HS: Immigrants account for half of Finland’s population growth

[Rongoteus]

Calm down and count to ten before reading this p.o.s:



Immigrants account for half of Finland’s population growth


The Finnish population is now growing largely thanks to an influx of immigrants.
From 2007 onwards, more than half of the country’s population growth has been from immigration. Before that, most of the growth in the Finnish population was attributed to children born to Finnish citizens, as well as a relatively low death rate.
“Immigration is no longer a marginal phenomenon. We are now at the European average”, says Arno Tanner of the Finnish Immigration Service.

The number of foreign citizens living in Finland has increased more than six-fold in the past 20 years. The total number of immigrants living in Finland is about 170,000.
In 1999 fewer than 15,000 immigrants settled in Finland. Last year the number was nearly 25,000. Some of the immigration was by returning migrants – Finnish expatriates who are now coming back.

A surge in immigration took place in 2004.
“The EU expanded and impediments to movement of labour were lifted. Immigration has nevertheless increased considerably from all continents”, says Matti Saari of Statistics Finland.

In 2010 there were 24,000 applicants for residence permits, 16,000 of whom were accepted. The biggest group, nearly 4,500, came to Finland to study, while 3,000 were granted residence permits for work.
Of the more than 4,000 applicants for asylum, 1,800 were accepted.
“Asylum seekers get more attention, even though there is ten times more work-based immigration”, Tanner points out.

Tanner predicts that applications for asylum will increase considerably, especially from the restless areas of North Africa.
Saari and Tanner point out that immigration is an important source of labour, especially for urban areas of Finland.
“It is unlikely that the unemployed in Finland could be re-educated in such a way that they could meet the need for labour especially in the caring professions”, Tanner says.

Statistics Finland reports that a fifth of foreigners of working age living in Finland were unemployed in 2008.
Saari explains this relatively small figure with the fact that to be officially listed as unemployed, a person has to register with an employment office and to be available for job offers. Being approved as a legal immigrant also often requires that the person should have a job.
“Many take the assumption that their language skills are insufficient, and consequently do not bother to register”, Saari says.

“Employment is a key element of integration. It is not possible to get a job if you don’t know the language”, Arno Tanner says.
He sees much room for improvement in language training for immigrants.
About one in four immigrants are outside the work force.

The Finnish population is now growing largely thanks to an influx of immigrants.

Thanks? No thanks for this kind of devolution. Our industrial workplaces are slipping to places like China, and India, We do not need any kind growing of population.

Source (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Immigrants+account+for+half+of+Finland%E2%80%99s+p opulation+growth/1135264848041)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Well, we do need population growth, but we also need to determine what kind of population growth it is.

[Moonbird]

Well, we do need population growth, but we also need to determine what kind of population growth it is.

Finland has such a small numbered population so whatever immigrant groups that come will have a great impact on the Finnish people. Some of the current immigrants are probably not the most desirable ones for this purpose.

[CelticTemplar]

Bloody horrible, it's like the 50 million mestizos here in the The United States.

[Aino]

Most of the immigrants in Finland are from Europe--from Russia, Estonia, Sweden, former Yugoslavia, Germany, UK, Poland, France, Italy, Spain, Romania, Norway, Hungary.

[Moonbird]

Most of the foreigners living in Finland 2010 were from Estonia, Russia, Sweden, Somalia, China, Iraq and Thailand.

Most of the Finnish citizenships granted 2006-2009 were to persons from Russia, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Estonia and Former Serbia and Montenegro.

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html#foreigners

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Finland has such a small numbered population so whatever immigrant groups that come will have a great impact on the Finnish people..

Not really true. It must be quite a massive immigration to alter the Finnish peoples genetical set up.

[The Ripper]

Not really true. It must be quite a massive immigration to alter the Finnish peoples genetical set up.

We are being set-up for massive immigration. The only thing stopping it is the increased awareness of the man on the street, and this is largely thanks to the "immigration critics". Economic growth is prioritized and all other aims are subordinate to it, including the continued existence of the Finnish nation. We are all to become individual consumers, simple as that.

[Eldritch]

... It must be quite a massive immigration to alter the Finnish peoples genetical set up.

Which is what will happen if the EU's "burden sharing" program is set up. Notice that it's based partly on the target country's geographical size (as if that were somehow relevant). But the fact is that the burden that we'll have to share will not be evenly distributed around each one of this country square kilometers.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Mass immigration is not going to happen as we are not asking for it (industrial needs, rapid population decline). I dont know about the burden sharing programme. In the end I believe it's the political choices made here in Finland which will determine in what EU projects we are taking part in. For instance EMU was voluntarily, right?

[Moonbird]

I we take the Somalis as an example. According to an article from last year their number in Finland increase by nearly ten per cent in a year. In the Helsinki region, about half of the growth in the Somali population involves children born in Finland. According to a researcher the speech patterns of young Finns in the East of Helsinki already show signs of an indirect influence of the Somali language.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Somali+population+in+Finland+growing+fast/1135256885942

The numbers of Somalis in Finland isn't that big now, but with all future Somali immigrants plus all of those who will be granted residence permits in the future on the basis of family ties and the fact that an average Somali family has 8-10 children, I'd say they are going to have an impact on the Finnish population.

[Don]

Not really true. It must be quite a massive immigration to alter the Finnish peoples genetical set up.

http://www.artesonado.com/tempo/sorpresa.jpg

[The Ripper]

I we take the Somalis as an example. According to an article from last year their number in Finland increase by nearly ten per cent in a year. In the Helsinki region, about half of the growth in the Somali population involves children born in Finland. According to a researcher the speech patterns of young Finns in the East of Helsinki already show signs of an indirect influence of the Somali language.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Somali+population+in+Finland+growing+fast/1135256885942

Interestingly enough, I could notice this "ghettoization" of language already many years ago among some Finns I knew that went to the "most multicultural" school of my city.


The numbers of Somalis in Finland isn't that big now, but with all future Somali immigrants plus all of those who will be granted residence permits in the future on the basis of family ties and the fact that an average Somali family has 8-10 children, I'd say they are going to have an impact on the Finnish population.

So far intermarriage between Finns and Somalis is extremely low, though.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Well, we do need population growth

not neccesarily agreeing or disagreeing, but why?

to keep the russians at bay? ;)

[Aino]

So far intermarriage between Finns and Somalis is extremely low, though.

What do you people think about intermarriages between Finns and Somalis? Would you prefer that Somalis marry Finns or other Somalis? If Somalis are here to stay--which they seem to be--would it be better that a Somali marry a Finn and have, let us say, two to three mixed children who learn Finnish values and culture at home from their Finnish parent? If such mixed children were later to have children with ethnically pure Finns, I bet the children would not look much different from other Finns. They might even look better than many pure Finns, as Somalis tend to have fine features.

Or would it be better that Somalis keep to themselves, marry other Somalis only, and give birth to a hoard of Somali children, who in turn repeat the same pattern? If you prefer this option, do you think that the generations of Somalis born and raised in Finland will later want to have huge families, or will they be happy with just a few kids like Finns.

[The Ripper]

not neccesarily agreeing or disagreeing, but why?

to keep the russians at bay? ;)

Cannonfodder! ;)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101005031839/southpark/images/thumb/e/ef/Human_Shield.jpg/830px-Human_Shield.jpg

[The Ripper]

What do you people think about intermarriages between Finns and Somalis? Would you prefer that Somalis marry Finns or other Somalis? If Somalis are here to stay--which they seem to be--would it be better that a Somali marry a Finn and have, let us say, two to three mixed children who learn Finnish values and culture at home from their Finnish parent? If such mixed children were later to have children with ethnically pure Finns, I bet the children would not look much different from other Finns. They might even look better than many pure Finns, as Somalis tend to have fine features.

Or would it better that Somalis keep to themselves, marry other Somalis only, and give birth to a hoard of Somali children, who in turn repeat the same pattern? If you prefer this option, do you think that the generation of Somalis born and raised in Finland will later want to have huge families or will they be happy with just a few kids like Finns.

I detest Somalis too much to want them to interbreed with Finns. I don't really care for any "finer features". Besides, in my experience, the ones that do mix tend to represent the worst types, on both the Finnish and the Somali side.

[Aino]

I detest Somalis too much to want them to interbreed with Finns. I don't really care for any "finer features". Besides, in my experience, the ones that do mix tend to represent the worst types, on both the Finnish and the Somali side.

So you would rather see them keep to themselves, forming ever expanding Somali communities, maybe even taking over entire areas within cities?

[The Ripper]

So you would rather see them keep to themselves, forming ever expanding Somali communities?

I would send them packing. But its not up to me, is it.

[Moonbird]

What do you people think about intermarriages between Finns and Somalis? Would you prefer that Somalis marry Finns or other Somalis? If Somalis are here to stay--which they seem to be--would it be better that a Somali marry a Finn and have, let us say, two to three mixed children who learn Finnish values and culture at home from their Finnish parent? If such mixed children were later to have children with ethnically pure Finns, I bet the children would not look much different from other Finns. They might even look better than many pure Finns, as Somalis tend to have fine features.

Or would it be better that Somalis keep to themselves, marry other Somalis only, and give birth to a hoard of Somali children, who in turn repeat the same pattern? If you prefer this option, do you think that the generations of Somalis born and raised in Finland will later want to have huge families, or will they be happy with just a few kids like Finns.

The famous choice between pest and cholera.:rolleyes:

The only good option would be a third one, that the situation in their home country would become so much better that the majority of them would return home. However, that's not likely to happen in the near future.

As far as mixed marriages is concerned I assume it would in that case be mostly Finnish women marrying Somali men. Women marrying into another cultures seem to fully integrate with the new one. Saying that it's more likely that the mixed children would learn Somali values and culture at home and not Finnish ones.

It's true that many Somalis have fine Caucasian facial traits. The Finns would surely benefit more phenotypically mixing with them than with e.g. Thais. The problems as I see it are the Somalis' very different culture, lifestyle and religion.

The other suggestion that the Somalis would keep to themselves and only marrying other Somalis isn't a good one either. That's because I think they would continue to have big hoards of Somali children and turn into a huge minority in the country in a not very far future.

So, it doesn't seem to exist any good solution to this problem. :(

[Don]

Somalis, interesting. I think these are the unique kind of invader parasites we haven't here (in huge ammounts).

They only parasite us from their homelands. They know our stupid government pays for our kidnapped.

[Eldritch]

So you would rather see them keep to themselves, forming ever expanding Somali communities, maybe even taking over entire areas within cities?

I'm fully in agreement wit Riip's reply to the first question, so I'll just pick it up here: yes, that's the lesser evil than them "integrating" or mixing with Finns.

But obviously I do not want that to happen.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

What do you people think about intermarriages between Finns and Somalis? Would you prefer that Somalis marry Finns or other Somalis? If Somalis are here to stay--which they seem to be--would it be better that a Somali marry a Finn and have, let us say, two to three mixed children who learn Finnish values and culture at home from their Finnish parent? If such mixed children were later to have children with ethnically pure Finns, I bet the children would not look much different from other Finns. They might even look better than many pure Finns, as Somalis tend to have fine features.

Or would it be better that Somalis keep to themselves, marry other Somalis only, and give birth to a hoard of Somali children, who in turn repeat the same pattern? If you prefer this option, do you think that the generations of Somalis born and raised in Finland will later want to have huge families, or will they be happy with just a few kids like Finns.

Good question. For me, a person who is half Finnish is a much better choice than someone who's completely foreign. A half Finn brought up in a Finnish environment should by reason become more Finnish and share Finnish values and be one just like the rest of us.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The only good option would be a third one, that the situation in their home country would become so much better that the majority of them would return home.
Of course, this is the most desireable.

As far as mixed marriages is concerned I assume it would in that case be mostly Finnish women marrying Somali men. Women marrying into another cultures seem to fully integrate with the new one. Saying that it's more likely that the mixed children would learn Somali values and culture at home and not Finnish ones.
This is far from the entire truth.
When it comes to marrying into a muslim community it may be more true, but certainly not more frequent than very rarely. It has to happen either by free will or by force and in Finland we probably lose more people into the Hare Krishna cult than into muslim community.

Let's take two, at this moment, cases from the Finnish Idols programme, Ali and Fatima. Both have foreign fathers and both are Finns just like the rest of Finns. Their mothers did not vanish into a foreign culture.


It's true that many Somalis have fine Caucasian facial traits. The Finns would surely benefit more phenotypically mixing with them than with e.g. Thais. Silly you. The half Asian/European people I've seen tend to be more beautiful.


So, it doesn't seem to exist any good solution to this problem. It's the "Motörhead Remember Me's Outbreed Them Program" which is to be launched 2013., Sure, it's tricky, we have a number of unwanted and difficult to integrate immigrants but the only choice is to hammer in Finnish values and not let the foreign communities grow faster than they integrate.
One utopian way is to have 0 immigration for a few years and then accept "handpicked" ones. Take the Finnish Tatar and Old Russian communities. They were cut off to their homelands for decades and they were forced to integrate and did it succesfully.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

not neccesarily agreeing or disagreeing, but why?

to keep the russians at bay? ;)

If you don't understand immediately why our population should/must grow, I can't explain it to you.

[The Ripper]

If you don't understand immediately why our population should/must grow, I can't explain it to you.

If the truth is so "self-evident", it shouldn't be too difficult to point out "why".

[Moonbird]

If you don't understand immediately why our population should/must grow, I can't explain it to you.

The current unemployment rate in Finland is 8,4%. As long as this figure is that high I don't see any urgent need for population growth.

[Troll's Puzzle]

If you don't understand immediately why our population should/must grow, I can't explain it to you.
I can only guess three reasons,
(1) to provide enough people to deter billions of commies from the urals and beyond from invading and enslaving Finland to communism
(2) to provide enough people to invade Russia and create a greater Finland stretching to the Urals ;)
(3) to grow the economy

since 1 and 2 are fanciful at this point in time I would guess that 3 is the main reason why someone might claim that Finland's population must grow & that it must be augmented more rapidly via immigration to this end...
the only concretely true reason this might be useful so far as I can tell is to pay for bills, services, social secruity etc via increased tax revenue; in other words, to add another tier to the ponzi-scheme that govt. are running (it's not a crime when they do it y'see) which will collapse anyway, sometime, while selfishly taking that money from the young & unborn & selling out and wrecking the 'volk' into the bargin to boot.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Pyramid_scheme.svg/800px-Pyramid_scheme.svg.png
Essentially that's the best economic reason I can concieve for the large-scale continuous immigrants to Britain that they keep banging on about (it's to pay for the pensions!) (other than to provide cheap labour for greater profits for fatcats, which is good for them, I guess), and it needs to be continuous to keep the scheme running. When we go broke soon anyway all we'll have to show for it is ethnic-hell in our cities (like the bombers from bradford, or the black and paki communities of birmingham who've already been involved in serious race riots vs. each other), population density that's second to Bangladesh, shit services, no money, and little prospect for recovery. At least the boomers for whose benefit it was run won't quite have died yet so might starve to death for their sins (& the ones who have fled to their 2nd home somewhere in the med will be stoned to death by the natives :laugh:)

[Moonbird]

(2) to provide enough people to invade Russia and create a greater Finland stretching to the Urals ;)


Lol, the new Finn-Somalis taking over Russia :rolleyes:

[Turkophagos]

Good question. For me, a person who is half Finnish is a much better choice than someone who's completely foreign. A half Finn brought up in a Finnish environment should by reason become more Finnish and share Finnish values and be one just like the rest of us.

Only when it happens in limited numbers, every other generation, so it won't alter the country's cultural and racial status. This also depends on where the immigrants come from. I guess Finland could receive a lot of Estonian immigrants, for example, if it was needed with no problem, fewer it had to be Greeks or Italians, only a few tens of political refugees from China or Congo, etc.

[Troll's Puzzle]

I would send them packing. But its not up to me, is it.

Perhaps you'd better make it up to you, then :laugh:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZTInxdsRKgc/TTxRzWbthAI/AAAAAAAACoI/T7RTEBVsHzg/s1600/How+To+Stage+A+Military+Coup.jpg


go shopping (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Stage-Military-Coup-Execution/dp/1848325037/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301256690&sr=8-1)

[The Ripper]

Oh I already own this little booklet...

http://kuvat2.huuto.net/0/65/076505421c09d2ea15eccf8653d75-orig.jpg

Revolution and its realization in modern society by Kai Murros (http://www.kolumbus.fi/aquilon/intindex.htm).

I'm still in the planning stage...

[la bombe]

They might even look better than many pure Finns, as Somalis tend to have fine features.

Why do people always say this? Most of the East Africans I've seen look weird, sickly and starved, and not at all attractive. Their features are very foreign and not necessarily in a good way.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Why do people always say this? Most of the East Africans I've seen look weird, sickly and starved, and not at all attractive. Their features are very foreign and not necessarily in a good way.

TBH I think that East Africans (male and female) can be very handsome when not starved, but it's pretty lame that discussions of immigrants often end up talking about how good looking they & their descendants may or may not be when discussing pro's(& it's usually the second thing mentioned after what tasty food they bring with them, especially in 'mens mag' circles).
I guess I just feel the reasons to 'preserve' your 'people' (hate using both words like that) are the same as preserving myself, no matter how ugly or bad at cooking I may or may not be ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

If you don't understand immediately why our population should/must grow, I can't explain it to you.
But only if they're Finns. It's not a densely populated and it could easily house 10 million people.

[Eldritch]

But only if they're Finns. It's not a densely populated and it could easily house 10 million people.

Remember that 1/3 of this country is within the Arctic circle. Historically the "natural" population it can sustain has been about four million.

[la bombe]

TBH I think that East Africans (male and female) can be very handsome when not starved

IDK, I think the good-looking ones are more rare than people seem to think on raceboards. Maybe it's just my taste (I find Western European men attractive) and this kind of look is just completely foreign and unappealing

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00504/Mohamed-Osman-Moham_504961s.jpg
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss279/hotxxxxx/somali/Abdullahiyusuf10.jpg
http://dinahlord.typepad.com/.a/6a00e008d9a3f98834010536f134df970b-800wi
http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/de5adc68-5ba6-4425-a6c5-5d28b1d0cf16.grid-4x2.jpg

Anyone who thinks they need to mate with one of those guys in order to "improve their looks" must have some serious self-hatred issues.


but it's pretty lame that discussions of immigrants often end up talking about how good looking they & their descendants may or may not be when discussing pro's(& it's usually the first first mentioning what tasty food they bring with them, especially in 'mens mag' circles).
I guess I just feel the reasons to 'preserve' your 'people' (hate using both words like that) are the same as preserving myself, no matter how ugly or bad at cooking I may or may not be ;)

I don't know why looks are even brought up. So it's cool if your offspring end up being Muslim, as long as they have ~fine caucasoid features~? I'd rather have kids that look like my horrifically ugly, unprogressive self but I guess that's just me :p

[Moonbird]

I don't know why looks are even brought up. So it's cool if your offspring end up being Muslim, as long as they have ~fine caucasoid features~?

No, I don't personally want to mate with a Somali.

Their looks were mentioned because they do look better than most other black Africans. They usually don't have their negroid features.

[Sword of the Morning]

Not picking a fight here, just genuinely puzzled about a few things.


It's the "Motörhead Remember Me's Outbreed Them Program" which is to be launched 2013., Sure, it's tricky, we have a number of unwanted and difficult to integrate immigrants but the only choice is to hammer in Finnish values and not let the foreign communities grow faster than they integrate.
One utopian way is to have 0 immigration for a few years and then accept "handpicked" ones. Take the Finnish Tatar and Old Russian communities. They were cut off to their homelands for decades and they were forced to integrate and did it succesfully.

Aren't you worried that the immigrants currently residing within Finland's borders are enough to fundamentally change who the Finnish people are during the process of integration?

anything from the African continent, including "progressive" East Africans, is infinitely more foreign to Finland than a Russian or even a Tatar on every level I can see.]


Let's take two, at this moment, cases from the Finnish Idols programme, Ali and Fatima. Both have foreign fathers and both are Finns just like the rest of Finns. Their mothers did not vanish into a foreign culture.

Clearly not, with names like 'Ali' and 'Fatima.' :embarrassed

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, this is the Fatima in question:

http://www.ksml.fi/multimedia/dynamic/00181/Fatima_181948a1.jpg

:stop

So there's no difference between her and any other Finn, in your eyes? My apologies, but IMO that's an absolutely mind-boggling stance for a nationalist or preservationist to take.

Anyway, maybe she has acclimated to the behavioral expectations of Finland (I wouldn't know), but we can hardly expect the media masters to provide representative samples of the immigrant populations which are in the process of "enriching" our nations.

[Don]

I don't know why looks are even brought up. So it's cool if your offspring end up being Muslim, as long as they have ~fine caucasoid features~?


These guys have a better look? they look western after all
http://www.minutodigital.com/wp-content/uploads/mansur610.jpg
http://www.minutodigital.com/2011/03/27/los-vinculos-de-junta-islamica-con-el-regimen-terrorista-libio/

Well, these are the 2 spaniards converted to Islam, they are the heads of the Islam in Spain. They are these days in the news (only in some alternative media) because a semi-threat to Spain about 11-M, as well as dark relation with radical muslims in Libia, all that receiving public money for their Islamic association.

Don't know others, but they would be my first targets among the muslims, even before than the somali, etiopi or martian looking.

...

In my opinion is (and more will be) useful to recognise them (the foreigners) at first sight by their features as well as dangerous (by many reasons) that they acquire our phenotype, by conversion of locals or by mixing with locals.

This last option is a long term, of course, the longer, the greater phenotypic differences.

Did I ever said that I am a convinced and proud xenophobe? :wink

The finnish are not negros and to me they will never be, no matter how many documents they have proving their european nationality or how many idiots who dared to waste their blood with foreigners are among his ancestors.

The same goes for the bastards of that pic. They are no longer spaniards, they are just traitors, the most dangerous ones since we can not recognise them at first sight.

[la bombe]

Their looks were mentioned because they do look better than most other black Africans.

That's a personal opinion, one that I disagree with.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I can only guess three reasons,
(1) to provide enough people to deter billions of commies from the urals and beyond from invading and enslaving Finland to communism
(2) to provide enough people to invade Russia and create a greater Finland stretching to the Urals ;)
(3) to grow the economy



Bingo.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The current unemployment rate in Finland is 8,4%. As long as this figure is that high I don't see any urgent need for population growth.

Why not? Why is there unemployment?

Economical growth is linked to the availability of innovations and service providers, innovations and service are linked to ideas, ideas are linked to an open mind and a certain flow of people, be it travel or migration.
There is a higher unemplyment in Finlands backwaters than in the cities, why?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Only when it happens in limited numbers, every other generation, so it won't alter the country's cultural and racial status.

It was something in that way what I said, yes ...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Remember that 1/3 of this country is within the Arctic circle. Historically the "natural" population it can sustain has been about four million.

:confused:

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Their looks were mentioned because they do look better than most other black Africans. They usually don't have their negroid features.

I don't think they look any better or worse than other Africans.

I basically don't care if people mate with Pygmies or Maputo Indians, what I care more about is the values people have.
Finland is not America and we will never go that direction in massive ethnic blending. A few thousand foreigners is not a threat racially, a few hundred thousand foreigners will be a threat culturally.
Go to some inbred region in Finland (Salla i.e.) and have a look around and listen to people talk, I'm sure you'd rethink if that other extreme is a much better choice.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Aren't you worried that the immigrants currently residing within Finland's borders are enough to fundamentally change who the Finnish people are during the process of integration?
Currently, no. Finland has very few immigrants and most are Europeans.


anything from the African continent, including "progressive" East Africans, is infinitely more foreign to Finland than a Russian or even a Tatar on every level I can see.]
Of course it is. But an African adopted to Finland brought up with Finnish values is a much better choice than a Russian nationalist straight out of Novosibirsk. I base this on personal experience.



Clearly not, with names like 'Ali' and 'Fatima.' :embarrassed
What the fuck's in a name??

So there's no difference between her and any other Finn, in your eyes? Mentally no. Racially clearly.

My apologies, but IMO that's an absolutely mind-boggling stance for a nationalist or preservationist to take.
Not as mind boggling as I find American nationalists to be (KKK, Michigan militia etc ...) I'm no racist, no. I'm a realist.

Anyway, maybe she has acclimated to the behavioral expectations of Finland She was brought up in Finland the Finnish way. I may not share her values ( I don't know what they are) but I respect her. After all, she's half Finnish. In my world that's twice as good as not Finnish at all.


but we can hardly expect the media masters to provide representative samples of the immigrant populations which are in the process of "enriching" our nations. I'm not naive, I have a very good grip on what kinds of immigrants there are. I don't sit at home and watch happy ending multi culti programmes. I know what's at stake, but I'm not a hardliner.

[Jamt]

Currently, no. Finland has very few immigrants and most are Europeans.


Of course it is. But an African adopted to Finland brought up with Finnish values is a much better choice than a Russian nationalist straight out of Novosibirsk. I base this on personal experience.



What the fuck's in a name??
Mentally no. Racially clearly.

Not as mind boggling as I find American nationalists to be (KKK, Michigan militia etc ...) I'm no racist, no. I'm a realist.
She was brought up in Finland the Finnish way. I may not share her values ( I don't know what they are) but I respect her. After all, she's half Finnish. In my world that's twice as good as not Finnish at all.

I'm not naive, I have a very good grip on what kinds of immigrants there are. I don't sit at home and watch happy ending multi culti programmes. I know what's at stake, but I'm not a hardliner.

You are not awake to what is coming. Do you realy think globalisation will pass you by? Fucking Finn.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, Motörhead, we'll talk again when your Muslims and Africans are a bit settled in Finland. Welcome to the world of globalisation with benefits for a few and misery for the many.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Well, Motörhead, we'll talk again when your Muslims and Africans are a bit settled in Finland. Welcome to the world of globalisation with benefits for a few and misery for the many.

I think you guys misinterpret my stand. I'm not that liberal.

[Sword of the Morning]

She was brought up in Finland the Finnish way. I may not share her values ( I don't know what they are) but I respect her. After all, she's half Finnish. In my world that's twice as good as not Finnish at all.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with most of what you've said there leaving aside the above.

For me, it's very simple: Integration = Death. Death of the indigenous population, that is, whether they be Finns or anyone else in the world. I'd much prefer to house a hostile, non-integrationist minority group within my nation's borders than a racially foreign one that by and large acclimates to mainstream culture.

Which brings me to my next point:


Finland is not America and we will never go that direction in massive ethnic blending.

Herein lies the difference, I believe, between your worldview and what seems to be the prevailing one on this board.

I do understand Finns to be more conservative-minded and possessed of a better sense of ethnic identity than, for example, their Scandinavian neighbors--and more power to them. Still, I'm not sure what makes you think that Finns by and large will be immune to the twin diseases of miscegenation and globalization once your non-European population starts to grow and the media turns the propaganda machine onto overdrive.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I'd much prefer to house a hostile, non-integrationist minority group within my nation's borders than a racially foreign one that by and large acclimates to mainstream culture. We have such a group, the Gypsies. Not a pain in the ass of same magnitude as the one's in Balkans, though. As soon as the Gypsies are mixed with or integrated with Finns they cease to be a problem. I prefer less problems before fear of racial impurity (bear in mind that it's a small group, only around 20 000).


Herein lies the difference, I believe, between your worldview and what seems to be the prevailing one on this board.

Yes, there's a distance between us. It's an American vs. European thing.


Still, I'm not sure what makes you think that Finns by and large will be immune to the twin diseases of miscegenation and globalization once your non-European population starts to grow and the media turns the propaganda machine onto overdrive.
I still fail to see where in my posts I have led you to believe that I think the way you described?

[Troll's Puzzle]

Why not? Why is there unemployment?

Economical growth is linked to the availability of innovations and service providers, innovations and service are linked to ideas, ideas are linked to an open mind and a certain flow of people, be it travel or migration.


this is no reason in itself for 'must have population growth' via immigration (or any other means), though.
again, the only reason I can think someone can justifiably claim we 'must' have immigration is to prop up the ponzi economy.
at the most you could target some 'talents' from abroad and entice them to immigrate, which isn't a bad policy, but it's not needed since ideas have no borders.
Asian countries didn't need it when they imported ideas & innovations (& often brought over people to help them develop them - temporarily) which helped them to go from 3rd-world agricultural ex-slave colonies (which is what south korea basically was under imperial japan) into wealthy countries, destroying entire mature industries in europe in the process.


There is a higher unemplyment in Finlands backwaters than in the cities, why?

usually cities grew because some industry grew or was built there, so, it's not suprising they might have lower unemployment as there.
Not always, eg. if (when...) the business goes bust then it ends up even worse than the 'backwaters', eg. Detroit. Actually 'detrotification' (in all aspects) could be a good term for process going on in the UK (once the 'workshop of the world').

[Motörhead Remember Me]

this is no reason in itself for 'must have population growth' via immigration (or any other means)though.

Yes, there is. Our population is getting old fast and when they leave the working age who are going to pick up their tools? A stagnated population will not enhance economical growth or at least allow the economy to be stable.*)

again, the only reason I can think someone can justifiably claim we 'must' have immigration is to prop up the ponzi economy.
I'll give another important reason. I need a young pretty Filipino nurse to take care of me when I'm old. Our young ones will not take those jobs, they will be to busy developing Play Station games and beachbumming...


at the most you could target some 'talents' from abroad and entice them to immigrate, which isn't a bad policy, but it's not needed since ideas have no borders.
Actually ideas do have to cross mental borders and in Finland we have our own "We have not tried it here (it's a foreign system) so we don't think it can work" or " Why should we need that?" mentality also.


Asian countries didn't need it when they imported ideas & innovations (& often brought over people to help them develop them - temporarily) which helped them to go from 3rd-world agricultural ex-slave colonies (which is what south korea basically was under imperial japan) into wealthy countries, destroying entire mature industries in europe in the process.
See how much smarter Asians are! And they are there waiting for the jobs when our factories are closing.
See*)


usually cities grew because some industry grew or was built there, so, it's not suprising they might have lower unemployment as there.
Not always, eg. if (when...) the business goes bust then it ends up even worse than the 'backwaters', eg. Detroit. Actually 'detrotification' (in all aspects) could be a good term for process going on in the UK (once the 'workshop of the world').
When the industry leaves new businesses must replace them. Detroitification is all about not changing the mindset quickly enough from being a steel/car industrial town to a hightech, service, tourist, food industry, a town of research and development e.t.c. Ideas didn't just fly there ...

[Sword of the Morning]

We have such a group, the Gypsies. Not a pain in the ass of same magnitude as the one's in Balkans, though. As soon as the Gypsies are mixed with or integrated with Finns they cease to be a problem. I prefer less problems before fear of racial impurity (bear in mind that it's a small group, only around 20 000).

Sure, that makes sense; but only in the context of, as you say, small-scale integration. When hundreds of thousands Africans and Arabs take up residence in Finland--and, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no reason to believe that such an eventuality isn't on the horizon--then integration will mean the death of your people, in every conceivable way.


Yes, there's a distance between us. It's an American vs. European thing.

I actually agree to an extent, but most Europeans in this thread also seem to recoil at the idea of absorbing a racially foreign group into their population.


I still fail to see where in my posts I have led you to believe that I think the way you described?

Well, at this moment in time Finland is one of the European countries damaged the least by immigration, and your attitude seems to suggest that this will always be the case. In contrast, from my perspective, it seems as though it's only a matter of time before Finland (and every other European and European-derived nation) looks like France or even the USA.

[Aino]

Sure, that makes sense; but only in the context of, as you say, small-scale integration. When hundreds of thousands Africans and Arabs take up residence in Finland--and, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no reason to believe that such an eventuality isn't on the horizon--then integration will mean the death of your people, in every conceivable way.

Why do you believe that hundreds of thousands of Africans and Arabs would turn up in Finland and why would they be granted a residence permit?

[Eldritch]

:confused:

What I am getting at is that if we are going to have a lot of immigrants, they are going to have to be people who not only can fend for themselves, they are going to have to come up with the very means of fending for themselves. They can't all get jobs as interpreters, multicultural consultants and awareness coordinators.


...

Still, I'm not sure what makes you think that Finns by and large will be immune to the twin diseases of miscegenation and globalization once your non-European population starts to grow and the media turns the propaganda machine onto overdrive.

This is the stage our multicultural project is at now: on one hand it's beginning to feed itself, because more and more people make a living off it, and therefore support expanding the system, and on the other more and more people are beginning to realise there's a problem, so the media indoctrination and propaganda is shifting into higher gears.


Why do you believe that hundreds of thousands of Africans and Arabs would turn up in Finland and why would they be granted a residence permit?

The EU wants to dump them on us (http://www.statewatch.org/news/2010/nov/eu-com-final-report-relocation-of-refugees.pdf). Pray that it collapses before they manage to ram that one through.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

What I am getting at is that if we are going to have a lot of immigrants, they are going to have to be people who not only can fend for themselves, they are going to have to come up with the very means of fending for themselves. They can't all get jobs as interpreters, multicultural consultants and awareness coordinators.
I agree to 100%.


The EU wants to dump them on us (http://www.statewatch.org/news/2010/nov/eu-com-final-report-relocation-of-refugees.pdf). Pray that it collapses before they manage to ram that one through. Well, that's why radical, moderate AND liberal Finns seems to be joining forces to vote against this and other mad EU projects. Like I said during the Swedish elections, it's a good idea to vote for SD now as a protest against current policies but in the long run we need to find a better alternative than SD (and Persut).

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I actually agree to an extent, but most Europeans in this thread also seem to recoil at the idea of absorbing a racially foreign group into their population.



I have friends who have Turkish, Mexican and Chinese wives. I can't tell their children they are racially unpure or filthy humans. Specially when I'm balled and ugly myself. What kind of a man would I be?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Why do you believe that hundreds of thousands of Africans and Arabs would turn up in Finland and why would they be granted a residence permit?

RoPs need new players?

[Don]

"Immigrants account for half of Finland’s population growth"


It is time for our people to call the things by their name.

"Invaders account for half of Finland’s population growth"


invade
1. To enter by force in order to conquer or pillage.
2. To encroach or intrude on; violate.
3. To overrun as if by invading; infest.
4. To enter and permeate, especially harmfully.



Don't underestimate the power of the words.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Matritensis i s a n i n v a d e r, HELP!

[The Lawspeaker]

Matritensis i s a n i n v a d e r, HELP!
Perkele. Just to hear a Finn utter the word "help" in one sentence with the word "invader"- what has the world come too....
Grow a pair, man. Give him the same treatment that your grandfather gave the Russki's :wink

[Sword of the Morning]

I have friends who have Turkish, Mexican and Chinese wives. I can't tell their children they are racially unpure or filthy humans. Specially when I'm balled and ugly myself. What kind of a man would I be?

Bottom line: If you wish the Finns to continue to exist as an ethnic group, then the aforementioned cannot continue, or it must be on so small a scale as to be utterly insignificant.

If you personally (a man who post on a preservationist board, no less) include 3+ friends with racially foreign wives, then perhaps the immigration problem in Finland isn't as benign as you think it is. Obviously I'm in no position to judge that, but that seems rather high to me given the circumstances.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

If you wish the Finns to continue to exist as an ethnic group, then the aforementioned cannot continue, or it must be on so small a scale as to be utterly insignificant.
Wasn't that exactly what I said?

If you personally (a man who post on a preservationist board, no less) include 3+ friends with racially foreign wives, then perhaps the immigration problem in Finland isn't as benign as you think it is. Obviously I'm in no position to judge that, but that seems rather high to me given the circumstances. I have an even more disturbing fact to disclose, I have racially foreign friends too. But like you said, you're not in the position to judge me or my friends.
Preservationism for me is not an obsession about who is most racially pure. I'm in it for our Nordic values and our Nordic/Finnish ethnogenesis, not for some weird racial motives. While being so concerned about you race check your background, SotM, you might find more mixing over ethnical borders which all have resulted in you being you.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Perkele. Just to hear a Finn utter the word "help" in one sentence with the word "invader"- what has the world come too....
Grow a pair, man. Give him the same treatment that your grandfather gave the Russki's :wink


It was the feminine side in me faking helplessness.

[Sword of the Morning]

Wasn't that exactly what I said?
I have an even more disturbing fact to disclose, I have racially foreign friends too. But like you said, you're not in the position to judge me or my friends.
Preservationism for me is not an obsession about who is most racially pure. I'm in it for our Nordic values and our Nordic/Finnish ethnogenesis, not for some weird racial motives. While being so concerned about you race check your background, SotM, you might find more mixing over ethnical borders which all have resulted in you being you.

I wasn't judging anyone, merely attempting to point out that such a level of mixing does not constitute a statistically insignificant number.

I'm just wondering where the disconnect here is. We both agree that there's a level of admixture beyond which the Finns will cease to be Finns (where precisely that level happens to be is immaterial to this discussion IMO). Maybe I'm a pessimist or I don't fully grasp the situation in NE Europe, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Finnish government will eventually import foreigners well past the tipping point, and encourage them to "integrate" on top of it all.

I mean, the levels of non-Europeans in many Western European countries are enough to irrevocably alter the population over a period of gradual mixture, especially in light of the fact that more immigration is sure to come. I'm just curious as to the source of your confidence that Finland will be exempt from such a fate.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I wasn't judging anyone, merely attempting to point out that such a level of mixing does not constitute a statistically insignificant number.
If you refer to the fact that I know three people who has foreign wives (good thing I haven't mentioned all the women I know with foreign spouses yet) and call that statistically significant maybe you haven't considered just how many people I know and where I know them from. I can assure you that it's likely to be statistically far below the European average.


I'm just wondering where the disconnect here is. Beats me as well.

Maybe I'm a pessimist or I don't fully grasp the situation in NE Europe Probably a combination of both? BTW, we Finns call this part simply Northern Europe.

but there's no doubt in my mind that the Finnish government will eventually import foreigners well past the tipping point, and encourage them to "integrate" on top of it all. Finland has traditionally been the strictest of in terms of admitting foreigners and still is. For the pursuit of that policy we have not needed any radical parties, just a geographically peripheral position and good old fashioned home grown xenophobia. Finns have, based on historical events, understood that the world doesn't give a fuck about us so we have to manage by ourselves. What is now happening is the naive will from current politicians to transform Finland into an EU nation like the rest and that is something many Finns have an issue with. We don't want our taxmoney to be used to pay for Irish, Greek and Portugese economical fuck ups and we don't want scavengers to arrive here en masse.
I mean, the levels of non-Europeans in many Western European countries are enough to irrevocably alter the population over a period of gradual mixture, especially in light of the fact that more immigration is sure to come. Yep.

I'm just curious as to the source of your confidence that Finland will be exempt from such a fate. Finland is full of people with more conservative views than I have. I'm a fucking communist in comparison with my relatives who are armed and dangerous in the wilderness ready to shoot any darkskinned that would even look at their way.:wink

[Sword of the Morning]

I'm just wondering where the disconnect here is.


maybe you haven't considered just how many people I know and where I know them from. I can assure you that it's likely to be statistically far below the European average.

There we have it!

For some reason, I took it to mean that three of your close friends (i.e., the type that most people only have a dozen or so of) were marrying out. I know that's not what you said, and in retrospect I'm not sure what gave me that idea.


Finland has traditionally been the strictest of in terms of admitting foreigners and still is. For the pursuit of that policy we have not needed any radical parties, just a geographically peripheral position and good old fashioned home grown xenophobia. Finns have, based on historical events, understood that the world doesn't give a fuck about us so we have to manage by ourselves. What is now happening is the naive will from current politicians to transform Finland into an EU nation like the rest and that is something many Finns have an issue with. We don't want our taxmoney to be used to pay for Irish, Greek and Portugese economical fuck ups and we don't want scavengers to arrive here en masse. Yep.

Finland is full of people with more conservative views than I have. I'm a fucking communist in comparison with my relatives who are armed and dangerous in the wilderness ready to shoot any darkskinned that would even look at their way.:wink

That's honestly wonderful to hear. :thumbs up

Understand that I meant no offense to your or your friends; I simply wish for the sustained existence of the European people, on both a cultural and racial level.

[Matritensis]

Matritensis i s a n i n v a d e r, HELP!


I'll take Finland one of these days.Then I'll think about it,I'll return it,and I'll move to Marbella with some other Finns! :cool:

[Moonbird]

I basically don't care if people mate with Pygmies or Maputo Indians, what I care more about is the values people have.
Finland is not America and we will never go that direction in massive ethnic blending. A few thousand foreigners is not a threat racially, a few hundred thousand foreigners will be a threat culturally.
Go to some inbred region in Finland (Salla i.e.) and have a look around and listen to people talk, I'm sure you'd rethink if that other extreme is a much better choice.

Well, even if you personally don't care about what people look like and could mate with a Pygmy, your future descendents might not be as flippant to their own looks as you are. ;)

Anyway, foreigners represent foreign values, and they are bound to have an impact on Finnish society. They are not numerically that many right now but they are constantly growing e.g. with the family reunification program. I think now is a good time to act. It's easier to stop them before they come into the country than after.

You are right that people in inbred, isolated regions usually aren't the sharpest crayons in the box, but there's a middle way to go here, you don't have to choose between two extremes.


Why not? Why is there unemployment?

Economical growth is linked to the availability of innovations and service providers, innovations and service are linked to ideas, ideas are linked to an open mind and a certain flow of people, be it travel or migration.
There is a higher unemplyment in Finlands backwaters than in the cities, why?

I'm not a politician so I won't go into the reasons of unemployment. I just don't see any reasons to aim for a population growth today with the help of immigrants as long as many Finnish citizens themselves are being unemployed. Many of them young people who never have had a chance to enter the labor market.

As for ideas and innovations, I can't say that I see much of that in today's immigrants.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Well, even if you personally don't care about what people look like and could mate with a Pygmy, your future descendents might not be as flippant to their own looks as you are. ;) Pygmogermanic would be a new subrace:D

Anyway, foreigners represent foreign values, and they are bound to have an impact on Finnish society. They are not numerically that many right now but they are constantly growing e.g. with the family reunification program. I think now is a good time to act. It's easier to stop them before they come into the country than after. I agree. But we can't and shouldn't close the borders entirely. We must be more selective and avoid rushing.


I'm not a politician so I won't go into the reasons of unemployment. I just don't see any reasons to aim for a population growth today with the help of immigrants as long as many Finnish citizens themselves are being unemployed. I guess you are not going to vote for Stora Flykting Partiet, then?


As for ideas and innovations, I can't say that I see much of that in today's immigrants.
Not in Somalis, Iraqis and Afghanis, no.

[Moonbird]

I guess you are not going to vote for Stora Flykting Partiet, then?


Who I vote for is a secret.:p