Speculations on Classical Age Greek DNA

[kleenex]

We may nor may not ever discover Classical era Greek dna but if we did how would they compare to Bronze age Greeks and/or modern Greeks? Would there be increased IE dna thus plotting them closer to modern mainland Greeks or would the later Slavic incursions of the 6th c. separate modern mainland Greeks from Classical Greeks. Would modern Greek Islanders be autosmally closer to Classical Greeks than mainland Greeks. Is this topic even worth discussing? I'm curious as to other's opinions on this topic. Please discuss. Thanks.

[Sikeliot]

My opinion is they would be closer to southern Italians and Cretans/Dodecanese, but with less Levantine-like ancestry and probably higher Sardinian/"West Med" type ancestry. I do think modern mainland Greeks -- all of them -- have some degree of Slavic admixture and higher NE European than anything in classical Greece.

The closest Greeks to these classical samples might be Mani, Cyclades, and some North Aegean islands.

[DarknessWin]

My opinion is they would be closer to southern Italians and Cretans/Dodecanese, but with less Levantine-like ancestry and probably higher Sardinian/"West Med" type ancestry. I do think modern mainland Greeks -- all of them -- have some degree of Slavic admixture and higher NE European than anything in classical Greece.

The closest Greeks to these classical samples might be Mani, Cyclades, and some North Aegean islands.

Its not Slavic but Balkan mix. Ancient Greeks had the same mix from Dorians.

So they will be closer to mainland Greeks and the phenotype of the Statues prove my point.
I saw even people claim that the ancient Greeks have a balkan slavic look because of many
DinaroPontid and Pontid statues

The statues and phenotypes of the mainland are still today almost identical .
South Italy and especially Sicely have a lot of phoenician mix and are different than ancient Greeks.
Same we can say about islands close genetically to Sicily with a lot of phoenician mix like Cyprus

From Italy i believe central are closer

[Lauχum]

Getting DNA from the ancient Mediterranean shouldn't be a difficult task. It's just that pop genetics has been consumed by the PIE debate so geneticists would rather do 10 million papers on Corded Ware than literally anything else.

As for the genetics of classical era Greece, we have an Iron Age Bulgarian who is similar to Mycenaeans and a Medieval Bavarian outlier who is also very similar to the Iron Agee and the Mycs. These are probably either Greek migrants or Paleo-Balkan people. If they're Greek migrants then it means there wasn't a significant genetic shift between Bronze and Iron Age Greeks, thus mainlanders were considerably impacted during the Slavic invasions, if these Samples were Paleo-Balkan then it means that there was a West Asian influx between the Bronze abd Iron Age, as Bronze Age Bulgarians were North Italian-like, meaning that Classical Greeks may even be more East shifted than Mycs and again, means that Greeks got considerable admixture from the invading Slavic peoples. Dorians were probably not so different from Mycs as there isn't a massive linguistic and cultural divergence between the two, its debatable if there even was a Dorian invasion.

[Aren]

Probably very close to modern day Mainland Greeks and close to Islanders aswell.

[Sikeliot]

Getting DNA from the ancient Mediterranean shouldn't be a difficult task. It's just that pop genetics has been consumed by the PIE debate so geneticists would rather do 10 million papers on Corded Ware than literally anything else.

As for the genetics of classical era Greece, we have an Iron Age Bulgarian who is similar to Mycenaeans and a Medieval Bavarian outlier who is also very similar to the Iron Agee and the Mycs. These are probably either Greek migrants or Paleo-Balkan people. If they're Greek migrants then it means there wasn't a significant genetic shift between Bronze and Iron Age Greeks, thus mainlanders were considerably impacted during the Slavic invasions, if these Samples were Paleo-Balkan then it means that there was a West Asian influx between the Bronze abd Iron Age, as Bronze Age Bulgarians were North Italian-like, meaning that Classical Greeks may even be more East shifted than Mycs and again, means that Greeks got considerable admixture from the invading Slavic peoples. Dorians were probably not so different from Mycs as there isn't a massive linguistic and cultural divergence between the two, its debatable if there even was a Dorian invasion.



I absolutely believe modern Greece has significant input from Slavs, and I also believe that Aegean islanders with elevated NE European compared to the average have it because of more recent mainland ancestry. Similarly, I think that some southern Italians who have more NE European than average, likely have recent (last 1000 years) Greek ancestry also.

I would be very, very surprised if any classical era sample from Greece has this.

[kleenex]

I absolutely believe modern Greece has significant input from Slavs, and I also believe that Aegean islanders with elevated NE European compared to the average have it because of more recent mainland ancestry. Similarly, I think that some southern Italians who have more NE European than average, likely have recent (last 1000 years) Greek ancestry also.

I would be very, very surprised if any classical era sample from Greece has this.

I read that there was a 6th century influx of Slavs to the Western part of the Peloponnese that wasn't under the protection of the Byzantines (who were in the Eastern part of the Peloponnese), however there was a resettlement of Italians to the Western Pelooponnese after the expulsion of the Slavs later in the 6th or 7th century. I wonder if there may have been some absorption of Slavic dna at that time. Also may explain why there is higher West Med in the Western Peloponnese (because of Italian population resettlement?).

[Sikeliot]

I read that there was a 6th century influx of Slavs to the Western part of the Peloponnese that wasn't under the protection of the Byzantines (who were in the Eastern part of the Peloponnese), however there was a resettlement of Italians to the Western Pelooponnese after the expulsion of the Slavs later in the 6th or 7th century. I wonder if there may have been some absorption of Slavic dna at that time. Also may explain why there is higher West Med in the Western Peloponnese (because of Italian population resettlement?).


That really depends because some of the regions that Italians were brought from -- and these were Greek-speaking people from southern Italy, mind you -- would not have had higher West Med than the native Peloponnese.

I wonder if the higher West Med is actually just carried over DNA from Mycenaeans.

[catgeorge]

DNA will be low quality or up for debate. But in terms of race there is no debate

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ohocmvHfgs8/VKy0QdszPeI/AAAAAAAAArw/GVlOfokyI-w/s1600/Angel's%2BData%2Bfigure%2B6.jpg

[Coolguy1]

South Italians and islanders may be closer to classical era Greeks in a genetic distance sense, but this is only because their extra near eastern ancestry is not as far a source as Slavs are to mainland Greeks. Both islanders and mainlanders share similar levels of Mycenaean like ancestry. Around 60-70% on average.

[kleenex]

South Italians and islanders may be closer to classical era Greeks in a genetic distance sense, but this is only because their extra near eastern ancestry is not as far a source as Slavs are to mainland Greeks. Both islanders and mainlanders share similar levels of Mycenaean like ancestry. Around 60-70% on average.

Do you think that there was greater genetic continuity between Bronze and Classical eras than between Classical era and post Slavic middle ages mainland Greece?

[Coolguy1]

Do you think that there was greater genetic continuity between Bronze and Classical eras than between Classical era and post Slavic middle ages mainland Greece?

Im not sure. Considering modern day southern Italians and islander Greeks can only be modeled correctly with 10-15% more ancestry from a steppe source compared to Mycenaeans, Im assuming this admixture came with future steppe migrations and perhaps the Dorians. So, im expecting classical age mainland Greeks can be modeled as 85-90% Mycenaean and the rest from some steppe source.

[kleenex]

Im not sure. Considering modern day southern Italians and islander Greeks can only be modeled correctly with 10-15% more ancestry from a steppe source compared to Mycenaeans, Im assuming this admixture came with future steppe migrations and perhaps the Dorians. So, im expecting classical age mainland Greeks can be modeled as 85-90% Mycenaean and the rest from some steppe source.

I'm not sure about the Dorians bringing in additional IE. I wonder if modern mainland Greeks may be closer genetically to Classical (and post Classical) Macedonians.

[kleenex]

My opinion is they would be closer to southern Italians and Cretans/Dodecanese, but with less Levantine-like ancestry and probably higher Sardinian/"West Med" type ancestry. I do think modern mainland Greeks -- all of them -- have some degree of Slavic admixture and higher NE European than anything in classical Greece.

The closest Greeks to these classical samples might be Mani, Cyclades, and some North Aegean islands.

So curious what Classical/ancient population would mainland Greeks cluster with? I would think ancient Macedonians or another ancient Balkan population (pre-Slavic).

[Tauromachos]

So curious what Classical/ancient population would mainland Greeks cluster with? I would think ancient Macedonians or another ancient Balkan population (pre-Slavic).

The basic Ancient Ancestry of Mainland Greeks is Mycanaean

Not some Balkan population

End

[JQP4545]

Unfortunately, we don't know what the social status would have been of the people from whom the Mycenaean DNA was extracted. If the Greek language was brought from the Steppe then the ancient Greek upper classes may have been more northern shifted than many of the Mycenaean samples. One of the Cretan samples (some have speculated that this may be a Dorian) plots on PCA maps with Central Europeans. David Wesolowski over at the Eurogenes blog recently published an article which highlighted a late Neolithic sample from ancient Greece which plots on the PCA map between French and Croatians (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html). I believe there is also an ancient Iron Age Bulgarian of a high social status (K8) which plots with French and Germans so perhaps this could hint that the ancient Greek upper classes harbored more of this DNA.

[Teucer]

I love how everyone loves to fixate on the measly 15-20% of Mycenaean ancestry being from the 'Steppe' when they also received around the same amount of input from Bronze Age Caucasus/Iranians. That is also excluding the fact that the vast majority of their make up was 'Neolithic', or more aptly termed Western-Anatolian.

[Sikeliot]

I love how everyone loves to fixate on the measly 15-20% of Mycenaean ancestry being from the 'Steppe' when they also received around the same amount of input from Bronze Age Caucasus/Iranians. That is also excluding the fact that the vast majority of their make up was 'Neolithic', or more aptly termed Western-Anatolian.

Most of their makeup corresponded to EEF/"Sardinian". Then they had a sizable Iran Neolithic/Caucasus element and 20% Steppe.

[Teucer]

Most of their makeup corresponded to EEF/"Sardinian". Then they had a sizable Iran Neolithic/Caucasus element and 20% Steppe.

And where did these Sardinians come from? You said it yourself, this component isn't specific to Europe since it is also very high among North Africans

[Sikeliot]

And where did these Sardinians come from? You said it yourself, this component isn't specific to Europe since it is also very high among North Africans

I say Sardinian or "West Med" as this is how it is labeled on GEDMatch but this component can be found in all Mediterranean people and much of Western Europe. It is just early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

[Teucer]

Most of their makeup corresponded to EEF/"Sardinian". Then they had a sizable Iran Neolithic/Caucasus element and 20% Steppe.

If this component did not peak in Sardinia but in Morocco, would you still consider it as European?

[Sikeliot]

If this component did not peak in Sardinia but in Morocco, would you still consider it as European?

No. It is highest in Sardinia, Iberia, and NW Africa.

[kleenex]

The basic Ancient Ancestry of Mainland Greeks is Mycanaean

Not some Balkan population

End

You misunderstood what I asked. I was wondering which classical age population would cluster closest to mainland Greeks. Not sure it would be Athenians or Spartans.

[Sikeliot]

You misunderstood what I asked. I was wondering which classical age population would cluster closest to mainland Greeks. Not sure it would be Athenians or Spartans.

To modern mainlanders? Probably Macedonian or Thracian.

[kleenex]

To modern mainlanders? Probably Macedonian or Thracian.

That makes sense to me.

[Tauromachos]

Most of their makeup corresponded to EEF/"Sardinian". Then they had a sizable Iran Neolithic/Caucasus element and 20% Steppe.

No not 20%

But 10% to 14%.