Did Mongol invasion changed the genetic structure of Central Asia?

[LoLeL]

It is impossible to find a perfect modern proxy for the Oghuz incomers, the demographic transition following the Mongol invasion has reshaped the genetic structure of Central Asia. The region between the Caspian and Aral Seas, which was once home to Oghuz people, is currently inhabited by Kazakhs and Mongol tribes (Dughlat, Jalair, Onggirat etc.) played a significant role in the formation of Kazakhs.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14021-Eurasian-Steppe-Population-Genetics&p=386030&viewfull=1#post386030

So Central Asians were less Mongoloid and more West Eurasian before Mongol Empire? :scratch:

[Pahli]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14021-Eurasian-Steppe-Population-Genetics&p=386030&viewfull=1#post386030

So Central Asians were less Mongoloid and more West Eurasian before Mongol Empire? :scratch:

Yes, and there was millions of Persian speaking people back then but they were all massacred by the Mongols, so the region today is dominantly Turkic speaking with an exception to Bukhara and Samarkand which still hold a Tajik majority.

[Marmara]

Yes, many Iranics were living in Central Asia. Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan were Iranic afaik before Mongols, also in Kazakhstan Turkics were more western shifted than modern Kazakhs which is I believe half Mongolian.

[cyberlorian]

Yes, many Iranics were living in Central Asia. Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan were Iranic afaik before Mongols, also in Kazakhstan Turkics were more western shifted than modern Kazakhs which is I believe half Mongolian.

Were Kazakhs also Iranic?

[Marmara]

Were Kazakhs also Iranic?

No, maybe some southern parts, rest were Turkic.

[Pahli]

Khwarezm was Iranic, situated in Northern Uzbekistan / Southern Kazakhstan, most of upper Kazakhstan was inhabited by nomadic Turkic tribes

[Egyptian]

Rofl their influence reached even to Egypt, many Egyptians today of mongol origin

[LoLeL]

Rofl their influence reached even to Egypt, many Egyptians today of mongol origin

Evidence?

[blogen]

Yes, brutally. Central Asia was Iranian speaker with a significant Turkic minority before the Mongols.

[StonyArabia]

They originally were more like Iranians. However a lot of Iranians were Turkized for whatever reason. For example the Khwarezmians were Turko-Persians, but they did not look Mongoloid. It seemed that the Turkic influence especially speech was seeping into Iranian lands. For example Azeris are no that Turkic at all, and are identical to Kurds genetically. However the Mongoloid invasion altered Central Asia

[LoLeL]

Khwarezm was Iranic, situated in Northern Uzbekistan / Southern Kazakhstan, most of upper Kazakhstan was inhabited by nomadic Turkic tribes

Then how Tajikistan survived?

[Pahli]

Then how Tajikistan survived?

Mountains saved them, especially Pamiri Tajiks that still have like 50 - 60% Steppe barely mixed with Turkic tribes compared to Tajiks that have some Turkic admixture, which explains why they have ~10% Mong.

[LoLeL]

Mountains saved them, especially Pamiri Tajiks that still have like 50 - 60% Steppe barely mixed with Turkic tribes compared to Tajiks that have some Turkic admixture, which explains why they have ~10% Mong.

Mountains may saved the villagers but not all people. The existence of those Mongoloid-looking Tajiks and interethnic mixing confirm that Tajiks and Mongols were good friends.

[Pahli]

Mountains may saved the villagers but not all people. The existence of those Mongoloid-looking Tajiks and interethnic mixing confirm that Tajiks and Mongols were good friends.

The Mongols didn't care, they razed the major Persian speaking cities of Central Asia and pushed Iranian people into the East and South, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, however Sarmarkand and Bukhara still retains an Iranian majority, however its denied by the Uzbek government in order to assimilate the population.

[LoLeL]

The Mongols didn't care, they razed the major Persian speaking cities of Central Asia and pushed Iranian people into the East and South, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, however Sarmarkand and Bukhara still retains an Iranian majority, however its denied by the Uzbek government in order to assimilate the population.

Not really. Mongols only slaughtered and destroyed people and cities who resisted against them. They didn't harm the rest.

[Pahli]

Not really. Mongols only slaughtered and destroyed people and cities who resisted against them. They didn't harm the rest.

And those cities accounted for the majority of the Iranian population in Central Asia, they were heavily urbanized in those days, so you can put 2 and 2 together.

[LoLeL]

And those cities accounted for the majority of the Iranian population in Central Asia, they were heavily urbanized in those days, so you can put 2 and 2 together.

I think their biggest impact was in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan.

[Pahli]

I think their biggest impact was in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan.

There's mongol admixture among Kyrgyz and Kazakhs, but the Mongol impact on Central Asia was huge, as it shifted from Iranic to Turkic, most of Kyrgyzistan and Kazakhstan remained Turkic after the Mongols.

[Kamal900]

There's mongol admixture among Kyrgyz and Kazakhs, but the Mongol impact on Central Asia was huge, as it shifted from Iranic to Turkic, most of Kyrgyzistan and Kazakhstan remained Turkic after the Mongols.

Which is sad really. I would really have wanted to listen on how Khawarazmian sounded like.

[Pahli]

Which is sad really. I would really have wanted to listen on how Khawarazmian sounded like.

Its most likely a more archaic version of current Eastern Iranian languages in Tajikistan and Afghanistan, something between Avestan and modern Pashto / Pamiri perhaps

[Yaglakar]

Mongol tribal denominations is a weak argument. In the old days, tribal belonging was not set in stone, especially on the Eurasian steppes. Weaker tribes often adopted the names of stronger ones. Forefathers of Genghis Khan who came from Amur region to Mongolia intermixed with Turkics on the way. Naimans, Kereits, Tatars (sekiz Tatar/Toquz Tatar/Otuz Tatar) most likely spoke a Turco-Mongol creole, and we know that Naimans in fact outnumbered Mongols in late 13th century. Plus most Mongols (that is Ghengis Khan's warriors) perished in large numbers during various campaigns, replaced by largely Turkic local nomads. Genetic impact of Mongols is likely very low, but Mongols obviously changed the demographic balance in Central Asia. Ghengis Khan's invasion of Khwarezm and annihilation of Kipchaks was a matter of honor. Agreement was sealed between Khwarezm Shah and Genghis Khan, that the shah retains the west and the khan keeps the east. However Kipchaks, who were mercenaries of Khwarezm seized and plundered Khan's caravan heading for Otrar which led to casus belli and the commencement of western campaigns culminating in the slaughter of large number of Persian speaking citizens of Sogdiana.

[Odin]

Maybe.

https://i.imgur.com/bdqGR5e.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Which is sad really. I would really have wanted to listen on how Khawarazmian sounded like.

They already shifted to Turkic before the Mongol invasion. The Khawarzmians were a Turko-Persian people, originally Iranic but began to adopted Turkic language for whatever reason. They also looked like Iranians not that different. Qutuz was from them, he was the only Mamluk to have had his origins in Persia, most Mamlukes came from the Pontic steppe and the Caucasus. Many of them were enslaved by the Mongols. Interesting aspect that the Mamluks often wore earrings to make them distinct from other groups. This where the idea that Middle Eastern men wore earring, and also this why the Ottoman emperor Sliem began to wear one as well.

Originally it would probably have been very close to Pashto or Pamiri, however standard Persian was used, and most adopted Turkic.

[Odin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqArelIAeUA

[Papastratosels26]

I think so.

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[tipirneni]

In 1218 the governor of an eastern province of Khwarizm mistreated several Mongol emissaries. Genghis retaliated with a force of more than 200,000 troops, and Khwarizm was eradicated by 1220. A detachment of about 25,000 Mongol cavalry, as part of the Khwarizmian campaign, had crossed the Caucasus Mountains, had skirted the Caspian Sea, and had briefly invaded Europe. [Source: Library of Congress, June 1989 *]

In 1218, a caravan of Mongol merchants was sent by Genghis Khan to Khwarizm, a Muslim empire that stretched to the Caspian Sea and included parts of present-day Afghanistan and Iran. The merchants were sent to give the shah of Khwarizm gifts of jade, ivory, gold and cloaks of valuable white camel hair.

Suspecting that were spies, a Khwarizm governor ordered the merchants killed. An ambassador sent by Genghis Khan to the Khwarizm shah was also killed. The great khan was pissed, and he vented his fury with a string of massacres against Muslim kingdoms beginning with Utrar and Bukhara in 1219.

Before the murder of the merchants, Genghis Khan had been fairly calculating in his conquests. The killings turned him into a kind psychopath bent on revenge. The killing of the ambassador was a particular heinous crime one historian said because the "Mongols believed in the absolute inviolability of ambassadors."

By the time the Mongols were through in Central Asia maybe 30 percent of the population there was massacred. To this day the agriculture and irrigation systems have not been repaired in some devastated areas.
http://factsanddetails.com/archives/002/201405/5386943f0db13.jpg
In 1219, a Mongol force of 110,000 was divided into columns for an assault on the cities of Bukhara and Utrar, where the Khwarizm shah's army of 400,000 men where holed up. Although probably outnumbered, the Mongols captured the cities after a month-long siege. One witness who escaped wrote, "They came, they raped, they burnt, they slew, they plundered and they departed."
in Samrkand, By the time the Mongols were finished, Samarkand's wall had been torn down, the aqueduct was in ruins, and an estimated 100,000 people were killed. Around 30,000 skilled men including smiths, weavers, artisans, falconers, scribes and physicians were taken back to Mongolia.

Genghis Khan's armies then destroyed other great Silk Road trading centers such as Urgench (Uzbekistan), Merv (Turkmenistan), Balkh (Afghanistan), Nishapur (Iran), Ghazni (Afghanistan), and Herat (Afghanistan).

Kingdoms that resisted risked having their entire populations massacred. According to Muslim chroniclers, 100,000 defenders were killed and a river was diverted to flood the city of Urgench near the Aral Sea.

In Merv in present-day Turkmenistan, a Muslim holy men and his helpers spent 13 days counting 1.3 million victims "taking into account only those that were explain to see. Under the Seljuk Turks, Merv had become a city full of palaces, libraries, observatories, and canals that nourished parks and lush gardens. All this came to an end when messengers of Genghis Khan in 1218 appeared, demanding tribute and the pick of the city's most beautiful women. The Seljuks refused and killed the messengers. The Mongol arrived three years later and demanded that city surrender. The Seljuks complied and the Mongols responded by massacring all the city's inhabitants. According to some accounts each Mongol soldiers was ordered to decapitate 300 to 400 civilians and set the city aflame. After the Mongols left, Merv remained uninhabited for more than a century.

[Mingle]

Khwarezm was Iranic, situated in Northern Uzbekistan / Southern Kazakhstan, most of upper Kazakhstan was inhabited by nomadic Turkic tribes

Northern Kazakhstan and even western Mongolia were Iranic in the past. But they became Turk and Mongol prior to the expansion of the Mongol Empire.

[tipirneni]

Northern Kazakhstan and even western Mongolia were Iranic in the past. But they became Turk and Mongol prior to the expansion of the Mongol Empire.

Greaco-Bactrian, Indo-Greek & Gandhara civilizations were completly wiped out and replaced with Central Asian people. Huge Khwarzm empire was wiped out completly. Anything civilized & old got completly wiped out.

Only the early Turkic tribes who moved into Indian subcontinent survived. Later Mongol descendant Uzbeks conquered these Turkic & Afghan army to form huge Mughal empire.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization-v-customisation/images/0/0c/Tcm_map_bactria.png/revision/latest?cb=20150806235836

[Iloko]

Wasn't it mostly Mongol men interbreeding with Caucasian women?

[tipirneni]

Wasn't it mostly Mongol men interbreeding with Caucasian women?

Iranian NW closer to Caucasian shores

[Thambi]

Wasn't it mostly Mongol men interbreeding with Caucasian women?

apparently not actually. This is a map showing mtdna origins of central asia. Half to more than half on average is from east asia.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201160
https://media.springernature.com/full/nature-static/assets/v1/image-assets/5201160f1.jpg

[tipirneni]

apparently not actually. This is a map showing mtdna origins of central asia. Half to more than half on average is from east asia.

https://media.springernature.com/full/nature-static/assets/v1/image-assets/5201160f1.jpg

That East Asia is recent. Most Mongol time capture & women from Iranic tribes

[gıulıoımpa]

Yes it was much more Iranic before and indo aryan before

[Hashoeva]

Mountains saved them, especially Pamiri Tajiks that still have like 50 - 60% Steppe barely mixed with Turkic tribes compared to Tajiks that have some Turkic admixture, which explains why they have ~10% Mong.

Mountains wouldnt had stopped the mongols-turkics. there are enough ways to enter tajikistan or go to the mountains. I dont see how mountains would save them. Also pamiri tajiks carry some amount of mongol admixture which is like 10% or more in other calculators.

dna results of pamiri-tajiki:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Pamiri_575.png


This reference population is based on samples collected from people native to the Pamir Mountains of Tajikistan in southern Central Asia.



The 10% Northeast Asian component was likely brought by the Turkic and Mongolian-speaking nomads from northeastern Asia who conquered this region in the past 2,000 years.


source (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations/?cjevent=3f9673cadd3f11e880a0001b0a180513)

[mutabor]

They already shifted to Turkic before the Mongol invasion. The Khawarzmians were a Turko-Persian people, originally Iranic but began to adopted Turkic language for whatever reason.

After Mongol invasion Turkic language became only stronger in Central Asia overpowering Persian language. This doesn't sound like defeat of Turkic populations from mighty Mongols.

So called Mongols of Genghis Khan were not exclusively Mongols but 1) Turko-Mongols. 2) Original Turks ( Huns) who migrated from Mongolia and Eastern Khalka Mongols share similar DNA.

[Hashoeva]

central-asians had already mongol-turkic DNA before the mongol invasion... they tested the DNA of some ancient burials in central-asia which showed that ethnic groups in central-asian during ancient times already were mixing with each other.

look at this mitochondrial dna haplogroup distibutions among ethnic populations of central-asia. you see that tajiks and uzbeks are very similar in the amount of carrying female eastern-eurasian haplogroups. while tajiks speak an iranian language and uzbeks a turkic language:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S4q025yRjEI/AAAAAAAACTw/clKTJWROClE/s1600/uzbekistan.png

[mutabor]

Genghis Khan basically reconquered lands which were already conquered by Turks before him.

[Anglojew]

Yes. Central Asia was white during the Bronze Age & has been getting progressively Mongoloid since esp. from the Mongol invasion

[RenaRyuguu]

Mongols are just alien friends like Agumon MON mine identity MON

Here's a picture of Agumon:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/237/a/0/Agumon_by_mancy157.jpg

I do wish he was real I want a pet Velociraptor in a cage

http://images.dinosaurpictures.org/velociraptor_12_c4fd.jpg

Awwww Chris Pratt says they are friendly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh9twGJ1v5Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnRxQ3dcaQk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3znhTOUqi8

They are only friendly towards nice people.

[sean]

Mongols are just alien friends like Agumon MON mine identity MON. They are only friendly towards nice people.

What the fuck are you smoking?

If you want to actually trip and see weird shit from behind your eyeballs drop some good quality acid. If you want to talk to real aliens drink some ayahuasca.

[RenaRyuguu]

What the fuck are you smoking?

If you want to actually trip and see weird shit from behind your eyeballs drop some good quality acid. If you want to talk to real aliens drink some ayahuasca.

Moshi moshi

[PaleoEuropean]

Central Asia has been Aryan/Turkic/Mongloid since the beginning of time

[jingorex]

the HU intensifies!!!!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8dCGIm6yc

[Annihilus]

Central Asia has been Aryan/Turkic/Mongloid since the beginning of time

That's a bit of a stretch, Mongoloid is only 7000 years old.

[PaleoEuropean]

That's a bit of a stretch, Mongoloid is only 7000 years old.

They share common ancestors

[sean]

Moshi moshi

I'll bet your pronouns are konichiwa and shinkansen.

[Crimson Winds]

Yes. Before the invasion politics, demography and social structure in Central Asia was based on co-existence between Turks and Iranics(Sogdians mainly). Iranics were living in the big cities playing major role in bureaucracy and trade while Turks were at the steppes forming the military and elites. However, Mongols razed almost every major city at Central Asia/Turkestan and most Iranic population faded while most of the Oghuz Turks left Turkestan for Anatolia. What was to come was a shift from Turco-Iranic to the Turko-Mongol tradition.

[Tellmewhy]

Yes, they were more West Eurasian by DNA before Mongol invasions.