Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says

[Loki]

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197)

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51778000/jpg/_51778296_51778294.jpg

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

Nonlinear dynamics is invoked to explain a wide range of physical phenomena in which a number of factors play a part.

One of the team, Daniel Abrams of Northwestern University, put forth a similar model in 2003 to put a numerical basis behind the decline of lesser-spoken world languages.

At its heart is the competition between speakers of different languages, and the "utility" of speaking one instead of another.

"The idea is pretty simple," said Richard Wiener of the Research Corporation for Science Advancement, and the University of Arizona.

"It posits that social groups that have more members are going to be more attractive to join, and it posits that social groups have a social status or utility.

"For example in languages, there can be greater utility or status in speaking Spanish instead of [the dying language] Quechuan in Peru, and similarly there's some kind of status or utility in being a member of a religion or not."

Dr Wiener continued: "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%."

The team then applied their nonlinear dynamics model, adjusting parameters for the relative social and utilitarian merits of membership of the "non-religious" category.

They found, in a study published online (http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.1375), that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them.

And in all the countries, the indications were that religion was headed toward extinction.

However, Dr Wiener told the conference that the team was working to update the model with a "network structure" more representative of the one at work in the world.

"Obviously we don't really believe this is the network structure of a modern society, where each person is influenced equally by all the other people in society," he said.

However, he told BBC News that he thought it was "a suggestive result".

"It's interesting that a fairly simple model captures the data, and if those simple ideas are correct, it suggests where this might be going.

"Obviously much more complicated things are going on with any one individual, but maybe a lot of that averages out."

[Joe McCarthy]

Ireland I find hard to believe, if I'm reading this correctly.

[Wyn]

Ireland I find hard to believe, if I'm reading this correctly.

Yes, I was going to say this.

[The Ripper]

Yes, I was going to say this.

Same goes for Finland and Switzerland, imo. We have, still, a fairly large and active pietist movement, Laestadians, not to mention a growing Muslim minority. :coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Even in the Netherlands. A relatively large amount of people (including young people) still adhere to a religion like one of the Christian religions but are not a member of a religious institution and a lot of people that are not Christian may hold some religious believes of some other sort.

According to a quick check of wiki: 43.4% of the Dutch population is affiliated with a Christian church.

So this study is non-sense.

[Debaser11]

Interesting article. I don't think it's humanly possible though. Every culture has a religion whether or not it is actually recognized as one by name.

[The Lawspeaker]

And I am not done yet: A quick look on the wikipedia page (Religion in Switzerland) confirms what I already thought would be the case (Swiss are a relatively conservative people). Completely and utterly refuted:

Christianity is the predominant religion of Switzerland (82% of total resident population).

So unless the 82 percent of the resident population is going to die out very, very soon: religion in Switzerland will not disappear.

And in both cases I haven't counted Islam: 6 percent in the Netherlands and 10 in Switzerland.

[anonymaus]

Ireland I find hard to believe, if I'm reading this correctly.

I agree, and it's unlikely anywhere for the foreseeable future of humanity; sadly, Ireland has the most to gain from the eradication of tribalizing forces.

[Grumpy Cat]

Most Canadians under 35 are non-religious, so this doesn't surprise me.

Lots of boarded up abandoned churches where I am from.

[Joe McCarthy]

Boarded up, abandoned churches.

Sounds like the Soviet Union under Stalin.

[Loki]

Young people just don't go to church anymore in England - only weird ones. Churchgoers all seem 70+. I can see how it can die out, and probably will in future as knowledge increases even further.

Islam would probably be the last to die out, since it is such a strong social force in Islamic countries. But, the recent upheavals in North Africa / Middle East show that even that can crumble. It almost looks like that region is now having people-based revolutions that Europe had centuries ago (French Revolution). For them, it's progress towards democracy and a more humane system of government. The next casualty will be religion.

[Grumpy Cat]

Boarded up, abandoned churches.

Sounds like the Soviet Union under Stalin.

loool. Bad comparison. Canadians are leaving by choice.

I know you Americans think Canada is a communist country, and are obsessed with trying to prove it, but we're not. If anything, we have a more free market than the US (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking).

[The Lawspeaker]

Religion or let's call "believe in a spiritual force" will probably become more fragmented and personal. A bit like the way in which people shop: not specifically at brands but more at what they represent or say to represent. In essence it will be the democratisation of religion from a trans-national institution or state church to where it belongs: personal spirituality. But the transfer will be a gradual one I guess.

[The Lawspeaker]

Boarded up, abandoned churches.

Sounds like the Soviet Union under Stalin.
What a piss poor comparison given that people leave by choice then and churches can be used for something else: as a community centre, a library, a place for silent contemplation, museum, a hotel (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289934&postcount=5), apartments (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289829&postcount=4), a shop (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289940&postcount=6) or market hall etc.

Hell.. in some cases maybe even a spa ;)

[Grumpy Cat]

What a piss poor comparison given that people leave by choice then and churches can be used for something else: as a community centre, a library, a place for silent contemplation, apartments etc.


Canada is communist because we have free health care and we don't treat our poor like animals (which, I thought helping the poor was a Christian value, and Americans claim to be so Christian). :coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Then I am a proud commie too. As we Dutch are commies too then (apart from the socialised medicine.. but the health plan is still pretty general).

I salute thee, comrade. :thumb001:

[Grumpy Cat]

Then I am a proud commie too. As we Dutch are commies too then (apart from the socialised medicine.. but the health plan is still pretty general).

I salute thee, comrade. :thumb001:

I salute you, too. I'm wearing a red shirt today.

[Joe McCarthy]

loool. Bad comparison. Canadians are leaving by choice.

I know you Americans think Canada is a communist country, and are obsessed with trying to prove it, but we're not. If anything, we have a more free market than the US (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking).

No, I'm alluding to the fact that what is happening in many parts of the West on a voluntary basis once took the Red Guards to accomplish. That should be troubling to anyone of even a remotely traditionalist mindset, though I will add that there is something distinctly Bolshevik about the activist secularists who want to destroy public expressions of religious sentiment, as it involves removing a lot of old monuments and such with a religious tone, that have cultural value for their own sake.

[Joe McCarthy]

What a piss poor comparison given that people leave by choice then and churches can be used for something else: as a community centre, a library, a place for silent contemplation, museum, a hotel (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289934&postcount=5), apartments (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289829&postcount=4), a shop (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=289940&postcount=6) or market etc.

Hell.. in some cases maybe even a spa ;)


Yes, turn churches into something productive for the new socialist man. That is EXACTLY what happened in the Soviet Union.

[Grumpy Cat]

No, I'm alluding to the fact that what is happening in many parts of the West on a voluntary basis once took the Red Guards to accomplish. That should be troubling to anyone of even a remotely traditionalist mindset, though I will add that there is something distinctly Bolshevik about the activist secularists who want to destroy public expressions of religious sentiment, as it involves removing a lot of old monuments and such with a religious tone, that have cultural value for their own sake.

Noone's removing religious monuments in Canada. People realize it's part of our history, and want to maintain them.

Even atheists would object to removing them.

We also maintain old historic churches, I mean MILLIONS of dollars go into them every year.

It's just the small ugly ones that are abandoned and boarded up.

[Loki]

No, I'm alluding to the fact that what is happening in many parts of the West on a voluntary basis once took the Red Guards to accomplish. That should be troubling to anyone of even a remotely traditionalist mindset, though I will add that there is something distinctly Bolshevik about the activist secularists who want to destroy public expressions of religious sentiment, as it involves removing a lot of old monuments and such with a religious tone, that have cultural value for their own sake.

The abandonment of religion itself was not the fault of the communists ... but the forcefulness thereof. In Europe now people are abandoning religion by free choice. That is something entirely different.

[The Lawspeaker]

There is actually a lot of concern about the many church buildings (compounded by the fact that we have so many religious groups) that will become without use in the coming decades as the population will move from the province to the city. They are trying to find new uses for them and in some cases it works very well as those churches, cathedrals, abbeys etc once were the focal point of a community and have a lot of history and sentiment attached to it remain the vocal point of a community in a new use. I am thinking about a church that has become a museum (in Utrecht), churches that are converted into luxurious apartments or in shops (one has become a supermarket), the cloisters in Maastricht that have now become a hotel and a book shop (and the most beautiful bookshop in Europe !).


Yes, turn churches into something productive for the new socialist man. That is EXACTLY what happened in the Soviet Union.


"New Socialist Man" if only... We are becoming more hypercapitalistic (American -style) by the day. Would you want to knock down age old monuments ?

Ooh wait: you as an American can't possibly comprehend history and the significance of monuments.

[anonymaus]

Canada is communist because we have free health care and we don't treat our poor like animals (which, I thought helping the poor was a Christian value, and Americans claim to be so Christian). :coffee:

In fairness, we have more of a fascist health care system: private corporations forced to work for the government toward the common good. As for helping the poor, Americans lead the world in charitable donations by a margin of almost 300% over the second-most; you may be confusing helping the poor--commonly called charity--with redistribution of wealth. Americans suffer the redistribution of their wealth through taxation and social spending AND give more to charity than any other people.

[Grumpy Cat]

The abandonment of religion itself was not the fault of the communists ... but the forcefulness thereof. In Europe now people are abandoning religion by free choice. That is something entirely different.

Americans are black and white thinkers: it's like they're incapable of seeing grey.

This is why I don't talk politics with them.

Like, I say I'm for gun control, they assume I'm for banning all guns. Umm.. no, I actually believe as long as you don't have a mental illness or criminal record you should be able to own as many guns as you want.

I don't hate other races: Oh I'm a pro-multiculti cultural Marxist liberal feminazi elitist.

[Loki]

Americans are black and white thinkers: it's like they're incapable of seeing grey.


Sounds like my family back home. :cry2

[Grumpy Cat]

Sounds like my family back home. :cry2

:lol: My mother's like that too, don't feel so bad.

[anonymaus]

Americans suffer the redistribution of their wealth through taxation and social spending AND give more to charity than any other people.

Just to expand on this a little: indexes have been created in recent years showing an inversely proportional relationship between government social spending and private charity and, also, that those who believe in such redistribution of wealth will give significantly less to charity than those who are against it. It isn't wholly intuitive at first blush but, upon reflection, it makes sense. I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the role of religion in such affairs.

[Joe McCarthy]

Just to expand on this a little: indexes have been created in recent years showing an inversely proportional relationship between government social spending and private charity and, also, that those who believe in such redistribution of wealth will give significantly less to charity than those who are against it. It isn't wholly intuitive at first blush but, upon reflection, it makes sense. I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the role of religion in such affairs.

Charles Murray made precisely that argument in What It Means To Be A Libertarian, and used data to support it. Basically government redistribution drives out private charity, and adds the extra expense of high cost bureaucracy on top of it.

[Eldritch]

Same goes for Finland and Switzerland, imo. We have, still, a fairly large and active pietist movement, Laestadians, not to mention a growing Muslim minority. :coffee:

Religion isn't going to be extinct in Finland anytime soon. Finland's Evangelical Lutheran church probably will be, though.

In fact, it's already dead, and people are mistaking the process of decomposition for signs of life.

[Loki]

Charles Murray made precisely that argument in What It Means To Be A Libertarian, and used data to support it. Basically government redistribution drives out private charity, and adds the extra expense of high cost bureaucracy on top of it.

Private charity is uncoordinated, though. A centrally managed charity, or 'redistribution' if you may, is more effective in reaching those who really need it.

[Grumpy Cat]

Private charity is uncoordinated, though. A centrally managed charity, or 'redistribution' if you may, is more effective in reaching those who really need it.

Yes. I grew up in Nova Scotia in the 90s, so I benefited from Canada's redistribution model (equalization payments, ACOA, etc.). If it wasn't for them, we probably would freeze in the dark (well, which is what Stephen Harper wants) because I cannot picture some charity giving us anything (97% white, lol yeah right, do-gooders wouldn't give us shit and ultra-conservatives don't donate to charity).

And Alberta can whine about that all they want - but remember before the developments in Fort McMoney, it was NS paying equalization to Alberta. Pay what you owe. In fact, NS is no-longer a "have-not province" and we are currently paying equalization to some of those paid to us in the 90s.

[Hess]

organized Christianity is certainly declining in a number of countries. However, there are many people (especially in Europe) who don't go to church and don't necessarily believe everything in the bible bu still call themselves Christians. That demographic is alive and well.

[Joe McCarthy]

We should add that churches DO play a major role in charitable giving. I doubt there is a bigger charity distributor on earth than the Catholic Church, for example, and as belief wanes we can expect this function to move more toward the state, just as I'm sure our former commissars of the new socialist man would have preferred.

[The Lawspeaker]

Bla bla bla, Joe. As a matter of fact do "Christians" usually only donate money in order to become more well known throughout the Christian community or to buy off their sins. A kind of indulgence.

"Charity" if you may is paid for by your membership fee paid to your community. It's also known as taxation. That, I believe, is far more Christian then just giving money to pay off your sins and a lot of that money actually goes to the preacher and the organisation he represents. And face it: your American (let alone the African) churches are even worse then our own.

"Modern" organised religion (in America even worse then in Europe but it's spreading it's ugly tentacles here now too) is more like a business then a religion anyways.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/CrystalCathedral.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Joel_Osteen_at_Lakewood_Church.JPG

In taxation a lot of the money does end up where it should be.

[Grumpy Cat]

Yeah, I'm not religious at all and I donate to charity.

Sorry, I can't not donate to the food bank when food has gone up so much that I'm now spending more than $100/week on groceries, and I live alone and make good money. I don't know how a single mother with kids, working for minimum wage does it.

[anonymaus]

Yeah, I'm not religious at all and I donate to charity.

Sorry, I can't not donate to the food bank when food has gone up so much that I'm now spending more than $100/week on groceries, and I live alone and make good money. I don't know how a single mother with kids, working for minimum wage does it.

Not easily, regardless of the state of her wallet.

That's a lot of money on groceries. What are the prices like for common items where you live? Dairy is notoriously expensive here, now, with a 3/4lb brick of decent cheese retailing for 9 dollars or more.

[Grumpy Cat]

Not easily, regardless of the state of her wallet.

That's a lot of money on groceries. What are the prices like for common items where you live? Dairy is notoriously expensive here, now, with a 3/4lb brick of decent cheese retailing for 9 dollars or more.

Well, I spend a lot of money too, because I buy everything fresh. It would be cheaper to buy frozen or canned, but no.

Dairy is very expensive and yes, a brick of cheese here would be over $10.

I eat a lot more fish in the summer because it's season and I can buy fish at the pier directly from a fisherman for much cheaper than at the supermarket.

[Debaser11]

Bla bla bla, Joe. As a matter of fact do "Christians" usually only donate money in order to become more well known throughout the Christian community or to buy off their sins. A kind of indulgence.

Way to slander a whole group by using a fringe segment of the population. The vast majority of Christians I have met are not like you describe and the vast majority of them don't go to megachurchs (even though these churches are growing) that are on television. Furthermore, I don't know how you can just make a blanket charge against Christians so matter of factly without even supporting your claim other than using a few pictures of, again, churches that do not account for the majority of Christians.


"Charity" if you may is paid for by your membership fee paid to your community. It's also known as taxation. That, I believe, is far more Christian then just giving money to pay off your sins and a lot of that money actually goes to the preacher and the organisation he represents.

lol You speak as if governments aren't corrupt or don't waste money. The government does far worse things with your money on a far larger scale. Furthermore, this attempt to undermine Christians due to corrupt pastors also doesn't take into account the intent behind most Christians being charitable. Unless you have some magical way of gaging what is in most annonymous Christians' hearts, I find this comment to be completely unjustified.


[And face it: your American (let alone the African) churches are even worse then our own.

"Modern" organised religion (in America even worse then in Europe but it's spreading it's ugly tentacles here now too) is more like a business then a religion anyways.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/CrystalCathedral.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Joel_Osteen_at_Lakewood_Church.JPG

In taxation a lot of the money does end up where it should be.

So I guess you'll buy any bridge as long as the gubmint sells it to you? You trust giving your money to some large bureaucratic body over a pastor that you could actually get to know on a first-person basis? Honestly, the way you condescend towards Christians wholesale is pretty ridiculous. And yet it's the Europeans and Canadians that say Americans are too black and white?


Americans are black and white thinkers: it's like they're incapable of seeing grey.

This is why I don't talk politics with them.

I think by "black and white thinkers," you mean full of conviction and principled. People who don't compromise to make nice-nice. People who aren't wishy washy. People with gravitas.

If you mean "black and white" in the sense that they won't budge on philosophical issues like abortion and the like, then I think Americans should be proud to bear that label. If you mean "incapble of seeing gray" in the sense that they don't appreciate the variation within a large group (such as Christians), I implore to read the other poster's post I responded to above yours and then tell me that it's the Americans who don't see gray.


Like, I say I'm for gun control, they assume I'm for banning all guns. Umm.. no, I actually believe as long as you don't have a mental illness or criminal record you should be able to own as many guns as you want.

I agree that some Americans do overract on this issue. But you have to understand that we do have liberals that have tried to actually ban guns and we do have a Second Amendment (which I take it that Canada does not). In the city of Chicago, for example, I think it's still illegal to have a firearm in your possession. (At least, I think that's what I read.) Yet, it's easy for crooks to get them. This makes people upset. People who play by the rules don't like being handicapped. Far more Americans are the victims of gun violence than in other countries. Gun control isn't going to save Americans, either. It's just going to make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect themselves and they are, again, quite touchy about issues involving personal safety.

But I will admit, if they are jumping on you, it's probably not fair. But we get as good as we give. Where I'm from, everyone assumes we're all crazy rednecks who want to shoot each other. Yet, most people I know just like guns as a hobby. I have never been scared of some county folk with a gun. The country folks are not out murdering people with them the way other demographics are. Yet it's always played up (by jackass liberals like Michael Moore who I realize is American) that we all are shooting at each other. So people on both sides of the gun issue overreact.

But I think your position is reasonable.


I don't hate other races: Oh I'm a pro-multiculti cultural Marxist liberal feminazi elitist.

Most Americans are pro-multi cult. They voted in Obama. Even a large number of red blooded Americans (read: whites) helped vote Obama into office and go along with the "diversity is our strength." So I don't quite get this characterization of Americans. I don't think any nationality thinks like that on this issue. Being called a "racist" in the West will make even the most conservative types tremble.

[Oreka Bailoak]

I don't believe in Christianity at all. I think taking it literally is ridiculous.

But I go to church every weekend because I like their moral values and being around other highly moral people. It's a great family environment.

Church people are crazy with donations, my parents owe so much money on our house (100,000 if I remember correctly), on my college loans (20 thousand) my brothers college loans etc. and yet my parents spend 10% of their money or $8,000 towards church charities in Africa helping build housing, education and funding children orphanages. My parents sponsor two children, one in Cambodia and another in Nigeria- both are orphans at a cost of 40 dollars per month to pay for their food, clothes, housing and education.

Another guy at our church adopted an orphan from Nigeria, and one of my Swedish Lutheran friends parents adopted TWO African children (lol how many of you atheists would do that). Our local community church donates millions of dollars towards African orphans. Our building and pastor salary are actually only a small portion of the overall donations.

I know I could never donate as much as Christian people can because as an atheist I don't have the desire to help people before paying off my own loans. Atheists are more greedy than Christians.

[Joe McCarthy]

Oreka, thank you for reminding us, even if unintentionally, why in practice charity is often not such a hot idea. Herbert Spencer contended that the effect of charity was to lift up the botched and create more misery in the long run by creating more of them by subsidizing them. The problem is that liberal secularists of the social worker variety are even more fanatical in their do-goodism, and manage to waste money at the point of a gun through state mandates. We at least DO have the option of not giving Pastor Do-Good charitable donations for his latest scheme to sponsor tar babies coming to the US.

[Grumpy Cat]

Herbert Spencer contended that the effect of charity was to lift up the botched and create more misery in the long run by creating more of them by subsidizing them.

This is a good point. Many parts of the Third World make a good example. Charities are throwing things at them and they are not doing for themselves, hence becoming dependent on them. Farmers in Africa grow their crops, and try to sell them to make an honest living, but when everybody's getting free handouts from NGOs they're not going to buy from the farmer... so the farmer goes broke and he too has to take from the charity. It's a dangerous situation that NGOs have caused there. An old saying is "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime".

I think charity should take the same principles. Instead of just handouts like food stamps to the poor, I think more scholarships should be set up for them so they can get training to improve their lives themselves. This is less of a burden on charities, and less of a burden on the taxpayer as well.

Handouts should only be available to those who really need it: people who are unable to work for medical or other unforeseen reasons.

[Cato]

By religion, the article really means Christianity.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Boarded up, abandoned churches.

Sounds like the Soviet Union under Stalin.

Sounds like heaven to me.

[Äike]

I find it interesting that the 4 least religious countries in the world aren't mentioned in the article. Estonia is the least religious country in the world, followed by other Nordic countries of Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

The Lutheran mentality paved the road for this non-religiousness.

[Grumpy Cat]

I find it interesting that the 4 least religious countries in the world aren't mentioned in the article. Estonia is the least religious country in the world, followed by other Nordic countries of Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

The Lutheran mentality paved the road for this non-religiousness.

But aren't people born into the Lutheran church and then they just don't bother to leave?

[Äike]

But aren't people born into the Lutheran church and then they just don't bother to leave?

I don't know what you mean. I am personally a baptized Lutheran, but I do not have the slightest idea if I am part of any church or not. I am non-religious, like other Estonians.

Over here, churches are mostly synonymous with museums, few people go there on Sundays.

[Grumpy Cat]

Over here, churches are mostly synonymous with museums, few people go there on Sundays.

Same here, they attract tourists.

[CelticTemplar]

I just found out recently at my school a few weeks ago that there were dozes of atheists/agnostics in my grade. Which I found strange considering that I live in a very Catholic/Protestant area.

Maybe its just not cool enough.

[Joe McCarthy]

Atheism is an absence of cool. It's an absence of... anything, a void.

[Loki]

Atheism is an absence of cool. It's an absence of... anything, a void.

Its essence is the presence of realism and objectivity.

[CelticTemplar]

So would you say that in some cases Atheism is a way for teenagers to rebel against their religious parents?

[Joe McCarthy]

So would you say that in some cases Atheism is a way for teenagers to rebel against their religious parents?

Historically atheism has always represented rebellion. What else could it represent?

[Grumpy Cat]

So would you say that in some cases Atheism is a way for teenagers to rebel against their religious parents?

Nope. My mother is atheist. If I wanted to rebel, I'd go to church.

[CelticTemplar]

Historically atheism has always represented rebellion. What else could it represent?

I suppose a strong urge to find out things that the Bible or The Church can't explain with solid concrete facts. Facts that sometimes need faith to be believable, regardless of your religion.

[Treffie]

Nope. My mother is atheist. If I wanted to rebel, I'd go to church.

This is what happened to me. I decided to rebel against my parents by discovering God.

[CelticTemplar]

This is what happened to me. I decided to rebel against my parents by discovering God.

At what age if you don't mind me asking? And how did you go about doing it?

[Grumpy Cat]

This is what happened to me. I decided to rebel against my parents by discovering God.

I never did that, though I dabbled in Heathenry for a while. My mother thinks all religion is equally irrational.

However, my mother brought me to the Catholic church, part to familiarize myself with it... but after Sunday school she would make sure to tell me to take it all with a grain of salt. But the other part, she was afraid my siblings and I would get bullied if we weren't at least familiarized with our religion.

[anonymaus]

Historically atheism has always represented rebellion. What else could it represent?

For a small minority it represents nothing; I lack belief in the supernatural, and am made incapable of believing in it by a functioning rational faculty. Evidence would sway me, but none has ever existed in the recorded history of man--it is reasonable to live one's life absent the decrees of men who claim to speak on behalf of the supernatural.

[Radola]

Oh yeah, another thing we are best at :laugh:...but here it´s not because of communism but the tradition of being not religious goes into 17th century - 30 years war - mostly protestant Czechs were forced to become catholics and since the time there is an aversion against religion in general (but OFC communists contributed, too I guess - on the other hand check out other former communist countries like Poland, Slovakia, Serbia (?) and others which are "super religious").

[Amapola]

That is virtually impossible. The religious content is just transferred into other stuff, like nationalism or whatever. Still a religion though... man is not man without trascendece or symbols. The term religion is very lame.

[Lars]

All countries in Scandinavia, Iceland and Estland will beat all those countries in the survey to it. I have no doubt about that.
In less than 100 years religion will just be part of school children's history class, apart from numerous small and privately driven denominations around the countries, which nobody will take any serious note to in the public discourse.

[Adalwolf]

For a small minority it represents nothing; I lack belief in the supernatural, and am made incapable of believing in it by a functioning rational faculty. Evidence would sway me, but none has ever existed in the recorded history of man--it is reasonable to live one's life absent the decrees of men who claim to speak on behalf of the supernatural.

How would a person who has a spiritual experience ever prove it to another neutral citizen? It is impossible unless you experience it yourself. Which is why plenty of self-proclaimed skeptics suddenly change beliefs and cannot justly explain it to the non-believers.

[Treffie]

At what age if you don't mind me asking?

14


And how did you go about doing it?

Through a schoolfriend. Attended church and believed everything that was thrown at me.

[anonymaus]

How would a person who has a spiritual experience ever prove it to another neutral citizen? It is impossible unless you experience it yourself. Which is why plenty of self-proclaimed skeptics suddenly change beliefs and cannot justly explain it to the non-believers.

It would be a very different world, and religion wouldn't be religion as we know it, if the extent of proselytizing was "when it happens to you, stop by the Church."

Very different indeed.

[Sikeliot]

From the perspective of a non-religious American, I wish it would disappear here too.

[Osweo]

How would a person who has a spiritual experience ever prove it to another neutral citizen? It is impossible unless you experience it yourself.

Absolutely. But this highly personal phenomenon doesn't really ring true with the supposedly omnipotent omnibenevolent omniscient god of Christianity, which is the 'religion' that the most vocal western atheists reject. Rejecting all spirituality is a step that too many take without thinking, after this first step of rejecting Christianity.

That a Christian has a spiritual experience should not, of course, be taken as proof of the dogma of Christianity. People all over the world have such experiences, regardless of their religious tradition. The accounts often share a great deal, though the subjects interpret in their culturally informed way. I rarely see atheists tackling this issue with the informed position that it deserves.

[Thorum]

Which is why plenty of self-proclaimed skeptics suddenly change beliefs and cannot justly explain it to the non-believers.

Interesting. Can you give us specific examples of these self-proclaimed skeptics? I would like to read about them and their experiences.

[Thorum]

Absolutely. But this highly personal phenomenon doesn't really ring true with the supposedly omnipotent omnibenevolent omniscient god of Christianity, which is the 'religion' that the most vocal western atheists reject. Rejecting all spirituality is a step that too many take without thinking, after this first step of rejecting Christianity.

That a Christian has a spiritual experience should not, of course, be taken as proof of the dogma of Christianity. People all over the world have such experiences, regardless of their religious tradition. The accounts often share a great deal, though the subjects interpret in their culturally informed way. I rarely see atheists tackling this issue with the informed position that it deserves.

Here is one atheist's take on Spiritual Experience:

Sam Harris on spiritual experience (http://integralpostmetaphysics.ning.com/forum/topics/sam-harris-on-spiritual)

[Thorum]

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197)

The first tangible benefit when this eventually happens? A large amount of money available for science and space research, libraries and Universities and the like...

[Raskolnikov]

The first tangible benefit when this eventually happens? A large amount of money available for science and space research, libraries and Universities and the like...
One of the 'race/social/national problems' is money going to psychology, sociology, anthropology, ecology, etc, with a political edge, so I don't see people as non-religious, whatever that would mean. People dropped Christianity precisely in favour of what is, at least in regards to and applied to humans, incorrect deterministic science. It would be as if aliens took the worst or in a way least human/experiential part of Christianity - clericism - and made it stand alone in favour of themselves with the undeniable edge of always being "at least more true than stupid religion" more and more represented by idiots the more it is attacked as idiotic.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1879/palinarmed.jpg

I have heard Harris praise the social exclusion of 'racists' along with Elvis believers through employment, academia, etc. I don't mean he is an evil son of a bitch, but it is telling, and his book even explained how certain countries should be invaded ala Iraq using the excuse of Islam for the purposes of spreading our great 'economically superior' civilisation.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2407/scientology.jpg

[Thorum]

I have heard Harris praise the social exclusion of 'racists' along with Elvis believers through employment, academia, etc. I don't mean he is an evil son of a bitch, but it is telling, and his book even explained how certain countries should be invaded ala Iraq using the excuse of Islam for the purposes of spreading our great 'economically superior' civilisation.

I didn't know this about Mr. Harris. Can you refer me to the source of your above comments so I can read more about his thoughts?

[Raskolnikov]

I cannot, because it is not in print and I was never able to find it. He said this and I saw on it on some Youtube video.

Like I said, he's not a horrible guy, and that's in line with the usual type of thing he says. It's not exactly wrong, it's the unremovable element of intolerance that goes with any society, but nevertheless, he shows he understands what happened, and that reaffirms what I was saying.

[Thorum]

Ah, ok. Can you refer me to the book you mention and the YouTube video so I can watch it?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Its essence is the presence of realism and objectivity.

Aye.

But the second best thing is to hug trees and talk to the worm on the hook.

[Raskolnikov]

Ah, ok. Can you refer me to the book you mention and the YouTube video so I can watch it?
The End of Faith for his hint on regime change (you can d/l the pdf like I did), and like I said I cannot find where he spoke of racism - I had gone through so many of his videos it was impossible for me to remember which it was.

[Adalwolf]

Interesting. Can you give us specific examples of these self-proclaimed skeptics? I would like to read about them and their experiences.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/testimonies/

[Thorum]

Which is why plenty of self-proclaimed skeptics suddenly change beliefs...

Thanks for the website link. The quaint, romantic and credulous stories were fun to read. If that is your evidence for "plenty of ... skeptics suddenly changing beliefs" then I am unconvinced...