Far-right popularity shocks France

[EnlightenedHumanist]

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[Cato]

*Rolls eyes*

Yes, shocking.

[exceeder]

This reminds me of my last visit to France 5 years ago. I was visiting Toulouse (in the south of France) with my parents and was surprised to see one of the town squares to be filled with north african muslims selling a wide range of visibly counterfit items out in the open.
It shocked me almost as much as being treated with extreme kindness (given the old stereotype that the french of France look down on french canadians of Quebec... and my accent was pretty obvious :P )

There are many policies that I disagree with far-right parties (in general) on, immigration is usually not one of those issues.

[Breedingvariety]

I hope she wins!

Maybe negrization of France is taking its toll?

[EnlightenedHumanist]

When Le Pen lost in 2007 it was viewed as the end of far-right in France because Sarkozy's UMP had hijacked some of his views. I knew then that he wouldn't deliver on his promises to fix the situation and the far-right would return viewing him as failing to deliver on his promises to restore order.

The new numbers are in, 24% will vote for Marine Le Pen and (who is younger, gives sense of being more moderate, and is a woman). Nearly 45% of all French believe that Islam is the enemy "within." The times are changing.

The reason this is really a shock is because whatever happens to France usually resonates world over. France is the home of Liberalism and if France becomes a right wing state it suggests a symbolic change for the future.

[Adalwolf]

Is it so shocking that the French don't want their country to be a Muslim/Negro cesspool within 50 years. Besides London, Paris is the most multicultural city on earth, and things are steadily getting worse.

[Sword of the Morning]

France is the home of Liberalism and if France becomes a right wing state it suggests a symbolic change for the future.

Please, please, please let it be so! :rockon:

[Joe McCarthy]

I hope she wins!

Maybe negrization of France is taking its toll?

Le Pen might can get into round 2 against the Socialist candidate. I don't see how she gets a majority in a runoff though.

[Loki]

What really should shock France is the high amount of non-European immigrants. The success of far-right parties is a consequence of the former, and was actually quite predictable to anyone not naive.

[Austin]

All I know of France is what my two Saudi friends who had holidayed there told me at university. They viewed France and it's system disparagingly is all I'd venture to say without being too descriptive. It made me sad for France.

[Joe McCarthy]

All I know of France is what my two Saudi friends who had holidayed there told me. They viewed France disparagingly is all I will say. It made me sad for France.

Is there a place Saudis don't view disparagingly?

Other than the obvious, that is.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't even think England is screwed, so I don't see how France is particularly different in a "leftist" direction from other European nations except that that American media attempts to paint France as the only European country that exists and as an extention of the Democratic Party or San Francisco. So, for example, the French aren't on 'race forums' because French people actually prefer using their own language instead of participating in international Anglophonic societies.

Then again, French is the 2nd to English in terms of internationalist lingua franca, and so we have the non-multicultural but directly multiracial French Community of Negro, Berber, or Vietnamese 'French'. But that will fall with Jacobinism anyway.

Why it is important to propagandists whether 'right' or 'far right' poll ratings are "on the rise" has an obvious explanation, reminding us how no sane person would ever oppose turbo-negrisation lest Da Nazis put your grandma in a microwave.

They're saying popularity shocks France? Who is France then but the populous in popularity?


Is there a place Saudis don't view disparagingly?

Saudi Arabia and US universities?

[Don]

If weren't for the legions of foreigners (no matter 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation, they are foreigners and they are not True French [their "cristianos viejos" analogy]), Marine's Party would be, probably the uncontestable winner.

The hordes of negros and muslims not only fuck the french natives burning their cars in the banlieues. These are incidents compared to the worst matter: these invaders and their (many) descendants are limiting the posibility of the french to decide in their own country.

The same goes for all of us, most invaded by millions of potential votes that increase in each generation more than ours.

Democracy they call it.

[poiuytrewq0987]

If weren't for the legions of foreigners (no matter 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation, they are foreigners and they are not True French [their "cristianos viejos" analogy]), Marine's Party would be, probably the uncontestable winner.

The hordes of negros and muslims not only fuck the french natives burning their cars in the banlieues. These are incidents compared to the worst matter: these invaders and their (many) descendants are limiting the posibility of the french to decide in their own country.

The same for all of us, most recently invaded with high rate of borning potential votes.

We have a black member here who claims to be French because she grew up in France and a piece of paper saying she is. What a load of bunk that is though since in actuality she is not, and never will be French regardless of how assimilated she may be already.

[Don]

We have a black member here who claims to be French because she grew up in France and a piece of paper saying she is. What a load of bunk that is though since in actuality she is not, and never will be French regardless of how assimilated she may be already.


I have an opinion about this important matter involving these hordes of usurpers.
I will just quote myself from a recent post in a finnish thread. Just change the nationality in red by french.


The finnish are not negros and to me they will never be, no matter how many documents they have proving their european nationality or how many idiots who dared to waste their blood with foreigners are among their ancestors.

[Curtis24]

Reading about all these lawless, violent foreigners stresses the hell out of me :/
Do you think one could take a trip to Paris, and still remain safe?

[Austin]

If weren't for the legions of foreigners (no matter 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation, they are foreigners and they are not True French [their "cristianos viejos" analogy]), Marine's Party would be, probably the uncontestable winner.

The hordes of negros and muslims not only fuck the french natives burning their cars in the banlieues. These are incidents compared to the worst matter: these invaders and their (many) descendants are limiting the posibility of the french to decide in their own country.

The same goes for all of us, most invaded by millions of potential votes that increase in each generation more than ours.

Democracy they call it.


Why not call it what it is instead of hide behind that pathetic word democracy?

It is Liberalism that is your enemy. The sooner you acknowledge that the better.

[Oreka Bailoak]

I don't understand how she is "far right". Is anybody who doesn't like massive immigration considered "far right" by the media?

The definition of "far right" says that "Far right politics also commonly include authoritarianism, nativism, racism and xenophobia". She has slight nativism but absolutely none of the others.

The media is stupid, she seems more like a moderate right wing politician to me.

It's ridiculous and clearly biased to lump her in the same category as Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. This biased categorization the media uses frame EVERY article about her, they have to point it out before they say anything else, and it reminds me of the same authoritarian far right wing mind control categorization tactics used by fascism through government regulated media. What irony.

[Gamera]

I don't understand how she is "far right". Is anybody who doesn't like massive immigration considered "far right" by the media?


Yes.

[The Journeyman]

It's a sad case when a country's cojones have to come from a female.

It's worked out well for them in the past, though.

[Gamera]

It's a sad case when a country's cojones have to come from a female. .

Sounds familiar:

http://www.biographyonline.net/people/images/joan.gif

[Joe McCarthy]

The National Front is certainly of a far right pedigree. Its roots are found in the fascist and fascist-like politics of Action Francais, Vichy, and Poujadism. That said, it is possible to oppose immigration and not necessarily be seen as far right. Geert Wilders is such an example (though the media occasionally tars him too), and he does exceptionally well because he's not far right, nor does he carry fascist baggage in his background.

[Oreka Bailoak]

The National Front is certainly of a far right pedigree. Its roots are found in the fascist and fascist-like politics of Action Francais, Vichy, and Poujadism.
But when you classify a party you shouldn't even consider what some of its old members voted for in the past but only what the actual party stands for today.

And when you look at what the National Front stands for I don't see it being far right in the slightest bit. Yes it has nativism because it doesn't want to give jobs to illegal immigrants when local native French of any ethnicity are out of a job- is that really a far right stance? I strongly don't think so.


The National Front posts a comprehensive political platform on its website. Amongst other things it argues for:

A return to traditional values: to include making access to abortion more difficult or illegal; giving an income to mothers who do not go out to work; promoting local traditional culture.
Greater independence from the European Union and other international organizations.
The establishment of tariffs or other protectionist measures against cheap imports.
Firm sentences for all crimes and reinstatement of the death penalty for "the most heinous crimes".
The end of Non-European immigration and the establishment of the jus sanguinis.

You want to see what far right is? Have a read at a far right party.


We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.
We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
.............Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
........................
We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. ..........

It's absolutely ridiculous to label these two parties in the same category.

[InvaderNat]

Besides London, Paris is the most multicultural city on earth, and things are steadily getting worse.

Actually San Francisco and Los Angeles claim those horrific titles. I hope Marine does well in 2012, although she probably won't win because all the other party's voters will unite against her in the 2nd round.
If she did it would legitimize ethno-Nationalistic views on a global scale - which would good for her European allies like Vlaams Blang, BNP, FPO, Jobbik etc. :thumb001:

[Joe McCarthy]

Oreka, it is possible for a far right movement to become respectable. The neo-fascist Gianfranco Fini moved into the mainstream and is now one of the most powerful men in Italy. Essentially what it amounts to is not to challenge the existing institutions, but only to reform immigration policy. The National Front has not followed Fini's lead though. They have the usual far right hobbyhorses of strident opposition to EU membership, anti-Americanism, and anti-capitalism. If you look into Pierre Poujade you will see its ideological heritage. Le Pen was his disciple. Poujade was an anti-capitalist-anti-Semite who charged that American financiers capped oil wells in Algeria with the intent of turning Algerians against the French. It's the same tired nuttiness we both know all too well...

[SwordoftheVistula]

Reading about all these lawless, violent foreigners stresses the hell out of me :/
Do you think one could take a trip to Paris, and still remain safe?

I went there some years back, and even though some areas are obviously 'bad' you're not likely to actually be attacked. It's just like any major city here, as long as you don't look like you have anything worth stealing or wander into the wrong neighborhood at night or do something stupid you'll probably be OK.


Actually San Francisco and Los Angeles claim those horrific titles.

L.A. is pretty multicultural, but San Francisco is almost half white and 1/3 (northeast) Asian. The combined Black & Hispanic population is only 21%, probably the lowest of any major city in America.

[Adalwolf]

Actually San Francisco and Los Angeles claim those horrific titles.

Surely New York must be pretty bad too. Anyway, I guess my previous point still applies, but just to Europe's demographics.

[InvaderNat]

L.A. is pretty multicultural, but San Francisco is almost half white and 1/3 (northeast) Asian. The combined Black & Hispanic population is only 21%, probably the lowest of any major city in America.


Surely New York must be pretty bad too. Anyway, I guess my previous point still applies, but just to Europe's demographics.

Well I know for a fact that California is the most ethnically/racially diverse area on the planet, so I'm guessing LA and SF have a lot to do with that.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Well I know for a fact that California is the most ethnically/racially diverse area on the planet, so I'm guessing LA and SF have a lot to do with that.


Surely New York must be pretty bad too. Anyway, I guess my previous point still applies, but just to Europe's demographics.

New York has gotten a lot better in recent years. Manhattan and Brooklyn are getting whiter, the Bronx is still pretty bad, and a lot of the rubbish has moved out to Long Island and smaller cities in the region.

California might be the most diverse US state after Hawaii, but it's mainly LA and some farming areas which have lots of Mexicans. San Francisco is mostly white&asian, and northern California as a whole is mostly white.

[The Lawspeaker]

Reading about all these lawless, violent foreigners stresses the hell out of me :/
Do you think one could take a trip to Paris, and still remain safe?
Yes. Just stay in the city centre and don't venture out into the banlieue.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Considering the state of France, no one should be surprised... It's always appalling to see French athletic squads, they re almost always 50-80% negroid/arabic.

[Adalwolf]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wtj1WUZZi4A/TCKjTnxh28I/AAAAAAAAATY/Mg1cDihMAi0/s1600/france_world_cup_soccer_team.jpg

French national team 2009.

[The Ripper]

Essentially what it amounts to is not to challenge the existing institutions, but only to reform immigration policy.

Says it all, really. :coffee:

[Joe McCarthy]

Says it all, really. :coffee:

If the point is to be edgy and rebellious, these far right notions are the way to go. If the point is to be serious and successful, there is another way.

[The Ripper]

If the point is to be edgy and rebellious, these far right notions are the way to go. If the point is to be serious and successful, there is another way.

Immigration of Muslims into Europe is not our only problem, and not our biggest problem. There are other problems. If you have no vision, if you are scared an timid, Geert Wilders is the way to go.

[Joe McCarthy]

Immigration of Muslims into Europe is not our only problem, and not our biggest problem. There are other problems. If you have no vision, if you are scared an timid, Geert Wilders is the way to go.

Wilders has succeeded in cutting a deal to have immigration reduced by half and is the anchor of the minority government in Holland. The National Front has never come remotely close to achieving those kinds of results, despite the fact that they've been around for over 30 years longer than the PVV.

The reason for this? Well, everyone knows the National Front are warmed over fascists, and Jean-Marie Le Pen's frequent comments trivializing the Holocaust, defending the Nazi occupation, etc., only made it impossible to concentrate on the only thing of real importance anymore - demographics.

[The Ripper]

There's more to it than demographics.

Finns are about to vote in record numbers (its not at all impossible that they will be the biggest party) for a nationalist-conservative party, a party which isn't anti or pro-Israel, which doesn't condemn or condone political movements from 70 years ago, but one that works to revive Finnishness as a positive identity and they have already forced other parties to change their programs.

We'll see how FN does under Marine.

You don't need to be a pro-Israeli, pro-American neo-con to become influential (as most European voters are anti-American and anti-Israeli). :coffee:

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Rippumatto
You don't need to be a pro-Israeli, pro-American neo-con to become influential.

In Finland that is probably true.


(as most European voters are anti-American and anti-Israeli).

Only casually. They don't come close to reaching far right levels. The European mainstream does not favor things like the destruction of NATO or anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism of the fascist variety.

[The Ripper]

In Finland that is probably true.

It should be true for all of Europe, and we can make it so. America did not always reign supreme, and it sure as shit won't do so for eternity. Its hegemony is now more questionable than in the last 60 years.


Only casually. They don't come close to reaching far right levels. The European mainstream does not favor things like the destruction of NATO or anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism of the fascist variety.

The European "mainstream" is not terribly pro-Nato, you know. Besides, you don't need to be a fanatic to be a nationalist. The True Finns aren't, yet they manage to be nationalist. Your dichotomy is false, and rather PC in nature.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Riippumatto
The True Finns aren't, yet they manage to be nationalist.

The True Finns operate in Finland and as the country has a history of being 'neutral', they aren't a member of NATO to begin with, and staying out is generally politically popular. It's not representative of Europe as a whole, and True Finns are not regarded as an especially radical party by European standards.


Your dichotomy is false, and rather PC in nature.

My dichotomy is based on reality and history.

[The Ripper]

The True Finns operate in Finland and as the country has a history of being 'neutral', they aren't a member of NATO to begin with, and staying out is generally politically popular. It's not representative of Europe as a whole, and True Finns are not regarded as an especially radical party by European standards.

As I said, they're not fanatics but they are nationalist, not neo-con.


My dichotomy is based on reality and history.

Your dichotomy is based on a politically correct reality and on the assumption that Americanism will continue to reign supreme.

[CelticTemplar]

It's shocking that it has taken this long for the French People to recognize that socialism and unlimited immigration doesn't work.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's shocking that it has taken this long for the French People to recognize that socialism and unlimited immigration doesn't work.
What's it with Americans and their damn obsession with socialism ? France isn't socialist, it just has socialised medicine but has a free market system (as all of Europe has) and they probably wouldn't have had all the immigrants if they had been socialist because the former socialist countries didn't receive much attention from immigrants.

Why ? Simple: in the capitalist system one needs cheaper workers then the own workforce that had finally stood up for it's rights. Immigrants were the "perfect" workers: obeying the bosses without question, very cheap and they could be abused and lied too as they didn't speak the language anyway. And even better: it would create division amongst the imported and local workforce so loans could be pushed back down.

[SwordoftheVistula]

France isn't socialist, it just has socialised medicine but has a free market system (as all of Europe has)

Relatively speaking, it's more socialist than North/Central Europe and the former British colonies.


and they probably wouldn't have had all the immigrants if they had been socialist because the former socialist countries didn't receive much attention from immigrants.

That's because nobody wanted to go there. They had to take measures to prevent their own citizens from fleeing.


Why? in the capitalist system one needs cheaper workers

It's because capitalism creates wealth, and wealth draws immigrants from both inside and outside the country. The Persian Gulf states, while being more socialist than most European countries, have a large foreign workforce.

Socialism also creates a need for a continual flow of immigrants to do low wage jobs in any society with any sort of wealth. When citizens have access to social welfare programs, they will choose this over working low wage jobs, thus noncitizens who do not have access to these programs are needed to fill those low wage jobs. When the children of the immigrants become citizens and have access to those programs, a new wave of immigrants is needed. Also, if immigrants have access to social welfare programs, that obviously is a draw for them to come to the country.

[EnlightenedHumanist]

Oreka, Le Pen's Front National is fascist philosophically but legalistically "Conservative." If the party comes to power I would not expect any sort of pograms like what existed in Nazi Germany; however, if the party is forced into a chaotic situation it could easily revert to Fascism. This could very well happen as the opposing force in France would likely force them to in order to stay in power.



Oreka, it is possible for a far right movement to become respectable.

We are likely to see this more and more as the situation in Western nations deteriorates over time. The issue is not so much over her getting elected or not, but rather the increasingly popularity of far-right parties. Societies across the globe (despite dominant Liberal theory) are reverting to Conservativism, Authoritarianism, Fascism, etc. As Liberal theory cannot solve the world's problems this realization is changing the situation considerably. Over time a threshold will be reached and we can expect tectonic changes.

With Radical Liberalism having laid waste to the morality of man, the ex-Liberals will be ripe for Neo-Fascism and the philosophy of the will. It is in the traditional dichotomy of western philosophy to alternate between black and white instead of exploring shades of grey.

Shall I quote Tony Blair, "The 20th century was a century of ideological conflict, we can expect 21st to be a century of religious and ethnic conflict."

[Gaztelu]

It's shocking that it has taken this long for the French People to recognize that socialism and unlimited immigration doesn't work.

There are many different schools of socialism. Please don't attempt to lump them all together like those Neocon tools on Fox News.