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View Full Version : If you had a chance to redraw Europe's borders... how would you do it?



poiuytrewq0987
03-15-2011, 09:14 PM
I would probably redraw it like this:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/9226/neweurope.png

Saruman
03-15-2011, 09:21 PM
Northern fleet HQ, port of Murmansk to Finland?:eek: Calling FSB(or KGB if you like)...;):D

Sikeliot
03-15-2011, 09:22 PM
I'd give Corsica back to Italy and make Scotland, England, and Wales independent.

SaxonCeorl
03-15-2011, 09:41 PM
I'd keep it as is, but add Constantinople and Anatolia.

Wyn
03-15-2011, 09:57 PM
I would probably redraw it like this:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/9226/neweurope.png

What claim does Wales have on western Shropshire and Herefordshire? :mad: I will remember this national insult.

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 10:18 PM
The main differences would be that:

Finland would get back Karelia (all the way up to Murmansk), the Torne Valley and parts of Ingria.

Estonia would get back some parts of Ingria.

Sweden the Åland Islands, Runö, Ormsö and Rickull.

Norway would get back Herjedalen.

Denmark would get back Slesvig.

There would be a re-united Germany (including Austria, South Tyrol, the Sudetenland, the former German-speaking parts of the Alsace Lorraine, Prussia (including Danzig), Pomerania, former German-speaking Silezia and Oppeln). In order to stop the never-ending stream of bullshit with minorities will minorities be exchanged. That means that the Croats and Poles will be repatriated and Germans living in non-mentioned parts that wish to return to Germany will indeed do so - so this means that the Transylvanian Saxons will be supported into returning to Germany and be allocated specific areas for them to retain their identity where possible). Burgenland will become part of Hungary again. The southern-most city in Germany will be Marburg an der Drau. In the west Germany would lose territories to the Netherlands (mainly Gelre and East Frisia while the Oostkantons in what is now Belgium will become German) and in the north to Denmark when Slesvig is returned.

Switzerland would also get bigger: the Vorarlberg (if it would still choose so) could join Switzerland and so could parts of the Savoy in France.

The Netherlands would be reunited with Belgium (including Wallonia) and acquire South Flanders and the northern parts of Artesië in France - but without the province of Luxembourg in what is now Belgium which would become part of Luxembourg. It would get back East Frisia, Gelre, the lands of 's Hertogenrade, Gulik from Germany. It will however hand over the socalled Oostkantons in what is now Belgium to Germany.

Luxembourg would of course get the province of Luxembourg and the area around Thionville in France.

Britain and Ireland would see a devolution and a re-unification under a new kind of United Kingdom and Northern Ireland will be united with Ireland and thus remain part of a new United Kingdom. Within the United Kingdom will Cornwall become independent and the Shetlands, Man and the Channel Islands should receive a kind of status aparte.

France would just get some French-speaking valleys in Italy but lose a lot. Including Corsica (which could join Italy or become independent), the Bask Country (which will become united with the Bask Country with Spain and become independent) and parts of French Catalonia which will become part of Catalonia in Spain.

Spain will lose Galicia to Portugal. The Bask Country will become independent. Gibraltar will remain British if they choose so.

Italy will lose a lot to mainly Germany but gain Corsica.

Serbia will get back Kosovo and the Republika Srpska and the other Serb speaking regions but lose the Vajdaság to Hungary.

Croatia will get the Croatian-speaking parts of Bosnia.

Hungary will get back parts of Transylvania, Vajdaság, the Hungarian-speaking parts of Slovakia and the Burgenland.

Poland will lose a lot of territory but will get it's original lands in Belarus, the Ukraine back from those that confiscated it. And it will be allowed to restore the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Czechs will not gain anything apart from the minor Czech-speaking minorities in Germany and Poland and have the other Czech-speaking minorities in mainly Hungary and former Yugoslavia returned to them. The same goes for the Slovaks.

Romania will get back Moldavia and some minor regions in Serbia but of course lose swaps of Transylvania.

Macedonia will cease to exist and have it's territories divided between Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and Serbia.

Kosovo will cease to exist and become part of Serbia which will have the right to deport the Albanian influx.

Greece will be allowed to take over Asia Minor, Cyprus, Constitanople and the islands in the Aegean.

Russia will lose a lot and gain nothing in this round but they will be able to consolidate themselves by slowly getting rid of the minority republics. Which in the end will make them stronger. The Russian minorities in the Baltic will be repatriated on request and will not be left behind empty-handed. Although they will be allowed to re-unify themselves with the Ukraine and the remainders of Belarus into a unified Russia.

There will be a couple of new states in Europe: mainly Ruthenia which would be on parts of Belarus and the Ukraine, Seborga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seborga) in Northern Italy (which has claimed independence but has never been recognised) and Sorbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatia) which will be taking parts of Eastern Germany where the Sorbian minority is predominant as well as those little parts of Poland and the Czech Republic where that is the case.

Germanicus
03-15-2011, 10:44 PM
I would probably redraw it like this:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/9226/neweurope.png

Hey thats good enough for me...The Scots have their bit of land back, and the Welsh has their bit of land...brilliant...the Irish of course can have it all, did we ever really want Northern Ireland? i think not.

Now that England is free from the burden of providing services and benefits to the Scots and the rest, boy will you see a difference in the amount of money that is just for the English in the goverment kitty.....:)

The Map of continental Europe is ok i guess but you must remember the English are an island race and is hardly qualified to make judgement on other borders, unless asked to do so....last time 1938-1990s

Arne
03-15-2011, 10:47 PM
Denmark would get back Slesvig.

No Reason for that, Denmark gave us Schleswig in righteous Purpose.

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 10:50 PM
No Reason for that, Denmark gave us Schleswig in righteous Purpose.
Nope.. it was taken from them in 1864.

Ushtari
03-15-2011, 10:51 PM
Kosovo will cease to exist and become part of Serbia which will have the right to deport the Albanian influx.
I have already proved for you that Serbs are immigrants in kosovo and not vice versa.

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 10:52 PM
I have already proved for you that Serbs are immigrants in kosovo and not vice versa.
No proof. Just bullshit. Go back to Turkey. :thumb001:
Bosnia and the Muslim presence in Kosovo are two zits that should be pressed out.

Ushtari
03-15-2011, 10:55 PM
No proof. Just bullshit. Go back to Turkey. :thumb001:]
Yeah, cuz the words of several scholars dont come close to the words of civis batavi, who ironically knows less about balkan than the average 10 years old balkanoid.:coffee:

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 10:57 PM
Yeah, cuz the words of several scholars dont come close to the words of civis batavi, who ironically knows less about balkan than the average 10 years old balkanoid.
I rely on the Serbs rather then your propaganda. Are you going to post a map or not ?

Good: some more changes- Albania's sole reason of existence will rest on whether it converts to Christianity - if not: Greece and Serbia will have the right to invade and divide it.

The Turkish minorities in all of Europe are to be expelled. Including in Cyprus. It would be the end of Islam in Europe. Forever.

Ushtari
03-15-2011, 11:01 PM
[FONT="Georgia"]
I rely on the Serbs rather then your propaganda. Are you going to post a map or not ?
My propaganda?

Well lets start with this one

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5407/books2.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5469/books3.jpg

Source:
http://books.google.se/books?id=XFtbEd1ojBsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=indo+european+language&hl=en&ei=tMo9TdmtLI7JswaNwuzzBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=albanian&f=false

Germanicus
03-15-2011, 11:02 PM
Bosnia.... Serbia....Croatia is a melting pot, and from now on must be regulated by the West permanently because as seen in the past it will bring upon conflicts again?

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 11:02 PM
I don't care about what you have to say as to me you're not even a European.

Comte Arnau
03-15-2011, 11:11 PM
Nobody here is going to like my map of Europe. Mwahaha. :D


http://s2.postimage.org/4jnf0vfet/AP_C_my_EUR.png

Guapo
03-15-2011, 11:20 PM
No proof. Just bullshit.


Early in the twentieth century Serbian Christians were roughly two-thirds of the population of Kosovo. After WW2, Communist dictator Tito did not allow Serbs who fled from their homes to return and did not enforce border controls as thousands of Albanians moved into Kosovo.

In 1982 The New York Times noted: 'Serbs have been harassed by Albanians and have packed up and left the region. The Albanian nationalists have a two-point platform, first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then to merge with Albania for a greater Albania. Hundreds of Thousands of Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade.' Five years later, in 1987, the Times was still reporting the persecution of Serbs within Kosovo. Ethnic Albanians controlled almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools, and factories.

It was this situation that led to the rise of Serb nationalist leader Slobodan Milosevic.

Vrijbuiter
03-15-2011, 11:43 PM
The Netherlands would be reunited with Belgium (including Wallonia) and acquire South Flanders and the northern parts of Artesië in France
I like where this is going. :thumb001:

The Lawspeaker
03-15-2011, 11:45 PM
I like where this is going. :thumb001:
Anders ik wel ! :cool: (Yap.. same here.)

Peasant
03-15-2011, 11:49 PM
http://www.goldalert.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/eu-map.jpg

I would revert this loss of real borders.

Nglund
03-15-2011, 11:59 PM
http://zombietime.com/europe_in_2015/Europe_2015.gif

Sturmgewehr
03-16-2011, 02:15 AM
I love this kind of Wet Dreams, it already smells like someone just jacked off on this thread.

Gaztelu
03-16-2011, 02:24 AM
http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/800px-Espaa-locsvg.png

Blue: Kingdom of Galicia-Lusitania

Purple: Kingdom of Asturias-Leon

Red: Kingdom of Castilla

Green: Iberian portion of the Basque Republic

Orange: Iberian Portion of the Catalonian-Occitanian Federation

I'll post the rest of Europe later.

Lábaru
03-16-2011, 02:46 AM
http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/800px-Espaa-locsvg.png

Blue: Kingdom of Galicia-Lusitania

Purple: Kingdom of Asturias-Leon

Red: Kingdom of Castilla

Green: Iberian portion of the Basque Republic

Orange: Iberian Portion of the Catalonian-Occitanian Federation

I'll post the rest of Europe later.

The dream of all the enemies of Spain, certainly supported by Muslims, Jews and all kinds of Marxists and terrorists.

On the other hand 99% of the Galician go to war before joining Portugal, I think there is not nothing they want less, a majority of Aragon, Balearic Islands and Valencia would prefers die than be united in a kingdom Catalan and not doubt Canary people expect to have independence too, if that Spain will disintegrate as kingdom, finally, the Spanish territories of Ceuta and Melilla I guess you're giving it to the Moors as a good enemy of Spain but that is impossible, the castilians never would leave our people at the hands of the Moors.

And after orgy of independence, it's fun to watch La Rioja and Navarra absorbed by Basque imperialism,

Gaztelu
03-16-2011, 03:03 AM
The dream of all the enemies of Spain, certainly supported by Muslims, Jews and all kinds of Marxists and terrorists.

As if Muslims, Jews, and leftists want to see Hispania return to the days of the Old Order . . .

Hess
03-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Macedonia will cease to exist and have it's territories divided between Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and Serbia.




Why would you be so cruel to Macedonia? All the Macedonians that I've spoken to ( which is a couple) seem to be proud of their country.

and nice signature.

The Lawspeaker
03-16-2011, 03:23 AM
Why would you be so cruel to Macedonia? All the Macedonians that I've spoken to ( which is a couple) seem to be proud of their country.
For what I hear it doesn't seem to be a real people and ethnicity but a new one created under Commie Yugoslavia.


and nice signature.
Thanks ! :)

Lábaru
03-16-2011, 03:24 AM
As if Muslims, Jews, and leftists want to see Hispania return to the days of the Old Order . . .

You can bet your head, North Africa free of infidels is the fantasy of Al-qaeda, Iberian peninsula divided into small kingdoms, the dream of every follower of Allah.

And "old order? guess you talk about this.

http://bachiller.sabuco.com/historia/images/La%20herencia%20de%20Carlos%20I.jpg

Comte Arnau
03-16-2011, 04:17 AM
^ Oh yeah, 'Old Order' back!!


http://s2.postimage.org/4l9xzjkjp/ap_C_IBoo.png

Groenewolf
03-16-2011, 06:14 AM
I like where this is going. :thumb001:

Except for some Francophiles, who does not :D .

Ushtari
03-16-2011, 09:23 AM
Early in the twentieth century Serbian Christians were roughly two-thirds of the population of Kosovo.
Do you have a source for this? because the sources i have tells me different.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7372/booken11.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/booken11.jpg/)
http://books.google.com/books?id=3fYuy5iUi_sC&lpg=PP1&dq=defeat%20in%20detail%3A%20the%20ottoman&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false





as thousands of Albanians moved into Kosovo.
Do you have a source for this?

Motörhead Remember Me
03-16-2011, 09:48 AM
Northern fleet HQ, port of Murmansk to Finland?:eek: Calling FSB(or KGB if you like)...;):D

We should have all lands to the Ural. And beyond.

Breedingvariety
03-16-2011, 10:00 AM
I would do this:

Albion
03-16-2011, 11:55 AM
I would probably redraw it like this:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/9226/neweurope.png

Nice. Mine would be quite similar to that.

Gaztelu
03-16-2011, 03:43 PM
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=240&pictureid=1719

Red: Normandy will join with England to create the Anglo-Norman Alliance

Blue: Brittany will become part of the Celtic Confederation

Grey: All of that land will go the Dutch-Flemish Union

Yellow: Alsace-Lorraine will be reunited with Germany

Orange: Occitania will become part of the Catalonian-Occitanian Federation

Green: The French Department of Pyrénées-Atlantiques will be a county within the Basque Republic

The Lawspeaker
03-16-2011, 03:48 PM
Nope - they would loose Artesië and Flanders to us, Thionville to Luxembourg and the Alsace-Lorraine to Germany.

Gaztelu
03-16-2011, 03:50 PM
Nope - they would loose Artesië and Flanders to us, Thionville to Luxembourg and the Alsace-Lorraine to Germany.

Thanks for reminding me. I'll change the map.

The Lawspeaker
03-16-2011, 03:53 PM
Thanks for reminding me. I'll change the map.
Maybe some Franche-Comté and Haute-Savoie to Switzerland. :D

Comte Arnau
03-16-2011, 04:01 PM
Maybe some Franche-Comté and Haute-Savoie to Switzerland. :D


Exactly. As in my map. Arpitan-speaking France, Switzerland and Italian Aosta would form one single country: Savoy.

Svanhild
03-16-2011, 06:09 PM
Excuse my graphic tool skills. :wink

Germany obtains Austria, Elsaß-Lothringen, Südtirol, Silesia, Ostpreußen, Sudetenland, Danzig and the German parts of Belgium.

Belgium has been dissolved. Wallony to France, Flandern to the Netherlands, the small German part to Germany.

CSSR is restored, Hungary retakes some territory.


http://s1.directupload.net/images/110316/feetsmu7.jpg

Guapo
03-16-2011, 06:10 PM
Poor Poland :(

Mordid
03-16-2011, 06:13 PM
Excuse my graphic tool skills. :wink

Germany obtains Austria, Elsaß-Lothringen, Südtirol, Silesia, Ostpreußen, Sudetenland, Danzig and the German parts of Belgium.

Belgium has been dissolved. Wallony to France, Flandern to the Netherlands, the small German part to Germany.

CSSR is restored, Hungary retakes some territory.


http://s1.directupload.net/images/110316/feetsmu7.jpg

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Breedingvariety
03-16-2011, 06:13 PM
Germany obtains Silesia, Ostpreußen, Sudetenland, Danzig
What do you do with people living in Eastern territories?

Guapo
03-16-2011, 06:14 PM
What do you do with people living in Eastern territories?

Men to the gulags, women stay put?

The Lawspeaker
03-16-2011, 06:15 PM
Excuse my graphic tool skills. :wink

Germany obtains Austria, Elsaß-Lothringen, Südtirol, Silesia, Ostpreußen, Sudetenland, Danzig and the German parts of Belgium.

Belgium has been dissolved. Wallony to France, Flandern to the Netherlands, the small German part to Germany.

CSSR is restored, Hungary retakes some territory.


http://s1.directupload.net/images/110316/feetsmu7.jpg
Agreed.. except for Wallonia. No further French encroachments into the Netherlands. We'll take the Walloons in as well.

Svanhild
03-16-2011, 06:18 PM
Poor Poland :(
No sympathy. Poland's expand to the west after WW2 took place on full expense of the German population and German territory. It's overdue to correct historical misdeterminations. Poland should take its former parts in the east back. Nr.10 on the map.

http://www.fmboschetto.it/Utopiaucronia/U_Europa_1919.gif

Mordid
03-16-2011, 06:18 PM
Anti-Polish here, obviously. :eek::rolleyes::mad::coffee:

Svanhild
03-16-2011, 06:24 PM
Anti-Polish here, obviously. :eek::rolleyes::mad::coffee:
As a matter of fact, large parts of my family came from Ostpreußen, Pommern and Danzig. They were forcefully expelled from their homes after WW2. Polish people took their real estates together with most of the inventory. Don't blame it on the Russians. Polish people took willingly what the Sovjets offered them.

Wyn
03-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Red: Normandy will join with England to create the Anglo-Norman Alliance

Assuming you aren't joking/trolling, what is the basis for this? The English (nationalist) frame of mind is strongly anti-Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_yoke).

Gaztelu
03-16-2011, 06:52 PM
Assuming you aren't joking/trolling, what is the basis for this? The English (nationalist) frame of mind is strongly anti-Norman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_yoke).

You caught me. :D

Albion
03-17-2011, 09:42 AM
OK, here's mine. It includes the areas of the Near East which were already on the map as well. Its quite radical in areas I think, there'll probably be a lot of people who hate it. :D

http://i54.tinypic.com/n5r5gi.png

Information on reorganizing the borders: (Very detailed)

Please excuse any spelling mistakes in placenames.


Faroe: New independent nation formed from the merger of Shetland and Orkney with the Faroe Islands. The union then becomes independent with Faeroese as its official language and models itself on Iceland.

Greenland: The Erik the Red's land project is resurrected. Eastern areas of Norway break away from the Inuit-dominated remainder of Greenland.
Scandinavians were the first to reach the East coast of Greenland and thus the “native rights” of Inuit in Eastern Greenland are void. The Scandinavian absence from Eastern Greenland beginning in the 15th century was only temporary as Denmark, a Scandinavian nation seized control of the island a few centuries latter.
Norway from also claimed “Erik the Red's land” and the new Scandinavian Greenlander nation shall be predominantly in this claimed area. The numbers of Scandinavians shall also be reinforced by settlers from Norway, Iceland, Denmark and the British Isles. As the climate warms and becomes more temperate the land will be easier to settle but the nation would prepare for the worst, the fate which befell its predecessor.

Norway: Would annex Harjendale and Jamtland as well as areas lost to Sweden around Blenkinge. Would lose some areas of Finnmark to an autonomous Sami state (see below).
Svalbard and Jan Mayen would be properly settled.

Sweden: Would lose territory it annexed from Norway and Denmark as well as to an autonomous Sami state. Would regain Aaland.

Denmark: Would regain Scania.

Finland: Would loose Aaland to Sweden (as mentioned above) and to the Sami state. Finland would gain more than it would loose by annexing Karelia and the Kola Peninsula.

Sapmi (the autonomous Sami state): Sapmi (aka “Lappland”) would be created from portions of Scandinavian nations (which encrouched and slowly colonized former Sami territory anyway). Its capital would be Kiruna.

Ingria: May not be viable, if that is the case then it would be part of Estonia.

Nenetsia: Based on the Nenets region of Russia and a nation for the Nenets reindeer herders.

Komi: Make the so-called Komi Republic into a real republic, that is separated from Russia.

Mari El, Modovinia: Independent. Probably under heavy Russian influence owing to geography, demography and history.

Kazakhstan: European section to Russia.

Russia: Would loose land to Komia, Nenetsia, Finland, Ingria (or Estonia) Mari El and Mordovinia. Would gain a section of Ukraine and Kazakhstan (predominantly Russian ethnic areas). Would also loose Kalingrad to Germany.

Ireland: Would gain Northern Ireland from the UK. A autonomous protestant area around Belfast would be created within the Irish republic.

Scotland: Would lose Orkney and Shetland – technically they should have been handed back to Denmark. Would maybe loose Scottish Borders to England. Would become independent from UK and would take responsibility for looking after Isle of Man.

Isle of Man: Would become a dependency of Scotland.

England: Would become independent. Would correct the border with Wales (also see Welsh entry). England would regain Maelor Sassanach, Chepstow and Flintshire from Wales in return for returning Clun Forest and the area to the west of Oswestry back to Wales.
Would perhaps annex Scottish Borders and would re-draw the border with Cornwall. The Tamar has never been a good border since even in Saxon times Eastern Cornwall was mainly English and still is today. Eastern Cornwall would go to Devon whilst Western Cornwall would federate with Wales.
England would also lose the Channel Islands to Normandy (see below). Would reclaim land from the sea along East Anglia.

Wales and Cornwall: Would lose some areas to England as mentioned above but also gain some areas. Cornwall and Wales would form a loose federation with Wales being the major component.

Normandy: Would be formed from the two Norman areas of France and the Channel Islands.

Estonia: Would annex Livonia.

Brittany: Based on the historic Dutch and including Nantes.

Occittania: New nation based on Occittan areas. Would annex Monaco.

Basque country: Would form a new nation.

Catalonia: Would unite the Catalan countries into a single nation.

Portugal: Would annex Galicia.

Netherlands: Would merge with Flanders. The New Netherlands would lose Friesland which would become independent or independent within the Kingdom of the Netherlands structure.
An area off the coast of the Netherlands would also be reclaimed in conjunction with the project in England and for the same reasons. Currently a proposed scheme is Tulip Island but this would go beyond that.

Friesland: Would become independent and would reclaim an area of land from the sea in conjunction with England and the Netherlands.

France: Would loose land to Basque country, Occittania, Brittany, Germany, Naples and Normandy but would gain Wallonia and French areas of Switzerland.

Switzerland: Divided between its neighbours.

Italy: Would gain Italian and Romansch areas of Switzerland and San Marino. Would loose former Kingdom of Naples and South Tyrol to Germany.
Would be similar in concept to "Padania" but would retain the name Italy.

Kingdom of Naples: Based on historic kingdom but including Corsica.

Germany: Would annex Austria, Lichtenstein and German Switzerland as well as Alsass-Lorringen, Luxembourg and Konnigsberg (Kalingrad). Konnigsberg would form a new German state based on the former entity – Prussia. Would also annex South Tyrol.

Slovakia: Would lose majority Hungarian areas to Hungary.
Hungary: Would gain said areas from Slovakia and Hungarian enclave in Romania.

Slovenia: Would annex a few minor Slovene areas from Austria.

Croatia: Would incorporate Croatian areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina and loose Serb areas to Serbia.

Serbia: Would gain Serb areas from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and would annex Montenegro (what exactly makes the Montenegrins think they're different to Serbs exactly???).

Bosnia: Predominantly Bosniak areas would form Bosnia and efforts would be led to Christianize it.

Kosovo and Albania: Merge. All Albanians in Macedonia and other areas would be expelled to Albania.

Macedonia: Would regain Aegean Macedonia where the Greeks initiated a process of assimilation all those years ago. Greeks would be told to shut up over the naming and all other disputes.

Romania: Would lose areas to Hungary but would annex Moldova. The Gagauz state within Moldova would become independent.

Greece: Would Lose Aegean Macedonia as mentioned above but would annex Greek Cyprus, Byzantium / Constantinople (“Istanbul”) and areas of Western and South Western Turkey.

Pontus: Would be created in the area proposed for the Greek Republic of Pontus and would be settled with Pontic Greeks who were expelled in the Greek-Turkish population exchanges and were there previously for millennia.

Armenia: Would take the Van region, Karabkh and many historically Armenian areas.

Georgia: Would annex European areas of Azerbaijan.

Near East:

Azerbaijan: Would take Azeri areas in Iran.

Kurdistan: Would be created in the proposed region:

Turkey: Would lose land to all mentioned parties but would gain North Cyprus.

Lebanon: Mount Lebanon, the historically Christian area of Lebanon would become independent.

Palestine: To Egypt and Jordan.

Assyria: A new homeland for the Christian Assyrians would be created.

Egypt: Would gain Gaza.

Jordan: Would gain West Bank.

Libya: Rebel controlled east would become a new nation.

As well as this the Schengen and Common Travel areas would be scrapped and replaced with regional travel areas for the free movement of people based around regions, cultural and ethnic ties:

http://i54.tinypic.com/35jcyvl.png

And finally here is an economic map. Ideally all the European nations would belong to the EFTA. This map shows the likely economic impact of the redrawn borders.
The economic ratings are based on size of the economies, not neccesarily if they're rich or poor in GDP per capita.

http://i54.tinypic.com/33uuzcn.png

poiuytrewq0987
03-17-2011, 09:45 AM
http://i54.tinypic.com/33uuzcn.png

Lol... are you trying to get on Maniot's hit list?

Albion
03-17-2011, 09:52 AM
Lol... are you trying to get on Maniot's hit list?

Who?

poiuytrewq0987
03-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Who?

He changed his name to Chimo Bayo I believe.

Albion
03-17-2011, 10:05 AM
He changed his name to Chimo Bayo I believe.

Ah, the Hellenic. perhaps he'd like the additions to Greece - extending it in some way into former Byzantium Empire and the Pontic Greek Republic, but I wonder what he'll say about Aegean Macedonia. :p

Comte Arnau
03-17-2011, 10:06 AM
Kingdom of Naples: Based on historic kingdom but including Corsica.


Why Corsica in Naples and not in Italy?

As for the rest, a very similar map to mine, so I agree. :thumb001: Although I atomized it even more. :p

Albion
03-17-2011, 10:11 AM
Why Corsica in Naples and not in Italy?

As for the rest, a very similar map to mine, so I agree. :thumb001: Although I atomized it even more. :p

I thought culturally it was more leaning to Southern Italy and Sardinia although I could be wrong.

Comte Arnau
03-17-2011, 10:17 AM
I thought culturally it was more leaning to Southern Italy and Sardinia although I could be wrong.

Well, from an ethnolinguistic point of view, it's an offspring from Tuscany, probably on a previous population which might be related to Sardinia, giving it some distinction from continental Italians. Besides, there has been Genoese and Pisan influence on the island too. :)

Gaztelu
03-17-2011, 03:12 PM
disregard this post - delete please

Peasant
03-18-2011, 01:32 PM
As well as this the Schengen and Common Travel areas would be scrapped and replaced with regional travel areas for the free movement of people based around regions, cultural and ethnic ties:

http://i54.tinypic.com/35jcyvl.png


Wouldn't Brittany and Normandy have some ethnic ties to the British Isles?

Gaztelu
03-18-2011, 05:10 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/35jcyvl.png



If I were to redraw this map, I would give the Bretons, Cornwallers, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish their own Celtia Magna, while the English stay with the other Germanic nations.

Gaztelu
03-18-2011, 05:27 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/33uuzcn.png

The Basque Country and Catalonia-Valencia would be in the red zone, FYI.

antonio
03-18-2011, 10:33 PM
It's somewhat bizarre to see Aragon so exclusively attached to Castille.

Peyrol
03-18-2011, 11:21 PM
crappy quality, but shows the idea ...
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8066/75648015.png (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/75648015.png/)

(PS. Corsica and Dalmazia to Italy, Ostpreussen to Germany, Cipro to Greece.)

Óttar
03-18-2011, 11:36 PM
Albania's sole reason of existence will rest on whether it converts to Christianity
Methinks you have a very simplistic view of religion. It would be better if they became agnostics.

The Lawspeaker
03-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Methinks you have a very simplistic view of religion. It would be better if they became agnostics.
Whatever.. as long as they are not Muslims.

Svanhild
03-19-2011, 01:15 AM
crappy quality, but shows the idea ...
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8066/75648015.png (http://server7.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s7iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s7iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s7iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s7iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sxa/sslkserupcz/s51bif/p1/i/75648015.png/)

Good map. Well thought out! :wink You're the first Italian I meet who would give back Südtirol to Austria/Germany?

Gaztelu
03-19-2011, 02:58 AM
crappy quality, but shows the idea ...
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8066/75648015.png (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/75648015.png/)

(PS. Corsica and Dalmazia to Italy, Ostpreussen to Germany, Cipro to Greece.)

The Basque Country isn't big enough.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 03:33 AM
It's somewhat bizarre to see Aragon so exclusively attached to Castille.

Well, let's be honest, the genuine Aragonese ethnicity has almost disappeared, even in the north. Young Aragonese, specially in Zaragón, are nowadays a sort of 'Eastern Castilians'.

Beorn
03-19-2011, 03:39 AM
If I were to redraw this map, I would give the Bretons, Cornwallers, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish their own Celtia Magna, while the English stay with the other Germanic nations.

Pan this that and the other.

The pipes play such sweet music.

poiuytrewq0987
03-19-2011, 04:22 AM
My first map was pragmatic but this one is more idealistic.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4566/neweurope2.png

Svanhild
03-19-2011, 01:09 PM
My first map was pragmatic but this one is more idealistic.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4566/neweurope2.png

Splitting Germany into three parts and giving parts to Poland and Czech Republic? You're the son of Morgenthau?

http://blog.therisetothetop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/jerk-pic-1.jpg

harriet
03-19-2011, 01:21 PM
I would just redraw the borders so that nations and states coincide. I'd give peoples which are currently stateless their own states and I'd unite peoples which are currently divided by artificial borders. There's relatively little reorganization needed in Western Europe I think but in Eastern Europe, I'd create many more states for the Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Udmurts, Chechens, Ossetes etc.

Hussar
03-19-2011, 02:10 PM
Exactly. As in my map. Arpitan-speaking France, Switzerland and Italian Aosta would form one single country: Savoy.

...well,in that case you have to add 50% of Piedmont (Turin included).

Mordid
03-19-2011, 02:41 PM
My first map was pragmatic but this one is more idealistic.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4566/neweurope2.png

:thumb001::tongue:laugh::evil:dev

The Ripper
03-19-2011, 03:12 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/europe-1.jpg

Breedingvariety
03-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Leningrad- Godmen, give me a break!:rolleyes:

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-19-2011, 03:18 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/wilpuri/europe-1.jpg


it looks like someone spilled coffee on the upper part of map.

The Ripper
03-19-2011, 03:19 PM
Leningrad- Godmen, give me a break!:rolleyes:

Leningrad will be razed to the ground, purified of its human waste and evolutionary cul-de-sacs and made into the biggest out door swimming stadium in the world.


it looks like someone spilled coffee on the upper part of map.

Its the radiance of the Godmen. You fool.

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-19-2011, 03:23 PM
Its the radiance of the Godmen. You fool.


Looks like spilled coffee to me.



Leningrad will be razed to the ground, purified of its human waste and evolutionary cul-de-sacs and made into the biggest out door swimming stadium in the world.

It's Saint-Petesburg, you bastards! Saint - effing - Petersburg!!! Lenin was not born here. :mad:

Wyn
03-19-2011, 03:25 PM
it looks like someone spilled coffee on the upper part of map.

FoR1aners, N1c1rs etc. give off a bright yellow gas.

Loki
03-19-2011, 03:27 PM
My first map was pragmatic but this one is more idealistic.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4566/neweurope2.png

LOL. Revival of the Ottoman Empire? :D At least you left [some of] Greece out of it. ;)

The Ripper
03-19-2011, 03:28 PM
Looks like spilled coffee to me.

Divine radiance looks like that to some people.




It's Saint-Petesburg, you bastards! Saint - effing - Petersburg!!! Lenin was not born here. :mad:

I would prefer... Nevanlinna!

Peasant
03-19-2011, 03:29 PM
The coffee stain is actually the hordes of Somalis.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 03:36 PM
I'd unite peoples which are currently divided by artificial borders. There's relatively little reorganization needed in Western Europe

Well, I wouldn't call it little. There's a minimum of 15 to 20 stateless nations in Non-Slavic Western Europe alone, and depending on what one regards as a distinct ethnic group, the number could perfectly rise over 30.


...well,in that case you have to add 50% of Piedmont (Turin included).

You're right, I wasn't completely aware that it took so much of the Piedmont. Although, considering these two maps, I'd say much of it is probably transitional and so prone to political decisions that would not be properly ethnolinguistic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Francoprovencal-Geo-Map-1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Piemont%C3%A8is.jpg

My opinion is that both the Padanese and the 'Rhaeto-Romance' peoples should form one single powerful country, with capital in Milan and not in Mantua. It'd make sense from an ethnical POV and it'd likely be the richest country in southern Europe. But I'm aware that many North Italians wouldn't like the idea at all. Besides, unlike in Iberia, where Spain was formed by annexion of Aragon by Castilians and hence there's a historical right to desire independence, in Italy reunification was initiated by the North itself, so it's a completely different story.

harriet
03-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Mm, the situation is worse than I thought! My apologies :)

I would create states for the;
- English, Scots, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, Bretons, Basques, Catalans, Frisians, Lapps and Faroe Islanders in Western Europe
- Sorbians, Silesians, Bohemians, Komi, Mari, Mordvins, Udmurts, Ossetes, Abkhazians and Chechens in Eastern Europe

I would unite the;
- Irish and Northern Irish
- Dutch and Flemish
- Romanians and Moldovans
- Serbians and Kosovans

I would restore the traditional lands of each nation-state, e.g. Northern Epirus/Macedonia/Constantinople to Greece, Schleswig to Denmark etc.
I would also return displaced peoples to their places of origin. Possibly move the Crimean Tatars to Tatarstan, Kalmyks to Mongolia/Tibet etc.

Peoples like the Occitans and the Savoyards might be too gallicized to be viable as a nation I think.

That's all I can think of ATM :)

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.

harriet
03-19-2011, 04:08 PM
Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.

Ah, that changes things! If this was ever to become practicable, a commission of sorts comprising ethnographers, linguists, historians, geographers, sociographers etc. could be established to redraw Europe's borders, so that we could identify all of the nations and their rightful places.

Groenewolf
03-19-2011, 04:10 PM
Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.

Indeed, they became slowly but surely more Francophone. A process stimulated during different French occupations of the South. Many cities in Wallonia, for example, originally had Dutch/Germanic names.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 04:13 PM
Indeed, they became slowly but surely more Francophone. A process stimulated during different French occupations of the South. Many cities in Wallonia, for example, originally had Dutch/Germanic names.

That includes many places in South Flanders, Henegouwen and Artesië.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 04:20 PM
Mm, the situation is worse than I thought! My apologies :)

I would create states for the;
- English, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, Bretons, Basques, Catalans, Frisians, Lapps and Faroe Islanders in Western Europe

Peoples like the Occitans and the Savoyards might be too gallicized to be viable as a nation I think.

That's all I can think of ATM :)

Well, what I've always thought is that being a distinct nation is not enough, there must be a political will to become a state too. In that sense, it's true that only a few nations could achieve statehood because there is a long historical tradition of claiming it, backed by parties and associations of some relevance in the population. By that, I'd say that there'd only be a few ones which could be viable soon (mainly Scotland, Wales, Catalonia, Basque Country and Flanders, maybe Faroe too), others that could be in the long run (Galicia, Brittany, Lappland, Frisia...) and others that have it much more difficult or have awoken much more recently.


Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.

And the French are Latinized Franks. :p

Wyn
03-19-2011, 04:23 PM
And the French are Latinized Franks. :p

Most Franks were just Frankicised Gauls. ;)

Loki
03-19-2011, 04:39 PM
Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.

I don't really think so. I read Pieter Geyl's History of the Dutch-speaking Peoples, and he makes a clear historical distinction between the mainly Celtic Francophones and the Germanic Dutch-speakers in the region.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't really think so. I read Pieter Geyl's History of the Dutch-speaking Peoples, and he makes a clear historical distinction between the mainly Celtic Francophones and the Germanic Dutch-speakers in the region.
Then you have to explain to me how it comes that so many Walloons have Dutch last names. For instance Didier Reynders, politician.

Don
03-19-2011, 04:46 PM
Well, nothing new...


Orange, Castilla.
The rest coloured, Spain, as a Whole, the alphas.

The white regions, the rest of Europe, I mean the ladies.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Spanish/SPAN272/restricted/imperio.gif

harriet
03-19-2011, 05:15 PM
I imagine all of this would only become possible once all international conflicts had been settled. Europe would need to be capable of generating all the resources it needs and similarly so would its neighbours (lest they invade/encroach Europe). I hope the West does achieve energy security, increased automation etc. so that cultural issues can come to the fore.

Loki
03-19-2011, 05:46 PM
Then you have to explain to me how it comes that so many Walloons have Dutch last names. For instance Didier Reynders, politician.

Wow, that looks like treachery! Why would a man of Dutch blood ever want to speak French? :eek:

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 05:59 PM
Wow, that looks like treachery! Why would a man of Dutch blood ever want to speak French? :eek:
Because they were Frenchified over the years. And the divisions are not as clear as some Flemish "nationalists" (usually very pro-Israel) like to paint it is.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Because they were Frenchified over the years. And the divisions are not as clear as some Flemish "nationalists" (usually very pro-Israel) like to paint it is.


I'm no expert on Belgium but do the Walloons identify more closely with the Netherlands or France? Is their culture more Dutch or more French? If they have been significantly gallicized, they may be for all intents and purposes French.

Psychonaut
03-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Wow, that looks like treachery! Why would a man of Dutch blood ever want to speak French? :eek:

LOL, tons Northern French names are Germanic too. It's hard to tell which ones are Frankish and which ones are Norman, but there's nothing Latin (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1887) about surnames like LeBlanc, Hébert, Landry, LeBrun, etc. Now what would be really nice would be for someone to identify a Frankish modal haplotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_haplotype) so we could accurately gauge just what kind of a demographic impact the Franks made on France.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm no expert on Belgium but do the Walloons identify more closely with the Netherlands or France? Is their culture more Dutch or more French? If they have been significantly gallicized, they may be for all intents and purposes French.
It's neither these days. The Walloon form (or Belgian form) of French has clear Germanic elements - they are both. They are a mixture.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:19 PM
It's neither these days. The Walloon form (or Belgian form) of French has clear Germanic elements - they are both. They are a mixture.

That's interesting. It's cases like these where I think a commission like I suggested earlier would be useful. Where do you think the Walloons belong?

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:21 PM
That's interesting. It's cases like these where I think a commission like I suggested earlier would be useful. Where do you think the Walloons belong?
With us. Where else ? What about going back to a United Kingdom of the Netherlands or a Republic of the United Netherlands.

The French-speaking Swiss are also excellent Swiss citizens and I see not why the Walloons or let's just call them French-speaking Dutch should not be excellent Dutch citizens.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 06:23 PM
Do not mistake Walloon for Belgian French.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:24 PM
Do not mistake Walloon for Belgian French.
Yes there is a slight difference but it mainly overlaps. Belgian French is mainly the Frenchified elite. Walloon is a Germano-romanche language and an ethnicity.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 06:26 PM
Yes there is a slight difference but it mainly overlaps.

I guess it mainly overlaps means that genuine Walloon is getting more and more Frenchified.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:27 PM
I guess it mainly overlaps means that genuine Walloon is getting more and more Frenchified.
Exactly so.. there is a good reason why it should join the Netherlands.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:27 PM
I'm just very cautious about putting together two different groups under one state. I'd very much prefer all distinct nations to be autonomous. I would suggest Walloons who identify more closely with France to join France and the same for the Netherlands. But obviously a related problem is the territory of Wallonia which should probably go to the Netherlands? Which brings me to Luxembourg which also has both Germanic and Latin influences. The national language (Luxembourgish) is a variety of German though so I would suggest unification with Germany?

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:33 PM
I'm just very cautious about putting together two different groups under one state. I'd very much prefer all distinct nations to be autonomous. I would suggest Walloons who identify more closely with France to join France and the same for the Netherlands. But obviously a related problem is the territory of Wallonia which should probably go to the Netherlands? Which brings me to Luxembourg which also has both Germanic and Latin influences. The national language (Luxembourgish) is a variety of German though so I would suggest unification with Germany?
Mir woelle bleiwe wat mir sin ! We want to remain what we are.

Used against the Germans by Luxembourgers during the world wars. They would much rather remain independent.

And no: I suggest that those Walloon elitists that want to join France do so in the most literal way: moving to France themselves.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 06:34 PM
Exactly so.. there is a good reason why it should join the Netherlands.

Hmmm, why, if they don't speak Dutch?


I'm just very cautious about putting together two different groups under one state. I'd very much prefer all distinct nations to be autonomous. I would suggest Walloons who identify more closely with France to join France and the same for the Netherlands. But obviously a related problem is the territory of Wallonia which should probably go to the Netherlands? Which brings me to Luxembourg which also has both Germanic and Latin influences. The national language (Luxembourgish) is a variety of German though so I would suggest unification with Germany?

Walloon is an Oilitan language, close but distinct from French (which is based on Francian). Luxemburgish is an Upper German language from the Moselle Franconian group, again close but distinct from standard German. I'd say it is just too simplist to bump them all into either France or Germany for the sake of simplicity. It sounds to me like when they say Switzerland is German, French and Italian, when in reality it's Alemannic, Arpitan and Lombard...

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:35 PM
I know many groups would much rather remain independent but that doesn't make it right. Liechtenstein, for example, as much as they want to remain independent, doesn't strike me as much different from Switzerland which they already have close ties to. The same could be said of San Marino and Italy, Monaco and France, Andorra and Spain/Catalonia. It just seems to me like more artificial boundaries dividing common peoples.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:37 PM
Hmmm, why, if they don't speak Dutch? They used to. But we have a Frisian minority here too so we can become a tri-lingual country like Switzerland is four languages. We didn't start off as a clear-cut ethnicity anyways but a federation of some very different provinces.




Walloon is an Oilitan language, close but distinct from French (which is based on Francian). Luxemburgish is an Upper German language from the Moselle Franconian group, again close but distinct from standard German. I'd say it is just too simplist to bump them all into either France or Germany for the sake of simplicity. It sounds to me like when they say Switzerland is German, French and Italian, when in reality it's Alemannic, Arpitan and Lombard...
The Netherlands is a very varied country. It would actually be fair to say that there is no such thing as one Netherlands. Ever been to Brabant, Overijssel, Friesland, Holland. They are all different from each other. Flanders too would be different.


I know many groups would much rather remain independent but that doesn't make it right. Liechtenstein, for example, as much as they want to remain independent, doesn't strike me as much different from Switzerland which they already have close ties to. The same could be said of San Marino and Italy, Monaco and France, Andorra and Spain/Catalonia. It just seems to me like more artificial boundaries dividing common peoples.
I am sorry but who are you as a new worlder to judge people's legitimate claims to independence of not ?

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:40 PM
I was born and raised in New Zealand but my father's English and my mother is from Liechtenstein. I visit both countries for at least 2 months a year and all my family lives there. I have strong connections with Europe.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:43 PM
I was born and raised in New Zealand but my father's English and my mother is from Liechtenstein. I visit both countries for at least 2 months a year and all my family lives there. I have strong connections with Europe.
Not strong enough. You're still from the New World and you weren't raised here.

If the Luxembourgians want to remain independent then it is their prerogative. If the Walloons would want to join us or France or become independent then it will be a referendum that decides. However the invitation should be extended.

Nglund
03-19-2011, 06:47 PM
Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.


Most Franks were just Frankicised Gauls. ;)


And the French are Latinized Franks. :p

The Franks were latinized Germanic people, and the French remained latinized gauls since their early Frankish masters...were latinized too.

antonio
03-19-2011, 06:47 PM
Well, let's be honest, the genuine Aragonese ethnicity has almost disappeared, even in the north. Young Aragonese, specially in Zaragón, are nowadays a sort of 'Eastern Castilians'.

Agree. But it's not more diluted than Catalonian one. The difference (for me not specially relevant) is dilutors (and many natives) dont care a shit about essences.:cool:

Pd. Probably you've yet noticed I would love to make a multidimensional little study about that matter. Unfortunatelly I lake the talent to do it without gratuitely offending too many people.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Not strong enough. You're still from the New World and you weren't raised here

I was raised pretty evenly between Europe and New Zealand actually but I wouldn't expect you to know that because you don't know my background.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 06:52 PM
I know many groups would much rather remain independent but that doesn't make it right. Liechtenstein, for example, as much as they want to remain independent, doesn't strike me as much different from Switzerland which they already have close ties to. The same could be said of San Marino and Italy, Monaco and France, Andorra and Spain/Catalonia. It just seems to me like more artificial boundaries dividing common peoples.

Well, you're talking about microstates. Liechtenstein should join Switzerland, Swabia and Alsace and form Allemannia. Monaco should join either Provence in a big Occitania or Liguria in a big Padania, just as San Marino should. And yes, Andorra is nothing but a few valleys from the Catalan county of Urgell who are independent since the 13th century because the ruler from the county of Foix wanted them too. So like children, neither for you nor for me.


They used to. But we have a Frisian minority here too so we can become a tri-lingual country like Switzerland is four languages. We didn't start off as a clear-cut ethnicity anyways but a federation of some very different provinces.

The Netherlands is a very varied country. It would actually be fair to say that there is no such thing as one Netherlands. Ever been to Brabant, Overijssel, Friesland, Holland. They are all different from each other. Flanders too would be different.

Well, I prefer that every distinct ethnic group has its own state so that there are no conflicts or tensions because of differences. The problem comes in what is a distinct ethnic group and what is just 'a variety'. I know that Brabant is different from Holland, but they two speak varieties of Dutch, don't they? While Frisian is a different language, even if close or Dutchified these days. But as I said, political will is important. If peoples who are different want to stay together somehow, as in Switzerland, then so be it.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:53 PM
I was raised pretty evenly between Europe and New Zealand actually but I wouldn't expect you to know that because you don't know my background.
That's fine but still. These borders are not artificial but exist because people wanted to get rid of some decision of some lord or prince or whatever and they became nations in their own right.

Here in Europe we also have very difficult borders as the culture begins to shift sometimes many miles before you even reach the border. A nice example of that would be Brabant where you can see that the culture begins to slowly change into a French one and the deeper you go into Brabant (in what is now Belgium) the more clear it becomes. You have the same thing in the Alsace-Lorraine, in French-speaking Switzerland, in Wallonia etc. When you get into Northern France you feel Flanders, when you get into Wallonia you feel France, Flanders, the Netherlands. It's all mixed up and very complicated.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:55 PM
I know it is very complicated and perhaps I should have stated this better but I think there's a difference between national and regional identity. I am proud to be a Liechtensteiner but I think it would be more suited as a *sub* identity of a Swiss one.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:56 PM
Well, I prefer that every distinct ethnic group has its own state so that there are no conflicts or tensions because of differences. The problem comes in what is a distinct ethnic group and what is just 'a variety'. I know that Brabant is different from Holland, but they two speak varieties of Dutch, don't they? While Frisian is a different language, even if close or Dutchified these days. But as I said, political will is important. If peoples who are different want to stay together somehow, as in Switzerland, then so be it.
It doesn't work that way. That's why I propose a federal state when it comes to a United Netherlands (if the Flemish and Walloons would join us) because the country itself wasn't even born from an ethnic group. The Netherlands was a solely geographical name when the country was born. The people (in the north at least) were a kind of lower Germans.

You can't have nationstates in every country. Switzerland isn't one. The Netherlands is today (for the most - unless you rule out Lower Saxons, Frisians, Flemish (Zeeuws Vlaanderen) and Limburgians (which are a mixture of German, Dutch, Flemish and a bit of French and a group in it's own right) but from our origins we aren't. France isn't a nationstate either: Bretons, Alsatians, Flemish, Luxembourgians etc.


I know it is very complicated and perhaps I should have stated this better but I think there's a difference between national and regional identity. I am proud to be a Liechtensteiner but I think it would be more suited as a *sub* identity of a Swiss one.
If they would choose so in a referendum.

harriet
03-19-2011, 06:58 PM
I think our main disagreement here is that you adhere more closely to democratic principles than I. I'm afraid, I'm more of a technocrat :P

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 06:59 PM
I think our main disagreement here is that you adhere more closely to democratic principles than I. I'm afraid, I'm more of a technocrat :P
I am a democrat pur sang. And so.. are the Swiss btw (I base myself on Swiss principles btw as Switzerland is my model when it comes to my country). :p

harriet
03-19-2011, 07:00 PM
I believe in democracy within the boundaries of a nation-state. I don't think for example that any group of people anywhere should be allowed to form a state, like the East Anglians in England for example.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 07:01 PM
I believe in democracy within the boundaries of a nation or a state. I don't think for example that any group of people anywhere should be allowed to form a state, like the East Anglians in England for example.
If they would choose so then I believe they should. If the Frisians want to leave then so be it. They would just have to live without the subsidies from The Hague and "Brussels" though. :wink

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 07:03 PM
Agree. But it's not more diluted than Catalonian one. The difference (for me not specially relevant) is dilutors (and many natives) dont care a shit about essences.:cool:


Aragon is a complicated territory. Since I strongly associate ethnicity with language, specially in Europe, I only see the real essence of the Aragonese ethnicity preserved in the few valleys that can still speak the native language of Aragon in the north. But still, the people from all of Aragon preserve a clear distinction in their accent/intonation, their folklore and many other traits that make them feel clearly different from Castilians. As it's sometimes said, the essence of Aragon is in its Laws. To complicate things more, you have the eastern strip which speaks Catalan....

The easiest thing to retain a clear Aragonese identity, as well as the Catalano-Aragonese duality of Valencia, would be to bring back to life the whole old Crown, with Catalan and Aragonese as the official languages the way they were in the old Chancillery. But when you think about it, you see it's a bit utopical, mainly because 95% of the Aragonese today speak nothing but Castilian.

Wyn
03-19-2011, 07:03 PM
The Franks were latinized Germanic people, and the French remained latinized gauls since their early Frankish masters...were latinized too.

Pft. Don't you know facetiousness when you see it?! :p

But you're not entirely correct, either way. The Latinisation of the Franks seems to have occurred at a relatively early stage, but the Frankish language (Old Frankish, Old Franconian, whatever) was used as a spoken language into the 7th or 8th century - though I'm not sure of the exact territorial extent of its usage. Regardless, according to Wiki, by the mid-7th century, all those north of Loire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire) had come to be considered 'Franks,' so the assimilation of Gauls into the Frankish ethnicity/Frankish-speaking population had probably been taking place since the 5th century.

Before you start - yes, I know that the Gauls (Gallo-Romans) were already speaking Latin. ;)

Loki
03-19-2011, 07:13 PM
Aragon is a complicated territory. Since I strongly associate ethnicity with language, specially in Europe, I only see the real essence of the Aragonese ethnicity preserved in the few valleys that can still speak the native language of Aragon in the north. But still, the people from all of Aragon preserve a clear distinction in their accent/intonation, their folklore and many other traits that make them feel clearly different from Castilians. As it's sometimes said, the essence of Aragon is in its Laws. To complicate things more, you have the eastern strip which speaks Catalan....

The easiest thing to retain a clear Aragonese identity, as well as the Catalano-Aragonese duality of Valencia, would be to bring back to life the whole old Crown, with Catalan and Aragonese as the official languages the way they were in the old Chancillery. But when you think about it, you see it's a bit utopical, mainly because 95% of the Aragonese today speak nothing but Castilian.

Aragonese are probably as much an ethnicity as the Cornish are.

Psychonaut
03-19-2011, 07:13 PM
Pft. Don't you know facetiousness when you see it?! :p

But you're not entirely correct, either way. The Latinisation of the Franks seems to have occurred at a relatively early stage, but the Frankish language (Old Frankish, Old Franconian, whatever) was used as a spoken language into the 7th or 8th century - though I'm not sure of the exact territorial extent of its usage. Regardless, according to Wiki, by the mid-7th century, all those north of Loire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire) had come to be considered 'Franks,' so the assimilation of Gauls into the Frankish ethnicity/Frankish-speaking population had probably been taking place since the 5th century.

Before you start - yes, I know that the Gauls (Gallo-Romans) were already speaking Latin. ;)

Interestingly enough, Franconian languages are far from extinct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconian_languages). In fact, I hear one spoken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_German_language) every time I overhear my dad's neighbors speaking. ;)

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 07:16 PM
[FONT="Georgia"]
It doesn't work that way. That's why I propose a federal state when it comes to a United Netherlands (if the Flemish and Walloons would join us) because the country itself wasn't even born from an ethnic group. The Netherlands was a solely geographical name when the country was born. The people (in the north at least) were a kind of lower Germans.

You can't have nationstates in every country. Switzerland isn't one. The Netherlands is today (for the most - unless you rule out Lower Saxons, Frisians, Flemish (Zeeuws Vlaanderen) and Limburgians (which are a mixture of German, Dutch, Flemish and a bit of French and a group in it's own right) but from our origins we aren't. France isn't a nationstate either: Bretons, Alsatians, Flemish, Luxembourgians etc.

Why can't you?

Yes, I know that. In Europe there are very few nation states. Iceland is the only one which is 100% a nation state. Others are very close, like Portugal, Albania or Czechia.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 07:17 PM
Why can't you?

Yes, I know that. In Europe there are very few nation states. Iceland is the only one which is 100% a nation state. Others are very close, like Portugal, Albania or Czechia.
Because it doesn't work that way. It never has. Fact of the matter is: it would be nice in theory and if people want to create one (fine with me if done democratically) but unworkable in reality. What would we get in the Netherlands alone: we would get a Netherlands proper which would be a quarter of the country, we would get Saxony stretching out over Germany. We would get a Frisia. We would get a Limburg. We would get a Flanders, we would get a Wallonia. Walloons are no French btw.

You would have to stop at a border around every 25 miles. There is a reason why it is called the Netherlands. Plural.

Turkophagos
03-19-2011, 07:26 PM
I'd divide Germany in 2 parts. A southern, more civised, more woggish, catholic state (Austria, Bavaria and parts of the german Switzerland) and a northern Eurojewish one, from which I'd remove the lands that belong to the Netherlands and Denmark.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 07:26 PM
Aragonese are probably as much an ethnicity as the Cornish are.

In some ways, yes. But the story is quite different in both cases. Aragon can also be seen as the Occitania of Spain. The problem of Aragon too has always been its scarce population for such a large territory.



Because it doesn't work that way. It never has. Fact of the matter is: it would be nice in theory and people want to create one (fine with me if done democratically) but unworkable in reality. What would we get in the Netherlands alone: we would get a Netherlands proper which would be a quarter of the country, we would get Saxony stretching out over Germany. We would get a Frisia. We would get a Limburg. We would get a Flanders, we would get a Wallonia. Walloons are no French btw.

The fact something has never been one way is not a reason.

I don't agree, though. The birth of nationalism is precisely based on ethnic distinction, unlike in other times when it was more something depending on the will of rulers.

Of course, I can understand that people who nowadays feel pretty identified with their state -mainly because they belong to the prevailing ethnicity- are the ones who wouldn't like to see this happening. If you're the owner of your house and your brother's, you don't like to lose a part of your properties, even if your brother has all the right to live on his own.

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 07:28 PM
Well.. so you want to Balkanise all off Europe ? Because that's basically of what you're hinting at !








Of course, I can understand that people who nowadays feel pretty identified with their state -mainly because they belong to the prevailing ethnicity- are the ones who wouldn't like to see this happening. If you're the owner of your house and your brother's, you don't like to lose a part of your properties, even if your brother has all the right to live on his own.
Then you federalise the house and have joined ownership. I am not going to invade my brother's kitchen to tell him what to do and as a matter of fact it was quite normal in parts of the country here to "share the house" between several generations. Something that is coming back now in the North as some party here came up with the idea of allowing farmers to add a house for their ageing parent on their land.

In the same way a country can work. I am from Utrecht and The Hague should not tell me what to do: I have my municipality for that. But this should not mean that my province should leave the Netherlands. That's ridiculous even.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 07:37 PM
Well.. so you want to Balkanise all off Europe ? Because that's basically of what you're hinting at !

Then you federalise the house and have joined ownership. I am not going to invade my brother's kitchen to tell him what to do.

I wouldn't be against that, if that really worked. But the reality is that federations are not easy when there are constant conflicts in the house. Supporting federalism in many present states is a very naïve thing, because some states are simply stuck and their people wouldn't accept all the nations within it on a same level.

Besides, what Balkanization are you speaking about, when we'd all be part of the European Union, after all?

The Lawspeaker
03-19-2011, 07:38 PM
Besides, what Balkanization are you speaking about, when we'd all be part of the European Union, after all?
No we wouldn't. It would be each man for himself.

harriet
03-19-2011, 07:42 PM
I think as we move towards decentralization and self-sufficiency in areas like energy and resources, a "Europe of nation-states" will be much more viable. Perhaps it's not now because governments are too busy squabbling over resources instead of making do with what's rightfully theirs.

Comte Arnau
03-19-2011, 07:50 PM
No we wouldn't. It would be each man for himself.

Seriously, how many in the Netherlands claim for independence the way you see it in the UK or Spain? Because I'd say only the Frisians have some visibility. At least I'm not aware of relevant associations or parties claiming for the independence of the Saxon-speaking areas or of Limburg, but I might be just poorly informed.

anonymaus
03-19-2011, 07:56 PM
I think as we move towards decentralization and self-sufficiency in areas like energy and resources, a "Europe of nation-states" will be much more viable. Perhaps it's not now because governments are too busy squabbling over resources instead of making do with what's rightfully theirs.

The bigger issue there is twofold:

1) Europeans must decide that buying and selling natural resources on an open market is the best way forward;

which is dependent on 2) Europeans must stop fighting the battles of years, decades, centuries past and move forward to mutual benefit of all.

Internal ethnic and cultural squabbles aren't the concern of a pan-European federal body, and ANY attempt to redress such concerns is doomed to fail; it will not happen in Europe, nor the Levant, nor elsewhere.

harriet
03-19-2011, 07:59 PM
The bigger issue there is twofold:

1) Europeans must decide that buying and selling natural resources on an open market is the best way forward;

which is dependent on 2) Europeans must stop fighting the battles of years, decades, centuries past and move forward to mutual benefit of all.

Internal ethnic and cultural squabbles aren't the concern of a pan-European federal body, and ANY attempt to redress such concerns is doomed to fail; it will not happen in Europe, nor the Levant, nor elsewhere.

I agree that is unlikely.

I don't actually support a pan-European body of any kind but support upholding national sovereignty. A Europe (the continent) composed of autonomous and largely self-sufficient nation-states would be possible I think.

Nglund
03-19-2011, 09:43 PM
But you're not entirely correct, either way. The Latinisation of the Franks seems to have occurred at a relatively early stage, but the Frankish language (Old Frankish, Old Franconian, whatever) was used as a spoken language into the 7th or 8th century - though I'm not sure of the exact territorial extent of its usage. Regardless, according to Wiki, by the mid-7th century, all those north of Loire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire) had come to be considered 'Franks,' so the assimilation of Gauls into the Frankish ethnicity/Frankish-speaking population had probably been taking place since the 5th century.

You're right, though the final outcome was a complete latinisation in Old Frankish dialects. The Franks kept the speech through the Dark Ages due to small settling of Frankish free men in Gaul, Frankish presence was mainly an elite-focused one: I1 and G2 haplogroups, being commonly associated with Germanics, reach 10-15% in France. That explains the influence of latin, this influence spread by the latin-speaking elite was easily established in the former Gallo-Roman population. But the further we go up North, the more 'Germanic'/'Frankish' influence predominates (as I mentionned above, this is the result of early and stronger Frankish [and Alemannic] presence and settling from neighbouring lands to Northern France).

anonymaus
03-19-2011, 10:10 PM
I agree that is unlikely.

I don't actually support a pan-European body of any kind but support upholding national sovereignty. A Europe (the continent) composed of autonomous and largely self-sufficient nation-states would be possible I think.

Indeed; body or not, anything short of what I listed will see Europe neck deep in the shit for another decade or ten. For such an ancient part of the world, Europe really does need to grow up and see to its mutual interest.

Svanhild
03-20-2011, 01:51 AM
I'd divide Germany in 2 parts. A southern, more civised, more woggish, catholic state (Austria, Bavaria and parts of the german Switzerland) and a northern Eurojewish one, from which I'd remove the lands that belong to the Netherlands and Denmark.
I'd divide Greece in 4 parts: One part for the people without money, one part for the people with even more debts, one part for the Athens building site and the Fakelaki fans and an other small part for a new Sparta where the handful of valuable Greeks can live in a protected village to work off the debts of their country over the next 500 generations. :wink

CelticTemplar
03-20-2011, 02:48 AM
Europeans to the left, Arabs to the right.

*Arabs step to Poland*

Ok now down.

*Arabs step to Serbia*

No, more down.

*Arabs step to Greece*

Ok now to the Right more.

*Arabs step to Turkey*

*European man shuts the door and sits down to a nice cold beer.

poiuytrewq0987
03-20-2011, 03:04 AM
I'd divide Greece in 4 parts: One part for the people without money, one part for the people with even more debts, one part for the Athens building site and the Fakelaki fans and an other small part for a new Sparta where the handful of valuable Greeks can live in a protected village to work off the debts of their country over the next 500 generations. :wink

If I had to divide Germany I'd divide it into two parts. The one part would be filled with German men slaving for us; the other would be filled with women whose purpose is to breed with and entertain Slavic men.

Albion
03-21-2011, 11:53 AM
Wouldn't Brittany and Normandy have some ethnic ties to the British Isles?

Yes, I thought about this but then I concluded that the ties to France must be stronger.


If I were to redraw this map, I would give the Bretons, Cornwallers, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish their own Celtia Magna, while the English stay with the other Germanic nations.

Some sort of Celtic Union or federation might be interesting but I think most of them would prefer independent countries.


The Basque Country and Catalonia-Valencia would be in the red zone, FYI.

How??? I know both would be rather rich in terms of GDP per capita, but would they really rank up at the top with large overall GDP as with Germany, France, UK, Italy, Russia and Spain / Castille??
For example Norway is oil rich and its citizens are some of the richest in Europe but taken as a whole economy it is smaller than the larger economies of Europe.


It's somewhat bizarre to see Aragon so exclusively attached to Castille.

I had the impression that only certain parts of it were Catalan today, despite the flag. The borders aren't 100% acurate but it would include parts of Aragon too.


Pan this that and the other.

The pipes play such sweet music.


Yes, Pan-Germanic, Pan-Slavic or Pan-Romance countries have been proposed before but I doubt they'd work in most cases.


Walloons are no French. They are Frenchified Dutch.


Frenchified Belgics (Celto-Germanics) was always my opinion.


Indeed, they became slowly but surely more Francophone. A process stimulated during different French occupations of the South. Many cities in Wallonia, for example, originally had Dutch/Germanic names.

The problem is that they're walloons now, could you really "re-Dutchifiy" them or simply reintergrate them within the Netherlands now that they're basically a different people?
Wouldn't that be a bit like Norway telling the MacDonalds of the Hebrides and the rest of the Scotticized Norwegians to turn back to being Norwegian?


And the French are Latinized Franks

Latinezed Gauls (Celts) with some Frankish imput.

The Lawspeaker
03-21-2011, 11:58 AM
The problem is that they're walloons now, could you really "re-Dutchifiy" them or simply reintergrate them within the Netherlands now that they're basically a different people?
Wouldn't that be a bit like Norway telling the MacDonalds of the Hebrides and the rest of the Scotticized Norwegians to turn back to being Norwegian?



They will just be integrated. Compare it to the Swiss French = with full political rights, a partner amongst the partners. A lot of them also speak (at least some) Flemish as they have to learn it in school.

It will just be a Rweyåme Uni des Bas Payis (Walloon), Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden (United Kingdom of the Netherlands) if it would remain a slightly federalised constitutional monarchy (maybe taking some ideas from the U.K) otherwise it would become a confederal republic like Switzerland.

And when it comes to being a multi-lingual state: well.. in a sense we already are without being recognised as such as Frisian is the secondary language and there are movements for the recognition of Drentish (or Lower Saxon in general) and Limburgish.

Albion
03-21-2011, 12:12 PM
I am sorry but who are you as a new worlder to judge people's legitimate claims to independence of not ?


What she's saying is that there's some pointless countries which don't make sense, which could be united with their ethnic kin but don't - usually because they're a tax haven and don't want to loose that status.
Look at Guernsey and Jersey and ask yourself why they don't form one state, why they haven't become one bailiwick.


If the Luxembourgians want to remain independent then it is their prerogative. If the Walloons would want to join us or France or become independent then it will be a referendum that decides. However the invitation should be extended.


The problem is we don't want a load of micronations based around non-ethnicities, made-up ethnicities such as "lichtensteiner" when quite clearly they are Swisss Germans who weren't mopped up into either Switzerland or Austria because of the whims of the Lichtenstein family wanting to hold a royal title!

Luxembourgers are the same, they're just a regional grouping of the bloody Germans just as a "Northerner" in England is just an Englishman from the North - regional differences still remain but it is just that, small differences based on distances and territory from the rest of the ethnicity.


Indeed; body or not, anything short of what I listed will see Europe neck deep in the shit for another decade or ten. For such an ancient part of the world, Europe really does need to grow up and see to its mutual interest.

Says the colonial ruggrats. :p

http://www.thecartoonpictures.com/data/media/194/Rugrats_group.JPG


They will just be integrated. Compare it to the Swiss French = with full political rights, a partner amongst the partners. A lot of them also speak (at least some) Flemish as they have to learn it in school.

It will just be a Rweyåme Uni des Bas Payis (Walloon), Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden (United Kingdom of the Netherlands) if it would remain a slightly federalised constitutional monarchy (maybe taking some ideas from the U.K) otherwise it would become a confederal republic like Switzerland.

inter-ethnic federations tend to be a mess, look at Britain and you see the cracks appearing as the Scots and English want out. How long until the Walloons see that?
And they're Frenchified and now a different people from the Dutch whilst still retaining links to them. I think they'd be better as part of France proper, same with the Swiss French.

The Lawspeaker
03-21-2011, 12:34 PM
What she's saying is that there's some pointless countries which don't make sense, which could be united with their ethnic kin but don't - usually because they're a tax haven and don't want to loose that status.
Look at Guernsey and Jersey and ask yourself why they don't form one state, why they haven't become one bailiwick.

No nation is pointless. A nation is a nation because people feel themselves one.



The problem is we don't want a load of micronations based around non-ethnicities, made-up ethnicities such as "lichtensteiner" when quite clearly they are Swisss Germans who weren't mopped up into either Switzerland or Austria because of the whims of the Lichtenstein family wanting to hold a royal title!
Maybe so.. but the Liechtensteiners hold them in very high esteem and if they want to remain independent then bless them.



Luxembourgers are the same, they're just a regional grouping of the bloody Germans just as a "Northerner" in England is just an Englishman from the North - regional differences still remain but it is just that, small differences based on distances and territory from the rest of the ethnicity.

TjqH6l1ZOmg
Is this German ?
The Luxembourgians were very clear about any form of adhesion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_w%C3%ABlle_bleiwe_wat_mir_sinn) to Germany: We want to remain who we are !

Mir welle jo keng Preise gin,
Mir welle bleiwe wat mir sin!

We don't want to become Germans.
We just want to be who we are.




inter-ethnic federations tend to be a mess, look at Britain and you see the cracks appearing as the Scots and English want out. How long until the Walloons see that?
And they're Frenchified and now a different people from the Dutch whilst still retaining links to them. I think they'd be better as part of France proper, same with the Swiss French.
If so they would have asked for adhesion but they haven't. As a matter of fact the Swiss French don't seem to like the French all that much and the same seems to go for the Dutch French (Walloons). Switzerland is not a mess.. as a matter of fact it is one of the most solid nations on earth.

Belgium is just a very complicated issue with French imperialism, class struggle (the upper class spoke French and the lower class Flemish or Walloon), vested interest and corruption all playing it's part.

The Lawspeaker
03-21-2011, 03:48 PM
And when it comes to Belgium: let us compare the Netherlands and Belgium to a house in which two brothers lived side by side. One day we ended up in a fight, which was caused by the mistakes of one of the brothers and the meddling of the neighbour that tried to convince the younger brother that he was a mere bastard sibling , the two brothers separated and the house became divided into two wings. The older brother still has the table ready and waiting for his younger brother to join but he will not drag him into his house again. Instead he waited and continues to wait for his brother to return home.

Bari
03-22-2011, 12:37 AM
http://www.selimaj.com/images/hartat/harta-1.jpg

Peyrol
03-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Good map. Well thought out! :wink You're the first Italian I meet who would give back Südtirol to Austria/Germany?

Oh, if Italy had back all the territories that would be granted by the History (Corsica, Savoia, Nizza, Istria, southern Schwitzerland, ecc...which I showed in the map), the entire province of Bolzano could easily switch to "Großdeutschland" (but not Trento):D


The Basque Country isn't big enough.

Credo che sarebbe sufficiente.:cool:

Peyrol
03-22-2011, 12:36 PM
I know many groups would much rather remain independent but that doesn't make it right. Liechtenstein, for example, as much as they want to remain independent, doesn't strike me as much different from Switzerland which they already have close ties to. The same could be said of San Marino and Italy, Monaco and France, Andorra and Spain/Catalonia. It just seems to me like more artificial boundaries dividing common peoples.

Wait a minute ... the Monegasque language is virtually identical to genoan, an italian dialect.
At most, Monaco should belong to Italy. But they have a long history, and they can live independently (also for economical reasons...).

San Marino is independent from 331 A.D., from a time when the Empire had not yet fallen. I think they have every right to remain independent.

poiuytrewq0987
03-22-2011, 01:04 PM
Mussolini's wet dream:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5905/italianempire1.png

harriet
03-26-2011, 09:40 AM
True, Monegasque is a dialect of Ligurian - I apologize. It's just whenever I've visited, I always spoke French ;)
San Marino and Monaco may be economically viable as independent nations but so may lots of regions. My point is that their people and their cultures are the same as in those regions which they border. I'm not 100% clued-up on all of the details but I'd like to see the borders of nations and states coincide.

Comte Arnau
03-26-2011, 12:14 PM
Wait a minute ... the Monegasque language is virtually identical to genoan, an italian dialect.

That is a bit demagogical. You are right in that Monegasque is a dialect of Genoese (although the area is transitional to Provençal). But Genoese is a dialect of Padanese, strictly speaking from a linguistic point of view. Not a dialect of central Italian, on which the standard is based. If we are considering this linguistically and not politically or historically, the La Spezia-Rimini line (or Massa-Senigallia line to be more accurate) is a border that can't be disregarded.

Peyrol
03-26-2011, 12:31 PM
That is a bit demagogical. You are right in that Monegasque is a dialect of Genoese (although the area is transitional to Provençal). But Genoese is a dialect of Padanese, strictly speaking from a linguistic point of view. Not a dialect of central Italian, on which the standard is based. If we are considering this linguistically and not politically or historically, the La Spezia-Rimini line (or Massa-Senigallia line to be more accurate) is a border that can't be disregarded.

La Spezia-Rimini line is yet to be demonstrated. And "Padania" is only a geographical terminology, not cultural. From a piemonteis (like me) and a venetian there are the same differences that a venetian had with a lucanian or a latial.
We are all italian, the times of divisions are ended.

There are at least three decades that the world's Linguists call from Bossi, Calderoli and Miglio a real evidence of their absurd theories about "Terroni" and "Neocelti", and not a simple neo-pagan rituals...


The only good thing of the Northern League are election posters
http://impressionidisettembre.myblog.it/images/lega%20nord.jpg
http://www.giovaniliguri.leganord.org/manifestoAMA_LA_TUA_TERRA_A4.jpg

Peyrol
03-26-2011, 12:45 PM
Mussolini's wet dream:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5905/italianempire1.png

Not exactly....(Green and olive-green territories)

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9660/italyaxisvictory.png (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/italyaxisvictory.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

..and also...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Piano_Nuovo_Impero_italiano_.jpg

Comte Arnau
03-26-2011, 01:16 PM
Whatever. I said I was just speaking from a strictly linguistic POV.

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 01:22 PM
Latvia+Lithuania+East Prussia unites in Baltic Union with all historical Baltic lands.
You may think that Prussia is German, but its not. Bastard crusaders slaughtered real Prussians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians) and took their name. +Latvia gets back Russian occupied Abrene (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/5/53/Jaunlatgale.jpg) region.

Estonia gets back its russian occupied territories + Ingria.
Finland gets back Karelia and other historical Finnic territories.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5623/europepoliticalmap.gif

The Lawspeaker
03-26-2011, 01:23 PM
Nope. Prussia becomes German.

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 01:25 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Prussian_clans_13th_century.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg
http://www.laugallen.com/baltic.tribe.map-orig.png

The Lawspeaker
03-26-2011, 01:37 PM
Looks like the Baltic will have to be given back to the Russki's then :)

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 01:39 PM
LOL wat?:eyes

The Ripper
03-26-2011, 01:49 PM
Viva Herkus Monte! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herkus_Monte)

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 01:54 PM
Considering Livonians I made some changes.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3968/mapofbaltic.gif



Prussians showing german bastard christian dogs their place
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Adalb.jpg

Wyn
03-26-2011, 02:03 PM
In any world that hadn't gone completely mad, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would form one state - Magna Finnia.

May the blood of the Finnics be reunited and flow in the same vessel for evermore.

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 02:06 PM
We speak completely languages.
But Balto-Scandia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltoscandia) seems good idea, a union.

Bard
03-26-2011, 02:09 PM
We speak completely languages.
But Balto-Scandia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltoscandia) seems good idea, a union.

Is there any kind of grudge between baltic states and finland or you are in good terms?

Wyn
03-26-2011, 02:19 PM
We speak completely languages.
But Balto-Scandia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltoscandia) seems good idea, a union.

I wasn't serious. It'd be a terrible idea, and the Finns wouldn't like it. ;) I actually support an Estono-Latvian union. :cool:

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 02:22 PM
Waiting for Karl....

poiuytrewq0987
03-26-2011, 02:24 PM
Pssh, no Baltic army will be ever able to take Sankt Petersburg from the Russians. It's really comical to see it suggested.

Svanhild
03-26-2011, 03:56 PM
Latvia+Lithuania+East Prussia unites in Baltic Union with all historical Baltic lands.
You may think that Prussia is German, but its not. Bastard crusaders slaughtered real Prussians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians) and took their name.
No, Prussia was German territory and has to be restored.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Deutsches_Reich_1871-1918++.gif

+Austria.

harriet
03-26-2011, 04:37 PM
The comment about St Petersburg is interesting. I do think the unification of nations' and states' borders is possible but I do think it will be difficult in cases like these. Obviously, St Petersburg is an important city to the Russians, just like Constantinople (or Istanbul as they call it...) is to the Turks. I would hope that the Russians and the Turks would recognize that these areas of land were never really theirs to take in the first place and that it's time to give them back.

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 04:55 PM
No, Prussia was German territory and has to be restored.

It was not. You killed the real Prussians and took their name. And don't pretend you didn't.


East Prussia enclosed the bulk of the ancestral lands of the Baltic Old Prussians. During the 13th century, the native Prussians were conquered by the crusading Teutonic Knights. The indigenous Balts who survived the conquest were gradually converted to Christianity. Because of Germanization and colonisation over the following centuries, Germans became the dominant ethnic group, while Poles and Lithuanians formed minorities. From the 13th century, East Prussia was part of the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights, which became the Duchy of Prussia in 1525.[2] The Old Prussian language had become extinct by the 17th or early 18th century.[3]

harriet
03-26-2011, 04:58 PM
I thought there was a Baltic Prussia AND a German Prussia (which just took its name from the Baltic region)?

anonymaus
03-26-2011, 05:07 PM
It was not. You killed the real Prussians and took their name. And don't pretend you didn't.

She looks pretty good for 800 years of age.

Peerkons
03-26-2011, 05:11 PM
It was meant you (germans)

Ivanushka-supertzar
03-26-2011, 05:18 PM
I would hope that the Russians and the Turks would recognize that these areas of land were never really theirs to take in the first place and that it's time to give them back.

It's a piece of swamp actually, not land. Only insane lunatic would want to conquer Saint-Pete since weather conditions here is horrible.
Remember remember the day of 1812!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rH_eOzgdpMo/TVK5lSgYjGI/AAAAAAAABRE/ZGszE3O9AQg/s1600/napoleon%2Bmoscow.jpg

poiuytrewq0987
03-26-2011, 08:13 PM
No, Prussia was German territory and has to be restored.



+Austria.

'Tis pointless, Prussia becoming German again is only a dream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast#Demographics) today. 800,000 Slavs live in Kaliningrad Oblast whereas only 8,000 Germans live there today.


It was not. You killed the real Prussians and took their name. And don't pretend you didn't.

Who cares, those Prussians didn't even leave anything behind and thus they are only a memory.

Sarmata
03-26-2011, 09:10 PM
No, Prussia was German territory and has to be restored.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Deutsches_Reich_1871-1918++.gif

+Austria.

Many post ago you wrote about your trip to Poland...and about that how natives were not so nice for You and your partner(or friend as I remember). You visited Poland only to see "cultural Germanic heritage":rolleyes:...I think about those natives now...it looks like Poles have good nose for nazis...Don't you think?;)

Sarmata
03-26-2011, 09:26 PM
Who cares, those Prussians didn't even leave anything behind and thus they are only a memory.

Me! And also those guys:)

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zxnqew.gif

poiuytrewq0987
03-26-2011, 11:47 PM
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3742/newbalkans1.png

Guapo
03-26-2011, 11:50 PM
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3742/newbalkans1.png

Crete should be independent.

Turkophagos
03-27-2011, 01:43 AM
Crete should be independent.

Why?


Cretans were independent and fought for union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_State

Guapo
03-27-2011, 02:09 AM
Why?


Cretans were independent and fought for union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_State

Why? Because they're badasses :cool:

IZqIbOIHOF8
OU2m-Z2dj_8

Peerkons
03-27-2011, 11:27 AM
The last song sounds good.

Falkata
03-27-2011, 12:21 PM
http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/800px-Espaa-locsvg.png

Blue: Kingdom of Galicia-Lusitania

Purple: Kingdom of Asturias-Leon

Red: Kingdom of Castilla

Green: Iberian portion of the Basque Republic

Orange: Iberian Portion of the Catalonian-Occitanian Federation

I'll post the rest of Europe later.


It´s true that we´re somehow connected and related with north Portugal. But why somebody from Coruña should feel close to somebody from Algarve? :confused:
Should we feel connected with people from Sao Paolo too?

Peyrol
03-27-2011, 12:57 PM
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3742/newbalkans1.png

uahahahaha Friuli, Venezia and Carso to Slovenia? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The Ripper
03-27-2011, 01:36 PM
It's a piece of swamp actually, not land. Only insane lunatic would want to conquer Saint-Pete since weather conditions here is horrible.
Remember remember the day of 1812!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rH_eOzgdpMo/TVK5lSgYjGI/AAAAAAAABRE/ZGszE3O9AQg/s1600/napoleon%2Bmoscow.jpg

Meh. Hadn't the Finnish political leadership chickened out in 1919, the Bolshevik menace would have been banished from Petrograd with Finnish bayonets.

And "horrible weather conditions" is a relative concept. :D


The Commander of the Russian White's Northern Front, General Judenich, stayed in Helsinki during the spring of 1919 and recruited Russian officers who had remained in Finland into his forces. He also tried to persuade the Finnish government to attack and occupy St. Petersburg. In June he explained to Mannerheim, that Russia was in return prepared to recognize Finnish independence, organize a referendum in Eastern Karelia and allow Cultural Autonomy to Ingria. Judenich promised to hand down the leadership of the operation to Mannerheim. The Finnish Administrator of the State truly possessed the Keys to World History in his hands at this moment in time.

The majority of the new Parliament (Eduskunta) also supported the annexation of Eastern Karelia to Finland, but the support for the occupation of St. Petersburg came mainly from the Activists. They realized, that the operation would have to be initiated before the eduskunta would have time to elect a president of the republic. The Activists had reason to fear that a centre-led Finland would elect Ståhlberg for president, who would give up Eastern Karelia, Petsamo and the aiding of kindred peoples. The Activists could only hope that before this Mannerheim would in his position as Administrator of the State postpone the implementation of the republican form of government and perhaps even break up the parliament all together and order for new elections to be held. Meanwhile Finland would strike fast towards St. Petersburg and force out the Bolsheviks. This, in brief, was the plan as had been agreed on in secret negotiations between the inner circle of the Activist movement in the spring of 1919. One of leading figures of the Activists, Kai Donner, presented the plan to Mannerheim, who was known to the Activists by the pseudonym "Andersson".

Mannerheim accepted the Activists' plan in principle but proposed that certain requirements had to be met: they would have to secure the support of the Western powers as well as that of the National Coalition Party. This turned out to be the deciding issue: Paasikivi, Ingman and other leading National Coalitionists turned the plan down immediatly. Also, the promises of English and French support remained vague and uncertain. Mannerheim perceived that the "Activist Project" was no longer realistically possible. He ratified the new form of government on 17.07.1919.

-The Political History of Finland 1809-2009.