Why Muslim countries are so weak and backward compared to some non-Muslim countries?

[Böri]

There are 1,5 billion Muslims around the world in circa 50 countries which are Muslim majority in population. Circa 20% of world population.
How come the total GDP of those Muslim nations can't reach that of Germany or also that of Japan?
How come there is not a single Muslim country as a world power?
How come there is not a single Muslim country among the permanent members of the UN?
How come there is not a single Muslim country which can produce a world-known brand of a certain tech product (like a car, plane etc)?
How come the 5 million Israel is a more stable state than the Arab countries all around which are in 200 millions?

Discuss.

[Gründig]

To me, it says something about the followers of that filth religion.

[Bosniensis]

In 1920 Ottoman Empire was the ruling force behind Islam, Arabs said NO, we hate Ottomans, Aligned themselves with English and murdered many Ottoman Soldiers.
Ottomans said: I hope you all die, and stupid beduins became slave of Anglo-Americans leading the whole Islamic World into DOOM.

Up to 1850 Islam was strong, very strong and united.

[Böri]

To me, it says something about the followers of that filth religion.

Is the problem with the faith itself or the quality of the bulk of Muslims?
Let's say if Islam had followers from more northernly peoples like Germanics or north Mongoloids (Japan, Korea etc) would it be a stronger religion today?


In 1920 Ottoman Empire was the ruling force behind Islam, Arabs said NO, we hate Ottomans, Aligned themselves with English and murdered many Ottoman Soldiers.
Ottomans said: I hope you all die, and stupid beduins became slave of Anglo-Americans leading the whole Islamic World into DOOM.

Up to 1850 Islam was strong, very strong and united.

The Ottoman empire didn't have a single factory left to the republic of Turkey in 1922. Purely backward agricultural society with a 89% illiterate population.
Ottomans being gone doesn't explain it. It was gone as a world power after Karlowitz Treaty in 1699. It was when they entered from stagnation to dissolving era.

[rein]

Civilisations rise and fall.

[Bosniensis]

Is the problem with the faith itself or the quality of the bulk of Muslims?
Let's say if Islam had followers from more northernly peoples like Germanics or north Mongoloids (Japan, Korea etc) would it be a stronger religion today?



The Ottoman empire didn't have a single factory left to the republic of Turkey in 1922. Purely backward agricultural society with a 89% illiterate population.
Ottomans being gone doesn't explain it. It was gone as a world power after Karlowitz Treaty in 1699. It was when they entered from stagnation to dissolving era.

LOL same with all other European Countries.

Industrialisation started 1900's man..

[renaissance12]

There are 1,5 billion Muslims around the world in circa 50 countries which are Muslim majority in population. Circa 20% of world population.
How come the total GDP of those Muslim nations can't reach that of Germany or also that of Japan?
How come there is not a single Muslim country as a world power?
How come there is not a single Muslim country among the permanent members of the UN?
How come there is not a single Muslim country which can produce a world-known brand of a certain tech product (like a car, plane etc)?
How come the 5 million Israel is a more stable state than the Arab countries all around which are in 200 millions?

Discuss.


Explanation: Islam...

Venetians were strong enough to challenge Ottoman Empire... One medium size town vs an Empire... Christians vs Muslim..

[Böri]

LOL same with all other European Countries.

Industrialisation started 1900's man..

In b4
Why Muslims couldn't colonize Americas, Australias? Why Muslim sailors couldn't discover new travel routes?
Why Muslims can't build stable instutions and states? Why Muslims were zero in Research and Development all over those centuries?

I said it to Turks in the Turkish section.
People compare Turks to Spanish on TA, TAers say Spain better.
But Spain in fact isn't better than Turkey, Turks would be stronger.

The problem is this: Turks have 'brothers in religion' people like Arabs, Iranians, Kurds, Bosniak :) etc...
Whereas Spaniards have 'brothers in relgion' people like Irish, German, Swiss etc
That is what makes difference.

[Böri]

Explanation: Islam...

Venetians were strong enough to challenge Ottoman Empire... One medium size town vs an Empire... Christians vs Muslim..

Yes the city of Venice controlling only 5% of total Mediterranean shores defeated and controlled seas against the Ottomans who controlled around 65% of Mediterranean Sea's shores.
Venetians did it by being able to develop better ships.
They had R&D while Ottomans obviously lacked.

[Bosniensis]

In b4
Why Muslims couldn't colonize Americas, Australias? Why Muslim sailors couldn't discover new travel routes?
Why Muslims can't build stable instutions and states? Why Muslims were zero in Research and Development all over those centuries?

I said it to Turks in the Turkish section.
People compare Turks to Spanish on TA, TAers say Spain better.
But Spain in fact isn't better than Turkey, Turks would be stronger.

The problem is this: Turks have 'brothers in religion' people like Arabs, Iranians, Kurds, Bosniak :) etc...
Whereas Spaniards have 'brothers in relgion' people like Irish, German, Swiss etc
That is what makes difference.

Iranians themselves have 1500x more success in everything than entire modern western world

If Iran ceased to exist today modern west would have to exist another 2000 years so it can compare with Iran


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Böri]

Iranians themselves have 1500x more success in everything than entire modern western world

If Iran ceased to exist today modern west would have to exist another 2000 years so it can compare with Iran

It’s just we have a minor setback but you have already surrendered ... cuck... like those migrants Keep whining


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You will reach Mars and meet aliens while producing honey with your bees my friend.
Just follow your Wahhabist local friends in your village.

I sometimes discuss with those Wahhabis. They tell that the Muslim world needs Turkey because Turkey is the strongest of all Muslim countries...
Right...
But modern Turkey, like said above, inherited NOTHING from the Ottomans except 90% illiterate population and purely agriculturalist backward society.
So Atatürk and his reforms made Turkey what it is now.
And Atatürk succeeded by staying away from MENA people and culture.

So, those Wahabbis who would insult Atatürk try to get what Atatürk has built (thanks to staying away from them), without a shame!

[Autrigón]

In b4
Why Muslims couldn't colonize Americas, Australias? Why Muslim sailors couldn't discover new travel routes?
Why Muslims can't build stable instutions and states? Why Muslims were zero in Research and Development all over those centuries?

I said it to Turks in the Turkish section.
People compare Turks to Spanish on TA, TAers say Spain better.
But Spain in fact isn't better than Turkey, Turks would be stronger.

The problem is this: Turks have 'brothers in religion' people like Arabs, Iranians, Kurds, Bosniak :) etc...
Whereas Spaniards have 'brothers in relgion' people like Irish, German, Swiss etc
That is what makes difference.Why do you compare Spain with Turkey? I can't find any similarities, Spain had a population about 5 millions in the XVI century when they conquered America, the Ottoman empire had a population about 40 millions.

At the present Spain has a population of 46 millions and Turkey has 80 millions.

Our brothers in religion means nothing, Europeans historically have been fighting between themselves until "yesterday".

[Böri]

Iran is a backward country by the way. They live off oil and gas in Communist social construct. They don't produce anything by working. Pretty much like those Gulf Arabs who live off gas and oil too w/o producing anything.
Turkey is more developed than Iran.

All these MENAs say to Turks that Atatürk legacy must be destroyed and Turkey must return to MENA with its strength and resource.
But wait a second...
Turkey got what he has thanks to Atatürk de-Arabizing Turkey...
If Atatürk followed the principles of the MENAs, today Turkey would be like Algeria at most.

So, where is the logics?

[Böri]

Why do you compare Spain with Turkey? I can't find any similarities, Spain had a population about 5 millions in the XVI century when they conquered America, the Ottoman empire had a population about 40 millions.

At the present Spain has a population of 46 millions and Turkey has 80 millions.

Our brothers in religion means nothing, Europeans historically have been fighting between themselves until "yesterday".

Your 'brothers in religion' sustain and support you.
You have backup from them.
Otherwise, I sincerely believe Turks could do a lot better than Spain.

But Turks have no support from their 'brothers in religion, pretty much contrary, they try to drag Turks where they are which is position even weaker than where Turkey is now.

[Bosniensis]

Iran is a backward country by the way. They live off oil and gas in Communist social construct. They don't produce anything by working. Pretty much like those Gulf Arabs who live off gas and oil too w/o producing anything.
Turkey is more developed than Iran.

All these MENAs say to Turks that Atatürk legacy must be destroyed and Turkey must return to MENA with its strength and resource.
But wait a second...
Turkey got what he has thanks to Atatürk de-Arabizing Turkey...
If Atatürk followed the principles of the MENAs, today Turkey would be like Algeria at most.

So, where is the logics?

Iran has so much success, that it's time for them to fail.

Whole world is Shit in comparison with Iran history.

And by the way, IRAN is their Ancient name not "Persia" as many imagine.

Iran is Iranshahr the state who had more Emperors than Roman Empire and any other Empire.

Who had more gold and power than any other nation in the world

Who had more technology than any other nation in the world.

You name it... IRAN invented it and had it.

Even today they are building nuclear reactors and what not.

[Böri]

Iran has so much success, that it's time for them to fail.

Whole world is Shit in comparison with Iran history.

And by the way, IRAN is their Ancient name not "Persia" as many imagine.

Iran is Iranshahr the state who had more Emperors than Roman Empire and any other Empire.

Who had more gold and power than any other nation in the world

Who had more technology than any other nation in the world.

You name it... IRAN invented it and had it.

Even today they are building nuclear reactors and what not.

That's from Sassanian era. After Arabs took Iran it became backward too.
Iranians supported Islam and contributed a lot to early Muslim civilization which was the most advanced around 9th century.

But ultimately that failed.

I strongly believe there are strong backward Arabian traditional elements in the Islam, in her phylosphy, those can't be purged from Islam and that makes Islam less popular faith than Xtianity and more of an Arab religion.

Just look at the Ottomans, they were bright until... taking the Middle East.
After Ottomans met the MENA in 16th century, the downfall started.

[Kivan]

Your 'brothers in religion' sustain and support you.
You have backup from them.
Otherwise, I sincerely believe Turks could do a lot better than Spain.

But Turks have no support from their 'brothers in religion, pretty much contrary, they try to drag Turks where they are which is position even weaker than where Turkey is now.

True. And then people criticize me when I say that the country should be aligned/associated with the west. Turkey needs more Arabo-Iranian influence and ""support"" in the same way a healthy body needs cancer.

[Marmara]

Because Muslims are retarded shit people. I believe it's not entirely related to religion but culture and interpretation of the religion.

[Dandelion]

Turks need to become more secular again and digest/civilise the backward villager boom it had underwent.

[Böri]

True. And then people criticize me when I say that the country should be aligned/associated with the west. Turkey needs more Arabo-Iranian influence and ""support"" in the same way a healthy body needs cancer.

The Arab-supremacist MENA logic is crazy is shameless in this regard.
It's like a lazy man who hates working because of his personal phylosophy... He sees his friend working... Then this friend produces, say, an apple...
The lazy tells the producer 'yeah you have an apple now, let us share it. But then you will become like me again'

[Dandelion]

Turks liked the bellicose nature of Islam as the straightforward conquerors they always were. Turkish culture, though, is more Earthly and the totalitarianism and death cult aspects just aren't that compatable with the Turkish soul. Converting to Islam was a mistake.

[Autrigón]

Your 'brothers in religion' sustain and support you.
You have backup from them.
Otherwise, I sincerely believe Turks could do a lot better than Spain.

But Turks have no support from their 'brothers in religion, pretty much contrary, they try to drag Turks where they are which is position even weaker than where Turkey is now.What support? Spain had a Civil War 1936-1939, "our" dictator (Franco) supported Nazi Germany, so after the WWII Spain was isolated, destroyed and without Marshall Plan who helped Western Europe.

We ALONE had tho rebuild the country and recovered it economically. The recovering was named "The Spanish miracle": Spain from 1959 to 1974 enjoyed the second highest growth rate in the world, only slightly behind Japan.

Again, I dont understand the comparision. You can only compare two similar countries, with similar geographical size, similar history, similar population size, similar geographical location, etc.

[Autrigón]

Your 'brothers in religion' sustain and support you.
You have backup from them.
Otherwise, I sincerely believe Turks could do a lot better than Spain.

But Turks have no support from their 'brothers in religion, pretty much contrary, they try to drag Turks where they are which is position even weaker than where Turkey is now.What support? Spain had a Civil war 1936-1939, our dictator (Franco) supported Nazi Germany, so after the WWII Spain was isolated, destroyed and without Marshall Plan who helped Western Europe.

We ALONE had tho rebuild the country and recovered it economically. The recovering was named "The Spanish miracle": Spain from 1959 to 1974 enjoyed the second highest growth rate in the world, only slightly behind Japan.

Again, I dont understand the comparision. You can only compare two similar countries, with similar geographical size, similar history, similar population size, similar geographical location, etc.

[Marmara]

Turks liked the bellicose nature of Islam as the straightforward conquerors they always were. Turkish culture, though, is more Earthly and the totalitarianism and death cult aspects just aren't that compatable with the Turkish soul. Converting to Islam was a mistake.

I think converting to Islam was a reasonable thing to do.

There were 2 major civilizations bordering Turks, Muslim and Chinese, so converting to İslam or Buddhism to have access to these civilizations was a smart idea.

Real problem is what we're facing now.

[Böri]

What support? Spain had a Civil War 1936-1939, "our" dictator (Franco) supported Nazi Germany, so after the WWII Spain was isolated, destroyed and without Marshall Plan who helped Western Europe.

We ALONE had tho rebuild the country and recovered it economically. The recovering was named "The Spanish miracle": Spain from 1959 to 1974 enjoyed the second highest growth rate in the world, only slightly behind Japan.

Again, I dont understand the comparision. You can only compare two similar countries, with similar geographical size, similar history, similar population size, similar geographical location, etc.

Again,
If Catholic Nazis and Catholic Fascist Italians were involved in Spanish civil war, that's because they cared for you whom they considered as 'brothers in the civilization and fellow sons of Vatican,... Later all these nations helped Spain rebuild. France too.
Later they took you inside the EU and gave you funds to rebuild and catch up with the richer brother.

Or if we go a few centuries back, Spaniards had strong allies in the Med against Ottomans such as Venetians etc.

Turks vs. Spaniards in a comparison, Turks lose because of this lack of similar level brothers in religion.

Turks are alone. Not only that, nowadays 'brothers in religion' of Turks try to drag Turks to their even more backward level through Arabization. All happening 'on name of God'

[renaissance12]

Turks must return to Christianity as they were few hundreds years ago.

[Böri]

I think converting to Islam was a reasonable thing to do.

There were 2 major civilizations bordering Turks, Muslim and Chinese, so converting to İslam or Buddhism to have access to these civilizations was a smart idea.

Real problem is what we're facing now.

We must not forget that back then, the Turks never ever saw any Arab or Arabized population.
The people who converted Turks were Iranic elements in south central Asia (modern Uzbekistan etc).

LoL they didn't talk about how Arabs were xD


Turks must return to Christianity as they were few hundreds years ago.

We were Tengrist before the current situation... Never been Christian.
Also best of Christianity isn't Orthodoxy, or not even Catholicism but Lutherans ;)

[Marmara]

Pakistanis celebrating Turkey's doom.

https://youtu.be/BG12eP89uRY

[Marmara]

Turks must return to Christianity as they were few hundreds years ago.

Is this a joke?

[Kamal900]

Isn't Turkey the same backwater as other Muslim nations? I'm living in a Muslim nation and it's nowhere near as corrupt as other Muslim countries. Mohammed Ali Pasha would have destroyed the Ottoman empire if the western powers didn't begged him not to do it. Name me a couple of Turkish philosophers and scientists from the Abbasid and Ottoman periods. Persians were civilized which they were responsible in converting your lot to Islam which some Arab historians claim it was a mistake. Go and admit the Armenian genocide was real and give the Kurds their rights. Otherwise, don't hypocritically talk about the backwardness of other countries.

[Marmara]

Isn't Turkey the same backwater as other Muslim nations?

Yes, but not entirely.

Islamist backwardness dominate the politics but many Turks are fighting against it.

[Böri]

Isn't Turkey the same backwater as other Muslim nations? I'm living in a Muslim nation and it's nowhere near as corrupt as other Muslim countries. Mohammed Ali Pasha would have destroyed the Ottoman empire if the western powers didn't begged him not to do it. Name me a couple of Turkish philosophers and scientists from the Abbasid and Ottoman periods. Persians were civilized which they were responsible in converting your lot to Islam which some Arab historians claim it was a mistake. Go and admit the Armenian genocide was real and give the Kurds their rights. Otherwise, don't hypocritically talk about the backwardness of other countries.

Young Turks, who were the forerunners of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk helped the Ottoman state de-Arabize.
That's how some wars were won and Turkey survived (at least surviving until now).

After Ottoman padishah Selim I took the Dulkadirids and entered Syrian in 1516, we started to be doomed to fail.
We started to turn backward.
All that powerful state which Ottoman was, that started to become a tool in the hands of Arabian ulemas which made her fail.

Atatürk tried to save us, but the people didn't understand him.
Nowadays they are starting to realize how much Atatürk was right to literally put land mines on Syrian and Iraqi borders.

[Megadorian]

Up to 1850 Islam was strong, very strong and united.

+1

However the Ottoman army became monopolized by balkanite vezirs, pashas, padishahs as early as middle 16th century, that's the real driving gear of their power, Ottoman de jure but balkanite de facto, with the massive influx of turkified anatolians and islamized albanians, greeks, bosnians etc it became so powerful to challange easily other world powers

[Böri]

+1

However the Ottoman army became monopolized by balkanite vezirs, pashas, padishahs as early as middle 16th century, that's the real driving gear of their power, Ottoman de jure but balkanite de facto, with the massive influx of turkified anatolians and islamized albanians, greeks, bosnians etc it became so powerful to challange easily other world powers

Nope. You fail to understand.
Which is normal considering that you are an Orthodox Greek from Crete island occupied by Arabs for centuries.

Orthodox are backward too. Actually Ottomans were more advanced than Orthodox before the 16th century Arabization of Turkish state and institutions.

If Russia became what it became, that's by getting away from the Byzantine Orthodox culture they had.

[Marmara]

+1

However the Ottoman army became monopolized by balkanite vezirs, pashas, padishahs as early as middle 16th century, that's the real driving gear of their power, Ottoman de jure but balkanite de facto, with the massive influx of turkified anatolians and islamized albanians, greeks, bosnians etc it became so powerful to challange easily other world powers

Padishahs? :rotfl:

Devshirmes were nothing special. They were employed by Padishah to form a more authoritarian rule. Turkish nobility was much more questioning and rebellious and Sultans didn't like it.

Turkish elites in the late period were much more progressive.

[Kamal900]

Young Turks, who were the forerunners of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk helped the Ottoman state de-Arabize.
That's how some wars were won and Turkey survived (at least surviving until now).

After Ottoman padishah Selim I took the Dulkadirids and entered Syrian in 1516, we started to be doomed to fail.
We started to turn backward.
All that powerful state which Ottoman was, that started to become a tool in the hands of Arabian ulemas which made her fail.

Atatürk tried to save us, but the people didn't understand him.
Nowadays they are starting to realize how much Atatürk was right to literally put land mines on Syrian and Iraqi borders.

Then you know nothing about your own culture and history. The Ottomans were heavily Persianized in both culture and politics as what the Seljuks were. Yeah..the young Turks, who were responsible in ethnic cleansing of millions of Christians out of Turkey to create a homogeneous Turkish state, are somehow heroes in your eyes. You should ask the Azeris on how backward they are when they got their asses kicked by the Armenians or how they still have a dictator still sucking up the oil money all for himself and his family. Hell, it's even more corrupt than Saudi Arabia according to the recent corrupt index studies. Turkey was meddling with Syria's affairs back in the 80's to steal more land to create the Ataturk dam in coastal Syria by agitating the Turkmen populace there against the Assad dynasty which they retaliated by supporting the PKK. I mean, why not talk about the backwardness of other Turkic countries like Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan and so on? Most Arabs and Iranians didn't even knew Turkey's existence until Erdogan came to power.

[Marmara]

Late Ottoman period although in decline, it was much more advanced because it was progressive.

Devshirmes (Janissaries) were against progress, that's why they had to be butchered in Auspicious Incident.

[lameduck]

Religious conservatism hampers crtical thinking, Pakistan should learn from Turkey if West is too much to follow.

[Böri]

The progress in the early Muslim civilization around the 8th century was far from Arabic regions. They were mostly around Iran and Hispania for good reason.
The progress and conquests of Ottomans in the Balkans and the supremacy against Orthodoxes were virtually all prior to they turned to Middle East and met Arabs, for good reason too.

And these Arabs today, they are trying to spread their culture and elements to Turkey as if they were auspicious things.
Sorry Arabs, your culture and mentality literally oppose the progress and stability.
I mean just look at Wahhabis and the other groups. Just look at what happens in Arab countries with women, dictatorships etc.

Our best days were when we were far away from your cultural and ideological domination :)
Be that early Seljuk era..
Early Ottoman era...
Late Ottoman Young Turk era...
Pre-AKP Republican era...

[Bosniensis]

Late Ottoman period although in decline, it was much more advanced because it was progressive.

Devshirmes (Janissaries) were against progress, that's why they had to be butchered in Auspicious Incident.

After Nizam Reforms Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Ottoman Empire did not collapse because of Balkan people and Janissaries, but because of Turan Turkic Yoke.

It was powerful as long it was run by Balkaners.

[Marmara]

After Nizam Reforms Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Ottoman Empire did not collapse because of Balkan people and Janissaries, but because of Turan Turkic Yoke.

It was powerful as long it was run by Balkaners.

Ottoman Empire would truly collapse and there would be no successor of it without Tanzimat.

We just replaced Ottoman Empire with a better one.

Ottoman Empire was in decline before reforms.

[Böri]

After Nizam Reforms Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Ottoman Empire did not collapse because of Balkan people and Janissaries, but because of Turan Turkic Yoke.

It was powerful as long it was run by Balkaners.

He is right. Balkanites were on the pro-Arab bigot side trying to prevent Mahmud II's reforms. Mahmud II needed to bring Tanzimat by slaughtering Janissaries and Balkan landloards and feodal leaders (esp. Albanians).
Ultimately Ottomans tried to make reform but the established Arabian system through the Caliphate institutions made it impossible.

[Bosniensis]

Ottoman Empire would truly collapse and there would be no successor of it without Tanzimat.

We just replaced Ottoman Empire with a better one.

You have betrayed people who served in that Empire just like Arabs have betrayed you.

You have brutally destroyed Slavic, Greek culture in Turkey... WHY?

Those cultures existed up to 1850 untouched... but no you had to make Turan World.

It will all vanish the way it came to be.

[Böri]

You have betrayed people who served in that Empire just like Arabs have betrayed you.

You have brutally destroyed Slavic, Greek culture in Turkey... WHY?

Those cultures existed up to 1850 untouched... but no you had to make Turan World.

It will all vanish the way it came to be.

Yeah it will be painted in Arab colors again.

[Marmara]

You have betrayed people who served in that Empire just like Arabs have betrayed you.

You have brutally destroyed Slavic, Greek culture in Turkey... WHY?

Those cultures existed up to 1850 untouched... but no you had to make Turan World.

It will all vanish the way it came to be.

Tanzimat had nothing to do with Nationalism or Turanism. It in fact gave additional rights to minorities. It did cause a western ideological influence which eventually led the rise of Turkish nationalism though.

[Bosniensis]

Tanzimat had nothing to do with Nationalism or Turanism. It in fact gave additional rights to minorities. It did cause a western ideological influence which eventually led the rise of Turkish nationalism though.

Gave right? That was just an intro to terror

Later Attaturk reforms forced many non-Turks to become Turkfied: Name Changes, Last name Changes and what not.

Terror.

[Böri]

Gave right? That was just an intro to terror

Later Attaturk reforms forced many non-Turks to become Turkfied: Name Changes, Last name Changes and what not.

Terror.

Yes and during Atatürk era, people became literate, which was no case during the centuries of Arabization.
Factories and railways were built all around Turkey.
Turkey witnessed its most developed era it never faced since Arabization of Ottomans.
Turkey even entered NATO and sent troops to the other side of the world like modern nations did.

Also why do you care, we have not changed names of Muslim Serbs like you who live somewhere in the Balkans.

[StonyArabia]

Muslim countries are weak because of the following legacies:

Brutality of the Crusades and it's destruction of many scientific work as well.
Mongol destruction of Baghdad, lots of books were thrown, the best minds were killed, a new Desert society formed to due to Desertification.
Timurid rule in the Mideast did not help
Mamlukes who became patron of Arab culture and tried to model their system on the original caliphate often tried to protect the area from outsiders, and it was limited in it's capacity unlike the Abassaids.
Ottoman stagnation
Ottoman-Persian rivalry(Safavid. Afsharids). Safavids and Afsharids also caused destruction and did not bring any intellectual element but carnage and bloodshed.
European colonial deception, hence the Arab revolt
European/American aka Western neo-colonial policies
Arab traitor leaders, strong and loyal Arab leaders are killed or defamed by globalist Western media through black propaganda
Ethnic strife and tribalism(Syria, Iraq, Lebanon)
Arab-Persian rivalry
North Africa does not maintain strong links to the Mideast like before, and has strong French influence and to lesser extent Spanish.
Iraq war of 2003, but they ganged up on it like bunch of cowards.
Iraq and no Arab nations can unite more like not allowed to, hence Iraq could not get Kuwait back
They can't industrialize or built their own material, and the governments have to support neo-colonial measures
The Iraqi government post 2003 is a great example of that, these rats actually invest in Western nations U.S and Britain, and plundering the money of the nation, thus neo-colonial agents.
Use minorities to cry oppression and create work of propaganda throughout the Muslim world, Arab and non Arab alike
Create fake Islamist movements to tear nations apart
Support both radical Sunni and Shia groups for their own benefit, aka divide and conquer.
Most Muslims flee to their nations to the West, and thus they don't build their own nations
They have become dependent only on natural resources oil/gas rather than being innovative like before
People in Iraq, Afghanistan ect are destroyed by war and neocolonial policies and just want to live.
Demoralization and shock

[Asht]

Because muslims don't like progress. They love their backward 1000 year old practices and nothing will change till religion change

[Marmara]

Gave right? That was just an intro to terror

Later Attaturk reforms forced many non-Turks to become Turkfied: Name Changes, Last name Changes and what not.

Terror.

Lol xD There were no surnames before Ataturk. He enacted the surname law, and yes people were demanded to have Turkish surnames, so what? Non-Muslims were not required to have Turkish names or Surnames.


Muslim countries are weak because of the following legacies:

Brutality of the Crusades and it's destruction of many scientific work as well.
Mongol destruction of Baghdad, lots of books were thrown, the best minds were killed, a new Desert society formed to due to Desertification.
Timurid rule in the Mideast did not help
Mamlukes who became patron of Arab culture and tried to model their system on the original caliphate often tried to protect the area from outsiders, and it was limited in it's capacity unlike the Abassaids.
Ottoman stagnation
Ottoman-Persian rivalry(Safavid. Afsharids). Safavids and Afsharids also caused destruction and did not bring any intellectual element but carnage and bloodshed.
European colonial deception, hence the Arab revolt
European/American aka Western neo-colonial policies
Arab traitor leaders, strong and loyal Arab leaders are killed or defamed by globalist Western media through black propaganda
Ethnic strife and tribalism(Syria, Iraq, Lebanon)
Arab-Persian rivalry
North Africa does not maintain strong links to the Mideast like before, and has strong French influence and to lesser extent Spanish.
Iraq war of 2003, but they ganged up on it like bunch of cowards.
Iraq and no Arab nations can unite more like not allowed to, hence Iraq could not get Kuwait back
They can't industrialize or built their own material, and the governments have to support neo-colonial measures
The Iraqi government post 2003 is a great example of that, these rats actually invest in Western nations U.S and Britain, and plundering the money of the nation, thus neo-colonial agents.
Use minorities to cry oppression and create work of propaganda throughout the Muslim world, Arab and non Arab alike
Create fake Islamist movements to tear nations apart
Support both radical Sunni and Shia groups for their own benefit, aka divide and conquer.
Most Muslims flee to their nations to the West, and thus they don't build their own nations
They have become dependent only on natural resources oil/gas rather than being innovative like before
People in Iraq, Afghanistan ect are destroyed by war and neocolonial policies and just want to live.
Demoralization and shock

Some of those events are too far back in history to be excuses. There was no white man in Americas before the late 15th century, but now USA is a superpower.

Modern Muslims are culturally backward. Timurids or Mongols couldn't be the reason why over 90% of Egyptian females get their genitals mutilated today.

[Bosniensis]

Muslim countries are weak because of the following legacies:

Brutality of the Crusades and it's destruction of many scientific work as well.
Mongol destruction of Baghdad, lots of books were thrown, the best minds were killed, a new Desert society formed to due to Desertification.
Timurid rule in the Mideast did not help
Mamlukes who became patron of Arab culture and tried to model their system on the original caliphate often tried to protect the area from outsiders, and it was limited in it's capacity unlike the Abassaids.
Ottoman stagnation
Ottoman-Persian rivalry(Safavid. Afsharids). Safavids and Afsharids also caused destruction and did not bring any intellectual element but carnage and bloodshed.
European colonial deception, hence the Arab revolt
European/American aka Western neo-colonial policies
Arab traitor leaders, strong and loyal Arab leaders are killed or defamed by globalist Western media through black propaganda
Ethnic strife and tribalism(Syria, Iraq, Lebanon)
Arab-Persian rivalry
North Africa does not maintain strong links to the Mideast like before, and has strong French influence and to lesser extent Spanish.
Iraq war of 2003, but they ganged up on it like bunch of cowards.
Iraq and no Arab nations can unite more like not allowed to, hence Iraq could not get Kuwait back
They can't industrialize or built their own material, and the governments have to support neo-colonial measures
The Iraqi government post 2003 is a great example of that, these rats actually invest in Western nations U.S and Britain, and plundering the money of the nation, thus neo-colonial agents.
Use minorities to cry oppression and create work of propaganda throughout the Muslim world, Arab and non Arab alike
Create fake Islamist movements to tear nations apart
Support both radical Sunni and Shia groups for their own benefit, aka divide and conquer.
Most Muslims flee to their nations to the West, and thus they don't build their own nations
They have become dependent only on natural resources oil/gas rather than being innovative like before
People in Iraq, Afghanistan ect are destroyed by war and neocolonial policies and just want to live.
Demoralization and shock

Oh cry me a river.... kmeee.


Why haven't you destroyed crusaders and invaded back?

Because you love doing nothing and swiming in oil.

Typical Arab Cuck.

[Marmara]

My criticism includes my fellow backward Turks.

[StonyArabia]

Some of those events are too far back in history to be excuses. There was no white man in Americas before the late 15th century, but now USA is a superpower.

Yes, but these are it's outcomes, plus the West was always rival to the East.


Modern Muslims are culturally backward. Timurids or Mongols couldn't be the reason why over 90% of Egyptian females get their genitals mutilated today.

Egypt has some pre-Arab, pre-Islamic traditions in it's culture, which can be backwards of course. However the center of civilization or Mideast civilization is thanks to the Mongol and Timurid barbarians who burned Mesopotamia and the Levant. It also did not help with the Ottoman and their Persian rivals like the Safavids and Afsharids having perpetual warfare.

[Böri]

European colonialism is sure reason. But how come Arabs who were once able to direct troops to Hispania turned so backwards? In the beginning, you see the Arabs conquering some people, then those people bring their output and that helped Islam grow.
Like Iranians building state institutions for Arabs and Berbers conquering Hispania for Arabs. Then, when those people were culturally (and sometimes ethnically too) Arabised, they started to fail too. How come?

The same happened with Ottomans too. Once they turned to Middle East and adopt Arabic institutions and ways, straight in the 16th century they started to fail.

[Marmara]

Muslims are so dumb, close their ears don't want to hear any criticism and circlejerk among each other.

There is always an excuse, in Turkey ofc people also make excuses.

In Turkey a backward person would either blame someone else for Turkey's backwardness or deny it completely, and claim Turkey is the most developed country, and any statistics against this is fabricated.

[Kamal900]

The progress in the early Muslim civilization around the 8th century was far from Arabic regions. They were mostly around Iran and Hispania for good reason.
The progress and conquests of Ottomans in the Balkans and the supremacy against Orthodoxes were virtually all prior to they turned to Middle East and met Arabs, for good reason too.

And these Arabs today, they are trying to spread their culture and elements to Turkey as if they were auspicious things.
Sorry Arabs, your culture and mentality literally oppose the progress and stability.
I mean just look at Wahhabis and the other groups. Just look at what happens in Arab countries with women, dictatorships etc.

Our best days were when we were far away from your cultural and ideological domination :)
Be that early Seljuk era..
Early Ottoman era...
Late Ottoman Young Turk era...
Pre-AKP Republican era...

In Iraq, Egypt and Syria were the main centers of learning in the Abbasid period. Both Persians and Arabs have made many contributions. Lol, look at your kind. What kind of a progressive society in taking the rights of Kurds and other minority native groups away from them, a country that has one of the worst human rights abuses in the so called secular world and it's continuous denial of it's role on the genocide of countless Christians? Don't self project things on us. We are aware of the problems that are occurring in our own lands. Best days? Even Kemal Ataturk never regarded the Ottomans or anything that is related to the middle east as "best days" in Turkish history.

[StonyArabia]

European colonialism is sure reason. But how come Arabs who were once able to direct troops to Hispania turned so backwards? In the beginning, you see the Arabs conquering some people, then those people bring their output and that helped Islam grow.
Like Iranians building state institutions for Arabs and Berbers conquering Hispania for Arabs. Then, when those people were culturally (and sometimes ethnically too) Arabised, they started to fail too. How come?

They did not. Persia intellectual capabilities was destroyed by the Safavids and Afsharids if anything more the first, than the latter. pre-Safavid Persia was actually still capable. North Africa was not advanced during the Arab conquest, in fact they were quite similar having some areas that were advanced, well others not, in fact North Africa had similar cultural elements, climate to Arabia, hence it was easily Arabized culturally and linguistically only. The Arab world fell to due to the Crusades and Mongols. Also internal infighting


The same happened with Ottomans too. Once they turned to Middle East and adopt Arabic institutions and ways, straight in the 16th century they started to fail.

They did not, the Ottomans were in decline due to the heavy wars with the Safavids and later Afsharids and other "Persian" dynasties

[Vojnik]

Because their faith doesn't allow room to grow and develop. It leaves them stuck in the 7th century Arabia, when it was invented.

[Methuselah]

Poor education (a very bad thing for any type of business and economic growth), total lack of democracy (human right issues) all lead to the bottomless pit of despair. Some countries like Singapore (Asia's own Switzerland) do have a significant Muslim population but i don't know if any Muslim country is doing well. Maybe Malaysia. Islam needs some real ass reformation, there is no other way to get to that "we have human rights" thing.

Girls to school, more rights for women, more freedom for people, more money for schools, more rights to vote. If Muslim countries want to flourish they should look up to West, Europe, Japan, South Korea and Israel. The last two are perfect examples of from rags to riches in a short time grand hustle.

[Böri]

In Iraq, Egypt and Syria were the main centers of learning in the Abbasid period. Both Persians and Arabs have made many contributions. Lol, look at your kind. What kind of a progressive society in taking the rights of Kurds and other minority native groups away from them, a country that has one of the worst human rights abuses in the so called secular world and it's continuous denial of it's role on the genocide of countless Christians? Don't self project things on us. We are aware of the problems that are occurring in our own lands. Best days? Even Kemal Ataturk never regarded the Ottomans or anything that is related to the middle east as "best days" in Turkish history.

Atatürk actually said that best days Ottomans had in history were those days before turning to Middle East and bringing Arabian caliphate. He was perfectly right considering the course of history since Arabian input happened to degenerate Ottomans.
In the start of Islam, Persians built state institutions for the Arabs and the intellectual activity in the greater Arab world was never in regions like Damascus, Hejaz or Egypt. Either in Spain or in the Iranian sphere, which means off-Arab regions.

The Arab culture is backward in itself and when that joins with the spreading of a religion, the religion itself just becomes like the Arab culture itself. Beside, Turks won't ask you how to run a state or how to do inside since obviously Turks are way better at running states.

[StonyArabia]

Atatürk actually said that best days Ottomans had in history were those days before turning to Middle East and bringing Arabian caliphate. He was perfectly right considering the course of history since Arabian input happened to degenerate Ottomans.
Persians built state institutions for the Arabs and the intellectual activity in the greater Arab world was never in regions like Damascus, Hejaz or Egypt. Either in Spain or in the Iranian sphere, which means off-Arab regions.

The Arab culture is backward in itself and when that joins with the spreading of a religion, the religion itself just becomes like the Arab culture itself. Beside, Turks won't ask you how to run a state or how to do inside since obviously Turks are way better at running states.

LOL

Only the Abbassaids had Persian elements. The Ummyads never borrowed from Persians anything, and only few things. The center was Egypt, Iraq and Syria, Iran was always secondary. Only when the Abassaids came to power that Persian influence would be important. Sadly it was a Persian vizier Ibn Al-Qami who betrayed the Abbassids and opened the gates to Hulgue Khan. Hulgue Khan humiliated that traitor scum, saying to him well if you betrayed your people/nation how can I trust you. That traitor died from depression on one account, well other's say Hulgue gave him the throne which he dreamed of, and then beheaded him with those insulting words.

If anything Turks made the mideast backwards, especially if we look at the Safavids, who I don't think were Turkic originally, or the Afshars, or any other "Persian" dynasties, and the Timurids who were Turko-Mongols, thus Turks lol.

[Marmara]

They did not, the Ottomans were in decline due to the heavy wars with the Safavids and later Afsharids and other "Persian" dynasties

Ottomans were in decline because of backwardness, nothing else. Every aspect of Ottomans was outdated, military was outdated, bureaucracy was outdated, mentality was outdated.

[Kamal900]

Atatürk actually said that best days Ottomans had in history were those days before turning to Middle East and bringing Arabian caliphate. He was perfectly right considering the course of history since Arabian input happened to degenerate Ottomans.
In the start of Islam, Persians built state institutions for the Arabs and the intellectual activity in the greater Arab world was never in regions like Damascus, Hejaz or Egypt. Either in Spain or in the Iranian sphere, which means off-Arab regions.

The Arab culture is backward in itself and when that joins with the spreading of a religion, the religion itself just becomes like the Arab culture itself. Beside, Turks won't ask you how to run a state or how to do inside since obviously Turks are way better at running states.

Yes. Off Arabian regions. Many Arab tribes began migrating to these areas and founded many school of thought by mixing Persian and local cultures together. Please, Turk. Find me any evidence that supports your claims. The Ottomans were already backwards from the very beginning with no universities or colleges ever being built. A love how you Turks love to blame others for your backwardness. Oh? Then why all Turkic countries are poor and backwards then? I mean, Persian culture is very widespread in central and south Asia, not Arabian. We Arabs had a culture for over 3,000 years from the ancient Qedarites, Nabateans alongside with other non-Arab Arabians like the Sabaeans, Himyarites and so on where the Romans called Yemen as Arabian Felix or happy Arabia in latin. Many Arab tribes that had settled in the Levant are descendants from these Arabian peoples. Turks are better? Ho ho ho, you Turks couldn't even beat the Kurdish guerrilla fighters in Kurdistan let alone run a government like any civilized western countries like France or the UK.

[Böri]

LOL

Only the Abbassaids had Persian elements. The Ummyads never borrowed from Persians anything, and only few things. The center was Egypt, Iraq and Syria, Iran was always secondary. Only when the Abassaids came to power that Persian influence would be important. Sadly it was a Persian vizier Ibn Al-Qami who betrayed the Abbassids and opened the gates to Hulgue Khan. Hulgue Khan humiliated that traitor scum, saying to him well if you betrayed your people/nation how can I trust you. That traitor died from depression on one account, well other's say Hulgue gave him the throne which he dreamed of, and then beheaded him with those insulting words.

If anything Turks made the mideast backwards, especially if we look at the Safavids, who I don't think were Turkic originally, or the Afshars, or any other "Persian" dynasties, and the Timurids who were Turko-Mongols, thus Turks lol.

Most Muslim scholars from early civilizational thriving are either in Spain or they are ethnically Persians. That's known.
Today the Turks have more educated, freer populations than Arabs have. Turks have stronger state institutions too wholly.
And that's thanks to Atatürk who did that by removing Middle Eastern elements in the country.
You can't keep blaming your failure on 13th century events.

Like a member told here, Arabs are stuck to 7th century and they insist in, not only staying there themselves, but also dragging other Muslim majority countries to that point.

[StonyArabia]

Ottomans were in decline because of backwardness, nothing else. Every aspect of Ottomans was outdated, military was outdated, bureaucracy was outdated, mentality was outdated.

Yes, but the Safavids were a distraction and they never allowed the Ottomans to advance. Iraq became a battle ground for 150 years for example. Not to mention the carnage they created in Iran, thus their own people. Let alone what happened to Iraq from massacres, raped, looting, destruction of hospitals.

[Mraz]

GDP can't reach Germany of Japan because Muslim nations are not focused on productivity and work, those 2 nations are masters in that field.
It's a mindset, either you got it or you don't, obviously Islam doesn't value productivity as much as modern ideologies. Also most of those countries are not even industrialized so even if they wanted to
produce a lot more, it would be a failure.

[Böri]

Yes. Off Arabian regions. Many Arab tribes began migrating to these areas and founded many school of thought by mixing Persian and local cultures together. Please, Turk. Find me any evidence that supports your claims. The Ottomans were already backwards from the very beginning with no universities or colleges ever being built. A love how you Turks love to blame others for your backwardness. Oh? Then why all Turkic countries are poor and backwards then? I mean, Persian culture is very widespread in central and south Asia, not Arabian. We Arabs had a culture for over 3,000 years from the ancient Qedarites, Nabateans alongside with other non-Arab Arabians like the Sabaeans, Himyarites and so on where the Romans called Yemen as Arabian Felix or happy Arabia in latin. Many Arab tribes that had settled in the Levant are descendants from these Arabian peoples. Turks are better? Ho ho ho, you Turks couldn't even beat the Kurdish guerrilla fighters in Kurdistan let alone run a government like any civilized western countries like France or the UK.

Kurds became a problem for us because they are Muslims and every time serious steps will be taken, a Muzzie religious leader comes and stops Turks.

That's because of religion if we succeeded in defeating non-Muslim Greek insurgencies but couldn't do same with Muslim Kurds' insurgencies. Religion is a negative aspect here.

What Arabian culture? There is no Arab culture. It was Berbers in the west, Persians in the east.

[Aren]

Nope. You fail to understand.
Which is normal considering that you are an Orthodox Greek from Crete island occupied by Arabs for centuries.

Orthodox are backward too. Actually Ottomans were more advanced than Orthodox before the 16th century Arabization of Turkish state and institutions.

If Russia became what it became, that's by getting away from the Byzantine Orthodox culture they had.

You keep mentioning Arabization as if it was forced on you lol, none but your Turkish ancestors decided to "Arabify" your people. You can still fix it, you know with Erdogan being elected again :) :)

[Kamal900]

Kurds became a problem for us because they are Muslims and every time serious steps will be taken, a Muzzie religious leader comes and stops Turks.

That's because of religion if we succeeded in defeating non-Muslim Greek insurgencies but couldn't do same with Muslim Kurds' insurgencies. Religion is a negative aspect here.

What Arabian culture? There is no Arab culture. It was Berbers in the west, Persians in the east.

:picard2:

Pick a book or something. Jesus fucking Christ. Go to Palmyra and see the mixture between Arabic and Aramaic cultures.

[Kamal900]

You keep mentioning Arabization as if it was forced on you lol, none but your Turkish ancestors decided to "Arabify" your people. You can still fix it, you know with Erdogan being elected again :) :)

He'll be in power for 10 years, lol.

[Böri]

Yes, but the Safavids were a distraction and they never allowed the Ottomans to advance. Iraq became a battle ground for 150 years for example. Not to mention the carnage they created in Iran, thus their own people. Let alone what happened to Iraq from massacres, raped, looting, destruction of hospitals.

No. Ottomans defeated the Safavids because they firstly (before Arabization) had sophisticated, European style weaponry which Safavids lacked.
Safavids were decisively defeated and pushed to Iran.
Later, during the 16th century, when Arabian ulema was declared superior, those people left Ottomans backward.
They were even interfering with their fatwas in Ottomans' international relations with Habsburgs etc.

As Ottomans started to be alien and opposed to adaptation and progress with that desert spirit, they started to lose everywhere.
Caliphate and Arabian ideological influx are main responsible for Ottoman failure.

[StonyArabia]

Kurds became a problem for us because they are Muslims and every time serious steps will be taken, a Muzzie religious leader comes and stops Turks.

That's because of religion if we succeeded in defeating non-Muslim Greek insurgencies but couldn't do same with Muslim Kurds' insurgencies. Religion is a negative aspect here.

What Arabian culture? There is no Arab culture. It was Berbers in the west, Persians in the east.

No Moorish Spain was created by Ummyad Arabs , Levantines, some Arabians and the rest being Berbers. Persians had only strong role in giving culture to your ancestors and not ours. We adopted some elements from Persian culture, but we were never Persiantes, not even the Abbassids were.

Many Kurds are part Turk and many Turk are part Kurd, where do you even begin lol.

[Böri]

Islam is the reason why Kurdish insurgencies aren't defeated yet while Greek insurgencies could be defeated in the past. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
The religious similarity makes Turks weaker in taking radical steps against Kurds.
That is how it was in the past and how it is now.

It's well known that in Turkey, Kurdish PKK terrorists hire some bearded Muslim scholars looking people for their propaganda.
Through Islamic propaganda means, they try to weaken Turks psychologically to bring to their terms. You just don't know Turkey.

Just question: How Turks can rid of Greek terrorism back in time but can't do same with Kurdish terrorism?
The answer is religion.

[Marmara]

Islam is the reason why Kurdish insurgencies aren't defeated yet while Greek insurgencies could be defeated in the past. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
The religious similarity makes Turks weaker in taking radical steps against Kurds.
That is how it was in the past and how it is now.

It's well known that in Turkey, Kurdish PKK terrorists hire some bearded Muslim scholars looking people for their propaganda.
You just don't know Turkey.

Just question: How Turks can rid of Greek terrorism back in time but can't do same with Kurdish terrorism?
The answer is religion.

You aren't very smart yourself. You shouldn't bash Arabs.

[Aren]

The Persian influence in the early Caliphates is often understimated, but the more important factor were the Nestorian Christians/Church of the East followers, many ofc being Assyrians.

[StonyArabia]

Islam is the reason why Kurdish insurgencies aren't defeated yet while Greek insurgencies could be defeated. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
The religious similarity makes Turks weaker in taking radical steps against Kurds.
That is how it was in the past and how it is now.

That's true, and also it's why Turks and Kurds can intermarry with each other, which is not really uncommon unlike with the majority Greeks for example. Thus there is also some blood connection and some families are united in that regard.


It's well known that in Turkey, Kurdish PKK terrorists hire some bearded Muslim scholars looking people for their propaganda.
You just don't know Turkey.

The PKK are scum no doubt. I am not really fan of Kurdish ambitions in Northern Iraq or Syria either. As long they stay away from my land I have no issue with them.

[Böri]

You aren't very smart yourself. You shouldn't bash Arabs.

If you are so intelligent, you are welcome to explain the reason why Turks could free themselves from Orthodox Greeks and Apostolic Armenians in the past but couldn't do same with Muslim Kurds.
Religion stops and blocks. That puts limits. That's simply the fact.

[Aren]

Islam is the reason why Kurdish insurgencies aren't defeated yet while Greek insurgencies could be defeated in the past. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
The religious similarity makes Turks weaker in taking radical steps against Kurds.
That is how it was in the past and how it is now.

It's well known that in Turkey, Kurdish PKK terrorists hire some bearded Muslim scholars looking people for their propaganda.
Through Islamic propaganda means, they try to weaken Turks psychologically to bring to their terms. You just don't know Turkey.

Just question: How Turks can rid of Greek terrorism back in time but can't do same with Kurdish terrorism?
The answer is religion.

Yeah ofc, if you would've beaten the Kurds like you did with the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks then that would've maked you guys less MENA in mentality. Cause you know ethnic cleansing is definitely not an Arab specialty.

[Böri]

The Persian influence in the early Caliphates is often understimated, but the more important factor were the Nestorian Christians/Church of the East followers, many ofc being Assyrians.

The Umayyads like Muawiyyah built their state on examples of people like you actually.

[Mingle]

They're not really bad for their region. You have to look at how they fare in their region to assess how much influence religion has. Compare Bosnia/Albania with other Balkan countries, compare Somalia with other East African countries, compare Pakistan/Bangladesh with other South Asian countries, compare Indonesia/Malaysia/Brunei with other Southeast Asian countries, etc. Comparing places like Egypt to France makes no sense cause of their completely different historical circumstances. Once you compare these countries in the context of their region, then you'll see the world is not as black and white as you think.

Also, grouping all the other countries that fit your requirement as generic "non-Muslim" makes no sense. They are for the most part all exclusively Western countries. The exceptions are China/Russia (UN security council members), South Korea, and Japan. China and Russia have a very big population and large land mass, with the latter having a massive influence in European/American politics. So it makes sense that they are permanent UN security council members. Japan and South Korea were funded very handsomely by the West after WW2 to help them rebuild which is why they are so advanced today. Notice how the two main technological global leaders in Asia are Japan and South Korea rather than Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Armenia, etc.? Its more than simply a religious issue.

Now Islam does have some backwards views that stunt development. For example, the religious-inspired views in Islam regarding women keeps a lot of women out of the workforce who would have otherwise contributed to the development of the country. This happens because of Islam and negatively affects the development of the country. But my point is that although Islam may contribute to the backwardness of a country, it is definitely not the main factor, if even a factor at all.

[Marmara]

If you are so intelligent, you are welcome to explain the reason why Turks could free themselves from Orthodox Greeks and Apostolic Armenians in the past but couldn't do same with Muslim Kurds.
Religion stops and blocks. That puts limits. That's simply the fact.

What freeing? You have fallen into MENA trap as well.

I wonder why Brits didn't cry "Şehitler Ölmez Vatan Bölünmez" when this was happening:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence

[Böri]

They're not really bad for their region. You have to look at how they fare in their region to assess how much influence religion has. Compare Bosnia/Albania with other Balkan countries, compare Somalia with other East African countries, compare Pakistan/Bangladesh with other South Asian countries, compare Indonesia/Malaysia/Brunei with other Southeast Asian countries, etc. Comparing places like Egypt to France makes no sense cause of their completely different historical circumstances. Once you compare these countries in the context of their region, then you'll see the world is not as black and white as you think.

Also, grouping all the other countries that fit your requirement as generic "non-Muslim" makes no sense. They are for the most part all exclusively Western countries. The exceptions are China/Russia (UN security council members), South Korea, and Japan. China and Russia have a very big population and large land mass, with the latter having a massive influence in European/American politics. So it makes sense that they are permanent UN security council members. Japan and South Korea were funded very handsomely by the West after WW2 to help them rebuild which is why they are so advanced today. Notice how the two main technological global leaders in Asia are Japan and South Korea rather than Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Armenia, etc.? Its more than simply a religious issue.

Now Islam does have some backwards views that stunt development. For example, the religious-inspired views in Islam regarding women keeps a lot of women out of the workforce who would have otherwise contributed to the development of the country. This happens because of Islam and negatively affects the development of the country. But my point is that although Islam may contribute to the backwardness of a country, it is definitely not the main factor, if even a factor at all.

The non-Muslim countries in question aren't Congolese Christians of course. But northernly countries who ultimately completely defeated Muslim-majority nations in 20th century. Those people show ability to adapt and aren't ultra-conservative like Arabs are. That's reason for their development.

The case of Ottomans is a perfect example. When Ottomans faced the west before 16th century, they had good technology and could be in line with the most developed armies. Once it started to turn to ME during the 16th century by also occupying the Middle East and adopting her culture and institutions, it started to fail.

The reason why Muslim countries are backward that's the bigotry there is in the Middle East and the unability of those people to build stable state institutions.

[Mingle]

Islam is the reason why Kurdish insurgencies aren't defeated yet while Greek insurgencies could be defeated in the past. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
The religious similarity makes Turks weaker in taking radical steps against Kurds.
That is how it was in the past and how it is now.

It's well known that in Turkey, Kurdish PKK terrorists hire some bearded Muslim scholars looking people for their propaganda.
Through Islamic propaganda means, they try to weaken Turks psychologically to bring to their terms. You just don't know Turkey.

Just question: How Turks can rid of Greek terrorism back in time but can't do same with Kurdish terrorism?
The answer is religion.

Kurds were on your side before, so there was no reason to kill them. Kurdish Sunnis fought side by side with Turkish Sunnis everywhere. Kurds weren't as separatist or powerful as Greek ones in the past. Greeks and Armenians were wealthy with connections to European/Western Christian countries. Kurds were mostly rural villagers and not separatist. Kurdish separatism started rising with the advent of Kemalism which is when the Pan-Islamic Ottoman ideology was replaced with the more Turkocentric secular ethnonationalist ideology. You're acting like Kurds and Greeks are identical when you take away their religion.

If you're talking about Kurds in the 21st century, well its not easy to get away with or execute genocide in this day and age. If there were millions of Greeks living in Turkey in the 21st century, I doubt Turkey would have been able to get away with killing them either. Also, Kurdish separatist organizations in Turkey are leftist/socialist/communist mainly not Islamist. The Kurds that are devoutly Muslim are less likely to be separatist. Many Muslims oppose ethnic separatism because "it divides Muslims".

[Mingle]

The non-Muslim countries in question aren't Congolese Christians of course. But northernly countries who ultimately completely defeated Muslim-majority nations in 20th century. Those people show ability to adapt and aren't ultra-conservative like Arabs are. That's reason for their development.

The case of Ottomans is a perfect example. When Ottomans faced the west before 16th century, they had good technology and could be in line with the most developed armies. Once it started to turn to ME during the 16th century by also occupying the Middle East and adopting her culture and institutions, it started to fail.

The reason why Muslim countries are backward that's the bigotry there is in the Middle East and the unability of those people to build stable state institutions.

Yeah, so it was overall a Western vs. MENA thing rather than a Muslim vs. non-Muslim thing.

[Böri]

Kurds were on your side before, so there was no reason to kill them. Kurdish Sunnis fought side by side with Turkish Sunnis everywhere. Kurds weren't as separatist or powerful as Greek ones in the past. Greeks and Armenians were wealthy with connections to European/Western Christian countries. Kurds were mostly rural villagers and not separatist. Kurdish separatism started rising with the advent of Kemalism which is when the Pan-Islamic Ottoman ideology was replaced with the more Turkocentric secular ethnonationalist ideology. You're acting like Kurds and Greeks are identical when you take away their religion.

If you're talking about Kurds in the 21st century, well its not easy to get away with or execute genocide in this day and age. If there were millions of Greeks living in Turkey in the 21st century, I doubt Turkey would have been able to get away with killing them either. Also, Kurdish separatist organizations in Turkey are leftist/socialist/communist mainly not Islamist. The Kurds that are devoutly Muslim are less likely to be separatist. Many Muslims oppose ethnic separatism because "it divides Muslims".

We aren't talking about genocide.
We talk about dealing with terrorism.
Greeks had terrorist activities in Anatolia in the past and they were defeated.
They weren't genocided or deported. They continued to stay until population exchange.

Islam is a weakening element in Turks's struggle against PKK terrorism.
That's the reason why the success against Greeks couldn't be obtained against the PKK which even employs 'imam-spies'.

Again it is fact not opinion.

[Aren]

Oh cry me a river.... kmeee.


Why haven't you destroyed crusaders and invaded back?

Because you love doing nothing and swiming in oil.

Typical Arab Cuck.

Why even bother responding to Stonyarabia(brainwashed as fuck), his post was just trash on a pile of shit. Nothing to do with the extreme decadence of the Mideast today.

[Böri]

Yeah, so it was overall a Western vs. MENA thing rather than a Muslim vs. non-Muslim thing.

When you say West, that's not Muslim Bosnia. Just as facing Middle East doesn't mean facing the few Christian villages across Syria. Middle East is the Arab culture. That's it.

[Marmara]

We aren't talking about genocide.
We talk about dealing with terrorism.
Greeks had terrorist activities in Anatolia in the past and they were defeated.
They weren't genocided or deported. They continued to stay until population exchange.

Islam is a weakening element in Turks's struggle against Kurds.
That's the reason why the success against Greeks couldn't be obtained against Kurds.

Again it is fact not opinion.

The best way of dealing with Kurds would be letting them free in the first place. But the retarded ego of Turks and the politicians who are dependent on votes of those retards never took the "necessary steps"

If I was Ataturk I would have given up from Eastern Turkey gladly. A region that is a black hole of taxes from west, a source of unwanted culturally alien immigrants. Region with polygamy, child brides, honor killings.

Keep it, even stuck it in your ass, that's what our ego wishes.

[Böri]

The best way of dealing with Kurds would be letting them free in the first place. But the retarded ego of Turks and the politicians who are dependent on votes of those retards never took the "necessary steps"

If I was Ataturk I would have given up from Eastern Turkey gladly. A region that is a black hole of taxes from west, a source of unwanted culturally alien immigrants. Region with polygamy, child brides, honor killings.

Keep it, even stuck it in your ass, that's what our ego wishes.


PKK spread using the Islamist rethoric and the Arab culture very well.
The Kurdish traditional culture is an Arabized culture which is strongly feodalist. Nothing like the culture of Turks.
Kurdish women, as you know, in the traditional Kurdish culture they are locked at home and treated as second class.

PKK which had a socialist and more gender equalitarian rethoric attacked that Kurdish feodal culture, promising freedom to Kurdish villagers from their landlords treating them as slaves and promising more rights to Kurdish women.
PKK succeeded with Kurds.

Now, PKK used counter-method with Turks.
They sent their imam-spies to western Turkey blaming everything on Atatürk. They told that if Atatürk never existed, the tradional feodal culture of Kurds would continue, they blamed Atatürk's modernization. Many ignorant conservative Turks fell in the trap by blaming Atatürk and sticking to Arabist MENA culture.
PKK succeeded with Turks too.

That is what happened and how PKK grew. If Kurds didn't have that much Arabian style feodalism and ultraconservatism in their culture, the PKK would never find that much ground.

[Marmara]

PKK spread using the Islamist rethoric and the Arab culture very well.
The Kurdish traditional culture is an Arabized culture which is strongly feodalist. Nothing like the culture of Turks.
Kurdish women, as you know, in the traditional Kurdish culture they are locked at home and treated as second class.

PKK which had a socialist and more gender equalitarian rethoric attacked that Kurdish feodal culture, promising freedom to Kurdish villagers from their landlords treating them as slaves and promising more rights to Kurdish women.
PKK succeeded with Kurds.

Now, PKK used counter-method with Turks.
They sent their imam-spies to western Turkey blaming everything on Atatürk. They told that if Atatürk never existed, the tradional feodal culture of Kurds would continue, they blamed Atatürk's modernization. Many ignorant conservative Turks fell in the trap by blaming Atatürk and sticking to Arabist MENA culture.
PKK succeeded with Turks too.

That is what happened and how PKK grew. If Kurds didn't have that much Arabian style feodalism and ultraconservatism in their culture, the PKK would never find that much ground.

Anyway, the way we have dealed with Kurds bring out Turks' own MENA aspect (Emotional, Irrational)

[Böri]

Anyway, the way we have dealed with Kurds bring out Turks' own MENA aspect (Emotional, Irrational)

It was dealt with a Muslim brotherhood viewpoint, especially during the opening years by AKP some years ago. That's why PKK spread inside Turkey for exaple. They quickly understood, after elections ,that Muslim brotherhood doesn't solve such issues.

[Pahli]

The best way of dealing with Kurds would be letting them free in the first place. But the retarded ego of Turks and the politicians who are dependent on votes of those retards never took the "necessary steps"

If I was Ataturk I would have given up from Eastern Turkey gladly. A region that is a black hole of taxes from west, a source of unwanted culturally alien immigrants. Region with polygamy, child brides, honor killings.

Keep it, even stuck it in your ass, that's what our ego wishes.

Its failed minority policies basically, Mingle described it well, the policy of the post-Ottoman governments were to attempt assimilation of all non-ethnic Turks, as an example, Kurds were "Mountain Turks", albeit a completely different people in terms of language and some minor differences in culture and even physically too.

[Aren]

Its failed minority policies basically, Mingle described it well, the policy of the post-Ottoman governments were to attempt assimilation of all non-ethnic Turks, as an example, Kurds were "Mountain Turks", albeit a completely different people in terms of language and some minor differences in culture and even physically too.

I was just called "mountain christian" by a Turk on another forum the other day. It's very much alive yet today.

[renaissance12]

Is this a joke?
No it is no a joke.. and it is no a joke the fact that islam is the main religion in Turkey...How many milions Christian were killed and forced to deny their religion by primitive arabic barbarians ( from Arabia )

[Numidia]

It's because of backward extremists they claim only life after death matter so people don't even care of developping their countries and the population is still growing if they don't work and have too much kids after that this kids will have no future they will say "it's god will" not their responsibility
They distort Islam missive concerning progress and they should push women to work study to be more involved in society and children education
The prophet sws wife khadija was a wealthy tradeswomen much more older now we are far away to see a women president in Muslims country

[Dandelion]

Soon they'll have more nuclear power and then I give mankind 20 years tops. ;) The US will even help Saudi Arabia with their nukes. Scary foresight.

[El_Abominacion]

Why? Islam

[tipirneni]

Nations with really intellectual people & groups have outgrown the religion thing. It has been the other way around until the people move beyond a critical point of development. Islam had also share of intelligent people in the past that were able to stand side by side to the Christian Europe. It is probably more than just the religion that is making people backward.

[Dandelion]

Given the hedonistic lifestyle of many a muslim, I'm not too worried about the future. I am worried about more countries getting nuclear warheads, and that's a legit worry of course. Especially now both Russia and the US have abandoned the disarmament accords of the '80s.

[Borealis]

Inbreeding and religion

[rajputprincess]

Because they don't want to change and modernize and their backward culture and sexism.

Sent from my ZUK Z2132 using Tapatalk

[ioan assen]

The biggest mistake of the Turks?
In 1460 the pope proposed Mehmed the Conquerer to convert to catholicism:
"Soon after the terrible news from the Levant, Pope Pius II conceived the strange idea of trying to convert the sultan. How this notion matured in his brain we can only guess...

In this letter Pius II assured the sultan that he did not hate him, since his Lord bade him love his enemies and pray for his persecutors. He went on to point out that it was a delusion to suppose that the sword of Islam could conquer the Latin world as easily as it had the Asiatics, Greeks, Serbs, and Wallachians - all infidels and heretics. But if Mehmed did wish to extend his rule among Christians and cover his name with glory, he needed no money, no weapons, no armies, no navies.


An insignificant trifle can make you the greatest, the most powerful, the most famous of living mortals. You ask what it is? It is not hard to find; there is no need to go far in search of it. It can be found everywhere: a little water with which to be baptized, to be converted to Christianity, and to accept the faith of the Gospel.

Once you have done this there will be no prince on the whole earth to outdo you in fame or equal you in power. We shall appoint you the emperor of the Greeks and the Orient... All Christians will honor you and make you the arbiter of their quarrels... Many will submit to you voluntarily, appear before your judgement seat, and pay taxes to you. It will be given to you to quell tyrants, to support the good and combat the wicked. And the Roman Church will not oppose you... The first spiritual chair [the Pope] will embrace you in the same love as other kings, and all the more so accordingly as your position is higher. Under these conditions you can easily, without war or bloodshed, acquire many kingdoms...

We [the Papacy] shall never lend aid to your enemies, but on the contrary call on your arm against those who sometimes usurp the rights of the Roman Church and raise their horns against their own mother.

Had they accepted the offer, today Turkey would have been as better off as Spain at least.

[Bosniensis]

Ottoman Empire was the world greatest cultural, military superpower from 15-18th century nobody could come even close.

[Marmara]

The biggest mistake of the Turks?
In 1460 the pope proposed Mehmed the Conquerer to convert to catholicism:
"Soon after the terrible news from the Levant, Pope Pius II conceived the strange idea of trying to convert the sultan. How this notion matured in his brain we can only guess...

In this letter Pius II assured the sultan that he did not hate him, since his Lord bade him love his enemies and pray for his persecutors. He went on to point out that it was a delusion to suppose that the sword of Islam could conquer the Latin world as easily as it had the Asiatics, Greeks, Serbs, and Wallachians - all infidels and heretics. But if Mehmed did wish to extend his rule among Christians and cover his name with glory, he needed no money, no weapons, no armies, no navies.


An insignificant trifle can make you the greatest, the most powerful, the most famous of living mortals. You ask what it is? It is not hard to find; there is no need to go far in search of it. It can be found everywhere: a little water with which to be baptized, to be converted to Christianity, and to accept the faith of the Gospel.

Once you have done this there will be no prince on the whole earth to outdo you in fame or equal you in power. We shall appoint you the emperor of the Greeks and the Orient... All Christians will honor you and make you the arbiter of their quarrels... Many will submit to you voluntarily, appear before your judgement seat, and pay taxes to you. It will be given to you to quell tyrants, to support the good and combat the wicked. And the Roman Church will not oppose you... The first spiritual chair [the Pope] will embrace you in the same love as other kings, and all the more so accordingly as your position is higher. Under these conditions you can easily, without war or bloodshed, acquire many kingdoms...

We [the Papacy] shall never lend aid to your enemies, but on the contrary call on your arm against those who sometimes usurp the rights of the Roman Church and raise their horns against their own mother.

Had they accepted the offer, today Turkey would have been as better off as Spain at least.

But you are an Orthodox, it would not matter for your ancestors. A Catholic Turkey would even attempt to abolish Orthodoxy and forcefully convert Orthodoxes to Catholicism.

[Marmara]

The biggest mistake of the Turks?
In 1460 the pope proposed Mehmed the Conquerer to convert to catholicism:
"Soon after the terrible news from the Levant, Pope Pius II conceived the strange idea of trying to convert the sultan. How this notion matured in his brain we can only guess...

In this letter Pius II assured the sultan that he did not hate him, since his Lord bade him love his enemies and pray for his persecutors. He went on to point out that it was a delusion to suppose that the sword of Islam could conquer the Latin world as easily as it had the Asiatics, Greeks, Serbs, and Wallachians - all infidels and heretics. But if Mehmed did wish to extend his rule among Christians and cover his name with glory, he needed no money, no weapons, no armies, no navies.


An insignificant trifle can make you the greatest, the most powerful, the most famous of living mortals. You ask what it is? It is not hard to find; there is no need to go far in search of it. It can be found everywhere: a little water with which to be baptized, to be converted to Christianity, and to accept the faith of the Gospel.

Once you have done this there will be no prince on the whole earth to outdo you in fame or equal you in power. We shall appoint you the emperor of the Greeks and the Orient... All Christians will honor you and make you the arbiter of their quarrels... Many will submit to you voluntarily, appear before your judgement seat, and pay taxes to you. It will be given to you to quell tyrants, to support the good and combat the wicked. And the Roman Church will not oppose you... The first spiritual chair [the Pope] will embrace you in the same love as other kings, and all the more so accordingly as your position is higher. Under these conditions you can easily, without war or bloodshed, acquire many kingdoms...

We [the Papacy] shall never lend aid to your enemies, but on the contrary call on your arm against those who sometimes usurp the rights of the Roman Church and raise their horns against their own mother.

Had they accepted the offer, today Turkey would have been as better off as Spain at least.

But you are an Orthodox, it would not matter for your ancestors. A Catholic Turkey would even attempt to abolish Orthodoxy and forcefully convert Orthodoxes to Catholicism.

[Deneb]

All religions are a scourge. Generalizing, the more religious a country is, the more backward it is.

[Numidia]

All religions are a scourge. Generalizing, the more religious a country is, the more backward it is.

it's the lack of secularism that brings troubles
religion can't be mixed with policy it's even mentionned in koran

[Pandit]

Iran has so much success, that it's time for them to fail.

Whole world is Shit in comparison with Iran history.

And by the way, IRAN is their Ancient name not "Persia" as many imagine.

Iran is Iranshahr the state who had more Emperors than Roman Empire and any other Empire.

Who had more gold and power than any other nation in the world

Who had more technology than any other nation in the world.

You name it... IRAN invented it and had it.

Even today they are building nuclear reactors and what not.

Iran had more gold than any other nation ?

Ever heard of India and China ?

[Pandit]

I think converting to Islam was a reasonable thing to do.

There were 2 major civilizations bordering Turks, Muslim and Chinese, so converting to İslam or Buddhism to have access to these civilizations was a smart idea.

Real problem is what we're facing now.

What if Turks chose Buddhism over Islam during those times ?

[Roy]

Their religion does not favour any progress beyond their medieval achievement.
Many ethnic Muslims are heavily inbred too which aggravates the problem.

[Mikael19]

Because they don't want to change and modernize and their backward culture and sexism.

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Very rich coming from South Asian whose culture and religion discriminates based on skin color and caste, not to mention the oppression of women by burning them alive with their dead husbands. Yes I'm sure Islam is backwards. Lol.

[Mikael19]

All religions are a scourge. Generalizing, the more religious a country is, the more backward it is.

You need to travel to more countries my friend.

[ioan assen]

But you are an Orthodox, it would not matter for your ancestors. A Catholic Turkey would even attempt to abolish Orthodoxy and forcefully convert Orthodoxes to Catholicism.
There is no big difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy at present and at those times: there were even LESS differences. So yes, we might have been converted, even by force to catholicism, but I dont see it as anything negative at all. At the very least the Italian renessaince would have influenced the Balkans and maybe today we would have had gorgeous Reneissance, Baroque, Neoclassical buildings (smth like Croatia for example). I suspect the Ottomans would have been much more open to the West from the very beginning and there would have been cultural, ideological transfer (mainly TO the Balkans, because we were vastly underdeveloped, especially in Ottoman times). At the very least today Turkey would have been at least as developed as Spain or Italy and it would have been in the EU since the 50ties.

[WinterCrusader]

Because they are inbred due to marrying thir own cousins for over 1500 years as Robinson said.

Also, they are non white.

[TheOldNorth]

2nd word of the question

[Moje ime]

Because they don't have "degenerate" things like human rights like rich non Muslim countries. :rolleyes:

[ShenGjergj]

Iran weak? Hmmm.

[Alexander56]

Muslims didn't ever felt like a one people tbh
the real-life doesn't sound like their ideology