Why South Slavs from Dinaric Alps have low percentage of R1b?

[Pribislav]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

Serbs, Croatians and Bosniaks from Dinaric Alps have very low percentage of R1b.
Serbs and Croatians from non-Dinaric areas have more R1b. Croatians from northwestern and western Croatia have more R1b than Croatians from Dalmatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina. Serbs from southern Serbia and Kosovo have more R1b than Serbs from Dinaric Alps. Bosnian Serbs have only 2-3% R1b. Bosniaks and B&H Croatians also.
Montenegro is an exception, because belong to Dinaric are and R1b in Montenegro is around 10%.

Dinaric south Slavs have more I1 than R1b.

Unlike Dinaric south Slavs, other south Slavs and Balkanites have more R1b. Slovenia 18%, Macedonia 12,5%, Bulgaria 11%, Albania 16%, Greece 15,5%.

Comparation of R1b percentage (and other haplos) between Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania
https://s31.postimg.cc/4w9ua17y3/image.png

[Pribislav]

There is a theory about huge presence of Vlachs in Dinaric Alps in the middle age. If Vlachs were present in Dinaric Alps in huge number and mixed with Dinaric south Slavs than Serbs, Croatians and Bosniaks from Dinaric Alps sholud have much more R1b, because R1b is the most dominant haplogroups among Aromanians (Balkan Vlachs), and that's not case.
Second strongest haplogroup among Aromanians is J2b2, and this haplogroup is even more rare in Dinaric Alps than R1b.

At the sample of 328 Herzegovinian Serbs have 5,49% R1b (western branches are more common than eastern) and 0,3% J2b2 (only 1 guy of 328)
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=487276&d=1523881742

[Tauromachos]

Its only one thing that shows their genetic difference to Greeks

Because even when Greeks have some R1a they have also alot more R1b than these folks

[Pribislav]

Its only one thing that shows their genetic difference to Greeks

Because even when Greeks have some R1a they have also alot more R1b than these folks

Slovenia have 18% R1b, but their R1b is mostly Germanic branch. They got R1b from Germans/Austrians, because Slovenians were 900 years under the Germans.
Many Germans stayed in Slovenia 1945 and they are assimilated into Slovenian nation.
Slovenia and Czechia are the most Gemanic influenced Slavic countries.

Which one is more commons among Greeks J2b2, J2b1 or J2a?

[Ülev]

All R1b
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8.jpg
http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

[Ülev]

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.20.jpg
http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

[Pribislav]

All R1b
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8.jpg
http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

Dinaric Alps is area with the least R1b in Europe.

[Bosniensis]

I believe R1b are Barbarian invaders. Rome lost Gaul and Italy in 5th and 7th century A.D to many barbarians.
I've always believed that Albanians as well as South Slavs are much more native to the region than French or British people are to their regions.
After all, Illyrians and Thracians were extremely Poor people, barbarians were after Gold therefore they did not settled in poor provinces.

[Veslan]

Weren't Illyrians R1b? If not, can someone name their R1 subclade?

[Livin]

Its only one thing that shows their genetic difference to Greeks

Because even when Greeks have some R1a they have also alot more R1b than these folks

R1a in Greece=Slavic.
R1b=Dorian,Illyrian,paleobalkan and maybe Celtic

[Tauromachos]

R1a in Greece=Slavic.
R1b=Dorian,Illyrian,paleobalkan and maybe Celtic

Nope

[Livin]

Nope

Then what?

[Tauromachos]

Then what?

R1b is not clear who brought it some say its Celtic as you also mentioned
anyway its significantly more in Greeks than R1a and more distributed allover Greece

[Livin]

R1b is not clear who brought it some say its Celtic as you also mentioned
anyway its significantly more in Greeks than R1a and more distributed allover Greece

Both haplogroup are low in Greece and Albania if I remembere well.
The r1b in Greece has to do with Dorian IMO and with foreign elements like Celtic invasion in balkans,illyromacedonian relations and maybe Anatolian folks who come here as soldiers or Slaves during Hellenistic years.As for r1a is definelty slavic.
Turkey also has more r1b because of ancient anatolians(Hittite,Luwian).

[Pribislav]

https://s15.postimg.cc/hd2vo9pq3/631px-_Srpska_Municipalites_svg_1.png

Y DNA of Serbs from Bosanska Krajina (blue color)
Sample 144
I2-Y3120 - 33,3% (I2-PH908 21,5%)
R1a - 19,4%
E1b - 12,5%
J2b - 9,7% (J2b-M205 7,6%)
N2-P189.2 - 8,3%
I1 - 6,9% (I1-P109 3,5%)
J1 - 4,2% (J-PF7264 2,8%)
R1b - 2,8%
J2a-M67 - 1,4%
I2-M223 - 0,7%
I2-L223 - 0,7%

[Pribislav]

Nope

Majority of R1a brances in Greece are Slavic.
Most common branch of R1a in Greece is M458, and that is a typical Slavic branch.

[Tauromachos]

Majority of R1a brances in Greece are Slavic.
Most common branch of R1a in Greece is M458, and that is a typical Slavic branch.

If they are Slavic then they didn't exist in premedieval Greeks.

[Jana]

Weren't Illyrians R1b? If not, can someone name their R1 subclade?

Yes, main Illyrian marker was R1b L23 (found in bronze age Panonnia), also J2b2 (found in bronze age Dalmatia) and probably others, most importantly E-V13.

[Pribislav]

If they are Slavic then they didn't exist in premedieval Greeks.

M458 and Z280 came to Greece with Slavic expansion.
Maybe there is some other branches of R1a in Greece which are paleo-Balkanic, I don't know.
If Greeks have Z93 it can be paleo-Balkanic, because R1a-Z93 was found in ancient nacropolises ikn Bulgaria. Those are probably proto-Thracians.

[Jana]

I believe R1b are Barbarian invaders. Rome lost Gaul and Italy in 5th and 7th century A.D to many barbarians.
I've always believed that Albanians as well as South Slavs are much more native to the region than French or British people are to their regions.
After all, Illyrians and Thracians were extremely Poor people, barbarians were after Gold therefore they did not settled in poor provinces.

No. Northern Dinaric alps experienced most population turnover, some places in dinaric alps are like 90% slavic paternally. Region also experienced many migrations, genocides and population turnovers.

Dinaric alps are also place where original Croats settled in our case, first Croatian Kingdom was founded in dinaric zone.

[Livin]

z
M458 and Z280 came to Greece with Slavic expansion.
Maybe there is some other branches of R1a in Greece which are paleo-Balkanic, I don't know.
If Greeks have Z93 it can be paleo-Balkanic, because R1a-Z93 was found in ancient nacropolises ikn Bulgaria. Those are probably proto-Thracians.

I think I1 has come with Slavs in Greece or no?

Isn’t native Balkan haplogroup?

[Bosniensis]

No. Northern Dinaric alps experienced most population turnover, some places in dinaric alps are like 90% slavic paternally. Region also experienced many migrations, genocides and population turnovers.

Dinaric alps are also place where original Croats settled in our case, first Croatian Kingdom was founded in dinaric zone.

You Slavs came as migrants, Western Balkans was populated with many people when you came. Slavs are like Turks .. inventing fantasy stories propagated by their political schools.
According to Turks and Slavs both Anatolia and Balkans were empty when they came rofl.

[Pribislav]

Dinaric alps are also place where original Croats settled in our case, first Croatian Kingdom was founded in dinaric zone.

And original Serbs also.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Serbia960AD.png

[Pribislav]

z

I think I1 has come with Slavs in Greece or no?

Isn’t native Balkan haplogroup?

I1 originated in Scandinavia and spread across Europe due to Goths, Langobards, Gepids, Franks, Saxons, Normans...

[Leto]

R1a in Greece=Slavic.
R1b=Dorian,Illyrian,paleobalkan and maybe Celtic
There's R1a even in Sicily and in particular in the areas where Greeks used to live.

[Pribislav]

There's R1a even in Sicily and in particular in the areas where Greeks used to live.

Which branch?

[Livin]

There's R1a even in Sicily and in particular in the areas where Greeks used to live.

What you mean with this?

Byzantines spread it all over the med region?

[Wrong]

R1b in Albanian Ghegs is 25-30%.

Tosks around 20%.


This map is more representative to modern frequencies not dated back to age-old studies on nations:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/64/d7/cc64d723da7404ed753df8f32cba91b6.png

[Tauromachos]

What you mean with this?

Byzantines spread it all over the med region?

The R1a in Sicily is ancient and been said to be brought there by some of the Greek settlers from the Mainland.

So it can't be one of the subclades Slavs have but must be one of the other Non Slavic ones Pribislav previously mentioned and these subclades
therefore must exist in Greeks too.

[Livin]

R1b in Albanian Ghegs is 25-30%.

Tosks around 20%.

Gheghs are the real Albanians obviously.

Tosks are crypto Greeks :D

[Leto]

Which branch?


What you mean with this?

Byzantines spread it all over the med region?
I don't know which branch but fact is that R1a is not necessarily Slavic. Even on this forum there are Albanians, half Sicilians (Sikeliot), Englishmen, Turks, etc. who have this haplogroup.

[Livin]

The R1a in Sicily is ancient and been said to be brought there by some of the Greek settlers from the Mainland.

So it can't be one of the subclades Slavs have but must be one of the other Non Slavic ones Pribislav previously mentioned and these subclades
therefore must exist in Greeks too.

Interesting.


Sikeliot has r1a I think.

[Tauromachos]

I don't which branch but fact is that R1a is not necessarily Slavic. Even on this forum there are Albanians, half Sicilians (Sikeliot), Englishmen, etc. Who have this haplogroup.

Sikeliot himself has Polish ancestry from his mother.

But you can see his thread about Italian y-dna it says there that the Sicilian R1a came with ancient Greek settlers so yes it should be Non Slavic.

[Wrong]

Ghegs varied by regions:

25-30% R1b
25-30% J2b2
30-35% EV13
5-10% rest(I1, I2a2, I2a1b-Din, R1a, G, etc)


Tosks are more diverse by haplogroups.

[Pribislav]

I don't know which branch but fact is that R1a is not necessarily Slavic. Even on this forum there are Albanians, half Sicilians (Sikeliot), Englishmen, Turks, etc. who have this haplogroup.

Albanian who are R1a have Slavic paternal ancestor, because they have Slavic branches.
Turks mostly have Slavic branches of R1a (from Janissaries), and few Turkic Z93 (from Oghuz Turks).
English R1a is Z284 which origuinated in Scandinavia and came with Angles, Saxons or Normans.

[Livin]

Ghegs varied by regions:

25-30% R1b
25-30% J2b2
30-35% EV13
5-10% rest(I1, I2a2, I2a1b-Din, R1a, G, etc)


Tosks are more diverse by haplogroups.

R1b In Gheghs is Illyrian and celtic right?

[Wrong]

Albanian who are R1a have Slavic paternal ancestors.
Turks mostly have Slavic branches of R1a (from Janissaries), and few Turkic Z93 (from Oghuz Turks).
English R1a is Z284 which origuinated in Scandinavia and came with Angles, Saxons or Normans.
The R1a Albanian here, Dibran, carries a clade that's not matched with Slavs primarily.

[Wrong]

R1b In Gheghs is Illyrian and celtic right?
Proto-Celtic, yes. Illyrian, yes.

[Jana]

You Slavs came as migrants, Western Balkans was populated with many people when you came. Slavs are like Turks .. inventing fantasy stories propagated by their political schools.
According to Turks and Slavs both Anatolia and Balkans were empty when they came rofl.

Stop fantasizing dumbass.

I nevers said Illyrians did not live in dinaric alps before Slavs, I said they were mostly destoryed by Justinian plauge and Hunnic, Gothic invasions before slavic.

Btw, you are most likely slav by paternal lineage, nice irony :lmao:

[Hulu]

I nevers said Illyrians did not live in dinaric alps before Slavs, I said they were mostly destoryed by Justinian plauge and Hunnic, Gothic invasions before slavic.



It's unlikely that Huns and Gots destroyed Illyria without settling there leaving the place empty for the slavs to settle. Also, no proof the Justinian plague was harsher in Illyria than anywhere else.

[Jana]

And original Serbs also.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Serbia960AD.png

Serbs never lived in central Dalmatia.

Wtf is BiH ? BiH did not exist back than.

Northwest Bosnia was Croatia, not BiH. Laughable how these fantasy maps will do everything to enlarge Serb territories and makes Croatian smaller.

When Kigdom of Croatia was founded, it included most of these ''original Serb lands'' anyway xD

[Wrong]

In the Balkans, R1b is the highest in Ghegs overall by 25-30%. Let's get these facts straight in the OP.

Even 50% Albanians of this forum, both Ghegs and Tosks are R1b.

[Hulu]

Serbs never lived in central Dalmatia.

Wtf is BiH ? BiH did not exist back than.

Northwest Bosnia was Croatia, not BiH. Laughable how these fantasy maps will do everything to enlarge Serb territories and makes Croatian smaller.

When Kigdom of Croatia was founded, it included most of these ''original Serb lands'' anyway xD

The modern states are in purple

[Jana]

It's unlikely that Huns and Gots destroyed Illyria without settling there leaving the place empty for the slavs to settle. Also, no proof the Justinian plague was harsher in Illyria than anywhere else.

There is. Eastern Roman Empire was most hit by plauge, and population was already decimated from Roman conquest.

Btw, these is archeological lack of continuity in entire modern-day Croatia, except in part of Istria and cities on the coast.

Goth did settle in dinaric alps, Huns did not.

[Wrong]

There is. Eastern Roman Empire was most hit by plauge, and population was already decimated from Roman conquest.

Btw, these is archeological lack of continuity in entire modern-day Croatia, except in part of Istria and cities on the coast.

Goth did settle in dinaric alps, Huns did not.
Plague didn't affect much of the highlands & isolated areas though.

[Jana]

The modern states are in purple

These ''original Serb lands'' are based on DAI account, that also states Serbs got their name from Byzantine slaves and Croatia has few hunded tousands of foot and calvary soldiers.

In other words, not a solid source for most historians.

Other accounts say contradictory information.

[Wrong]

In the Balkans, R1b is the highest in Ghegs overall by 25-30%. Let's get these facts straight in the OP.

Even 50% Albanians of this forum, both Ghegs and Tosks are R1b.
That makes 25-30% of the Ghegs pure IE paternally through the R1b-L23, ancestral to the Western types of R1b.

[Tauromachos]

There is. Eastern Roman Empire was most hit by plauge, and population was already decimated from Roman conquest.

Btw, these is archeological lack of continuity in entire modern-day Croatia, except in part of Istria and cities on the coast.

Goth did settle in dinaric alps, Huns did not.

There have been found monuments of Mycanaean Greeks at some place of the coast of Croatia from what i remember

[Hulu]

There is. Eastern Roman Empire was most hit by plauge, and population was already decimated from Roman conquest.

Btw, these is archeological lack of continuity in entire modern-day Croatia, except in part of Istria and cities on the coast.

Goth did settle in dinaric alps, Huns did not.

Roman "conquest" didn't affect the population, where did you get that from?

[Jana]

Plague didn't affect much of the highlands & isolated areas though.

Real highlands are in Montenegro, northern Albania. Dalmatia and Herzegovina don't have real highlands, it's rather hilly than mountanious area.

I think genetics show it nicely, least slavic influence in mountain Ghegs and considerable native influence in parts of Montenegrin highlands.

[Pribislav]

Serbs never lived in central Dalmatia.

Wtf is BiH ? BiH did not exist back than.

Northwest Bosnia was Croatia, not BiH. Laughable how these fantasy maps will do everything to enlarge Serb territories and makes Croatian smaller.

When Kigdom of Croatia was founded, it included most of these ''original Serb lands'' anyway xD

Look at the map better, only Serbia is shown from 960 AD in comparation with modern borders.
As you can see early Serbia was more western than modern Serbia.
Early Serbia was not in Kosovo, Vojvodina and Niš. Early Serbia was in central/eastern Bosnia, central/southern Dalmatian, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Raška and present day western Serbia.
Borders of Serbia and Croatia in the early middle age were Vrbas and Cetina rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_(medieval)

[Tauromachos]

Real highlands are in Montenegro, northern Albania. Dalmatia and Herzegovina don't have real highlands, it's rather hilly than mountanious area.

I think genetics show it nicely, least slavic influence in mountain Ghegs and considerable native influence in parts of Montenegrin highlands.

Slavs aren't realy highland people but rather people of the plateaus

[Wrong]

Real highlands are in Montenegro, northern Albania. Dalmatia and Herzegovina don't have real highlands, it's rather hilly than mountanious area.

I think genetics show it nicely, least slavic influence in mountain Ghegs and considerable native influence in parts of Montenegrin highlands.
Yeah, Ghegs preserved most of the Old Illyrian R1b in the Balkans, with 25-30%. I saw in the Albanian Bloodlines project R1b frequency of 30%.

[Jana]

Roman "conquest" didn't affect the population, where did you get that from?

Ofcourse it did. Roman conquest of Illyria was one of longest and bloodiest in Imperial history, comparable to Chartage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars

[Pribislav]

Yeah, Ghegs preserved most of the Old Illyrian R1b in the Balkans, with 25-30%. I saw in the Albanian Bloodlines project R1b frequency of 30%.

Aromanians have 23-24% R1b, and R1b is their strongest haplogroup.

[Jana]

Look at the map better, only Serbia is shown from 960 AD in comparation with modern borders.
As you can see early Serbia was more western than modern Serbia.
Early Serbia was not in Kosovo, Vojvodina and Niš. Early Serbia was in central/eastern Bosnia, central/southern Dalmatian, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Raška and present day western Serbia.
Borders of Serbia and Croatia in the early middle age were Vrbas and Cetina rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_(medieval)

No. Central Dalmatia has no connection with Serbia whatsoever.

Kingdom of Croatia on it's peak
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Kingdom_of_Croatia.png/1200px-Kingdom_of_Croatia.png

[Wrong]

Aromanians have 23-24% R1b, and R1b is their strongest haplogroup.
Aromanians carry both the Celto-Italic R1b clade and also the Old Illyrian R1b clade. This, coupled with Roman J2a is proof that Aromanians are partly Roman settlers to the Balkans mixed with Illyrian-Albanian, Slavs & Greeks. Aromuns are diverse today and haplogroups vary strongly per region they reside.

Ghegs have mostly the Old Illyrian R1b clade with some minor Celto-Italic R1b in the south.

[Pribislav]

No. Central Dalmatia has no connection with Serbia whatsoever.

Kingdom of Croatia on it's peak
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Kingdom_of_Croatia.png/1200px-Kingdom_of_Croatia.png

:picard1:

Croatia to the Drina river = Croatian propaganda.

[Hulu]

Ofcourse it did. Roman conquest of Illyria was one of longest and bloodiest in Imperial history, comparable to Chartage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars

No it wasn't. They would have latinized the population if they did, by language at least. Also Romans built the best infrastructure around those parts some of them lasting to today. Unlike ottomans for example who only exploited the population for their army.

I know this goes against your "slavs found the place empty" narrative but it's not what happened.

[Lavrentis]

Early Serbia was in central/eastern Bosnia, central/southern Dalmatian, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Raška and present day western Serbia.
Borders of Serbia and Croatia in the early middle age were Vrbas and Cetina rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_(medieval)

Early Medieval Serbs must have been genetically similar to Croats and Bosniaks, considering their geographic location. Later they expanded southwards and assimilated a lot of native Balkanites and that’s how you get modern Serbs who are genetically more similar to Bulgarians than to Croats/Bosniaks.

This is my theory at least

[Jana]

:picard1:

Croatia to the Drina river = Croatian propaganda.

No. It is fact. But interesting how Serbian fantasy maps are not propaganda. Can you tell me important Serbian towns, courts, settlements in Dalmatia ? You can't because nobody heard of them.

Border of Croatia on Drina with Bulgaria is historical reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian%E2%80%93Bulgarian_wars


Croatian-Bulgarian Wars were a series of conflicts that erupted three times during the 9th and 10th centuries between the medieval realms of Croatia and Bulgaria. During these wars, Croatia formed alliances with Eastern Francia and Byzantium against the Bulgarian Empire.

The climax of the war was the Battle of the Bosnian Highlands that same year, when Croatian forces under the command of King Tomislav completely defeated the Bulgarian forces under the command of Alogobotur, killing most of the Bulgarians in the battle. The Croatian victory was so decisive and the battle so big that contemporary sources greatly overestimated Croatia's Army at 160,000 men, with a slightly bigger force on the Bulgarian side. This was the only battle Tsar Simeon ever lost. Since both rulers maintained good relations with Pope John X, the pope was able to negotiate an end to the war soon afterward without any further border changes. Although the eastern border was extended down to the river of Bosnia, the Croatian realm was greatly strengthened both militarily and in natural resources: it emerged from the war as one of the most modern realms of the period and was able to consolidate a moderately sized navy. On the same day as the battle Simeon died in Preslav and his successor Peter I faced internal difficulties and revolts by his brothers Michail and Ivan. The Serbs were able to take advantage of this situation and many of them returned by 931 to their homes in the renewed Serbian realm, thus terminating Croatia's short-lived Bulgarian neighbor at the east.

[Tauromachos]

Early Medieval Serbs must have been genetically similar to Croats and Bosniaks, considering their geographic location. Later they expanded southwards and assimilated a lot of native Balkanites and that’s how you get modern Serbs who are genetically more similar to Bulgarians than to Croats/Bosniaks.

This is my theory at least

I'm not sure about that i think Serbs shift North of Bulgarians along with these other Slavic groups

But this doesn't mean of course that there can't be genetic differences between Serbs,Croatioans and Bosniaks

Anyway all Slavs of the West Balkans show affinities to Eastern Europe according to Sarno et al

[Lavrentis]

R1b In Gheghs is Illyrian and celtic right?

There is more Celtic R1b in Tosks than in Ghegs, at least this particular branch:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/023c4629344e745a11020687a2f0fae3.png

Most R1b in Ghegs is R1b-L23 as far as I remember correctly, and that’s the eastern branch of R1b. I could be wrong though, can anyone share more input regarding Celtic R1b in the Balkans?

[Wrong]

There is more Celtic R1b in Tosks than in Ghegs, at least this particular branch:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/023c4629344e745a11020687a2f0fae3.png

Most R1b in Ghegs is R1b-L23 as far as I remember correctly, and that’s the eastern branch of R1b. I could be wrong though, can anyone share more input regarding Celtic R1b in the Balkans?
R1b-L23 is ancestral to Western R1b's.

Ghegs and Peloponnesian Greeks carry the old, less mutated ones.

Some of the old Eupedia maps are incorrect and not true to the frequencies.

This is a better map for observing the frequencies(covering all R1b clades):
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png


R1b-L23 has to be the clade that Indo-Europeanized Greece in the Bronze Age, as it certainly did with Albanians.

[Pribislav]

Early Medieval Serbs must have been genetically similar to Croats and Bosniaks, considering their geographic location. Later they expanded southwards and assimilated a lot of native Balkanites and that’s how you get modern Serbs who are genetically more similar to Bulgarians than to Croats/Bosniaks.

This is my theory at least

Serbs are larger nation than Croatians and Bosniaks which lived on the larger teritorry and they are more diverse than Bosniaks because of that, not sure for Croatians.
Some Serbs are autosomally closer to Bulgarians and some to Croatians and Bosniaks (from Bosnia), depends of region.

[Moje ime]

Early Medieval Serbs must have been genetically similar to Croats and Bosniaks, considering their geographic location. Later they expanded southwards and assimilated a lot of native Balkanites and that’s how you get modern Serbs who are genetically more similar to Bulgarians than to Croats/Bosniaks.

This is my theory at least

Just replace Bosniaks with Bosnians.

Serbs are genetically diverse, west Serbs are closer to Croats, southern Serbs are closer to Bulgarians,
also there is noticeable north and west European component in many Serbian dna results as far as I know.

[Wrong]

Ghegs + Tosks results together from Albanian project

https://i.imgur.com/hOM6OF6.png

R1b in Ghegs alone is truly around 30%.

[Livin]

R1b-L23 is ancestral to Western R1b's.

Ghegs and Peloponnesian Greeks carry the old, less mutated ones.

Some of the old Eupedia maps are incorrect and not true to the frequencies.

This is a better map for observing the frequencies(covering all R1b clades):
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png


R1b-L23 has to be the clade that Indo-Europeanized Greece in the Bronze Age, as it certainly did with Albanians.

So dorians and illyrians are close?

[Wrong]

So dorians and illyrians are close?
It points to that. Both are influenced by R1b-L23.

There is a reason why Peloponnesian Greeks are more Dinaroid-influenced than the Greeks of neighboring regions.

[Lavrentis]

Serbs are larger nation than Croatians and Bosniaks which lived on the larger teritorry and they are more diverse than Bosniaks because of that, not sure for Croatians.
Some Serbs are autosomally closer to Bulgarians and some to Croatians and Bosniaks (from Bosnia), depends of region.

Agreed, Serbs are a larger nation than Croats and Bosniaks so it makes sense that they have more diversity.

Btw, I remember reading here on TA that Vojvodina Serbs have southern Serbian ancestry dating back to the Great Serbian Migrations, do you agree with this? I thought Serbs from Vojvodina are genetically similar to Hungarians. I have seen some Serbian footballers from Vojvodina who were really light, both of them play for the same Russian team. The first has Slovakian ancestry, Dominik Dinga:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/f91bbbe8a6eb9d56c10d1705b34f96f8.png

And Radovan Pankov:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/f3dd880f24d426714ca569723306fffa.png

[Lavrentis]

It points to that. Both are influenced by R1b-L23.

There is a reason why Peloponnesians are more Dinaroid-influenced than their neighbouring Greeks.

According to a Greek anthropological site, Peloponnesians have Dinaric influence because of the Arvanites. The article is in Greek though:

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2016/02/blog-post_1.html?m=1

[Wrong]

According to a Greek anthropological site, Peloponnesians have Dinaric influence because of the Arvanites. The article is in Greek though:

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2016/02/blog-post_1.html?m=1
This is like saying elevated R1b-L23 in Peloponnesse is due to the Arvanites settled there, do you even agree with that?

[Livin]

It points to that. Both are influenced by R1b-L23.

There is a reason why Peloponnesian Greeks are more Dinaroid-influenced than the Greeks of neighboring regions.

Dinaric phenotype has to do with neolithic populations or with indoeuropean expastion?

[Lavrentis]

This is like saying elevated R1b-L23 in Peloponnesse is due to the Arvanites settled there, do you even agree with that?

Arvanites settled mostly in eastern Peloponnese. If R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated in eastern Peloponnese, then it’s probably because of the Arvanites. Then again, most Arvanites were Tosks while R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated on Ghegs. I guess it’s hard to tell

[Livin]

According to a Greek anthropological site, Peloponnesians have Dinaric influence because of the Arvanites. The article is in Greek though:

http://fyletika.blogspot.com/2016/02/blog-post_1.html?m=1
Kolokotronis was pure Dinarid and He was not arvanite.

[Tauromachos]

Arvanites settled mostly in eastern Peloponnese. If R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated in eastern Peloponnese, then it’s probably because of the Arvanites. Then again, most Arvanites were Tosks while R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated on Ghegs. I guess it’s hard to tell

No they settled in parts of the Eastern and Western Peloponnese and in Hydra but not everywhere by far majority of
Peloponnesians were Greek speakers but they mixed with Arvanites also.

The Arvanite settlements are light redhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG

[Livin]

No they settled in parts of the Eastern and Western Peloponnese and in Hydra but not everywhere by far majority of
Peloponnesians were Greek speakers but they mixed with Arvanites also.

The Arvanite settlements are light redhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG

Arvanites had also meds among them.

Kolokotronis Btw he was pure Dinarid without Being arvanite.

[Jana]

In my opinion L23 should have been both Hellenic and Paleo-Balkan marker. Probably it depends on subclade.

[Wrong]

Arvanites settled mostly in eastern Peloponnese. If R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated in eastern Peloponnese, then it’s probably because of the Arvanites. Then again, most Arvanites were Tosks while R1b-L23 is mostly concentrated on Ghegs. I guess it’s hard to tell
It's difficult to base something out of modern frequencies of populations. It points to a founder effect, a clan and its descendants that spread the genes the most in a span of 600+ years.

[Pribislav]

Agreed, Serbs are a larger nation than Croats and Bosniaks so it makes sense that they have more diversity.

Btw, I remember reading here on TA that Vojvodina Serbs have southern Serbian ancestry dating back to the Great Serbian Migrations, do you agree with this? I thought Serbs from Vojvodina are genetically similar to Hungarians. I have seen some Serbian footballers from Vojvodina who were really light, both of them play for the same Russian team. The first has Slovakian ancestry, Dominik Dinga:

Vojvodinian Serbs are originated partly from south (southern/eastern Serbia, Kosovo and northern Macedonia), and partly from Dinaric area (Bosnia, Herzegovina, Krajina).
Vojvodinia Serbs which southern origin came to Vojvodina mostly in 17th and 18th century, and those which originated from the west/southwest came mostly in 18th and 19th century.

K12b dodecad of 2 Vojvodinian Serbs.


First guy (his family is in Vojvodina about 250 years)

North_European - 38,26
Atlantic_med - 27,83
Caucasus - 19,87
Gedrosia - 6,51
Southwest_Asian - 3,7
South_Asian - 1,81
Northwest_African - 1
Southeast_Asian - 0,77
Siberian - 0,25


Second guy (his family is in Vojvodina at least 330 years)

North_European - 41,81
Atlantic_Med - 26,29
Caucasus - 18,63
Gedrosia - 6,3
Southwest_Asian - 6,29
Southeast_Asian - 0,49
South_Asian - 0,15

[Tauromachos]

Arvanites had also meds among them.


This is true also i didn't claim that Dinaric type in Greeks comes from Arvanites


Dinarics exist also in other parts of Greece also in Islands but they are not majority
Alpines and Meds are more common for most regions.

[Wrong]

Albanian migrations into Greece from the 1300s was also plenty Ghegian.

Remember, it was a north-south migration.

[Tauromachos]

Albanian migrations into Greece from the 1300s was also plenty Ghegian.

Remember it was a north-south migration.


Some Arvanites i know told me that they had ancestors from Northern Albania in their family.

But Arvanites are predominantly related to Tosks and Epirotes

[Wrong]

Some Arvanites i know told me that they had ancestors from Northern Albania in their family.

But Arvanites are predominantly related to Tosks and Epirotes

Arvanites are the same as Arbanites, from Arbanon, this was a place of both Gegs and Toscs, the Arbanitai.
I don't really care about later admixed events, but direct paternal ancestry, which is unbreakable, no matter how strongly one tries to bend it.

https://ellasellas.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/94c26-25ce25b125cf258125ce25b2-map2bof2barvanitic2bmedieval2bmigration2bin2bthe2b balkans.jpg

[Wrong]

In my opinion L23 should have been both Hellenic and Paleo-Balkan marker. Probably it depends on subclade.
By Paleo-Balkan, you mean the Illyrians and Thracians?

I agree.

[Jana]

By Paleo-Balkan, you mean the Illyrians and Thracians?

Yes :) L23 in bronze age Slavonia (Vučedol) pretty much proves it. Vučedol is considered one of cultures than Illyrians originate from.

[Pribislav]

Vojvodinian Serbs are originated partly from south (southern/eastern Serbia, Kosovo and northern Macedonia), and partly from Dinaric area (Bosnia, Herzegovina, Krajina).
Vojvodinia Serbs which southern origin came to Vojvodina mostly in 17th and 18th century, and those which originated from the west/southwest came mostly in 18th and 19th century.

K12b dodecad of 2 Vojvodinian Serbs.


First guy (his family is in Vojvodina about 250 years)

North_European - 38,26
Atlantic_med - 27,83
Caucasus - 19,87
Gedrosia - 6,51
Southwest_Asian - 3,7
South_Asian - 1,81
Northwest_African - 1
Southeast_Asian - 0,77
Siberian - 0,25


Second guy (his family is in Vojvodina at least 330 years)

North_European - 41,81
Atlantic_Med - 26,29
Caucasus - 18,63
Gedrosia - 6,3
Southwest_Asian - 6,29
Southeast_Asian - 0,49
South_Asian - 0,15

Both of them are I2-PH908.

[Dick]

I think I1 has come with Slavs in Greece or no?

Yes, it's possible. There are some I1 Balkan subclades that are downstream from a Belarussian on yfull. TMRCA 2100 ybp so basically some subclades of I1 were incorporated into the Slavic ethnogenesis. Theories of Goths sowing their seed to put it politely, the word Fuck is actually an old English word meaning "to sow seed", in the Balkans are over-exaggerated imo.

[Jana]

Yes, it's possible. There are some I1 Balkan subclades that are downstream from a Belarussian on yfull. TMRCA 2100 ybp so basically some subclades of I1 were incorporated into the Slavic ethnogenesis. Theories of Goths sowing their seed to put it politely, the word Fuck is actually an old English word meaning "to sow seed", in the Balkans are over-exaggerated imo.

East Germanic tribes reached parts of Belarus. Ofcourse it is likely some I1 clades were incorporated in Slavs, but their ultimate origin is Germanic.

All I1 except some strictly Finnish clades looks to be Germanic. And don't forget Goths lived in Balkans for almost 2 centuries.

But in your case I think medieval Saxon origin is more likely, because of your matches.

[Pribislav]

Yes, it's possible. There are some I1 Balkan subclades that are downstream from a Belarussian on yfull. TMRCA 2100 ybp so basically some subclades of I1 were incorporated into the Slavic ethnogenesis. Theories of Goths sowing their seed to put it politely, the word Fuck is actually an old English word meaning "to sow seed", in the Balkans are over-exaggerated imo.

Some I1-Z63 maybe came with Slavs, such as Macure cluster of I1-Z63.
Macure clan have mach in Belarus 1600 years backwards.
Their ancestor maybe was Goth who was slavized in eastern Europe, and their haplogroup later came to the Balkans with Slavs.

I1-P109 in the Balkans hove nothing to do with Slavs.
This haplogroup came to the Balkans with Normans in 11th century, with army of Robert Guiscard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Guiscard#Against_the_Byzantines
Drobnjaci are descendants of some Norman guy which came to the Balkans in late 11th century.

[Dick]

East Germanic tribes reached parts of Belarus. Ofcourse it is likely some I1 clades were incorporated in Slavs, but their ultimate origin is Germanic.

All I1 except some strictly Finnish clades looks to be Germanic. And don't forget Goths lived in Balkans for almost 2 centuries.

But in your case I think medieval Saxon origin is more likely, because of your matches.

I'm not sure about that until more people are tested, especially via SNP testing which is more accurate. As of now I only have 2 matches on Big Y(and unfortunately not everyone can afford the Big Y since it has gone up in price) and they are both relatives from the same family and same surname that have roots from East Anglia in England.

[Peterski]

Slovenia have 18% R1b, but their R1b is mostly Germanic branch. They got R1b from Germans/Austrians, because Slovenians were 900 years under the Germans.
Many Germans stayed in Slovenia 1945 and they are assimilated into Slovenian nation.
Slovenia and Czechia are the most Gemanic influenced Slavic countries.

Which one is more commons among Greeks J2b2, J2b1 or J2a?

R1b-U106 was present in Bohemia 4000 years ago, long before any Germans:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?237400-R1b-U106-from-Unetice-culture

[Dick]

R1b-U106 was present in Bohemia 4000 years ago, long before any Germans:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?237400-R1b-U106-from-Unetice-culture


Boii, a Celtic tribe, one section of which settled in Cisalpine Gaul around Bononia (Bologna, Italy) and another in what was later Bohemia, to which it gave its name. The Cisalpine group, after struggling against the Romans throughout the 3rd century BC, was subdued and made a Latin colony in 191 BC. The second group, which joined with another Celtic tribe, the Helvetii, to invade Gaul


https://www.britannica.com/topic/Boii

[safinator]

There is more Celtic R1b in Tosks than in Ghegs, at least this particular branch:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/023c4629344e745a11020687a2f0fae3.png

Most R1b in Ghegs is R1b-L23 as far as I remember correctly, and that’s the eastern branch of R1b. I could be wrong though, can anyone share more input regarding Celtic R1b in the Balkans?

Curiously enough i never saw an Albanian R1b, other than L23 before a matching a guy on 23andMe, he's R1b-U152 and from a village called Peshkepia in Vlore county.

In professional studies i saw even R1b-L2 which is the true Celtic branch, U-152 is more proto Italic than anything.

[Pribislav]

When Slavs arrived to the Balkans in the most part of Dinaric area there was no paleo-Balkanic people.
Paleo-Balkanic people of Dinaric area were destroyed by Huns, Goths and Avars, and few which survived escaped in 3-4 Dalmatian coastal cities.
Western Balkans was heavy depopulated in Migration Period. Eastern, Southern ans central Balkans had much more paleo-Balkanic people when Slavs came to the Balkans.
Dinaric area was empty land when Slavs settled there. There is no sources which describe relations between Slavs and Romance people in Dinaric area in the early middle age, because there was no any Romance people there in that period. Only in few coastal cities Romance people lived in early middle age and their relations with Slavs were recorded.
Because of this reasons vast majority y dna in Dinaric area is Slavic. Non-Slavic y dna in Dinaric area came much later (mostly in Ottoman period) from the east.
Montenegro is an exception, but even in Montenegro most of paleo-Balkanic y dna mostly came in 15th century from central and southern Balkans when Ottomans came and when some people from central/eastern Balkans excaped to Montenegro.

In Roman period there was only few Roman colonies in Dinaric area, there was much more Roman colonies around Danube and in southern, central and eastern Balkans than in Dinaric area.

Roman colonies in Europe in the second century
https://i.imgur.com/PRTBwkb.jpg