"The Most Irish Town in America?"

[Smaland]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/tile/2011/0316/1224292257518_7.jpg
Brendan McDonough in Butte, MT. Image posted in The Irish Times.


High in the US Rockies, the one-time mining town of Butte, Montana – Irish-American stronghold and home town of Evel Knievel – is revving up for its annual St Patrick’s Day parade, celebrating links with Cavan, Cork, Kerry and Mayo, writes FRANCIS CURRAN

THEY SAY that Butte, Montana, has the largest St Patrick’s Day parade in the Rockies, but I didn’t know whether it was going to be far removed from the reality of Ireland, a sort of disconnected theme parade. Was the Irishness of the participants merely an imaginary notion? Did they have any real contemporary connection, any awareness of what was going on in Ireland?

Full story (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2011/0316/1224292257518.html)

[Cato]

My hometown has an Irish neighborhood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipperary_Hill

Well, it's more than Irish these days, but you get the idea. Too bad Tipp Hill borders the west side of town, which is basically all blacks and other minorities. :grumpy:

[Cato]

An antecdote about Tipp Hill, off topic, but I thought it was funny when I read it in the Wikipedia article. :lol:

When the city first installed traffic signal lights in 1925, manufactured by Crouse-Hinds Company of Syracuse, they placed one at a major intersection on Tipperary Hill at the corner of Tompkins Street and Milton Avenue. This was the main business district of the area.

The "Green-on-Top" or "Red-on-Bottom" Traffic LightLocal Irish youths, incensed that anyone would dare to put the "British" red above the "Irish" green, threw stones at the signal and broke the red light. The city replaced it, but the Irish soon threw more stones and broke the replacement.

John "Huckle" Ryan, then alderman of the Tipperary Hill section, requested that Tipperary Hill's first traffic signal be hung with the green above the red in deference to its Irish residents. This was done, but soon the State of New York stepped in with regulations. City officials reversed the colors. This despite assurances from local residents that what they were doing was "against nature and would never stand the test of time."

Once again, the red topped the green and officials noted that the signal light began to fail on a regular basis. The local press reported it "was the work of the Little People." Officials doubted this theory, but still were reported to have commented that the marksmanship of those responsible for shattering each red light they installed was "nothing short of miraculous." As fast as a red lens was replaced, it disintegrated.

A contingent of residents went to the city fathers including local businessmen John R. O'Reilley, Dinty Gilmartin, Jim Kernan, Dr. Raymond Devine, and Isadore Wichman. They were members of a group called Tipperary Hill Protective Association.

On March 17, 1928, Commissioner Bradley handled the meeting with the Tipp Hill residents. It was explained to him carefully, "Directing traffic's one thing, but an insult's another, and a thing like that on a day like this is an insult." When the commissioner did not quite get the point, it was explained to him carefully, "It's that light at Tompkins and Milton. If you don't do something about it at once, you won't have a light there tonight."

When the commissioner questioned what the problem with the light was, he was told, "Why, what do you think is the matter with it? Here it is St. Patrick's Day and darned if that light isn't flashing; first green, which is all right, and then orange, and then red. It's got to stop. I want to tell you this and I want you to get it straight and don't get excited about it. That light isn't going to stand there all day flashing its red and orange all over Tipperary Hill. Not while there's any stones on the hill."

The city leaders relented, to a point, and green was given the place of honor, however, they would not remove the traffic signal despite the members request. To this day, the green light is still above the red.

Throughout the years, the local youths are remembered fondly by Tipp Hill residents as the Stonethrower's.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/SyracuseTipperaryLight2.jpg

[Cato]

You know I've through Tipp Hill so many times, I've never even noticed the traffic lights are different. :lol:

[Gálvez]

If with America you also include Canada, then it's Newfoundland:

Newfoundland: The Most Irish Place Outside of Ireland (http://ics.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=ids&folder=158&paper=159)

[Cato]

Irish-Americans is one of the largest ethnic groups in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American

The population of Irish-descended Americans is probably much higher given that there're many Americans who've got Irish ancestry who don't identify with Ireland (like me; I just call myself English/Anglo).

[Jack B]

Irish-Americans is one of the largest ethnic groups in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American

The population of Irish-descended Americans is probably much higher given that there're many Americans who've got Irish ancestry who don't identify with Ireland (like me; I just call myself English/Anglo).

There was a programme on tv here not long ago which stated the exact opposite, that perhaps more than half of those claiming Catholic Irish ancestry in the States are in fact of Protestant Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots descent, they went into some detail and used some famous examples. Either way there was obviously a significant influence, as shown by some of the names above


John R. O'Reilley, Dinty Gilmartin, Jim Kernan, Dr. Raymond Devine, and Isadore Wichman.

Aside from Isador Wichman they all sound like everyday names here, even have a Dinty :)

[Cato]

There was a programme on tv here not long ago which stated the exact opposite, that perhaps more than half of those claiming Catholic Irish ancestry in the States are in fact of Protestant Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots descent, they went into some detail and used some famous examples.

As far as I know I don't have any Catholics in the family tree, so you might be right. :confused:

[Nglund]

The population of Irish-descended Americans is probably much higher given that there're many Americans who've got Irish ancestry who don't identify with Ireland (like me; I just call myself English/Anglo).

The same applies to English Americans.
I say...


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=241&pictureid=1721

We can't have you anyway, feck tha' :swl!!!

[Adalwolf]

Montana as a whole seems to have a significant Irish population.

[The Lawspeaker]

Maybe it would be better to move this thread to the U.S.A-section. Irish Americans a.k.a Plastic Paddies are no real Irish.

[Joe McCarthy]

Maybe it would be better to move this thread to the U.S.A-section. Irish Americans a.k.a Plastic Paddies are no real Irish.

If you said this to a Boston Irish IRA supporter, you'd get a punch in the nose. They're among the most political of Irishmen, and have done more to help Irish nationalism than most Irishmen in Ireland - not that I'm praising them for it.

[The Lawspeaker]

If you said this to a Boston Irish IRA supporter, you'd get a punch in the nose. They're among the most political of Irishmen, and have done more to help Irish nationalism than most Irishmen in Ireland - not that I'm praising them for it.
Still. I doubt whether many Irish would consider them as such (they are called "Plastic Paddies" for a reason and if they would still Irish then they are hyphenated Americans AND Plastic Paddies) and frankly your ideas in general don't really interest me in the slightest.

Separation: Europe/America. Now.

[Mordid]

Irish-Americans is one of the largest ethnic groups in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American

The population of Irish-descended Americans is probably much higher given that there're many Americans who've got Irish ancestry who don't identify with Ireland (like me; I just call myself English/Anglo).

I thought German-Americans is one of the largest ethnic groups in the U.S. :confused:

[Cato]

I thought German-Americans is one of the largest ethnic groups in the U.S. :confused:

It is.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Still. I doubt whether many Irish would consider them as such (they are called "Plastic Paddies" for a reason and if they would still Irish then they are hyphenated Americans AND Plastic Paddies) and frankly your ideas in general don't really interest me in the slightest.

Separation: Europe/America. Now.


Mellow out dude.

[Adalwolf]

Still. I doubt whether many Irish would consider them as such (they are called "Plastic Paddies" for a reason and if they would still Irish then they are hyphenated Americans AND Plastic Paddies) and frankly your ideas in general don't really interest me in the slightest.

Separation: Europe/America. Now.


Plastic paddies or not, I am sure Ireland would be glad to be getting an influx of Irish-Americans, rather than all of the Somalians as of late. Phenotypic wise, they're no less Irish than the inhabitants that chose to stay.

[The Lawspeaker]

Mellow out dude.
Because you don't want to be reminded that your grandchild would never be seen as a Serb/Macedonian which ever you may be ?

Joe may claim some Dutch or English ancestry but I don't think that any of the Dutch here will consider him to be Dutch (I know I don't) - nor is it likely that English will see him as one of their own.

This shouldn't be in the Irish section. Have someone take it to the American section where it belongs.



Plastic paddies or not, I am sure Ireland would be glad to be getting an influx of Irish-Americans, rather than all of the Somalians as of late. Phenotypic wise, they're no less Irish than the inhabitants that chose to stay.

I think that they would prefer neither one of them. No one cares about phenotypes. Foreign is foreign and right now they can't even provide work for their own population.

[Adalwolf]

Civis, you just have this enormous superiority complex over colonials. It is sad really because all this conflict does is cause division between an already receding race. Exactly what the Globalists in fact, want.

[Joe McCarthy]

IIRC Ireland is one of the European countries that has 'right of return' for foreign co-ethnics, so Irish-Americans can move there, I believe.

[The Lawspeaker]

Civis, you just have this enormous superiority complex over colonials. It is sad really because all this conflict does is cause division between an already receding race. Exactly what the Globalists in fact, want.
LOL. While it were those colonials that brought those same ideas to us. And no: I have no problems with colonials as people (some of my best friends are indeed colonials - but it's ignorant lot that I can't stand to which I count some of the colonial participants in this thread and forum) - but it's their culture I want to keep very far away from me.

And I couldn't give a toss about "white unity" - it's European unity I believe in. You guys fucked off from Europe because it was easy to go - now stay out of our goddamn affairs.

Keeping Europe European means - no Islam, no Judaism, no Africa, no China, no Japan, no India, no sudaca -- NO AMERICA.

[The Lawspeaker]

IIRC Ireland is one of the European countries that has 'right of return' for foreign co-ethnics, so Irish-Americans can move there, I believe.
As always: government policies are usually at odds with reality.

[Baron Samedi]

LOL. While it were those colonials that brought those same ideas to us. And no: I have no problems with colonials as people (some of my best friends are indeed colonials - but it's ignorant lot that I can't stand to which I count some of the colonial participants in this thread and forum) - but it's their culture I want to keep very far away from me.

And I couldn't give a toss about "white unity" - it's European unity I believe in. You guys fucked off from Europe because it was easy to go - now stay out of our goddamn affairs.

Keeping Europe European means - no Islam, no Judaism, no Africa, no China, no Japan, no India, no sudaca -- NO AMERICA.

So if this thread is moved to the USA section, will you stop fucking trolling it?

Your anti-colonial mentality is sickening Civis.... You can't label me and the rest of us "dumbass 'Muricans" for things that our ancestors did a long time ago.....

I like you dude, you're and intelligent guy and all... But c'mon this kinda attitude has to stop.

[The Lawspeaker]

It will stop when your dumbass Murrican countrymen will stop to troll peoples from Europe and demand a say in their affairs at each and every opportunity. Move it to the U.S.A section.

[Baron Samedi]

It will stop when your dumbass Murrican countrymen will stop to troll peoples from Europe and demand a say in their affairs at each and every opportunity. Move it to the U.S.A section.

Yeah, because I TOTALLY control them, and the moderators of this board.

Calm dude, dude. This thread doesn't represent Europe in any way... It's just for discussion.

You almost make it sound like a territory war at times.

[Baron Samedi]

But I will say this, lads!

At least he's not calling us IRISH NIGGERS!

Now that would just be mean.....

[The Lawspeaker]

Maybe it is because some damn yankees keep telling us how to run our countries and I am thoroughly sick of it. Americans can't even run their own country, hell.. not even their own businesses and yet you people stick your noses everywhere where it is not wanted.

A meddling Yankee is God's worst creation; he cannot run his own affairs correctly, but is constantly interfering in the affairs of others, and he is always ready to repent of everyone's sins, but his own.- North Carolina newspaper (1854)

[Baron Samedi]

Maybe it is because some damn yankees keep telling us how to run our countries and I am thoroughly sick of it. Americans can't even run their own country, hell.. not even their own businesses and yet you people stick your noses everywhere where it is not wanted.

A meddling Yankee is God's worst creation; he cannot run his own affairs correctly, but is constantly interfering in the affairs of others, and he is always ready to repent of everyone's sins, but his own.- North Carolina newspaper (1854)

So you are going to blame people on this forum for that?

I don't have any real influence over my government, you know....

[Albion]

An antecdote about Tipp Hill, off topic, but I thought it was funny when I read it in the Wikipedia article. :lol:

When the city first installed traffic signal lights in 1925, manufactured by Crouse-Hinds Company of Syracuse, they placed one at a major intersection on Tipperary Hill at the corner of Tompkins Street and Milton Avenue. This was the main business district of the area.

The "Green-on-Top" or "Red-on-Bottom" Traffic LightLocal Irish youths, incensed that anyone would dare to put the "British" red above the "Irish" green, threw stones at the signal and broke the red light. The city replaced it, but the Irish soon threw more stones and broke the replacement.

John "Huckle" Ryan, then alderman of the Tipperary Hill section, requested that Tipperary Hill's first traffic signal be hung with the green above the red in deference to its Irish residents. This was done, but soon the State of New York stepped in with regulations. City officials reversed the colors. This despite assurances from local residents that what they were doing was "against nature and would never stand the test of time."

Once again, the red topped the green and officials noted that the signal light began to fail on a regular basis. The local press reported it "was the work of the Little People." Officials doubted this theory, but still were reported to have commented that the marksmanship of those responsible for shattering each red light they installed was "nothing short of miraculous." As fast as a red lens was replaced, it disintegrated.

A contingent of residents went to the city fathers including local businessmen John R. O'Reilley, Dinty Gilmartin, Jim Kernan, Dr. Raymond Devine, and Isadore Wichman. They were members of a group called Tipperary Hill Protective Association.

On March 17, 1928, Commissioner Bradley handled the meeting with the Tipp Hill residents. It was explained to him carefully, "Directing traffic's one thing, but an insult's another, and a thing like that on a day like this is an insult." When the commissioner did not quite get the point, it was explained to him carefully, "It's that light at Tompkins and Milton. If you don't do something about it at once, you won't have a light there tonight."

When the commissioner questioned what the problem with the light was, he was told, "Why, what do you think is the matter with it? Here it is St. Patrick's Day and darned if that light isn't flashing; first green, which is all right, and then orange, and then red. It's got to stop. I want to tell you this and I want you to get it straight and don't get excited about it. That light isn't going to stand there all day flashing its red and orange all over Tipperary Hill. Not while there's any stones on the hill."

The city leaders relented, to a point, and green was given the place of honor, however, they would not remove the traffic signal despite the members request. To this day, the green light is still above the red.

Throughout the years, the local youths are remembered fondly by Tipp Hill residents as the Stonethrower's.

Lol They can't escape us! ;)

[Allenson]

Maybe it would be better to move this thread to the U.S.A-section. Irish Americans a.k.a Plastic Paddies are no real Irish.

I suggest you tale a stroll through Southie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Boston) then. Go into a pub there and call them "plastic paddies", I dare ya. :cool:

http://journalism.emerson.edu/jr610/spring03/cit/southboston/pics/southieireland.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Southie_Mural.JPG

[Peasant]

They care so much about the reunification of Ireland they don't even live there anymore? :confused:

[Bloodeagle]

They care so much about the reunification of Ireland they don't even live there anymore? :confused:
I know that there is a fair bit of migration back and forth between the Irish American community and Ireland. I've known a few Irish in America and Irish Americans who have lived in Ireland. :)

I do agree though, that this thread does not belong in the Irish section.

[Allenson]

They care so much about the reunification of Ireland they don't even live there anymore? :confused:

Bloodeagle is right--there's a lot of back-and-forth between Boston (and elsewhere in North America) and Ireland.

And, I'm not defending them or advocating for them--but instead, simply showing Civis Batavi that the Irish in Boston take their Irishness very seriously.

I'd move the thread but I ain't got that powah!

[Bloodeagle]

And, I'm not defending them or advocating for them--but instead, simply showing Civis Batavi that the Irish in Boston take their Irishness very seriously.


The Irish mob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Mob) springs to my mind when I think of the Irish community in America. Surrounded by many different ethnic groups, and competing for a slice of the American pie, has made the Irish American, a very tough bunch, indeed. ;)

[Peasant]

The American-Irish being so into Irish Republicanism while being in close contact with the Irish makes a lot more sense than if they where more disconnected.

[Bloodeagle]

The American-Irish being so into Irish Republicanism while being in close contact with the Irish makes a lot more sense than if they where more disconnected.

The IRA turned to the American Irish to help raise funds for their cause. Irish to America migrations have also been used as a way to insulate IRA combatants.

[Graham]

On the subject of plastic paddies. Amercans can be a bit strange. Getting confused between Scottish and irish culture here! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C37iqNfsb1M&feature=player_embedded

[Allenson]

I have a typo in my first post here and can't edit it. What's up with that?

;)

[Troll's Puzzle]

The American-Irish being so into Irish Republicanism while being in close contact with the Irish makes a lot more sense than if they where more disconnected.

I can't figure out what you're saying exactly but anyway, it's actually disconnection that makes AmeriMicks so into republicanism & fund & arm the IRA, since they took over the anti-English attitude of the time when they moved in droves to the USA (when ireland was part of britain) and kept it frozen in time (and as a 'ethnic' thing to make them feel more irish and get worked up about) while most of the Irish in Ireland have since moved on somewhat as the situation has changed since that time.


I suggest you tale a stroll through Southie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Boston) then. Go into a pub there and call them "plastic paddies", I dare ya. :cool:

http://journalism.emerson.edu/jr610/spring03/cit/southboston/pics/southieireland.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Southie_Mural.JPG

I'd be very happy to go there and say that, in an England top & in my estuary accent, with a guy dressed like Cromwell on my left and another dressed as Bill the Butcher on my right :P

[Adalwolf]

Traditionally the Irish in America were democrats. Think of the support during the Kennedy era.

[Joe McCarthy]

Traditionally the Irish in America were democrats. Think of the support during the Kennedy era.

Yes, they were. A major part of the FDR coalition that had long lasting, and devastating effects on the US, particularly with FDR's appointments to SCOTUS. They started moving to the GOP, to some extent, after Roe v. Wade. The south Boston Irish also got tagged as racists during the busing controversy.

[Bloodeagle]

Traditionally the Irish in America were democrats. Think of the support during the Kennedy era.

They still are and that is why my union has always had a Mc-something as its president. :p

The mobs love the unions and the democrats.

[Treffie]

They still are and that is why my union has always had a Mc-something as its president. :p



But Mcs and Macs are Scottish :p

[Cedric]

I dont understand why people continue to mock Irish Americans for taking pride in their Irish ancestry.

If you are Irish by blood then be proud if you so wish to. You have just as much right as somebody born and raised in Ireland (maybe even more so as the Irish that moved out were probably some of the hardest hit during the famine etc).

[Bloodeagle]

I dont understand why people continue to mock Irish Americans for taking pride in their Irish ancestry.

If you are Irish by blood then be proud if you so wish to. You have just as much right as somebody born and raised in Ireland (maybe even more so as the Irish that moved out were probably some of the hardest hit during the famine etc).


With the exception of the Irish American enclaves, like New York, Boston, San Francisco, etc, it's just trendy to have Irish pride in the U.S.. It is very popular amongst the white gangster-wigger crowd. I for one, have never seen another European nationality, that has been misrepresented in the same fashion as the Irish have in America.
If you like to drink- it's the Irish in you.
If you like to fight or act like a criminal- it's the Irish in you.
If your a white guy, who is oppressed by the man- it's the Irish in you.
This is what I mean:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QonjXrwiEbY/TSypBRPN3RI/AAAAAAAAZzo/_mUtwKwZo2Q/s640/irish+gangster+gangsta.jpg

[Albion]

I dont understand why people continue to mock Irish Americans for taking pride in their Irish ancestry.

If you are Irish by blood then be proud if you so wish to. You have just as much right as somebody born and raised in Ireland (maybe even more so as the Irish that moved out were probably some of the hardest hit during the famine etc).

Adding to what Bloodeagle said, its also about colonials with traces amounts of Irish ancestry as good as claiming to be more Irish than the Irish themselves.

[TheCelt]

Maybe it would be better to move this thread to the U.S.A-section. Irish Americans a.k.a Plastic Paddies are no real Irish.

you are showing your ignorance clearly in this post and many others in this thread. mindedness would be another term that comes to mind.

[TheCelt]

argumentative/delted

[Hess]

you are showing your ignorance clearly in this post and many others in this thread. mindedness would be another term that comes to mind.

Although I don't have any statistics, I'd be willing to wager that a negligible amount of the Americans who call themselves Irish are actually pure 100% Irish. Most Americans are highly mixed in that regard. I think that Americans just ought to be proud of their own culture and forget about trying to stick to their European heritage. Let me put this way: long ago, I one ancestor who was a Prussian grenadier. Americans who are 12.5% Irish who no more of a right to claim to be Irish than I have a right to claim to be Prussian.

[TheCelt]

ill agree that most americans are mixed, but i disagree with your point that you have no right to claim prussian ancestry. i think you should, and be proud of it. when it comes right down to it the entire human race that currently populates this world stemmed from approximately 10,000. we only branched out and adapted to the environments we(they) lived in. myself, i am mostly irish since my father is 100%, and my mother is 50% irish, and 50% scottish. and my ancestors didnt magically sprout out in ireland and scotland from the ground, they came from somewhere before then. so it is small minded to attempt to tell someone they don't have the right to claim ancestry to which they have own-age to. that would be like me telling you that you have no right to claim to be russian since you are mixed. everyone on this planet is mixed in some way or another, it just so happens that the USA happens to be most current "melting pot", but all of europe was a melting pot if you go back far enough.

[The Lawspeaker]

you are showing your ignorance clearly in this post and many others in this thread. mindedness would be another term that comes to mind.No.. you show your ignorance by claiming to be something you're not. You are not Irish. You're American.

I have French ancestors (some 200 years ago). But I am Dutch and if I would call myself a Frenchman then many a frog here on this forum would laugh his head off... and rightfully so.

[TheCelt]

No.. you show your ignorance by claiming to be something you're not. You are not Irish. You're American.

I have French ancestors (some 200 years ago). But I am Dutch and if I would call myself a Frenchman then many a frog here on this forum would laugh his head off... and rightfully so.

lol, you are not only showing your ignorance, but your immaturity as well. who put you on this planet to judge anyone else but yourself. notice i didnt put a question mark at the end of that rhetorical question because you dont need to answer it. the answer is no one. no one put you on this planet to judge anyone else besides yourself. you don't know me in any way shape or form, yet you make a bold assumption as to what or who i claim to be. i am an American, and proud of it because it was far tougher for my ancestors who were primarily of Irish decent (and some scottish) to build a life here than anywhere else. i am very proud of my Irish/Scottish heritage. Most Americans will take pride in their ancestry because we all started somewhere. i know for a fact that your ancestors didnt miraculously spring out of the ground in what you consider to be your native country so wake up and smell the coffee kid.

[TheCelt]

btw, i see you claim your french ancestry in your profile. if you notice mine, you will see what country i am claiming to be from along with my ancestry.


you really are a clown.

[The Lawspeaker]

lol, you are not only showing your ignorance, but your immaturity as well. who put you on this planet to judge anyone else but yourself. notice i didnt put a question mark at the end of that rhetorical question because its you dont need to answer it. the answer is no one. no one put you on this planet to judge anyone else besides yourself. you don't know me in any way shape or form, yet you make a bold assumption as to what i or who i claim to be. i am an American, and proud of it because it was far tougher for my ancestors who were primarily of Irish decent (and some scottish) to build a life here than anywhere else. i am very proud of my Irish/Scottish heritage. Most Americans will take pride in their ancestry because we all started somewhere. i know for a fact that your ancestors didnt miraculously spring out of the ground in what you consider to be your native country so wake up and smell the coffee kid.
I don't have to claim it because it is the case. A lot of French fled abroad during the Revolution and during the persecutions of the Hugenots.
A lot of them ended up in the Netherlands and they mixed into the population. From my father's side my family is as Dutch as it is gets. From Frisia, Holland, Flanders.

You as an American have no such thing as a heritage. Americans have no culture or civilisation for starters.

This is American high culture:

http://multimarketeers.info/actiebonnen/upload/bigmac.jpg

This is Irish culture:

http://www.goireland.com/main/pics/5201_5300/BigPic/5229Desc1.jpg

http://www.123celtic-irish-jewelry.com/images/celtic-cross.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/LindisfarneFol27rIncipitMatt.jpg

http://news.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/tapdance1.jpg

[Albion]

btw, i see you claim your french ancestry in your profile. if you notice mine, you will see what country i am claiming to be from along with my ancestry.


you really are a clown.

He's not. I think the point a few people here (including Civis Batavi) are trying to make it doesn't make much sense for people with largely minor Irish ancestry to claim to be Irish.

[The Lawspeaker]

Heh.. it would be quite funny when I, with maybe 10 percent French blood (at best !) would claim to be a frog.

[Bloodeagle]

I don't have to claim it because it is the case. A lot of French fled abroad during the Revolution and during the persecutions of the Hugenots.
A lot of them ended up in the Netherlands and they mixed into the population. From my father's side my family is as Dutch as it is gets. From Frisia, Holland, Flanders.

You as an American have no such thing as a heritage. Americans have no culture or civilisation for starters.

This is American high culture:

http://multimarketeers.info/actiebonnen/upload/bigmac.jpg

This is Irish culture:

http://www.goireland.com/main/pics/5201_5300/BigPic/5229Desc1.jpg

http://www.123celtic-irish-jewelry.com/images/celtic-cross.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/LindisfarneFol27rIncipitMatt.jpg

http://news.cultural-china.com/chinaWH/upload/tapdance1.jpg




That is a terrible comparison, you've made there, Civis! :(
As Americans, we do actually have an American heritage, beginning some 400 years ago, with real honest to goodness, Europeans as forefathers. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

"Shrugs". Forefathers, yes. But it doesn't make Americans European. So "TheCelt" here isn't any more Irish (and thus European) then I am French. So: show me the highlights of genuine, American-born culture ?

It's precise they have nothing of themselves is that they always claim to have direct links to Europe.

[TheCelt]

He's not. I think the point a few people here (including Civis Batavi) are trying to make it doesn't make much sense for people with largely minor Irish ancestry to claim to be Irish.

ill agree that someone with a largely minor irish ancestry shouldnt claim to "be irish", but at the same time there is nothing wrong with someone being proud of their ancestry regardless of how much or how little they have. the term poser comes to mind, and this is someone pretending to be something they are not. and i think most people of the world will laugh at the posers. perhaps we are missing each others points.

if your main point is to argue that someone that had a single great, great grandparent who was Irish and they are walking around calling themselves "Irish" i would agree that they are being a "poser" and people from all countries could laugh at a poser.

on the other hand if you are saying someone who is largely (if not 100%) Irish who lives in America calls themselves Irish based on ancestry ( yet clearly acknowledging they are Americans)has no right to do so then i strongly disagree based on my previously stated reasons.

[TheCelt]

He's not.

clearly, he is.

[The Lawspeaker]

clearly, he is.
You're the clown here because you can't handle the fact that there are people here that laugh at these American posers.

The term plastic paddy is originally British (1980s) and is in common use within the Irish press. So it says something: you lot are not being taken seriously. And if you would have bothered to brush through it you would have seen that Brits and Irish themselves do not take these American posers very seriously. Even if someone that would claim 100 percent Dutch ancestry and have a Dutch last name but that doesn't speak my language or wasn't born here I wouldn't call him a Dutchman. Hmm now that I think of it.. plastic Dutchie doesn't sound that bad, right, Joe ? (One of the yanks that always claimed some Dutch ancestry).

[TheCelt]

being an american isnt an ancestry and/or ethnicity. its a nationality and different than most countries that exist today only because it is the newest melting pot of the world. however, every country in this world was a melting pot at some time so it is extremely small minded that you feel that you are on a higher level than anyone else because your from the netherlands. ill make something simple for you since you clearly lack some common knowledge. i dont claim to be "Irish" (just look at my profile to the left), but i am of Irish/Scottish decent, my blood, my dna, genes, heritage, ancestry, etc.. are all of Irish/Scottish decent and im proud of it. and just because some twerp thinks he is Mr. Europe says something that its going to change any Irish American persons opinion of their heritage.

[TheCelt]

Even if someone that would claim 100 percent Dutch ancestry and have a Dutch last name but that doesn't speak my language or wasn't born here I wouldn't call him a Dutchman. Hmm now that I think of it.. plastic Dutchie doesn't sound that bad, right, Joe ? (One of the yanks that always claimed some Dutch ancestry).


your right, he wouldnt be a dutchman because he wasnt born there. being a dutchman would be a nationality. in fact, im sure there are plenty of black dutchman in your country. not because they have a dutch ancestry or heritage, but because they were born there and that is their nation.

im in 100% agreement with you on that point. just as i have said numerous times, i dont consider myself to be an Irishman, im an American of Irish Scottish decent.

Nationality =country you were born in and hold citizen ship with.

Ancestry= where your ancestors were from

Ethnicity= ethnic backgroud

in your terms you have to be born somewhere to call yourself by that countries name, and i agree with that.

where we differ in opinion i believe is that a nationality isn't what your heritage/ancestry/ethnicity are. and most Americans associate themselves with their h/a/e because American is a fairly new melting pot of a country and they are proud of their ancestors.

we agree that most people don't like posers.

we disagree that you are a clown.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wrong. Americans have, after 3 centuries of mixing, become an ethnicity. You are no Irish, no English, no Welsh, no Scots., no Norwegians, no Germans, no Danes, no Dutch, no Swedes, sweet FA but a bunch of mutts. That's all very nice but it doesn't make you anymore European then a Papua.

You speak a corrupted form of English (some Papua speak Pidgin so..), they have a black skin.. some of you have a white skin, they have no culture, they have a culture.. you don't.

[The Lawspeaker]

your right, he wouldnt be a dutchman because he wasnt born there. being a dutchman would be a nationality. in fact, im sure there are plenty of black dutchman in your country. not because they have a dutch ancestry or heritage, but because they were born there and that is their nation.
Black Dutchman do not exist. Colonials that have a passport do. But no one considers them to be Dutch.. other then the lefties.



Nationality =country you were born in and hold citizen ship with.
Nationality and ethnicity were until 25 years ago the very same thing. Today we are giving away our passports with two parcels of butter but that doesn't make them Dutch.



in your terms you have to be born somewhere to call yourself by that countries name, and i agree with that.
Nope. You don't necessarily have to be born there (suppose that my parents would have been in Paris at the time of my birth. I would have had a Dutch passport still). You cannot call yourself a Dutch unless your parents are Dutch (or at least one of the parents), your ancestry is Dutch, you are speaking that language and the Dutch culture is your own.





where we differ in opinion i believe is that a nationality isn't what your heritage/ancestry/ethnicity are. and most Americans associate themselves with their h/a/e because American is a fairly new melting pot of a country and they are proud of their ancestors.
New ? The colonies have been around for some 400 years. 250 years of independence. Isn't it time to grow the hell up ?


we disagree that you are a clown.
Go eff yourself, colonial scum. At least I don't have to look abroad for my heritage. At least I have one.

[Bloodeagle]

"Shrugs". Forefathers, yes. But it doesn't make Americans European. So "TheCelt" here isn't anymore Irish (and thus European) then I am French. So: show me the highlights of genuine, American-born culture ?

America may be a hybrid of other European cultures but America is not inferior to any other culture.
We as Americans, have similar twists and turns of culture, inherited or otherwise mimicked as any great European country who has been influenced by the Romans, for example, who were influenced by the Greeks, the Mesopotamians, etc.. Look at how the French influenced the Norsemen who settled Normandy and then the English.

I agree that it is ridiculous to claim a nationality based on such a small percentage of ancestry and I have personally known people who pick and chose their ancestral allegiance based on flights of fancy, but I do not like to see my country bashed because of these immature displays of ancestry.

[Hess]

I feel this discussion has gotten way out of hand. Americans have their own culture, their own history, and their own mentality to be proud of. They obviously dont need Europe. Why? Because they left it. I don't care How "european" an american looks. As far as I am concerned, an American is just that- an American.

When I see an German- american, i dont treat him as i would an American, not a German.

The American posters here ought to realize that being a European goes much deeper than "looking white" or drining with your retarded friends on st. Patrick's day. It is nothing less than a way of life. There is a spirit that goes with it that an American would never understand.

Why can't Americans just be proud of being American?

[TheCelt]

Wrong. Americans have, after 3 centuries of mixing, become an ethnicity. You are no Irish, no English, no Welsh, no Scots., no Norwegians, no Germans, no Danes, no Dutch, no Swedes, sweet FA but a bunch of mutts. That's all very nice but it doesn't make you anymore European then a Papua.

You speak a corrupted form of English (some Papua speak Pidgin so..), they have a black skin.. some of you have a white skin, they have no culture, they have a culture.. you don't.

you are incorrect again. if that were the case then there would be no black people, no spanish people, no white, red, yellow, etc... this country is still largely (the majority without question) mixed. read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States for statistics. you trying to tell me what i am not is so freaking comical. you are not dutch, not french or anything else for that matter. you are homo errectus and its about that simple.

and lets take a look at the demographics of the netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

and your language is a broken germanic language so what the difference. you are grasping at straws to make a weak argument appear strong, but you have failed.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wrong. Dutch is indeed a German dialect that has developed itself over.... the past 800 odd years if not a lot longer. And you don't grasp how blood and ethnicity and ancestry works and how nationality ought to work. That's because we in Europe have jus sanguinis (except for France) and Americans have jus soli. They are two completely opposite principles. Ours is better - yours doesn't work. Our system doesn't allow for anchor babies (for starters). Let me explain to you very simply how jus sanguinis works: it's Latin for "the right of the blood" and it states that only those with direct genetic heritage (Dutch father, Dutch mother) can become Dutch citizens. Regrettably they destroyed this beautiful system by giving passports to foreigners. Without it.. we wouldn't have had the problems we have today yet America would still have had it's problems because of jus soli.

So jus sanguinis- how does it work (very simplified so an American can understand it).

Mummy -daddy (both not Dutch) - child born in the Netherlands. Child not Dutch.

Mummy (Dutch) - daddy (not Dutch) - child born in the Netherlands. Child can maybe become Dutch.

Mummy (not Dutch) - daddy (Dutch) - child born the Netherlands.
Child can maybe become Dutch.

Mummy (Dutch) - daddy (Dutch) - child born either in the Netherlands or outside the Netherlands (and it has to be reported within a certain time) - Dutch.

And I know my demography. I am Dutch and you don't need to tell me how my country works (I know.. it's one of those nasty yankee habits to try to make out for others how their countries work while they don't know a fucking thing about it).

[TheCelt]

[FONT="Georgia"]
Go eff yourself, colonial scum. At least I don't have to look abroad for my heritage. At least I have one.

lol, small minded. if you think 400 years is a long time, then the evolution of man, and modern humans walking this planet must seem like an eternity to you. the fact is, that 400 years is a small fraction of time that modern humans have been walking this earth and settling down. your ancestors didnt start in the netherlands, they started in what is now known as africa and migrated, evolved, etc... to where they eventually settled.

your last comment is particularly funny. who cares where someone has to look for a heritage... oh wait, you care. good thing for you that you only have to look to africa if you want to find your original ancestors. :wink

[Murphy]

Being an Irishman I must weigh in on this discussion.. Irish-Americans are.. Irish-Americans.

Irishness is not some monolithic bloc. That's simply how humanity works. I'm Irish but I would be more accurately described as an Irish-Scot. We have our own history peculiar to us that separates us from the Irish in Ireland, but we're still Irish.

This is such a sucky post of mine. I just haven't put in any effort :P.

[TheCelt]

And I know my demography. I am Dutch and you don't need to tell me how my country works (I know.. it's one of those nasty yankee habits to try to make out for others how their countries work while they don't know a fucking thing about it).[/FONT]

using your system you are african. i dont see what the problem is.:thumb001: if its a blood only system then where did your blood originate from.

[The Lawspeaker]

See. another damn yank that doesn't understand how jus sanguinis works. I can't blame you. It's a European (Roman !) way of thinking.

[Murphy]

See. another damn yank that doesn't understand how jus sanguinis works. I can't blame you. It's a European (Roman !) way of thinking.

Have we finally won you over to the Romanist cause Civis :P?

[The Lawspeaker]

Have we finally won you over to the Romanist cause Civis :P?
In that respect. It's a very sound way of thinking, mate ! :D

[TheCelt]

i dont need anyone or any system to tell me how to think, and how many Irish-Americans think. we look at it like this. our blood is a direct line from our ancestors who had to fight tooth and nail to survive both in Ireland and America. we are fortunate enough to be born in the greatest country in the world by the sweat of our ancestors and we thank them for that. we are proud of our heritage/ancestry/ethnicity, and of course our nationality. whether you like it, agree with it, or not it really doesn't matter because you are neither an Irishman, American, or Irish-American so your opinion doesnt mean shit. ;) best of luck to you in your small, small world.

[Wyn]

The Irish against the Dutch.

Just like the good old days. ;)

[Albion]

ill agree that someone with a largely minor irish ancestry shouldnt claim to "be irish", but at the same time there is nothing wrong with someone being proud of their ancestry regardless of how much or how little they have. the term poser comes to mind, and this is someone pretending to be something they are not. and i think most people of the world will laugh at the posers. perhaps we are missing each others points.

if your main point is to argue that someone that had a single great, great grandparent who was Irish and they are walking around calling themselves "Irish" i would agree that they are being a "poser" and people from all countries could laugh at a poser.

We can agree on that.


on the other hand if you are saying someone who is largely (if not 100%) Irish who lives in America calls themselves Irish based on ancestry ( yet clearly acknowledging they are Americans)has no right to do so then i strongly disagree based on my previously stated reasons.

Correct. But the point of Civis' original post which you replied to although not clearly defined as such, was probably directed at the Americans with only limited amounts of Irish ancestry.
What you can call yourself isn't entirely based on genetics but also culture although what defines an individual culture is hard to place.
If you are mostly Irish then I see no problem with calling yourself Hiberno-American or Irish American.
Its just when less than half of your ancestry is from a specific source that you claim as your ethnicity which is when it becomes silly.


clearly, he is.

He's not what you would call enthusiastic about America so he might come across like that to an American.


it you would have seen that Brits and Irish themselves do not take these American posers very seriously.

That is very true. "Oh no, here we go..." is what I would say would be the typical thoughts of your average Brit or Irish person once an American starts describing their ancestry.
Its because there's so many Americans with mixed European backgrounds pretending to be something they're not, so much so that the above is the default reaction.


every country in this world was a melting pot at some

Yes - but whatever is cooking in the pot eventually settles to become a new flavour, the new ethnicity.
The Celts and Anglo-Saxons of England would have been a melting pot, eventually they became the English.

The numerous invaders or inhabitants of Italy - Italics, Etruscans, Greeks, Illyrians, Romans, Germanics, Celts, etc eventually settled to form the regional variants of the Italian People today.

Point: melting pots lead to new ethnicities.


Wrong. Americans have, after 3 centuries of mixing, become an ethnicity.

Exactly! Americans are now a new people. Be proud of it, you're ancestors toughed it out from Europe and built a country in the same way European nations were formed centuries ago, you've had wars and conflicts that you have won and developed an identity.


im sure there are plenty of black dutchman in your country.

Don't joke about that, its not funny.
Nationality is separate from ethnicity. A black man calling himself "Dutch" doesn't become Dutch from an ethnic point of view.
In Britain we have an interesting situation - most non-whites identify as British - the nationality, but some are now starting to use "Black English" or "Black Scottish" which is extremely insulting to say the least because they are using the name of our ethnic group not the nation - how would Masai of Kenya like it if I claimed to be "White Masai"! Its a disgrace.


Black Dutchman do not exist. Colonials that have a passport do. But no one considers them to be Dutch.. other then the lefties.

Exactly. Simply because the name of the ethnic group and the nationality match it doesn't make them one of the same, its simply a result of nation-state building (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state) and basing the name of the nationality on the name of the country or the principle ethnic group on which the nation is based on.


New ? The colonies have been around for some 400 years. 250 years of independence. Isn't it time to grow the hell up ?

:thumb001:


At least I don't have to look abroad for my heritage. At least I have one.

Why can't Americans just be proud of being American?

They should be looking towards their own - the founding farthers, the opening up of the west, the civil war, American traditions such as thanksgiving, etc. Its not like they lack heritage.

[The Lawspeaker]

He isn't Irish. If he is Irish then I am a loyal, Hugenot, subject of whatever King Louis of France.

[TheCelt]

The Irish against the Dutch.

Just like the good old days. ;)


im always up for a fight.. its in my blood. :thumb001:

[TheCelt]

He isn't Irish. If he is Irish then I am a loyal, Hugenot, subject of whatever King Louis of France.



Im as much Irish as you are dutch. Im of Irish decent and regardless of any crap you try to spew you can't change that. I am an Irish-American whether you like it or not come and try to take that from me, i dare you. :thumbs up

[The Lawspeaker]

You are not Irish. You are not European either.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/ireland/maps/ireland-political-map.jpg
Where were you or your parents born ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Tectonic_map_Europe.jpg
Where is Ireland ?

No.. it's not next to Turkey...

[Albion]

lol, small minded. if you think 400 years is a long time, then the evolution of man, and modern humans walking this planet must seem like an eternity to you. the fact is, that 400 years is a small fraction of time that modern humans have been walking this earth and settling down. your ancestors didnt start in the netherlands, they started in what is now known as africa and migrated, evolved, etc... to where they eventually settled.

It is a long time. We're not talking about evolution, we're talking about ethnicity. Europe has many old and ancient ones but also many newer ones from the last 400 or even 200 years such as the Macedonians, the split between Czechs and Slovaks, Ukrainians.
Most of the above are still in the process of forming and so appear similar to other ethnicities.

Read up on ethnogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnogenesis) - the point in which a new ethnicity forms.


See. another damn yank that doesn't understand how jus sanguinis works. I can't blame you. It's a European (Roman !) way of thinking.

Hey, don't insult Civil (Anglo-Saxon) law! :p:thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Hey, don't insult Civil (Anglo-Saxon) law! :p:thumb001:
I know, buddy. Jus sanguinis is a good and sound tribal left-over that happened to have been codified in Roman law as well.

[Albion]

Im as much Irish as you are dutch. Im of Irish decent and regardless of any crap you try to spew you can't change that. I am an Irish-American whether you like it or not come and try to take that from me, i dare you. :thumbs up

Keywords: recent (in history) and decent (amount)

[TheCelt]

i agree with most of what you said, and perhaps my first quote of civis was his reply to people with a small % of irish blood claiming to be irish, which i took to be a generalization about Irish-Americans. i feel the same way about posers as anyone else.

civis is obviously anti American and that is his perogitive.

i somewhat agree about melting pots becoming new ethnicities (with enough time), but in my opinion that takes a lot longer than a few hundred years especially since most nationalities kept to themselves up until the early 1900's which only leaves a few generations of mixing (for the majority). this is a subjective matter and it is not based on fact for either side of the argument. my opinion is that being an American is a nationality and not an ethnicity. there is too much diversity for America to be unified under one ethnicity.

i am proud to be an American but its not my ethnicity. being a melting pot of a country many Americans find it important to identify with their heritage/ancestry/ethnicity separately from their nationality and it is our right to do so.

my comment about the black dutchman was just that. its no different than someone saying that someone is african-american. a nationality is a separate item to h/a/e. they are two different items. not every country in the world has to have the same system to identify its people.

[TheCelt]

civis, your maps mean 0% in my mind. unless your forefathers spontaneously sprouted out of the netherlands your opinion means the same (0%). you just happened to have been born in france of dutch decent since that is where your Borreby+Nordid with minor Faelid ancestors decided to park and make camp. again, you are still thinking small minded when the picture is much bigger.

[Wyn]

im always up for a fight.. its in my blood. :thumb001:

If there was ever a time to take revenge for Janszoon's Sack of Baltimore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore), this is it.

[The Lawspeaker]

Right, TheYank.. you're officially an idiot. Lay off the Guinness.. it takes an Irishman to handle it.

[The Lawspeaker]

If there was ever a time to take revenge for Janszoon's Sack of Baltimore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore), this is it.
He isn't Irish. :) Stop feeding his delusions of being higher on the evolutionary ladder then he actually is.

[Wyn]

He isn't Irish. :)


Baltimore should be avenged regardless.

[TheCelt]

If there was ever a time to take revenge for Janszoon's Sack of Baltimore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore), this is it.

most of my ancestry on my fathers side is from Kerry, but my grandmother told me that some of her family was from cork. while my mother side was primarily from Antrim in Ireland and Renfrewshire in Scotland.

[Hess]

civis is obviously anti American and that is his perogitive.

He is not Anti- American so much as he is Pro-European. Because of America's many questionable actions this last century, the two seem to go together hand in hand.

[TheCelt]

Right, TheYank.. you're officially an idiot. Lay off the Guinness.. it takes an Irishman to handle it.


well i suppose when you have run out of fight this is how you act. defeated, but its not surprising:thumb001: really.

[The Lawspeaker]

Baltimore should be avenged regardless.

Yes.. by a Paddy. Where are the Irish when you need them ?

[Treffie]

Im as much Irish as you are dutch. Im of Irish decent and regardless of any crap you try to spew you can't change that. I am an Irish-American whether you like it or not come and try to take that from me, i dare you. :thumbs up

Never mind Civis, he can be the forum guard-dog at times. :D

[The Lawspeaker]

well i suppose when you have run out of fight this is how you act. defeated, but its not surprising:thumb001: really.
I am not running out. I am waiting for an Irishman.. not a yank.

[TheCelt]

Where are the Irish when you need them ?

oh, were you looking for me... sorry i was at your house while you were at work.:thumb001:

[Curtis24]

With the exception of the Irish American enclaves, like New York, Boston, San Francisco, etc, it's just trendy to have Irish pride in the U.S.. It is very popular amongst the white gangster-wigger crowd. I for one, have never seen another European nationality, that has been misrepresented in the same fashion as the Irish have in America.
If you like to drink- it's the Irish in you.
If you like to fight or act like a criminal- it's the Irish in you.
If your a white guy, who is oppressed by the man- it's the Irish in you.
This is what I mean:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QonjXrwiEbY/TSypBRPN3RI/AAAAAAAAZzo/_mUtwKwZo2Q/s640/irish+gangster+gangsta.jpg

Well, there is some truth to it - Irish Americans retained a criminal subculture longer than other white Americans. Though there isn't much of a white criminal class anywhere in America anymore.

[TheCelt]

Well, there is some truth to it - Irish Americans retained a criminal subculture longer than other white Americans. Though there isn't much of a white criminal class anywhere in America anymore.

not more so than the Italian-Americans.

[Bloodeagle]

Well, there is some truth to it - Irish Americans retained a criminal subculture longer than other white Americans. Though there isn't much of a white criminal class anywhere in America anymore.

I was referring to the Wiggers that run around the malls and Mcbars claiming to be Irish, with last names like Smith and Jones. :)

[Cato]

Are you guys still fighting? :LOL:

[TheCelt]

Are you guys still fighting? :LOL:

there really isnt a fight to be had since the fact is i AM Irish (by ethnicity, ancestry, and descent), and American by nationality and there isn't anything he can do about it. and any American who is largely Irish, and embraces their heritage as I have is in the same category (which is far different than someone who has 1/10th Irish in them and claims to be an Irishman. There is a big difference between those types of people and people like myself. the Irish-American culture if he wants to attack those people then so be it, and that isn't my fight. if he wants to attack me then...well lets leave it at that.


in the end its pretty simple. America is currently unique from most countries since our nationality is different than our ethnicity's since the majority of the different ethnicity's stick to their own to preserve their own culture. we are one nation made up of many different cultures, ethnicity's, and heritage.

here is a map that shows the different ethnicity's in America. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg/2000px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg.png

[Graham]

here is a map that shows the different ethnicity's in America. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg/2000px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg.png

Can't take that seriously. In 1980 Census 49,598,035 26.34% Americans reported English ancestry. In 2000 census 24,515,138 8.7% reported English.

[TheCelt]

Can't take that seriously. In 1980 Census 49,598,035 26.34% Americans reported English ancestry. In 2000 census 24,515,138 8.7% reported English.


it was merely a reference, not basing my argument on it. it is well known in America that most ethnicity's have stuck to their own for the majority, and that being American is a nationality not an ethnicity. there are many different ethnicity's that make up the American Nation and most Americans are very proud of their ethnicity's.

[Cedric]

Being an Irishman I must weigh in on this discussion.. Irish-Americans are.. Irish-Americans.

Irishness is not some monolithic bloc. That's simply how humanity works. I'm Irish but I would be more accurately described as an Irish-Scot. We have our own history peculiar to us that separates us from the Irish in Ireland, but we're still Irish.

This is such a sucky post of mine. I just haven't put in any effort :P.

I've noticed that Scottish people with Irish heritage tend to be against the Union.

That slightly annoys me.

[Beorn]

i AM Irish (by ethnicity, ancestry, and descent), and American by nationality

Surely your nationality is Irish (or Scottish, seeing as you have put that down also) and your citizenry is American.

[TheCelt]

Surely your nationality is Irish (or Scottish, seeing as you have put that down also) and your citizenry is American.


Agreed, nationality can be the country to which you have citizenship, or ones ethnicity (by definition). my h/e/a is primarily Irish, with Scottish on my mothers side. the term nationality is used in both senses depending on where you are. for simplicities sake i was breaking things down that way (and i may have used some incorrect terminology as civis had gotten my "Irish" up). I could say that my nationality is Irish (im roughly 75% Irish/25%Scottish) with American Citizenship. Its just another way to say the same thing really. :thumbs up

[TheCelt]

I've noticed that Scottish people with Irish heritage tend to be against the Union.

That slightly annoys me.

although it would be taking this thread in a different direction... why would that annoy you?

[Odoacer]

Surely your nationality is Irish (or Scottish, seeing as you have put that down also) and your citizenry is American.

Sigh (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25965). :tsk:

[Beorn]

Sigh (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25965). :tsk:

One is needed. A nation is a nation.

[Odoacer]

A nation is a nation.

... is a tautology. ;)

[Magister Eckhart]

I sometimes wonder if there's anywhere that's truly Irish, with the homeland largely neglecting its ethnic heritage and the diaspora being sucked into a commercial travesty that rapes our culture worse every year. The Irish may have saved civilization (http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Hinges-History/dp/0385418493), but we did a horrible job of saving ourselves (http://www.seriouseats.com/2009/03/how-to-make-green-beer-for-st-patricks-day.html).