Ali Ibn Ali - Abu Bakr

[Teutone]

Who was the rightful Khalif after Muhammad?

I really dont understand the whole conflict

[Marmara]

Shia say that Ali was chosen by Muhammad to lead Muslims after him. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad (but much younger than him), since Muhammad didn't have any son, he was considered the legit heir to Muhammad's position.

Most muslims didn't agree, they called for a Shura, the leading men gathered and elected Abu Bakr.

There was no war, Ali accepted his Caliphdom.

[TheMaestro]

Es tut mir lied

[Teutone]

Shia say that Ali was chosen by Muhammad to lead Muslims after him. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad (but much younger than him), since Muhammad didn't have any son, he was considered the legit heir to Muhammad's position.

Most muslims didn't agree, they called for a Shura, the leading men gathered and elected Abu Bakr.

There was no war, Ali accepted his Caliphdom.

So Ali historically never was the khalif?

Is this factual or a matter of interpretation?

I mean isnt the whole SHIA faith based upon Ali as the rightful khalif?

[Marmara]

So Ali historically never was the khalif?

Is this factual or a matter of interpretation?

I mean isnt the whole SHIA faith based upon Ali as the rightful khalif?

Ali became the 4th Caliph after Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

There was no Sunni-Shia divison, but there were fanatics of Ali.

Sunni Shia division appeared after Ali's assassination and murder of his children, beginning of Ummayyad Caliphate.

[Böri]

There was no struggle at era of Abu Bakr.
Struggle starts after 3rd caliph Uthman from Umayya family is murdered by Egyptian converts Coptes. Ali became Caliph after Uthman.
Uthman's relatives (Muawiyya, governor of Damascus) blamed Ali of not trying to hunt down the murderers. That escalated and turned into conflict between Ali and his army versus Umayyad supported also by Muhammad's wife Aisha.

At Siffin battle, when Ali army was winning, the Umayyad army made cunning move. They took Quran pages and put them on top of their swords. Ali army didn't want to cross swords and cut the Quran pages. Ali failed to remove Umayyad forces.

Later things were settled, but it escalated to incredible levels after Ali's son Hussain was decapitated by Umayyad forces sent by Muawiya's son Yazid. Muslims split forever and never united again. Umayyads seized power and established huge empire from India to France.

[Teutone]

Ali became the 4th Caliph after Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

There was no Sunni-Shia divison, but there were fanatics of Ali.

Sunni Shia division appeared after Ali's assassination and murder of his children, beginning of Ummayyad Caliphate.

Who assassinated alis family?

[Teutone]

There was no struggle at era of Abu Bakr.
Struggle starts after 3rd caliph Uthman from Umayya family is murdered by Egyptian converts Coptes. Ali became Caliph after Uthman.
Uthman's relatives (Muawiyya, governor of Damascus) blamed Ali of not trying to hunt down the murderers. That escalated and turned into conflict between Ali and his army versus Umayyad supported also by Muhammad's wife Aisha.

At Siffin battle, when Ali army was winning, the Umayyad army made cunning move. They took Quran pages and put them on top of their swords. Ali army didn't want to cross swords and cut the Quran pages. Ali failed to remove Umayyad forces.

Later things were settled, but it escalated to incredible levels after Ali's son Hussain was decapitated by Umayyad forces sent by Muawiya's son Yazid. Muslims split forever and never united again. Umayyads seized power and established huge empire from India to France.

When and for what reason did shia islam occured?

[Marmara]

Who assassinated alis family?

Khwarijs assassinated Ali but his children were murdered by Yazid, son of Muaviya. It's was a war of throne basically. Muaviya and his family basically won the war and became the Ummayyad dynasty. Ali's supporters got fanaticized and started to see him a divine being.

[Vojnik]

Abu Bakr was the father of Muhammad's favourite wife and child bride Aisha. There was also the Battle of the camel, which was between Ibn Ali and Aisha.

To be honest: Who gives a fuck besides Muslims on who was the rightful successor to Mohammad. All rubbish anyway.

[Teutone]

Khwarijs assassinated Ali but his children were murdered by Yazid, son of Muaviya. It's was a war of throne basically. Muaviya and his family basically won the war and became the Ummayyad dynasty. Ali's supporters got fanaticized and started to see him a divine being.

Is the difference of Shia and Sunni Islam only defined by this conflict?

[Marmara]

Abu Bakr was the father of Muhammad's favourite wife and child bride Aisha. There was also the Battle of the camel, which was between Ibn Ali and Aisha.

To be honest: Who gives a fuck besides Muslims on who was the rightful successor to Mohammad. All rubbish anyway.

Nobody really argues about it anymore though, besides, Ali is considered a rightful Caliph and a respectable leader by Sunnis. Major division is that Shias now believe Ali's divinity, which Sunnis find it Shirk.

[Marmara]

Is the difference of Shia and Sunni Islam only defined by this conflict?

No, this is the start of division, later some theological differences are built upon, to an extend that Sunnis started to consider Shia islam (at least some sects) hererical.

[Teutone]

No, this is the start of division, later some theological differences are built upon, to an extend that Sunnis started to consider Shia islam (at least some sects) hererical.

And vice versa?

[Böri]

Muhammad: died because of natural reasons.
Then he was followed by ''Prophet representatives'' known as Caliphs.

Most were murdered.

1st caliph Abu Bakr: died naturally.
2nd caliph Umar: murdered while praying by a Sasanian Persian who posed as Muslim
3rd caliph Uthman: murdered by convert Egyptians by fear Uthman would punish them.
4th caliph Ali: murdered while going to mosque by Kwariji Arab
5th caliph Hassan: poisoned after he gave caliphate to Muawiya willingly

Then Umayyads take caliphate with Muawiyyah and don't give it up.
Muhammad's grand son Hussain (Ali's son) challenges them but pays with his head.

[Marmara]

And vice versa?

Not really, Shia islam is not as Unified as Sunni Islam. It has been a minority sect and got developed independently in many places. Some sects of Shia islam are considered outright heretical such as Alawism. Shias in general sees Sunnis oppressive, not heretical.

[Marmara]

For instance, in Ottoman Empire, Janissaries belonged to Shia Bektashi order, but Ottomans hated Alevis (different than Alawis) with passion and considered heretical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bektashi_Order

[Teutone]

Thank you guys for clerification, highly appriciate it!

[Böri]

For instance, in Ottoman Empire, Janissaries belonged to Shia Bektashi order, but Ottomans hated Alevis (different than Alawis) with passion.

Bektashi was Sufism with a more-Shia-than-Sunni leaning. That isnt like Twelver Jafarism. First Ottomans themselves were Bektashis too. Ottomans truly became Sunnis because Ismail Safavid somewhat forced them.

[Vojnik]

Is the difference of Shia and Sunni Islam only defined by this conflict?

The hadiths they follow are also different. For example, Shias dont follow the 5 main Sunni sahihs. For example Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

I'd assume you know, but id explain anyway. Hadiths are a collection of literature that have within them, the sunah (tradition) of Muhammad (supposedly). Even though they were written 200 years after Muhammad's death. They are used to interpret the Quran.

[Marmara]

Bektashi was Sufism with a more-Shia-than-Sunni leaning. That isnt like Twelver Jafarism. First Ottomans themselves were Bektashis too. Ottomans truly became Sunnis because Ismail Safavid somewhat forced them.

I highly doubt Ottomans were Bektashi. First Turks were ignorant about religion, they didn't know what sect to follow not even how to pray, so they were influenced by all sorts of preachers, Sunni Shia or Sufi.

[Vojnik]

I highly doubt Ottomans were Bektashi. First Turks were ignorant about religion, they didn't know what sect to follow not even how to pray, so they were influenced by all sorts of preachers, Sunni Shia or Sufi.

See i thought the first Ottomans were part of the Sufi branch.

[Böri]

I highly doubt Ottomans were Bektashi. First Turks were ignorant about religion, they didn't know what sect to follow not even how to pray, so they were influenced by all sorts of preachers, Sunni Shia or Sufi.

That's what Halil İnalcık says, I think that can be true they were Bektashis. Janissary corps being established by Bektashi sheikhs in late 14th century is an indication. There is always shadow of question mark ofc. First Ottomans were just superficially Muslims. They were nomads. Nomads by nature and lifestyle couldn't practice a religious lifestyle. Many things were later religion-washed. Even name in fact.

Ottomans later said their father was Uthman (Osman). However, contemporary Byzantine sources, like Pechymeres, talks about him as Atman while Byzantines have always recorded the Arabs with Osman name as 'Uthman'.

Someone with his father as Ertuğrul and son Orkhan (non-Muslim Turkic names), having an Arabic name Uthman/Osman makes actually little sense.

Atman's name has been Islamicized later most likely to make Ottoman supremacy accept better to Arabs and other religious people?

[Marmara]

See i thought the first Ottomans were part of the Sufi branch.

No, Ottomans weren't Sufis, but Sufis established a base in Konya during Seljuk era and Turkish Islam is influenced by it. Still Ottomans weren't Sufis, they didn't belong in any Tariqah.

[Böri]

Ottomans started their first madrasas in 1330's during Orkhan's reign and those madrasas were more Hanafi order style (Sunni), they carried on tradition of Seljuks who were Hanafi Sunni champions of Islam. However, it was 100 years after they came from central Asia. Sufism was stronger among nomads who were in the Yesevi school of Sufism (Bektashism also from that line) and Sunnism among the settled folk. The strong presence of Bektashism, that it was official sect of Janissaries, and removed together with Janissaries in 19th century puts question mark. In fact the religion changed after Caliphate came in 16th century from the Arab world. Bektashis were also arabized with time. But it might be that Seljuks of Konya asked them to adopt Sunni ways when Ottomans started as their clients.
There are question marks about that process.

[dark-mysterio]

Muhammad: died because of natural reasons.
Then he was followed by ''Prophet representatives'' known as Caliphs.

Most were murdered.

1st caliph Abu Bakr: died naturally.
2nd caliph Umar: murdered while praying by a Sasanian Persian who posed as Muslim
3rd caliph Uthman: murdered by convert Egyptians by fear Uthman would punish them.
4th caliph Ali: murdered while going to mosque by Kwariji Arab
5th caliph Hassan: poisoned after he gave caliphate to Muawiya willingly

Then Umayyads take caliphate with Muawiyyah and don't give it up.
Muhammad's grand son Hussain (Ali's son) challenges them but pays with his head.

"died because of natural reasons"

isn't there was a story where Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewish women ?

[Böri]

"died because of natural reasons"

isn't there was a story where Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewish women ?

That's not true. According to a report, Jewish woman tried to poison him during his lifetime but that failed.

[StonyArabia]

Is the difference of Shia and Sunni Islam only defined by this conflict?

No, Shiaism might have started as a political movement but it eventually developed more theological differences. Shiaism developed in Yemen and then it crystallized in Iraq, and then it developed into many sub-sects and off sects. Shiaism was mostly in Arab phenomenon, and hence the rise of the Fatamid Caliphate, however Shiaism would diminish due to the arrival of the Seljuk Turks in the region. The Seljuk Turks would take on Persian culture, and thus would be rivals to the Fatamid Caliphate. Despite the Fatamid's being almost always victorious against the Seljuk Turks, also some Berber tribes like the Zirids would revolt against the Fatamids and would choose Sunnism, and finally after the Fatamid demise, comes the Ayyubids who would encourage Sunnism to be placed in Egypt and North Africa, and after the Ayyubids, the Mamlukes would also encourage the rise of Arabic language and Sunnism in the region. There was also Christianity once again growing in Egypt, but the Mamlukes would finish this off, and they also would wage war against Shia communities in the Levant. The Mamlukes would also destroy the last Christian stronghold in Northern Africa, in what's now modern day Sudan.

Thus Sunnism became the most dominant faith in the Arab world. However some pockets of Shias were still present in Lebanon and Bahrain, and it's original homeland Yemen. It would be not until the 15th century that the Safavids, would introduce Shiaism in Iran and would make it a political movement to be contended with Sunnism. However it would spread due to the influence of southern Lebanese sheikhs. However the Safavid adoption of Shiaism so that Persia would not be sucked in by the Uzbeks or Ottomans.

However none of these dynasties can compare to the glory, bravery, and strength of the Ummyad dynasty, which empire grew from the borders of China and India all the way to Southern France. However it would eventually be replaced by the Abbassid dynasty which also a great dynasty, but the problem they became to weak in the later years, well the Ummyads were really never weak and were strong. Then followed by the Shia Fatamids, which was quite sophisticated and tolerant nothing like the Persian Safavid dynasty, showing that Arab Shiaism was a refined movement unlike the Persianized Shiaism we see today.

[aafiak]

You can find different history in different books.
They were all respectful for us because Allah SWT chooses them to be the companion of Muhammad S.A.W in his life.
History has been written by humans & I would love to stick with Allah SWT decision rather than human history.

[Nattens Madrigal]

I came from Alevi background so Ali is rightful Caliph and incarnation of Muhammed.
jk I don't care about bedouin Arabs internal fights.