Greek mainland/islands genetic distance is more blurred than I thought?

[Sikeliot]

This comes from a PCA plot for Eurogenes K13 made on Anthrogenica by a user "ph2ter" using samples provided by the members. Most of these samples were all provided by me, and he was nice enough to make the plot (it extends much further out to cover all of Europe but I zoomed in).

But if you look, the variation for the Greek islands is huge, and does overlap with the mainland. There are some North Aegean islanders in the cluster labeled "North Greece" who overlap with mainlanders, whereas most of the Cretans, and a portion of the North Aegean islanders and Cyclades overlap with the Peloponnesians in the "South Greece" labeled cluster.

The rest of the Aegean islands cluster with the Sicilians, South Italians, and Jews, with a minority of really outlying islanders clustering near a few outlying Calabrese from Reggio Calabria and a Cypriot.

But it does show that, at least, many North Aegean people (Chios/Samos), Cyclades results (Andros, mostly on this chart) and even Cretans are not that far off from Peloponnesians.

http://i68.tinypic.com/iqg8lc.jpg

[Tauromachos]

This makes sense alltogether

Do you see now what i told you from the beginning that there is no total gap between the Mainland and the Islands
but a smooth genetic Gradient aligned with the geographic gradient.

And that there is variation within the Mainland itself as there is within the Aegean Islands?

[Sikeliot]

This makes sense alltogether

Do you see now what i told you from the beginning that there is no total gap between the Mainland and the Islands
but a smooth genetic Gradient aligned with the geographic gradient.

And that there is variation within the Mainland itself as there is within the Aegean Islands?

The gap is not filled by Pelponnesians plotting like islanders but islanders plotting like mainlanders.

[Tauromachos]

The gap is not filled by Pelponnesians plotting like islanders but islanders plotting like mainlanders.

This is an oxymoron its like saying the glass is half empty or half full

[Sikeliot]

This is an oxymoron its like saying the glass is half empty or half full


No, it makes a difference. There are not a mass of Sicilian/Dodecanese-like Peloponnesians, but rather some Aegean islanders plotting near mainlanders.

[Tauromachos]

No, it makes a difference. There are not a mass of Sicilian/Dodecanese-like Peloponnesians, but rather some Aegean islanders plotting near mainlanders.

It doesn't make a difference you cannot divide two populations who have been speaking the same language and had common cultural ties"apart from the differences they also have" and have been interacting for millenia in two different ethnicities.

This can never be true

And if you claim that Greeks in continental Greece are closer to a Non Greek speaking Balkan population than they are to their immediate Islands neighbours
there is something fishy about that.

It also doesn't make sense that all Mainlanders would be exactly the same but then entirely different from all Islanders
Or all Islanders the same.

Why should a Cypriot and a North Aegean Islanders be the same or an North Greek and a Greek from Messini in South Peloponnese be
the same

And in fact they are not as you can see for yourself

[Sikeliot]

It doesn't make a difference you cannot divide two populations who have been speaking the same language and had common cultural ties"apart from the differences they also have" and have been interacting for millenia in two different ethnicities.

This can never be true

And if you claim that Greeks in continental Greeks are closer to a Non Greaking speaking Balkan populations than they are to their immediate Islands neighbours
there is something fishy about that.



No, I am saying the whole Greek spectrum is shifted more "Balkan" than you think and less close to Dodecanese, Calabria, Sicilians than you think. On that plot, Sicilians for instance do not join the plot until around the place where Cretans start, and Calabrians are almost all in the Dodecanese area -- and as you see, no mainlander plots there at all.

[Tauromachos]

No, I am saying the whole Greek spectrum is shifted more "Balkan" than you think and less close to Dodecanese, Calabria, Sicilians than you think. On that plot, Sicilians for instance do not join the plot until around the place where Cretans start, and Calabrians are almost all in the Dodecanese area -- and as you see, no mainlander plots there at all.

Shifted more Balkan means nothing

No comprehensive work on Greek genetics ever found that Greeks are in particular close to Balkan populations who are not immediate neighbours.

If you compare general Greeks to the most West Asian shifted Sicilians or Dodecanese Islanders then they are more Balkan yes but this is almost trivial.

[Lavrentis]

http://i68.tinypic.com/iqg8lc.jpg

The Cretans are closer to Athenians and Apulians than to Sicilians? Am I reading this correctly or?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180625/05b50354225e89450e6203a8432a1065.png

[kleenex]

It doesn't make a difference you cannot divide two populations who have been speaking the same language and had common cultural ties"apart from the differences they also have" and have been interacting for millenia in two different ethnicities.

This can never be true

And if you claim that Greeks in continental Greece are closer to a Non Greaking speaking Balkan population than they are to their immediate Islands neighbours
there is something fishy about that.

It also doesn't make sense that all Mainlanders would be exactly the same but then entirely different from all Islanders
Or all Islanders the same.

Why should a Cypriot and a North Aegean Islanders be the same or an North Greek and a Greek from Messini in South Peloponnese be
the same

And in fact they are not as you can see for yourself

Messinian Greeks are relatively close to Thessalians who are intermediate between Peloponnese and Macedonia but closer to Peloponnese. Some Peloponnesian plot North of Thessalians believe it or not.Greek mainland is pretty fluid until you get to Macedonia and Thrace which are NE shifted.

[Tauromachos]

Messinian Greeks are relatively close to Thessalians who are intermediate between Peloponnese and Macedonia but closer to Peloponnese. Some Peloponnesian plot North of Thessalians believe it or not.Greek mainland is pretty fluid until you get to Macedonia and Thrace which are NE shifted.

Some Cretans plot North of Sicilians others plot South why should this be surprising and what do you want to point out with when you say
some Peloponnesians plot North of Thessalians.?

In general i agree with what you wrote

You and Sikeliot want Thessalians?

Here they are

Now tell him to find the Slavic looking ones :lol:

I would say you can count them as fingers on one hand
Or tell me what is so Balkan looking about them
To me they simply look Greek and not much similar to other Balkan people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSm37BWlvw

[Sikeliot]

The Cretans are closer to Athenians and Apulians than to Sicilians? Am I reading this correctly or?


Yes.

The Sicilians are closer to Kalymnians.

[Tauromachos]

Yes.

The Sicilians are closer to Kalymnians.

All Sicilians???

Again you make your distinctions only where you want

[KingOf]

Some Cretans plot North of Sicilians others plot South why should this be surprising and what do you want to point out with when you say
some Peloponnesians plot North of Thessalians.?

In general i agree with what you wrote

You and Sikeliot want Thessalians?

Here they are

Now tell him to find the Slavic looking ones :lol:

I would say you can count them as fingers on one hand
Or tell me what is so Balkan looking about them
To me they simply look Greek and not much similar to other Balkan people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSm37BWlvw

Dude there are many Greeks who have a Balkan look and there are few Greeks who have a Slavic look... the latter being atypical ofc
People here seem to have a problem with the notion that Greeks can sometimes resemble other Balkanites
As a group we look different no one can deny that

[Tauromachos]

Dude there are many Greeks who have a Balkan look and there are few Greeks who have a Slavic look... the latter being atypical ofc
People here seem to have a problem with the notion that Greeks can sometimes resemble other Balkanites
As a group we look different no one can deny that

I don't have a problem with sometimes

Read again the conversation

I have problems with what this guy is claiming that Greeks in general are like other Balkan people who are not even immediate neighbours.

[Sikeliot]

All Sicilians???

Again you make your distinctions only where you want

They shift in 3 directions -- toward the Laconian/Cretan area, toward North Africa, and toward Cyprus/Rhodes.

[Coolguy1]

Messinian Greeks are relatively close to Thessalians who are intermediate between Peloponnese and Macedonia but closer to Peloponnese. Some Peloponnesian plot North of Thessalians believe it or not.Greek mainland is pretty fluid until you get to Macedonia and Thrace which are NE shifted.

I noticed that Messinians including yourself are relatively western shifted from Thessaly. Being from Lakonia, I shift east from you towards the Northern Caucausus which I guess makes sense considering geography.

[Sikeliot]

I noticed that Messinians including yourself are relatively western shifted from Thessaly. Being from Lakonia, I shift east from you towards the Northern Caucausus which I guess makes sense considering geography.

Messinians seem to be going toward the Tuscan cluster, Thessalians toward Balkan Slavs.

[Tauromachos]

Messinians seem to be going toward the Tuscan cluster, Thessalians toward Balkan Slavs.

Messinians often have Abruzzo and Central Greek as their top 2
I have these results stored and can put them out of the fridge any time i want
What you mean Thessalians shift towards Balkan Slavs?

Which Balkan Slavs?
Bulgarians ?

You can see in the video i have posted that Thessalians are not that Balkan Slavic looking.´also

[catgeorge]

Messinians seem to be going toward the Tuscan cluster, Thessalians toward Balkan Slavs.

Its shifting towards Romania. where is the rest of this map?

[Jana]

Study on Balto-Slavic genetics stated Greeks are clearly differenated from South Slavs except for the Macedonian Greeks.

[kleenex]

I noticed that Messinians including yourself are relatively western shifted from Thessaly. Being from Lakonia, I shift east from you towards the Northern Caucausus which I guess makes sense considering geography.

Yes I thought it was strange that you were at such a distance in that North Greek cluster. Wasn't there another far North shifted Laconian in there as well?

[Tauromachos]

Study on Balto-Slavic genetics stated Greeks are clearly differenated from South Slavs except for the Macedonian Greeks.

This^

[Sikeliot]

Study on Balto-Slavic genetics stated Greeks are clearly differenated from South Slavs except for the Macedonian Greeks.

This may be but they are also differentiated from Sicily or Crete also is my point.

[Tauromachos]

This may be but they are also differentiated from Sicily or Crete also is my point.

Oh common

They are closer to Crete than to South Slavs

[Tauromachos]

Study on Balto-Slavic genetics stated Greeks are clearly differenated from South Slavs except for the Macedonian Greeks.

Not only the study on Balto Slavic genetics says this but any serious study so far

For example Triandafilidis also says it clearly

[Bobby Martnen]

(it extends much further out to cover all of Europe but I zoomed in).


Can you please link to the whole thing?

[Sikeliot]

Oh common

They are closer to Crete than to South Slavs

Some south Peloponnesians maybe but not most mainland Greeks, no.

[Bosniensis]

Can you please link to the whole thing?

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14617-Eurogenes-K13-PCA-Megaplot/page23

you might need to register there

last iteration (Final)

https://i.imgur.com/4IuxW01.png

[kleenex]

The South Greek cluster on this PCA looks to be mostly a combination of Cyclade Islanders, Cretans, and Northern shifted Dodacanese. The Northern Greek cluster is actually more of a mainland cluster with Peloponnesians (not southern shifted ones from Mani), Thessalians, and then way North Macedonians, Florina, Thracians, etc.

[kleenex]

This is an observation just take a look. Why the thumbs down?

[Tauromachos]

This is an observation just take a look. Why the thumbs down?


But if you look, the variation for the Greek islands is huge, and does overlap with the mainland. There are some North Aegean islanders in the cluster labeled "North Greece" who overlap with mainlanders, whereas most of the Cretans, and a portion of the North Aegean islanders and Cyclades overlap with the Peloponnesiansin the "South Greece" labeled cluster

[kleenex]

Look where I’m at (TonyC) in the North Greek cluster look at where Sorcelow (Peloponnesian) is at. Yes there are Southern shifting Peloponnesians (possibly Maniots) as well but the PCA just happens to work that way.

[Freeroostah]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14617-Eurogenes-K13-PCA-Megaplot/page23

you might need to register there

last iteration (Final)

https://i.imgur.com/4IuxW01.png

Is there any way we can put our own results just to see where we cluster??

[Tauromachos]

Look where I’m at (TonyC) in the North Greek cluster look at where Sorcelow (Peloponnesian) is at. Yes there are Southern shifting Peloponnesians (possibly Maniots) as well but the PCA just happens to work that way.

First these clusters are based on where particular members here plot its not representative for the regions as such

Second even one part of the Chios"Eeast Aegean Islands" is here in the North Greek cluster the other part is in the South Greek
cluster.

How do you argue then that this doesn't apply also to Messinians,Laconians,Arcadians?

Also what is Interesting is that here the Korinthians are in the South Greek cluster but the South Peloponessians are not

Also your claim that Cretans and Cyclade Islanders cluster with Dodecanese here is not correct.

Dodecanese Islanders here are in third cluster which only overlapps with the Cretan's cluster

At least the Kalymnos Islanders are

For example the Amorgos Islanders are in the South Greek cluster whereas the Dodecanese Islanders are in the
separate Greek Islands cluster together with Cypriots

[kaltar]

The Cretans are closer to Athenians and Apulians than to Sicilians? Am I reading this correctly or?

Latest PCA

https://i.imgur.com/RtNc8QM.jpg

Biplot

https://i.imgur.com/utn8ggA.png

[Jana]

Sikeliot is in Veneto-Friuli cluster (the edge of it). :)

[Tauromachos]

Sikeliot is in Veneto-Friuli cluster (the edge of it). :)

:lol:

[Sikeliot]

Dodecanese overlap with Calabria mostly and approach Cyprus but most other islanders are closer to the mainland.

[Sikeliot]

:lol:

I'm not a full Sicilian, where do you expect me to plot?

[Tauromachos]

I'm not a full Sicilian, where do you expect me to plot?

You are 1/4 or 1/8 West African

[Teucer]

The main takeaway for me is that it is clear that the 'Northern Greece' cluster (which actually includes Peloponessians and Central Greeks) is different enough to form a cluster of its own, independent of the the 'Southern Greece' cluster which overlaps with South Italy, Sicily, Jewish diaspora and the Islands).

It would appear to me that it is these 'Northern' Greeks that differentiate from the norm, not the Islands or Southern Greeks

[nightrider+]

The main takeaway for me is that it is clear that the 'Northern Greece' cluster (which actually includes Peloponessians and Central Greeks) is different enough to form a cluster of its own, independent of the the 'Southern Greece' cluster which overlaps with South Italy, Sicily, Jewish diaspora and the Islands).

It would appear to me that it is these 'Northern' Greeks that differentiate from the norm, not the Islands or Southern Greeks

Did you miss the Patra sample that is more Slav-shifted than the 2 Florina ones (who are more West-shifted even than Albanians)? There is no Northern Greek cluster. Mainland's division is more coastal-inland, along with random regional variation. Although Central/Eastern Macedonia and Thrace tend to be Slav-shifted as well.

[Jana]

You are 1/4 or 1/8 West African

He is not 1/4 African. lol.

I know Sikeliot has Polish and some Portugese so ofcourse he will plot among most northern shifted Southern Europeans.

[nightrider+]

He is not 1/4 African. lol.

I know Sikeliot has Polish and some Portugese so ofcourse he will plot among most northern shifted Southern Europeans.

Somehow he looks Azeri though.

[Teucer]

Did you miss the Patra sample that is more Slav-shifted than the 2 Florina ones (who are more West-shifted even than Albanians)? There is no Northern Greek cluster. Mainland's division is more coastal-inland, along with random regional variation. Although Central/Eastern Macedonia and Thrace tend to be Slav-shifted as well.

I was alluding to the name of the actual cluster which I already acknowledged had areas of Greece which are not in the North

[kleenex]

The main takeaway for me is that it is clear that the 'Northern Greece' cluster (which actually includes Peloponessians and Central Greeks) is different enough to form a cluster of its own, independent of the the 'Southern Greece' cluster which overlaps with South Italy, Sicily, Jewish diaspora and the Islands).

It would appear to me that it is these 'Northern' Greeks that differentiate from the norm, not the Islands or Southern Greeks
I believe that Northern Greek cluster is a baseline representation that includes Peloponnesians, Thessalians, etc. I’ve compared my results with other Peloponnesians on K13 and there isn’t much deviation. Someone on Eupedia has a pretty large bank of Greek mainland samples and noted that there was pretty minimal differences North to South. The South Greek cluster on this PCA includes mainlanders who could be more Southern shifted than the norm. Just an opinion.

[Tauromachos]

I believe that Northern Greek cluster is a baseline representation that includes Peloponnesians, Thessalians, etc. I’ve compared my results with other Peloponnesians on K13 and there isn’t much deviation. Someone on Eupedia has a pretty large bank of Greek mainland samples and noted that there was pretty minimal differences North to South. The South Greek cluster on this PCA includes mainlanders who could be more Southern shifted than the norm. Just an opinion.

I don't believe

How can there be a minimal difference between North and South when for example comparing an extremely Slavic shifted outilier
in North Greece with a Southern Greek person with 1% Slavic

How can they be the same?

[nightrider+]

I don't believe

How can there be a minimal difference between North and South when for example comparing an extremely Slavic shifted outilier
in North Greece with a Southern Greek person with 1% Slavic

How can they be the same?

Slavic is not the only factor here. You can see for example the Arcadia_Laconia sample that is far from Slavs. There is also the more recent Middle Eastern element that many islanders and a few mainlanders like Maniots clearly have more than other Greeks.

[Tauromachos]

Slavic is not the only factor here. You can see for example the Arcadia_Laconia sample that is far from Slavs. There is also the more recent Middle Eastern element that many islanders and a few mainlanders like Maniots clearly have more than other Greeks.

Any proofs that many Islanders and Maniots have significant Middle Eastern?

What i know so far is that particular subgroups in North Greece are significantly more NE/Slavic shifted than the Mainland average.

[Teucer]

There is also the more recent Middle Eastern element that many islanders and a few mainlanders like Maniots clearly have more than other Greeks.

But Maniots are an isolated population?

[nightrider+]

Any proofs that many Islanders and Maniots have significant Middle Eastern?

What i know so far is that particular subgroups in North Greece are significantly more NE/Slavic shifted than the Mainland average.

Haplogroups, lack of it in Mycenaeans etc. It's common sense at this point. I didn't use the word significant btw.


But Maniots are an isolated population?

Tsakonians are, Maniots not so much.

[Tauromachos]

Haplogroups, lack of it in Mycenaeans etc. It's common sense at this point. I didn't use the word significant btw.

Ok^



Tsakonians are, Maniots not so much.

Can you ellaborate on what pecisely you base this conclusion?

Also Tsakonians shift South and are closer to South Italians than other Mainlanders certainly more than Northern Greeks when you go
by these results at least
Tsakonia:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.39
2 Italian_Abruzzo 3.7
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 4.27
4 Italian_Sicilian 5.47
5 Greek_Thessaly 7.36
6 Albanian 7.99
7 Sephardic_Jew 9.23
8 Kosovar 9.26
9 Italian_Tuscan 9.76
10 Bulgarian 13.99
11 Macedonian 14.4
12 Italian_Bergamo 15.73
13 Turkish 15.87
14 Romanian 16.28
15 Montenegrin 17.06
16 Cypriot 17.14
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.66
18 Turkish_Kayseri 18.48
19 Serbian 19.6
20 Balkar 20.86

[Tauromachos]

Messinia:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.47
2 Greek_Thessaly 4.43
3 Albanian 4.9
4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.29
5 Kosovar 5.87
6 Italian_Tuscan 7.5
7 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.87
8 Italian_Sicilian 9.37
9 Bulgarian 10.07
10 Macedonian 10.48
11 Romanian 12.13
12 Sephardic_Jew 12.51
13 Montenegrin 12.87
14 Italian_Bergamo 13.62
15 Serbian 15.51
16 Turkish 17.87
17 Turkish_Aydin 18.8
18 Bosnian 19.15
19 Spaniard 19.38
20 Cypriot 20.64

[Bosniensis]

Is there any way we can put our own results just to see where we cluster??

I barely managed to get into last "update" sorry I think yesterday was final update.

[nightrider+]

Ok^



Can you ellaborate on what pecisely you base this conclusion?

Also Tsakonians shift South and are closer to South Italians than other Mainlanders certainly more than Northern Greeks when you go
by these results at least
Tsakonia:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.39
2 Italian_Abruzzo 3.7
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 4.27
4 Italian_Sicilian 5.47
5 Greek_Thessaly 7.36
6 Albanian 7.99
7 Sephardic_Jew 9.23
8 Kosovar 9.26
9 Italian_Tuscan 9.76
10 Bulgarian 13.99
11 Macedonian 14.4
12 Italian_Bergamo 15.73
13 Turkish 15.87
14 Romanian 16.28
15 Montenegrin 17.06
16 Cypriot 17.14
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.66
18 Turkish_Kayseri 18.48
19 Serbian 19.6
20 Balkar 20.86

Is this from Northern Tsakonia or Southern? Because Northerners have some NE Euro admixture unlike Southern ones who are the real isolates. If it is from the South, it reinforces what I said since it is closer to Abruzzo than more MENA shifted South Italians/Sicilians.

[Tauromachos]

Is this from Northern Tsakonia or Southern? Because Northerners have some NE Euro admixture unlike Southern ones who are the real isolates. If it is from the South, it reinforces what I said since it is closer to Abruzzo than more MENA shifted South Italians/Sicilians.

I don't know if it is from the South

But alot of Cyclades Islanders are also closer to Syracuse,Ragusa in Sicily which are the least Mena shifted parts of Sicily
than to the rest of Sicilians

[Sikeliot]

You are 1/4 or 1/8 West African

1/64. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

I believe that Northern Greek cluster is a baseline representation that includes Peloponnesians, Thessalians, etc. I’ve compared my results with other Peloponnesians on K13 and there isn’t much deviation. Someone on Eupedia has a pretty large bank of Greek mainland samples and noted that there was pretty minimal differences North to South. The South Greek cluster on this PCA includes mainlanders who could be more Southern shifted than the norm. Just an opinion.

This. The "South Greek" cluster are the more 'mainland shifted' Aegean islanders, Apulians (and likely Syracusans should go there too), and the southernmost shifted mainlanders. It is not where 90% of Peloponnese would plot.


The main takeaway for me is that it is clear that the 'Northern Greece' cluster (which actually includes Peloponessians and Central Greeks) is different enough to form a cluster of its own, independent of the the 'Southern Greece' cluster which overlaps with South Italy, Sicily, Jewish diaspora and the Islands).

It would appear to me that it is these 'Northern' Greeks that differentiate from the norm, not the Islands or Southern Greeks

But the "South Greek" cluster is really misnamed. It is not a southern mainland sample overall, but the more mainland-shifted half of Aegean islanders and Cretans.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know if it is from the South

But alot of Cyclades Islanders are also closer to Syracuse,Ragusa in Sicily which are the least Mena shifted parts of Sicily
than to the rest of Sicilians

Ragusa actually varies, the part closer to Syracuse would plot with Syracusans but the parts closer to Caltanissetta are more like a Maltese.

Syracusans should fall in the South Greek cluster -- we will find out because I submitted some for the K15 PCA plot.

[rein]

1/64. :lol:

Lol, he was just 4 generations off. How much African do you show on a genetic test?

[Sikeliot]

Lol, he was just 4 generations off. How much African do you show on a genetic test?

1/64 :lol:

[rein]

1/64 :lol:

Haha, so something you found out from a genetic test.

[Sikeliot]

Haha, so something you found out from a genetic test.

I knew it was going to be there because I knew there was mixture on my great grandmother's side.

[Bobby Martnen]

I knew it was going to be there because I knew there was mixture on my great grandmother's side.

Well, according to the liberal SJW rules, you're black enough to be able to say "nigga".

Do you ever identify as biracial?

[kaltar]

Latest PCA based on K15

https://image.ibb.co/iYPtXJ/K15ver3x.jpg