ATHEIST PROFESSOR IN HELL!

[Loki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vj0qKthCgg

[Joso]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vj0qKthCgg

I believe in Christianism but seriously Loki, these testimonies about people visiting hell or heaven and caming back to life are clearly lies. Is ok to be religious but you seens a bit exagerated man, be careful...

[KMack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vj0qKthCgg

That is Howard Storm. He lives a few miles from me.

[Loki]

That is Howard Storm. He lives a few miles from me.

Oh cool! :)

[Loki]

I believe in Christianism but seriously Loki, these testimonies about people visiting hell or heaven and caming back to life are clearly lies. Is ok to be religious but you seens a bit exagerated man, be careful...

Nonsense. Who gives you the right to say they all lied? I think it is very unlikely... far more likely they are telling the truth.

And it is the truth. The Bible tells us about heaven and hell. Why do some people find this so hard to understand... or accept?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Nonsense. Who gives you the right to say they all lied? I think it is very unlikely... far more likely they are telling the truth.

And it is the truth. The Bible tells us about heaven and hell. Why do some people find this so hard to understand... or accept?

Because as I pointed out the stories of people who supposedly go to heaven and/or hell don't match each other's experience except in the stereotypes of what we're suppose to expect that we've all heard in school or in Christian Sunday school (and even then they often contradict each other in that they don't match each other's specific details). The guy from the other video you posted I don't recall saying anything about physical pain (I may be wrong but I don't recall. He only spoke of darkness and fear).

There is not variations of hell stated in the Bible. It's very clear of what hell is like in the Bible. So this guy's story doesn't mesh even with the Bible when he goes on like it's some kind of Dante's Inferno.

They are either scamming people for money or attention or they really believe they had an experience but it's a product of the human mind.

The human mind is very powerful. I once completely forgot I had gotten gas and wondered how was it possible my gas tank was full. Then I remembered - after hours of being befuddled- of having my wallet on my thigh when I was getting gas and that if someone reached in to steal my wallet they might touch my crotch if they missed. From that point the memory of getting gas came back to me.

The mind is very bizarre and powerful.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Behold what the Bible states about so called 'near death experiences'! Behold and turn away from this false road!

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

[Defiance]

I suppose I'll keep this simple: Loki, why are you a Christian?

[Loki]

I suppose I'll keep this simple: Loki, why are you a Christian?

Because God is real, and Jesus is the only way to salvation and everlasting life in heaven. And he is very good to me... has never done me any wrong.

[Loki]

Because as I pointed out the stories of people who supposedly go to heaven and/or hell don't match each other's experience except in the stereotypes of what we're suppose to expect that we've all heard in school or in Christian Sunday school (and even then they often contradict each other in that they don't match each other's specific details). The guy from the other video you posted I don't recall saying anything about physical pain (I may be wrong but I don't recall. He only spoke of darkness and fear).

There is not variations of hell stated in the Bible. It's very clear of what hell is like in the Bible. So this guy's story doesn't mesh even with the Bible when he goes on like it's some kind of Dante's Inferno.

They are either scamming people for money or attention or they really believe they had an experience but it's a product of the human mind.

The human mind is very powerful. I once completely forgot I had gotten gas and wondered how was it possible my gas tank was full. Then I remembered - after hours of being befuddled- of having my wallet on my thigh when I was getting gas and that if someone reached in to steal my wallet they might touch my crotch if they missed. From that point the memory of getting gas came back to me.

The mind is very bizarre and powerful.

You can find all sorts of excuses and explanations, but at the end of the day, they don't wash. As an intelligent man I can tell you that I much rather believe this professor is telling the truth, as are plenty of other people (many of whom were skeptics before their experience...), than what you have just said here. And no, the "human mind" does not explain everything.

Fact of the matter is, God is real... and it is logical that he would allow such glimpses into the afterlife, especially for people like yourself who find it difficult to believe...

As for your quotation of Hebrews 9:27, it does not disagree with any of this. I agree with that verse, of course. Those people did not die... they almost died... were in the process of dying. How else would you describe modern methods of resuscitation? Some people are clinically dead for a short period, and are then again revived. Obviously the window of such an opportunity is narrow.

Some people have also seen visions of heaven and hell (from the Holy Spirit), whilst fully awake, which is another testimony to this. In fact I know people who have had such visions.

What exactly is it about these experiences that bother you the most? The possibility that heaven (and hell) might be real... very real?

[Loki]

Behold what the Bible states about so called 'near death experiences'! Behold and turn away from this false road!

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

See this verse in context. There are instances of people who have died in the Bible, and lived again. For example, like Lazarus, who Jesus raised from the dead.

[Drusilla]

Nonsense. Who gives you the right to say they all lied? I think it is very unlikely... far more likely they are telling the truth.

And it is the truth. The Bible tells us about heaven and hell. Why do some people find this so hard to understand... or accept?

A person who doesn't have God in his/her life is already living in hell long before their death.

[Loki]

That is Howard Storm. He lives a few miles from me.

Do you think he is the type of person who would make stories up, in order to get money or gain fame and publicity?

[Loki]

A person who doesn't have God in his/her life is already living in hell long before their death.

In a certain sense, yes. But literal hell is even worse than that... it is total separation from God, and any love. And it is physical torment, without end.

[Dandelion]

They are either scamming people for money or attention or they really believe they had an experience but it's a product of the human mind.


It reminds me of this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW8Lbpg-ELU

[KMack]

Do you think he is the type of person who would make stories up, in order to get money or gain fame and publicity?

No. I read his book about his experience years ago. When he came back from France and recovered physically, the first thing he did was look for a church to join. Then he studied to become a pastor.
And guest appearances on low rated TV shoes don't pay much if at all.

[Dandelion]

A person who doesn't have God in his/her life is already living in hell long before their death.

It can make people happier in life I guess; But it's a gross generalisation. Plenty of atheists who have a perfectly functional and virtuous life and plenty of Christians with insurmountable problems with their own messed up reality.

[Drusilla]

It can make people happier in life I guess; But it's a gross generalisation. Plenty of atheists who have a perfectly functional and virtuous life and plenty of Christians with insurmountable problems with their own messed up reality.

I fully understand what you mean, but that's not how a Christian believer thinks.

[Dandelion]

I fully understand what you mean, but that's not how a Christian believer thinks.

All very selective belief if you ask me. It's easier to denounce atheists than to denounce other sinful behaviour without getting ostracised as an unpleasant person.

[Gold-Shekel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg02yTx1kXA

[KMack]

Behold what the Bible states about so called 'near death experiences'! Behold and turn away from this false road!

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

This has nothing to do with near death experiences. Also some of them are literal death experiences where people are "medically" dead.
They have been pronounced dead, everything stopped and they came back. With Howard Storm nobody knows because the doctors in France took the weekend off. He was not monitored properly. When he returned to the USA he was very ill and was hospitalized for a long time.

[renaissance12]

Those who hope for no other life are dead even for this.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Loki]

It can make people happier in life I guess; But it's a gross generalisation. Plenty of atheists who have a perfectly functional and virtuous life and plenty of Christians with insurmountable problems with their own messed up reality.

Please explain what you mean by "their messed up reality".

[renaissance12]

Fatima sheppard ( Portugal ) have seen the hell where the souls of poor sinners go.

[Loki]

It can make people happier in life I guess; But it's a gross generalisation. Plenty of atheists who have a perfectly functional and virtuous life and plenty of Christians with insurmountable problems with their own messed up reality.

How do you know? Do you personally know the joy of the Holy Spirit? Are you a Christian? Have you experienced genuine happiness... that is not influenced by external circumstances? A feeling of joy and happiness on the inside, even when things go horribly wrong?

[Dandelion]

Please explain what you mean by "their messed up reality".

Christians who don't have their life in order. All people have personal problems up to a certain level. Some say the Hereafter is what counts, but it's a good endeavour to make life an Earth also liveable for us and for future generation still anyway. Most reasonable Christians agree on that.

[Loki]

All very selective belief if you ask me. It's easier to denounce atheists than to denounce other sinful behaviour without getting ostracised as an unpleasant person.

You really don't have a clue what a true Christian's thought pattern is like.. because on they themselves would know this. I can tell you first-hand. There's a lot of disinformation around my friend... don't believe everything that what you see on TV or read on the internet.

[Loki]

Fatima sheppard ( Portugal ) have seen the hell where the souls of poor sinners go.

Common misconception. We are all sinners. But those who are in Jesus Christ, can escape hell because their sins have been forgiven.

[Dandelion]

How do you know? Do you personally know the joy of the Holy Spirit? Are you a Christian? Have you experienced genuine happiness... that is not influenced by external circumstances? A feeling of joy and happiness on the inside, even when things go horribly wrong?

No and no, but I do see envy as a bad thing and tend to not give into that. And I can experience happiness even when I'm having misfortune. People who are close to me are always a good reason to make the best of it at the least.

[Loki]

Christians who don't have their life in order. All people have personal problems up to a certain level. Some say the Hereafter is what counts, but it's a good endeavour to make life an Earth also liveable for us and for future generation still anyway. Most reasonable Christians agree on that.

What does this have to do with the thread topic?

[Loki]

Christians who don't have their life in order. All people have personal problems up to a certain level. Some say the Hereafter is what counts, but it's a good endeavour to make life an Earth also liveable for us and for future generation still anyway. Most reasonable Christians agree on that.

What does this have to do with the thread topic?

[Dandelion]

Envy? Who is envying who? :confused:

Well, there are always people who have it great in life or show it outwardly (could be a bubble and most often is). It's still a good thing not to feel bad about yourself in the face of that through said envy. Not even calling anyone anything don't worry.

[rhiannon]

Because God is real, and Jesus is the only way to salvation and everlasting life in heaven. And he is very good to me... has never done me any wrong.

Okay Loki....what the heck happened? I swear you used to not be religious at all lol. I recall you being Atheist so what changed? You have taken the reverse trajectory as I because while I was once "Christian" in my very early adulthood, it never sat well with me and I became Agnostic/Atheist by the time I was 28. Have never been happier for it.

So why the change of heart?

I know of one other person on this forum (now inactive) who was once a staunch Christian (Catholic, to be precise) that also renounced it in favor of Atheism/Agnosticism. No names needed, but you probably know who I am speaking of.

[renaissance12]

Common misconception. We are all sinners. But those who are in Jesus Christ, can escape hell because their sins have been forgiven.


If you don't trust Jesus....you have no chance to be saved ( in accordance with Gospel statements )...even if you are a really good man...
Pope Francis-Bergoglio never said that an atheist who deny Jesus can be saved..

[lleon]

Why name yourself Loki if you're Christian?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Those who hope for no other life are dead even for this.

Johann Wolfgang von GoetheYou can be atheists and believe in the possibility of afterlife. Those are 2 seperate things.

[renaissance12]

You can be atheists and believe in the possibility of afterlife. Those are 2 seperate things.

An atheist is materialist...He doesn't believe in any "creation" ex nihilo..So is an oxymoron and a paradox to be atheist and believe in afterlife...

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

An atheist is materialist...He doesn't believe in any "creation" ex nihilo..So is an oxymoron and a paradox to be atheist and believe in afterlife...

Being atheists means you deny and dont believe in god. Doesnt even necessarily mean you are materialistic. Chinese were an atheistic society for sometime. But they believed in things like ki.

[Loki]

Okay Loki....what the heck happened? I swear you used to not be religious at all lol. I recall you being Atheist so what changed? You have taken the reverse trajectory as I because while I was once "Christian" in my very early adulthood, it never sat well with me and I became Agnostic/Atheist by the time I was 28. Have never been happier for it.

So why the change of heart?

I know of one other person on this forum (now inactive) who was once a staunch Christian (Catholic, to be precise) that also renounced it in favor of Atheism/Agnosticism. No names needed, but you probably know who I am speaking of.

Well... rhiannon ... my guess is that you never got to know Jesus, while being a Christian. :) I mean... it cannot be. He is the Saviour. Without him, there is no life, and no hope. I have never been happier. One cannot be TRULY happy without Jesus... I don't think so.

And besides personal choice, I became convinced that God and Jesus is absolutely real, and heaven and hell are real... and therefore it is the most important thing in life. It is not "just a religion", or just a personal choice, that can be something else. No. It is far more than that...

[Loki]

Pope Francis-Bergoglio never said that an atheist who deny Jesus can be saved..

I think he did... on more than one occasion. I recently saw how he told the son of an atheist man who died, not to worry because his father "is in heaven".

Pope Francis has also kissed the Quran, and arranges interfaith stuff... and tells people that "there are many different ways to God, not only through Jesus...". He's obviously working for the devil, that man.

[Loki]

Why name yourself Loki if you're Christian?

Good question. Because I got that name long ago... before committing to God recently. And to me, it's just a name and does not mean I am a Norse god or anything like that. :)

[Heather Duval]

I believe in Christianism but seriously Loki, these testimonies about people visiting hell or heaven and caming back to life are clearly lies. Is ok to be religious but you seens a bit exagerated man, be careful...

How dare you? Coming from a hypocrite person like you, it's very funny. You say you are a Buddhist, but I have never seen where Buddhism supports the racism you spread in this forum, and other kinds of hatred against humans. Youre just an unfunny version of Bobby: Both are virgin and "secretly" gays, but at least Bobby makes me laught and is a Christian.

[Heather Duval]

Nonsense. Who gives you the right to say they all lied? I think it is very unlikely... far more likely they are telling the truth.

And it is the truth. The Bible tells us about heaven and hell. Why do some people find this so hard to understand... or accept?

He does not believe because he has a super negative spiritual vibration. He is totally hateful and despicable as a human being. I particularly think you can believe that it is true. You're not hurting anyone with your belief.

[Defiance]

But why are you convinced that the Bible, specifically, is the truth? Did you receive a revelation of sorts? If so then please tell; if you're comfortable doing so, that is.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I dont know but i have been watching a few debate videos and its affirmed my atheism.

[renaissance12]

Being atheists means you deny and dont believe in god. Doesnt even necessarily mean you are materialistic. Chinese were an atheistic society for sometime. But they believed in things like ki.

Chinese philosophy/theology is pointless (no offense ).... it is not based on logic as western philosophy..
Chinese philosophy is for hippies and teen-agers fan of Dawkins..and new-age religions followers.... quite popular among european-american freak-people

[renaissance12]

I think he did... on more than one occasion. I recently saw how he told the son of an atheist man who died, not to worry because his father "is in heaven".

.

No...I'm Italian and i can tell you that Pope Francis never said that an atheist could be saved.
The pope said that God decides who goes to heaven...and that is true...By definitions GOD can do everything...but we can't read the God's mind.. but we can read the Gospel and in the Gospel is clearly written that an atheist can'be saved.

Jesus said: If you believe in me you can be saved...if you don't believe in me.. you are condemned.

For the people who are not Christian... Saint Thomas D'aquin had explained everything..

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Chinese philosophy/theology is pointless (no offense ).... it is not based on logic as western philosophy..
Chinese philosophy is for hippies and teen-agers fan of Dawkins..and new-age religions followers.... quite popular among european-american freak-people

Ok but its still was an atheistic society and the concept of chi was before science. And creationism isnt logical itself. Especially if we talk about judeo christian version of god

[renaissance12]

Ok but its still was an atheistic society and the concept of chi was before science. And creationism isnt logical itself. Especially if we talk about judeo christian version of god

Aristotle and Plato were not Christians...and they have explained the existence of "god" (of philosophy ) by mean of logic..not by faith.. or tradition..

All philosophy/logic/metaphisyc achievments after Plato and Aristotle is that they consists of a series of footnotes to Plato and Aristotle.. Godel is the only one who made a real leap forward in logic.. but he didn't contradict Aristotle..

[rhiannon]

Well... rhiannon ... my guess is that you never got to know Jesus, while being a Christian. :) I mean... it cannot be. He is the Saviour. Without him, there is no life, and no hope. I have never been happier. One cannot be TRULY happy without Jesus... I don't think so.

And besides personal choice, I became convinced that God and Jesus is absolutely real, and heaven and hell are real... and therefore it is the most important thing in life. It is not "just a religion", or just a personal choice, that can be something else. No. It is far more than that...

You're probably right and the reason being I never really wanted any part of it. It was a coercion of sorts because the person I was with at the time (my daughter's father) was delving into it and wanted me to do the same. He scared me into doing it, actually. It helps to understand I was only 17 when we met and he was nearly 9 years older, so I tended to listen to him.

But no, it never felt right and the older I get, the more convinced I become of the fallacy that is Christianity (and any other religion tbh).

In the US, we have freedom of religion. Those that wish to assume we were always meant to be a Christian country are in fact, wrong.

I don't care what people choose to believe, as we all have to live the life that fulfills us and gives that sense of inner peace, however we may find it.

The only caveat to all of this is people need to STOP peddling their religious beliefs door to door and STOP legislating them.

[KMack]

You're probably right and the reason being I never really wanted any part of it. It was a coercion of sorts because the person I was with at the time (my daughter's father) was delving into it and wanted me to do the same. He scared me into doing it, actually. It helps to understand I was only 17 when we met and he was nearly 9 years older, so I tended to listen to him.

But no, it never felt right and the older I get, the more convinced I become of the fallacy that is Christianity (and any other religion tbh).

In the US, we have freedom of religion. Those that wish to assume we were always meant to be a Christian country are in fact, wrong.

I don't care what people choose to believe, as we all have to live the life that fulfills us and gives that sense of inner peace, however we may find it.

The only caveat to all of this is people need to STOP peddling their religious beliefs door to door and STOP legislating them.

Who does that? It is rare. Believers will spread the word, always have. Nobody knocks on doors except Jehovah Witness and they seem to have stopped.

[Mortimer]

I felt once as if im in hell too but i dont think i was near dead but uncoscious. I took some gift something you can buy legally but not recommended for humans one guy gave it to me. I was 17. I fell uncoscious and saw myself waking up in hell surrounded by demons i then became conscious again threw up drunk water etc

[Larali]

I think I had a NDE one time. I had sleep apnea, and for several days in a row, late at night, I kept dreaming that I was leaving my body and floating around the house. The odd thing was, the clock on the wall changed time soooo slowly, it seemed like an hour would pass between minutes. That's weird enough (and there is more to this that I won't get into). But then one night, I dreamed I was sitting up in my bed and I looked at the mirror, and there was an image of a beautiful cave in the woods surrounded by golden trees. I understood that it was a doorway out of this dimension and I could go on the the afterlife if I chose to. (I was extremely depressed during this time in my life and had been somewhat suicidal). But then I remember thinking, no, I have some time left, and I should stay and finish this thing. So I laid back down in my sleeping body and gradually woke up, not being able to move my limbs at all for a while. I assume this was either an NDE, or a sleep paralysis episode.

Obviously I don't tell people irl this stuff but it seemed relevant here.

On the topic of hell, I'll stay out of that since I promised Loki I would. All I'll add is a quote from my high school youth group leader: "Don't be afraid to ask the hard questions and challenge religion, because that is where you'll find the truth, and the truth is where God is." :)

[Loki]

But why are you convinced that the Bible, specifically, is the truth? Did you receive a revelation of sorts? If so then please tell; if you're comfortable doing so, that is.

Because I am fully convinced the Bible is the truth and talks about the one true God. I just know it. From what I can see, everything points to that being the truth. And yes.. I have received many revelations, but not necessarily ones that make good stories to tell.

[Loki]

I dont know but i have been watching a few debate videos and its affirmed my atheism.

That was me, about a year ago. ;)

[Loki]

No...I'm Italian and i can tell you that Pope Francis never said that an atheist could be saved.
The pope said that God decides who goes to heaven...and that is true...By definitions GOD can do everything...but we can't read the God's mind.. but we can read the Gospel and in the Gospel is clearly written that an atheist can'be saved.

Jesus said: If you believe in me you can be saved...if you don't believe in me.. you are condemned.

For the people who are not Christian... Saint Thomas D'aquin had explained everything..

So basically... to you, being saved and going to heaven are two different things. Dude, you're just trying to make excuses for him. If you want, I can post videos with his exact words... you want me to do that? :)

[Aldaris]

Nonsense. Who gives you the right to say they all lied? I think it is very unlikely... far more likely they are telling the truth.

And it is the truth. The Bible tells us about heaven and hell. Why do some people find this so hard to understand... or accept?

They may not be lying, but the interpretation of their experience is another question entirely, especially when one considers the whole context of NDEs. Assuming some of these people are telling the truth, we should not automatically jump into any conclusion, before a proper investigation and analysis of the case has been done.

[Loki]

You're probably right and the reason being I never really wanted any part of it. It was a coercion of sorts because the person I was with at the time (my daughter's father) was delving into it and wanted me to do the same. He scared me into doing it, actually. It helps to understand I was only 17 when we met and he was nearly 9 years older, so I tended to listen to him.

But no, it never felt right and the older I get, the more convinced I become of the fallacy that is Christianity (and any other religion tbh).

In the US, we have freedom of religion. Those that wish to assume we were always meant to be a Christian country are in fact, wrong.

I don't care what people choose to believe, as we all have to live the life that fulfills us and gives that sense of inner peace, however we may find it.

The only caveat to all of this is people need to STOP peddling their religious beliefs door to door and STOP legislating them.

I find it sad that America has been moving away from God, though... and all that it entails. It hasn't been good for your country at all. Prayer has been taken out of the classroom (big mistake!), abortion legalized, etc etc... but those touch on political issues. And I'm not going to get into that. Of most importance to me, is that people have the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the ONLY way to God... despite there being many different religions. Other religions cannot lead anyone to God, or give salvation and eleternal life. People need to know and understand this truth.

Many people fear that if America is not going to repent and turn back to God, it will be up for destruction. And I am of that view as well.

As for yourself, though, rhiannon... I really hope that one day you can find Jesus in your own setting...away from parental influence or peer pressure. But in a way that would be more comfortable for you. I totally understand how it can be a negative experience by being pressured into something by one's parents.. it is a very wrong (and ineffective) way of getting a message across. Children who are forced into religion by their parents usually just rebel by the time their are adult, and move out of the house.

[renaissance12]

So basically... to you, being saved and going to heaven are two different things. Dude, you're just trying to make excuses for him. If you want, I can post videos with his exact words... you want me to do that? :)

Yes... let see your video..

I found this in a Catholic site..

“If only we could all cry like Emanuele when we have an ache in our hearts like he has,” the Pope told the children. “He was crying for his father and had the courage to do it in front of us because in his heart there is love for his father.”

Pope Francis said he had asked Emanuele if he could share the boy’s question and the boy agreed. “‘A little while ago my father passed away. He was a nonbeliever, but he had all four of his children baptised. He was a good man. Is dad in heaven?'”

“How beautiful to hear a son say of his father, ‘He was good,'” the Pope told the children. “And what a beautiful witness of a son who inherited the strength of his father, who had the courage to cry in front of all of us. If that man was able to make his children like that, then it’s true, he was a good man. He was a good man.

“That man did not have the gift of faith, he wasn’t a believer, but he had his children baptised. He had a good heart,” Pope Francis said.

“God is the one who says who goes to heaven,” the Pope explained.

The next step in answering Emanuele’s question, he said, would be to think about what God is like and, especially, what kind of heart God has. “What do you think? A father’s heart. God has a dad’s heart. And with a dad who was not a believer, but who baptised his children and gave them that bravura, do you think God would be able to leave him far from himself?”

“Does God abandon his children?” the Pope asked. “Does God abandon his children when they are good?

The children shouted, “No.”

“There, Emanuele, that is the answer,” the Pope told the boy. “God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptise your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.

Pope Francis encouraged Emanuele to “talk to your dad; pray to your dad.

Don't forget that Bergoglio is a Jesuit...He is clever enough to choose the best words to console a recently orphaned child.. without denying the Gospel teachings..


Does God abandon his children?” the Pope asked. “Does God abandon his children when they are good?”

The above red color words means: Before dying, God / Jesus offers everyone the opportunity to convert.

Do you remember the two robbers who were crucified with Jesus ?

One is saved the other no..

If you remain an atheist... in accordance with Gospel teachings.. you are Condemned...no matter how good you are.. with no faith.. no salvation..

This is true for every Christians.. from Anglicans to Ortodox and Lutheran and Catholics...

The theological differences between Lutherans/Anglican and Catholics are very very small.. maybe no difference at all..

Virgin Mary and Saints have nothing to do with theology... they are not DIVINE..

It is not possible for any Pope to change the Gospel..

We can't read the God's mind but we can read Saint John/Mark/Luke/Matthew

[Loki]

They may not be lying, but the interpretation of their experience is another question entirely, especially when one considers the whole context of NDEs. Assuming some of these people are telling the truth, we should not automatically jump into any conclusion, before a proper investigation and analysis of the case has been done.

Well... for some things, there can only be so many "interpretations"... for example, if you see a house it is unlikely to be a cat in someone else's interpretation...

[Loki]

I felt once as if im in hell too but i dont think i was near dead but uncoscious. I took some gift something you can buy legally but not recommended for humans one guy gave it to me. I was 17. I fell uncoscious and saw myself waking up in hell surrounded by demons i then became conscious again threw up drunk water etc

What on earth are you talking about? You took some drugs?

[Mortimer]

What on earth are you talking about? You took some drugs?

Not exactly drugs

[Aldaris]

Well... for some things, there can only be so many "interpretations"... for example, if you see a house it is unlikely to be a cat in someone else's interpretation...

You’re correct, but can we make an analogous statement about the issue we’re discussing? The evidence actually points elsewhere in my opinion.

[rhiannon]

Who does that? It is rare. Believers will spread the word, always have. Nobody knocks on doors except Jehovah Witness and they seem to have stopped.

Mormons do it too. I don't want ANYbody of any religious persuasion knocking on my door to peddle their god. I would love to slam the door in their faces honestly but that sense of civility is pretty well inbred so I'd just tell them I had no interest.

Maybe where you live they've stopped but I see Mormon's and JW's out and about pretty frequently....especially here in Alaska where the mindset is pretty much God and Guns lol

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Aristotle and Plato were not Christians...and they have explained the existence of "god" (of philosophy ) by mean of logic..not by faith.. or tradition..

All philosophy/logic/metaphisyc achievments after Plato and Aristotle is that they consists of a series of footnotes to Plato and Aristotle.. Godel is the only one who made a real leap forward in logic.. but he didn't contradict Aristotle..


Creationism still isnt logical. They made leaps
Anything supernatural can not exist in the universe. Because the universe is naturaul and has naturual laws. The supernatural would have to be outside of the Universe, there fore not exist.

[renaissance12]

Creationism still isnt logical. They made leaps
Anything supernatural can not exist in the universe. Because the universe is naturaul and has naturual laws. The supernatural would have to be outside of the Universe, there fore not exist.

An afterlife doesn't exist in this universe.....( please.. don't talk about multiuniverse.. Marvel comics.. or Harry Potter )

Did you read what you post ?:cool:

Where do natural laws come from ?..They are not necessary..
Believe me.. to disprove Aristotle methaphisyc is not possible../( Neither Kant was able to disprove Aristotle...)

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

An afterlife doesn't exist in this universe.....( please.. don't talk about multiuniverse.. Marvel comics.. or Harry Potter )

Did you read what you post ?:cool:

Where do natural laws come from ?..They are not necessary..
Believe me.. to disprove Aristotle methaphisyc is not possible../( Neither Kant was able to disprove Aristotle...)

Natural laws is how the universe operates. Something supernatural wouldnt be compatible. Natural laws is based on how the universe operates. Its the understanding of the universe based on observation of the universe itself. We use mathematics to represent these laws and find out outcomes or variables in the universe.
Natural laws are tested also. Something supernatural never has. Has never been observed and has no evidence for. Its unrrasonable to believe in something existing with no evidence.

The bible is also highly unscientific.
We dont have miracles like people turning into pillars of salt randomly, happening.

[Loki]

You’re correct, but can we make an analogous statement about the issue we’re discussing? The evidence actually points elsewhere in my opinion.

Well, I reckon we are not going to agree on this point... :)

[Loki]

Creationism still isnt logical. They made leaps
Anything supernatural can not exist in the universe. Because the universe is naturaul and has naturual laws. The supernatural would have to be outside of the Universe, there fore not exist.

God is outside this universe's laws... yes, you are right. But no, you are wrong if you say he doesn't exit. He created this whole dimension of reality... this universe, with all its laws.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

God is outside this universe's laws... yes, you are right. But no, you are wrong if you say he doesn't exit. He created this whole dimension of reality... this universe, with all its laws.If its not in the universe. It doesnt exists.

[Loki]

Natural laws is how the universe operates. Something supernatural wouldnt be compatible. Natural laws is based on how the universe operates. Its the understanding of the universe based on observation of the universe itself. We use mathematics to represent these laws and find out outcomes or variables in the universe.
Natural laws are tested also. Something supernatural never has. Has never been observed and has no evidence for. Its unrrasonable to believe in something existing with no evidence.

The bible is also highly unscientific.
We dont have miracles like people turning into pillars of salt randomly, happening.

You think within the box... you need to think outside of it.

The Bible is greater than science, it doesn't have to be scientific. Heaven is not even in this universe.

And yes, the miracles in the Bible were real. Miracles have happened in modern times, too... you can research it and will find out I'm telling you the truth.

[Loki]

If its not in the universe. It doesnt exists.

Wrong. There is more than just this universe...

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

You think within the box... you need to think outside of it.

The Bible is greater than science, it doesn't have to be scientific. Heaven is not even in this universe.

And yes, the miracles in the Bible were real. Miracles have happened in modern times, too... you can research it and will find out I'm telling you the truth.

Whoa, if you deny the bible doesnt have to be scientific to assert if it has any merit to its claims, than i am lost with you. Because if we just threw away away science and reasoning. Anything can be true. We have no way to test or understand what is consistant and what is not.

[Loki]

Whoa, if you deny the bible doesnt have to be scientific to assert if it has any merit to its claims, than i am lost with you. Because if we just threw away away science and reasoning. Anything can be true. We have no way to test or understand what is consistant and what is not.

Look: this universe's laws are not all there is... I know that for certain, because I've experienced the supernatural. It is another dimension... there truly is more than what the eye can see...

You don't have to agree with me, everyone has to make up his own mind.

[wvwvw]

Look: this universe's laws are not all there is... I know that for certain, because I've experienced the supernatural. It is another dimension... there truly is more than what the eye can see...

You don't have to agree with me, everyone has to make up his own mind.

What kind of experience did you have? Please tell us!

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

This has nothing to do with near death experiences. Also some of them are literal death experiences where people are "medically" dead.
They have been pronounced dead, everything stopped and they came back. With Howard Storm nobody knows because the doctors in France took the weekend off. He was not monitored properly. When he returned to the USA he was very ill and was hospitalized for a long time.

It does. The words are clear. You are judged once you die. These people supposedly died but they came back. They weren't judged. So one can argue it wasn't an actual experience with God.

Look, I'm simply pointing out what the Bible - in all of its contradictory glory says - you can either except it or I guess burn in hell or find yourself in a world with no source of light or whatever the next person who has a NDE says hell is like.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Fatima sheppard ( Portugal ) have seen the hell where the souls of poor sinners go.

Even her mother didn't believe her after it was all said and done. The Fatima story is full of holes.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

See this verse in context. There are instances of people who have died in the Bible, and lived again. For example, like Lazarus, who Jesus raised from the dead.

Lazarus wasn't judged.

Your questioning of the Bible causes me to worry about your soul (until the pizza arrives and then I'm all about the pizza).

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Some outright lies you state about judeo christian faith

God does not send anyone to hell, people choose hell.

God does not punish anyone.

I dont even want to explain or elaborate on this. Anyone know these are lies according to judeo christian faith. Or islamic as well

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

And still 0 empiracal evidence. Yet if i told you about the tooth fairy or challenged you zues was the only god, you would state its a lie and theres no evidence. You have no standard for proving gods existance, but demand such a high standard for disproving god's existance or proving another god over yours.

[Defiance]

Agnosticism seems quite reasonable to me, but full-on atheism is a joke.

They tell us that absolutely everything that might lead us to believe in something beyond this material world - apparent design in nature, near-death experiences, the paranormal, humanity's deep desire for something more to existence to begin with - are literally nothing more than illusions. For whatever reasons, they say, my brain is just tricking me into thinking that spirituality of any kind is valid. This begs the question: if I can't trust my own brain, how the hell can I trust anything these people tell me? Think about it.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Agnosticism seems quite reasonable to me, but full-on atheism is a joke.

They tell us that absolutely everything that might lead us to believe in something beyond this material world - apparent design in nature, near-death experiences, the paranormal, humanity's deep desire for something more to existence to begin with - are literally nothing more than illusions. For whatever reasons, they say, my brain is just tricking me into thinking that spirituality of any kind is valid. This begs the question: if I can't trust my own brain, how the hell can I trust anything these people tell me? Think about it.

Your brain in a UNCONCIOUS state? Experiencing a "near death experience"?

[Defiance]

Your brain in a UNCONCIOUS state? Experiencing a "near death experience"?
That's precisely what makes them so compelling. Allegedly. I mean, I've never had one myself, so....

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

But you didnt die. You were never clinically dead.

Edit i mean biological death

When your brain dies

[Defiance]

But you didnt die. You were never clinically dead.

Edit i mean biological death

When your brain dies
True, true. Which is why accounts from either side ("NDE" or "no NDE" - the latter actually being more common from what I gather) can't be considered conclusive proof of anything.

However, it's interesting that the chemical allegedly responsible for this phenomenon - DMT - can be taken as a narcotic to induce hallucinogenic experiences....and those who do this commonly describe their "trips" as very meaningful and, in fact, nothing short of spiritual. Read up on it; you'll see.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

True, true. Which is why accounts from either side ("NDE" or "no NDE" - the latter actually being more common from what I gather) can't be considered conclusive proof of anything.

However, it's interesting that the chemical allegedly responsible for this phenomenon - DMT - can be taken as a narcotic to induce hallucinogenic experiences....and those who do this commonly describe their "trips" as very meaningful and, in fact, nothing short of spiritual. Read up on it; you'll see.Ill pass, no ecstasy or pcp for me

[Defiance]

Ill pass, no ecstasy or pcp for me
Hey! I'm not talking about those drugs; they're very different from what I describe. Furthermore, I said "read;" not "turn into a junkie."

[renaissance12]

Natural laws is how the universe operates. Something supernatural wouldnt be compatible. Natural laws is based on how the universe operates. Its the understanding of the universe based on observation of the universe itself. We use mathematics to represent these laws and find out outcomes or variables in the universe.
Natural laws are tested also. Something supernatural never has. Has never been observed and has no evidence for. Its unrrasonable to believe in something existing with no evidence.

The bible is also highly unscientific.
We dont have miracles like people turning into pillars of salt randomly, happening.


The question is : Why there are laws and not how laws work..

Aristotle didn't know the Bible.

I think you need an elementary basic course of logic.

[renaissance12]

It is WE that decide whether we will go to heaven or not, i.e whether we are spiritually mature to enter heaven. In the end ... believe it or not (sigh of relief), everyone gets to come home! Heaven is a place of ultimate LOVE. When we have learned how to become individuals that base our entire existence and consciousness around manifesting LOVE, we then become capable of entering the domain of the higher Realms of Heaven.

The Bible says that God is love. Love is not an attribute of God, God IS love. ”Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16) That means Living in love for others IS EQUAL TO you living in God AND God is within you.

It also says ”Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8) which means not loving others IS EQUAL TO not knowing God BECAUSE God is love IS EQUAL TO Love is God.

It says God is love." (1 John 4:8) AND "Love keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Corinthians 13:5) meaning God IS EQUAL TO love AND love keeps no record of wrongs. God keeps no record of wrongs because God is unconditional love.

Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10) i.e Love IS EQUAL TO fulfilling the law of God AND God IS EQUAL TO love, THEREFORE, love is the law of God. Loving others IS EQUAL TO obeying Jesus' commands AND his command IS EQUAL TO walk in love. THEREFORE, loving others IS EQUAL TO obeying Jesus.

Jesus came to the planet to be a way-shower for all people and all religions. He lived his life with dedication to this word love so that each of us might have a role model to compare ourselves to. This is why he said, "I AM the way, I AM the truth, and I AM the life. No man can come to God but through me. If you replace I AM and ME with LOVE IS ... you get ...

LOVE is the WAY
LOVE is the TRUTH
LOVE is the LIFE.
No one comes unto GOD
unless they know how to LOVE

Christ had become LOVE WALKING AND TALKING ON THE PLANET. One cannot understand God until one understands and WALKS AND TALKS in the ways of LOVE. If you walk in Love, you will always understand God.

Jesus said what is important is how we show our love for God by the way we treat each other. This is because when we pass to the spiritual realm we will all be met by him, which substantiates the passage, 'No one comes to the Father, but by me.'

While God always Loves us and never turns away from us, when the time comes for us to crossover ... some may decide not to go into the Light..some souls are lost ...and most have not yet found God or Love during their physical lives ... so now they feel confused, bewildered, caught or trapped. And (in a moment of struggle) they feel as if they have no other choice but to siphon off the Light(s) of others ... who are still alive and in a physical body.

Doing so not only causes the netting Soul to grow spiritual muscle (by being consistently weighted down by the energy in his or her net) ... but it also gives transport to a lost being ... also giving the lost one an opportunity to observe us during moments where we practice Love and/or remember our inner Divinity. When a Soul is lost in the nether regions (between this dimension and the Realm) or in what the Bible calls, "the death shadowed valley," it is because they do not remember who they are in Christ ... and have forgotten Love. Therefore, God gives lost Souls an opportunity to grow by allowing them to closely monitor us.

A great number of people on the planet may think they know Christ, but it is clear that they do not. They have not yet passed the Love test. You can always tell who has Christ and who does not ... simply by watching how a person consistently treats people. Sure, some people might have a bad day or two and totally blow their cool, but I am talking about a person who in their heart has a sense of urgency to want to Love on and Joyously Serve others, and not just the ones who look or behave attractively ... but all people. A person filled with the Christ Light will always see that every Soul on this planet is a precious child of our Creator and will always do hers or his best to Love on them.

Each and every one of us plays a vital role on this planet. To be called a son or daughter of God, means that you have matured fully in all the ways of LOVE. Jesus IS the great leader for all the Sons and Daughters of God, especially those who follow the Christian faith. Jesus does not want anyone bowing down to him and being subservient. In fact, what Christ truly wants us to feel is that we are worthy to walk right beside him.


The first Commandment is the most important...

1.You shall have no other gods before Me.



2.You shall not make idols.
3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.


"god" of philosophy and "Faith" are two different argumenst.... Faith needs faith......."god" of philosoph can be explained with logic..



It is WE that decide whether we will go to heaven or not,

Do you want teach God ?...:biggrin:

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The question is : Why there are laws and not how laws work..

Aristotle didn't know the Bible.

I think you need an elementary basic course of logic.




Natural laws is how the universe operates. Something supernatural wouldnt be compatible. Natural laws is based on how the universe operates. Its the understanding of the universe based on observation of the universe itself. We use mathematics to represent these laws and find out outcomes or variables in the universe.
Natural laws are tested also. Something supernatural never has. Has never been observed and has no evidence for. Its unrrasonable to believe in something existing with no evidence.

The bible is also highly unscientific.
We dont have miracles like people turning into pillars of salt randomly, happening.

He also said natural laws are not necessary.

Maybe you assumed I was trying to give an answer for where do natural laws come from? I CLEARLY ONLY Defined what it is. And i stated natural laws is how the world operates. Maybe I should have been much MORE clear.

WE NEED NATURAL LAWS, BECAUSE ITS HOW THE WORLD OPERATES.

WE ALSO MAKE CONSISTANT PREDICTIONS WITH IT.


There, hopefully you can read between lines and tell which information I am infering and countering about.

[renaissance12]

Even her mother didn't believe her after it was all said and done. The Fatima story is full of holes.

Source ? Dawkins and Hitchens ?


http://www.lanuovabq.it/storage/imgs/miracle-of-the-sun-2-fatima-1917-ufos-mystery-and-meaning-apparitions-lord-of-the-harvest-peter-crawford-large.png

[renaissance12]

He also said natural laws are not necessary.

Maybe you assumed I was trying to give an answer for where do natural laws come from? I CLEARLY ONLY Defined what it is. And i stated natural laws is how the world operates. Maybe I should have been much MORE clear.

WE NEED NATURAL LAWS, BECAUSE ITS HOW THE WORLD OPERATES

WE ALSO MAKE CONSISTANT PREDICTIONS WITH IT.


There, hopefully you can read between lines and tell which information I am infering and countering about.


You need a LOGIC course.. NOW... before you post again...:)

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

You need a LOGIC course.. NOW... before you post again...:)No you need to learn to read a writers intention

[renaissance12]

No you need to learn to read a writers intention

Intention≠logic...

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Intention≠logic...And?

You are still assuming the wrong information I am addressing. He clearly talked about more than one topic. But its not hard to pick up i was directly talking about natural laws, where he clearly states natural laws are not needed. I defined natural laws, what it is in the world, and how we use it.
You obviously have problems reading a writers intention.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Sorry maybe you couldnt understand. Let me make this more obvious for you.

NOT KNOWING WHERE DO WE GET NATURAL LAWS, DOES NOT MEAN WE DONT NEED NATURAL LAWS, OR TO ADD ON TO IT, PROVE GODS EXISTANCE.

[Loki]

Sorry maybe you couldnt understand. Let me make this more obvious for you.

NOT KNOWING WHERE DO WE GET NATURAL LAWS, DOES NOT MEAN WE DONT NEED NATURAL LAWS, OR TO ADD ON TO IT, PROVE GODS EXISTANCE.

I know where you get natural laws: from God. He created this, along with this entire universe we are living in. But God himself is above and beyond and outside of those parameters... which makes sense since he's the creator. Imagine the universe is a big box. God stands out of the box. But he can also climb into the box if he wants -- for example, Jesus was born of a human, but he is the human representation of God. He can move freely in and out of the box.

[Loki]

God will not judge us, even if we commit a sin. There is no judgment in God. There is only love – unconditional love – only acceptance. Just as there is no shadow in sun.

John 5:23: ”For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son”. And Jesus said: ”I did not come to judge the world but to save him”

The only judgment existing after death is self-judgment at which time we enter the light of God where all is made known. Having your true inner self revealed (realizing that you are a part of God) can be hell for those who have been motivated mostly by negative forces in life. Those people who lived a life of darkness (ignorance) will find an incompatibility with their true nature (divinity). This self-realization can truly be a hell for such people. This realization is self-realization and self-judgment.



This is false teaching, sorry. The Bible clearly says that God will judge sinners who are not in Christ. And Jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven. That is because most people are going to hell, for rejecting Gods free gift of love.

This is universalist crap, heresy.

[Loki]

Near death experience has to do with parts of your brain effected. Its been debunked before anyways and near death experiences dont prove existance of god.




https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven/

You can believe lies if you want, you are the one who is deceived and will get an unwelcome surprise one day... don't say on that day you weren't warned.

[Loki]

Whoa, if you deny the bible doesnt have to be scientific to assert if it has any merit to its claims, than i am lost with you. Because if we just threw away away science and reasoning. Anything can be true. We have no way to test or understand what is consistant and what is not.

It is definitely not as you describe, because how else can so many people have 100% certainty about God, like I do as well? Evidence is overwhelming... so much so that I would go as far as to say you have to be deliberately negative about it, in order not to believe. And sadly, many people are...

[Loki]

Lazarus wasn't judged.

Your questioning of the Bible causes me to worry about your soul (until the pizza arrives and then I'm all about the pizza).

I'm not questioning the Bible, I'm questioning your strict interpretation of that single verse... because, as we can see in the case of Lazarus, it did not apply to him. And neither does it apply to NDE's.. because those people are not finally dead. It's not as if they have been reincarnated -- which is, I think, what the verse is talking about... :)

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Source ? Dawkins and Hitchens ?


http://www.lanuovabq.it/storage/imgs/miracle-of-the-sun-2-fatima-1917-ufos-mystery-and-meaning-apparitions-lord-of-the-harvest-peter-crawford-large.png

I don't recall where I read it. It's not a subject I take serious enough to be conscious of the importance to remember where I read it. I did, however, google it just now.

This is from a Catholic website.
https://catholicexchange.com/20-things-know-fatima


10. Lucia’s Many Sufferings. One of the greatest sufferings of Lucia, the oldest of the three, was that her mother Maria Rosa, did not believe her and for many years. How painful that this innocent child was thought to be a liar even by her own mother! May we always seek God’s will above human opinion! As the poet Dante reassures us: “In God’s will is our peace.”

The language is sinful in its dishonesty in that it says "mother Maria Rosa, did not believe her and for many years" which implies she eventually had a change of heart but she didn't and the article doesn't go as far as to outright lie and say she did but they leave it hanging in the air so people will assume she did.

Mothers know their children.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I'm not questioning the Bible, I'm questioning your strict interpretation of that single verse... because, as we can see in the case of Lazarus, it did not apply to him. And neither does it apply to NDE's.. because those people are not finally dead. It's not as if they have been reincarnated -- which is, I think, what the verse is talking about... :)

My strict interpretation of the Bible? It's God's words put on paper through a human proxy. Who are you to interpret the Bible however you feel like? It comes directly from God. As most people you're interpreting the Bible as you see fit.

I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight now that your soul is in danger.

[Loki]

Ill pass, no ecstasy or pcp for me

You don't even know the difference between DMT and ecstasy, but you want to be smart-arsed about the existence (or not) of God?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I know where you get natural laws: from God. He created this, along with this entire universe we are living in. But God himself is above and beyond and outside of those parameters... which makes sense since he's the creator. Imagine the universe is a big box. God stands out of the box. But he can also climb into the box if he wants -- for example, Jesus was born of a human, but he is the human representation of God. He can move freely in and out of the box.

You dont know where u get natural laws. You believe that. You cannot prove his existance.

[Loki]

My strict interpretation of the Bible? It's God's words put on paper through a human proxy. Who are you to interpret the Bible however you feel like? It comes directly from God. As most people you're interpreting the Bible as you see fit.

I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight now that your soul is in danger.

:picard1: I do believe the Bible literally, however that verse has been taken out of context. It seems to be talking about reincarnation, or something like that... and not as disproving NDE's, or people being raised from the dead by believers (like Jesus and the Apostles did).

[Loki]

You dont know where u get natural laws. You believe that. You cannot prove his existance.

I know he exists. I don't have to prove it. I've seen and experienced the proof personally in my life.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I know he exists. I don't have to prove it. I've seen and experienced the proof personally in my life.Than why I havnt experienced god. Why hasnt god , came down and be like
:yo tai, I am the lord. Do as I say, follow my rules. I'll give you a souvineir for proof of my existance.

[Larali]

Than why I havnt experienced god. Why hasnt god , came down and be like
:yo tai, I am the lord. Do as I say, follow my rules. I'll give you a souvineir for proof of my existance.

Dude one time when I was 14 I prayed to see my crush at the movie theater and he was there!!!!!!!!!!! I have believed in God ever since.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Dude one time when I was 14 I prayed to see my crush at the movie theater and he was there!!!!!!!!!!! I have believed in God ever since.One time i went to the mall. I was 5. Santa was there!!!! I believe in santa. He puts gifts under your tree after sneaking into your house and you are asleep. He works in mysterious ways

[Larali]

One time i went to the mall. I was 5. Santa was there!!!! I believe in santa. He puts gifts under your tree after sneaking into your house and you are asleep. He works in mysterious ways

Actually though-- it was a turning point in my faith...:angel

And that's why I never taught my kids that Santa is real... because then they would question God too.

[Loki]

Than why I havnt experienced god. Why hasnt god , came down and be like
:yo tai, I am the lord. Do as I say, follow my rules. I'll give you a souvineir for proof of my existance.

Perhaps because you're way too arrogant and blasphemous? Do you really think God is going to honour such requests?

The Jews asked Jesus to give them a sign, and they would believe. But Jesus then said to them, that the only sign they will be given is the Sign of Jonah... see if you can figure that one out.

[Larali]

The thing about faith is, you have to NOT have proof, because if you did, then it wouldn't be faith. God wants to see faith.

[Loki]

The thing about faith is, you have to NOT have proof, because if you did, then it wouldn't be faith. God wants to see faith.

That's not correct. For example, the disciples of Jesus have seen him and lived with him, and believed in him... hence, your definition is invalid.

[Larali]

That's not correct. For example, the disciples of Jesus have seen him and lived with him, and believed in him... hence, your definition is invalid.

Well I was trying to bat for your team, but OK.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Perhaps because you're way too arrogant and blasphemous? Do you really think God is going to honour such requests?

The Jews asked Jesus to give them a sign, and they would believe. But Jesus then said to them, that the only sign they will be given is the Sign of Jonah... see if you can figure that one out.

Arragont and blasphemous. By demanding that he show himself to me? But he wants me to awknowledge that he is da juan tru gawd? If I was so arrogant and blasphemous he would prove his existance to me.

Remember, he is a jealous god. The bible says that god says that.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The thing about faith is, you have to NOT have proof, because if you did, then it wouldn't be faith. God wants to see faith.Basically be a blind follower?

[Larali]

Basically be a blind follower?


faith
fāTH/Submit
noun
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
"she gave her life for her faith"


I interpret "faith" to mean that.... if you have proof, then it would instead be "confirmation" or "validation"... Anybody can be assured of something if they have proof.

To be on a spiritual journey, you'd need to go beyond evidence and experience your truth on a spiritual level. Otherwise, it's all just academic.

[Loki]

Arragont and blasphemous. By demanding that he show himself to me? But he wants me to awknowledge that he is da juan tru gawd? If I was so arrogant and blasphemous he would prove his existance to me.

Remember, he is a jealous god. The bible says that god says that.

Yeah, you can't "demand" anything from God. Who do you think you are, actually? He doesn't owe you anything...

He definitely WILL "prove" his existence to you... but at that time, it would be too late for you to save your soul from eternal damnation and punishment, torment.

So.. have you not even tried to figure the "sign of Jonah" out yet?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I interpret "faith" to mean that.... if you have proof, then it would instead be "confirmation" or "validation"... Anybody can be assured of something if they have proof.

To be on a spiritual journey, you'd need to go beyond evidence and experience your truth on a spiritual level. Otherwise, it's all just academic.Theres 2 definitions of faith.
If talking about religion then it means without evidence.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Yeah, you can't "demand" anything from God. Who do you think you are, actually? He doesn't owe you anything...

So.. have you not even tried to figure the "sign of Jonah" out yet?

Explain to me what the sign of jonah is.

It doesnt matter who I am. Its unreasonable to demand that people awknowledge you, but you dont present yourself before them so they can see you.

[Loki]

Explain to me what the sign of jonah is.



Check this out... it's really interesting. And in effect, provides actual historical verification of what Jesus said was came true.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBx5aZZU6Sk

[Thordis]

Its unreasonable to demand that people awknowledge you, but you dont present yourself before them so they can see you.
But God has already revealed Himself to humanity, countless times, starting with His creation. A single-cell organism is so complex it requires intelligent design. And that's just the start, we live on a planet that has all the right ingredients for life (over 200 parameters that were identified, and counting), to this day no such equivalent has been found. Or take this protein molecule called laminin (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5025931&viewfull=1#post5025931), which forms a cross-like pattern. I've given more examples here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5127062&viewfull=1#post5127062).

But while it is true that nature and this universe reveal His existence and deity (Rom. 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse"), man left solely to nature for his information concerning God usually degenerates into worshiping and serving the creation more than the creator (Rom. 1:25 "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"). The physical universe does not reveal the mind or the will of God, therefore a special revelation is necessary. Also, it makes no sense that this revelation be exclusively personal, since God does not show favoritism (Acts 10:34-35 "...how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"). It is only reasonable that He gives one standard to all men by which He presents Himself to them. The Bible is the only record claiming inspiration that purports to be the revelation from God instead of just a revelation from God. (2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed"). As they say, the proof is in the pudding. The Bible has also been validated by miracles and prophecy, and is consistent with archaeology, topography, and science. It is testimony that God once walked among us in this universe and told us true things about Himself, morality, life, and how to have a relationship with Him. He was called Jesus of Nazareth and he performed miracles from changing water into wine at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus from the dead at the end.

Yet even during those times, there were those who refused to believe and did not follow Him. They witnessed His work and testimony, and yet they shouted crucify Him. So it is not that God cannot and does not want to reveal Himself to people, it is people who again and again, despite witnessing His miracles all around them, refuse to acknolwedge and follow Him. At the end of the day, we have free will, and God wants us to use it. He wants us to love, follow and obey Him because we want to, not because we are forced to. If God were to pop out like a rabbit from under a hat and present Himself to you visually, and leave you a physical souvenir behind, as you demand, would you follow Him freely, would you love Him and consider him your heavely father, friend and confident, or would you do so reluctantly, because it turned out that everything Christians told you about, (incl. hell) would be true, and you would want to make sure you're on His good side? Or maybe you wouldn't follow Him at all, and get back to your usual life? God does not want to assume the role of a mere corrections officer in our lives. His grace is a gift that is bestowed onto us, without any strings attached, and so should our love, worship and service to Him. Even our salvation does not depend on our works. It requires faith. Remember what Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". Yet this does not mean blind faith, without any evidence. If we look at the context of this verse, John describes how Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room after His resurrection. Thomas however was not present with them. When Thomas finds out what they had seen, he does not believe their testimony. Rather, he says, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe" (John. 20:25). But was this reasonable? Thomas had evidence for the resurrection: eyewitness testimony. The other disciples had seen him. He was just not content with it. The story continues: "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:29–31). Biblical faith is based on evidence. That's what the story of doubting Thomas is all about.

God will reveal Himself to a heart that is sincerely seeking Him. In Jeremiah 33:3, He says, "Call to Me and I will answer you and tell you great and wondrous things you do not know." But it may not be the way you demand. He might sometimes honor a fleece that someone puts out in sincerity (e.g. as a young believer, or someone with a mission...) because He is patient with the elementary state of our faith, and not willing to push us to a higher level before we're ready. But it is not a practice that is encouraged in the Bible. In fact, most examples of fleecing come from the Old Testament, and there is no further reference after the day of Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2. Look to God's Word for times when God says He will prove himself, times when He proved himself to someone in the Bible. He wants to do that, but according to His own will and our own individual needs. If it doesn't benefit our spiritual growth, He might have to answer in the negative. Most often though, His answer might just be "wait". Here's some more food for thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ZO2HGM6s8

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

But God has already revealed Himself to humanity, countless times, starting with His creation. A single-cell organism is so complex it requires intelligent design. And that's just the start, we live on a planet that has all the right ingredients for life (over 200 parameters that were identified, and counting), to this day no such equivalent has been found. Or take this protein molecule called laminin (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5025931&viewfull=1#post5025931), which forms a cross-like pattern. I've given more examples here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5127062&viewfull=1#post5127062).

But while it is true that nature and this universe reveal His existence and deity (Rom. 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse"), man left solely to nature for his information concerning God usually degenerates into worshiping and serving the creation more than the creator (Rom. 1:25 "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"). The physical universe does not reveal the mind or the will of God, therefore a special revelation is necessary. Also, it makes no sense that this revelation be exclusively personal, since God does not show favoritism (Acts 10:34-35 "...how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"). It is only reasonable that He gives one standard to all men by which He presents Himself to them. The Bible is the only record claiming inspiration that purports to be the revelation from God instead of just a revelation from God. (2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed"). As they say, the proof is in the pudding. The Bible has also been validated by miracles and prophecy, and is consistent with archaeology, topography, and science. It is testimony that God once walked among us in this universe and told us true things about Himself, morality, life, and how to have a relationship with Him. He was called Jesus of Nazareth and he performed miracles from changing water into wine at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus from the dead at the end.

Yet even during those times, there were those who refused to believe and did not follow Him. They witnessed His work and testimony, and yet they shouted crucify Him. So it is not that God cannot and does not want to reveal Himself to people, it is people who again and again, despite witnessing His miracles all around them, refuse to acknolwedge and follow Him. At the end of the day, we have free will, and God wants us to use it. He wants us to love, follow and obey Him because we want to, not because we are forced to. If God were to pop out like a rabbit from under a hat and present Himself to you visually, and leave you a physical souvenir behind, as you demand, would you follow Him freely, would you love Him and consider him your heavely father, friend and confident, or would you do so reluctantly, because it turned out that everything Christians told you about, (incl. hell) would be true, and you would want to make sure you're on His good side? Or maybe you wouldn't follow Him at all, and get back to your usual life? God does not want to assume the role of a mere corrections officer in our lives. His grace is a gift that is bestowed onto us, without any strings attached, and so should our love, worship and service to Him. Even our salvation does not depend on our works. It requires faith. Remember what Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". Yet this does not mean blind faith, without any evidence. If we look at the context of this verse, John describes how Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room after His resurrection. Thomas however was not present with them. When Thomas finds out what they had seen, he does not believe their testimony. Rather, he says, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe" (John. 20:25). But was this reasonable? Thomas had evidence for the resurrection: eyewitness testimony. The other disciples had seen him. He was just not content with it. The story continues: "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:29–31). Biblical faith is based on evidence. That's what the story of doubting Thomas is all about.

God will reveal Himself to a heart that is sincerely seeking Him. In Jeremiah 33:3, He says, "Call to Me and I will answer you and tell you great and wondrous things you do not know." But it may not be the way you demand. He might sometimes honor a fleece that someone puts out in sincerity (e.g. as a young believer, or someone with a mission...) because He is patient with the elementary state of our faith, and not willing to push us to a higher level before we're ready. But it is not a practice that is encouraged in the Bible. In fact, most examples of fleecing come from the Old Testament, and there is no further reference after the day of Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2. Look to God's Word for times when God says He will prove himself, times when He proved himself to someone in the Bible. He wants to do that, but according to His own will and our own individual needs. If it doesn't benefit our spiritual growth, He might have to answer in the negative. Most often though, His answer might just be "wait". Here's some more food for thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ZO2HGM6s8

Atrributing something complex, does not prove gods existance.

Elements can combine with others to make more complexed molecules


Citing the bible is highly unscientific. Because the bible doesnt base anything from research and tested theories.

Explaining the unexplainable was something important but confusing for many back in ancient times before science with their much more limited understanding of the world. Their response to assume things is only natural. But it doesnt make it true. Also most people in ancient times werent highly uneducated and werent much for thinkers.
Today we are lucky because a vast wealth of knowledge is at the disposal of our fingertips. And sharing ideas, and learning different perspective and reasonings.

[Loki]

Atrributing something complex, does not prove gods existance.

Elements can combine with others to make more complexed molecules


Citing the bible is highly unscientific. Because the bible doesnt base anything from research and tested theories.

Explaining the unexplainable was something important but confusing for many back in ancient times before science with their much more limited understanding of the world. Their response to assume things is only natural. But it doesnt make it true. Also most people in ancient times were highly uneducated and werent much for thinkers.
Today we are lucky because a vast wealth of knowledge is at the disposal of our fingertips. And sharing ideas, and learning different perspective and reasonings.

It is a very easy task to always dismiss everything as being "insufficient", or "inadequate". To some people, there will never be enough evidence for anything. I mean, for example some people believe our whole reality is not what we think, but instead just an advanced computer simulation or a hologram. At the end of the day, it comes down to choice: either you accept God's testimony and revelation to humanity, or you reject it. I consider God's revelation to us as wholly sufficient and I am thankful that he has reached down to us in such a clear way, to save us. I wholeheartedly accept him, with gratitude. What you make with God's revelation is up to you...

[Teutone]

I could never trust and respect an Atheist

[idioteque]

But God has already revealed Himself to humanity, countless times, starting with His creation. A single-cell organism is so complex it requires intelligent design. And that's just the start, we live on a planet that has all the right ingredients for life (over 200 parameters that were identified, and counting), to this day no such equivalent has been found. Or take this protein molecule called laminin (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5025931&viewfull=1#post5025931), which forms a cross-like pattern. I've given more examples here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5127062&viewfull=1#post5127062).

But while it is true that nature and this universe reveal His existence and deity (Rom. 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse"), man left solely to nature for his information concerning God usually degenerates into worshiping and serving the creation more than the creator (Rom. 1:25 "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator"). The physical universe does not reveal the mind or the will of God, therefore a special revelation is necessary. Also, it makes no sense that this revelation be exclusively personal, since God does not show favoritism (Acts 10:34-35 "...how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right"). It is only reasonable that He gives one standard to all men by which He presents Himself to them. The Bible is the only record claiming inspiration that purports to be the revelation from God instead of just a revelation from God. (2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed"). As they say, the proof is in the pudding. The Bible has also been validated by miracles and prophecy, and is consistent with archaeology, topography, and science. It is testimony that God once walked among us in this universe and told us true things about Himself, morality, life, and how to have a relationship with Him. He was called Jesus of Nazareth and he performed miracles from changing water into wine at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus from the dead at the end.

Yet even during those times, there were those who refused to believe and did not follow Him. They witnessed His work and testimony, and yet they shouted crucify Him. So it is not that God cannot and does not want to reveal Himself to people, it is people who again and again, despite witnessing His miracles all around them, refuse to acknolwedge and follow Him. At the end of the day, we have free will, and God wants us to use it. He wants us to love, follow and obey Him because we want to, not because we are forced to. If God were to pop out like a rabbit from under a hat and present Himself to you visually, and leave you a physical souvenir behind, as you demand, would you follow Him freely, would you love Him and consider him your heavely father, friend and confident, or would you do so reluctantly, because it turned out that everything Christians told you about, (incl. hell) would be true, and you would want to make sure you're on His good side? Or maybe you wouldn't follow Him at all, and get back to your usual life? God does not want to assume the role of a mere corrections officer in our lives. His grace is a gift that is bestowed onto us, without any strings attached, and so should our love, worship and service to Him. Even our salvation does not depend on our works. It requires faith. Remember what Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". Yet this does not mean blind faith, without any evidence. If we look at the context of this verse, John describes how Jesus appeared to the disciples in the upper room after His resurrection. Thomas however was not present with them. When Thomas finds out what they had seen, he does not believe their testimony. Rather, he says, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe" (John. 20:25). But was this reasonable? Thomas had evidence for the resurrection: eyewitness testimony. The other disciples had seen him. He was just not content with it. The story continues: "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:29–31). Biblical faith is based on evidence. That's what the story of doubting Thomas is all about.

God will reveal Himself to a heart that is sincerely seeking Him. In Jeremiah 33:3, He says, "Call to Me and I will answer you and tell you great and wondrous things you do not know." But it may not be the way you demand. He might sometimes honor a fleece that someone puts out in sincerity (e.g. as a young believer, or someone with a mission...) because He is patient with the elementary state of our faith, and not willing to push us to a higher level before we're ready. But it is not a practice that is encouraged in the Bible. In fact, most examples of fleecing come from the Old Testament, and there is no further reference after the day of Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2. Look to God's Word for times when God says He will prove himself, times when He proved himself to someone in the Bible. He wants to do that, but according to His own will and our own individual needs. If it doesn't benefit our spiritual growth, He might have to answer in the negative. Most often though, His answer might just be "wait". Here's some more food for thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ZO2HGM6s8

What if someone is seeking Him, but has not yet achieved conviction. They are seeking Him seriously, but the answer is "wait". What if they die before they know? Does He protect their soul until they know?

This question makes waiting very scary.

[renaissance12]

I don't recall where I read it. It's not a subject I take serious enough to be conscious of the importance to remember where I read it. I did, however, google it just now.

This is from a Catholic website.
https://catholicexchange.com/20-things-know-fatima

Sorry but a personal catholic website.. is good for Dawkins followers.. they are used to drink everything that Dawkins offers them..



The language is sinful in its dishonesty in that it says "mother Maria Rosa, did not believe her and for many years" which implies she eventually had a change of heart but she didn't and the article doesn't go as far as to outright lie and say she did but they leave it hanging in the air so people will assume she did.

Mothers know their children.

A personal catholic website ? .. is it good for Dawkins followers ? .... they are used to drink everything that Dawkins offers them..


Come on.. if you want to discuss seriously you have to select better sources..

[renaissance12]

That's not correct. For example, the disciples of Jesus have seen him and lived with him, and believed in him... hence, your definition is invalid.

But many Jews high priest, who met Jesus didn't trust him at all ..

[renaissance12]

Arragont and blasphemous. By demanding that he show himself to me? But he wants me to awknowledge that he is da juan tru gawd? If I was so arrogant and blasphemous he would prove his existance to me.

Remember, he is a jealous god. The bible says that god says that.


If you are happy with your atheism... keep on being an atheist.. but don't forget that sometimes is too late to change minds..

[renaissance12]

Basically be a blind follower?


Do you know what does it mean "HOPE" ?...

16-25.....

[renaissance12]

What if someone is seeking Him, but has not yet achieved conviction. They are seeking Him seriously, but the answer is "wait". What if they die before they know? Does He protect their soul until they know?

This question makes waiting very scary.


God ( Jesus ) has no obligation to save us..

You are not obligated to believe and trus God/Jesus..... and God/Jesus is not obligated to save someone..

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Do you know what does it mean "HOPE" ?...

16-25.....

Hope means to believe theres a possibility for something you want in the future. And to believe in that possibility when in adversities

Not the same thing

[idioteque]

God ( Jesus ) has no obligation to save us..

You are not obligated to believe and trus God/Jesus..... and God/Jesus is not obligated to save someone..

I understand. However it troubles me that there is no closure for a person seeking Him who has not yet achieved conviction.

[renaissance12]

I understand. However it troubles me that there is no closure for a person seeking Him who has not yet achieved conviction.


You can't seeking someone if you are sure he doesn't exist.... and atheists are sure that God doesn't exist...

[wvwvw]

Jesus has helped humanity understand how loving others is the way to heaven and that this heaven can be found within us.

When we are in love, we say were are "in heaven." When we are separated from love, it may feel like "hell”.

Since God is love, the greater spiritual love we build within us, the closer we are to God. Love is God's paradise for humanity. As we enter into heaven, negative vibes are removed by God. This creates a level of happiness that cannot be imagined on earth. Heaven truly becomes a spiritual state of living as who we really are. In heaven, we remember our real identity. In heaven, only the best in each person survives. It is a joyous condition and a state of expanded awareness. There is a perfect freedom of spirit and no one gets tired. It is a new lease on life. It is a lively hilarious place and our true home. We then begin to realize how we were merely visitors on earth and heaven is our real home. We begin to realize that we have been here in heaven before.

People don't go to heaven because of their good deeds, but because their soul vibration of spiritual love fits in and belongs there. Life on earth is a preparation for a fuller, freer and richer eternal existence in heaven; much like a baby in a womb preparing to be born. In the end everyone will choose Heaven and everyone will go to Heaven. Hell may feel like eternity but it’s not forever.

Biblical Evidence for Universal Salvation

God wills everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and no one can thwart God's will (Job 42:2). God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and all people will see God's salvation (Luke 3:5-6). God is savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:9-10) and God saved the world through Jesus (John 3:17). Jesus came to save the world (John 12:47). Jesus tasted death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9). He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He took away the sins of the world (John 1:29). He justifies and gives life to all people (Romans 5:18-21). All will be made alive (1 Corinthian 15:22). He is the savior of the world (John 4:42, 1 John 4:14).

At the cross, Jesus redeemed and reconciled all sinners (Romans 5:8-10) and reconciled all things to himself (Colossians 1:19-21). God has reconciled the world to himself (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). Christ draws all people to himself (John 12:32).

God doesn't cast off anyone forever (Lamentations 3:31-33). God has mercy on all the disobedient (Romans 11:32). God helps all who fall (Psalm 145:14). God dwells with the rebellious (Psalm 68:18). Jesus finds and saves all of the lost (Luke 15:4). Jesus finds those who go astray (Matthew 18:10-14). God delights in showing mercy (Micah)

God is love (I John 4:7-8). God loves everyone (Psalm 145:9). Love keeps no record of wrongs and always protects (1 Corinthian 13:4-7). God is merciful to all (Luke 6:35-36). Love does no harm (Romans 13:10). Nothing can separate people from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39).

Jesus said to always forgive (Matthew 18:21-22). Bless your persecutors and not curse them (Romans 12:14). Don't do evil to those who are evil (Roman 12:17). Overcome evil with good (Romans 12:21).

All of God's creation will praise and honor God and Christ (Revelation 5:13). Christ is Lord of the dead and the living (Romans 14:9). God will bring unity to all things under Christ (Ephesian 1:9-10).

Jesus frees people in hell (Ephesian 4:8-10). Death and hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14).

The way to heaven is love - just as Jesus taught in Luke 10:25-28. This love is not limited to Christians or the Bible.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death." - (1 John 3:14)


https://youtu.be/x8zhnooySk4


https://youtu.be/dmsa0sg4Od4

[idioteque]

You can't seeking someone if you are sure he doesn't exist.... and atheists are sure that God doesn't exist...

Yes, I agree. However I am not talking about an atheist. Why would an atheist be seeking Him?

[renaissance12]

Yes, I agree. However I am not talking about an atheist. Why would an atheist be seeking Him?

Because he is not sure to be an atheist....
Anyway believe in God/Jesus ( Satan believes in Jesus ) is not enough ...... you have to die in a state of grace.....

[Loki]

Jesus has helped humanity understand how loving others is the way to heaven and that this heaven can be found within us.

When we are in love, we say were are "in heaven." When we are separated from love, it may feel like "hell”.

Since God is love, the greater spiritual love we build within us, the closer we are to God. Love is God's paradise for humanity. As we enter into heaven, negative vibes are removed by God. This creates a level of happiness that cannot be imagined on earth. Heaven truly becomes a spiritual state of living as who we really are. In heaven, we remember our real identity. In heaven, only the best in each person survives. It is a joyous condition and a state of expanded awareness. There is a perfect freedom of spirit and no one gets tired. It is a new lease on life. It is a lively hilarious place and our true home. We then begin to realize how we were merely visitors on earth and heaven is our real home. We begin to realize that we have been here in heaven before.

People don't go to heaven because of their good deeds, but because their soul vibration of spiritual love fits in and belongs there. Life on earth is a preparation for a fuller, freer and richer eternal existence in heaven; much like a baby in a womb preparing to be born. In the end everyone will choose Heaven and everyone will go to Heaven. Hell may feel like eternity but it’s not forever.

Biblical Evidence for Universal Salvation

God wills everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) and no one can thwart God's will (Job 42:2). God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and all people will see God's salvation (Luke 3:5-6). God is savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:9-10) and God saved the world through Jesus (John 3:17). Jesus came to save the world (John 12:47). Jesus tasted death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9). He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). He took away the sins of the world (John 1:29). He justifies and gives life to all people (Romans 5:18-21). All will be made alive (1 Corinthian 15:22). He is the savior of the world (John 4:42, 1 John 4:14).

At the cross, Jesus redeemed and reconciled all sinners (Romans 5:8-10) and reconciled all things to himself (Colossians 1:19-21). God has reconciled the world to himself (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). Christ draws all people to himself (John 12:32).

God doesn't cast off anyone forever (Lamentations 3:31-33). God has mercy on all the disobedient (Romans 11:32). God helps all who fall (Psalm 145:14). God dwells with the rebellious (Psalm 68:18). Jesus finds and saves all of the lost (Luke 15:4). Jesus finds those who go astray (Matthew 18:10-14). God delights in showing mercy (Micah)

God is love (I John 4:7-8). God loves everyone (Psalm 145:9). Love keeps no record of wrongs and always protects (1 Corinthian 13:4-7). God is merciful to all (Luke 6:35-36). Love does no harm (Romans 13:10). Nothing can separate people from the love of God (Romans 8:38-39).

Jesus said to always forgive (Matthew 18:21-22). Bless your persecutors and not curse them (Romans 12:14). Don't do evil to those who are evil (Roman 12:17). Overcome evil with good (Romans 12:21).

All of God's creation will praise and honor God and Christ (Revelation 5:13). Christ is Lord of the dead and the living (Romans 14:9). God will bring unity to all things under Christ (Ephesian 1:9-10).

Jesus frees people in hell (Ephesian 4:8-10). Death and hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14).

The way to heaven is love - just as Jesus taught in Luke 10:25-28. This love is not limited to Christians or the Bible.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death." - (1 John 3:14)



More cherry-picking of scriptures... into the very deceptive "universal salvation" nonsense, which is scripturally questionable. Raine, what is the source of this nonsense you post here?

Please don't post heretical stuff in this thread, you will only confuse people!

Heaven and Hell are REAL PLACES... this stuff you posted is a LIE.

And Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. NO OTHER religion will get you to heaven.

[Loki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HebZ9WWrLTc

[Thordis]

Atrributing something complex, does not prove gods existance.

Elements can combine with others to make more complexed molecules


Citing the bible is highly unscientific. Because the bible doesnt base anything from research and tested theories.

Explaining the unexplainable was something important but confusing for many back in ancient times before science with their much more limited understanding of the world. Their response to assume things is only natural. But it doesnt make it true. Also most people in ancient times werent highly uneducated and werent much for thinkers.
Today we are lucky because a vast wealth of knowledge is at the disposal of our fingertips. And sharing ideas, and learning different perspective and reasonings.
The notion that people during antiquwere ignorant and superstitious is largely a myth. Ancient civilizations were quite innovative and advanced for their time, when it comes to certain fields possibly even more advanced than we think today (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/ten-things-ancients-did-better-us-004557). The fact that they achieved it without today's technology makes it all more impressive. The Vikings, for instance, didn't have GPS, compasses, or shuffleboards, and yet they were consistently able to traverse the North Atlantic in a nearly straight line (http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/sunstone-guided-vikings-even-after-sunset). The Romans were nanotechnology pioneers (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/this-1600-year-old-goblet-shows-that-the-romans-were-nanotechnology-pioneers-787224/?no-ist=); the first vending machine was to dispense holy water in the temples of Egypt; early Christian monasteries encouraged literacy and learning. More examples here (http://www.cracked.com/article_21686_5-awesome-technologies-created-by-ancient-civilizations.html) and here (https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology/6-advanced-ancient-inventions-beyond-modern-understanding-002652). Philosophically, for instance, most of what we know was already discovered. Even some of our most technologically sophisticated inventions already had precursors (http://www.cracked.com/article_16973_11-modern-technologies-that-are-way-older-than-you-think.html). It is even probable that higher tech civilizations (https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/17-out-place-artifacts-said-suggest-high-tech-prehistoric-civilizations-020544) existed at some point in time before them, as dozens of prehistoric objects found in various places around the world indicate a level of technological advancement incongruous with the times during which they were made. There is a mind-boggling connection among ancient structures (https://www.ancient-code.com/ancient-code-ancient-sites-that-align-in-a-nearly-perfect-circle-around-earth/) that is indicative of a far greater meaning than we were aware of.

Anyway, the manuscript evidence for the New Testament is far greater than any other ancient text. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the hand-copied texts that have come down from the Masoretic scribes are accurate. They are 1000 years older than previously used manuscripts, and yet the text shows no deviation. We have in total almost 5000 handwritten copies of portions of the New Testament. To compare, there are only 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, 49 copies of Aristotle's Works, 20 copies of Livy's History of Rome, and 10 copies of Caesar's Gallic Wars. No other writings from the past can be compared with the Bible in terms of overwhelming evidence. What does this say? God has preserved His Word for us. No book has affected the world as much as the Bible has. It is a best-seller, the most read and most translated book of all time, distancing itself significantly from other, more "authoritative"-considered books. At the same time it has also experienced great opposition, unlike any other book. People and governments have scorned it, ridiculed it, burned it and made laws against it. And yet the Word of God has survived and, as 1 Peter 1:25 prophesized, "endureth for ever". It is as applicable today as much as it was yesterday or will be tomorrow. It has different books, covering different topics, written in different places, over a period of 1600+ years, by different authors, ranging from kings and priests to fishermen and farmers. And yet its message is entirely consistent and in harmony, there is not one part which contradicts the other. There are minor differences in manuscripts, called variants, but none of these variants impact or change key Christian beliefs or claims. It describes one basic set of morals, one human failure - sin - and only one path to salvation - deliverance through faith in Christ. The Bible is also the only book in the world that has accurate prophecy. There are over 300 precise prophecies that deal with the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, including his family line, the nature of his ministry, his betrayal and death, and we even learn that the Messiah will come before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. To say that these are fulfilled by chance is an astronomical improbability. We have historical, historiographical and archeological evidence to support the existence of Jesus. To determine whether he rose from the dead, we have forensic evidence (such as his burial cloth).

The examples from the Bible serve a purpose, in that one can find correspondence for them in science. Yet another example is the "golden ratio" or "divine proportion" (1.618), a mathematical formula that is found in many things in nature, forms the basis of art, architecture and music, it can be used across all disciplines. This number appears in the Bible long before it was discovered. In Exodus 25:10, God commands Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant - "Have them make an ark of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high." This ratio is as close to the golden number as one can get with simple numbers and the difference is not visible to the human eye. In Exodus 27:1, God commands him to build an altar. "Build an altar of acacia wood, three cubits high; it is to be square, five cubits long and five cubits wide." Again, the ratio is as close to this number as one can get with basic tools. He uses the same ratio for Noak's Ark in Genesis 6:15. The chances that the world and most everything that occupies it formed by itself from nothing and evolved into such a perfect ratio are close to nil.

One can also compare the history of the Scripture with what archeology or DNA studies, for example, have discovered and find conformity to those facts. I've already expanded on this in the thread about evolution, see the videos I've posted there (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5127062&viewfull=1#post5127062). Christian faith does not rest on a shaky foundation. As a matter of fact, atheism takes much more of a leap of faith. Atheists believe that the universe came from nothing, that life can come from non-life, that consciousness emerged from matter. And yet none of this has been observed or replicated in a lab. As a matter of fact, studies point towards the other direction - it's rather the consciousness (or soul) that animates the body/inanimate. Thoughts (energies) can influence matter indirectly (via water which also happens to be just energy on a quantum level). There was a water experiment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvzsjcBtx8) made by a Japanese professor, which aimed to prove that our feelings can influence matter.


What if someone is seeking Him, but has not yet achieved conviction. They are seeking Him seriously, but the answer is "wait". What if they die before they know? Does He protect their soul until they know?

This question makes waiting very scary.
If they are seeking Him earnestly, but aren't quite sure about their conviction, they can ask God to help strengthen their faith. It sounds circular, but it really has worked for people. God will never ask someone to wait when it comes to their salvation though. We are the only ones who can postpone our salvation, but ideally it shouldn't be something left "for later". (I've expanded on why here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234209-Salvation-and-repentance-is-possible-after-death&p=4951726&viewfull=1#post4951726)). For all we know, we could die tonight or tomorrow, and is eternity really something to gamble? If there is even the remotest possibility that there is something after death - and as we've seen from the Bible, NDEs, visions, etc., there is - you wouldn’t want to be on the wrong side. Postponing one's salvation is like being on a plane without a parachute or oxygen mask. If there is the remotest possibility that we could fall to our death, we would want to have it. And God wants us to have it. He has already instructed us what we need to do in order to receive it - repent and trust in Jesus. Those are the only things. But God cannot do it for us, we have free will. The hardest part has already been done through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Now it's up to us whether we want to trust in His sacrifice. We can do that, and turn our life to Him, and when we are born again, He will miraculously open the eyes of our understanding, take us from darkness to light. We will have a new life and new desires. That is not to say that there won't be questions. But it is much easier to find direction in life once we have received the Holy Spirit.

If someone is demanding a specific form of personal revelation or sign/proof from God, His answer might not always be the one they want/expect. But God will only tell us "wait" when it benefits us more than "yes" or a "no" would. It also depends on why we are asking and what we are expecting. The Bible says that "God is a Spirit," a form of life that is invisible to the human eye. When God appeared directly to humans, it was always in the form of a messenger, e.g. an angel, a vision, a burning bush. God has different ways to speak to us, He chooses the one that benefits us and our spiritual growth most. Now if someone wants to experience God more directly because they want a closer relationship with Him, or need to strenghten their faith, God might oblige at the right time, but it also requires something from them, they have to be willing to believe and trust in Him and His will (we do, after all pray that "His will be done"). But again, the "wait" never concerns salvation. If we come before Him to receive it, follow Him and do as He instructed us through His word, He will bestow it unto us.

[renaissance12]

Thordis :thumb001:

[idioteque]

The notion that people during antiquwere ignorant and superstitious is largely a myth. Ancient civilizations were quite innovative and advanced for their time, when it comes to certain fields possibly even more advanced than we think today (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/ten-things-ancients-did-better-us-004557). The fact that they achieved it without today's technology makes it all more impressive. The Vikings, for instance, didn't have GPS, compasses, or shuffleboards, and yet they were consistently able to traverse the North Atlantic in a nearly straight line (http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/sunstone-guided-vikings-even-after-sunset). The Romans were nanotechnology pioneers (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/this-1600-year-old-goblet-shows-that-the-romans-were-nanotechnology-pioneers-787224/?no-ist=); the first vending machine was to dispense holy water in the temples of Egypt; early Christian monasteries encouraged literacy and learning. More examples here (http://www.cracked.com/article_21686_5-awesome-technologies-created-by-ancient-civilizations.html) and here (https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology/6-advanced-ancient-inventions-beyond-modern-understanding-002652). Philosophically, for instance, most of what we know was already discovered. Even some of our most technologically sophisticated inventions already had precursors (http://www.cracked.com/article_16973_11-modern-technologies-that-are-way-older-than-you-think.html). It is even probable that higher tech civilizations (https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/17-out-place-artifacts-said-suggest-high-tech-prehistoric-civilizations-020544) existed at some point in time before them, as dozens of prehistoric objects found in various places around the world indicate a level of technological advancement incongruous with the times during which they were made. There is a mind-boggling connection among ancient structures (https://www.ancient-code.com/ancient-code-ancient-sites-that-align-in-a-nearly-perfect-circle-around-earth/) that is indicative of a far greater meaning than we were aware of.

Anyway, the manuscript evidence for the New Testament is far greater than any other ancient text. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the hand-copied texts that have come down from the Masoretic scribes are accurate. They are 1000 years older than previously used manuscripts, and yet the text shows no deviation. We have in total almost 5000 handwritten copies of portions of the New Testament. To compare, there are only 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, 49 copies of Aristotle's Works, 20 copies of Livy's History of Rome, and 10 copies of Caesar's Gallic Wars. No other writings from the past can be compared with the Bible in terms of overwhelming evidence. What does this say? God has preserved His Word for us. No book has affected the world as much as the Bible has. It is a best-seller, the most read and most translated book of all time, distancing itself significantly from other, more "authoritative"-considered books. At the same time it has also experienced great opposition, unlike any other book. People and governments have scorned it, ridiculed it, burned it and made laws against it. And yet the Word of God has survived and, as 1 Peter 1:25 prophesized, "endureth for ever". It is as applicable today as much as it was yesterday or will be tomorrow. It has different books, covering different topics, written in different places, over a period of 1600+ years, by different authors, ranging from kings and priests to fishermen and farmers. And yet its message is entirely consistent and in harmony, there is not one part which contradicts the other. There are minor differences in manuscripts, called variants, but none of these variants impact or change key Christian beliefs or claims. It describes one basic set of morals, one human failure - sin - and only one path to salvation - deliverance through faith in Christ. The Bible is also the only book in the world that has accurate prophecy. There are over 300 precise prophecies that deal with the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, including his family line, the nature of his ministry, his betrayal and death, and we even learn that the Messiah will come before the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. To say that these are fulfilled by chance is an astronomical improbability. We have historical, historiographical and archeological evidence to support the existence of Jesus. To determine whether he rose from the dead, we have forensic evidence (such as his burial cloth).

The examples from the Bible serve a purpose, in that one can find correspondence for them in science. Yet another example is the "golden ratio" or "divine proportion" (1.618), a mathematical formula that is found in many things in nature, forms the basis of art, architecture and music, it can be used across all disciplines. This number appears in the Bible long before it was discovered. In Exodus 25:10, God commands Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant - "Have them make an ark of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high." This ratio is as close to the golden number as one can get with simple numbers and the difference is not visible to the human eye. In Exodus 27:1, God commands him to build an altar. "Build an altar of acacia wood, three cubits high; it is to be square, five cubits long and five cubits wide." Again, the ratio is as close to this number as one can get with basic tools. He uses the same ratio for Noak's Ark in Genesis 6:15. The chances that the world and most everything that occupies it formed by itself from nothing and evolved into such a perfect ratio are close to nil.

One can also compare the history of the Scripture with what archeology or DNA studies, for example, have discovered and find conformity to those facts. I've already expanded on this in the thread about evolution, see the videos I've posted there (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235283-Darwinian-Evolution-is-highly-questionable&p=5127062&viewfull=1#post5127062). Christian faith does not rest on a shaky foundation. As a matter of fact, atheism takes much more of a leap of faith. Atheists believe that the universe came from nothing, that life can come from non-life, that consciousness emerged from matter. And yet none of this has been observed or replicated in a lab. As a matter of fact, studies point towards the other direction - it's rather the consciousness (or soul) that animates the body/inanimate. Thoughts (energies) can influence matter indirectly (via water which also happens to be just energy on a quantum level). There was a water experiment (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvzsjcBtx8) made by a Japanese professor, which aimed to prove that our feelings can influence matter.


If they are seeking Him earnestly, but aren't quite sure about their conviction, they can ask God to help strengthen their faith. It sounds circular, but it really has worked for people. God will never ask someone to wait when it comes to their salvation though. We are the only ones who can postpone our salvation, but ideally it shouldn't be something left "for later". (I've expanded on why here (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234209-Salvation-and-repentance-is-possible-after-death&p=4951726&viewfull=1#post4951726)). For all we know, we could die tonight or tomorrow, and is eternity really something to gamble? If there is even the remotest possibility that there is something after death - and as we've seen from the Bible, NDEs, visions, etc., there is - you wouldn’t want to be on the wrong side. Postponing one's salvation is like being on a plane without a parachute or oxygen mask. If there is the remotest possibility that we could fall to our death, we would want to have it. And God wants us to have it. He has already instructed us what we need to do in order to receive it - repent and trust in Jesus. Those are the only things. But God cannot do it for us, we have free will. The hardest part has already been done through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Now it's up to us whether we want to trust in His sacrifice. We can do that, and turn our life to Him, and when we are born again, He will miraculously open the eyes of our understanding, take us from darkness to light. We will have a new life and new desires. That is not to say that there won't be questions. But it is much easier to find direction in life once we have received the Holy Spirit.

If someone is demanding a specific form of personal revelation or sign/proof from God, His answer might not always be the one they want/expect. But God will only tell us "wait" when it benefits us more than "yes" or a "no" would. It also depends on why we are asking and what we are expecting. The Bible says that "God is a Spirit," a form of life that is invisible to the human eye. When God appeared directly to humans, it was always in the form of a messenger, e.g. an angel, a vision, a burning bush. God has different ways to speak to us, He chooses the one that benefits us and our spiritual growth most. Now if someone wants to experience God more directly because they want a closer relationship with Him, or need to strenghten their faith, God might oblige at the right time, but it also requires something from them, they have to be willing to believe and trust in Him and His will (we do, after all pray that "His will be done"). But again, the "wait" never concerns salvation. If we come before Him to receive it, follow Him and do as He instructed us through His word, He will bestow it unto us.


Awesome information you've provided, and also thank you for your response to my question.