in Southern Italy they also use something like "travagghiu" I think, perhaps a remnant of the French colonisation.

In 'the West', <laborare> is used with the meaning of 'work the land, cultivate' (French 'labourer', Catalan 'llaurar', Spanish 'labrar', Portuguese 'lavrar').

I wouldn't say 'travailler' is French, as it's also used in West Iberia ('trabajar', 'trabalhar').


"Bosc" is almost the same in Italian "bosco",

Spanish and Portuguese also have 'bosque', but they took it from Catalan-Occitan 'bosc'. They used 'selva' before, which now they use for a thick wood. Aragonese still uses 'selva' as wood.


Monsu and drapo are obviously French (or Franco-Provençal) borrowings.

I think so. In Catalan, the words 'monsenyor', 'mossènyer' o 'mossèn' were used first to address high classes but now they're only use as religious titles. A mossèn is a priest today, for instance.


Most of the other words are found in Occitan as well, and some in Occitan only. Especially crava : goat is in French chèvre (Franco-Provençal: [t]chièvre/a), in Occitan cabra but it is often modified by metathesis in craba.

I agree. Aragonese also has metathesis: crapa, craba. I'd say metathesis is specially a Gascon-Aragonese thing.


Uuh? "Before the phrases", or after the verb?

At any rate, the fact that one of the most illogical French phenomens (the use of pas only as a negation adverb in colloquial speech) has pervaded in Occitan and made inroads into Catalan and Piedmontese is stunning to say the least.

Pas is used in Catalan to reinforce the negative:


No ho sé pas (I don't know it at all).
Vindràs? No pas! (Will you come? No way!)

It is also found in Aragonese.

Another more uncommon Gallo-Roman negative particle is: point (in French) / pon (in Aragonese) / punt (in Old Catalan).


French: Le cœur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. (The heart has its reasons that reason knows not.)
Western Aragonese: D'ixo no en queda pon. (Of this, nothing is left.)

Also common to the Gallo-Roman languages is the use of guère / g(u)aire for a negative quantity:


He hardly ate anything.
French: Il n'a guère mangé.
Occitan: A pas gaire manjat.
Catalan: No ha menjat gaire.
Aragonese: No ha minchato guaire.

For that use, both Italian and West Iberian (Spanish&Portuguese) would use molto/mucho/muito.

[Peyrol]

"Selva" is also used in standard italian, but sounds quite antiquate.

[Ibericus]

Piedmontese sounds a bit like catalan.

[Comte Arnau]

Piedmontese sounds a bit like catalan.

Not without a reason.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1681/romskem.jpg

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Some I'd say are not Francesisms, but common words between the French, the Catalans and North Italians. :)

Yes, in Piedmontese one should distinguish between forms that resemble French because of shared 'gallo-romance' isoglosses, and true Gallicisms, i.e. French loanwords, which are more copious than in other italian dialects (for obvious historical and geographical reasons).

[Foxy]

This is an Abruzzese lullaby:

rOKlT3Aod9w

[Boudica]

I know a lot of Italian, and a little bit of French.. I've always wanted to learn Portuguese though, it sounds beautiful..

[Peyrol]

Sardinian (two historical song)

Dimonios (with subtitiles)
Wcgt-0zLTlI

Innu Sardu (also first italian anthem from 1861 to 1871, with subtitles)
DNfRtGxgUNo

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

pramzan (the dialect of Parma, North Italy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ibf2VYheM


same dialect, a funny song about some obese sports journalist :D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4joj5kuxU

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

Tradizional music of Abruzzo (Italy)
Interesting to watch the video because the it shows pan Abruzzi people.

TToHw1q50hw

[Comte Arnau]

pramzan (the dialect of Parma, North Italy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ibf2VYheM


same dialect, a funny song about some obese sports journalist :D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4joj5kuxU

You can embed the videos in the post by just clicking on the YouTube button and adding between the tags the part of the link after the = sign. Much better. ;)

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

You can embed the videos in the post by just clicking on the YouTube button and adding between the tags the part of the link after the = sign. Much better. ;)

Thanks! In fact, I had tried to, but it didn't work out. Probably I hadn't removed the part of the link before the =.

[alzo zero]

Sardinian (two historical song)

Dimonios (with subtitiles)
Wcgt-0zLTlI
This is pretty cool but even with subtitles I hardly get it...


Bimbi ladini (no subtitles):

WobRMiOVwr8

@Svanhild: notice how the oldest people of South Tyrol look (and speak) much more like North Italians than like Germans. ;)

[Peyrol]

Sicilian dialect

wHk1H0MF75Q

TVPTX30Qw8s

[Comte Arnau]

Dors, min p'tit quinquin - A modern version of the famous Ch'ti lullaby (In Picard)

http://www.mamalisa.com/images/non_ml_images/picard_map.jpg


D-g6ZL3hD8I

[Rouxinol]

Azorean accent of São Miguel island (awful, I can't barely understand some phrases):

q-SHyUc1w0U

[Peyrol]

Song in standard italian (slowly spoken)

I5ouvJjHBqk


Another one

ajlxj1g2kxk

[askra]

Sardinian (two historical song)

Dimonios (with subtitiles)
Wcgt-0zLTlI

Innu Sardu (also first italian anthem from 1861 to 1871, with subtitles)
DNfRtGxgUNo

these songs are written precisely in Sardinian Logudorese, that is considered by many linguists as the most conservative neolatin language, it is spoken in the central and north of Sardinia (province of Nuoro and Sassari).

another song in Sardinian Logudorese (with subtitles)

Deus Ti Salvet Maria (the most famous pray in sardinian language)

hOyLF2bsPgI


Deus ti salvet Maria
chi ses de gratzia plena.

De gratzia ses sa vena e sa currente.

Su Deus Onnipotente
cun Tecus est istadu .

Pro chi t’at preservadu immaculada.
Beneitta et laudada
Supra tottus gloriosa.

Ses mama fizz’e isposa de su Segnore
Beneittu su fiore
ch’est fruttu de su sinu.

Gesus fiore divinu , Segnore nostru
Pregade a fizzu ostru
pro nois peccadores.

Chi tottus sos errores nos perdonet
E sa gratzia nos donet
in sa vida et in sa morte.

E in sa dicciosa sorte in Paradisu

[Foxy]

these songs are written precisely in Sardinian Logudorese, that is considered by many linguists as the most conservative neolatin language, it is spoken in the central and north of Sardinia (province of Nuoro and Sassari).

another song in Sardinian Logudorese (with subtitles)

Deus Ti Salvet Maria (the most famous pray in sardinian language)

hOyLF2bsPgI




It sounds a bit like ancient Romance (medieval French/Italian/Spanish).
About medieval languages, a song in medieval French. I dunno if it's just an error of the singer, but the R is vibrant like in modern Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.

UOIJo8fYhzo

[askra]

I dunno if it's just an error of the singer, but the R is vibrant like in modern Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.


i'm not sure, but in other videos found in youtube other singers pronounce the "r" in other way





__________
these are famous latin gregorian chants, but sung in sardinian logudorese:

Vexilla regis prodeunt

2jyvIMyI6lw


Dies Irae

XrPllDqGW6k

[Comte Arnau]

About medieval languages, a song in medieval French. I dunno if it's just an error of the singer, but the R is vibrant like in modern Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.

In Portuguese, not always. :)

Good appreciation, though. That's because the typical uvular French r is relatively modern, from the 17th century onwards. Old French had a vibrant one, just like the rest of Romance languages.

[Comte Arnau]

these are famous latin gregorian chants, but sung in sardinian logudorese:

Dies Irae

XrPllDqGW6k

Maria Carta was amazing.

She also made an awesome version of the Ave Maria in Catalan.


KZibwjqcn3o

[Foxy]

In Portuguese, not always. :)

Good appreciation, though. That's because the typical uvular French r is relatively modern, from the 17th century onwards. Old French had a vibrant one, just like the rest of Romance languages.

Old French is indeed far closer in the sound to romance than modern French.

This is in medieval Aquitanian (I dunno if it's old French or Spanish, I know only that I understand it very well, even if it has been written 1000 years ago in a foreign language. That's cool!).

TEXT:

Farai un vers, pos mi sonelh

e'm vauc e m'estauc al solelh.

Domnas i a de mal conselh,

e sai dir cals:

cellas c'amor de cavalier

tornon a mals.



Domna non fai pechat mortau

que ama cavalier leau;

mas s'ama monge o clergau,

non a raizo:

per dreg la deuri'hom cremar

ab un tezo.



En Alvernhe, part Lemozi,

m'en aniei totz sols a tapi:

trobei la moiller d'en Guari

e d'en Bernart;

saluderon mi simplamentz

per saint Launart.



La una'm diz en son latin:

- "O Dieus vos salf, don peleri;

mout mi semblatz de bel aizi,

mon escient;

mas trop vezem anar pel mon

de folla gent" -



Ar auziret qu'ai respondut;

anc no li diz ni bat ni but,

ne fer ni fust no ai mentaugut,

mas sol aitan:

- " Babariol, babariol,

babarian " _



- " Sor " - diz n'Agnes a n' Ermessen

- " Trobat avem que anam queren.

Sor, per amor Deu l'alberguem,

que ben es mutz,

e ja per lui nostre conselh

non er saubutz " -



La una'm pres sotz son mantel,

et mes m'en sa cambra, el fornel.

Sapchatz qu'a mi fo bon e bel

e'l focs fo bos

et eu calfei me volenter

als gros carbos.



A manjar mi deron capos,

e sapchatz agui mais de dos,

e no'i ac cog ni cogastros,

mas sol nos tres,

e'l pans fo blancs e'l vins fo bos

e'l pebr'espes.



- " Sor, s'aquest hom es enginhos,

e laissa lo parlar per nos:

nos aportem nostre gat ros

de mantenent,

que'l fara parlar az estros,

si de re'nz ment " _



Quant aguem begut e manjat,

eu mi despoillei a lor grat.

Detras m'aporteron lo gat

mal e felon;

la una'l tira del costat

tro al tallon.



Per la coa de mantenen

tira'l gat ez el escoissen:

plajas mi feron mais de cen

aquella ves;

mas eu no'm mogra ges enguers

qui m'aucizes.



- " Sor " - diz n'Agnes a n?ermessen

- " Mutz es, que ben es connoissen.

Sor, del banh nos apaireillem

e del sojorn " -

Ueit jorns ez ancar mais estei

az aquel torn.



Tant las fotei com auziretz:

cent et quatrevinz et ueit vetz,

que a pauc no'i rompei mos corretz

e mos arnes;

e no'us puesc dir los malavegz

tan gran m'en pres.


D41Ak0jkUYc

[Foxy]

^^^

Italian translation:

Il conte: COMPORRÒ UN CANTO POICHÉ SONNECCHIO E ME NE VADO GIRANDO SOTTO IL SOLE. CI SONO DONNE MALVAGE, ED IO SO DIRVI QUALI: QUELLE CHE L'AMOR D'UN CAVALIERE PORTANO AL PEGGIO. UNA DONNA NON FA PECCATO MORTALE SE AMA UN CAVALIERE LEALE, MA SE AMA UN MONACO O UN PRETE È FUORI DI SENNO: ANDREBBE BRUCIATA, MESSA SUL ROGO. UN GIORNO IN ALVERNIA, PASSATO IL LIMOSINO, ME NE ANDAVO TUTTO SOLO IN INCOGNITO. INCONTRAI LE MOGLI DI MESSER GUARI E DI MESSER BERNART CHE MI SALUTARONO DISCRETAMENTE PER SAN LEONARDO.

Agnese: CHE DIO VI SALVI MESSER PELLEGRINO! VOI MI SEMBRATE DI RAZZA NOBILE, MA, VEDETE, NOI VEDIAM GIRARE TANTA GENTE INSENSATA!

il conte: STATE A SENTIRE COME LE RISPOSI: FINSI D'ESSER MUTO, NON DISSI NE BI NE BA, MA SOLAMENTE: BA-BA-RI-OL, BA-BA-RI-OL, BA-BA-RI-AN.

Ermesenda: SORELLA ABBIAMO TROVATO QUELLO CHE CERCAVAMO! ACCOGLIAMOLO PER L'AMORE DI DIO NELLA NOSTRA CASA, PERCHÉ QUEST'UOMO È MUTO E CERTO PER MEZZO SUO I NOSTRI AFFARI NON VERRANNO CONOSCIUTI.

il conte: ALLORA UNA MI MISE SOTTO IL SUO MANTELLO E MI PORTÒ NELLA SUA STANZA AL CALDO. STATE SICURI CHE QUESTO MI PIACQUE, CHÈ IL FUOCO ERA BUONO E FORTE ED IO MI RISCALDAI VOLENTIERI VICINO AI GROSSI CEPPI. DA MANGIARE MI DETTERO CAPPONI E, BEN SAPPIATE, NE EBBI PIÙ DI DUE. NON C'ERA CUOCO NE GARZONE MA SOLTANTO NOI TRE; E IL PANE ERA BIANCO, IL VINO ERA BUONO E TUTTO ABBONDAVA DI PEPE.

Ermesenda: SORELLA, E SE QUEST'UOMO È FURBO E FINGE SOLAMENTE DI NON SAPER PARLARE?

Agnese: ALLORA FACCIAMO VENIRE IL NOSTRO BEL GATTONE CHE LO FARÀ SUBITO PARLARE SE IN QUALCHE MODO MENTE.

il conte: FINITO DI BERE E DI MANGIARE IO MI SPOGLIAI A LORO PIACIMENTO. SUL DORSO MI PIAZZARONO QUEL GATTO MALIGNO E FELLONE E UNA LO TIRÒ LUNGO IL COSTATO FINO AI TALLONI. ALLORA L'ALTRA GLI TIRA LA CODA E QUELLO GIÙ A GRAFFIARE. MI FECERO PIÙ DI CENTO FERITE QUELLA VOLTA, MA NON AVREI PARLATO NEANCHE SE MI AVESSERO AMMAZZATO.

Ermesenda: SORELLA, ORA SIAMO SICURE CHE QUEST'UOMO È VERAMENTE MUTO!

Agnese: PREPARIAMO DUNQUE IL BAGNO E IL NOSTRO DIVERTIMENTO!

il conte: OTTO GIORNI RIMASI IN QUELLA SITUAZIONE! STATE A SENTIRE QUANTO LE HO FOTTUTE: ESATTAMENTE CENTOVENTOTTO VOLTE, TANTO CHE PER POCO NON RUPPI IL MIO ARNESE E IL MIO EQUIPAGGIAMENTO! NON SO DIRVI QUANTI MALANNI ME NE SONO DERIVATI!

Are you understanding that this text, written in Middle Age, speaks about a man that has been raped by two sisters and fucked, he says, 180 times? He says: eight days I remained in that situation, and listen how much I fucked them, so much that I was going to break my club and my equipping! I am not able to tell you the pains that followed.

:D :D

[Comte Arnau]

This is in medieval Aquitanian (I dunno if it's old French or Spanish, I know only that I understand it very well, even if it has been written 1000 years ago in a foreign language. That's cool!).

French or Spanish? :confused: See where Old French and Spanish were spoken 1,000 years ago. ;)

http://imageshack.us/m/707/189/aplg1000.png

The language is obviously Occitan, the Romance language of love and troubadours in those times. We Catalans -and northern Italians too- used to write poetry in that language because it was very close to ours. Even today it's the language closest to mine, so I understand it quite well. :)

More precisely, it's Gascon, that is, Occitan on a Basque substrate. You can notice it in final l's becoming u's, like mortau instead of mortal.

[Foxy]

French or Spanish? :confused: See where Old French and Spanish were spoken 1,000 years ago. ;)

http://imageshack.us/m/707/189/aplg1000.png

The language is obviously Occitan, the Romance language of love and troubadours in those times. We Catalans -and northern Italians too- used to write poetry in that language because it was very close to ours. Even today it's the language closest to mine, so I understand it quite well. :)

More precisely, it's Gascon, that is, Occitan on a Basque substrate. You can notice it in final l's becoming u's, like mortau instead of mortal.

Excuse me Count, don't take it as a trolling, I ask you becouse I know you are expert about languages, but... has Arabic really been spoken in Spain by common people? Becouse in Sicily, for exemple, despite the Arabic domination, normal people continued to speak in Sicilian and in Sicilian is also their medieval licterature.

[Comte Arnau]

Excuse me Count, don't take it as a trolling, I ask you becouse I know you are expert about languages, but... has Arabic really been spoken in Spain by common people? Becouse in Sicily, for exemple, despite the Arabic domination, normal people continued to speak in Sicilian and in Sicilian is also their medieval licterature.

Common people mainly spoke Mozarabic, which in spite of the name, was a Romance language (some call it Romandalusi or Andalusi Latin). Educated people in the green area spoke Arabic too, yes, so many people in important cities were bilingual.

The language became extinct when northern languages (Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan) expanded southwards.

[Comte Arnau]

The kharjas are short lines in the Mozarabic Romance language that were written at the end of Arabic poems with the Arabic alphabet. You can see how they're clearly Latin, even if they used some Arabic word here and there.



¡Tanto amare, tanto amare,

habib, tant amare!

Enfermeron olios nidios,

e dolen tan male.


So much loving, so much loving, habib (beloved), so much loving
that my shining eyes got sick and now they hurt so much.



Vayse meu corachón de mib.

Ya Rab, ¿si me tornarád?

¡Tan mal meu doler li-l-habib!

Enfermo yed, ¿cuánd sanarád?


My heart is leaving me. Oh, Rab (Lord), will it come back to me?
It is so strong my pain for the habibi (beloved)! It is sick, when will it be cured?


http://images.conchaloren.multiply.com/image/1/photos/upload/300x300/SezYWgoKCCwAABFN6j81/corregido2a.jpg?et=9rYGa%2CP%2CWHIz5IoJEC2%2BDQ&nmid=0&nmid=232986781

[Ibericus]

Mozarabic was indeed a romance language, not arabic

[Comte Arnau]

In fact, if there hadn't been a Reconquista, it would probably be the most spoken language nowadays in Iberia. Although it would have split into several languages, probably into western (Toledan, Sevilian...) and eastern (Zaragozan, Valencian/Carthaginian...)

[Ouistreham]

A question for the Italians:

I can more or less understand most Italian dialects, or at least identify enough significant words in a clause to get the sense (Napolitan and Venetian are relatively easy).

But here we have something absolutely outlandish, Fabrizio De André's Genoese dialect. I can't get a single word of it! (except for 'lasagna' and another one).

How much are mainstream Italian speakers able to grasp THAT?
How come this language is so radically different from anything known on the Western Mediterranean shores?

(the vocal starts short before 1:00)

Mq1wJcQlDZY

Other than that, the late Fabrizio De André was really a genious, with fanstastic sidemen. It's pity he has remained virtually unknown outside of Italy, unlike Battisti or Paolo Conte.

[alzo zero]

How much are mainstream Italian speakers able to grasp THAT?
Very little only a few words here and there.


How come this language is so radically different from anything known on the Western Mediterranean shores?
It's the pronounce that makes it weird I think.

[Comte Arnau]

But here we have something absolutely outlandish, Fabrizio De André's Genoese dialect. I can't get a single word of it! (except for 'lasagna' and another one).


Come on, before saying lasagne he says something like cose da beire e cose da manjà, which clearly means 'things to drink and things to eat'. So at least that part is clearly about food. :p

[Peyrol]

I could understand a little of genvoeis only because i spent my holidays in Liguria.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

I can understand it somehow thanks to subtitles, but without them I'd probably grasp just very few words. In fact, Genoese is one of the hardest dialects in Italy to understand even for other Italians (once I read someone on the web say that it was the hardest together with Bolognese and Bergamasco, and I agree). It's because it has undergone several sound changes that altered the pronunciation: loss of intervocalic consonants, strange diphthongizations, and so on. It also has probably got lots of 'exotic' vocabulary, being the language of a major seaport.

[alzo zero]

I can understand it somehow thanks to subtitles, but without them I'd probably grasp just very few words. In fact, Genoese is one of the hardest dialects in Italy to understand even for other Italians (once I read someone on the web say that it was the hardest together with Bolognese and Bergamasco, and I agree). It's because it has undergone several sound changes that altered the pronunciation: loss of intervocalic consonants, strange diphthongizations, and so on. It also has probably got lots of 'exotic' vocabulary, being the language of a major seaport.
Is bolognese considered hard? I don't find it particularly "weird", like I know genovese and bergamasco/bresciano are for example.

[askra]

A question for the Italians:

How much are mainstream Italian speakers able to grasp THAT?
How come this language is so radically different from anything known on the Western Mediterranean shores?

Mq1wJcQlDZY


i understand genoese quite well :)
because here in the north west of Sardinia is spoken the sassarese language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassarese_language, that is deeply influenced by genoese, though it is primarily classified as a corso-tuscan language.

a folk song in Genoese Language compared with Sardinian Sassarese:
Wzo7Bg1ZrMg

[Comte Arnau]

Two songs in Asturian:



La xana'l·lagu - The Lake's Xana (Asturian fairy nymph)
uv_SGIQA_Mg


Folk song De Grau a Concarneau
-Mariana was at home doing something with the priest when her husband came back from the mountain, gun on his shoulder...
agcSjOFo5Mw

[AntonyCapolongo]

Prouvençau (Provençal)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcfOpsAECA&feature=player_embedded

Jan Petit que danço, pèr lou rèi de Franço
'mé la man, man, man ! :D

French with Southern accent

Toulouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcyKJO82_DE&feature=related

South-West (very strong accent)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YcySIR4T6Q&feature=related

Marseille
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVNarSZjPn8

[Comte Arnau]

Prouvençau (Provençal)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcfOpsAECA&feature=player_embedded

Jan Petit que danço, pèr lou rèi de Franço
'mé la man, man, man ! :D

In things like this one still sees the common bonds of the people of (h)oc! :)


The Joan Petit is known by all children in Catalonia:
El Joan Petit quan balla, balla, balla, balla,
amb la mà, mà, mà!

AywrL3n3eAk

And in Aragon it's being recovered via folk groups:
Chuan Chiquet que danza quan plena la pancha
con o piet, piet, piet!

wAGqbjnpssw

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

the calabrese tarantella

B_2DWJeZZvk

KlsIlGtUzpU




the abruzzi tarantella

D5Ff2zK4cWk





v=-pYEXjGnns4


acLwxwWpaGQ

ZeTQBQg95q4





the Campanian tarantella

JOyg6oX6pvM



Lucania tarantella

9RdPPDF_gDw



Apulian Tarantella

grNiwgcaPmA

[Peyrol]

Luna Mezz 'o mare is sicilian, not campanian.

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

the calabrese tarantella

B_2DWJeZZvk

KlsIlGtUzpU




the abruzzi tarantella

D5Ff2zK4cWk





v=-pYEXjGnns4


acLwxwWpaGQ

ZeTQBQg95q4





the Campanian tarantella

-pYEXjGnns4



Lucania tarantella

9RdPPDF_gDw



Apulian Tarantella

grNiwgcaPmA

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

The enterpreter is Napolitan, I' m going to correct the mistake.

Here he sings the Tarantella Napoletana

-pYEXjGnns4

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

Also in Sardinia very nice music



6QZYaS20UwU

bl2xTOxtHHY

[askra]

Also in Sardinia very nice music


i guess you are sarcastic in that comment,
however that kind of singing is classed among intangible world heritage by the UNESCO.

It has prehistoric origin, and it is typical of central Sardinia.
moreover it is similar to the Tuvan throat songs of the Mongolians.


___________________________________


i add this archaic form of rap music from Sardinia followed by some throat songs
-rDNvKEFiG8

[alzo zero]

Also in Sardinia very nice music
Not as good as your folk music. :)

NJRA9sCzjmU

[Comte Arnau]

Let us not spoil a nice thread, please. Back to class.

Best aria ever. Or why any Romance language sounds nicer to express love than any other family of languages. :cool:


FMl124VvFRg

[MST3K]

Romansch is beautiful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Chce4VzcmU

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

The striking thing about Romansch is that it totally sounds like German. In fact, I barely understand a word when I hear it spoken, while in written form it isn't so strange or aberrant for a Romance language. It's the accent that baffles me.
This is not to say that it doesn't sound nice, of course.

[Comte Arnau]

To me, the phonemes sound German, but the intonation sounds Italian.

However, listening to these people, I find some have a more Italian intonation, some have a more German one, and some have a different one -maybe the properly Romansh one?

uHvxPriXWf4

[Ibericus]

Romansch sounds like a hybrid between italian and german, but more german than italian.

[alzo zero]

LOL Krauts with Italian names! :D

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

To me, the phonemes sound German, but the intonation sounds Italian.

However, listening to these people, I find some have a more Italian intonation, some have a more German one, and some have a different one -maybe the properly Romansh one?

uHvxPriXWf4

Maybe they're Italian- or German speakers respectively, who have learnt Romansh but don't have it as their real native language. For the same reason Occitan is usually spoken with heavy French accents, especially by young people who have learnt it for cultural reasons; and even the phonetics of many Italian dialects are getting more and more influenced by standard Italian, especially in younger speakers.

[Ouistreham]

Romansch sounds like a hybrid between italian and german, but more german than italian.

Romantsch is indeed heavily influenced phonetically by Swiss German. It's one of those minority languages that are in the process of losing their native accent — which is generally the last stage before disappearance.

Similarly,

• Scottish Gaelic sounds like (Scottish) English,
• Frisian sounds like Dutch,
• Modern Breton sounds like French.

Franco-Provençal of Val-d'Aoste tends nowadays to sound like Italian: the old lady on the video stills sounds French, but the announcer's voice and accent are definitely Italian.

BQvmdLVQPdM

[alzo zero]

Franco-Provençal of Val-d'Aoste tends nowadays to sound like Italian: the old lady on the video stills sounds French, but the announcer's voice and accent are definitely Italian.
Why is it supposed to sound French? Occitan is equidistant to neighbouring French and Piemontese. As a matter of fact the old lady's accent may as well be Piemontese for all I can tell...

[Comte Arnau]

Why is it supposed to sound French? Occitan is equidistant to neighbouring French and Piemontese. As a matter of fact the old lady's accent may as well be Piemontese for all I can tell...

Arpitan is not Occitan.

[alzo zero]

Arpitan is not Occitan.
Yes, sorry. Arpitan.

It is not French so why should it sound French?

[alzo zero]

Interview with a band from Aosta. Apparently they are native Italian speakers with a Piemonteseish accent:

RmwxZrzZJ0I

Interesting comparison with "Italians" from Alto Adige / South Tyrol (from 0:55):

aVeS8Y_BWc4

[Ouistreham]

It is not French so why should it sound French?

Because it's not supposed to sound otherwise!

Franco-Provençal ("arpitan" is one of the most ludicrous words ever coined) is part of the Oïl dialect continuum while morphologies lean towards Occitan — hence its name: phonetically French, philologically Provençal.

I remember that in the 80's there was a very obvious difference between people over fifty and those under thirty. The old ones could speak French without any accent other than the familiar intonations of French Savoyard, while the others sounded definitely like foreigners, even when they had a better command of grammar and a richer vocabulary.

Strangely, it seems a process of phonetical assimilation in the opposite way is taking place in Corsica. More and more Corsicans tend to refrain from rolling their 'r's when speaking in their Italian dialect. Which sounds downright weird.

[alzo zero]

Because it's not supposed to sound otherwise!
Is the patois closer to French than it is to Piemontese? I don't think that the old lady of your previous video had a distinctive French accent, maybe Tribuno who is more familiar with Piemontese can help...


More and more Corsicans tend to refrain from rolling their 'r's when speaking in their Italian dialect. Which sounds downright weird.
For example?

[Damião de Góis]

Nice thread :thumb001:

Here are some classic cartoon openings in portuguese:

HxgyZOVBPdI

TAz8YW0AUdM

_zBgPhsxfhI

[Treffie]

Similarly,

• Scottish Gaelic sounds like (Scottish) English,


Scots Gaelic speakers sound quite different from English speaking Scots.

[Logan]

Scots Gaelic speakers sound quite different from English speaking Scots.


Lktt_DlpsJA

[Damião de Góis]

Sesame Street

X4GlVunHdZo

I don't remember this one... maybe i didn't like it at the time? :D

5fQsYbH5Wb8

[Treffie]

Lktt_DlpsJA

Yes, I know that they sound different when speaking Gaelic, but their accents are quite different when they're speaking English too. The accent of the Outer Hebrides is quite deep and rounded.

[Comte Arnau]

Nice thread :thumb001:

Here are some classic cartoon openings in portuguese:

HxgyZOVBPdI

TAz8YW0AUdM

_zBgPhsxfhI

I never really liked the Portuguese version of the DB opening. It's way too 'pop-ish', it lacks the rock rawness of most versions. The Castilian version sounds lame too because it looks directly translated from the Catalan. (DB was dubbed earlier to Catalan, Galician and Basque than to Spanish)

Conversely, I like the fact that you keep the original versions for the Once Upon A Time series. By some weird reason, Spain was the only European country that felt like changing the opening themes of the first two (Man and Space), with classical music too but more childlike voices.

ALN9zw9DxGU

As for the Tom Sawyer song, you took it from the Spanish version. And it seems you didn't even care to adapt the song, because puente and mente rhyme in Spanish, but ponte and mente don't in Portuguese. :D

(Sorry for the letters, but it was hard to find the Castilian dub instead of the "Latino")
5ZP1D2dG2sQ

I remember watching it in Catalan, with the same theme song but rhyming in Catalan :D. Looks like nobody uploaded it in YouTube though.

[Damião de Góis]

I never really liked the Portuguese version of the DB opening. It's way too 'pop-ish', it lacks the rock rawness of most versions. The Castilian version sounds lame too because it looks directly translated from the Catalan. (DB was dubbed earlier to Catalan, Galician and Basque than to Spanish)

I thought that was the universal Dragon Ball song? You mean each country has its song? I do like the portuguese song. It sounds nice.


Conversely, I like the fact that you keep the original versions for the Once Upon A Time series. By some weird reason, Spain was the only European country that felt like changing the opening themes of the first two (Man and Space), with classical music too but more childlike voices.

ALN9zw9DxGU

Yeah i still think the french version is the best for Once Upon a Time...Life. That's why i didn't post the portuguese version, because it was so much worse.

_2ZaBCZZMwY

As for the castillian version of Once Upon a Time in Space i can see why they changed it. Our version sounds too serious, not like a kid's song.


As for the Tom Sawyer song, you took it from the Spanish version. And it seems you didn't even care to adapt the song, because puente and mente rhyme in Spanish, but ponte and mente don't in Portuguese. :D

(Sorry for the letters, but it was hard to find the Castilian dub instead of the "Latino")
5ZP1D2dG2sQ

lol, i see now that we did. I didn't know that :D

[Comte Arnau]

I thought that was the universal Dragon Ball song? You mean each country has its song? I do like the portuguese song. It sounds nice.

Listen to the original Japanese. Most language versions in the world kept this rock rythm. You made it pop. :D

_LkD6HH4g8s


Yeah i still think the french version is the best for Once Upon a Time...Life. That's why i didn't post the portuguese version, because it was so much worse.

_2ZaBCZZMwY

Well, the French is the original and it was performed by the Belgian Sandra Kim, who had won at Eurovision the year before. But I think the adaptations into Spanish and German were nice. Not so much for the English one this time, as it sounds a bit forced. (They're not so used to dubbing :D) Italians directly spoiled it.

Spanish:
xTlOoLuEjIM

German:
k-wdsM-7W_g

English:
-2h1jUpqzcc

Italian:
cyJ1Wup5nk4

[Damião de Góis]

lol, italians went creative there. Well, i don't feel as bad to post our version now:

u59Pq3giZLw

[Comte Arnau]

Dragon Ball GT in Galician: (You understand it, don't you? :D)


KT-c4szLt9U

In Catalan, with subs in Catalan (up) and Spanish (down):


iglL39SQZ0A

[Damião de Góis]

Dragon Ball GT in Galician: (You understand it, don't you? :D)


KT-c4szLt9U

Yes i understand most of it, apart form the odd word. (Corazón said in a very castillian way :p)


In Catalan, with subs in Catalan (up) and Spanish (down):


iglL39SQZ0A

I can't say the same about this one :eek:

I never watched Dragon Ball GT, last one i watched was Dragon Ball Z... but i found the opening in portuguese. First time i'm hearing it:

7LyNFxnv78w

I don't like it, give me the original Dragon Ball pop song in portuguese :D

[Comte Arnau]

Yes i understand most of it, apart form the odd word. (Corazón said in a very castillian way :p)

Oh, good. You're learning Galician the fast way. :D


I can't say the same about this one :eek:

Hehe. And some here will say there's not a West/East divide... :laugh:


I never watched Dragon Ball GT, last one i watched was Dragon Ball Z... but i found the opening in portuguese. First time i'm hearing it:

7LyNFxnv78w

I don't like it, give me the original Dragon Ball pop song in portuguese :D

Hehe. Looks like your version of the song is a very free translation. :)

Truth is, I haven't really watched the GT either. I also watched the first two arches, the first one of them being more than great, mythical. I don't know what happens with the Japanese, that they make great funny entertaining cartoons but after a while they turn up being way too serious and repetitive. Looks like they don't know where to stop. :p

[Damião de Góis]

I think weather girls are a good way of hearing languages too. Got any Catalan ones? :D
Can you understand her btw?

SXjllqlcR0w

[Comte Arnau]

I think weather girls are a good way of hearing languages too. Got any Catalan ones? :D
Can you understand her btw?


Nice voice. And yes, I can. 98% of it. ;)

Can you say the same of this Catalan one? What would be the percentage? :)

WYZ9BLi6pTE

[Damião de Góis]

Nice voice. And yes, I can. 98% of it. ;)

Can you say the same of this Catalan one? What would be the percentage? :)


lol, i would say only about 15-20% :embarrassed

[Comte Arnau]

lol, i would say only about 15-20% :embarrassed

You'll understand this one much better. She has a Catalan accent, but she's speaking in Spanish here. :D


dazY2H7wSrU

[Damião de Góis]

You'll understand this one much better. She has a Catalan accent, but she's speaking in Spanish here. :D


I understand her completely. I have spanish TV channels since 1999 or 2000 and she is speaking with a neutral accent and slowly there.

[Comte Arnau]

I understand her completely. I have spanish TV channels since 1999 or 2000 and she is speaking with a neutral accent and slowly there.

Her Spanish is the standard Castilian learned in all of northern Spain, but one can notice a Catalan accent in her. It is not extreme, but most young urban Catalans don't have extreme accents any more. Whether this is good or bad, I don't know...

[Amapola]

gNvlD4zJtI8
Dartacán, my childhood love :eyes

SonPcmLZCl4

All the languages linked together in the same intro. I dislike the French one. :eek:

[Comte Arnau]

SonPcmLZCl4

All the languages linked together in the same intro. I dislike the French one. :eek:

I was unaware of some of the dubs. Definitely, along with Willy Fogg, the most international Spanish cartoon ever. Funnily both were about French books.

Now that I notice, in a couple of months it'll be 30 years since the original run of this cartoon. Some people are getting oldie... :p

[Damião de Góis]

I was unaware of some of the dubs. Definitely, along with Willy Fogg, the most international Spanish cartoon ever. Funnily both were about French books.

Now that I notice, in a couple of months it'll be 30 years since the original run of this cartoon. Some people are getting oldie... :p

Dartacão is huge here among people who grew up in the 80s. The intro music is played on some clubs sometimes ;)

_2VzX3JBGRI

[Amapola]

I didn't know it was Spanish :eek:

[Comte Arnau]

Dartacão is huge here among people who grew up in the 80s. The intro music is played on some clubs sometimes ;)


Lol. I know a club where they always put it before turning on the lights. :p

But as you say, I doubt that anyone born in the '90s knows who Dartacán is.

[Amapola]

syxGGxT7_2Y

:fdgd:

I hate the Andalusian personification of Tico though.

[supergiovane]

do you have any adaptation of Hokuto No Ken?

[Comte Arnau]

I didn't know it was Spanish :eek:

Aww, but that's a blasphemy!! :eek::D

If you hear Dogtanian intro in English, you'll even hear "Dartacán Dartacán" in the choir! :D

It was a sort of golden age, I'd say. BRB joined with Nippon Animation (the Japs were far more advanced than any country in animation -they still are, but now it's not so obvious) and both made three great cartoons of the early '80s: Ruy el pequeño Cid, Dartacán (Dogtanian in English) and Willy Fog (Around the World in 80 days). Then came David el Gnomo. In the late eighties, the founder of BRB, a Majorcan, focused on the Catalan TV and two lesser known jewels were born: the Bobobops and a Història de Catalunya for children. After that, Las mil y una Américas, remakes and other things with less quality, IMO.


syxGGxT7_2Y

:fdgd:

I hate the Andalusian personification of Tico though.

If it makes you feel better, Tico became Italian in the English version. :laugh:

[Comte Arnau]

Catalan from the island of Majorca:



husRQUWoE6w


7JQ86pZ_KAQ


9jCxxrJDn2w


29LFGpFtrKo


XFSCueo9VGg

[Comte Arnau]

Some Occitan:

The beautiful song My Homeland, with subtitles in English. How great the sound of Romance can be...


zY2eFzcL44Y


Urban Marseillese, Provençal "folk-rap". Don't speak to me about working! :)


80o739niNIA


Tender love ballad by singer-songwriter La Sauze:


hXHk_XPH_5Y

[Gargoris]

But as you say, I doubt that anyone born in the '90s knows who Dartacán is.

FALSE !!!
I know him very well like much of the Portuguese youth born in the 90's, I can assure you that. Everybody knows the tune by heart , sometimes it is even sang in some "praxes".

[Peyrol]

Cuneese Arpìtan language (from Southern Piedmont)

X56RmIFgxfc

CXE-EOMWXZY

ISphuKRRvGQ

9UA4XNZrr9c

[Portukalos]

Ok this is Provençal , the language of my natale region , what does it sound like ?

-b9jXoVBLzI

[Comte Arnau]

Jimmy Fontana's Il Mondo (The World), in Italian:


OLikC7s6zPk

Fontana himself singing Il Mondo in Catalan (El Món), with a surprisingly excellent pronunciation.


2kLWUEZWVbE

The most recent cover of the many covers of the song in Spanish. With a very Med clip.


867NagfZ1L8

PS: I'd like to know if there are Portuguese and French versions of the song.

[Peyrol]

Bergamask (eastern lombard) language


Sung

5jxI9khh08g


Spoken

JyJ2K_a46Yo

ft9xNF-_Jvc

[Comte Arnau]

^ Sounds cute to me! :)

I can get quite from the sung one, but not much from the spoken one. The first spoken one is a bit like wtf? :D

[Peyrol]

^ Sounds cute to me! :)

I can get quite from the sung one, but not much from the spoken one. The first spoken one is a bit like wtf? :D

The fist speaker it's a old man from Valle Seriana, the birthplace of my mother. Actually, bergamask spoken here it's quite antiquate than regular bergamask.

How sounds to you this language? :D

[Comte Arnau]

The fist speaker it's a old man from Valle Seriana, the birthplace of my mother. Actually, bergamask spoken here it's quite antiquate than regular bergamask.

How sounds to you this language? :D

Hard to say. I notice differences within the Gallo-Italic group, but I can't tell so easily.

I might be wrong, but it sounds somewhat more influenced by Italian than Piedmontese. Specially the second video. Loved the song, btw.

[Peyrol]

Hard to say. I notice differences within the Gallo-Italic group, but I can't tell so easily.

I might be wrong, but it sounds somewhat more influenced by Italian than Piedmontese. Specially the second video. Loved the song, btw.

Ahahaha, all Italy consider bergamask the hardest language to understand :D

For me it's very easy because my grandparents and my mother speaks this language everyday.

There are some unknown word in bergamask, especially in the dialect spoken in Valle Seriana and in the Presolana...some archaic word like Zu (pig), bärgiöt (bowl), trönkà (to drink), baghèt (bagpipe), sciä döcà (come here, stand up), piirü (fork), ränza (hatchet), bröt (bread), bezöt (sheep), piöck (stone),etc

[Comte Arnau]

Ahahaha, all Italy consider bergamask the hardest language to understand :D

For me it's very easy because my grandparents and my mother speaks this language everyday.

There are some unknown word in bergamask, especially in the dialect spoken in Valle Seriana and in the Presolana...some archaic word like Zu (pig), bärgiöt (bowl), trönkà (to drink), baghèt (bagpipe), sciä döcà (come here, stand up), piirü (fork), ränza (hatchet), bröt (bread), bezöt (sheep), piöck (stone),etc

Interesting!

I can see where some of those words might come from, but "piirü"? :confused:

[Peyrol]

Interesting!

I can see where some of those words might come from, but "piirü"? :confused:

Your opinion about other words?

Yes, Piirü sounds strange...could be a camunic (pre-indoeuropean) heritage.

[mihaitzateo]

Romanian language got most harsh sound from romance languages.
It kept all PIE diacritics,so romanians have no problem to pronounce in german or in english if they want to learn those languages.
For example no romance language got what english people are calling schwa,like you pronounce the indefinite article from a cat.
In romanian that sound that is pretty frequent,not as frequent as in english,is spelled with a with small cap above:
ă
Listen a little to how you water in romanian:
apă - http://www.forvo.com/search/ap%C4%83/
Listen there how you say runing water in romanian,see that is last.
That is very close to german/english sonority,not to romance language sonority.
Take as you to snake in romanian:
șarpe
That ș is pronounced as you pronounce the sh from english word sharp.
In fact if you would add to sharp english word pronounciation an e at end you obtain the exact pronunciation of romanian word for șarpe.
There is also the sound â,which is common I think to slavic languages.
Take for example as you say thinking in romanian:
gândi
Listen to forvo:
http://www.forvo.com/search/g%C3%A2ndi/
Take how you say in romanian cabbage:
varză
And listen to forvo:
http://www.forvo.com/search/varz%C4%83/
There are other sounds very close to german/english in romanian,which are not present in any other romance language.
Now are you still considering romanian a pure romance language?
I like to see romanian language like a language with german-english-slavic sonority but with a lot words taken from latin,with words from proto-slavic (romanian also got words from proto-slavic).
Romanian language is unique.

[Peyrol]

^

The 1,200,000 of your countrymen here in Italy have no problem to learn and speak a good italian, certainly due to the common roots.

[Comte Arnau]

Your opinion about other words?

Yes, Piirü sounds strange...could be a camunic (pre-indoeuropean) heritage.

Well, I'm not sure about any word, but at first sight zu seems to come from Latin sus, while words like trönka and bröt look extremely Germanic... But I just can't see any relationship with piirü, and sounds so strange, as if it was from Finnish :D or a non-European word. But I'm not well acquainted with substrata in the area, so it could well be as you say.


Romanian language got most harsh sound from romance languages.
It kept all PIE diacritics,so romanians have no problem to pronounce in german or in english if they want to learn those languages.
For example no romance language got what english people are calling schwa,like you pronounce the indefinite article from a cat.
In romanian that sound that is pretty frequent,not as frequent as in english,is spelled with a with small cap above:
ă
Listen a little to how you water in romanian:
apă - http://www.forvo.com/search/ap%C4%83/
Listen there how you say runing water in romanian,see that is last.
That is very close to german/english sonority,not to romance language sonority.

Man, schwa is the most common vowel sound in Catalan. :D



Take as you to snake in romanian:
șarpe
That ș is pronounced as you pronounce the sh from english word sharp.
In fact if you would add to sharp english word pronounciation an e at end you obtain the exact pronunciation of romanian word for șarpe.

This sound exists in almost all Romance languages.


There is also the sound â,which is common I think to slavic languages.
Take for example as you say thinking in romanian:
gândi
Listen to forvo:
http://www.forvo.com/search/g%C3%A2ndi/

Now that is true, that is a sound that doesn't exist in other Romance languages.


Take how you say in romanian cabbage:
varză
And listen to forvo:
http://www.forvo.com/search/varz%C4%83/
There are other sounds very close to german/english in romanian,which are not present in any other romance language.
Now are you still considering romanian a pure romance language?
I like to see romanian language like a language with german-english-slavic sonority but with a lot words taken from latin,with words from proto-slavic (romanian also got words from proto-slavic).
Romanian language is unique.

I'm afraid to say that, except for the î/â sound, all the other sounds of Romanian exist in the Romance languages too. :(

[mihaitzateo]

I know plenty of romanians who left in US and are speaking english without any problem with same accent as native americans/uk natives.
And what is more weird is that they are forgeting romanian language.
Think that proves that romanians got latin only for some reasons in the past,maybe because those times Roman Empire was quite strong,or maybe because some brain-washed people made agressive propaganda to favour this.
Now a lot of words from english are taken so romanian starts to get back something from her dacian sonority.
As for going to Italy/France after Roman Empire killed 100.000 dacian males and shifted genetic configuration of dacians with this genocide, from being mostly ash blonde with blue eyes to being mostly brown haired with brown eyes....meh, never.Those people did not knew history,this is why they left to Italy.
Happily dacian women took mostly men from our south slavs brothers as DNA testing shows (they did this so the dacian people would not perish) and very few men from Roman Empire.I think they took more men from gepids goths and visigoths than from Roman Empire.
(think most R1B from Romania is germanic,and not latin;they did some genetic testing in Moldavia and they found ~6% I1A+I1C which is cleary germanic or scandinavian).
I have no "common heritage" with the spiritual descendents of Roman Empire who admire this empire.
Goths and visigoths and gepids which were some kind of south swedes or/and germans helped poor dacian people to gain back their dignity after the genocide which Roman Empire made with the dacian soldiers (which were most of the dacian males) that surrendered and after all were slaughtered (100.000 male dacians were killed than),by freeing them from the opression of Roman Empire.In history is not told that the dacians fought against gepidae or goths or visigoths.But they fiercely fought against Roman Empire troops.
So I love scandinavians and germans.
Beside,romanians are humiliated in Italy,some romanians got attacked by some italians because they were romanians,other italians called romanians gypsies.
In France,some french people called romanians gypsies also and so on.

Romanian language is a combination between slavic languages and germanic languages that took words from latin,but is not romance.Go check this DNA analysis from Moldavia:
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=981561349&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=981561349.pdf
Romance speakers with 40% I2A+7.5% (I1A+I1C+unknown M170) +20% R1A1?
Ye,sure.

[mihaitzateo]

Well I searched for that sound (schwa) in catalan and I could not found any word with it.
Can you give an example?

[Prince Carlo]

@Mihaitzateo: Romanians are South-Eastern Euros who happen to speak a Romance language.
Race =/= Language. On Dodecad/Eurogenes Romanians form a cluster with Bulgarians and Serbs.

PS Anyway most Balkan people pass here unnoticed, unlike Poles, Ukrainians, Scandinavians, Russians... who stick out like sore thumbs.

[Comte Arnau]

Romancist forever... Sweetest tongues in the world.

Mulan singing a song in: Brazilian Portuguese, Canadian French, European Spanish, European Portuguese, Catalan, European French, Italian, Mexican Spanish and Romanian.

(Correct me if I made any mistakes, please)

BRA: Olhe bem a perfeita esposa jamais vou ser
CND: d'une femme idéale. Être épouse, ce serait pourtant bien normal.
ESP: Donde voy llevo la inquietud si yo misma soy
POR: Só farei a todos mal.
CAT: Qui és aquest reflex? Té els ulls drets cap a mi.
FRA: Pourquoi, miroir, réfléchis-tu sans me voir ?
ITA: Chi sono e chi sarò? Lo so io e solo io.
MEX: Cuando en mi reflejo yo me veré en verdad.
ROM: Nu doresc să fiu doar eu cu adevărat.

cr82tasVJgk

[Peyrol]

^

italian traslation has another meaning than some other languages...but very good Conte Arnaudo.



listen these :D

qJ5OWlnEBaY

CS2NQaEKmEY

2pgXIfIk1IM

[Incal]

Spanish vs. Spic

1rlsV7hFA3M

[Comte Arnau]

listen these :D

qJ5OWlnEBaY


Nice version! I like his voice better than the one in the Catalan version.

Y8qy1LJZEOI

Besides, Italian is really clear, I can understand the whole lyrics. :cool: I wonder how much would you get of the intro in Catalan. :D

240hRQF1fqg

[Peyrol]

I understand some, but not all...very fast spoken.

[Foxy]

Sardinian to me sounds a bit like Portuguese...

XyK2OnoQBy0

(The part in Sardinian is that with subtitles).

[Peyrol]

^

What about fast spoken valserianese bergamask? :D

JyJ2K_a46Yo

[Foxy]

The volume is too low. :(

[Peyrol]

Yea, unfortunately...i'm looking for a better registration, but there aren't on YT.

[Meerkat.86]

Sardinian to me sounds a bit like Portuguese...

XyK2OnoQBy0

(The part in Sardinian is that with subtitles).


In Sardinia we don't speak a single language, that one is Campidanese, spoken in the southern part of the island.

You could have chosen a video about Logudorese Sardinian, that's the most ancient and more conservative version. :)

A video of Logudorese-Barbaric Sardinian, spoken in the central Sardinia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xY7aKpippA


In any case I don't see any similarity with Portuguese.

[Foxy]

In Sardinia we don't speak a single language, that one is Campidanese, spoken in the southern part of the island.

You could have chosen a video about Logudorese Sardinian, that's the most ancient and more conservative version. :)

A video of Logudorese-Barbaric Sardinian, spoken in the central Sardinia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xY7aKpippA


In any case I don't see any similarity with Portuguese.

The thing that sounds Portuguese to me (but I ear it more in the Campidanese) is a sort of nosal way to pronunce vowels and a sound sh/j that I ear here and there. But this second language, Logudorese, sounds almost Latin to me.

[Comte Arnau]

Is this in Logudorese or Campidanese?


_OrMsjgSrfk

[Meerkat.86]

Is this in Logudorese or Campidanese?


_OrMsjgSrfk

That's logudorese.

It's not difficult to distinguish it by Campidanese, because arcticles, accent, pronunciation and many words are different.
In logudorese the plural articles are Sos and Sas (like Los and Las in Spanish), in Campidanese articles are IS, it's full of X pronounced like you use in Catalan and many plural words end with I, while in Logudorese they end with S.

But you can't find easily songs in Campidanese, because singers and poets prefer Logudorese, that's considered not only the northern Sardinian language but also the language of the artists.


These are other two examples of Sardinian-Logudorese songs:

gZFExK8y7j4

8isBHykqPU4

[Comte Arnau]

Oh, so Logudorese uses sos/sas. Good way to distinguish them then. Thanks. :thumb001:

In some dialects of Catalan, specially in Mallorca, an s is also used for the articles: es (s'), sa, sos, ses. As far as I remember, only Sardinian and Catalan have articles derived from IPSU, IPSA.

[Damião de Góis]

Portuguese when spoken correctly :p

JlUIo5daUlE

[Peyrol]

Subtitled sardinian (from Sassari)...maybe if is written you can understand better.

Wcgt-0zLTlI

[Peyrol]

Former italian anthem (1861-1871), and before anthem of Piemont-Sardegna kingdom (1842-1861) sung in sardinian (sardinian and italia subtitles)

DNfRtGxgUNo

[Meerkat.86]

Subtitled sardinian (from Sassari)...maybe if is written you can understand better.

Wcgt-0zLTlI

That's not Sassarese. In Sassari we speak a dialect connected with Corsican.


LANGUAGE FAMILY
-Indo-European
--Italic
---Romance
----Italo-Dalmatian
-----Tuscan
-------Corsican
----------Sassarese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassarese_language





d9cgh_fyvHQ

KiytR9JZZ0w

[askra]

That's not Sassarese. In Sassari we speak a dialect connected with Corsican.


Sassarese was used in the past as a lingua franca, it is a transition between corsican and sardinian logudorese, and it is deeply influenced by pisan, ligurian and catalan.

[Meerkat.86]

Sassarese was used in the past as a lingua franca, it is a transition between corsican and sardinian logudorese, and it is deeply influenced by pisan, ligurian and catalan.

It derives from Corsican-Oltramontano, so it has been influenced necessarily by Pisan and Ligurian, though it's rich of Sardinian Logudorese and Catalan elements, particularly in the vocabulary.

[Meerkat.86]

Oh, so Logudorese uses sos/sas. Good way to distinguish them then. Thanks. :thumb001:

In some dialects of Catalan, specially in Mallorca, an s is also used for the articles: es (s'), sa, sos, ses. As far as I remember, only Sardinian and Catalan have articles derived from IPSU, IPSA.

that's interesting, I didn't know. In Logudorese Sardinian articles are su, sa, sos and sas.



Anyway I've finally found a song in Campidanese :)

Wikipedia says that's the most catalanized version of Sardinian. What do you think about?

u0wOpclcJ7Y

[askra]

Anyway I've finally found a song in Campidanese :)


other songs in Campidanese (southern sardinian)

3CiSfd4Fp_Q

37c6TVI0lG8

[Meerkat.86]

Corsican as Sardinian can be generically subdivided in two main groups, Cismontano (Cismontanous in English?) spoken in the north of the island and influenced mainly by Tuscanian, and Oltramontano, spoken in the south, and considered the most ancient and conservative Corsican language.
Dialects related to Corsican are Capraiese (from Capraia a Tuscanian island, but nowadays it can be considered an exstinted dialect), Gallurese and Sassarese (spoken in the north of Sardinia by about 220 thousand people).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Dialetti_corsi.gif/543px-Dialetti_corsi.gif




I' m not very keen on telling apart Cismontano and Oltramontano, anyway this is should be a correct distinction:

Cismontano

cX-6BMHNmFY

NRmGPr47bgIwith subtitles



Oltramontano (to be more precise this is Oltramontano spoken in the area of Propriano, in south-western Corsica)


6KNgWyHzchkwith subtitles





Sardinian Gallurese

Yzt84AJ5jS4with subtitles







Sardinian Sassarese (or Turritano)

KiytR9JZZ0wwith subtitles

[Comte Arnau]

Wikipedia says that's the most catalanized version of Sardinian. What do you think about?

u0wOpclcJ7Y

Frankly? I don't think any Catalan would understand this, but for some words here and there. :p

The only words I can more or less recognize are paraulas and malladia (in Catalan, paraules and malaltia). But I'd say they're quite similar in Italian too. I didn't recognize any word that could be regarded as a Catalanism.

[Tel Errant]

Songs generally aren't that great to show how languages sound, but at the biginning of that one you can have a good idea of how Corsican sounds like when spoken.

AUNeSdxaAqU


It's supposed to be the closest dialect to Tuscan and yet it's probably the most peculiar and far from regular Italian intonation/accent you'll be able to find.

[Tel Errant]

Malaterra, a film in Provençal:
OdroBng6Vvc

Notice the R that aren't rolled in the south-east in comparison with the south-west (and some oil dialects too for that matter).
I guess that for other romance speakers Provençal must sound quite French influenced.


Vaqui, a program in Provençal aired on France3 every saturday, the presentater is nice but it doesn't help the low audience... :
XHsafLP7eRU

[Peyrol]

Malaterra, a film in Provençal:
OdroBng6Vvc

Notice the R that aren't rolled in the south-east in comparison with the south-west (and some oil dialects too for that matter).
I guess that for other romance speakers Provençal must sound quite French influenced.


Vaqui, a program in Provençal aired on France3 every saturday, the presentater is nice but it doesn't help the low audience... :
XHsafLP7eRU


Actually, what occitane dialect is the first video? Sounds more "arpitanized" than regular piedmonteis occitane ("Valadoise") or mentonasc, monegasque or nissàrd..

[Tel Errant]

Actually, what occitane dialect is the first video? Sounds more "arpitanized" than regular piedmonteis occitane ("Valadoise") or mentonasc, monegasque or nissàrd..

That's Provençal in ca/ga, Southern Occitan. Actually Piemonteis Occitane is a Vivaro-Alpine dialect of Northern Occitan and therefore closer to Arpitan than the Provençal of the video is. Your impression is due to the fact that Provence, as a French region, has had its prononciation affected by French, just like Catalan had it by Spanish in Spain and Piemontese Occitan by Piemontese and Italian in Piemont. Centuries of bi/trilinguism have worked at uniformising the prononciations and accents in our countries so that the different dialects of the occitano-romance familly, even if very close on paper when you read them, have ended sounding more like the dominant language of the country they're part of than what the medieval koiné they come from would have evolved into had it become the language of an independant country.
It shows how important accents and prononciations are and how they affect our perceptions of languages.

[Comte Arnau]

Exactly. The genuine intonation of a language can get lost when in contact with a major one, even if the language is preserved. I've told that to people who keep telling me that Catalan is not endangered at all. It is true that Catalan is special among all minorized languages in that it is not minoritarian and is probably the only one that keeps clearly increasing its number of non-native speakers, but if genuine intonation and, to some extent, syntax, keep getting gradually lost, it'd be a distorted one and so it is partially endangered too. Whether some like it or not, languages need a full country to develop fully.

That film of Malaterra, yes, I found it quite French-sounding, even when some of the sentences are almost identical to Catalan, like T'agrada aquell home? When I hear "French" Catalans, they also tend to have a very French intonation, as well as the ü and French R sound.

Here in Catalonia you notice a serious difference these days between the accent of second speakers and the accent of native ones, but even between the latter, a difference between those from inland rural villages and those from urban towns.

This is from the film Black bread. Does it sound Spanish-influenced to you? If so, how much?


ivBLla4pw8Q

[Tel Errant]

^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the "th sound" like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where (Spain) I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).
On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the closeness to the French prononciation that makes it very clear to the ears), Malaterra was quite easy to understand for me.


if genuine intonation and, to some extent, syntax, keep getting gradually lost, it'd be a distorted one and so it is partially endangered too. Whether some like it or not, languages need a full country to develop fully.
I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? :D), but also because it's much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.
I understand that in Catalonia the situation is different because you're numerous and Castillan isn't 'part of the familly' so to say, but still.

[Peyrol]

^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the S like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).
On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the relative closeness to French), Malaterra was very understandable for me.


I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? :D), but also because it's too much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.
I understand that in Catalonia the situation is different because you're numerous and Castillan isn't 'part of the familly' so to say, but still.

Occitane as daily spoken language survives only in Val D'Aran and in the Cuneoise valleys (Piemont).
In southern France, except for some zones of Languedoc and near Aix-En-Provence and Avignon, is nearly extinct, unfortunately.

[Peyrol]

Cuneoise (Valadas) occitane

X56RmIFgxfc

htJpFS6133w

[Tel Errant]

Occitane as daily spoken language survives only in Val D'Aran and in the Cuneoise valleys (Piemont).
In southern France, except for some zones of Languedoc and near Aix-En-Provence and Avignon, is nearly extinct, unfortunately.

Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.
As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread. And the same goes for Lou dalfin around your part of the Alps.

Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style), and the autochtonous people who could identify with them have been replaced too. I'm not Provençal, you're not Piemontese (if i'm not mistaken), enough said.
It's like mythologies and religions, I find them fascinating, Christian exegese is very interesting, but like most of the French I stopped believing in God when I was 13.

[Peyrol]

Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.
As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread. And the same goes for Lou dalfin around your part of the Alps.

Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style), and the autochtonous people who could identify with them have been replaced too. I'm not Provençal, you're not Piemontese (if i'm not mistaken), enough said.
It's like mythologies and religions, I find them fascinating, Christian exegese is very interesting, but like most of the French I stopped believing in God when I was 13.

Not at all: my ancestors were from Valle Seriana (Eastern Lombardy), Venice (Veneto), Velletri (Near Rome) and Saorge (Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur) :D

Anyway you're right, 100% right. I only pointed the fact that in Cuneo valleys, valadas occitane is still alive.

For Provence, after the fact that there was a heavy francizations, there is also to assume that the heavy maghrebi immigration have diluited the last pure occitane expressions :(

[Comte Arnau]

^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the "th sound" like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where (Spain) I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).

Aha, I get what you mean. Yet an observation: things not sounding French does not mean they are necessarily Iberian. Rolling r's and final -c / -t are the way they must be (and should be in non-Frenchified Occitan too). Even Old French had them.

You're right, no th sound, but that's because the th sound, as well as the jota sound, are almost exclusive to Spanish, alien to the rest of Romance languages.


On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the closeness to the French prononciation that makes it very clear to the ears), Malaterra was quite easy to understand for me.

Only because of intonation?

This is Northern Catalan ("French" Catalan). It is almost identical to Standard Catalan, I understand 100% of it, only that the intonation sounds French to me. Similar to the French people living in Catalonia when they speak Catalan. Do you understand anything, or notice it closer at all because of the French intonation?


IlIPdm55XGo


I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? :D), but also because it's much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.

Here we disagree then. I find it actually quite sad that France doesn't care about the preservation of the first Romance language to write love poetry, if we forget about Mozarabic. And I find it a big deal that different subfamilies are replaced, in one sense or another. I wouldn't like it either if it had been the other way round and it was French which was endangered. I'm for the preservation of European diversity.


Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.

I'd say the social situation of Occitan is quite analogous to that of Aragonese, with the exception that, at least, Occitan has had some excellent literature throughout the centuries, while Aragonese literature is very little known.


As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread.

I guess Aran Gascon sounds very "Iberian" to the French, but well, isn't Gascon, alongside with Catalan, supposed to be the most Iberian of all Occitanic languages? :p


Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style),

At least there's an independent part of ethnic Catalonia in Andorra, so even if to a minimal extent, Catalan is a state language, unlike Padanian (which could have been official in Monaco or San Marino).

Although one of these days they're going to substitute Catalan for Portuguese as the official national language. :D

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

At least there's an independent part of ethnic Catalonia in Andorra, so even if to a minimal extent, Catalan is a state language, unlike Padanian (which could have been official in Monaco or San Marino).

Yes, but it would have been Ligurian in Monaco and Romagnol in San Marino - two extremely different dialects, muh further apart than - I think - any two dialects of Catalan, or even of Occitanian. Another proof that Padanian is not a language (it could have become one if things went another way in the Middle Ages) but a (sub)family.

[Comte Arnau]

Yes, but it would have been Ligurian in Monaco and Romagnol in San Marino - two extremely different dialects, muh further apart than - I think - any two dialects of Catalan, or even of Occitanian.

Catalan is one of the Romance languages with less dialectalization, despite its vast territory, probably because of an early educated reference for all dialects in the documentation of the medieval Royal Chancellery. Only Algherese could be considered a clearly distinct dialect, for obvious reasons.

I'd compare the situation of Padanian more with Occitan or Arpitan, for which some linguists claim independence in each dialect while many others recognize them as one single language with a lot of dialectalization due to the lack of a solid historic standard. But even the French government recognizes Occitan as one single language.


Another proof that Padanian is not a language (it could have become one if things went another way in the Middle Ages) but a (sub)family.

I agree that the present state of things offers little chance for a reunification, specially with the so called Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Romansh, Ladin and Friulian) or even with Venetian, but saying that Padanian is not a language may be a bit far-fetched, as many linguists have already justified it.

(PDF) Ma esiste una lingua padana? (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Torino/Torino03.pdf)

The Linguistic Unity of the Northern Italy and Rhaetia (http://www.squidoo.com/linguistic-unity)

(PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (I) (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua07/03.pdf)
(PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (II) (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua08/07.pdf)


I can't judge because I don't have enough knowledge about it, although what I've read so far about it makes a lot of sense. Besides, I've seen in the past people attacking the codification processes of languages like Occitan or Aragonese out of mere political reasons, so I'm always suspicious about those critics. One has to bear in mind that minorized languages which haven't had standard references have been more prone to heavy dialectalization, but that doesn't mean that it's too late for a common written standard, as Asturian, Aragonese or Sardinian have shown.

[Mesrine]

Rhaeto-Romance needs more rep !

Ladin from South Tyrol

tuXOSL7fmjA

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Rhaeto-Romance needs more rep !

Ladin from South Tyrol

tuXOSL7fmjA

I have a hard time understanding it. It sounds very German accented, similar to Rumantsch.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

I'd compare the situation of Padanian more with Occitan or Arpitan, for which some linguists claim independence in each dialect while many others recognize them as one single language with a lot of dialectalization due to the lack of a solid historic standard. But even the French government recognizes Occitan as one single language.

I agree that the present state of things offers little chance for a reunification, specially with the so called Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Romansh, Ladin and Friulian) or even with Venetian, but saying that Padanian is not a language may be a bit far-fetched, as many linguists have already justified it.

(PDF) Ma esiste una lingua padana? (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Torino/Torino03.pdf)

The Linguistic Unity of the Northern Italy and Rhaetia (http://www.squidoo.com/linguistic-unity)

(PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (I) (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua07/03.pdf)
(PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (II) (http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua08/07.pdf)


For what I've seen of Occitan dialects, they seem to me, while more differentiated than the remarkably uniform Catalan, still closer to each other than Padanian ones.
I do concede that the geographically more central variants (like Piedmontese, Lombard, Western Emilian, and more or less everything that's spoken along the banks of the Po) are more similar and could, in principle (not in practice, nowadays) be reunified. But if we take the geographically more extreme variants - Ligurian and Venetian especially, but also Romagnol - they are too eccentric to be traced back to some 'Common Padanian'.
That's to say nothing of Rhaeto-Romance!

I like those linguists and their work, but while it's indisputable that Padanian is a diasystem of Romance languages with unifying features that separate it from Italo-Romance, considering it a single language is a bit too optimistic.



I can't judge because I don't have enough knowledge about it, although what I've read so far about it makes a lot of sense. Besides, I've seen in the past people attacking the codification processes of languages like Occitan or Aragonese out of mere political reasons, so I'm always suspicious about those critics. One has to bear in mind that minorized languages which haven't had standard references have been more prone to heavy dialectalization, but that doesn't mean that it's too late for a common written standard, as Asturian, Aragonese or Sardinian have shown.

To be clear, I would be very happy if this were possible - I'm not strictly speaking a Padanian nationalist or separatist, but I do believe that Northern Italy is a distinct entity from the Center-South, and language is one of the proofs of it.
But I think that too many dialects are structurally so deviant from the proposed written standard that, if it were adopted, their relationship to it would be reminiscent of that of Chinese 'dialects' to Standard Chinese - same written form, mutually uncomprehensible dialects that are actually quite distinct languages.

[Tel Errant]

Aha, I get what you mean. Yet an observation: things not sounding French does not mean they are necessarily Iberian.
I was referring to the melody of the language that's very 'spanish' to me, just like Piemontese or Toscan or Sicilian sound invariably Italian. That's the flow, the tone, the rythm, the intonation... each one of the three zone has its own musicality, but that's basically what we were talking about above with the uniformisation of prononciations/intonations/accents.



Only because of intonation?

You may think that I'm exaggerating but like I said in that one year old post of mine (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=443555#post443555), despite its closeness to French spoken Catalan is less understandable to me than spoken Italian which belongs to another branch of the romance languages. It must be those final consonants that ruin it for me.
Provençal on the contrary doesn't lose in understandability when passing from the written to the spoken form, which made Malaterra easy to understand.

And well, there are peoples in Québec who speak with such a strong accent that you need subtitles to understand what they say, yet they speak French. There surely are similar examples in the Spanish speaking world. Intonations and accents do play a huge role in comprehension.



This is Northern Catalan ("French" Catalan). It is almost identical to Standard Catalan, I understand 100% of it, only that the intonation sounds French to me. Similar to the French people living in Catalonia when they speak Catalan. Do you understand anything, or notice it closer at all because of the French intonation?


IlIPdm55XGo
It's indeed much easier to understand than the pa negre video. They also speak slower, it helps.



Here we disagree then. I find it actually quite sad that France doesn't care about the preservation of the first Romance language to write love poetry, if we forget about Mozarabic. And I find it a big deal that different subfamilies are replaced, in one sense or another. I wouldn't like it either if it had been the other way round and it was French which was endangered. I'm for the preservation of European diversity.

That's the modern world, those languages just died of their uselessness, c'est la vie, c'est comme ça. As long as there was relatively autonomous counties and duchies they had some legitimity and utility but that time is over now. Sustain them today and you'll feed the separatists, you'll have to give each region special competances in fiscality, education, health, etc, some fanatics will start bombing. I don't want that for my country, Spain is the countermodel in that regard. I'm a centralist, one country, one language, you can learn and speak how many dialects you want, but don't ask for special rights.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

I was referring to the melody of the language that's very 'spanish' to me, just like Piemontese or Toscan or Sicilian sound invariably Italian.

I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears? I ask this because, in addition to being structurally close to French as all Gallo-Italic dialects are due to shared isoglosses, it has a lot of French loans and direct influences in lexicon, idioms, etc., that set apart even from the rest of Gallo-Italic.

[Tel Errant]

I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears? I ask this because, in addition to being structurally close to French as all Gallo-Italic dialects are due to shared isoglosses, it has a lot of French loans and direct influences in lexicon, idioms, etc., that set apart even from the rest of Gallo-Italic.

It's not as foreign as Sicilian, but it still sounds clearly Italian to me. It can have many loans it doesn't make a big difference, English too has a huge lot of French loans and yet it's often very difficult to recognise them.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

It's not as foreign as Sicilian, but it still sounds clearly Italian to me. It can have many loans it doesn't make a big difference, English too has a huge lot of French loans and yet it's often very difficult to recognise them.

Right, but English is from a different language family and for all its peculiarities it still has (as I argued elsewhere) typically Germanic phonology & phonotactics, so no wonder that French loans were phonetically altered, while the phonology of Piedmontese, at least on paper, is maybe more similar to that of French.

Thanks for your answer anyway, it confirms to me that intonation is probably the single biggest component in accents. :thumb001:

[Mesrine]

I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears?

Absolutely not, it sounds definitely "Italian". Even Valdôtains sound Italian when they speak French, just like any Italian who learned French.

48KntLeYj18

[Sikeliot]

How do you guys perceive Corsican?

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

How do you guys perceive Corsican?

It's a central dialect, but it sounds like a strange mix between Sardinian and Southern Italian. Somehow it doesn't sound fully native-like from an Italian perspective, but I don't hear a direct French influence.

[Peyrol]

Piemonteis and sicilian haven't absolutely nothing in common, except the common latin derivation.

It's a totally foreigner language to my ears.

[Mesrine]

It's a central dialect, but it sounds like a strange mix between Sardinian and Southern Italian. Somehow it doesn't sound fully native-like from an Italian perspective, but I don't hear a direct French influence.

Agreed. Corsican sounds alien to French ears, but it doesn't really sound Italian either.

VRbJjJ1YE0g

[Tel Errant]

Right, but English is from a different language family and for all its peculiarities it still has (as I argued elsewhere) typically Germanic phonology & phonotactics, so no wonder that French loans were phonetically altered, while the phonology of Piedmontese, at least on paper, is maybe more similar to that of French.
Of course. I forgot about the phonotactics.
English was to examplify that some loans do not change the perception much, Piemontese might be more similar to French there's still a long way from meussieu to monsu.
And that about being from a same linguistic family making the phonology similar is maybe true in theory but in practice like I said some French Canadians can have such a strong accent you cannot understand what they say.



Thanks for your answer anyway, it confirms to me that intonation is probably the single biggest component in accents. :thumbs up
You're welcome.

[Tel Errant]

Piemonteis and sicilian haven't absolutely nothing in common, except the common latin derivation.

It's a totally foreigner language to my ears.

That's because as an Italian you're more used to the differences between the different dialects. In France the Provençal accent is one of the most marked and mocked and yet you found it 'arpitanised'.

[Ouistreham]

I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears? I ask this because, in addition to being structurally close to French as all Gallo-Italic dialects are due to shared isoglosses, it has a lot of French loans and direct influences in lexicon, idioms, etc., that set apart even from the rest of Gallo-Italic.

Piedmontese sounds absolutely foreign, and just as Italian as Venetian or Sicilian.

But if the question was "Of all Italian dialects, which one sounds most compatible with Provençal?", the answer would be "Piedmontese".

[Peyrol]

Piedmontese sounds absolutely foreign, and just as Italian as Venetian or Sicilian.

But if the question was "Of all Italian dialects, which one sounds most compatible with Provençal?", the answer would be "Piedmontese".

Proto-piedmonteis (X- XI centuries) was a kind of occitarpitan language.

After, become more "lombardized" due to Savoie expansion in western padanian plane.

[Libertas]

Agreed. Corsican sounds alien to French ears, but it doesn't really sound Italian either.

VRbJjJ1YE0g

It does sound Italian to a certain extent especially in its vocabulary.

[Comte Arnau]

I was referring to the melody of the language that's very 'spanish' to me, just like Piemontese or Toscan or Sicilian sound invariably Italian. That's the flow, the tone, the rythm, the intonation... each one of the three zone has its own musicality, but that's basically what we were talking about above with the uniformisation of prononciations/intonations/accents.

I'm starting to think that what really happens here is that people only have in mind the intonation of the major languages, so they find languages they don't know or haven't heard much closer to another just because they're far from their own. And it doesn' necessarily have to do with being a language from a sovereing state, as many probably don't know how Romanian intonation sounds like either. So you hear things like, they sound Russian and the like.


You may think that I'm exaggerating but like I said in that one year old post of mine (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=443555#post443555), despite its closeness to French spoken Catalan is less understandable to me than spoken Italian which belongs to another branch of the romance languages.

That is because Italian is the clearest of all Romance languages, so it's the most understandable for all of us. The Oilitan-Arpitan, Occitan-Catalan and Rhaeto-Padanian groups are obscure because they reduce their vowels a lot. Portuguese does it too.


And well, there are peoples in Québec who speak with such a strong accent that you need subtitles to understand what they say, yet they speak French. There surely are similar examples in the Spanish speaking world. Intonations and accents do play a huge role in comprehension.

I agree. Although never as much as to hinder intercomprehension.



It's indeed much easier to understand than the pa negre video. They also speak slower, it helps.

Interesting. Yes, I think it's more because of the pace and the more formal context rather than because of the intonation. The other video was from a film and many swear words and idioms were being said, so that makes things difficult.


That's the modern world, those languages just died of their uselessness, c'est la vie, c'est comme ça. As long as there was relatively autonomous counties and duchies they had some legitimity and utility but that time is over now. Sustain them today and you'll feed the separatists, you'll have to give each region special competances in fiscality, education, health, etc, some fanatics will start bombing. I don't want that for my country, Spain is the countermodel in that regard. I'm a centralist, one country, one language, you can learn and speak how many dialects you want, but don't ask for special rights.

Nobody is perfect.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

Agreed. Corsican sounds alien to French ears, but it doesn't really sound Italian either.

VRbJjJ1YE0g

Thanks a lot for this video, it's the first time I get a chance to hear spoken Corsican - all too often all you can find are songs.

In fact it's more comprehensible than I thought. The intonation - very impressionistically described - is a mix of Sardinian, Tuscan, and Siculo-Calabrian (I suppose the latter is a chance resemblance...).

[Tel Errant]

Thanks a lot for this video, it's the first time I get a chance to hear spoken Corsican - all too often all you can find are songs.

In fact it's more comprehensible than I thought. The intonation - very impressionistically described - is a mix of Sardinian, Tuscan, and Siculo-Calabrian (I suppose the latter is a chance resemblance...).

It's relatively easy to find spoken Corsican on YT, nationalists like YT and Dailymotion. Unfortunatelly and ironically most of them sound like that:
yPpzuLQ0BRs

And when they make a bit of an effort you obtain this:
-YSyZ9C2zSQ

But it's still not the real thing. Then you have peoples like the one posted by Mesrine but you can still hear some French influence.

But the guy who enter slaming the door here has it perfectly:
fev5_KtD3Ec



Same video in Languedocian:
YS1ts_FC4FQ

and in Picard:
cvp5mgsk93k

[Comte Arnau]

Same video in Languedocian:
YS1ts_FC4FQ


Phew. Languedocian may be the closest language to Catalan, but it'd be real hard to catch it all without the subs. :D

[Meerkat.86]

Agreed. Corsican sounds alien to French ears, but it doesn't really sound Italian either.

VRbJjJ1YE0g

It sounds like Genoese dialect.

Xph9Xz7hg9A

[Tel Errant]

When you recite a text or a poem you automatically adapt your intonations and whichever the language you speak the rythm is similar, some ressemblances can be just that.

[Sikelos]

Sicilian language
itrezJWzTA0
It's a weekly newscast. Journalists speak literary sicilian.

[Comte Arnau]

Great version of a lullaby in Asturian: Agora non, mío neñu (Not now, my child).


-YzhwfiPt4c

[aimar]

TGIVhHJ6e8U

[MM81]

Write sentences in your romance language - it can be your national language either your dialect, it doesn't matter - and let the other latin users from other countries/areas try to translate them :) Let's see how many words and sentences we can mutually understand...

Italian brief poetry by Giuseppe Ungaretti

Soldati
Si sta come
d'autunno
sugli alberi
le foglie

[Jerreiche]

Recuerde el alma dormida,
avive el seso y despierte
contemplando
cómo se pasa la vida,
cómo se viene la muerte
tan callando,
cuán presto se va el placer,
cómo, después de acordado,
da dolor;
cómo, a nuestro parecer,
cualquiera tiempo pasado
fue mejor.


I share a surname with the man who wrote this

[Vesuvian Sky]

Been thinking of making these my signature since it refers to one of my most cherished Caesars. Of course it is in Latin, the mother tongue of Romance:

"Sis felicior Augusto, melior Traiano"

[MM81]

I'll try to translate it in english, just to see if I got it or not... No google translator used, of course ;)
avive el seso y despierte
Sex lives and despairs (not sure about this)
contemplando
cómo se pasa la vida,
cómo se viene la muerte
Contemplating how life goes by, how death comes
tan callando,
don't know what the verb callar means
cuán presto se va el placer,
cómo, después de acordado,
da dolor;
how soon pleasure goes, how, after (don't understand "de acordado") from pain

cómo, a nuestro parecer,
cualquiera tiempo pasado
fue mejor.

how, as it seems to us,
some time past
was better.
.......
That's my interpretation: some verbs were unintelligible, many others perfectly understandable.

[Jerreiche]

I'll try to translate it in english, just to see if I got it or not... No google translator used, of course ;)
avive el seso y despierte

flare up the brain and awake it

contemplando
cómo se pasa la vida,
cómo se viene la muerte
Contemplating how life goes by, how death comes (nice translate_


tan callando,

so silently


cuán presto se va el placer,
cómo, después de acordado,
da dolor;
how soon the pleasure goes away , how, once remembered, produces pain

cómo, a nuestro parecer,
cualquiera tiempo pasado
fue mejor.

how, as it seems to us,
any time past
was better.
.......
That's my interpretation: some verbs were unintelligible, many others perfectly understandable.


have corrected the bits and bobs and false friends. Generally a good translation

Although you know... Traduttore traditore :D

[MM81]

No, non ho usato il traduttore :D
False friends are real bastards... :D:D

[Comte Arnau]

A poem in mine:

Em plau, d’atzar, d’errar per les muralles
Del temps antic i, a l’acost de la fosca,
Sota un llorer i al peu de la font tosca,
De remembrar, cellut, setge i batalles.

De matí em plau, amb fèrries tenalles
I claus de tub, cercar la peça llosca
A l’embragat, o al coixinet que embosca
L’eix, i engegar per l’asfalt sense falles.

I enfilar colls, seguir per valls ombroses,
Vèncer, rabent, els guals. Oh món novell!
Em plau, també, l’ombra suau d’un tell,

L’antic museu, les madones borroses,
I el pintar extrem d’avui! Càndid rampell:
M’exalta el nou i m’enamora el vell.

[MM81]

^Catalan is quite understandable to me.
These are the words I don't understand:

d’atzar,
llorer
peça
L’eix,
borroses,

[Peyrol]

Merged discussions.

[Damião de Góis]

A song:

Há uma voz de sempre,
Que chama por mim.
Para que eu lembre,
Que a noite tem fim.

Ainda procuro,
Por quem não esqueci.
Em nome de um sonho,
Em nome de ti.

Procuro à noite,
Um sinal de ti.
Espero à noite,
Por quem não esqueci.

Eu peço à noite,
Um sinal de ti.
Quem eu não esqueci...

Por sinais perdidos,
Espero em vão.
Por tempos antigos,
Por uma canção.

Ainda procuro,
Por quem não esqueci.
Por quem já não volta,
Por quem eu perdi.

[carefree]

Most Romance languages are easy to learn and comprehend but Italian and French are the most beautiful of all in my opinion.

[Comte Arnau]

^Catalan is quite understandable to me.
These are the words I don't understand:

d’atzar,
llorer
peça
L’eix,
borroses,

llorer = lauro, peça = pezzo, eix = asse

atzar and borroses are Iberian words, with equivalents in Spanish and Portuguese. They mean chance and blurry.

Interesting, though. I rather thought that it'd be words like llosca, gual or rampell those difficult to understand.

Catalan is quite in the middle, lexically speaking, so much of it can be usually understandable to Italians, French and West Iberians.

(Looking like a variety from Italy)
La dona encara no menja sense un amic ni dorm mai sota la finestra perquè no vol escoltar com parlen tota la matinada.

(Looking like a variety from France)
Hom oblida sovint la joia d'altres temps, car no la trova gaire darrerament.

(Looking like a variety from West Iberia)
Calla, deixa de buscar i apaga la foguera; si no, es cansaran de tu i et mataran.

[Damião de Góis]

(Looking like a variety from West Iberia)
Calla, deixa de buscar i apaga la foguera; si no, es cansaran de tu i et mataran.

Asturian?

[Comte Arnau]

Asturian?

The three sentences are in Catalan. :p

[Damião de Góis]

The three sentences are in Catalan. :p

I misread your post then. I thought "deixar" could only be portuguese or galician, but since i didn't recognize the language i thought it would be one of the more unkown ones.

[Comte Arnau]

I misread your post then. I thought "deixar" could only be portuguese or galician, but since i didn't recognize the language i thought it would be one of the more unkown ones.

I've noted you misread it or I explained it badly. I was just trying to show the central position of Catalan by choosing lexicon which could be understood by someone from that area.

For instance, the third sentence could easily be understood by both Portuguese and Spaniards. But callar, deixar, buscar, apagar, cansar and matar are not verbs that the French or Italians would recognize.

In fact, medieval/literary Catalan has forms for those verbs which are more similar to the French/Italian ones.

[Peyrol]

Spoken piemontàis (langhèe dialect)

SnATEixs3vc

[Sikeliot]

Spoken piemontàis (langhèe dialect)

SnATEixs3vc

This reminds me of French, I think.

[Peyrol]

This reminds me of French, I think.

Yep, some word are derived directly from french (and not from occitan), but very few...the ''brothers'' of piemonteis are, btw, all the gallo-romance languages: from the northern italian languages passing through occitan, french and catalan.
Btw, the dialect of the Langhe (south/east of Torino) is the most archaic, internally the piemontàis language.

[Comte Arnau]

So many different names for the butterfly in the Romance languages, but most of them sound kinda nice.


Portuguese-Galician: borboleta/bolboreta
Mirandese: paixarina
Asturian: pumarina
Spanish: mariposa

Aragonese: paxarela

Catalan: papallona
Aran Gascon: parpalhòla
Occitan: parpalhon
French: papillon
Picard: paviole
Arpitan: parpelyon
Piemontese: parpajon (Perd?)
Romansh: tgiralla
Friulian: pavee

Italian: farfalla
Neapolitan: palommella

Romanian: fluture

Sardinian: barabatula

[Jackson]

Sounds strange, but interesting. Most are spoken very quickly and the speech is quite broken/disrupted rather than smooth flowing. Some are quite nice to listen to but they are very alerting. The Swiss one was funny, seemed slightly germanised compared to the others, and spoken a bit more slowly.

Interesting! Thanks for the videos.

[Peyrol]

Ligurian (also the images are very good)


KoVxtw5V3GQ

[MM81]

A poetry in ligurian, dedicated by an old woman to her dead brother. Can the extra italian users understand the text meaning? Just curious :)
BQ_GVhC-9Hc

[Roy]

I do love sung French but I am not fond of spoken French. Sometimes can't stand it because natives have tendencies to speak carelessly and babble unintelligible ... but fore example i don't have this problem with italian which sounds clearly.

[Comte Arnau]

Nice sample with the words of a tale in the Lombard language: a version of the Grimm brothers' The Frog Prince.

6H2AuibxUMM

[Comte Arnau]

Mater Latin and the 30 Romance Wikipedias. :)

http://oi47.tinypic.com/seoi6q.jpg

[Peyrol]

Old Man speaking in a very-heavy tuscan

yQO-EqUKQ-Y

...a lot of archaisms:

''....sapello...

....sarà sortito da circhi

...già abbrucciava

....sento sfrascà da quel siepone e sorte questa beschia

...arrivò a mezza piaggia!!! ''

[Comte Arnau]

Vowels in the Romance languages:




Standard French: 17 (13 oral + 4 nasal)
Standard (European) Portuguese: 14 (9 oral + 5 nasal)
Friulian: 14 (7 short + 7 long equivalents)
Standard Romansh: 9
Piedmontese: 9
Standard Catalan: 8
Lombard: 8
Neapolitan: 8
Standard Italian: 7
Standard Galician: 7
Standard Occitan: 7
Standard Romanian: 7
Venetian: 7
Standard Spanish: 5
Standard Sardinian: 5
Sicilian: 5

[Damião de Góis]

I thought we had 5 vowels?

[Comte Arnau]

I thought we had 5 vowels?

You write 5 vowels.

But after the French, yours is the Romance language with more vowels. Fourteen!

[Peyrol]

If people are interested in the purest of the gallo-italic languages...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81154-Speaking-lombard

[Ouistreham]

Standard French: 17 (13 oral + 4 nasal)



Uh, really?
I know only 16.
And since the nasal "un"-sound is virtually extinct (no more difference between nasal "un" and "in"), I use only 15 of them.

[Comte Arnau]

Uh, really?
I know only 16.
And since the nasal "un"-sound is virtually extinct (no more difference between nasal "un" and "in"), I use only 15 of them.

I see I counted in long open e and the old 'un' as different vowels. So yes, I guess they'd be 15 in practice. If it's true that the trend is not to distinguish a from â either, then maybe spoken French and Portuguese have got the same number? You'll know better, my French isn't native.

[archangel]

sounds melodic

[Peyrol]

Pure ligurian...100% archaic genovese...i understand less than 40% of the song...

(beautiful video, good images from Eastern Liguria.(Portofino, 5 Terre, Sestri Levante, etc..)...the greatest place on Earth)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoVxtw5V3GQ

Lyrics in ligurian:



Umbre de muri muri de mainé

dunde ne vegnì duve l'è ch'ané

da 'n scitu duve a l'ûn-a a se mustra nûa

e a neutte a n'à puntou u cutellu ä gua

e a muntä l'àse gh'é restou Diu

u Diàu l'é in çë e u s'è gh'è faetu u nìu

ne sciurtìmmu da u mä pe sciugà e osse da u Dria

e a funtan-a di cumbi 'nta cä de pria

E 'nt'a cä de pria chi ghe saià

int'à cä du Dria che u nu l'è mainà

gente de Lûgan facce da mandillä

qui che du luassu preferiscian l'ä

figge de famiggia udù de bun

che ti peu ammiàle senza u gundun

E a 'ste panse veue cose che daià

cose da beive, cose da mangiä

frittûa de pigneu giancu de Purtufin

çervelle de bae 'nt'u meximu vin

lasagne da fiddià ai quattru tucchi

paciûgu in aegruduse de lévre de cuppi

E 'nt'a barca du vin ghe naveghiemu 'nsc'i scheuggi

emigranti du rìe cu'i cioi 'nt'i euggi

finché u matin crescià da puéilu rechéugge

frè di ganeuffeni e dè figge

bacan d'a corda marsa d'aegua e de sä

che a ne liga e a ne porta 'nte 'na creuza de mä

[Ouistreham]

I see I counted in long open e and the old 'un' as different vowels. So yes, I guess they'd be 15 in practice. If it's true that the trend is not to distinguish a from â either, then maybe spoken French and Portuguese have got the same number? You'll know better, my French isn't native.

— The long open 'e' (which is supposed to distinguish faire from fer or mère from mer) is very unstable, few people consciously pronounce it (except in Belgium).

— Yes, there is a trend to merge the long closed 'â' with the open 'a'. I do not, but I think 80% of French speakers pronounce pâtes (sauce bolognaise) just like pattes (de chien).

I'm not happy with such evolutions, but I think these are subtleties non-native speakers don't need to bother with.

[Ouistreham]

So many different names for the butterfly in the Romance languages, but most of them sound kinda nice.


Portuguese-Galician: borboleta/bolboreta
Mirandese: paixarina
Asturian: pumarina
Spanish: mariposa

Aragonese: paxarela

Catalan: papallona
Aran Gascon: parpalhòla
Occitan: parpalhon
French: papillon
Picard: paviole
Arpitan: parpelyon
Piemontese: parpajon (Perd?)
Romansh: tgiralla
Friulian: pavee

Italian: farfalla
Neapolitan: palommella

Romanian: fluture

Sardinian: barabatula

You should have added, next to Picard paviole :
Walloon: pavion
Lorrain: pawion
Norman: pivolette (but Swiss French pivole means "ladybird")

And next to Friulian pavee :
Venetian: pavegio

Note that the the p-v theme appears in Northern France as well as in Northeastern Italy, just like the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.

Hey, Piedmontese is closer to Occitan than Catalan is:

Catalan: papallona
Occitan: parpalhon
Piemontese: parpajon

There is the same mindboggling variety in the Germanic group, with similar unexpected parentages:

English: butterfly
Standard German: Schmetterling, but many regional variants prefer Falter
Low German: bottervagel (= "butterbird", somewhat similar to English)
Bavarian: derivates of Falter, but also Summafogl (like in Norwegian!)
Low Saxon: vlinder, pennevoegel
Dutch: vlinder
Frisian: flinder
Limburgish: kapel
Danish, Norwegian: sommerfugl
Swedish: fjäril (certainly old Norse word)
Icelandic: fiðrild

[Peyrol]

Neapolitan ''Palommella'', even if is referred to a butterfly, literally means ''little dove'' (neapolitan for dove/pidgeno is ''Palomma'').

[Damião de Góis]

Note that the the p-v theme appears in Northern France as well as in Northeastern Italy, just like the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.


I also noticed that. But there is no connection here, this similarity is a bit of a mistery.

[Ouistreham]

Neapolitan ''Palommella'', even if is referred to a butterfly, literally means ''little dove'' (neapolitan for dove/pidgeno is ''Palomma'').
Many Germanic names also classify butterflies as "birds"!


the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.
— I also noticed that. But there is no connection here, this similarity is a bit of a mistery.

For small animals and plants that are neither essential to agriculture nor highly distinctive, similar common names often appear in non-contiguous areas.

A well-known instance is pardal, the word for "sparrow" in both Portuguese and Catalan, while Castilian and its peripheral dialects all use gorriòn or gurriòn.

[Comte Arnau]

I'm not happy with such evolutions, but I think these are subtleties non-native speakers don't need to bother with.

Well, I bother. :) I've always been interested in the accurate pronunciation of the standards in any language, something traditional books never cared about.



Hey, Piedmontese is closer to Occitan than Catalan is:


Well, basically because of that antietymological r. :D

Papallona is the word in Standard Catalan and the one I've only ever heard, but according to the Catalan/Valencian/Balearic Dictionary, these internal variants exist too: papalló, paloma, palometa, pampallola, papillota, papiola, voliaina, voliana.
Most of them apparently used in Western Catalan and in the Islands.

In Aragonese, aside from paxarela, they've got palometa too (so apparently 'little dove' is used in several places), as well as birabolas and pilazana.

[Comte Arnau]

Bumping up this nice thread with a folk Galician song.

You dragged your butt along the hay,
there on the ground a bed you lay
and you moistened your sweet little clam
since last summer it hadn't been damp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVKevNuR8A