Eurogenes K13 plotting for Italy/Greece/Jewish groups

[Sikeliot]

I do not get the credit, this belongs to Anthrogenica and to the user who compiled it: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14617-Eurogenes-K13-PCA-Megaplot/page21

Mainland Greeks join three clusters: a Balkan cluster also containing Albania and Romania, a North-Central Italy cluster, and a cluster labeled "South Greek" which consists of a mixed group of the most southern-plotting mainlanders and the most northern-plotting islanders: Peloponnesians, Apulians, North Aegean islands of Chios and Samos, Crete, the Cyclades, and an outlying Dodecanese person.

Island Greeks join two clusters: "South Greek" as mentioned above which might be islands with more mainland Greek input, and then the rest of the islands like Kalymnos and Ikaria scattered across the clusters consisting of various south Italian and Sicilian regions.

Sicilians and south Italians are scattered about and range from falling into the South Greek cluster to falling near the outlying Dodecanese examples, and the same is true for the Ashkenazi/Sephardi samples. Several Palermo and Caltanissetta results shift toward the North Africa cluster.

A few of the Calabrese and Dodecanese are outlying in a Cypriot direction as to be expected.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mz9pb6.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Romanians

There is no official study which says that

[Sikeliot]

Mainland Greeks don't cluster with Romanians

There is no official study which says that

Has there been a study that sampled northern Greeks extensively? As far as I know there has not. But if you look above you see a gradient, where northern Greeks clearly fall in line with other Balkan countries, the Dodecanese are close to one end of the spectrum of south Italians and Cypriots, and everyone else is in the middle.

[Tauromachos]

Has there been a study that sampled northern Greeks extensively? As far as I know there has not. But if you look above you see a gradient, where northern Greeks clearly fall in line with other Balkan countries, the Dodecanese are close to one end of the spectrum of south Italians and Cypriots, and everyone else is in the middle.

No they don't

Which individuals are they using for their samples when they comme up with this results?

Pure Northern Greeks or people from Slavophone or other minorities such as Pomaks?

I'm not a racist but in professional genetic studies for the Greek populations of a region only people who have at least 3 or 4 generations
ancestors who were fully Greek from that region can be used as representatives.

Triandifilidis and others who studied Greek DNA and that of neighbouring people extensivly clearly concluded that Greeks don't cluster with other Balkan populations
only with some Bulgarians and with Albanians predominantly in the South"Tosks" who he says are not very different from Greeks

[Sikeliot]

No they don't

Which individuals are they using for their samples when they comme up with this results?

Pure Northern Greeks or people from Slavophone or other minorities such as Pomaks?

I'm not a racist but in professional genetic studies for the Greek populations of a region only people who have at least 3 or 4 generations
ancestors who were fully Greek from that region can be used as representatives.

Triandifilidis and others who studied Greek DNA and that of neighbouring people extensivly clearly concluded that Greeks don't cluster with other Balkan populations
only with some Bulgarians and with Albanians predominantly in the South"Tosks" who he says are not very different from Greeks


These are all results I have and have verified. As you can see it is not unexpected that Laconia area will overlap better with Crete/Chios/Samos and other mainland regions might be shifted toward the Balkans.

[Tauromachos]

These are all results I have and have verified. As you can see it is not unexpected that Laconia area will overlap better with Crete/Chios/Samos and other mainland regions might be shifted toward the Balkans.


Shifted towards Balkans isn't the same with clustering with other Balkans countries

I agree so far with the part about Laconians but not with the part about Northern Greeks

The professional scientists who studied the genetic composition clearly concluded that Greeks don't cluster with Balkan countries that are not
immediate neighbours.

And Romania isn't an immediate neighbour.

If there is one thing it might be because of Vlachs

Because the Vlachs in Greece split genetically into two groups one which is almost the same with other Greeks in their region and one which is different from
Greeks and closer to Balkans.

[Teucer]

These are all results I have and have verified. As you can see it is not unexpected that Laconia area will overlap better with Crete/Chios/Samos and other mainland regions might be shifted toward the Balkans.

If you look at the map, there is a Cypriot match in the Sephardic cluster but also a Cyprian match in the Levant cluster. What's going on there?

[Tauromachos]

If you look at the map, there is a Cypriot match in the Sephardic cluster but also a Cyprian match in the Levant cluster. What's going on there?

West Med ancestry in Cyprus?

[Teucer]

West Med ancestry in Cyprus?

no i mean why are they so different for the same population?

[Tauromachos]

no i mean why are they so different for the same population?

One of them could have more West Med than the other this is what i meant.

These components are never completly homogenously distributed and it depends what other componenst they have

Its the same i tried to explain with so called Slavic or NE Euro in Mainland Greeks.

Depending on the individual one Mainand Greek might have much more of this 20%-25% and another close to 0%

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sikeliot, did you notice the Madeiran and Azorean samples perfectly within the Iberian range and plotting next to Castilla? I have been telling you for ages that they don't differ from mainland Portugueses.

[lacreme]

77264

While the job done is commendable , the two northernmost Greek clusters are quite strange....
First of all based on the samples that he used it's clear that both should have been closed at a much more lower/southern point and further away from the Balkans cluster, maybe around the black line that I added .

On the Thracian-Greek cluster the "Macedonia_North_Greece" sample that I marked with "?" may have recent ancestry from Vlachs and/or Slavophones. As for the rest,why did he include Bulgarians and atypical looking Romanians some of whom may also have partial Vlach ancestry ? (Most of the Romanian samples are clearly on the Balkans cluster).

The North-Greek cluster is also strangely formed... The northenmost tip is created using the samples of ***** who is from Fyrom, DJP - a person of VERY mixed ancestry (Sicily,Western Europe,Czech Republic) - and a South-Western_Macedonian (from Fyrom ? ) . From his samples it's clear that there aren't any Greeks on that part of the cluster...
He could also add a cluster for the Albanians and the westernmost Greeks even if the samples are limited, just for a general idea about their position on the map.

[kleenex]

I'm not sure what to make of this K13 PCA. It's really confusing.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, did you notice the Madeiran and Azorean samples perfectly within the Iberian range and plotting next to Castilla? I have been telling you for ages that they don't differ from mainland Portugueses.

I did supply all those Madeira samples and they all were about 3-5% SSA but it did not affect their plotting much.

[kleenex]

I do not get the credit, this belongs to Anthrogenica and to the user who compiled it: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14617-Eurogenes-K13-PCA-Megaplot/page21

Mainland Greeks join three clusters: a Balkan cluster also containing Albania and Romania, a North-Central Italy cluster, and a cluster labeled "South Greek" which consists of a mixed group of the most southern-plotting mainlanders and the most northern-plotting islanders: Peloponnesians, Apulians, North Aegean islands of Chios and Samos, Crete, the Cyclades, and an outlying Dodecanese person.

Island Greeks join two clusters: "South Greek" as mentioned above which might be islands with more mainland Greek input, and then the rest of the islands like Kalymnos and Ikaria scattered across the clusters consisting of various south Italian and Sicilian regions.

Sicilians and south Italians are scattered about and range from falling into the South Greek cluster to falling near the outlying Dodecanese examples, and the same is true for the Ashkenazi/Sephardi samples. Several Palermo and Caltanissetta results shift toward the North Africa cluster.

A few of the Calabrese and Dodecanese are outlying in a Cypriot direction as to be expected.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mz9pb6.jpg

Have you seen the latest PCA? Interesting that there is an Euobea sample within the North Greek cluster.

[Sikeliot]

Have you seen the latest PCA? Interesting that there is an Euobea sample within the North Greek cluster.

Apparently Euboea was Slavicized.

What I find interesting is that Laconians, North Aegean islands, Cyclades seem to be fairly close, and you can clearly see two main clusters of Sicilians... Red Sea heavy Palermitans/Caltanissetta/Calabria shifting toward North Africa, and Caucasus-heavy Catanese and Messinese in the Dodecanese cluster.

[Tauromachos]

What I find interesting is that Laconians, North Aegean islands, Cyclades seem to be fairly close, and you can clearly see two main clusters of Sicilians... Red Sea heavy Palermitans/Caltanissetta/Calabria shifting toward North Africa, and Caucasus-heavy Catanese and Messinese in the Dodecanese cluster.

This is what i kept saying here for a long time

But at the beginning you had a hard time believing it

[Bosniensis]

I am Vlacho-Serb xD

https://i.imgur.com/RLmWpRV.png

[kleenex]

Apparently Euboea was Slavicized.

What I find interesting is that Laconians, North Aegean islands, Cyclades seem to be fairly close, and you can clearly see two main clusters of Sicilians... Red Sea heavy Palermitans/Caltanissetta/Calabria shifting toward North Africa, and Caucasus-heavy Catanese and Messinese in the Dodecanese cluster.

Yes I get your point makes sense to me. I see you're in the Veneto Friuli cluster.

[kleenex]

Also i'm a fairly typical Peloponnesian in the North Greek cluster which should be "mainstream" mainland Greek (including Peloponessians, Thessalians, Boetians, Rumelians). Southern Greek would only include Maniot Laconians, Tsaknonians or other such Southern shifted Peloponnesians.

[Sikeliot]

Also i'm a fairly typical Peloponnesian in the North Greek cluster which should be "mainstream" mainland Greek (including Peloponessians, Thessalians, Boetians, Rumelians). Southern Greek would only include Maniot Laconians, Tsaknonians or other such Southern shifted Peloponnesians.

What is labeled "South Greek" looks like outlying Laconians and the northernmost Aegean islanders.

What surprised me was how close North Africans plotted to some of the Sicilians.

[Tauromachos]

Also i'm a fairly typical Peloponnesian in the North Greek cluster which should be "mainstream" mainland Greek (including Peloponessians, Thessalians, Boetians, Rumelians). Southern Greek would only include Maniot Laconians, Tsaknonians or other such Southern shifted Peloponnesians.

No you are not

Don't talk out your ass you posted in the past a result were you got Sicilian Syracuse as the closest and you had also other Southern shifted things in your top 5 or 10

How can you be in the North Greek cluster?

Why should Peloponnesians be in the North Greek cluster on average?

They are intermediate between Northern Greece and the more South shifted Peloponnesians

[Sikeliot]

No you are not

Don't talk out your ass you posted in the past a result were you got Sicilian Syracuse as the closest and you had also other Southern shifted things in your top 5 or 10

How can you be in the North Greek cluster?

Why should Peloponnesians be in the North Greek cluster on average?

They are intermediate between Northern Greece and the more South shifted Peloponnesians


There are no Syracusans on that plot.

[kleenex]

No you are not

Don't talk out your ass you posted in the past a result were you got Sicilian Syracuse as the closest and you had also other Southern shifted things in your top 5 or 10

How can you be in the North Greek cluster?

Why should Peloponnesians be in the North Greek cluster on average?

They are intermediate between Northern Greece and the more South shifted Peloponnesians

I'm talking about on this PCA take a look. I"m TonyC. Why do you think that Peloponnesians and Thessalians are distant? We should be close.

[kleenex]

Here's the PCA:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14617-Eurogenes-K13-PCA-Megaplot/page26
Also includes Macedonia, Thessaly, Laconia, Euboea, Messinia, etc.

[Tauromachos]

There are no Syracusans on that plot.

Not in the plot

But he posted in the past a result of him were he was Southern shifted

Its in your are Greeks more like Italians or Balkan thread i think

[Tauromachos]

I'm talking about on this PCA take a look. I"m TonyC. Why do you think that Peloponnesians and Thessalians are distant? We should be close.

Why should Thessalian be the same with Northern Greeks to begin?

Thessaly is not even Northern Greece

[kleenex]

Why should Thessalian be the same with Northern Greeks to begin?

Thessaly is not even Northern Greece

I don't know ask the creator of the PCA.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know ask the creator of the PCA.


Contrary to what cybernautic thinks ,the difference between mainland and Aegean island Greeks is not bridged by an overall island-like south Peloponnese population, but by a mainland-Greek shifted subset of islanders. Peloponnese plot near other mainlanders... but so do some islanders.