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The Lawspeaker
03-18-2011, 11:11 PM
Vatican hails 'historic' ruling on crucifixes in schools.

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican on Friday welcomed as "historic" a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that said displaying crucifixes in schools in Italy did not breach the rights of non-Catholics.

"It is an important and historic ruling," Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi said in a statement, adding that the decision "has been welcomed with satisfaction by the Holy See."

The European Court of Human Rights ruled earlier that displaying crucifixes in schools in Italy did not breach the rights of non-Catholic families, overturning a previous decision.

Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini also welcomed the ruling on behalf of the government in Rome, saying: "Today Europe's popular sentiment won out."

The Strasbourg-based court initially ruled in November 2009 that displaying crucifixes in schools across Italy breached the rights of non-Catholics, drawing howls of anger from Church and political leaders in the staunchly Roman Catholic country.

In its ruling passed by 15 votes to two, the court said that "while the crucifix was above all a religious symbol, there was no evidence before the court that the display of such a symbol on classroom walls might have an influence on pupils".

The Vatican spokesman said the court had recognised "that the exhibition of the crucifix is not indoctrination but the expression of the cultural and religious identity of countries of a Christian tradition."

It also recognised "that the culture of human rights must not be inconsistent with the religious fundamentals of a European civilisation in which Christianity has made an essential contribution," said Lombardi.

He said the ruling showed that "each country is guaranteed a margin of appreciation in the value of religious symbols in its own cultural history and its own national identity."

The case was brought by Italian mother Soile Lautsi, whose two children attended a state school near Venice.

She was unhappy crucifixes were present in every classroom and complained to the school.

After education chiefs refused to remove the crosses, she spent several years fighting the decision through the Italian courts before taking the case to the Strasbourg court.

In November 2009, the court had ruled that displaying the cross was contrary to the right of parents to educate their children in line with their convictions and to "the right of children to freedom of religion and thought."

But on appeal the judges voted overwhelmingly that "states enjoyed a margin of appreciation in their efforts to reconcile the exercise of the functions they assumed in relation to education and teaching, with respect for the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.

"The Court therefore had a duty in principle to respect the states? decisions in those matters, including the place they accorded to religion, provided that those decisions did not lead to a form of indoctrination," it said.

The court said there was nothing to suggest that the authorities were intolerant of pupils who believed in other religions, were non-believers or who held non-religious philosophical convictions.

In addition, the applicants had not asserted that the presence of the crucifix in classrooms had encouraged the development of teaching practices with a proselytising tendency.

Catholicism has not been the state religion in Italy since 1984 but a decree dating from the 1930s Fascist area requiring the presence of a crucifix in schools was never revoked.

Staunchly Catholic Lithuania which had joined the case as a third party hailed the European court ruling.

Justice Minister Remigijus Simasius said it means "that the display of crucifixes in public places is not treated as a human rights breach in itself.
"I think it is welcome. It does not mean that crucifixes must appear in places where they had not been before. It is a personal issue, an issue for communities and a political issue in some cases," Simasius said.

Source: France24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20110318-vatican-hails-historic-ruling-crucifixes-schools) (18 March 2011)

askra
03-24-2011, 01:14 AM
i agree with EU, crucifixes are not a violation of human rights, but, sincerely, i don't understand the reason to hang a statue depicting a tortured man inside a school,
i think it is more useful hang a geographic chart, or something useful for educational purposes than a crucifix, on a classroom's wall.


this is a new interference of Vatican (a foreign country) in the italian social life

Bard
03-24-2011, 02:23 PM
i agree with EU, crucifixes are not a violation of human rights, but, sincerely, i don't understand the reason to hang a statue depicting a tortured man inside a school,
i think it is more useful hang a geographic chart, or something useful for educational purposes than a crucifix, on a classroom's wall.


this is a new interference of Vatican (a foreign country) in the italian social life

I agree, actually according to the 8th article of our costitution all the religions should receive the same treatment. So I would just ban crucifixes, korans, and all the religious stuff.
I would even be favourable to the removal of the religion hour. Religious people already force their children to follow the lessons of the nearest church, there is no need for another hour of bullshit at school.

Foxy
03-24-2011, 02:31 PM
Ok ok, I am atheist but the crucifix doesn't hurt me (not as an hijab would do), but it was put in public schools by Mussolini for first.
I'd prefer to see the Italian flag in schools honestly.

Bard
03-24-2011, 02:38 PM
Ok ok, I am atheist but the crucifix doesn't hurt me (not as an hijab would do), but it was put in public schools by Mussolini for first.
I'd prefer to see the Italian flag in schools honestly.

I believe that Mussolini wanted just to obtain the favour of the church (just like with the "patti lateranensi"), because it was much more powerful back then.
Right now the power of the church is fading away, they just try to grasp to what remains of their temporal power, interfering in political matters.

Foxy
03-24-2011, 02:51 PM
I believe that Mussolini wanted just to obtain the favour of the church (just like with the "patti lateranensi"), because it was much more powerful back then.
Right now the power of the church is fading away, they just try to grasp to what remains of their temporal power, interfering in political matters.

I agree.

Wyn
03-24-2011, 03:36 PM
i think it is more useful hang a geographic chart, or something useful for educational purposes than a crucifix, on a classroom's wall.

I doubt that crucifixes are taking up so much space that there is no longer room for 'geographic charts.'


this is a new interference of Vatican (a foreign country) in the italian social life

Where is the Vatican interference here?

askra
03-24-2011, 10:38 PM
I doubt that crucifixes are taking up so much space that there is no longer room for 'geographic charts.'

the sense of my comment is that exists places used for prayer (churches) and places used for education (schools). if you are religious believer, you will go in church for praying. not in school, where, at the contrary, are teached matters in contrast with catholic religion, as the evolution theory.


Where is the Vatican interference here?

it's the vatican that created the polemic about the crucifix in the schools in italy, after the protest of a woman that criticized its presence in the school attended by her daughter.

CelticTemplar
03-24-2011, 10:47 PM
http://10cities10years.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jesus-wins.jpg

Score one for the Catholics.

Murphy
03-25-2011, 12:03 AM
the sense of my comment is that exists places used for prayer (churches) and places used for education (schools). if you are religious believer, you will go in church for praying. not in school, where, at the contrary, are teached matters in contrast with catholic religion, as the evolution theory.

Though should not be separated. Children should be given Catholic education.. which includes children being taught that evolution is a myth.


it's the vatican that created the polemic about the crucifix in the schools in italy, after the protest of a woman that criticized its presence in the school attended by her daughter.

First of all you must recognise that the European Court's ruling effects all of the EU and not just Italy so the Vatican has every right to have its say.

The Lawspeaker
03-25-2011, 12:14 AM
Is the Vatican a full-fledged member of the EU ?

I have no problems with children getting Catholic education in a Catholic school (as a matter of fact I would send my kids there because of the relatively decent education they receive) but crucifixes and anything related to religion apart from Religion (looking at different religions like Christianity and some of the Eastern religions) as a subject should be kept out of the public education system.

Wyn
03-25-2011, 01:25 PM
the sense of my comment is that exists places used for prayer (churches) and places used for education (schools). if you are religious believer, you will go in church for praying.

That isn't what you said:


i think it is more useful hang a geographic chart, or something useful for educational purposes than a crucifix, on a classroom's wall.

You implied that there is an either/or decision to be made, that one cannot co-exist with the other.


not in school, where, at the contrary, are teached matters in contrast with catholic religion, as the evolution theory.

No Pope has infallibly declared the ToE to be incompatible with the Catholic religion.


it's the vatican that created the polemic about the crucifix in the schools in italy, after the protest of a woman that criticized its presence in the school attended by her daughter.

The Vatican has not interfered - as you claimed - as it does not have the power to do so. The European Court of Human Rights made the decision, and has the power to pass rulings across the European Union. If the ECHR had decided that displaying crucifixes did breach the rights of non-Catholics then there would be nothing that the Vatican City's administration could do about it.

Joe McCarthy
03-25-2011, 01:38 PM
It's safe to assume that once the cross is gone in Italy it won't be long before we see the crescent. Nature abhors a vacuum, and as Chesterton said, when men cease to believe in God they don't believe in nothing, they'll believe in anything.

The Lawspeaker
03-25-2011, 02:01 PM
It yet again shows that you don't know Europe. There is a difference between the public and the private education system (maybe that's something that you simply can't tell apart but it is there) and let me tell you one thing: Italy would be around the last place to go atheist. It's a very devout Catholic country and this merely was the question whether the crucifix should be displayed in a public school. I don't think it should - instead I believe that each classroom should have the Italian flag in it.

Peyrol
03-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Vatican hails 'historic' ruling on crucifixes in schools.

VATICAN CITY — The Vatican on Friday welcomed as "historic" a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that said displaying crucifixes in schools in Italy did not breach the rights of non-Catholics.

"It is an important and historic ruling," Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi said in a statement, adding that the decision "has been welcomed with satisfaction by the Holy See."

The European Court of Human Rights ruled earlier that displaying crucifixes in schools in Italy did not breach the rights of non-Catholic families, overturning a previous decision.

Italy's Foreign Minister Franco Frattini also welcomed the ruling on behalf of the government in Rome, saying: "Today Europe's popular sentiment won out."

The Strasbourg-based court initially ruled in November 2009 that displaying crucifixes in schools across Italy breached the rights of non-Catholics, drawing howls of anger from Church and political leaders in the staunchly Roman Catholic country.

In its ruling passed by 15 votes to two, the court said that "while the crucifix was above all a religious symbol, there was no evidence before the court that the display of such a symbol on classroom walls might have an influence on pupils".

The Vatican spokesman said the court had recognised "that the exhibition of the crucifix is not indoctrination but the expression of the cultural and religious identity of countries of a Christian tradition."

It also recognised "that the culture of human rights must not be inconsistent with the religious fundamentals of a European civilisation in which Christianity has made an essential contribution," said Lombardi.

He said the ruling showed that "each country is guaranteed a margin of appreciation in the value of religious symbols in its own cultural history and its own national identity."

The case was brought by Italian mother Soile Lautsi, whose two children attended a state school near Venice.

She was unhappy crucifixes were present in every classroom and complained to the school.

After education chiefs refused to remove the crosses, she spent several years fighting the decision through the Italian courts before taking the case to the Strasbourg court.

In November 2009, the court had ruled that displaying the cross was contrary to the right of parents to educate their children in line with their convictions and to "the right of children to freedom of religion and thought."

But on appeal the judges voted overwhelmingly that "states enjoyed a margin of appreciation in their efforts to reconcile the exercise of the functions they assumed in relation to education and teaching, with respect for the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.

"The Court therefore had a duty in principle to respect the states? decisions in those matters, including the place they accorded to religion, provided that those decisions did not lead to a form of indoctrination," it said.

The court said there was nothing to suggest that the authorities were intolerant of pupils who believed in other religions, were non-believers or who held non-religious philosophical convictions.

In addition, the applicants had not asserted that the presence of the crucifix in classrooms had encouraged the development of teaching practices with a proselytising tendency.

Catholicism has not been the state religion in Italy since 1984 but a decree dating from the 1930s Fascist area requiring the presence of a crucifix in schools was never revoked.

Staunchly Catholic Lithuania which had joined the case as a third party hailed the European court ruling.

Justice Minister Remigijus Simasius said it means "that the display of crucifixes in public places is not treated as a human rights breach in itself.
"I think it is welcome. It does not mean that crucifixes must appear in places where they had not been before. It is a personal issue, an issue for communities and a political issue in some cases," Simasius said.

Source: France24 (http://www.france24.com/en/20110318-vatican-hails-historic-ruling-crucifixes-schools) (18 March 2011)

I can agree with the removal of the Crucifix.

But only if, in its place, don't teachers hangs stars and crescent moons or David's stars.

Murphy
03-25-2011, 08:55 PM
I had posted this on another forum and I said that it was a minor victory, which it is. But many posters wisely pointed out that the European Court should have no right to rule either way on this issue. They were wrong before and they're wrong now.


No Pope has infallibly declared the ToE to be incompatible with the Catholic religion.

However the belief in Adam and Eve is a matter of the deposit of the faith binding on all the Faithful. Popular evolutionary theory is incompatible with the Faith.