Northern shift does not always mean lighter pigmentation. Am I right?

[cyberlorian]

If that was the case,
North Italians would be darker pigmented than Spaniards.
Amerindians would be lighter pigmented than French.
Germans would be darker pigmented than Ukrainians.
etc.
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V4.png

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

[Lauχum]

All 3 of those examples were rather poor, and you're failing to see the main source of depigmentation, Steppe ancestry.
1. Spaniards and North Italians have basically the same level of steppe ancestry, the main difference is increased WHG in Spaniards and increased Caucaso-Anatolian admixture North Italians, which is why Spaniards plot closer to NW Euros.
2. Amerindians have no steppe ancestry and are basically a mix of Palaeolithic Siberians (ANE) who migrated East and Mongoloid populations from East Asia, and this mixing event happened way before the existence of depigmentation so of course they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Meanwhile French (excluding southern French) have 35-40% Yamnaya-related ancestry, so it makes complete sense for French to be lighter than Amerindians.
3. Ukrainians and Germans also have similar levels of steppe/Yamnaya-like ancestry. Ukrainians have higher excess Eastern European Hunter Gatherer-like ancestry and less Farmer related ancestry than germans. Hence why Ukrainians shift further from Sardinians than Germans.

Though yes you are correct generally depigmentation correlates quite strongly with Steppe/Yamnaya-related ancestry though this correlation is not perfect due to the variation of phenotypical selection in populations.

[Jana]

Germans are not darker than Ukrainians.

[Jana]

Btw, Yamnanya had southern european pigmentation with brown hair and eyes. They arent responsible for depigmentation despite being super northern genetically.

Corded Ware was blond and nordic like, they are better candidate for light traits in Europeans.

[cyberlorian]

All 3 of those examples were rather poor, and you're failing to see the main source of depigmentation, Steppe ancestry.
1. Spaniards and North Italians have basically the same level of steppe ancestry, the main difference is increased WHG in Spaniards and increased Caucaso-Anatolian admixture North Italians, which is why Spaniards plot closer to NW Euros.
2. Amerindians have no steppe ancestry and are basically a mix of Palaeolithic Siberians (ANE) who migrated East and Mongoloid populations from East Asia, and this mixing event happened way before the existence of depigmentation so of course they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Meanwhile French (excluding southern French) have 35-40% Yamnaya-related ancestry, so it makes complete sense for French to be lighter than Amerindians.
3. Ukrainians and Germans also have similar levels of steppe/Yamnaya-like ancestry. Ukrainians have higher excess Eastern European Hunter Gatherer-like ancestry and less Farmer related ancestry than germans. Hence why Ukrainians shift further from Sardinians than Germans.

Though yes you are correct generally depigmentation correlates quite strongly with Steppe/Yamnaya-related ancestry though this correlation is not perfect due to the variation of phenotypical selection in populations.

I have always associated Hunter Gatherers with Cromagnids and associated Steppe people with East Mediterranids and East Nordids. Is it true?

[cyberlorian]

Btw, Yamnanya had southern european pigmentation with brown hair and eyes. They arent responsible for depigmentation despite being super northern genetically.

Corded Ware was blond and nordic like, they are better candidate for light traits in Europeans.

Yes. I have always associated Steppe people with East Nordid but also East Mediterranid phenotypes.

[Lauχum]

Btw, Yamnanya had southern european pigmentation with brown hair and eyes. They arent responsible for depigmentation despite being super northern genetically.

Corded Ware was blond and nordic like, they are better candidate for light traits in Europeans.

Indeed but their late bronze age descendants (Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, etc.) did have blondeism. So Yamnaya-related/Steppe admixture still highly correlates with depigmentation and Steppe peoples are responsible for its high frequencies in Northern Europe.

[Jana]

Indeed but their late bronze age descendants (Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, etc.) did have blondeism. So Yamnaya-related/Steppe admixture still highly correlates with depigmentation and Steppe peoples are responsible for its high frequencies in Northern Europe.

But what did cause that Yamnanya descendant cultures were much lighter than the parent culture ? I think this remains the mystery. They were genetically not far from each other. Perhaps Corded ware and Bell Beaker had less CHG ancestry that is almost half in Yamnanya and responsible for brunet traits.

And do not forget paternal direct descendants of Yamnanya are Greeks, Albanians and Armenians (R1b L23) who are brunet themself.

[cyberlorian]

--

[Agyullámtörő]

All 3 of those examples were rather poor, and you're failing to see the main source of depigmentation, Steppe ancestry.
1. Spaniards and North Italians have basically the same level of steppe ancestry, the main difference is increased WHG in Spaniards and increased Caucaso-Anatolian admixture North Italians, which is why Spaniards plot closer to NW Euros.
2. Amerindians have no steppe ancestry and are basically a mix of Palaeolithic Siberians (ANE) who migrated East and Mongoloid populations from East Asia, and this mixing event happened way before the existence of depigmentation so of course they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Meanwhile French (excluding southern French) have 35-40% Yamnaya-related ancestry, so it makes complete sense for French to be lighter than Amerindians.
3. Ukrainians and Germans also have similar levels of steppe/Yamnaya-like ancestry. Ukrainians have higher excess Eastern European Hunter Gatherer-like ancestry and less Farmer related ancestry than germans. Hence why Ukrainians shift further from Sardinians than Germans.

Though yes you are correct generally depigmentation correlates quite strongly with Steppe/Yamnaya-related ancestry though this correlation is not perfect due to the variation of phenotypical selection in populations.

The Y haplogroup I1 (pre-germanic) originated in Scandinavia 27000 years ago. I1 is found not only among Germans but also among natives of Austria, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, and Denmark.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
We know from autosomal studies, German ancestry derives primarily from North Europe and only in small amounts (r1a) from East Europe (Yamna). It seems probable that early migrations (Bronze Age) from r1b population affected the whole country. This haplogroup (r1b) is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards. Modern germans are decedants of Pre-Germanic natives and those Middle Eastern r1b farmers who colonized this Area.

The blonde hair is ancient Finno-Ugric ancestry not IE, the first blonde people who have found was Finno-Ugric from Siberia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora
The largest part of Scandinavia, East Europe, Central Asia, West Siberia were Finno-Ugric (Uralic):
http://i.imgur.com/27B5wGK.jpg
The northern slavic and germanic peoples are partly descendants of native Finno-Ugric population (that's why lot of them are blonde). These Slavic and Germanic tribes have since been assimilated into the local Finno-Ugric peoples in which they migrated and settled.

[Jana]

If Steppe components were the only responsibles of lighter pigmentation,
Bosnians would have been darker than North Caucasians.
Italians would be darker than Turks.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Yamna-admixture.png

Bosnians have more steppe ancestry than North Caucasians. What are you talking about ?

[cyberlorian]

Bosnians have more steppe ancestry than North Caucasians. What are you talking about ?

But the map shows the other way around. :confused:

[Jana]

The Y haplogroup I1 (pre-germanic) originated in Scandinavia 27000 years ago. I1 is found not only among Germans but also among natives of Austria, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, and Denmark.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml
We know from autosomal studies, German ancestry derives primarily from North Europe and only in small amounts (r1a) from East Europe (Yamna). It seems probable that early migrations (Bronze Age) from r1b population affected the whole country. This haplogroup (r1b) is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards. Modern germans are decedants of Pre-Germanic natives and those Middle Eastern r1b farmers who colonized this Area.

The blonde hair is ancient Finno-Ugric ancestry not IE, the first blonde people who have found was Finno-Ugric from Siberia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora
The largest part of Scandinavia, East Europe, Central Asia, West Siberia were Finno-Ugric (Uralic):
http://i.imgur.com/27B5wGK.jpg
The northern slavic and germanic peoples are partly descendants of native Finno-Ugric population (that's why lot of them are blonde). These Slavic and Germanic tribes have since been assimilated into the local Finno-Ugric peoples in which they migrated and settled.

Are you aware that proto Uralic N haplogroup comes from neolithic China ? I doubt they were blond.

R1b isnt middle eastern marker neither were first oldest r1b samples genetically mena, I dont know who is spreading such misinformation.

[Jana]

But the map shows the other way around. :confused:

Which map ?

[cyberlorian]

Indeed but their late bronze age descendants (Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, etc.) did have blondeism. So Yamnaya-related/Steppe admixture still highly correlates with depigmentation and Steppe peoples are responsible for its high frequencies in Northern Europe.


Which map ?

Oh, I guess you cannot see because it is taken from Eupedia, which someone needs to register in order to see the pictures inside the threads. :)

This map:

https://image.ibb.co/h58cVp/Yamna_admixture.png

[Jana]

Oh, I guess you cannot see because it is taken from Eupedia, which someone needs to register in order to see the pictures inside the threads. :)

This map:

https://image.ibb.co/h58cVp/Yamna_admixture.png

There is no accurate gedmatch calculator for steppe ancestry to my knowlwdge. But map looks fine actually, because balts have most steppe ancestry indeed.

I just dont know why Bosnia is split in two colors when it is genetically homogenous.

[Lauχum]

But what did cause that Yamnanya descendant cultures were much lighter than the parent culture ? I think this remains the mystery. They were genetically not far from each other. Perhaps Corded ware and Bell Beaker had less CHG ancestry that is almost half in Yamnanya and responsible for brunet traits.

And do not forget paternal direct descendants of Yamnanya are Greeks, Albanians and Armenians (R1b L23) who are brunet themself.

Genetiker who does pigmentation predictions for ancient samples found that the Pre-Kurgan Globular Amphora Culture samples were overwhelmingly blonde and blue eyed, which is very surprising for a Neolithic population who are generally void of light types (like modern Sardinians). So some have theorised that when early CWC mixed with the GAC that they adopted these traits, and then I guess Bell Beakers acquired these traits as well because either they were descended from an R1b segment of the CWC or experienced female mediated gene flow from them.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/

Another explanation could be that because of the Yamnayans being almost exclusively sampled from the Volga-Samara region, they were not a good representation of the Yamnayans who moved into Europe and then their descendants later back east into Central Asia. Genetiker also predicted Khvalynsk and Copper Age Ukraine to have blondeism.

I guess more samples will clear this dilemma up. We will just have to wait and see.

[Token]

But what did cause that Yamnanya descendant cultures were much lighter than the parent culture ? I think this remains the mystery. They were genetically not far from each other. Perhaps Corded ware and Bell Beaker had less CHG ancestry that is almost half in Yamnanya and responsible for brunet traits.

And do not forget paternal direct descendants of Yamnanya are Greeks, Albanians and Armenians (R1b L23) who are brunet themself.

This is not a mystery anymore. Yamnaya mixed with Globular Amphora during their expansion to the west, consquently every Yamnaya descended culture also got a good chunk of GAC ancestry, including Sintashta and Andronovo. GAC was a outlier among farmers in terms of pigmentation, they were as fair as modern Northern Europeans according to their pigmentation calls. Yamnaya didn't absorbed GAC during their earlier expansion to Afanasevo, and guess what: they were dark pigmented just like their forefathers. Ironically, everything points to Globular Amphora farmers as a source for light pigmentation.

[Agyullámtörő]

"Are you aware that proto Uralic N haplogroup comes from neolithic China ? I doubt they were blond."

Yes 23000 years ago, but that means nothing. Ireland have 81% r1b (Middle Eastern haplogroup) but it doesn't mean that irish peoples are dark skinned. The Proto Finno-Ugrics were blonde light skinned peoples with a little bit asiatic siberian influence.
Typical ancient Finno-Ugric faces:
http://www.nat-geo.ru/upload/iblock/7ee/7ee5753e193904ace248eba2f842f8fd.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/7a/f6/f67af6c0b5ae4dd96de6b803c80712e5.jpg
https://www.newsko.ru/media/1511029/natsionalnyy-kostyum.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/64/59/4c/64594c65ecff577147ccd1338ff69710.jpg
https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/v1508490193/presidenttivaalit18_laura_huhtasaari_kuva_yle_lknm tl.jpg

[Agyullámtörő]

"R1b isnt middle eastern marker"

It is a Middle Eastern haplogroup:

"The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Lauχum]

But the map shows the other way around. :confused:

Bosnians and Italians (excluding Sardinians) have higher Yamnaya ancestry than Turks and North Caucasians. Take a look at these Yamnaya scores:

"distance%=2.9963"
Avar
Armenia_ChL,67
Yamnaya_Samara,17.2
CHG,13.8
Mongola,2

"distance%=3.3393"
North_Ossetian
Armenia_ChL,69.6
CHG,17
Mongola,6.8
Yamnaya_Samara,6.6

"distance%=2.9415"
Balkar
Armenia_ChL,70
CHG,12.8
Yamnaya_Samara,10
Mongola,7.2

"distance%=2.9638"
Chechen
Armenia_ChL,71.4
CHG,13.8
Yamnaya_Samara,11.2
Mongola,3.6

"distance%=3.1221"
Adygei
Armenia_ChL,72.8
CHG,13.6
Yamnaya_Samara,8.2
Mongola,4.4
WHG,1

"distance%=2.0354"
Turkish_Adana
Anatolia_ChL,50.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,21.8
Levant_BA,9.4
Yamnaya_Samara,8.6
Mongola,7.6
Iron_Gates_HG,2.2
Barcin_N,0

"distance%=2.7531"
Turkish_Aydin
Anatolia_ChL,45.8
Seh_Gabi_ChL,17.8
Mongola,11.6
Yamnaya_Samara,10.4
Levant_BA,7.8
Iron_Gates_HG,4.2
Barcin_N,2.4

"distance%=2.8182"
Turkish_Balikesir
Anatolia_ChL,48.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,15
Mongola,13
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Iron_Gates_HG,4.6
Levant_BA,4.2
Barcin_N,3.2

"distance%=2.0786"
Turkish_Istanbul
Anatolia_ChL,52.2
Seh_Gabi_ChL,14.2
Yamnaya_Samara,13
Mongola,6.8
Levant_BA,5
Iron_Gates_HG,4.8
Barcin_N,4

"distance%=1.9361"
Turkish_Kayseri
Anatolia_ChL,52.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,22.6
Levant_BA,8.6
Yamnaya_Samara,7.8
Mongola,6.8
Iron_Gates_HG,1.8
Barcin_N,0

North and Central Italians score in the 20-30 range for Yamnaya ancestry, and Bosnians much higher. Even South Italians score in the high teens which is higher for all of these groups aside from Avars.

[Lauχum]

Here are models of Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Tuscan:

"distance%=1.896"
Italian_Bergamo
Beaker_Central_Europe,61.8
Anatolia_BA,19.4
Barcin_N,18.2
Levant_BA,0.6

"distance%=1.102"
Italian_Tuscan
Beaker_Central_Europe,51
Anatolia_BA,36.6
Barcin_N,8.6
Levant_BA,3.8

Beaker Central Europe is about half Yamnaya:

"distance%=2.0402"
Beaker_Central_Europe
Yamnaya_Samara,49
LBK_N,40.6
Loschbour,10.4

So Bergamo is about 30.3% Yamnaya,
and (south) Tuscany about 25% Yamnaya.

[Token]

Here are models of Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Tuscan:

"distance%=1.896"
Italian_Bergamo
Beaker_Central_Europe,61.8
Anatolia_BA,19.4
Barcin_N,18.2
Levant_BA,0.6

"distance%=1.102"
Italian_Tuscan
Beaker_Central_Europe,51
Anatolia_BA,36.6
Barcin_N,8.6
Levant_BA,3.8

Beaker Central Europe is about half Yamnaya:

"distance%=2.0402"
Beaker_Central_Europe
Yamnaya_Samara,49
LBK_N,40.6
Loschbour,10.4

So Bergamo is about 30.3% Yamnaya,
and (south) Tuscany about 25% Yamnaya.

Venetians and Friulians would be around 35% i guess?

[Lauχum]

Venetians and Friulians would be around 35% i guess?

Excluding Venetians from Verona and Rovigo, then yeah Venetians, Ladins and Friulians should be approaching the mid 30s based on these models if the GEDmatch results we have seen so far are accurate. It'd be great if we could get heaps more formal samples from Italy for me to play around with on nMonte and Past3.

[Jana]

"Are you aware that proto Uralic N haplogroup comes from neolithic China ? I doubt they were blond."

Yes 23000 years ago, but that means nothing. Ireland have 81% r1b (Middle Eastern haplogroup) but it doesn't mean that irish peoples are dark skinned. The Proto Finno-Ugrics were blonde light skinned peoples with a little bit asiatic siberian influence.
Typical ancient Finno-Ugric faces:
http://www.nat-geo.ru/upload/iblock/7ee/7ee5753e193904ace248eba2f842f8fd.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/7a/f6/f67af6c0b5ae4dd96de6b803c80712e5.jpg
https://www.newsko.ru/media/1511029/natsionalnyy-kostyum.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/64/59/4c/64594c65ecff577147ccd1338ff69710.jpg
https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/v1508490193/presidenttivaalit18_laura_huhtasaari_kuva_yle_lknm tl.jpg

Again Irish R1b is steppe IE marker not mena and they have high steppe ancestry.

There is non IE R1b branch that is ancient in Europe and now most common in Africa, but 99 percent of modern European R1b is IE.

All R ultimately comes from altay, and r1b probably had more southern expansion trough west asia compared to r1a but that is geographic not genetic origin.

Middle easterners are mostly natufian and neolitic descending from E and J lineages.

FU people are indeed very fair today, but we dont know how the originals looked like. Depigmentation probably does not relate to any specific meta ethnicity but sexual selection in norheastern Europe where several linguistic families lived including finno ugrics .

[brennus dux gallorum]

All 3 of those examples were rather poor, and you're failing to see the main source of depigmentation, Steppe ancestry.
1. Spaniards and North Italians have basically the same level of steppe ancestry, the main difference is increased WHG in Spaniards and increased Caucaso-Anatolian admixture North Italians, which is why Spaniards plot closer to NW Euros.
2. Amerindians have no steppe ancestry and are basically a mix of Palaeolithic Siberians (ANE) who migrated East and Mongoloid populations from East Asia, and this mixing event happened way before the existence of depigmentation so of course they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Meanwhile French (excluding southern French) have 35-40% Yamnaya-related ancestry, so it makes complete sense for French to be lighter than Amerindians.
3. Ukrainians and Germans also have similar levels of steppe/Yamnaya-like ancestry. Ukrainians have higher excess Eastern European Hunter Gatherer-like ancestry and less Farmer related ancestry than germans. Hence why Ukrainians shift further from Sardinians than Germans.

Though yes you are correct generally depigmentation correlates quite strongly with Steppe/Yamnaya-related ancestry though this correlation is not perfect due to the variation of phenotypical selection in populations.

Then how do you explain darker colors among Irish, when they have more steppe ancestry than almost all northern Europeans?

[Lauχum]

Then how do you explain darker colors among Irish, when they have more steppe ancestry than almost all northern Europeans?

Exactly why I said in that comment blondeism and steppe ancestry are not a perfect correlation. I have been thinking about that though. Perhaps the Bell beakers had lower frequencies of blondeism, but blondeism became very common in Bell Beaker-CWC mixed Scandinavia due to the founder effect/population bottlenecks due to relative geographic isolation, thus when Germanic peoples began migrating into other parts of NW Europe they rapidly increased the frequencies of blondeism in places like England, northern Germany and the Benelux region. Whilst places which remained overwhelmingly Beaker derived like Ireland and Wales retained the iconically Celtic "dark hair and light eyes" look.

This is just pure speculation though, it may just be a unique selective process on the British Isles.

[Agyullámtörő]

"Again Irish R1b is steppe IE marker not mena and they have high steppe ancestry."

Nope, the dominant steppe IE marker was r1a:
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png
Irish peoples have nothing to do with Steppe, they are west european celts.

"There is non IE R1b branch that is ancient in Europe and now most common in Africa, but 99 percent of modern European R1b is IE."

Yes in Cameroon and Nigeria, the local male population have very distant IE origins, the largest part of Middle East was Indo-European: hittites, greeks, persians, the R1a and R1b are 100% IE markers from West Asia. Origin place of R1b = Anatolia, North Mesopothamia, Origin place of R1a = Central Asia.

"Middle easterners are mostly natufian and neolitic descending from E and J lineages."

Yes the modern Middle Easternes, that's called arab colonization.

"FU people are indeed very fair today, but we dont know how the originals looked like. Depigmentation probably does not relate to any specific meta ethnicity but sexual selection in norheastern Europe where several linguistic families lived including finno ugrics ."

FU peoples? By the way South Scandinavia was Proto-Germanic, North Scandinavia was Proto Finno-Ugric.

[Aren]

If that was the case,
North Italians would be darker pigmented than Spaniards.
Amerindians would be lighter pigmented than French.
Germans would be darker pigmented than Ukrainians.
etc.
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V4.png

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

Are we viewing the same PCA? Northern shifted means shifted towards the Balitc and North Sea components, Amerindians are nowhere as close to them as the French are.

[Aren]

Here are models of Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Tuscan:

"distance%=1.896"
Italian_Bergamo
Beaker_Central_Europe,61.8
Anatolia_BA,19.4
Barcin_N,18.2
Levant_BA,0.6

"distance%=1.102"
Italian_Tuscan
Beaker_Central_Europe,51
Anatolia_BA,36.6
Barcin_N,8.6
Levant_BA,3.8

Beaker Central Europe is about half Yamnaya:

"distance%=2.0402"
Beaker_Central_Europe
Yamnaya_Samara,49
LBK_N,40.6
Loschbour,10.4

So Bergamo is about 30.3% Yamnaya,
and (south) Tuscany about 25% Yamnaya.

Interesting the high Anatolia BA in North Italians, it's present in all of Southern Europe, including Iberia and reaches low but significant levels in Poland, Ukraine and other parts of central Europe but absent in the Northwest and the far Northeast. Wonder what kind of movements that brought this more Basal/Levantine shifted admix to these parts of Europe?

[Pahli]

Interesting the high Anatolia BA in North Italians, it's present in all of Southern Europe, including Iberia and reaches low but significant levels in Poland, Ukraine and other parts of central Europe but absent in the Northwest and the far Northeast. Wonder what kind of movements that brought this more Basal/Levantine shifted admix to these parts of Europe?

Neolithic Anatolians and their migration to Europe? They brought farming with them as well, but it seems like Baltic people and Finnish people have low amounts of this, they were probably isolated from these migration til very late.

[Lauχum]

Interesting the high Anatolia BA in North Italians, it's present in all of Southern Europe, including Iberia and reaches low but significant levels in Poland, Ukraine and other parts of central Europe but absent in the Northwest and the far Northeast. Wonder what kind of movements that brought this more Basal/Levantine shifted admix to these parts of Europe?

One of the North Italian Beakers scores a lot of Anatolian ancestry, there is also the Sicilian Beaker (which unfortunately is quite low quality and doesn't produce very good fits) from Oalde et al 2018 which shifts heavily towards West Asia/Anatolia_BA. So I bet a lot of it came into Italy during the Bronze Age:

"distance%=3.5368"
Beaker_Northern_Italy:I1979
Anatolia_BA,39.8
Barcin_N,32.6
Beaker_Central_Europe,16.8
WHG,10.8
Levant_BA,0

"distance%=5.3887"
Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe
Barcin_N,52
Anatolia_BA,42.2
WHG,5.8

Whats interesting though is that the other 2 North Italian beakers (one Iberian like and one Sardinian like), do not have this ancestry, and form a neat cline with the Northern European Beakers. Only I1979 deviates from the cline, so it looks like both Anatolians/West Asians and Steppites were coming into Northern Italy at the end of the 3rd Millennium BC.
79060

[Aren]

Neolithic Anatolians and their migration to Europe? They brought farming with them as well, but it seems like Baltic people and Finnish people have low amounts of this, they were probably isolated from these migration til very late.
No, Barcin represents the first Neolithic farmers who reached Europe. NW Europeans and Balts only require Barcin-like input when modelled. And Balts have significant amount of this, around 25% if not more.
Other Europeans score signifcant amount of Anatolia_BA which is quite different from the Barcin samples(more Iran_N and more Levantine farmer)

One of the North Italian Beakers scores a lot of Anatolian ancestry, there is also the Sicilian Beaker (which unfortunately is quite low quality and doesn't produce very good fits) from Oalde et al 2018 which shifts heavily towards West Asia/Anatolia_BA. So I bet a lot of it came into Italy during the Bronze Age:

"distance%=3.5368"
Beaker_Northern_Italy:I1979
Anatolia_BA,39.8
Barcin_N,32.6
Beaker_Central_Europe,16.8
WHG,10.8
Levant_BA,0

"distance%=5.3887"
Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe
Barcin_N,52
Anatolia_BA,42.2
WHG,5.8
Yeah probably Bronze Age movements but most Central European Bronze Age samples lack it. I guess South of the Alpes it's much older.

[Pahli]

No, Barcin represents the first Neolithic farmers who reached Europe. NW Europeans and Balts only require Barcin-like input when modelled. And Balts have significant amount of this, around 25% if not more.
Other Europeans score signifcant amount of Anatolia_BA which is quite different from the Barcin samples(more Iran_N and more Levantine farmer)

Yeah probably Bronze Age movements but most Central European Bronze Age samples lack it. I guess South of the Alpes it's much older.

Got gedmatch kit of Barcin_N?

[Aren]

Got gedmatch kit of Barcin_N?

This is one of several who got uploaded to Gedmatch. They are all similar, around 50-55% West Med 35% East Med and the rest North Atlantic with very little Red Sea

Kit: M735763
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 51.94
2 East_Med 36.47
3 North_Atlantic 11.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 16.02
2 Algerian_Jewish 29.04
3 Italian_Jewish 30.49
4 South_Italian 30.81
5 West_Sicilian 31.14
6 Sephardic_Jewish 32.49
7 East_Sicilian 32.57
8 Tuscan 32.95
9 Central_Greek 33.17
10 Ashkenazi 33.54
11 Libyan_Jewish 33.63
12 Tunisian_Jewish 33.69
13 Tunisian 34.67
14 Italian_Abruzzo 34.75
15 Moroccan 34.88
16 North_Italian 35
17 Mozabite_Berber 35.21
18 Cyprian 35.41
19 Algerian 35.42
20 Greek_Thessaly 35.51

[Jana]

"Again Irish R1b is steppe IE marker not mena and they have high steppe ancestry."

Nope, the dominant steppe IE marker was r1a:
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Asia.png
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png
Irish peoples have nothing to do with Steppe, they are west european celts.

"There is non IE R1b branch that is ancient in Europe and now most common in Africa, but 99 percent of modern European R1b is IE."

Yes in Cameroon and Nigeria, the local male population have very distant IE origins, the largest part of Middle East was Indo-European: hittites, greeks, persians, the R1a and R1b are 100% IE markers from West Asia. Origin place of R1b = Anatolia, North Mesopothamia, Origin place of R1a = Central Asia.

"Middle easterners are mostly natufian and neolitic descending from E and J lineages."

Yes the modern Middle Easternes, that's called arab colonization.

"FU people are indeed very fair today, but we dont know how the originals looked like. Depigmentation probably does not relate to any specific meta ethnicity but sexual selection in norheastern Europe where several linguistic families lived including finno ugrics ."

FU peoples? By the way South Scandinavia was Proto-Germanic, North Scandinavia was Proto Finno-Ugric.

No. Irish have more steppe ancestry than all Central Europeans including Hungarians in autosomal dna.
They are mostly Bell Beakrr originated who are steppe driived population.

R1b in Africa has nothing to do with Indo Europeans and it is older than IE expansion.

And to say steppe is only R1a is absolutely incorrect. Yamnanya is exclusively R1b.

[cyberlorian]

Bosnians and Italians (excluding Sardinians) have higher Yamnaya ancestry than Turks and North Caucasians. Take a look at these Yamnaya scores:

"distance%=2.9963"
Avar
Armenia_ChL,67
Yamnaya_Samara,17.2
CHG,13.8
Mongola,2

"distance%=3.3393"
North_Ossetian
Armenia_ChL,69.6
CHG,17
Mongola,6.8
Yamnaya_Samara,6.6

"distance%=2.9415"
Balkar
Armenia_ChL,70
CHG,12.8
Yamnaya_Samara,10
Mongola,7.2

"distance%=2.9638"
Chechen
Armenia_ChL,71.4
CHG,13.8
Yamnaya_Samara,11.2
Mongola,3.6

"distance%=3.1221"
Adygei
Armenia_ChL,72.8
CHG,13.6
Yamnaya_Samara,8.2
Mongola,4.4
WHG,1

"distance%=2.0354"
Turkish_Adana
Anatolia_ChL,50.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,21.8
Levant_BA,9.4
Yamnaya_Samara,8.6
Mongola,7.6
Iron_Gates_HG,2.2
Barcin_N,0

"distance%=2.7531"
Turkish_Aydin
Anatolia_ChL,45.8
Seh_Gabi_ChL,17.8
Mongola,11.6
Yamnaya_Samara,10.4
Levant_BA,7.8
Iron_Gates_HG,4.2
Barcin_N,2.4

"distance%=2.8182"
Turkish_Balikesir
Anatolia_ChL,48.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,15
Mongola,13
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Iron_Gates_HG,4.6
Levant_BA,4.2
Barcin_N,3.2

"distance%=2.0786"
Turkish_Istanbul
Anatolia_ChL,52.2
Seh_Gabi_ChL,14.2
Yamnaya_Samara,13
Mongola,6.8
Levant_BA,5
Iron_Gates_HG,4.8
Barcin_N,4

"distance%=1.9361"
Turkish_Kayseri
Anatolia_ChL,52.4
Seh_Gabi_ChL,22.6
Levant_BA,8.6
Yamnaya_Samara,7.8
Mongola,6.8
Iron_Gates_HG,1.8
Barcin_N,0

North and Central Italians score in the 20-30 range for Yamnaya ancestry, and Bosnians much higher. Even South Italians score in the high teens which is higher for all of these groups aside from Avars.

Where did you find all these data? I am interested in it. :)

[Longbowman]

Correct. Even within a population. My dad is a northern-shifted Ashkenazi but he looks Saudi or Yemeni in terms of complexion and coloration.

[Watson]

depends on other admixture. turks have steppe ancestry but other side is arabid, gypsy, levantine.

[cyberlorian]

depends on other admixture. turks have steppe ancestry but other side is arabid, gypsy, levantine.

Siktir git, götveren. :D

[Oneeye]

Genotype is a bigger picture than phenotype.

[Lauχum]

Where did you find all these data? I am interested in it. :)

Its models I did using the Eurogenes Global 25 datasheet and nMonte. Think of it as a "do it yourself" GEDmatch.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/02/unleash-power-global-25-test-drive.html

EDIT: Specifically the scaled datasheet as its the most accurate.

[Watson]

Siktir git, götveren. :D

stop responding using that orc language.

[cyberlorian]

stop responding using that orc language.

Bacını sikeyim :D

[Dick]

The Y haplogroup I1 (pre-germanic) originated in Scandinavia 27000 years ago. I1 is found not only among Germans but also among natives of Austria, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, and Denmark.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml


I1 and proud

[Cleitus]

There is no accurate gedmatch calculator for steppe ancestry to my knowlwdge. But map looks fine actually, because balts have most steppe ancestry indeed.

I just dont know why Bosnia is split in two colors when it is genetically homogenous.

No they dont, they have the least actually. Yamnaya were high in Gedrosian admixture for example. Balts, finns and proto slavs were for the most part EHG. They are high in EHG like Yamnaya people, but they also totally lack other genetical components which were present in the Yamnaya people. Slavs are swamp people not steppe people.

103357

103356

[SamuelPomper]

Yes, it doesn't mean lighter pigmentation, for example WHG were peak northern, yet they were brown skinned. Genetics just show your ancestry, doesn't predict actual hair color eye color, unless it's tested for a specific SNP/gene, but in this case, 23andme tests only the ancestry ones. That's why the neanderthals on gedmatch score african, since they're the only "ancient" pop 2 them.

[Richard Alvarez]

Yes, the most famous example would be Ashkenazi Jews who are more MENA-shifted than some swarthier Europeans.

[Geba]

Yes and no.

If we compare individuals within the same population or neighboring similar populations, the northern shifted will have a lighte pigmentation in most cases.

When we compare two different populations like one eastern European and another western European, it doesn't make sense.

[celticdragongod]

Btw, Yamnanya had southern european pigmentation with brown hair and eyes. They arent responsible for depigmentation despite being super northern genetically.

Corded Ware was blond and nordic like, they are better candidate for light traits in Europeans.

But aren't Corded Ware descended from the Yamnaya?

[celticdragongod]

I have always associated Hunter Gatherers with Cromagnids and associated Steppe people with East Mediterranids and East Nordids. Is it true?

To a large extent, the Steppe herders were descended from Eastern European Hunter Gatherers.

[celticdragongod]

But what did cause that Yamnanya descendant cultures were much lighter than the parent culture ? I think this remains the mystery. They were genetically not far from each other. Perhaps Corded ware and Bell Beaker had less CHG ancestry that is almost half in Yamnanya and responsible for brunet traits.

And do not forget paternal direct descendants of Yamnanya are Greeks, Albanians and Armenians (R1b L23) who are brunet themself.

But Greeks, Albanians and Armenians have higher levels of EEF ancestry than Northern Europeans.

[celticdragongod]

"Are you aware that proto Uralic N haplogroup comes from neolithic China ? I doubt they were blond."

Yes 23000 years ago, but that means nothing. Ireland have 81% r1b (Middle Eastern haplogroup) but it doesn't mean that irish peoples are dark skinned. The Proto Finno-Ugrics were blonde light skinned peoples with a little bit asiatic siberian influence.
Typical ancient Finno-Ugric faces:
http://www.nat-geo.ru/upload/iblock/7ee/7ee5753e193904ace248eba2f842f8fd.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/7a/f6/f67af6c0b5ae4dd96de6b803c80712e5.jpg
https://www.newsko.ru/media/1511029/natsionalnyy-kostyum.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/64/59/4c/64594c65ecff577147ccd1338ff69710.jpg
https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/v1508490193/presidenttivaalit18_laura_huhtasaari_kuva_yle_lknm tl.jpg

Where do you get this idea that R1b is Middle Eastern?

[celticdragongod]

"R1b isnt middle eastern marker"

It is a Middle Eastern haplogroup:

"The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Don't believe everything you read on Eupedia.

[celticdragongod]

Then how do you explain darker colors among Irish, when they have more steppe ancestry than almost all northern Europeans?

Irish people tend to be pale.

[Ketchup]

You are right. This is very true in many parts of Asia, specifically South Asia.

A lot of groups with "high" steppe (20-30% Steppe) in Central India are darker than those with none in South India, amongst ethnic Telugus and others like Keralites

[Valenman]

Where do you get this idea that R1b is Middle Eastern?

All haplogroups except I appeared outside Europe and formed Europe generally in the Neolithic or Bronze Age.
Except haplogroups C1 and I think H2 if I'm not mistaken

[celticdragongod]

All haplogroups except I appeared outside Europe and formed Europe generally in the Neolithic or Bronze Age.
Except haplogroups C1 and I think H2 if I'm not mistaken

I think R1b was found in Italy around 12,000 years ago but I am not aware of any research that says it came from the Middle East.