Do Baltids come from Nordids?

[jm2000]

I mean, are Baltids direct descendants of Nordids? I guess, yes, they are.

[EdwardS]

Baltid it's CM-type

[NSXD60]

Nah, they cum from a Mong's tiny schmeckle.

[Veslan]

Yes. It's a cross between Nordic and Lappid.


Baltid it's CM-type
If that was the case they would be large-headed and exclusively euryprosopic and at least mesorrhine. They are not.

What's more phenotypical inheritance testing (which anthropologists who claimed it's a Reduced CM type had never done) proved two "Baltid" individuals can have a fully Nordic child because of re-emergence.

[Columella]

“baltic” and “Nordic” are jus two variants of the same general type (north-north Eastern European”

Then some are more represented than others according to area. The influence of ancient populations and migrations role, certainly plays a role in but we shouldn’t Consider it the only one nor I would go so back to CM times.

of course there is a gradient in which Nordic finds its peak in Scandinavia (small, wealthy populated with a little history of immigration at least tontoday) while Baltic is stronger in Eastern Europe (with a completely different social-economical history.

[The Blade]

The vast majority of those light Central/Eastern European brachycephals have a hybrid Northern European-Uralic Mongoloid origin.

[michal3141]

The vast majority of those light Central/Eastern European brachycephals have a hybrid Northern European-Uralic Mongoloid origin.

Not really. Baltids are related to EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherers). Their quasi-mongoloid features are due to ANE (Ancient North Eurasians) but not Uralics. If they were related to Uralics instead, they would be darker in hair and complexion than Nordics but we all know this is not true (expect for Alpinid or Pontid admixed impure Baltids). Pure Baltids are natives to the Eastern Europe and are the whitest race on the planet.

[Harkonnen]

Europ verry high IQ

[The Blade]

Not really. Baltids are related to EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherers). Their quasi-mongoloid features are due to ANE (Ancient North Eurasians) but not Uralics. If they were related to Uralics instead, they would be darker in hair and complexion than Nordics but we all know this is not true (expect for Alpinid or Pontid admixed impure Baltids). Pure Baltids are natives to the Eastern Europe and are the whitest race on the planet.
Lol, no.
East Baltids, Neo-Danubians, etc. are Uralic Mongoloid admixed.
Many Baltoids of Central Europe show such influences, too.
Northeastern Europeans (Baltic area, many regions of Russia, Finland, to some extent Ukraine and Belarus) have a high percentage of Uralic haplogroup N1c1. A lot of people in those regions display Mongoloid traits like flat nose, flat face, epicanthus, etc.
They are not exclusively light-eyed/light-haired either.
Don't confuse lighter and whiter. East Baltids and Neo-Danubians are lighter than Mediterranid types of Southern Europe in terms of hair/eye colour due to Northern European admixture but Mediterranids are perfectly Europoid in terms of facial features unlike East Baltids/Neo-Danubians.

[michal3141]

Lol, no.
East Baltids, Neo-Danubians, etc. are Uralic Mongoloid admixed.
Many Baltoids of Central Europe show such influences, too.
Northeastern Europeans (Baltic area, many regions of Russia, Finland, to some extent Ukraine and Belarus) have a high percentage of Uralic haplogroup N1c1. A lot of people in those regions display Mongoloid traits like flat nose, flat face, epicanthus, etc.
They are not exclusively light-eyed/light-haired either.
Don't confuse lighter and whiter. East Baltids and Neo-Danubians are lighter than Mediterranid types of Southern Europe in terms of hair/eye colour due to Northern European admixture but Mediterranids are perfectly Europoid in terms of facial features unlike East Baltids/Neo-Danubians.

East Asian admixture map:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1076gkx.jpg

Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians) don't have this East Asian/Uralic admixture. I am talking about proper Baltids and not Uralic influenced so-called East Baltids. In fact proper Baltids are more pure than more Mediterranean/neolithic influenced Nordics.

[Veslan]

East Asian admixture map:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1076gkx.jpg
Those "admixture" groups are often very vague and inaccurate. Dodecad counts Finno-Ugrian admixture as "Steppe", this is why they seem to be less East Asian influenced than they are in reality.

Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians) don't have this East Asian/Uralic admixture. I am talking about proper Baltids and not Uralic influenced so-called East Baltids. In fact proper Baltids are more pure than more Mediterranean/neolithic influenced Nordics.
The problem with "proper Baltids" is that they don't exist... It's a made-up internet phenotype that no real anthropologist had ever described, basically a result of mixing a few different theories and classifications with eachother. This one tried to separate von Eickstedt's "East Baltic" (allegedly brachycephalized Cro-Magnon type) with what the most of authors understand under the term "East Baltic" (a Nordic-Lappoid mixed phenotype).

So, what are "proper Baltids" in reality? Well... Subnordids, a Nordic type brachychephalized by the Eastern Alpine type. Inheritance tests confirm it, as the "Baltids proper" tend to have purely Nordic children through the recombination of Nordic traits.

[Columella]

Those "admixture" groups are often very vague and inaccurate. Dodecad counts Finno-Ugrian admixture as "Steppe", this is why they seem to be less East Asian influenced than they are in reality.

The problem with "proper Baltids" is that they don't exist... It's a made-up internet phenotype that no real anthropologist had ever described, basically a result of mixing a few different theories and classifications with eachother. This one tried to separate von Eickstedt's "East Baltic" (allegedly brachycephalized Cro-Magnon type) with what the most of authors understand under the term "East Baltic" (a Nordic-Lappoid mixed phenotype).

So, what are "proper Baltids" in reality? Well... Subnordids, a Nordic type brachychephalized by the Eastern Alpine type. Inheritance tests confirm it, as the "Baltids proper" tend to have purely Nordic children through the recombination of Nordic traits.

Baltic is a bit like Berberid. It doesn’t stand on clear grounds but we have an idea of the look (Slavic in the first case, North African in the second)
From the authors you mentioned however we could isolate easily a series of common recognisable features and its usually on those we can base the concept of “Baltic”

“baltic/East baltic” are usually negatively perceived (Guenther) as it functioned in a anti-Slavic , anti- soviet key. (Especially if associated to Mongolozatikn)

[michal3141]

Those "admixture" groups are often very vague and inaccurate. Dodecad counts Finno-Ugrian admixture as "Steppe", this is why they seem to be less East Asian influenced than they are in reality.

The problem with "proper Baltids" is that they don't exist... It's a made-up internet phenotype that no real anthropologist had ever described, basically a result of mixing a few different theories and classifications with eachother. This one tried to separate von Eickstedt's "East Baltic" (allegedly brachycephalized Cro-Magnon type) with what the most of authors understand under the term "East Baltic" (a Nordic-Lappoid mixed phenotype).

So, what are "proper Baltids" in reality? Well... Subnordids, a Nordic type brachychephalized by the Eastern Alpine type. Inheritance tests confirm it, as the "Baltids proper" tend to have purely Nordic children through the recombination of Nordic traits.

And what is the young guy in the middle if not proper Baltid? Subnordid, Nordid, Alpinid?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=77571&d=1530739565

Even Odin described him simply as "Baltid" in https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?250850-Classify-Polish-uni-computer-science-students-who-won-national-competitive-programming-contest

Proper Baltids of course exist in Lithuania and Latvia but also Poland, Belarus, Russia etc.

[Harkonnen]

Baltids are bleached alpinids, they have nothing to do with original Mesolithic Europeans, who were racially mongoloid.

[Harkonnen]

We establish that no cranial data, whether the face and the neurocranium are analysed
together or separately, allow us to recover geographical relationships between the modern populations in our sample. Nevertheless,
clusters that have been recovered with the help of the whole cranium data correspond well with the expected generic relationships
between the sampled modern groups. As a result, we choose to analyse the shape of the complete cranium, where such is available,
in fossil individuals as well. Our results highlight a high level of variation within Mesolithic and within Neolithic populations of
the Eastern Europe and Siberia as compared with the pooled sample of the modern humans from different geographical locations
worldwide. However, a certain structure among the analysed groups can still be revealed. The results suggest that Mesolithic groups
from the Dnieper region have close morphological affinities with each other, while Yushny Oleni Ostrov have a large overlap with
modern humans in general and with some of the mongoloid groups in particular. Neolithic groups are, on the whole, closer to mod-
ern populations than to the Mesolithic sample. At the same time, Siberian individuals show a complex pattern of morphological
relationships which may be revealing of their genetic identity.


EHG man, racial type that roamed Baltic shores in the mesolithic:

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/YuzhnyiOleniiOstrov-Mongoloid.jpg

https://s8.postimg.cc/5ueiw190l/troe021.jpg

[I]FIG. 1 (3 views). A Magyar from Budapest; a man of moderately tall stature, hyperbrachycephaly, and moderately great head size; with a large face, low orbits, a wide, interorbital distance, and a median eyefold. These characters, in combination with laterally prominent malars and a wide, heavy mandible, mark this individual as a Ladogan prototype. He represents a reëmergence of a racial element living in the eastern European woodlands in early post-glacial times; this type is one of the general group of Palaeolithic survivors, in this case largely unreduced. As with the related Palaeolithic survivors of northwestern Europe, its tendency to blondism must be considered integral, and not the result of Nordic admixture.

https://s8.postimg.cc/c9djsg7xx/troe022.jpg

FIG. 2 (3 views, Institute of Peoples of the North). An Ostiak (Khanty) woman from Siberia. The Ladogan facial features are usually better exemplified in women than in men. The Ostiak woman shown above is as good a Ladogan prototype as the Magyar shown above. Note the blond hair, light eyes, the great interorbital distance, the broad, low-bridged nose with elevated snub tip, and the wide malars.


LADOGAN = EAST CROMAGNID (EHG)

[Veslan]

EHG man, racial type that roamed Baltic shores in the mesolithic:

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/YuzhnyiOleniiOstrov-Mongoloid.jpg

https://s8.postimg.cc/5ueiw190l/troe021.jpg

[I]FIG. 1 (3 views). A Magyar from Budapest; a man of moderately tall stature, hyperbrachycephaly, and moderately great head size; with a large face, low orbits, a wide, interorbital distance, and a median eyefold. These characters, in combination with laterally prominent malars and a wide, heavy mandible, mark this individual as a Ladogan prototype. He represents a reëmergence of a racial element living in the eastern European woodlands in early post-glacial times; this type is one of the general group of Palaeolithic survivors, in this case largely unreduced. As with the related Palaeolithic survivors of northwestern Europe, its tendency to blondism must be considered integral, and not the result of Nordic admixture.

https://s8.postimg.cc/c9djsg7xx/troe022.jpg

FIG. 2 (3 views, Institute of Peoples of the North). An Ostiak (Khanty) woman from Siberia. The Ladogan facial features are usually better exemplified in women than in men. The Ostiak woman shown above is as good a Ladogan prototype as the Magyar shown above. Note the blond hair, light eyes, the great interorbital distance, the broad, low-bridged nose with elevated snub tip, and the wide malars.


LADOGAN = EAST CROMAGNID (EHG)

Finnic clown strikes again :picard2:

Since when Yuzhni Olenii Ostrov looks like even the 2% of the actual Hunther Gatherers from the area? Also he didn't even have a proper R1a1a haplogroup, but some irrelevant branch that died out.

The actual race of the Mesolithic Hunther-Gatherers from Russia:
https://i.imgur.com/V0Nyt1Q.png
https://i.imgur.com/P1VXPFd.png
https://i.imgur.com/6aH6pFt.png
https://i.imgur.com/BJke72R.png
https://i.imgur.com/mcyboBs.png
https://i.imgur.com/3l0G7i4.png
https://i.imgur.com/KGPlDVX.png
https://i.imgur.com/F9Qt1Bx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/h7iVUAV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pwyHOzC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PHTNrfp.png

[Harkonnen]

The less mongoloid looking skulls have more WHG and less ANE, so it makes sense they look a little less mongoloid, but they are still racially mongoloid and are phenotypically most similar to Karelians, and not to any kind of Baltid population

European Mesolithic groups were characterized by
large dimensions of the braincase and especially by its
conspicuous height. The face was wide and relatively
low and a flattened upper facial profile co-occurred with
a sharp midfacial profile and sharply protruding nasal
bones (Alekseyeva, 1997). In Alekseyeva’s words, this
unusual trait combination, which was more than once
revealed by multivariate statistics, was widely distributed
and was typical of Mesolithic Caucasoids of the forest
and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe as evidenced
by groups such as Zvejnieki, Popovo, Southern Oleniy
(Reindeer) Island, and Vasilievka I and III. In her words,
there is no doubt that robustness and upper facial flatness
were inherited from earlier Caucasoid populations of
Eastern Europe (Ibid.: 26). In the joint monograph
integrating the anthropological studies of the Eastern
Slavs, Alekseyeva formulated her conclusions regarding
the origin of this trait combination: “Judging by the
concentration of these unusual features in Scandinavia,
the Baltic and the Onega area, people displaying them
had migrated to Eastern Europe from the northwest and
were possibly associated with the Mesolithic cultures of
the circum-Baltic region. Revisiting the long-standing
issue of admixture versus evolutionary conservatism in
the Mesolithic population of Eastern Europe in the light
of new data, we must reject the admixture hypothesis.
The location of this peculiar type and its expansion from
the west to the east suggest that it should be regarded
as an independent ancient type which originated in
northwestern Europe” (Alekseyeva, 1999: 254–255). In
the Neolithic, biological continuity with the Mesolithic
population was preserved but the diversity increased.
Importantly, according to Alekseyeva (Ibid.: 255), the
population which in the Mesolithic had been quite
Caucasoid despite the unusual combination of the two
facial profiles (flattened in the upper part and sharp in
the middle part; one might add that the face was very
broad and the braincase was very high) began to assume
a somewhat “Mongoloid” appearance.
After the Neolithic, groups marked by the trait
combination noted by Alekseyeva and others seem to
have disappeared from Eastern Europe. This may have
been partly due to the scarcity of cranial remains from
the Bronze Age, Early Iron Age, and medieval burials
in the Eastern Baltic area and to the complete absence
of such remains from Karelia. However, none of the
large series of 11th–17th-century crania from Leningrad
Oblast, Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia too, reveal the
combination described above. By contrast, several large
18th–19th-century Karelian cranial samples very clearly
exhibit precisely this combination, which Alekseyeva
demonstrated to be peculiar to the Circum-Baltic region
in the Mesolithic. The only noteworthy difference is a
larger cranial index and a somewhat less robust braincase
in the late groups. These changes are readily explainable
by the two diachronic tendencies – brachycephalization
and gracilization.

[frdfgcg]

Baltids are bleached alpinids, they have nothing to do with original Mesolithic Europeans, who were racially mongoloid.

Dude Wtf?!
Baltids are 100% Mongolids.
They have nothing to do with Alpinids.
Typical Alpinid.
http://www.civishir.hu/upload/image/hirkepek/hiressegek/hazai/emma1.jpg

Typical Baltid.
http://static.fashionbank.ru/photo/2009/10/30386/thumb_6459851.jpg

You must stop talking nonsense here.
Baltids are true Mongolids unlike Alpinids.

[frdfgcg]

Alpinids are just reduced Gypsies.

[Veslan]

Baltic is a bit like Berberid. It doesn’t stand on clear grounds but we have an idea of the look (Slavic in the first case, North African in the second)
From the authors you mentioned however we could isolate easily a series of common recognisable features and its usually on those we can base the concept of “Baltic”

“baltic/East baltic” are usually negatively perceived (Guenther) as it functioned in a anti-Slavic , anti- soviet key. (Especially if associated to Mongolozatikn)

East Baltic race does exist, but it's territorial range had been overestimated throughout history because of associating the type with the Slavs instead of Finns and Balts.
"Baltids" have exactly same cranial features as Subnordids, usually have the same body type (pyknomorphic), as well as pigmentation. Except the ones that have a Finnic influence and can be classified as East Baltic. The "third Baltid" is not needed.

It's definition as a Cro-Magnon descended type is also extremely wrong and comes from mixing various anthropological theories with eachother and trying to paste them.

Let's look at SNPA's "Baltid" definition:

"Altered northeastern European Cro-Magnoid type (ancestrally related to the Dalo-Falid and Brünn types of the northwest), reduced, brachycephalized and borealized through a selective process of "balticization" (not wholly dissimilar to alpinization). The ancestral type ("East-Cro-Magnid") is more obviously reflected in the less altered West-Baltid end-type, which we have here subsumed under the general Baltid definition, together with the more "balticized" segment. "

Well, good that they admitted that the alleged "Balticization" is similiar to Alpinization. However, the reason why it is not a Cro-Magnoid type is because if that was a case Baltids would be exclusively euryprosopic and at least mesorrhine, while they admitted that:

"The face is moderately high, and the facial index is mesoprosopic"

Mesoprosopy and moderately high faces doesn't happen in the pure Cro-Magnon types (like Faelid) and indicates an influence of a more gracile race (in this case Nordic).

"The nose is moderately leptorrhine, and the root is moderately high to high, and of medium width. The nasal profile is usually straight, with a strong tendency towards concavity. "

This also implies that it is not a pure CM type... because such types don't have straight noses, moderately high noses.

Also it's funny that they used Hindenburg as an example of a "Baltid" type:
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/Paul_von_Hindenburg.jpg
An actual anthropologist, Carleton S. Coon, classified him in the East Baltic cathegory. I think he knew a bit better. Also his eyes type imply a Finnic admixture.

Glad that the "Baltid" type was at least removed from the humanphenotypes.

[Harkonnen]

East Baltic race does exist, but it's territorial range had been overestimated throughout history because of associating the type with the Slavs instead of Finns and Balts.
"Baltids" have exactly same cranial features as Subnordids, usually have the same body type (pyknomorphic), as well as pigmentation. Except the ones that have a Finnic influence and can be classified as East Baltic. The "third Baltid" is not needed.

It's definition as a Cro-Magnon descended type is also extremely wrong and comes from mixing various anthropological theories with eachother and trying to paste them.

Let's look at SNPA's "Baltid" definition:

"Altered northeastern European Cro-Magnoid type (ancestrally related to the Dalo-Falid and Brünn types of the northwest), reduced, brachycephalized and borealized through a selective process of "balticization" (not wholly dissimilar to alpinization). The ancestral type ("East-Cro-Magnid") is more obviously reflected in the less altered West-Baltid end-type, which we have here subsumed under the general Baltid definition, together with the more "balticized" segment. "

Well, good that they admitted that the alleged "Balticization" is similiar to Alpinization. However, the reason why it is not a Cro-Magnoid type is because if that was a case Baltids would be exclusively euryprosopic and at least mesorrhine, while they admitted that:

"The face is moderately high, and the facial index is mesoprosopic"

Mesoprosopy and moderately high faces doesn't happen in the pure Cro-Magnon types (like Faelid) and indicates an influence of a more gracile race (in this case Nordic).

"The nose is moderately leptorrhine, and the root is moderately high to high, and of medium width. The nasal profile is usually straight, with a strong tendency towards concavity. "

This also implies that it is not a pure CM type... because such types don't have straight noses, moderately high noses.

Also it's funny that they used Hindenburg as an example of a "Baltid" type:
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/Paul_von_Hindenburg.jpg
An actual anthropologist, Carleton S. Coon, classified him in the East Baltic cathegory. I think he knew a bit better. Also his eyes type imply a Finnic admixture.

Glad that the "Baltid" type was at least removed from the humanphenotypes.

Indeed, according to Coon only Finns and Balts were East Baltic. Slavs were Neodanubians.

[Veslan]

And what is the young guy in the middle if not proper Baltid? Subnordid, Nordid, Alpinid?
East Baltic.

[Harkonnen]

http://i66.tinypic.com/ojkq6f.jpg

This is Coon's racial map. According to Coon there are more East Baltic types in Sweden than in Slavonia. He actually paints East Finland as Neodanubian land, which is a big mistake. Neodanubian is a Slavic type and does not exist in Finland.

[Veslan]

Indeed, according to Coon only Finns and Balts were East Baltic. Slavs were Neodanubians.

Neo-Danubian is close, although Coon attributed it's brachycephaliaztion to Ladogan instead of Alpine for no reason.

His another mistake is misunderstanding Czekanowski's Pre-Slavic type, which has nothing to do with neither Nordic, nor Mediterrenean, but Coon understood it as a Danubian equivalent.

[Harkonnen]

Neo-Danubian is close, although Coon attributed it's brachycephaliaztion to Ladogan instead of Alpine for no reason.

His another mistake is misunderstanding Czekanowski's Pre-Slavic type, which has nothing to do with neither Nordic, nor Mediterrenean, but Coon understood it as a Danubian equivalent.

Coon's East Baltic plates morphed:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2n9vm77.jpg

Coon's Neodanubian plates morphed:

http://i63.tinypic.com/wthrgn.jpg

You can see the difference in race.

[Harkonnen]

Neo-Danubian is close, although Coon attributed it's brachycephaliaztion to Ladogan instead of Alpine for no reason.

His another mistake is misunderstanding Czekanowski's Pre-Slavic type, which has nothing to do with neither Nordic, nor Mediterrenean, but Coon understood it as a Danubian equivalent.

Are you saying Neodanubians have no Indoeuropean admixture?