Scandinavian R1b U152

[Gwydion]

What do you think is the origin of Scandinavian R1b U152? Is it possible that some of the R1b U152 in Britain or other areas the Vikings settled is of Norse origin? For example there are apparently three R1b U152+ samples from the Shetlands and I believe a few from Orkney as well along with one from the Isle of Lewis/Harris, all areas where the Norse colonized historically.

Here's two different maps of known R1b U152 samples in Scandinavia:

https://i.imgur.com/ZPl3ECk.png

https://i.imgur.com/CyH4LAZ.png

Typically U152 is associated with the Alpine Celts, Gauls, and perhaps Italic tribes, but there is a sample from Scotland circa 1800 BCE so I imagine it possible early U152 also may have made its way into Scandinavia?

[Peterski]

Read this article: http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

[Bobby Martnen]

Rethelites

[Gwydion]

Doing some research it seems that there have been Bell Beakers who have tested positive for R1b U152. The Bell Beakers also appear to have been in Scandinavia, particularly interesting being North Jutland where relatively higher percentages of U152 are found:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/24/9d/7d/249d7d396004e2bb99bb2adb136e0579--leveon-bell-ancient-mysteries.jpg

I suppose the topic is of personal interest for me because the traditional origin of my family and surname (Kerr) is Norse settlers of Scotland, the name still being a surname in modern Scandinavian populations (Kjaer) as well as being present in old Norse Sagas (Kar of Gryting from Hakon the Good's Saga.) Initially I thought being R1b U152 meant it unlikely that my ancestors could have been Norsemen, but as we can see it is present in Scandinavia as a minority HG and also in places the Norse settled as mentioned, such as Shetlands, Orkney, Lewis, etc. so I suppose it is still possible in my own case.

[Peterski]

I suppose the topic is of personal interest for me because the traditional origin of my family and surname (Kerr) is Norse settlers of Scotland, the name still being a surname in modern Scandinavian populations (Kjaer) as well as being present in old Norse Sagas (Kar of Gryting from Hakon the Good's Saga.) Initially I thought being R1b U152 meant it unlikely that my ancestors could have been Norsemen, but as we can see it is present in Scandinavia as a minority HG and also in places the Norse settled as mentioned, such as Shetlands, Orkney, Lewis, etc. so I suppose it is still possible in my own case.

There are plenty of subclades (sub-branches) of R1b-U152.

You should check what is your subclade. You might try YSEQ:

https://www.yseq.net/

I belong to a sub-branch of R1b-DF27 known as R1b-L617:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199299-Map-of-R-L617

Even within L617, there are further sub-branches, as you can see here:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=618

I apparently belong to this sub-branch which is most common in Iberia.

However, my closest Y-STR matches are actually from Scotland, this clan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm

[Peterski]

I suppose the topic is of personal interest for me because the traditional origin of my family and surname (Kerr) is Norse settlers of Scotland, the name still being a surname in modern Scandinavian populations (Kjaer) as well as being present in old Norse Sagas (Kar of Gryting from Hakon the Good's Saga.) Initially I thought being R1b U152 meant it unlikely that my ancestors could have been Norsemen, but as we can see it is present in Scandinavia as a minority HG and also in places the Norse settled as mentioned, such as Shetlands, Orkney, Lewis, etc. so I suppose it is still possible in my own case.

Clan Chisholm is also considered to be of Norman origin, right?

However, I checked the Chisholm Project at FTDNA. And not all members belong to R1b:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chisholm/default.aspx?section=yresults

In fact, it seems that most of Clan Chisholm members are I1 and a smaller part are R1b.

How can one clan / one surname have many haplogroups? Adoptions?

My close Y-STR matches are - of course - with just two of R1b Chisholms, not I1 ones.

[Gwydion]

Clan Chisholm is also considered to be of Norman origin, right?

However, I checked the Chisholm Project at FTDNA. And not all members belong to R1b:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chisholm/default.aspx?section=yresults

In fact, most of Clan Chisholm members belong to I1 and only a minority belong to R1b.

How can one clan/surname have many haplogroups? Adoptions?

Yeah so far it looks like my family may be the only R1b U152 Kerrs to date based on the project at FTDNA. And yes it seems ones name could change based on a variety of factors, such as becoming a vassal of a particular clan and adopting their surname. In the case of the MacGregor family, many were forced to adopt new name:

http://www.duhaime.org/LawMuseum/LawArticle-1593/1604-The-Abolition-of-the-Surname-Macgregor.aspx

In my own name's case there was once a barony in Ayrshire which belonged to the Kers of Kersland but was inherited by the Crawfurd family who subsequently changed their name to Kerr.

So in a certain regard I suppose one cannot place too much stock in surnames since they could be changeable and not necessarily correlate perfectly with DNA, but the possible Norse origin of my name and family still interests me. Whatever the case it had to arise in an area where Norse speakers were once strong as this book on Viking DNA in Lancashire mentions (here using the spelling "Carr"):

https://i.imgur.com/wc5qTc7.png

[Gwydion]

Figured I'd add this for anyone interested, not sure if the understanding here is outdated or not but from Moffat and J. Wilson, The Scots: A Genetic Journey (2011).



Just as R1b-U152 and R1b-U106 cluster together in Alsace, so they do in eastern Scotland and East Anglia. This may reflect succeeding waves of incomers carrying R1b-U152 from the Continent, all preferring the best arable land, the earliest in the Iron Age, but the later ones of Angle and Norse. The L2 subclade of U152 may prove helpful in distinguishing the Germanic migrants from earlier ones.

[Artek]

I have made a quick check at YFull and there are some clades connected so far with Norse people, although most of them don't seem to be deep rooted:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y30649/ (~ 1000 years after bottleneck)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-A14636/ (~500 years)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y16875/ (~1600 years, that's the oldest cluster so far)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y32770/ (~1200 years, Finns or Finnish-Swedes only?)

And many singletons from various subclades. Hard to say, probably its origins is quite diverse. Starting from Bell Beakers, through Celtic people and maybe less common Germanic sort and ending with more recent migrations from mainland Europe). Scandinavians are quite well tested at FTDNA (maybe aside Icelandic and Faroese people) so I recommend doing Y-STR testing and ordering a Big Y to find out the closest connections).

Anyway an answer is - yes, some of U152 could have been brought by Norse people to Britain. But it is just less likely than the other way around and needs more investigation, especially high resolution testing of ancient bones of Norse people.

[Gwydion]

To add some more data about possible Scandinavian U152 in Britain, I came across this earlier by the Dr. Faux mentioned previously by Peterski:


Furthermore it is clear that percentage wise there is more U152 in
Scotland than there is anywhere else in the British Isles - yet it is
confined to a circumscribed area known to have been settled by Angles
(south) and Norse (north).

I long ago asked Dr. Wilson to give me a break down of the surnames in
Orkney for U152 as he did in his 2001 paper in relation to R1a1. It
is exactly the same scenario. The U152 is found among those with
apparent Norse surnames (in Orkney farm names; in Shetland
patronymics).

Another interesting tidbit is that R1b U152 has hotspots in what was Westmorland, Northwestern England and while reading on Norse settlement I came across this:

Place-name[107][108][109] and sculptured stone [102][110][111] evidence suggests to one historian that the main Scandinavian colonization took place on the west coastal plain and in north Westmorland, where some of the better farming land was occupied.

Of course whatever Scandinavian (whether Anglian/Justish or Danish/Norse) R1b U152 may have entered Britain would have been a minority HG among these groups. It also seems logical to look for sources of British U152 in areas where this is heavier, such as Belgium/Rhineland with Iron Age Celtic migration (Hallstatt/La Tene/Belgae.) This does more explaining Southeastern England's U152 where it is known the Belgae settled and where Caesar reported was much like Gaul, but what of more northerly and remote areas such as Scotland, the Isle of Man, and Shetlands/Orkney? I would imagine medieval Norman, Flemish, and English immigration may account for some but it seems the Norse may also be the origin of some considering they were known to have settled those areas.

Especially in the Shetlands, Orkney, and Lewis/Harris I believe based on place name evidence and changes in things such as fishing technology that it seems the previous inhabitants either abandoned the areas or were annihilated by the Norse incomers. In the case of the Isle of Man I am not aware if there was great English immigration to the island after they gained possession of it, so it seems the two primary groups to inhabit the area were the Gaels and Norse, the former having little R1b U152.

Just some food for thought.

[Bosniensis]

Celts, Gauls, Romans have never been in Scandinavia

Just another nail in coffin about R1b being Celts.

I2 = Celts.