Catalans may beat Basques to independence

[Loki]

Spain: why prosperous Catalans may beat rebellious Basques to the exit (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/01/spain-catalonia-independence)

Turbulent history between region and Madrid leaves Catalans feeling ignored and wishing for autonomy

In a smart Barcelona office block this week I came across a map of a state that doesn't exist. This imaginary country has long borders and many provinces. It has history and an ancient language; a famous capital city and some of the world's best chefs. There is a sunny coast, snowy mountains and attractive islands. People come from around the world to visit. All this splendid country lacks is reality.

The Països Catalans – the Catalan lands – stretch out like a ballerina's extended leg down the Mediterranean coast from France to a toe far to the south of Spain. In an alternative history of Europe – one in which different local medieval monarchies had conquered their neighbours – Catalonia, larger than Denmark, could have become a successful member of the European Union.

The Catalans have at different times acquired the trappings of independence: a constitution in the 15th century, and a parliament, twice, in the 20th. But for the most part they have thrived or struggled in Spain. Prosperity has been some compensation for a sense of cultural injustice that like all nationalism draws its power from emotion as much as hard fact.

Franco's repression – most but not all Catalans backed the defeated republicans in the civil war – fuelled Catalan distrust of Madrid. Lluís Companys, the Catalan president during the civil war, was returned from exile in France in 1940 and shot by the fascists: the only elected head of a European government to have been executed in office.

That dark time for Spain is over. Catalans regained their autonomy in 1980. Their language – banned in public under Franco – is flourishing, its sharp tones a curious staccato descendent of Latin. Varied flavours of nationalist parties dominate the Catalan parliament in Barcelona and use their role as powerbrokers in Madrid to demand favours. Devolution is not total – most controversially it does not allow Catalans to keep their tax revenues as the devolved Basque country does – but nor is it fictitious. Spain, like Britain, is an unstable and imbalanced amalgam, devolved in parts but in theory still loyal to its king.

Why, I asked Catalan politicians, did the politics of national identity trouble them so much? The answer lies partly in the events of last summer when a vast crowd in Barcelona protested at the Madrid constitutional court's rejection of a new Catalan statute of autonomy.

Outrage at this ruling – after the statute had been approved by the Catalan and Spanish parliaments and a referendum – has led mainstream Catalan politicians, once largely opposed to independence, to change their thinking. More than a million Catalans – one in seven – marched under the banner "Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim" – "we are a nation, we decide".

I began my journey last Sunday in Figueres, as joggers on a fun run passed fresh graffiti calling for "independencia". This is the town where the republican parliament sat for one last desperate session in early 1939 as a million civil war refugees fled north from the town on the French border. Now Figueres has acquired a symbol of what should be the collaborative new Spain: a station on the first section of a high-speed rail line that will soon link Paris, Barcelona and Madrid. The sleek trains cutting through the Catalan countryside suggest Europe really could be a continent without borders or political differences.

The reality is different. To find out why I went to the Barcelona offices of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya – a leftist party which wants Catalan independence and until elections last year was part of the Catalan government. This is where I came across that map of the Països Catalans – those old linguistic territories which now run deep into other provinces of Spain and France.

The ERC is anxious to present itself as the pragmatic face of nationalism. Members disassociate themselves from that other, violent, nationalist force inside Spain, in the Basque country. "Here there is no armed movement. Discussion has not been contaminated by the personal experience of people who have been injured," I was told by Pere Aragonès, a young ERC MP.

He was keen to convince me of Catalan moderation. Blame for the independence movement lies in Madrid, he said. "Spain fails to recognise Catalan identity as a part of itself". And growing economic pressures – Catalan resentment of taxes subsidising poorer parts of Spain – mean that "independence is now a rational question, not just one of identity".

But while Aragonès was likeable, his older ERC colleague Josep Huget was more disturbing. His nationalism seemed based on hostility to others. "There is a Spanish tsunami in Catalonia," he claimed – the impact of Madrid's taxes on Catalans in his opinion three times greater each year than the consequences of the disaster in Japan. Huget encapsulated the worst of parochial nationalisms. "I expect people to speak Catalan," he said – absurd in Barcelona, a city of migrants where most citizens do not.

The ERC has overreached itself. Its vote plunged at the last elections. But although polls suggest two-thirds of Catalans do not want independence now, while only a quarter support it, the tide is running against Spain. The ruling centre-right CiU party, long a bastion of Catalonia's post-Franco devolved settlement, is now increasingly sympathetic to a full breakaway. So are some Catalan socialists. Only the rightwing People's party is firmly against.

This is crucial. In the Basque country two centrist parties, the PP and the Spanish socialists, run the devolved government together against a nationalist opposition. But in Catalonia, the major parties are nationalist. No one has an interest in fighting the drift away from Madrid.

How do Catalans feel about this? I phoned Pilar Rahola, a well-known Catalan commentator who once sat in parliament for the ERC but left to write a biography of the current Catalan president, Artur Mas, leader of the CiU. "Catalans are in a phase of perplexity and disenchantment," she told me. "One part of the population are totally pro-independence and the majority, although unhappy with Spain, are slowly evolving towards pro-independence ideas."

The pressure, she said, was growing "because Catalans feel they suffer what is basically burglary, the theft of their economic resources. Spain is taking more than the Catalans are able to give."

On top of that comes a feeling that parties in Madrid are no longer interested in assisting Catalan autonomy. "Spanish parties are the best promoters of Catalan independence," she said. Rahola cites the current Catalan president's stark remark as a sign of what is to come: "Spain is a closed road now."

Certainly there is a casual contempt for Catalans among many Spaniards. Catalans find their accent and their culture mocked. The heir to the Spanish throne is never seen trying to speak Catalan, Basque or Galician. TV3, a Catalan channel, has been blocked from broadcasting in neighbouring Valencia.

But I wonder if the Catalan sense of injustice is not overdone. Catalonia is awash with fast roads, new railways and oversized airports: not a sign Madrid has spent all its money elsewhere. Huget, from the ERC, boasted that without Spain, Catalonia could repay its debts in two years, but there seems be economic ignorance about the consequences of a Catalan walkout from Spain. It is simple for politicians to pretend to voters that all their woes can be blamed on Madrid.

In search of politicians who share my fears I walked though Barcelona's Parc de la Ciutadella, amid palm trees and spring sunshine, to the Catalan parliament, which – tellingly – faces the city zoo. It is a grandiose stone building whose red velvet carpets and uniformed retainers give it the air of a London gentleman's club. It feels no place for a revolution.

In a remote basement office I found Albert Rivera, the young leader of the small Citizens party which has set itself against the nationalist tide. One Catalan dismissed him as "a snake charmer" – a plausible front for the rightwing PP. I found him intelligent and impressive and about the only person I met who admitted to being proud of being both Catalan and Spanish.

Rivera agreed Spain had alienated Catalans but added that nationalist parties were cooking up rows with Madrid to engineer greater resentment. "We are trying to build a border with Spain, not just physical but cultural," he said. "Catalonia is more closed than it was. I don't want to live in Kosovo. I want to be in a powerful region of Spain in a large country in the heart of Europe."

This drift dismays others for whom self-determination is not a priority, such as Dolors Camats of the Green party. "The big parties use the national debate as a curtain to hide other issues," she said. Last week, she tried to stage a debate in parliament on nuclear power after the Japanese disaster. No one was interested.

Across the hall from Rivera's office the clipped Oxford tones of an unusual nationalist are audible. Antoni Strubell is an MP for a small alliance of pro-independence parties. Born in England, his father was a republican exile. Strubell's argument is straightforward. "Catalonia is a nation. Madrid doesn't recognise us as such. No one in Madrid talks about federalism any more." Pressed on the benefits on independence, though, and like most Catalans he seemed vague. "There is a general change to independence worldwide" – Catalonia, like Flanders or Scotland, should break away."

This depressed me. The financial crisis has made Catalans understandably anxious. But there is naivety in wanting to leave Spain to become rich. Members of the public, for the most part, are little involved: turnout in Catalan elections is low. But their politicians are drifting towards a contrived showdown.

"I am disconcerted and pessimistic," said Pilar Rahola – even though she favours independence. After 500 years, it is possible to believe that Spain is on the brink of falling apart – with the pragmatic Catalans, not the rebellious Basques, leading the way to the exit.

[Gaztelu]

I predict this thread will turn into Count Arnau vs. Spain.

[antonio]

The typical foreign "insightful" approach about Catalonian contemporany role into Spain. The most bizarre thing is the way all of them resort to politicians as if politicians were clarivident ones, representatives of Catalonian soul or of something beyond their own posts.

[Comte Arnau]

Interesting article, Loki. It's always nice to see how some find out about those 'non-existent' nations out there. Even if there may be some... inaccuracies. :p



The Catalans have at different times acquired the trappings of independence: a constitution in the 15th century, and a parliament, twice, in the 20th.

Well, the Catalan Parliament is one of the oldest in Europe, going back to the 13th century. That is why our incumbent President is the 129th President of Catalonia.


But for the most part they have thrived or struggled in Spain.

Hmmm, not for the most part. Catalonia has only really been part of Spain since the beginning of the 18th century. What means, in 2014 it will be 300 years of occupation ('derecho de conquista', Castilians called it). From 1469 to 1714, Catalonia was part of 'the Spains', not of Spain. That is, of an Iberian dynastic union, in which each part preserved its customs and rules. As for how long it was not part of either Spain or France... well, from 988 (when the County of Barcelona finally became independent from the Franks) until either 1469 or 1714. That is, of 1023 years, it's been an integral part of Spain for some 290 years (it was French for a few years), and within the Spains for some 245 years.


"I expect people to speak Catalan," he said – absurd in Barcelona, a city of migrants where most citizens do not.

That is not true. Many first-generation immigrants may not speak it, but most citizens can, whether it's their first language or not, because it's the language of teaching at schools.


But I wonder if the Catalan sense of injustice is not overdone. Catalonia is awash with fast roads, new railways and oversized airports: not a sign Madrid has spent all its money elsewhere.

Sure. But I'm afraid he doesn't know the whole truth. Unlike in Spain, most of those 'fast roads' here are toll roads. The oversized airports... it's been decades of squeezing more than 30m passengers per year into an airport designed to take half that amount. Operations for a new terminal started as recently as 2009, allowing to take 55m passengers per year now. Compare it with the enlargements at Madrid's airport... As for railways, lol, the only new railways built in Catalonia for the past 30 years have been the AVE high speed, like 15 years later than expected. And after all these years, Catalonia still has to be connected to standard-gauge Europe!


In search of politicians who share my fears I walked though Barcelona's Parc de la Ciutadella, amid palm trees and spring sunshine, to the Catalan parliament, which – tellingly – faces the city zoo. It is a grandiose stone building whose red velvet carpets and uniformed retainers give it the air of a London gentleman's club. It feels no place for a revolution.

Lol, what did he expect? Does Westminster look like a place for a revolution? And doesn't, say, the London Business School face -tellingly- the London Zoo too? :p


This depressed me. The financial crisis has made Catalans understandably anxious. But there is naivety in wanting to leave Spain to become rich.

He says twice that there is naivety in wanting to leave Spain to become rich. But he doesn't explain why. No naivety, many reports have been done and studies carried out, and the benefits are not only logical, they're quite obvious. Saying a little country can't be rich on its own is like saying that Denmark and Switzerland are failed poor countries that should join Germany...


After 500 years, it is possible to believe that Spain is on the brink of falling apart – with the pragmatic Catalans, not the rebellious Basques, leading the way to the exit.

This is probably the most interesting remark. I have always thought that we Catalans will achieve independence before the Basques, for a number of reasons. But I was always surprised at how people abroad knew something about Basques and their search for independence but anything about the Catalans, probably because there are no armed organizazions here. So it's interesting that some are starting to notice this.


I predict this thread will turn into Count Arnau vs. Spain.

I'm not against Spain. I'm against Spanish inclusive nationalism (pan-Castilianism). Let us be accurate. ;)


The typical foreign "insightful" approach about Catalonian contemporany role into Spain. The most bizarre thing is the way all of them resort to politicians as if politicians were clarivident ones, representatives of Catalonian soul or of something beyond their own posts.

Politicians are not representative of all Catalans, but they are indeed representative of those who voted them to rule the nation.

[Ibericus]

the Spains[/I] for some 245 years.
Before 1469 it was also part of another dyanstic union, the Aragon Crown. The Count of Barcelona was only a small portion of what is today Catalonia, so let's face it, Catalonia has never been an independent nation. It's all a fantasy.

[Comte Arnau]

Before 1469 it was also part of another dyanstic union, the Aragon Crown. The Count of Barcelona was only a small portion of what is today Catalonia, so let's face it, Catalonia has never been an independent nation. It's all a fantasy.

Lol, what the fuck? Following your argument, all nations are a fantasy, as all began by a small portion that later spread.

The Principality of Catalonia, by the way, had already its modern borders defined by the year 1173, when Alfons I the Chaste said in dicta terra mea a Salsis usque ad Dertosam et Ilerdam cum suis finibus (In this land of mine, from Salses to Tortosa and Lleida, with their borders). How many current nations in the world can say that?

[Ibericus]

Lol, what the fuck? Following your argument, all nations are a fantasy, as all began by a small portion that later spread.
But they don't go around lying about their history like catalan nationalism does.


The Principality of Catalonia, by the way, had already its modern borders defined by the year 1173, when Alfons I the Chaste said in dicta terra mea a Salsis usque ad Dertosam et Ilerdam cum suis finibus (In this land of mine, from Salses to Tortosa and Lleida, with their borders). How many current nations in the world can say that?
The principality of Catalonia was a province of Aragon.

[Comte Arnau]

But they don't go around lying about their history like catalan nationalism does.

Lying means not agreeing with your opinion?


The principality of Catalonia was a province of Aragon.

False. The Crown wasn't divided in provinces. The Kings were Kings of Aragon and Counts of Barcelona.

[Don]

I predict this thread will turn into Count Arnau vs. Spain.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gPfXA7JgTxg/S-0saEkTGBI/AAAAAAAAVsE/K_NzD9upxHo/s1600/aburrido.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gPfXA7JgTxg/S-0saEkTGBI/AAAAAAAAVsE/K_NzD9upxHo/s1600/aburrido.jpg

Why do you enter the thread then?

[Ibericus]

Lying means not agreeing with your opinion?
No. Lying means saying Catalonia existed as an independent nation in the past.


False. The Crown wasn't divided in provinces. The Kings were Kings of Aragon and Counts of Barcelona.
I wasn't talking about kings. The Principality of Catalonia was part of Aragon.

[antonio]

I'm not preciselly a big fan of Catalonia behaviour during the last centuries but anycase here's not the point. On the other hand I feel invested of certain autority (for reasons which are not the case) to talk about Medieval Aragon (even I'm not an expert). So let's all know the straight most relevant facts:

1) At XIIth century, Ramiro I the Monk, king of Aragon after the unexpected death of his brother and wanting to resume sooner than later his retirement live, arranged the marriage of his heirness, 2 y.o. infant Petronila with Ramon Berenguer (15 y.o.) , count of Barcelona. Obviously that equated in practice, not to the absortion of Catalonia into Aragon, but to leave Aragon in the wiseful(just by the following course of history) hands of the countal dinasty, which started to rule Aragon as Prince of Aragon when marriage finally take place.

2) At early XVth century, after the consecutive deaths of heir prince and king Martin I, and not knowing exactly which relative should take throne, a phony pseudodemocratic (in practice) elective process was conceived, consisting on the election of nine delegates to vote the next king. And how that delegates had to be elected? Three each by the respective courts of the kingdoms of Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. So, where was the preference of Aragon over the Catalonia? In fact, Aragon was conquered by Castilian troups to enforce Fernando de Trastamara (Castilian bastard dinasty) final election, to the point that the best of the Aragonese nobility convoqued a paralel uncoherced court trying to stop the "desafuero", with no success.

3) Obviously there're other reasons to deny Aragon preeminence over Urgel, Barcelona, etc...counties that finally constituted Catalonia kingdom. But there're more debatable, these one above are not.

[Comte Arnau]

No. Lying means saying Catalonia existed as an independent nation in the past.

This depends on what you consider an independent nation. The Catalans have been independent for most of their history, regardless of the names by which their territory was known.


The Principality of Catalonia was part of Aragon.

Of the Crown of Aragon. Not of the Kingdom of Aragon.

Spain is a part of the European Union, but not a province of it.


consisting on the election of nine delegates to vote the next king. And how that delegates had to be elected? Three each by the respective courts of the kingdoms of Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. So, where was the preference of Aragon over the Catalonia?

Exactly. That proves the level of independence each territory of the Crown had, and that regardless of names, each of them was quite independent because it wasn't a centralised modern state at all.


3) Obviously there're other reasons to deny Aragon preeminence over Urgel, Barcelona, etc...counties that finally constituted Catalonia kingdom. But there're more debatable, these one above are not.

The Aragonese language got highly influenced by Catalan between 1150 and 1450, while it didn't happen the other way round, except for obvious reasons in bordering areas and Valencia. This shows the preeminence effectively was in the eastern shores, in spite that Aragon was THE kingdom and that Saragossa was a sort of political seat.

[Ibericus]

This depends on what you consider an independent nation. The Catalans have been independent for most of their history, regardless of the names by which their territory was known.
The Catalonia as we know today has existed only since 1978. The Principality of Catalonia was part of Aragon. The County of Barcelona was not even Catalonia and was less than half of today's territory, so no, catalans have never been an "independent nation". Always been part of something else : From the Tarraconensis, to Marca Hispánica, to Aragon, and now Spain, and Im not talking merely about 'names' but territories. Other countries have also been like this ? Yes, but the difference is that they don't lie about their history saying they have been independent for most of their hisotry.

[Amapola]

http://www.libremercado.com/2011-04-04/madrid-ya-supera-a-cataluna-en-casi-todos-los-indicadores-economicos-1276419259/
En apenas tres lustros la Comunidad de Madrid se ha puesto a la cabeza de España en casi todos los indicadores económicos en lo que se conoce como el "milagro madrileño". A pesar de que continúa siendo la tercera comunidad más poblada de país, es ya la primera en muchos de los índices, incluido el más importante de todos ellos: el del Producto Interior Bruto.

El sorpasso se produjo hace dos años, en 2009, cuando, por primera vez en la historia, la Comunidad de Madrid adelantó a Cataluña, tradicionalmente la región más rica y productiva de España. Los seis millones y medio de madrileños producen más que los siete millones y medio de catalanes, de modo que la renta per cápita de los primeros es sensiblemente más alta.

[Comte Arnau]

The Catalonia as we know today has existed only since 1978.

Lol. Same thing for the Spain we know today: it's from 1978. No Cuba, no Guinea, no Sahara.


The Principality of Catalonia was part of Aragon. The County of Barcelona was not even Catalonia and was less than half of today's territory, so no, catalans have never been an "independent nation". Always been part of something else : From the Tarraconensis, to Marca Hispánica, to Aragon, and now Spain, and Im not talking merely about 'names' but territories. Other countries have also been like this ? Yes, but the difference is that they don't lie about their history saying they have been independent for most of their hisotry.

Ok, you're just repeating your learned speech again. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


http://www.libremercado.com/2011-04-04/madrid-ya-supera-a-cataluna-en-casi-todos-los-indicadores-economicos-1276419259/
En apenas tres lustros la Comunidad de Madrid se ha puesto a la cabeza de España en casi todos los indicadores económicos en lo que se conoce como el "milagro madrileño". A pesar de que continúa siendo la tercera comunidad más poblada de país, es ya la primera en muchos de los índices, incluido el más importante de todos ellos: el del Producto Interior Bruto.

El sorpasso se produjo hace dos años, en 2009, cuando, por primera vez en la historia, la Comunidad de Madrid adelantó a Cataluña, tradicionalmente la región más rica y productiva de España. Los seis millones y medio de madrileños producen más que los siete millones y medio de catalanes, de modo que la renta per cápita de los primeros es sensiblemente más alta.

No es de extrañar, lol.

[Ibericus]

Lol. Same thing for the Spain we know today: it's from 1978. No Cuba, no Guinea, no Sahara.
Spain in 1978 ? lol that's a good one..

[Comte Arnau]

Spain in 1978 ? lol that's a good one..

As ridiculous as your Catalonia from 1978.

I just followed your argument. Modern Spain was born in 1978, as the territory, political system and Constitution are different from those in 1970.

[Alvarado]

http://www.libremercado.com/2011-04-04/madrid-ya-supera-a-cataluna-en-casi-todos-los-indicadores-economicos-1276419259/
En apenas tres lustros la Comunidad de Madrid se ha puesto a la cabeza de España en casi todos los indicadores económicos en lo que se conoce como el "milagro madrileño". A pesar de que continúa siendo la tercera comunidad más poblada de país, es ya la primera en muchos de los índices, incluido el más importante de todos ellos: el del Producto Interior Bruto.

El sorpasso se produjo hace dos años, en 2009, cuando, por primera vez en la historia, la Comunidad de Madrid adelantó a Cataluña, tradicionalmente la región más rica y productiva de España. Los seis millones y medio de madrileños producen más que los siete millones y medio de catalanes, de modo que la renta per cápita de los primeros es sensiblemente más alta.

Desconozco como está la situación por Madrid (sospecho que bastante mal), pero en Cataluña se ha llegado a un punto de no retorno. La zona que rodea Barcelona es un pozo infecto del que no se puede sacar nada bueno.

En mi opinión, el resto de los españoles saldría ganando con la independencia de Cataluña.

CATALONIA IS NOT SPAIN.

http://www.directe.cat/imatges/puntdemira/negre-catala.jpg
http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundo/imagenes/2010/11/15/barcelona/1289853241_0.jpghttp://noticias.terra.es/genteycultura/2009/1223/fotos-media/los-inmigrantes-que-abandonan-cataluna-aumentan-un-205-por-la-crisis$304x228.jpghttp://davidgarriga.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gran_inmigrantes_catalanes.jpg?w=300&h=149

[Comte Arnau]

Lol. Change the picture from time to time or people will start thinking there's only one black guy in Catalonia. :D

[Monolith]

What about the national sentiment in Catalonia? Would the people opt for independence if you guys held a referendum, like tomorrow?

[Alvarado]

Lol. Change the picture from time to time or people will start thinking there's only one black guy in Catalonia. :D

For you.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3QOwtvjBIDE/TITCoa9BeWI/AAAAAAAADlM/QK51vjKPFLA/s1600/nino_senyera.jpg

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/catalan-inmigrante.jpg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundo/imagenes/2011/03/15/barcelona/1300198138_0.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CT8KkdhIgQQ/TRz55giLioI/AAAAAAAAAnA/jD6Ng7zM6UE/s1600/20101117%2BEls%2BAfricans%2Bde%2BCatalunya.jpg

[Lábaru]

Lol. Change the picture from time to time or people will start thinking there's only one black guy in Catalonia. :D

There are many pictures of black Catalans.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YSa_Z3cGwl0/SIIasQCTpPI/AAAAAAAAAMg/k3y1CwQTWhc/s400/catala_llengua_comuna.jpg

http://rcstatic.cat/img/5800/catala-llengua-comuna-2009_91.jpeg

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundo/imagenes/2010/11/15/barcelona/1289853241_0.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8quYAl6S0Kg/R-1-qmFMIwI/AAAAAAAACvc/4bUtva6AQa8/s400/IMMI+CAT.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-elNyyhlHOTc/TZV5T-mfyZI/AAAAAAAAAls/SgHjIO5IEnU/s1600/catalan-inmigrante-300x262.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WxffsgvdLrI/SrjtHkr8S6I/AAAAAAAAGIM/_iuLRlNvhns/s400/diada2.jpg

http://www.directe.cat/imatges/catala-llengua-comuna.jpg

http://www.rtve.es/imagenes/cataluna-se-firmado-pacto-sobre-inmigracion-recoge-catalan-como-lengua-acogida/1229719063627.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

Lol. You should really search for new pictures. I'm sure Lábaru already has all those Catalan blacks in his erotic files folder.



En mi opinión, el resto de los españoles saldría ganando con la independencia de Cataluña.


Both Spaniards and Catalans would win with the secession. That is why I don't understand why so many Spaniards are against it.

[Don]

What about the national sentiment in Catalonia? Would the people opt for independence if you guys held a referendum, like tomorrow?

Even with the help of the hordes of their friends, muslims, sudacas and negros, most of them,as we all know, anti-spaniards/anti-european (they love to break european nations), the independentist movements can not even reach the 50%.

Probably in 20 years, these invader allies, due to their reproduction rate, could reach the 51%, with the help of the predictable fact that many spaniards (catalans or not) would simply flee from that infamous place to Spain, and Catalonia could be, finally, the most non-european nation of Europe...

... and probably, Islamic.

Hey, but at least wont be Spain, the main obsession for these sick independentists.

It will be just a chaotic dunghill of mongrels, as is already noticeable today, being Barcelona the most infamous, Islamic, violent, dangerous and corrupted place in Spain.

It will be a dramatic and alive Lesson for the other european regions to know wich is the Wrong Path. :)




Cría cuervos.

[Alvarado]

Both Spaniards and Catalans would win with the secession. That is why I don't understand why so many Spaniards are against it.

No, Catalans will disappear soon, with or without secession.

[antonio]

This depends on what you consider an independent nation. The Catalans have been independent for most of their history, regardless of the names by which their territory was known.



Of the Crown of Aragon. Not of the Kingdom of Aragon.

Spain is a part of the European Union, but not a province of it.



Exactly. That proves the level of independence each territory of the Crown had, and that regardless of names, each of them was quite independent because it wasn't a centralised modern state at all.



The Aragonese language got highly influenced by Catalan between 1150 and 1450, while it didn't happen the other way round, except for obvious reasons in bordering areas and Valencia. This shows the preeminence effectively was in the eastern shores, in spite that Aragon was THE kingdom and that Saragossa was a sort of political seat.

It's the problem of take names too much literally. A case similar was kingdom of Leon, we cannot seriously say that Galicia was ever subordinated to Leon, basically because city of Leon itself was part of historical Gallaecia, kings native language was GalicianPortuguese, etc, etc...

It's also really bizarre to check Aragonese people from Barbastro or Monzón putting down Catalonia for had being just part of Aragonese kingdom...when (if their ancestors were around here as mine were) they were at first instance subdits of Sobrarbe and Ribagorza counties, so sharing "subordinate" status at respect to mine with their Catalonian enemies. :D

[antonio]

Dont be so catastrophist, Don! Nowadays the cohesion identitarian force in Catalonia spins almost completelly around a capitalistic hearthless cup-monopolistic football team called FCB. To the point that even for Popular Party spineless borrego candidates, confessing a preference for Español or (even worse) Real Madrid, is probably banned by electoral strategas because they regard it probably like an Israeli candidate expressing a taste for men in SS uniforms.:D

[Comte Arnau]

No, Catalans will disappear soon, with or without secession.

Sure. That's what invading Spaniards thought too in the 1710's.

Érem, som i serem.

[Comte Arnau]

What about the national sentiment in Catalonia? Would the people opt for independence if you guys held a referendum, like tomorrow?

It's difficult to say. The majority is nationalist, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are pro-independence. There is about 25% clearly pro-independence, about 15% clearly against it, and a wide range of people who would rather hesitate or not vote. The fact is, though, that independentism has been clearly on the rise in the last 15 years, and some recent surveys indicate that the 50% might have been reached. The thing is, these referendums are forbidden by the Spanish Constitution, so all we can do is non-official guesses.

[Lábaru]

http://www.extraconfidencial.com/archivos2/inmigracion_catalun.jpg

Más actualizado.

El resultado da un total de 1 .241.522 personas extranjeras empadronadas en Cataluña, el 16,4% (dos décimas menos que en julio de 2009) del conjunto de la población, que se mantiene ligeramente por encima de los siete millones y medio de habitantes.

Aumentan principalmente Pakistán (3635 personas), Marruecos (2464) y Honduras (1580).

[Comte Arnau]

The largest amount of immigrants are missing in those stats.

[Alvarado]

http://www.extraconfidencial.com/archivos2/inmigracion_catalun.jpg

Más actualizado.

El resultado da un total de 1 .241.522 personas extranjeras empadronadas en Cataluña, el 16,4% (dos décimas menos que en julio de 2009) del conjunto de la población, que se mantiene ligeramente por encima de los siete millones y medio de habitantes.

Aumentan principalmente Pakistán (3635 personas), Marruecos (2464) y Honduras (1580).

Barcelona needs our help.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hQgadG27_Js/TPkMWVZ7R2I/AAAAAAAAO8s/AXa1ypauEek/s640/Barcelona.Montjuic.Bombardeo.1842.detalle.jpeg

[Don]

Barcelona needs our help.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hQgadG27_Js/TPkMWVZ7R2I/AAAAAAAAO8s/AXa1ypauEek/s640/Barcelona.Montjuic.Bombardeo.1842.detalle.jpeg

:p

Bombing these zones near sea under montjuic, would, for sure, cause today a majority of invader victims (from the worst quality and the most harmful ones), mainly muslims from morocco and paquistan, negros and negra prostitutes followed by sudacas and the targets of all them: guiri tourists.

Sadly for independentists, with them would go to the graveyard many pro-independency votes from these "new catalans", the big allies of them.

http://www.webislam.com/media/image/2009/11/gran_detenidos-raval(1).jpg

http://www.milloremcatalunya.cat/images/massmedia/raval_1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SL2FjUfpzic/TKgDrZJKAGI/AAAAAAAAAw8/2D47HaS7rBA/s400/imagesCAZKVZ34.jpg

http://www.hoy.es/RC/201012/01/Media/raval--647x231.JPG

http://www.webislam.com/media/image/2009/11/gran_mezquita-tariq-ibn-ziad_Juicio_Raval.jpg


The lost of locals, Spaniards, would be minimal, mainly Police Agents that would be previously extracted.

Doy mi visto bueno a la operación, una limpieza a fuego de un auténtico nido de ratas.

[Alvarado]

:p

Bombing these zones near sea under montjuic, would, for sure, cause today a majority of invader victims (from the worst quality and the most harmful ones), mainly muslims from morocco and paquistan, negros and negra prostitutes followed by sudacas and the targets of all them: guiri tourists.

The lost of locals, Spaniards, would be minimal.

Doy mi visto bueno a la operación. :rolleyes2:

That's exactly what we need.

[Lábaru]

Why? these blacks and sudacas can learn the Catalan language, the Castillians are the villains of the film. The language is all that matters, eso y prohibir los toros y obligar a desayunar tostadas con tomate.

[Comte Arnau]

Lol. It's so funny watching your rage vented here and how you, as any good Spaniard, would like to bomb Barcelona every 50 years... :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Castilla libre del yugo de España!

[Comte Arnau]

^ Lol.

But there are Castilian independentists too, indeeed.

[Alvarado]

Lol. It's so funny watching your rage vented here and how you, as any good Spaniard, would like to bomb Barcelona every 50 years... :D

Oh, not only "Spaniards" like to bomb Barcelona.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/49/586449/1/111216152.7IhAOaxp.prim.jpg

[Lábaru]

Oh, not only "Spaniards" like to bomb Barcelona.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/49/586449/1/111216152.7IhAOaxp.prim.jpg

True, the Spanish just kidding about this, in other way some other friends of ibex are enthusiastic in planting bombs in Barcelona.


http://www.lavanguardia.es/politica/noticias/20100909/53999492662/un-foro-yihadista-propone-atentar-en-barcelona-el-24-de-septiembre-qaeda-al-qaeda-amin-vila-olimpica.html


http://www.abc.es/20101215/espana/atentado-contra-metro-barcelona-201012141829.html

[Matritensis]

The largest amount of immigrants are missing in those stats.


Those "immigrants",and their ancestors have lived in Catalonia before you and idiots like you were born.Pedazo de subnormal...

[Alvarado]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Detailing/Stickers/Popcorn_smiley.jpg

[Gaztelu]

Castilla libre del yugo de España!

LOL, Yugohispania

[Comte Arnau]

Those "immigrants",and their ancestors have lived in Catalonia before you and idiots like you were born.Pedazo de subnormal...

Siguiendo tu argumento, considerarás también catalán a un negro que lleve aquí un par de generaciones...

Eras uno de los pocos españoles en el foro que me merecían cierto respeto, pero está claro que tarde o temprano se le acaban viendo las orejas al cerdo. Mejor para todos.

[Don]

Siguiendo tu argumento, considerarás también catalán a un negro que lleve aquí un par de generaciones...

Eras uno de los pocos españoles en el foro que me merecían cierto respeto, pero está claro que tarde o temprano se le acaban viendo las orejas al cerdo. Mejor para todos.

No eres consciente que es tu postura la problemática.

Que sois vosotros, hoy, esos "fascistas" que tanto en la boca tenéis para intentar, ya en vano, seguir haciendo gala de ese disfraz de victimismo que, sin ser conscientes, tenéis ya hecho harapos irreconocibles a causa de vuestros propios actos, que desvelan vuestro auténtico aspecto penosamente infame, fanático y dañino.

Mucho me temo que la mayor parte de la gente normal y racional son cerdos, a vuestros ojos, como lo somos por defecto todos los "malvados" españoles.


NOTA:
Y os recuerdo que cuando hablamos de "vosotros" no hablamos de los catalanes, , mal que os pese, sino de esa minoritaria lacra que tanto daño está haciendo y más hará a los catalanes en primer lugar y al RESTO de los españoles en segundo.

[Ibericus]

Siguiendo tu argumento, considerarás también catalán a un negro que lleve aquí un par de generaciones....
Te suenan una gente que se llamaban íberos ? Si, que estaban por lo que hoy es Andalucia, Levante o Cataluña, desde tiempos muy remotos. Asi que de immigrantes NADA.

[Comte Arnau]

No eres consciente que es tu postura la problemática.

En este foro, desde luego. Es lo que tiene no ir con las mayorías, que es lo fácil.


Mucho me temo que la mayor parte de la gente normal y racional son cerdos, a vuestros ojos, como lo somos por defecto todos los "malvados" españoles.


NOTA:
Y os recuerdo que cuando hablamos de "vosotros" no hablamos de los catalanes, , mal que os pese, sino de esa minoritaria lacra que tanto daño está haciendo y más hará a los catalanes en primer lugar y al RESTO de los españoles en segundo.

Claro. Y que conste que yo con lo de cerdo no me refiero a todos los españoles, sólo a los de vuestra catalanofóbica calaña.


Te suenan una gente que se llamaban íberos ? Si, que estaban por lo que hoy es Andalucia, Levante o Cataluña, desde tiempos muy remotos. Asi que de immigrantes NADA.

Me suenan, me suenan. Desaparecieron hace casi dos mil años, nada menos.

[Ibericus]

Me suenan, me suenan. Desaparecieron hace casi dos mil años, nada menos.
No desaparecieron, somos sus descendientes.

[Comte Arnau]

Sois tan ingenuos que rozáis lo ridículo. Anda que si retrocedieras dos mil quinientos años te ibas a sentir muy identificado con ellos. Vivir para oír.

[Ibericus]

Sois tan ingenuos que rozáis lo ridículo. Anda que si retrocedieras dos mil quinientos años te ibas a sentir muy identificado con ellos. Vivir para oír.
No se trata de sentirse identificados, puestos que somos nosotros mismos, se trata que son nuestros antepasados, quienes fuimos, y por tanto no puedes hablar de "immigrantes" a gente que lleva en tu tierra desde hace miles de años.

[Lábaru]

Me suenan, me suenan. Desaparecieron hace casi dos mil años, nada menos.

Sin duda si de ti y otros como tú dependiera hubiéramos desaparecido, siempre amigo de los extranjeros y enemigo de los tuyos, aunque ahora que lo pienso ¿eres ibérico? probablemente desciendas de moros, fenicios o griegos o incluso judíos, te comportas como ellos y te apasiona su compañía siempre y cuando te hablen en catalán.

[Comte Arnau]

No se trata de sentirse identificados, puestos que somos nosotros mismos, se trata que son nuestros antepasados, quienes fuimos, y por tanto no puedes hablar de "immigrantes" a gente que lleva en tu tierra desde hace miles de años.

Como si tú supieras irrefutablemente que desciendes en línea directa de alguna tribu íbera, y no de la semilla de algún romano o franco o a saber... :rolleyes:

Y de nosotros mismos, nada. A no ser que creas que etnia e identidad se basan exclusivamente en una combinación meramente biológica.

[Ibericus]

Como si tú supieras irrefutablemente que desciendes en línea directa de alguna tribu íbera, y no de la semilla de algún romano o franco o a saber... :rolleyes:
Pues si, si que lo se, por que está genéticamente demostrado. Por ejemplo se hizo un estudio genético en restos íberos de Ullastret y su perfil genético se correspondia con el de los españoles actuales. Por otra parte los marcadores genéticos maternos más comunes en Iberia tienen su origen en el refugio franco-cantábrico. Además tenemos muchos antepasados, haz las cuentas.

Y de nosotros mismos, nada. A no ser que creas que etnia e identidad se basan exclusivamente en una combinación meramente biológica.
Yo no he hablado en ningun momento de identidades, simplemente un hecho objetivo y demostrable, y es que los íberos, no desaparecieron, sus descendientes estamos hoy aqui todavia.

[Comte Arnau]

Pues si, si que lo se, por que está genéticamente demostrado. Por ejemplo se hizo un estudio genético en restos íberos de Ullastret y su perfil genético se correspondia con el de los españoles actuales. Por otra parte los marcadores genéticos maternos más comunes en Iberia tienen su origen en el refugio franco-cantábrico. Además tenemos muchos antepasados, haz las cuentas.

Yo no he hablado en ningun momento de identidades, simplemente un hecho objetivo y demostrable, y es que los íberos, no desaparecieron, sus descendientes estamos hoy aqui todavia.

Los íberos desaparecieron porque no eran una raza biológica, sino una etnia. Y como todas las etnias, surgen y mueren, por mucho que la cadena genética se transmita. A ver si ahora va a resultar que los íberos no tuvieron antecedentes y surgieron de la nada, hijos de Túbal...

[Ibericus]

Los íberos desaparecieron porque no eran una raza biológica, sino una etnia.
Efectivamente no eran una raza biológica, eran Robots.:rolleyes:


Y como todas las etnias, surgen y mueren, por mucho que la cadena genética se transmita.
No murieron. La cultura también se transmite de generación en generación, la mentalidad, la forma de ser, tradiciones y costumbres pre-romanas. Paganismo, etc.


A ver si ahora va a resultar que los íberos no tuvieron antecedentes y surgieron de la nada, hijos de Túbal...
Claro, fueron descendientes de los primeros pobladores de Europa.

[antonio]

Pues para mí los de Estopa o la Carma Chacón no son catalanes, aunque, lamentablemente, no pueda negar que son españoles.

[Alvarado]

Pues para mí los de Estopa o la Carma Chacón no son catalanes, aunque, lamentablemente, no pueda negar que son españoles.

¿Entonces los únicos charnegos que pueden ser considerados catalanes son los independentistas, o cómo funciona esto?

[antonio]

¿Entonces los únicos charnegos que pueden ser considerados catalanes son los independentistas, o como funciona esto?

A mi que sean indepes o aixenetas, es que me suda la... Entre otras cosas porque yo no nací en Aragón ni mi padre es aragonés, así que, por vuestra regla de tres, yo, descendiente de gentes asociadas a este reino desde su nacimiento, soy menos aragonés que el tío que pasa con el coche tuneado nieto de ex-trabajadores del cortijo X del señorito Y. Vamos, no me jodas!

Ps. Claro que, a buen seguro, el del ejemplo se tendría por más aragonés que yo: y es que la ignorancia es muy atrevida.

[Comte Arnau]

¿Entonces los únicos charnegos que pueden ser considerados catalanes son los independentistas, o cómo funciona esto?

No. Los negros también. Eso ya lo sabéis, puesto que según vuestras estadísticas, negros y moros suponen el 92% del voto independentista.

[Alvarado]

A mi que sean indepes o aixenetas, es que me suda la... Entre otras cosas porque yo no nací en Aragón ni mi padre es aragonés, así que, por vuestra regla de tres, yo, descendiente de gentes asociadas a este reino desde su nacimiento, soy menos aragonés que el tío que pasa con el coche tuneado nieto de ex-trabajadores del cortijo X del señorito Y. Vamos, no me jodas!

Ps. Claro que, a buen seguro, el del ejemplo se tendría por más aragonés que yo: y es que la ignorancia es muy atrevida.

En todo caso, esa regla de tres es la de los independentistas que creen que "Catalán es todo aquel que vive y trabaja en Cataluña".


No. Los negros también. Eso ya lo sabéis, puesto que según vuestras estadísticas, negros y moros suponen el 92% del voto independentista.

Esas "estadísticas" son una bazofia. La mayoría del voto independentista proviene de los catalanes "puros", gente como mi familia. Nadie puede discutir eso.

[Don]

Los íberos conformaron gran parte de nuestro sustrato actual, tanto cultural como genético, cientos de generaciones.

Cuando se dice que somos hijos de los celtíberos, no es cosa baladí. Somos lo que somos sobre todo por esos pueblos.


Y aquí hablando de UN PAÍS IMAGINARIO y más falso que un duro de cuatro pesetas.

Es surrealista que se hable tanto de algo que ni si quiera existe.

[Comte Arnau]

Esas "estadísticas" son una bazofia. La mayoría del voto independentista proviene de los catalanes "puros", gente como familia. Nadie puede discutir eso.

Esto díselo a tus cofrades.


Los íberos conformaron gran parte de nuestro sustrato actual, tanto cultural como genético, cientos de generaciones.

Cuando se dice que somos hijos de los celtíberos, no es cosa baladí. Somos lo que somos sobre todo por esos pueblos.


Y aquí hablando de UN PAÍS IMAGINARIO y más falso que un duro de cuatro pesetas.

Es surrealista que se hable tanto de algo que ni si quiera existe.

Que sí. Que los catalanes no existen y los íberos sí. Larga vida a la Tierra Media.

[Don]

Que sí. Que los catalanes no existen y los íberos sí. Larga vida a la Tierra Media.

¡Con dos cojones! Ninguneando la génesis de los actuales Españoles, nuestros pueblos sustrato.

Dí que sí, que donde esté una buena barretina, que se quiten falcatitas, cultos mágicos y tradiciones casposas enraizadas en el orígen de la historia de nuestros antepasados.

Donde no hay, no hay.

[Comte Arnau]

¡Con dos cojones! Ninguneando la génesis de los actuales Españoles, nuestros pueblos sustrato.

Dí que sí, que donde esté una buena barretina, que se quiten falcatitas, cultos mágicos y tradiciones casposas enraizadas en el orígen de la historia de nuestros antepasados.

Donde no hay, no hay.

Yo soy un apasionado de la cultura íbera, no intentes aleccionarme que saldrías perdiendo. Precisamente por eso no soy tan gilipollas de decir que los íberos siguen vivos entre nosotros.

[Lábaru]

no soy tan gilipollas de decir que los íberos siguen vivos entre nosotros.

Tú nunca serías tan gilipollas, es cierto. Los que sí están vivos son el millón de extranjeros en Barcelona más los ilegales que pueden ser perfectamente otros cientos de miles, mira que vivos están :)


16.000 inmigrantes empadronados en un piso de la avenida Meridiana de Barcelona
Posted on 10 marzo, 2010 by admin

Ustedes pensaban que ya se había visto de todo en materia de inmigración, pero no es así. Ayer, el portavoz de CiU en el Congreso de los Diputados, Durán Lleida, pedía dotar a los ayuntamientos de instrumentos jurídicos y fondos económicos para financiar las políticas de integración de los inmigrantes en los municipios, y decía:


Usted debe saber, como yo, que en Barcelona, en un momento dado, ha habido 16.000-17.000 inmigrantes inscritos en un solo domicilio en la avenida Meridiana, que después se han repartido en domicilios distintos de distritos de Barcelona, pero siempre sociales”.

Disfrútalos e intégralos, con o sin barretina, al gusto.

http://www.minutodigital.com/noticias/2010/03/10/16-000-inmigrantes-empadronados-en-un-piso-de-la-avenida-meridiana-de-barcelona/

[Alvarado]

Disfrútalos e intégralos, con o sin barretina, al gusto.


Mejor con barretina.

http://shambalah.com/images/obama-barretina.jpg

[Lábaru]

Don, Iberia, tenéis que haceros cuenta de la manera de razonar del soldado Ibex, para Ibex, al cual no podemos aleccionar por que ya lo sabe todo y saldríamos perdiendo, los Íberos no están conectados con los españoles, para nada, el día y la noche, tenemos la misma relación con los manatís de agua que con los Íberos pues el idioma que hablaban está muerto ¿entendéis? en cambio sí que tenemos relación con un negro africano que viene y aprende el catalán, eso sí, por que el idioma lo es todo, solo el idioma importa, la sangre, la genética, el ser descendiente de tal o Pascual no significa nada, solo el idioma importa.

¿Verdad Ibex? ¿verdad que un somalí que hable catalán está más relacionado contigo que los descendientes de íberos que no hablen catalán?. Es más, si Ibex tuviera un gemelo que no hablara catalán, el mencionado gemelo estaría menos relacionado con Ibex que el citado somalí catalanoparlante, cuanto más catalanoparlanchín más pegadito lo quiere Ibex, que no corra el aire ¿eh, Don sabiondo?

Perdona que te hable como si fueras idiota, no es mi intención, se llama adaptación al diálogo de besugos que siempre sueltas, a tu aburrida y cansina cantinela.

[Ibericus]

Lo gracioso de esta situación es que en cualquier pais del África negra nunca nos consdierarian como uno de los suyos, por mucho que aprendiesemos sus dialectos locales. Lo mismo pasa con los japoneses, siempre nos verian como gaijins. Parece (para algunos) como si sólo los europeos debamos tener esta estúpida mentalidad de considerar lo ajeno como propio.

[Alvarado]

Lo gracioso de esta situación es que en cualquier pais del África negra nunca nos consdierarian como uno de los suyos, por mucho que aprendiesemos sus dialectos locales. Lo mismo pasa con los japoneses, siempre nos verian como gaijins. Parece (para algunos) como si sólo los europeos debamos tener esta estúpida mentalidad de considerar lo ajeno como propio.

Más razón que un santo, oiga.

[Don]

Más razón que un santo, oiga.

Sin duda, caballero, Iberia acierta de pleno.

Mas no me encuentro yo entre esos gilipollas masocas y ridículos que a nosotros (y a nuestros antepasados), como buenos preservadores y defensores de nuestros legados, nos causan repugnancia por ser poco más que traidores estúpidos, y a los invasores causan risa y regocijo, pues son el punto débil, el flanco enfermizo por el que jodernos.

Que purgaza necesita esta tierra.

[Comte Arnau]

Perdona que te hable como si fueras idiota, no es mi intención, se llama adaptación al diálogo de besugos que siempre sueltas,

Adaptación la hace quien puede pasar de un nivel al otro. En tu caso es mera incapacidad, por lo que no espero otro nivel de comentarios por tu parte.


Lo gracioso de esta situación es que en cualquier pais del África negra nunca nos consdierarian como uno de los suyos, por mucho que aprendiesemos sus dialectos locales. Lo mismo pasa con los japoneses, siempre nos verian como gaijins. Parece (para algunos) como si sólo los europeos debamos tener esta estúpida mentalidad de considerar lo ajeno como propio.

Como si no hubiera también quien distingue a los catalans de la ceba o catalans de soca-rel del resto de ciudadanos catalanes. Otra cosa es que lo callen porque eso se considere nazi socialmente.