First New Greek Temple Dedicated To The Gods and Goddesses

[Sol Invictus]

VA Salútem Plúrimam Dícit!
S.V.B.E.E.V

Brought to my attention by some Romana comrades..
If going by what they say is true.. this is fantastic news..
I have a new destination spot to add to the list..
Perhaps Absinthe can shed a little more light on this..
so I can relay it back to them confirming it..

Di te incolumem custodiant,

http://12thespis.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/ellinonaos1/


http://i43.tinypic.com/11h6hk0.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/ruw7pw.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/vxd72c.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/344bixd.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2vbwmkk.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2nj8x1c.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/28m1aps.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/33451zn.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2lqt6o.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/mh7fxh.jpg

[Absinthe]

...but this building of grotesque architecture and colors is more reminiscent of a wog taverna in Australia rather than a heathenist temple... :D


Perhaps Absinthe can shed a little more light on this..

I actually heard it from you... :D

The reason I don't bother checking is that, quite unfortunately, 99% of greeks actively practicing the greek religion today are NewAge hippy/liberal nutcases...

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6194/n1233482342303458162761.jpg

...need I say more? :rolleyes: :loco:

[Sol Invictus]

The reason I don't bother checking is that, quite unfortunately, 99% of greeks actively practicing the greek religion today are NewAge hippy/liberal nutcases...

...need I say more? :rolleyes: :loco:

I don't know a whole lot about Ethnikoi or Threskia so could you elaborate on that a little bit..? I assumed their system was similar to Nova Roma's..? I suppose that makes me a nutcase.. :p :D

Guilty as charged.. :D

Really I thought you'd be a little more enthusiastic about this .. :eek:

[Absinthe]

Well, the official Supreme Council of Ethnikoi Hellenes (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php) is run by some liberal hippy who believes in democracy and tolerance and opposes all kinds of right wing activities and claims that right wingers who follow the ancient religion are twisting the tradition and so on and so forth.

I've met some of their members over the years and they're more or less caricatures.

I have no idea as to what Nova Roma is.

I generally believe that graecoroman indigenous religious lack serious representation today (contrary to the norse religion), and that's probably due to the fact that the influence of the christian churche(s) has been more massive and destructive in the south than in the north.

[Psychonaut]

Whatever their politics, good on them for actually building something. Germanic Heathenry has been around in the states for how long now? And we've yet to see anything other than a few converted tool-sheds turned into "hofs."

[lei.talk]

I have no idea as to what Nova Roma is.
Nova Roma is an international Roman revivalist movement created in 1998 (or MMDCCLI a.u.c. by the Roman calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar)) by Joseph Bloch and William Bradford, later incorporated in Maine as a non-profit organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization) with an educational and religious mission. Nova Roma is dedicated "to the restoration of classical Roman religion, culture and virtues".

Because it has a structure based strictly on the ancient Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic), with a Senate, magistrates, and laws enacted by vote of Comitia, and because the Nova Roma Wiki (http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Main_Page) explicitly states that the group self-identifies as a "sovereign nation", most outside observers classify it as a micronation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation). However, some members of Nova Roma assert that the state modeling aspects of the organization are less important than its educational and religious goals.

Nova Roma is somewhat similar to the Society for Creative Anachronism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Creative_Anachronism). Like the SCA, Nova Roma hosts events which members attend, often in historical costume, to discuss ancient culture as well as internal matters, to practice Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) conversation, to visit historic sites (if the event takes place in lands known to the Romans), and to partake in the cuisine of ancient cultures.

Members of Nova Roma also take Roman names (Roman naming conventions) that are used at events and also when conducting business or participating in the various Internet-based community forum.

...more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Roma)

[Loki]

What makes one a "liberal hippy"? Being a paganist?

[Osweo]

Heh, I try to look at the building with my Soul, trying to focus on the intention rather than the superficial, but it jars far too much on the Eye on its way there... :D

Gods, it looks like a garage built by Uzbeks! And those rubbishy pictures on the walls make it look more like a student's flat than a place to deal with the Awesome! Needs more and fatter columns, not too difficult to do in brick and plaster. Having a tree growing IN the steps is a bit stupid too. And those blanket areas of blue and gaudy lettering... yeugh!

B+ for effort, C- for execution, lads! ;) Keep trying though! :wink

[Absinthe]

What makes one a "liberal hippy"? Being a paganist?
No, being a Fluff bunny (http://pagandiversity.com/fluffy.html) :)

[Jägerstaffel]

Whatever their politics, good on them for actually building something. Germanic Heathenry has been around in the states for how long now? And we've yet to see anything other than a few converted tool-sheds turned into "hofs."

Our holy places are our homes and our land.

Temples are good and all but for the day-to-day Heathen family; a temple is not necessary.

[Jamt]

Whatever their politics, good on them for actually building something. Germanic Heathenry has been around in the states for how long now? And we've yet to see anything other than a few converted tool-sheds turned into "hofs."

The Hall or Hofs in Scandinavia was never a temple in the Latin sense. It was the private property of a well off farmer in most cases or aristocracy/kings in some cases. It was a meeting place for feasts and receptions. The Hall was all about status and power in the local community. And that was a good part of the cult.

Build your one private Hall separate from your living quarter, welcome your guests and you got it.

[Psychonaut]

The Hall or Hofs in Scandinavia was never a temple in the Latin sense.

Perhaps generally, but that about the Temple at Uppsala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala)?

[Jamt]

Perhaps generally, but that about the Temple at Uppsala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala)?


I believe 100% in the temple and its important role in the Cult, but the wording temple was from a classic learned German bishop, whose name I forgot now.

A few years ago Swedish archeologists using earth-radar could clearly saw traces of a 3-shipped, Hall looking building underneath the Old Uppsala church. Being under one of Sweden’s oldest churches I doubt it will be excavated anytime soon. But I bet this is it. The old Uppsala is believed to be a king’s farm.

[Sol Invictus]

Our holy places are our homes and our land.

Temples are good and all but for the day-to-day Heathen family; a temple is not necessary.

That all depends on what kind of beliefs you hold. In the Roman Tradition, addressing the Gods and Goddesses in the proper way, in the traditional and historic way, is a strong way our tradition cherishes. Some follow the belief that they should be venerated in a chosen shrine and temple, other strictly oppose that and follow the tradition of channeling your creative energy towards the worship of the ancestors and the Holy powers in a chosen area of your own house.

Asatruar do the very same things by pouring out a libation on ground appropriate for addressing YOUR Holy powers from a drinking horn, toasting the name of the one you revere, while we vaporize salt and mirrh and light a candel or two in recognition of the ones we revere.

Each to his own of course. If I remember correctly, you identified yourself with as Asatru at one point or another so you understand that. If you weren't Asatru at all then I apologize, brother. :D

I suppose that the Roman tradition that I follow is alot different than what these folks in Hellas follow, which is kind of the way history has separated us I suppose..

I reduce my involvement in my ancestral tradition to acknowledging our historic holidays and holding them to be sacred. And I am working on constructing a Lararium, or a private shrine in the house to burn incense, but I want to make it with accurate materials used by the ancient Romans. This is very important to me, otherwise, it just wouldn't be the same. And when I've been blessed with children, it would please me very much to have them involved in the tradition.

I thought it would be a good idea to share this article because it's a step in the right direction towards not letting our gods fade completely out of memory, that their myths and stories of heroism still mean something to a great many of us.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, afterall.

[Aristoteles]

Hello dear friends

In this page

http://prometheia.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/naos/

you will find all the information, in English, about the Hellenic Temple that was built in Thessaloniki, Makedonia, Greece

http://prometheia.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/small4-ceb9ceb1cebdcebfcf85ceb1cf81ceb9cebfcf85-2008_-cebdceb1cebfcf83-ceb1cf81ceb9cf83cf84cebfcf84ceb5cebbceb7_cf89cf81c eb1ceb9cebfceba.jpg

http://12thespis.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/small4-ceb9ceb1cebdcebfcf85ceb1cf81ceb9cebfcf85-2008_-cebdceb1cebfcf83-ceb1cf81ceb9cf83cf84cebfcf84ceb5cebbceb7_cf89cf81c eb1ceb9cebfceba7.jpg?w=462&h=694

[Maelstrom]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the interior photos of that temple remind me a great deal of the interiors of kebab shops in Germany. Just seems really tacky.

[Aristoteles]

However, it is true that the architectonical and the aesthetics knowledge is not enough for the construction of a temple, close to the classical masterpieces of our ancestors, if there isn’t the financial strength in order to realize such an architectural plan. But, instead of waiting for a possible sponsor and not do anything until then, we choose to act, even if we disappoint few of the admirers of the ancient Greek art who have high demands concern the design, but… are waiting others to take the initiative. Nowadays is more important the existence of a Temple, that can be useful as a start for even better, richer and aesthetically completed constructions. Let’s hope others will follow this example and make it even more perfect.

As Mr. Kakogeorgiou (creator and founder of the Temple) declared: «My intention was to create a work like this with conscientiousness and love. A home, inside of which, the Greek Gods and Heroes deserve to rest and to become a space for everyone who think according to the Greek spirit, without regard to one’s race and nationality. I took into consideration both the East and West in order to place the direction of the construction, but I didn’t follow the exact ancient models. I know the constructional weaknesses. I want to note that it is very difficult to construct a temple with the exact ancient models, because in order to achieve the exact models, it needs many and different technical groups, as well as studies from architectural offices, something that will make the cost unbearable for an individual. If I had followed the classical specifications, my financial strength would have been enough to place only the initial foundations. But for me, it was and it still is very important to exist a resemblance of a Temple. It was something spontaneous to implement an eager desire for a Hellenic Temple in Northern Greece (Makedonia)».

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah this wasn't intended to create an awe inspiring temple dedicated to Imperial Glory. It is a modest place created by community. It is the step in the right direction for the future, when it is at last safe to errect monuments to the gods that will once again captivate the Earth.

[Óttar]

I think the temple does look garish and amateur. However, I believe the statues are a nice touch and the temple is the first attempt, and a step in the right direction. This community obviously was not rich enough to construct a classical temple. I've always said if I had a lot of money I would construct a number of Greek or Roman temples and hire priests to officiate in the original tongue. Reconstructionism and an attitude of solemnity are keys to combatting fluffy-ism.

I cannot believe for the life of me that an eccentric rich person with a love of classical culture has not already built many pagan temples. You mean there isn't a George Cecil Rhodes or someone out there who can resurrect the ancient faith(s)?!!

All it takes is for a number of temples with aesthetic beauty, symmetry and a spirit of numinosity and solemnity to bring the ancient traditions back to life. We need to get paganism out of the kitchens and into the boardrooms and courtrooms. Paganism needs "suit-power." Start a record company. Start a private endeavour say a store selling candles with images of gods on them, selling holy cards, images, prayer books i.e. all the stuff you see in a Catholic gift shop. The reason why Catholicism is the number one sect of Christianity today is precisely because of their use of Classical Imagery and terminology! The titles of Christ and the BVM are the titles of Mithras and the goddesses respectively. Take the tradition back!!!

Not St. Martin... MARS! Not Maria... ISIS! Not St. Christopher... ATLAS! (He's not a god, but he was the model IMO for St. Christopher). Not Christ...MITHRAS!!! Not the pope... The Pontifex Maximus (A PAGAN TITLE!) of the High Roman priestly colleges!

STRIP OFF THE CHRISTIAN VENEER!!! Let us worship the Olympians once more!


*I am not baptised in the blood of the lamb!* I am baptised in the blood of bulls! In the blood of the bull slain by Mithras! In the blood of CYBELE! Io Evoe, Megala Meter! Ave Magna Mater!

Mater Augustissima, Te Advocamus! Te Adoremus! Come back to us!

::deep breath:: :D

[Óttar]

...but this building of grotesque architecture and colors is more reminiscent of a wog taverna in Australia rather than a heathenist temple...


Gods, it looks like a garage built by Uzbeks!

Ancient Greek and Roman temples were brightly coloured. The Temple of Artemis at Ephesos was painted in bright colours. The paint has fallen off of the ruins that we find nowadays. This is also true of the Pyramids and Egyptian temples. Greek and Roman temples were not monochromatic white, nor were Egyptian temples drab and sand coloured. Statues were also brightly painted in a way that might seem gaudy to us today.

It is not unrealistic to think that small ancient shrines would've looked something like this. The interiors of most ancient temples were small, used mainly for housing a statue of a god.

Considering that this group cannot possibly raise the ~$150 million it would take to reconstruct the Temple of Artemis at Ephesos in their back yard, they've done a decent and commendable job.

A side note: I recently learned that some people have actually gotten permission from the Turkish government to build an exact replica, size and all, of the Artemision in Ephesos! Raising the money remains to be seen however.

[Cato]

I find the assumption that the worship of the Olympians being the sole property of the Greeks as an ethnic religion rather silly. My own especialy Olympian, Athena, has connections to several other divinities such as Anahita (Indo-Iranian) and Neith (Egyptian) to name two that I know of besides two more obvious example: Minerva (Roman) and Menvra (Etruscan). Then there are various Athenic aspects: Nike, for example, or Bellona and even the Goddess Roma herself for the Romans.

I personally feel that the Olympians have moved beyond being merely Greek, if Greek they ever were to begin with (rather than, say, pre-Mycenaean Greek or a composite of pre-Mycenaean/Mycenaean Greek and Near Eastern and/or Egyptian), and have become the common heritage of the west as a whole- for who kept them alive for so long but the playwrights, poets, and storytellers of the "barbarian" west?.

[Cato]

I have no idea as to what Nova Roma is.

Roleplayers/cosplayers who give themselves Roman names and pretend to be the modern-day togate race.

[Óttar]

I find the assumption that the worship of the Olympians being the sole property of the Greeks as an ethnic religion rather silly.
No argument there. However, the religion of the Classical period centered around the polis would've been Greek oriented as opposed to the more cosmopolitan religion(s) of the Hellenistic period.

In the ancient world, in any period, you were expected to conduct yourself courteously and respect the gods of whatever territory you were in.

It worries me that the resurrection of the old ways will ultimately have to bow to politics. I revere the gods, but I fear there are many more who are really worshipping a romantic notion of their race/population group as an idol.


Roleplayers/cosplayers who give themselves Roman names and pretend to be the modern-day togate race.

The founder who is the paterfamilias of my gens has done a lot in the attempt to resurrect the religio romana, besides Gentilitas Spiritualita Italica I can't think of anything else that has attempted such a thing.

[Cato]

My views of the Olympian Gods have been colored more by my devotion to Stoicism (especially of the Roman era), with a touch of Hermeticism, than the old religion of the polis. I believe in the cosmopolis of Zeus, that universal city of Gods and Men.

Roman-era Stoicism, and indeed the views of the Gods, leaned heavily towards the veneration of certain Gods, not all of them per se, as universal- Father Zeus being the primary, for how can the Father of Gods and Men be limited as to what people he governs or what portion of the world is a part of his kingdom?

I'm not trying to be Greek, nor am I asking the permission of Greeks to believe in certain of the Olympians. Nor am I trying to be a modern-day Roman like those Novaroma guys. I'm a man of the Anglii, as Tacitus called them, the English- a people with indigenous Gods, true, but Gods, with the possible exception of Odin the Old (although Odin's inspiration is of a maddened sort, whereas the inspiration of Athena is of a milder, more controlled kind; of the two, the latter is superior), that I don't have as strong a connection to as I do to Father Zeus and Athena, two deities that represent far more than interesting, even polytheistic, mythological characters:

Zeus (Monad)
Athena (Emanation of the Monad in the form of wisdom)
Etc.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Pallamedes
although Odin's inspiration is of a maddened sort

Odin comes as close as any deity to Nietzsche’s superman a being of conflicting and contrasting impulses whose purpose is guided by his will. Unlike most Gods he isn’t a one dimensional anthropomorphisation of a function or feeling, he is probably the closest to human (more to the potential within human).

Denial of any aspect of human nature is entirely alien to Odin. To understand what it is to be human one must embrace the “good” and “evil” the “rational” and “irrational”.

The etymological root of his name in “frenzy” comes more, I suspect, from the insanity such an accomplishment can often induce on those who would attempt it.


My views of the Olympian Gods have been colored more by my devotion to Stoicism

I’m tending to strip the layers of later influence away in viewing the Gods as some form of “raw” template, the Homeric deities interest me more than the largely caricatured images that come through in later Greek history.


I'm not trying to be Greek

Whilst I don’t share your view on worship, I feel one needs some form of ancestral link, I don’t believe one has to exclude outside possibilities, unless you are a reconstructionist. The Greeks provide us with a large body of, more or less, European Indo-European mythology and philosophy (the heroic traditions of the Greek and northern people’s were largely similar as well). This is important for me as I’m increasingly disinterested in the mysticism of the Near Eastern cults and the Indian Veddas, I find more depth of pragmatism and affirmation of human life in the European mythology (particularly the Greek and Germanic), which appeals to me far more.

[tired]

I think anyone can worship Zeus if they feel comfortable.Look at all the people converting to islam and buddists

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by tired
I think anyone can worship Zeus if they feel comfortable.

Anyone can……there’s no debate there, everyone should…is a different issue.


Look at all the people converting to islam and buddists

Both of those are missionary faiths that promote universalist tenants. For Muslims, Buddhists and Christians not only can everyone be a Muslim, Buddhist or Christian but everyone should be as well. That’s not the way of indigenous/ethnic religions.

Personally I have a deep love of Greek mythology (ancient Greek culture in general, which, for me, represents much of the best of the European psyche) but I wouldn’t feel comfortable calling on Zeus, I’m not Greek and (to my knowledge) I have no Greek ancestry. Not that I’m telling others what they should do (not my business and I don’t much care) just that’s how I feel about it.

[Óttar]

Whilst I don’t share your view on worship, I feel one needs some form of ancestral link, I don’t believe one has to exclude outside possibilities

I make the case for an intellectual link. Classical civilisation is our intellectual inheritance. We have many records of the Greeks and Romans. There were temples to Isis and Mithras in Britannia, as well as one to Minerva, called Sulis Minerva, being identified with the local goddess in Bath, Britannia Superior. Indeed, there were temples to Roman and mediterranean deities throughout Western Europe.

And on a slightly tangential note, Tacitus mentioning Germans worshipping Isis in his Germania I suspect, was not a case of interpretatio romana, as he says in chapter 9:

Hercules and Mars they appease with more lawful offerings. Some of the Suevi also sacrifice to Isis. Of the occasion and origin of this foreign rite I have discovered nothing, but that the image, which is fashioned like a light galley, indicates an imported worship.

[Osweo]

I make the case for an intellectual link. Classical civilisation is our intellectual inheritance. We have many records of the Greeks and Romans. There were temples to Isis and Mithras in Britannia, as well as one to Minerva, called Sulis Minerva, being identified with the local goddess in Bath, Britannia Superior. Indeed, there were temples to Roman and mediterranean deities throughout Western Europe.
For sure there were, but I'd argue for none of it really having made much of an impact on the locals in Britain. Later material like the Mabinogion has no trace of Roman stuff in the mythical content, just a few political memories, much garbled, like Macsen Wledig, whereas the native stuff is very well retained, if disguised. Tellingly, what was remembered of the Empire was very much 'Britishised'. Early Arthurian authors seem even unaware that Britain was fully incorporated in the Empire.

When Rome went, the pre-Roman world popped up again, however briefly. We see it in the art, in the political division, in the renaissance of Bardism the old religion. You might conclude that Rome and Celt had something of a clash of incompatible personalities in Britain, and never easily fused...

And on a slightly tangential note, Tacitus mentioning Germans worshipping Isis in his Germania I suspect, was not a case of interpretatio romana, as he says in chapter 9:
What grounds do you have to suspect this?

Hercules and Mars they appease with more lawful offerings. Some of the Suevi also sacrifice to Isis. Of the occasion and origin of this foreign rite I have discovered nothing, but that the image, which is fashioned like a light galley, indicates an imported worship.
I was quite satisfied with Grimm's explanation of this, that refutes the far-fetched importation idea.

[Óttar]

I was quite satisfied with Grimm's explanation of this, that refutes the far-fetched importation idea.

Was Grimm there? :cool:

Tacitus says with his very pen that they were carrying a boat. Boats were employed in the worship of Isis in Egypt.

http://images.imagestate.com/Watermark/2368383.jpg


Relief on the reverse side of the first pylon of the Temple of Isis, Philae, Egypt. The relief depicts priests carrying the sacred barque of Isis. The construction of the temple dedicated to the Ancient Egyptian goddess Isis on the island of Philae started during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus in the 3rd century BC and was completed by his successor Ptolemy III Euergetes. It was the last remaining outpost of the Ancient Egyptian religion when the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian closed it down in c550. After damage caused by flooding after the construction of the Aswan Dam, the temple complex was moved, piece by piece, to the nearby island of Agilkai in 1977-1980.

http://www.heritage-images.com/Preview/PreviewPage.aspx?id=2368383&pricing=true&licenseType=RM

Grimm mentions that at a much later date, Indians performed a similar ceremony. So Grimm is himself making an interpretatio indica based on a celebration which came later.

Tacitus wrote in the 1st century AD. The Isis temple at Mainz Germany was built in the last third of the 1st century AD.


Found during excavations for a new shopping arcade in Mainz, the sacred site of the ancient Egyptian deity Isis and the Mater Magna or "great mother" goddess of Asia Minor was carefully recreated in 2000. The temple in Mainz is the only one of its kind in Germany and offers insight into religious mythology and Roman rituals.

The temple was built during the last third of the 1st century AD. Today's full-sensory exhibition takes visitors on a journey back in time to the world of religious mythology that emanated from Rome. More than 300 oil lamps are placed around the temple and there are sacrificial offerings out on open display. Dates, figs and other fruits as well as pine nuts and grain were burnt on the altars, while the fragrance of rare resins and oils was thought to placate the gods.

http://www.germany-tourism.de/ENG/culture_and_events/mythology_mainz.htm

They found this temple out recently. Grimm wouldn't have known about it seeing as he asks something like, 'How on Earth does Isis worship get to Germany in the 1st century?' But indeed, it was there.

[Amapola]

LoL

[poiuytrewq0987]

The temple looks fugly.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Óttar
I make the case for an intellectual link. Classical civilisation is our intellectual inheritance.

Sure, no disagreement there.


We have many records of the Greeks and Romans. There were temples to Isis and Mithras in Britannia, as well as one to Minerva, called Sulis Minerva, being identified with the local goddess in Bath, Britannia Superior. Indeed, there were temples to Roman and mediterranean deities throughout Western Europe.

No concern of mine, my ancestors were still in Scandinavia back then…..my Scottish lecturer at university used to talk about how the Romans had conquered "England" and not "Scotland"....lol.


Tacitus says with his very pen that they were carrying a boat. Boats were employed in the worship of Isis in Egypt.

Practically every agricultural cult from Egypt to Anatolia to Greece to northern Europe involves the use of vessels and sun disks. They are just variations of a myth spread by the first farming communities.

John Grigsby reasonably explains Tacitus’ mention of Isis:

It may be that what Tacitus was recording amongst the Suebi was a variant of the worship of the wagon-borne Nerthus of the Ingaevones, who like Dionysus could have been depicted as travelling in both types of transport. And though, technically, he may have been right in suggesting the Suebic “Isis” had come from abroad, since this boat-born fertility deity had arrived in Scandinavia from the Middle East some 4,000 years before he wrote his account, it could hardly be called “foreign”. The “light warship” was undoubtedly an indigenous vessel, the ancestor of the Viking warships of the Dark Ages.

[Óttar]

There is record of a gladiator who worshipped Anubis, an Egyptian god who was far from being Romanised.

Mystery cults spread all over the place. You cannot expect cults to remain static. All subject peoples of the Roman empire were expected to sprinkle incense to, and respect the Roman gods. Therefore it is not wrong to follow the Roman gods, as the Roman religion was not ethnocentric. Syncretism and trade in both goods and ideas was a fact of life.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Óttar
Therefore it is not wrong to follow the Roman gods, as the Roman religion was not ethnocentric.

It’s not wrong to follow any religion, philosophy, political ideology, etc…….I don’t recall making a moral judgement. All I wrote was that I personally would not feel comfortable following Greek or Roman religions because they are not my ancestral deities, I’m a Folkist you are (I assume) a universalist, that’s all it comes down to at the end of the day. Pays your money makes your choice.


Syncretism and trade in both goods and ideas was a fact of life.

Still is a fact of life……but then so are ethnic specific faiths.

[Osweo]

We're talking about the frontier here, not the multicultural fleshpots of Rome itself. We're talking about the acceptance of a tradition by an entire community, and one known for its stubborn independence, not the whim of an individual.

What do you have in support of the foreignness apart from the boat, which seems ridiculously weak an argument to me?

Here's the relevant section;

Some of the Suevi also perform sacred rites to Isis. What was the cause and origin of this foreign worship, I have not been able to discover; further than that her being represented with the symbol of a galley, seems to indicate an imported religion.
Tacitus is clearly paraphrasing some odd reports with hesitation. I'll go with Grimm, and suppose that there was a deity with a coincidentally similar name. The superficial boat parallel must have reinforced this in the mind of the Roman or Romanised informant.

THere's a note here worth a quick look;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=htUciQ68Ro4C&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=tacitus+isis&source=bl&ots=sGKsdxAjfD&sig=PgfCbA7SQgDpmgjLwYhErSkjsR0&hl=en&ei=BHzYS6LzBdmUsQbe5oT8Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tacitus%20isis&f=false

And here's Grimm in fullness:

3. (ISIS).
The account in Tacitus of the goddess Isis carries us much farther, because it can
be linked with living traditions of a cultus that still lingered in the Mid. Ages.
Immediately after mentioning the worship of Mercurius, Hercules, and Mars, he adds
(cap. 9): Pars Suevorum et Isidi sacrificat. Unde causa et origo peregrino sacro,
parum comperi, nisi quod signum ipsum, in modum liburnae figuratum, docet advectam
religionem. The importation from abroad can hardly consist in the name Isis, seeing
that Mercury, Mars, Hercules, names that must have sounded equally un-German, raised
no difficulty; what looked foreign was the symbol, the figure of a ship, reminding
the writer of the Roman navigium Isidis.
When spring had set in, and the sea, untraversed during winter, was once more
navigable, the Greeks and Romans used to hold a solemn procession, and present a
ship to Isis. This was done on the fifth of March (III non. Mart.), and the day is
marked in the Kalendarium rusticum as Isidis navigium. (18) The principal evidence
is found in Apuleius and Lactantius, (19) two writers who are later than Tacitus,
but the custom must have reached back to a much older date. On Alexandrian coins
Isis appears walking by the side of Pharus, unfurling a sail.
Say that from Egypt the worship if Isis had penetrated to Greece, to Rome, how are
we to imagine, that in the first century, or before, it had got itself conveyed to
one particular race inhabiting the heart of Germany? It must have been a similar
cultus, not the same, and perhaps long established amongst other Germans as well.
I will here draw attention to a strange custom of a much later time, which appears
to me to be connected with this. About the year 1133, in a forest near India (in
Ripuaria), a ship was built, set upon wheels, and drawn about the country by men who
were yoked to it, first to Aachen (Aix), then to Maestricht, where mast and sail
were added, and up the river to Tongres, Looz and so on, everywhere with crowds of
people assembling and escorting it. Whereever it halted, there were joyful shouts,
songs of triumph and dancing round the ship kept up till far into the night. The
approach of the ship was notified to the towns, which opened their gates and went
out to meet it.
We have a detailed, yet not complete report of it in Rodulfi chronicon abbatiae S.
Trudonis, lib. xi., which on the account of its importance I will here insert, from
Pertz 12, 309 seq.:
Est genus mercenariorum, quorum officium est ex lino et lana texere telas, hoc
procax et superbum super alios mercenarios vulgo reputatur, ad quorum procacitatem
et superbiam humiliandam et propriam injuriam de eis ulciscendam pauper quidam
rusticus ex villa nomine Inda (20) hanc diabolicam excogitavit technam. Accepta a
judicibus fiducia et a levibus hominibus auxilio, qui gaudent jocis et novitatibus,
in proxima silva navem composuit, et eam rotis suppositis affigens vehibilem super
terram effecit, obtinuit quoque a potestatibus, ut injectis funibus textorum humeris
ex Inda Aquisgranum traheretur. (21) Aquis suscepta cum utriusque sexus grandi
hominum processione: nihilominus a textoribus Trajectum [Maestricht] est provecta,
ibi emendata, malo veloque insignita Tungris [Tongres] est inducta, de Tungris Los
[Looz]. Audiens abbas (sancti Trudonis) (22) Rodulfus navim illam infausto omine
compactam malaque solutam alite cum hujusmodi gentilitatis studio nostro oppido
adventare, praesago spiritu hominibus praedicabat, ut ejus susceptione abstinerent,
quia maligni spiritus sub hac ludificatione in ea traherentur, in proximoque seditio
per eam moveretur, unde caedes, incendia rapinaeque fierent, et humanus sanguis
multus funderetur. Quem ista declamantem omnibus diebus, quibus malignorum spirituum
Page 170
illud simulacrum loci morabatur, oppidani nostri audire noluerunt, sed eo studio et
gaudio excipientes, quo perituri Trojani fatalem equum in medio fori sui
dedicaverunt, statimque proscriptionis sententiam accipiunt villae textores, qui ad
profanas hujus simulacri excubias venirent tardiores. Pape! Quis vidit unquam tantam
(ut ita liceat latinisare) in rationalibus animalibus brutitatem? quis tantam in
renatis in Christo gentilitatem? Cogebant sententia proscriptionis textores, nocte
et die navim stipare omni armaturae genere, solicitasque ei excubias nocte et die
continuare. Mirumque fuit, quod non cogebant eos ante navim Neptuno hostias
immolare, de cujus naves esse solent regione, sed Neptunus eas Marti reservabat,
quod postea multipliciter factum est.
Textores interim occulto sed praecordiali gemitu Deum justum judicem super eos
vindicem invocabant, qui ad hanc ignominiam eos detrudebant, cum juxta rectam vitam
antiquorum Christianorum et apostolicorum virorum manuum suarum laboribus viverent,
nocte et die operantes, unde alerentur et vestirentur, liberisque suis idipsum
providerent. Quaerebant et conquerebantur ad invicem lacrymabiliter, unde illis
magis quam aliis mercenariis haec ignominia et vis contumeliosa, cum inter
Christianos alia plura essent officia suo multum aspernabiliora, cum tamen nullum
dicerent aspernabile, de quo Christianus posset se sine peccato conducere, illudque
solum esset vitabile et ignobile quod immunditiam peccati contraheret animae,
meliorque sit rusticus textor et pauper, quam exactor orphanorum et spoliator
viduarum urbanus et nobilis judex. Cumque haec et eorum similia secum, ut dixi,
lacrymabiliter conquererentur, concrepabant ante illud, nescio cujus potius dicam,
Bacchi an Veneris, Neptuni sive Martis, sed ut verius dicam ante omnium malignorum
spirituum execrabile domicilium genera diversorum musicorum, turpia contica et
religioni Christianae indigna concinentium. Sancitum quoque erat a judicibus, ut
praeter textores, quicumque ad tactum navi appropinquarent, pignus de collo eorum
ereptum textoribus relinquerent, nisi se ad libitum redimerent. Sed quid faciam?
loquarne an sileam? utinam spiritus mendacii stillaret de labiis meis: sub fugitiva
adhuc luce diei imminente luna matronarum catervae abjecto femineo pudore audientes
strepitum hujus vanitatis, passis capillis de stratis suis exiliebant, aliae
seminudae, aliae simplice tantum calmide circumdatae, chorosque ducentibus circa
navim impudenter irrumpendo se admiscebant. Videres ibi aliquando mille hominum
animas sexus utriusque prodigiosum et infaustum celeusma usque ad noctis medium
celebrare. Quando vero execrabilis illa chorea rumpebatur, emisso ingenti clamore
vocum inconditarum sexus uterque hac illacque bacchando ferebatur; quae tunc videres
agere, ******* est tacere et deflere, quibus modo contingit graviter luere. Istis
tam nefandis factis plus quam duodecim diebus supradicto ritu celebratis,
conferebant simul appidani quid agerent amodo de deducenda a se novi.
Qui sanioris erant consilii, et qui eam susceptam fuisse dolebant, timentes Deum pro
his quae facta viderant et audierant, et sibi pro his futura conjiciebant,
hortabantur ut comburatur (combureretur) aut isto vel illo modo de medio tolleretur;
sed stulta quorundam coecitas huic salubri consilio contumeliose renitebatur. Nam
maligni spiritus, qui in illa ferebantur, disseminaverant in populo, quod locus ille
et inhabitantes probroso nomine amplius notarentur, apud quos remansisse
inveniretur. Deducendam igitur eam ad villam, quae juxta nos est, Leugues
decreverunt. Interea Lovaniensis dominus audiens de daemonioso navis illius
ridiculo, instructusque a religiosis viris terrae suae de illo vitando et terrae
suae arcendo monstro, gratiam suam et amicitiam mandat oppidanis nostris,
commonefaciens eos humiliter, ut pacem illam quae inter illos et se erat reformata
et sacramentis confirmata non infringerent, et inde praecipue illud diaboli
ludibrium viciniae suae inferrent; quod si ludum esse dicerent, quaererent alium cum
quo inde luderent. Quod si ultra hoc mandatum committerent, pacem praedictam in eum
infringerent et ipse vindictam in eos ferro et igne exsequeretur. Id ipsum
mandaverat Durachiensibus dominis, qui et homines ejus fuerant manuatim, et
interpositis sacramentis et obsidibus datis sibi confoederati. Hoc cum jam tertio
fecisset, spretus est tam ab oppidanis nostris quam Durachiensibus dominis. Nam
propter peccata inhabitantium volebat Dominus mittere super locum ******* ignem et
arma Lovaniensium. Ad hanc igitur plebeiam fatuitatem adjunxit se dominus
Gislebertus (advocatus abbatiae S. Trudonis) contra generis sui nobilitatem,
trahendamque decrevit navem illam terream usque Leugues ultra Durachiensem villam,
quod et fecit malo nostro omine cum omni oppidanorum nostrorum multitudine et
Page 171
ingenti debacchantium vociferatione. Leuguenses, oppidanis nostris prudentiores et
Lovaniensis domini mandatis obsequentes, portas suas clauserunt clauserunt et
infausti ominis monstrum intrare non permiserunt.
ENDNOTES:
17. Montfaucon ant. expl. 2, 433. Vredii hist. Flandr. 1, xliv. Mém. de Pacad. celt.
1, 199-245. Mone, heidenth. 2, 346. Back
18. Gesner, script. rei rust., ed. Lips. 1773. 1, 886; so also in the Clend.
vallense, and in the Cal. lambec. (Graevii thes. 8, 98). Back
19. Apuleii met. lib. 11 (Ruhnken p. 764-5): Diem, qui dies ex ista nocte nascetur,
aeterna mihi nuncupavit religio; quo sedatis hibernis tempestatibus et lentis maris
procellosis fluctibus, navigabili jam pelago rudem dedicantes carinam primitias
commeatus libant mei sacerdotes. Id sacrum sollicita nec profana mente debebis
operiri; nam meo monitu sacerdos in ipso procinctu pompae roseam manu dextra sistro
(Egyptian timbrel) cohaerentem gestabit coronam. Incontanter ergo dimotis tuirbulis
alacer continuare pompam meam, volentia fretus; et de proximo dementer velut manum
sacerdotis deosculabundus rosis decerptis, pessimae mihique destestabilis dudum
belluae istius corio te protinus exue. Lactantius, instit. 1, 27: Certus dies
habetur in fastis, quo Isidis navigium celebratur, quae res docet illam non
tranasse, sed navigasse. Back
20. Inden in the Jülich country, afterwards Cornelimünster, not far from Aix; conf.
Pertz 1, 394. 488. 514. 592. 2, 299. 489. Back
21. This of ships being built in a wood and carried on men's shoulders reminds one
of Saxo Gram. p. 93, and of the 'Argo humeris travecta Alpes' (Pliny N.H. 3, 18;
their being set on wheels, of Nestor's story about Oleg; conf. the ship of Fro
above. [An inadvertence on the author's part: the ship is not 'carried,' but 'drawn
by ropes thrown over the weavers shoulders.'] Back
22. St. Tron between Liège and Louvain. Back
(Page 4)
Lovaniensis autem dominus precum suarum et mandatorum contemptum nolens esse
inultum, diem constituit comitibus tanquam suis hominibus, qui neque ad primum,
neque ad secundum, sed nec ad tertium venire voluerunt. Eduxit ergo contra eos et
contra nos multorum multitundinis exercitum armatorum tam peditum quam militum.
Nostro igitur oppido seposito, tanquam firmius munito et bellicosorum hominum pleno,
primum impetum in Durachienses fecit, quibus viriliter resistentibus castellum,
nescio quare, cum posset non obsedit, sed inter Leugues et Durachium pernoctavit.
Cumque sequenti die exercitum applicare disponeret et ex quatuor partibus assultum
faceret, habebat enim ingentem multitudinem, supervenit AdelberoMetensium
primicerius filiorum Lovaniensis domini avunculus, cujus interventu, quia comitissa
Durachiensis erat soror ejus, et Durachiense erat castellum sancti Lamberti,
Lovaniensis dominus ab impugnatione cessavit et ab obsidione se amovit, promisso ei
quod Durachienses paulo post ei ad justitiam suam educerentur. Et cum ista et alia
de dominis et inter dominos tractarentur, pedites et milites per omnia nostra
circumjacentia se diffuderunt, villas nostras, ecclesians, molendina et quaecumque
occurrebant combustioni et perditioni tradentes, recedentes vero quae longe a nobis
fuerant prout cuique adjacebant inter se diviserunt.Obviously, throughout the narrative everything is put in an odious light; but the
proceeding derives its full significance from this very fact, that it was so utterly
repugnant to the clergy, and that they tried in every way to suppress it as a sinful
and heathenish piece of work. On the other hand, the secular power had authorized
the procession, and was protecting it; it rested with the several townships, whether
Page 172
to grant admission to the approaching ship, and the popular feeling seems to have
ruled that it would be shabby not to forward it on its way.
Mere dancing and singing, common as they must have been on all sorts of occasions
with the people of that time, could not have so exasperated the clergy. They call
the ship 'malignorum spirituum simulacrum' and 'diaboli ludibrium,' take for granted
it was knocked together 'infausto omine' and 'gentilitatis studio,' that 'maligni
spiritus' travel inside it, nay, that it may well be called a ship of Neptune or
Mars, of Bacchus or Venus; they must burn it, or make away with it somehow.
Probably among the common people of that region there still survived some
recollections of an ancient heathen worship, which, though checked and circumscribed
for centuries, had never yet been entirely uprooted. I consider this ship,
travelling about the country, welcomed by streaming multitudes, and honoured with
festive song and dance, to be the car of the god, or rather of that goddess whom
Tacitus identifies with Isis, and who (like Nerthus) brought peace and fertility to
motals. As the car was covered up, so entrance to the interior of the ship seems to
have been denied to men; there need not have been an image of the divinity inside.
Her name the people had long ago forgotten, it was only the learned monks that still
fancied something about Neptune or Mars, Bacchus or Venus: but to the externals of
the old festivity the people's appetite kept returning from time to time. How should
that 'pauper rusticus' in the wood at Inden have lighted on the thought of building
a ship, had there not been floating in his mind recollections of former processions,
perhaps of some in neighbouring districts?
It is worthy of note, that the weavers, a numerous and arrogant craft in the
Netherlands, but hateful to the common herd, were compelled to draw the ship by
ropes tied to their shoulders, and to guard it; in return, they could keep the rest
of the people from coming too near it, and fine or take pledges from those who did
so. (23)
Rodulf does not say what became at last of the 'terrea navis,' after it had made
that circuit; it is enough for him to relate, how, on a reception being demanded for
it and refused, heats and quarrels arose, which could only be cooled in open war.
This proves the warm interest taken by contemporaries, fanned as it was to a flame
for or against the festival by the secular and the clerical party.
There are traces to be found of similar ship-processions at the beginning of spring
in other parts of Germany, especially in Swabia, which had then became the seat of
those very Suevi of Tacitus (see Suppl.). A minute of the town-council of Ulm, dated
St. Nicholas' eve 1530, contains this prohibition: 'Item, there shall none, by day
nor night, trick or disguise him, nor put on any carnival raiment, moreover shall
keep him from the going about of the plough and with ships on pain of 1 gulden'.
(24) The custom of drawing the plough about seems to have been the more widely
spread, having originally no doubt been performed in honour of the divinity from
whom a fruitful year and the thriving of crops was looked for. Like the
ship-procession, it was accompanied by dances and bonfires. Sebast. Frank, p. 51ª of
his Weltbuch: 'On the Rhine, Franconia and divers other places, the young men do
gather all the dance-maidens and put them in a plough, and draw their piper, who
sitteth on the plough, piping, into the water; inother parts they draw a fiery
plough kindled with a fire very artificial made thereon, until it fall to wrack.'
Enoch Wiedemann's chronik von Hof tells how 'On Shrove-Tuesday evil-minded lads
drove a plough about, yoking to it such damsels as did not pay ransom; others went
behind them sprinkling chopped straw and sawdust.' (Sächs. provinz. bl. 8, 347.)
Pfeiffer, chron. lib. 2, § 53: 'Mos erat antiquitus Lipsiae, ut liberalibus (feast
of Liber or Bacchus, i.e., carnival) personati juvenes per vicos oppidi aratrum
circum ducerent, puellas obvias per lasciviam ad illius jugum accedere etiam
repugnantes cogerent, hoc veluti ludicro poenam expetentes ab iis quae innuptae ad
eum usque diem mansissent'. (25) On these and similar processions, more details will
be given hereafter; I only wish at present to shew that the driving of the plough
and that of the ship over the country seem both to rest on the same old heathen
idea, which after the dislodgement of the gods by christianity could only maintain
itself in unintelligible customs of the people, and so by degrees evaporate: namely,
Page 173
on the visible manifestation of a beneficent benign divinity among men, who
everywhere approached it with demonstrations of joy, when in springtime the soil was
loose again and the rivers released from ice, so that agriculture and navigation
could begin anew. (26) In this way the Sueves of Tacitus's time must have done
honour to their goddess by carrying her ship about. The forcing of unmarried young
women to take part in the festival is like the constraint put upon the weavers in
Rupuaria, and seems to indicate that the divine mother in her progress at once
looked kindly on the bond of love and wedlock, and punished the backward; in this
sense she might fairly stand for Dame Venus, Holda and Frecke.
The Greeks dedicated a ship not only to Isis, but to Athene. At the Panathenæa her
sacred peplos was conveyed by ship to the Acropolis: the ship, to whose mast it was
suspended as a sail, was built on the Kerameikos, and moved on dry land by an
underground mechanism, first to the temple of Demeter and all round it, past the
Pelasgian to the Pythian, and lastly to the citadel. The people followed in solemnly
ordered procession. (27)
We must not omit to mention, that Aventin, after transforming the Tacitean Isis into
a frau Eisen, and making iron (eisen) take its name from her, expands the account of
her worship, and in addition to the little ship, states further, that on the death
of her father (Hercules) she travelled through all countries, came to the German
king Schwab, and staid for a time with him; that she taught him the forging of iron,
the sowing of seed, reaping, grinding, kneading and baking, the cultivation of flax
and hemp, spinning, weaving and needlework, and that the people esteemed her a holy
woman. (28) We shall in due time investigate a goddess Zisa, and her claims to a
connexion with Isis.
ENDNOTES:
23. Does the author imply that the favour of the peasantry, as opposed to artizans,
makes it likely that this was a relic of the worship of Earth? Supposing even that
the procession was that of the German Isis; Tacitus nowhere tells us what the
functions of this Isis were, or that she 'brought peace and fertility'. ---Trans.
Back
24. Carl Jäger, Schwäb. städtewesen des MA. (Mid. Ages), 1, 525 Back
25. Scheffer's Haltaus, 202. Hans Sachs also relates I. 5, 508ª, how the maids who
had not taken men, were forced into the plough (see Suppl.). Back
26. To this day, in the churches of some villages of Holstein, largely inhabited by
seamen, there hang little ships, which in springtime, when navigation re-opens, are
decorated with ribbons and flowers: quite the Roman custom in the case of Isis (p.
258). We also find at times silver ships hung up in churches, which voyagers in
stress of weather have vowed in case of a safe arrival home; an old instance of this
I will borrow from the Vita Godehardi Hildesiensis: Fuit tunc temporis in
Trajectensi episcopatu vir quidam arti mercateriae deditus, qui frequenter mare
transiret; hic quodam tempore maxima tempestate in medio mari deprehenditur, ab
omnibus conclamatur, et nil nisi ultimus vitae terminus timetur. Tandem finito
aliquanto tempore auxilium beati Godehardi implorabant, et argenteam navim
delaturos, si evaderent, devoverunt. Hos in ecclesia nostra navim argenteam
deferentes postea vidimus (in King Lothair's time). In a storm at sea, sailors take
vows: E chi dice, una nave vo far fare, e poi portarla in Vienna al gran barone;
Buovo d'Antona 5, 32. The Lapps at yule-tide offer to their jauloherra small ships
smeared with reindeer's blood, and hang them on trees; Högström, efterrentninger om
Lapland, p. 511. These votive gifts to saints fill the place of older ones of the
heathen time to gods, as the voyagers to Helgoland continued long to respect
Fosete's sanctuary (p. 231). Now, as silver ploughs too were placed inchurches, and
later in the Mid. Ages were even demanded as dues, these ships and ploughs together
lend a welcome support to the ancient worship of a maternal deity (see Suppl.). Back
Page 174
27. Philostr. de vitis sophist. lib. 2 cap. 1, ed. Paris. 1608, p. 549. Back
28. So Jean le Maire de Belges in his Illustrations de Gaulle, Paris, 1548, bk. 3 p.
xxviii: 'Au temps duquel (Hercules Allemannus) la deesse Isis, royne d'Egypte, veint
en Allemaigne et montra au rude peuple Fusaige de mouldre la farine et faire du
pain.' [[At this time (Hercules Allemannus) the goddess Isis, queen of Egypt, came
in Germany and has shown to the crude Fusaige people how to grind wheat and do
bread.]] J. le Maire finished his work in 1512, Aventin not till 1522; did they both
borrow from the spurious Berosus that came out in the 15th century? Hunibald makes a
queen Cambra, who may be compared with the Langobardic Gambara, introduce the arts
of building, sowing and weaving (see Suppl.). Back

4. HOLDA, HOLLE.
Can the name under which the Suevi worshipped that goddess whom the Romans
identified with Isis---may not at least one of her secondary names----have been
Holda? The name has a purely Teutonic meaning, and is firmly grounded in the living
traditions of our people to this day.

...

Now who is Cisa? One naturally thinks first of that Suevic Isis (p. 257) in Tacitus,
whose name even is not unlike Cisa, Zisa, if we make allowance for the mere dropping
of the initial, an omission which the Roman might be prompted to make by the
similarity of the Isis that he knew. But even if Zisa be totally different from
Isis, she can with all the better right be placed by the side of our Zio, in whom
also was displayed a thoroughly Swabian deity (p. 199); nay, together with our
supposed feminine Ziu (p. 203) there may have been a collateral form Zisâ, so that
her Zisûnberg would exactly correspond to the god's Ziewesberg, Zisberg (see
Suppl.). Shall I bring forward a reason for this guess, which shall be anything but
far-fetched? The Mid. Dutch name for the third day of the week had the curious form
Disendach (p. 125), which being of course a corruption of Tisendach brings us at
once to Tise = Zisa. It is a matter for further researchers to demonstrate, (102)
but that three divinities, Zio, Zisa and Isis, are assigned to the Suevi, is already
abundantly clear.

...

Some few divinities made use of a ship, as may be seen by the stories of Athene's
ship and that of Isis, and Frey's Skîðblaðnir, the best of all ships, Sæm. 45b.

...

This fondness of elves for melody and dance links them with higher beings, notably
with half-goddesses and goddesses. In the ship (of Isis) songs of joy resound in the
night, and a dancing multitude circles round it (p. 258).

...

We must
pay regard to the almost universal rush of nations towards the West: even Isis and
her Suevian ship we managed to trace as far as the Ardennes.---

[Albion]

It looks like a wendy-house :rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D

Next we'll see the Celtic pagan temple... (click here) (http://www.kidstuffinabox.com/clients/IndoorPlayhouse/itemimages/T300/00501WendyHouse.png) :rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D

http://www.kidstuffinabox.com/clients/IndoorPlayhouse/itemimages/T300/00501WendyHouse.png

[Óttar]

I guess what I'd like to say is, I think that the attitude which one has toward the deities and the way in which a religion is practiced is more important to me than the ethnic element per se. For example, I know it would never happen, but supposing a contingent of Muslims decided they would completely assimilate and adopt Anglo-Saxon heathenry with a requisite solemn attitude, I would have more respect for them than for fluff bunnies or indigenous Britons who had no respect for the indigenous "heathen" faith.

Like the humble Hof in the pagan architecture thread, there is a half black kid in the gathered crowd. If he should decide to be a heathen, I would have more respect for him than a Briton who had no interest in heathenry. Now, this isn't to say I think it realistic to have a bunch of black heathens, and so therefore we should import foreign workers and attempt to convert them (such a thing didn't exist in ancient times). We should have a sensible immigration policy no doubt, but ultimately I think it is solemnity and disseminating the proper spirit of the heathen faith which matters.

In the ancient world, the Greeks and the Romans came into contact with, and identified with, or imported and supported the cults of foreign deities. The matronae and Romanised Celtic and Germanic deities are but one manifestation of this. Rome was very tolerant of other beliefs (Christianity and pure Judaism being an outlying exception because these two faiths were disrespectful of the Roman state religion.) There even were rare cases of Egyptians mating and pairing with Italians in Roman ports, Isis worship came to Rome through trade.

I venerate Isis because I grew up on Greco-Roman (and Egyptian to a lesser extent) myth. The way Livy, Tacitus, Apuleius, and Suetonius write seems to me very lucid and like pure poetry. I prefer the sound of Latin and Greek to Icelandic and Old Norse. I love Greek and Roman architecture, and I prefer the realism of Greek and Roman statuary to the rigid depictions of Thor and Freyr. I like candles, I like smoke, I like the Latin liturgy. The Greco-Roman spirit also seems to me more elegant and oceanic than the rigid Celtic or Germanic. Indeed, just as Grimm says Mars, Mercury or Hercules may have sounded outlandish to the Germans, I don't feel as at home with the names of Celtic and Germanic gods, and find them to be frankly rustic.

Whether or not those particular Germans were worshipping Isis, Isis worship was established in Germany in the first century, and even if her primary devotees were Romans, don't be surprised if there existed also German devotees, Romanised or not. Indeed, to some extent today we are ourselves culturally Romanised.